So you want Narron fired...

[Screwball]

I just got done reading through the game thread, and like many others when the Reds lose, there were quite a few people calling for Narron to be canned. Most any move he makes results in people calling him a moron, idiot or some variation of the like. So my question is this: If Narron was to be fired tomorrow (like many on here want to happen), who would you replace him with? Who is out there, either in the minor league system or curerntly unemoployed, that A.)would do a better job in steering this team to more victories via his managerial moves, and B.) realistically could be lured/promoted to coach for the small market Reds?

NOTE: Keep in mind, this thread isn't intended to simply call out those that want Narron fired (well, maybe a little bit). I really am curious as to who people think could replace Jerry Narron and do a superior job with the players he has been given.

[guttle11]

It doesn't matter who they would replace him with. To sit on your hands is season suicide. Be proactive.

[keeganbrick]

Me or Billy Hatcher. I already said I'd do it for 30k.

[Yachtzee]

Wasn't in the game thread tonight and haven't called for his firing, but if the Reds were in the market, I've always liked what I've heard from Larry Dierker.

[WVPacman]

Narron,has made some mistakes this season without a doubt.Frankly I thought he should have left Coffey in the game tonight b/c he was pitching well.The main thing that makes me mad is it seems the players don't husle for him.First it was EE when he did'nt run to first... Then it was Dunn in the outfield not hustling to the ball,Then it was Griffey at the plate posing instead of running.Then it was Griffey again tonight in the outfield loafing not hustling to the ball.Seems like im forgetting about another player??

Anyways who was the only person that got punished?? EE right?? What im trying to say is this is showing me that these players knows they can loaf and not husle b/c Narron isn't going to say nothing.When a team of ballplayers don't husle in everygame then thats telling me that Narron can't control his team b/c they won't listen and thats Narrons fault b/c he won't speak up.

[Screwball]

Wasn't in the game thread tonight and haven't called for his firing, but if the Reds were in the market, I've always liked what I've heard from Larry Dierker.

Larry Dierker is an interesting candidate. Former manager of the year, career .556 winning percentage as mngr., and he used to be a pretty good pitcher. I guess my questions are, would he be able to get guys to hit with RISP, keep the bullpen from 8th inning meltdowns, or prevent the defense from making costly errors?

[TOBTTReds]

Although I would love to see him fired from a fans perspective, I think the players might revolt. They know it isn't his fault. Today was a "veteran" that blew the game. They also like him a lot.

Who would I hire? No clue.

[WVPacman]

If Narron would ever get fired thenI would like to see Mcclenden come here and be the manager.When he was manager with the Pirates he said what was on his mind,would jerk a pitcher or player out when they was'nt doing nothing.

The players really respected him to and loved playing for him.

[Caveat Emperor]

Given the current roster make up and players available in Triple-A, I feel safe saying that I can't name a single manager, alive or dead, that would have this team any better than .500 +/- 1 game.

This bullpen isn't very talented and this lineup isn't very consistent. I don't care how good Hamilton is (and he is pretty damn good) -- when you've got a Rule V guy as an everyday player, that speaks volumes about the state of your franchise.

[OldRightHander]

If Narron would ever get fired thenI would like to see Mcclenden come here and be the manager.When he was manager with the Pirates he said what was on his mind,would jerk a pitcher or player out when they was'nt doing nothing.

The players really respected him to and loved playing for him.

And the Pirates won the same number of championships under him as the Reds have under Narron.

[RedsMan3203]

And after tonight, after seeing that display in the game threads I have this to say...

I hope the powers to be - sit down and have a long hard chat about this subject... Because the game threads have gone to hell and back... Ban the threads... Its getting worse by the game.

[WVRedsFan]

The funny thing about managers is there are more good ones than there are bad ones. Look around the NL Central for instance.

We all know about Tony LaRussa's 1649 wins and Lou's 1531 wins. But the Pirate's Jim Tracy is 519-506, and Houston's Phil Garner is 231-194. All have had multiple winning seasons. Bringing up the rear ae Ned Yost at 309-365 and Jerry Narron at 273-304.

Go to the rest of the league and you find Atlanta's Bobby Cox at 1521 wins with only 1204 losses, but you also have New York's Willie Randolph at 180-144, LA's Grady Little at 293-221, and Philadelphia's Charlie Manuel at 405-357. Joining Narron as losing managers are SF's Bruce Bochy at 965-987 and Arizona's Bob Melvin at 325-352. So in the NL, we have 8 winners and 4 losers. But even Yost, Bochy, and Melvin have had winning seasons. Florida's Gonzalez has only been at the helm this year with a 13-14 record.

Looking at those who win and those who lose, it's obvious (with the notable exception of Tracy and Sweet Lou, who are in a horrible situation where they are), these guys are winners. Our guy has never won. Anywhere.

Some guys are born winners. They seem to make the right moves on instinct. Witness LaRussa in last year's World Series or Bobby Cox for a career. Sure talent helps, but no one can say this Reds team and others are not talented. They're maybe not as talented as some, but the talent warrants a winning record, barely. And yet we do not. Jerry Narron cannot make the right move to save himself. He's the typical second man--the bench coach is the office he's best suited for. He's followed the same kind of men who fit his profile--Bob Boone and Dave Miley were similar in style and had the same characteristic. They just didn't have that instinct that won their team a game they should have won.

If this team is to be a contender, a real contender, a move at the top must be made. But we are tied by financial constraints and men at the top whether it be Lindner or Castilini or O'Brien or Krivsky who embrace mediocrity because of financial concerns. We're never going to spend that $4-5 million for a manager. And so it goes. But don't tell me that our manager is bad because of the players he has. I've seen too many winners mold a team with as much talent as the Reds have. We don't have a winner, but we have one with an extension to next year and probably another one after that.

[Yachtzee]

Larry Dierker is an interesting candidate. Former manager of the year, career .556 winning percentage as mngr., and he used to be a pretty good pitcher. I guess my questions are, would he be able to get guys to hit with RISP, keep the bullpen from 8th inning meltdowns, or prevent the defense from making costly errors?

All I ask is that the manager know the hand he's been dealt and use his players in a manner that puts them in the best position to succeed. From what I've heard, Dierker is someone who would try to do that.

[WVRedsFan]

All I ask is that the manager know the hand he's been dealt and use his players in a manner that puts them in the best position to succeed. From what I've heard, Dierker is someone who would try to do that.

Yes, yes. My point exactly. Some guys have it and some do not. We're saddled with someone who does not (IMHO). The talent the Reds have (Dunn, Griffey, EdE, Phillips, Hamilton, etc) is enough to win even with a sucky bullpen. Why aren't we winning? No other answer but poor management comes to mind.

We've had some great talent over the years since 2000. It's likeit has been wasted on the Boones, Mileys and Narrons of the world instead of proven winners. It's hard to take--losses like tonight's, especially when the masses were saying "no, no" when Stanton was pitching batting practice. Is Narron so dumb that he couldn't see that? Is he so unaware that his heart left him in? If so, he needs a heart transplant. Soon.

[cincinnati chili]

Wasn't in the game thread tonight and haven't called for his firing, but if the Reds were in the market, I've always liked what I've heard from Larry Dierker.

I've speculated before that he must have some major skeletons or something. Is he a drinker? A registered sex offender?

I know he had the health issue (seizure) and I know that he had a poor record in the playoffs. But guys with that kind of winning percentage, ALWAYS get second jobs.

[WMR]

Anybody
But
Narron

[realistic]

The Reds missed the boat on Pinella. he landed in the bermuda triangle in Chicago.

Want to bring life to the franchise and sell some tickets and win some games?

Bring Davey Johnson back from Hawaii or wherever he is, Marge and her 'values' are gone. Davey knows baseball. Period. Exclamation point!

note : quick web search shows he was hired by Jimbo last summer as a nats special asst....toss him some cash and lets win, this current situation is stale

[GAC]

If Narron would ever get fired thenI would like to see Mcclenden come here and be the manager.

You gotta be ^%$#@ me!! :lol:

I'm sorry. Not trying to be rude; but I watched that guy for the last couple of years as the Pirates mgr, and he totally didn't know how to handle pitchers. He was almost as bad as Dusty. And some of his game time decisions were just as asinine IMO.

And I thought Dierker was no longer an option because of health concerns?

But I did submit the question to him on his website, and the "Ask Larry" section

http://www.larrydierker.com/default.asp

And you will never get Davey Johnson off that fishing boat. Never!

And we didn't "miss" Piniella. He would have never came back here anyway because he needs (demands) to be with a team that has a large payroll, and who will buy him the players. Where has Piniella ever been instrumental in building a team/developing talent? He has "inherited" already solid teams for the most part. The one shot he had, in TB, he failed at.

And the Cubs will be a huge headache for him. :)

[MrCinatit]

I keep saying this - and I keep hoping I will be proven wrong - but I believe there is no way this club ever makes the playoffs with Narron at the helm. He is not an intelligent man, and the team in return is not intelligent.

[bucksfan2]

Narron is an ok manager until late in the game. He tries to hard to think and ends up out thinking himself. He almost reminds me of a guy who has a statistical handbook that tells him what moves to make late in the game. He too often doesn't go with the hot hand and prefers the righty against righty or lefty against lefty matchups. I didn't see the start of the 8th but if Coffey go the first out leave him in. I saw stanton get rocked against some average players. The Astros have 2 players to be scared of, Lee and Berkman, and the reds have been beat by their other players already too many times this year.

If Narron gets fired I want a guy who is going to light a fire under the players. I want a Leyland type who isn't afraid to say what he thinks. I dont want a manager who sugar coats everything. I dont want a manager who doesn't take accountability for the mistakes he makes. Unfortunatly if Narron gets canned this organization will probably go with Bucky Dent and we will continue to promote from within and continue keeping this losing culture around in Cincinnati.

[44Magnum]

The guy makes my skin crawl with all of his situational pitching substitutions. If a reliever can't get an opposite handed batter out, then why is he on the roster? The bullpen will be completely shot by June with the way Narron manages them.:bang:

[44Magnum]

I will take anyone right now now over Narron.

[redsmetz]

The guy makes my skin crawl with all of his situational pitching substitutions. If a reliever can't get an opposite handed batter out, then why is he on the roster? The bullpen will be completely shot by June with the way Narron manages them.:bang:

You're probably too young to remember Sparky in his heyday - you'd have loved Capt. Hook.

[rotnoid]

The guy makes my skin crawl with all of his situational pitching substitutions. If a reliever can't get an opposite handed batter out, then why is he on the roster? The bullpen will be completely shot by June with the way Narron manages them.:bang:

We could only be so lucky. Maybe then we'd see the influx of younger arms from 90 miles southwest of here.

[Yachtzee]

I've speculated before that he must have some major skeletons or something. Is he a drinker? A registered sex offender?

I know he had the health issue (seizure) and I know that he had a poor record in the playoffs. But guys with that kind of winning percentage, ALWAYS get second jobs.

That could be. I thought I saw something before that the health problems were under control and that he might entertain managing again. But then he may just be comfortable where he is right now and would need the right situation to get back into managing. It would be nice, when the managing position comes open again, if they would at least talk to the guy.

[RichRed]

Isn't the choice obvious? Former Twin skipper Tom Kelly!

[flyer85]

I'd much rather see Castro, Stanton and Weathers on the bus out of town.

[BRM]

I'd much rather see Castro, Stanton and Weathers on the bus out of town.

Weathers might be alright as a 6th inning guy.

[George Anderson]

Not that I am endorsing him but what about Cito Gaston??

[WMR]

Weathers might be alright as a 6th inning guy.

:laugh:

But he's the closer!! :laugh:

[BRM]

But he's the closer!! :laugh:

Thus the issue at hand. The guys at the back end are better suited for the front end.

[WMR]

Thus the issue at hand. The guys at the back end are better suited for the front end.

I know. I fully agree with you. I was just parodying Mr. Narron.

How funny is it that our closer is best situated for very, very, VERY long relief? :laugh:

[BRM]

You seem to be in an awfully good mood today WilyMo.

[WMR]

Hahaha... I had a dream that Narron and Krivsky were fired and they hired Billy Beane to be the manager and the GM for an exorbitant amount of cash + a percentage of ownership the team.

Plus it's Friday! :D

[Yachtzee]

:laugh:

But he's the closer!! :laugh:

"AND HIS FATHER IS THE DISTRICT ATTORNEY!" :eek:

Sorry. Old joke, I now. Couldn't resist.

[BRM]

Hahaha... I had a dream that Narron and Krivsky were fired and they hired Billy Beane to be the manager and the GM for an exorbitant amount of cash + a percentage of ownership the team.

Plus it's Friday! :D

That's some dream!

[RollyInRaleigh]

Hahaha... I had a dream that Narron and Krivsky were fired and they hired Billy Beane to be the manager and the GM for an exorbitant amount of cash + a percentage of ownership the team.

Plus it's Friday! :D

It's really Monday and the Reds did hire Beane. "Orson Beane.":evil:

[WMR]

It's really Monday and the Reds hired "Orson Beane.:evil: "

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:


"AHHHHHHHH!"

[WMR]

"AND HIS FATHER IS THE DISTRICT ATTORNEY!" :eek:

Sorry. Old joke, I now. Couldn't resist.

What's that from?

[Yachtzee]

What's that from?

Some heavily-hyped but quickly-canceled FOX show. The promos featuring that line were played constantly during the 2003 playoffs.

http://digamma.net/btfwiki/His_father_is_the_district_attorney

[WMR]

Some heavily-hyped but quickly-canceled FOX show. The promos featuring that line were played constantly during the 2003 playoffs.

http://digamma.net/btfwiki/His_father_is_the_district_attorney

Haha, that's great. :)

[Caveat Emperor]

"AND HIS FATHER IS THE DISTRICT ATTORNEY!" :eek:

Sorry. Old joke, I now. Couldn't resist.

Or, the more recent: "YOU'RE RISKING A PATIENT'S LIFE!"

[Chip R]

Or, the more recent: "YOU'RE RISKING A PATIENT'S LIFE!"


At least that show was a success. Skin lasted, what, four episodes?

[Marc D]

How about Girardi(sp?) he seemed to get the most out of a mediocre and young Florida team.

I'll echo what many have said here regarding Narron. I don't think anyone on earth could manage this team to a pennant but I don't see him getting the most he has out of what he's got. Max effort and good, hard, smart baseball is all I ask from my team when they are obviously outmanned.
I see laziness, mental mistakes and dumb play nightly. These are the things a manager can control, he sets the corporate culture of that clubhouse.

All in all, I'm not really mad at Narron anymore so than I'm mad at Stanton. You can't blame mediocre people for being mediocre. I blame the guy who fills positions with mediocre people. The honeymoon is over and WK needs to start being held accountable.

[Highlifeman21]

I will take anyone right now now over Narron.

Dusty Baker?

[WMR]

Dusty Baker?

You EVIL MAN!! :D

[KronoRed]

Dusty Baker?

I think I just heard Homer scream

[WMR]

I think I just heard Homer scream

It was as though a million voices screamed out at once, and then were silenced.

[Chip R]

It was as though a million voices screamed out at once, and then were silenced.


http://msnbcmedia2.msn.com/j/msnbc/Components/Photos/050315/050315_scream_vmed12p.widec.jpg

[KronoRed]

It was as though a million voices screamed out at once, and then were silenced.

Yep, the entire minor league pitching system of the Reds

[Wheelhouse]

I'd bring back Jack McKeon. He won with Gonzalez and Conine. So there is some reference there. Griffey and Larkin hated him, but they're the architects of this love-fest of a clubhouse now that wins a few, kicks back and has some laughs, then blows a few.

Another thing---with the announcers, I'm getting sick of hearing about all the things that are more important than baseball. Soon, cooking will be more important than baseball.

[Yachtzee]

Soon, cooking will be more important than baseball.

Hey. A person's got to eat.

[edabbs44]

I'd bring back Jack McKeon. He won with Gonzalez and Conine. So there is some reference there. Griffey and Larkin hated him, but they're the architects of this love-fest of a clubhouse now that wins a few, kicks back and has some laughs, then blows a few.

If McKeon came back, Wayne would throw him in the bullpen.

[kaldaniels]

It doesn't matter who they would replace him with. To sit on your hands is season suicide. Be proactive.

Am I misinterpeting this.....are you suggesting any team 3 games under .500 in early May should fire the manager to avoid "season suicide"....your statement needs some more details.

[kaldaniels]

If McKeon came back, Wayne would throw him in the bullpen.

So...what's your point, we'd just have a player-manager.

[Spring~Fields]

If McKeon came back, Wayne would throw him in the bullpen.

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Not to mention signing bonus and long term contract.

[membengal]

Don't know if it has been said anywhere on here, but I would love for them to bring Bobby Valentine back from Japan.

[Yachtzee]

Don't know if it has been said anywhere on here, but I would love for them to bring Bobby Valentine back from Japan.

Maybe he could wear a disguise. ;)

[membengal]

Make all the disguise jokes you want, Valentine has been taking names in Japan, brings an energy and intelligence to the job of managing that I for one would appreciate, and is the kind of out-of-the-box hire that would make sense for the Reds, if they wish to change directions at some point in the near future...

[Yachtzee]

Make all the disguise jokes you want, Valentine has been taking names in Japan, brings an energy and intelligence to the job of managing that I for one would appreciate, and is the kind of out-of-the-box hire that would make sense for the Reds, if they wish to change directions at some point in the near future...

I wasn't saying it would be a bad thing. It would certainly give the Reds a leg up in Asian scouting. The whole disguise business cracks me up though. :)

[Highlifeman21]

Bobby Valentine certainly would be interesting.

I definitely prefer him over Jerry Narron.

[WMR]

Have to add that Jerry Narron, more and more, seems to be staring off into the abyss, much like his predecessor Dave Miley was wont to do.

Pondering the imponderables, I suppose.

[Daggohere]

I just got done reading through the game thread, and like many others when the Reds lose, there were quite a few people calling for Narron to be canned. Most any move he makes results in people calling him a moron, idiot or some variation of the like. So my question is this: If Narron was to be fired tomorrow (like many on here want to happen), who would you replace him with? Who is out there, either in the minor league system or curerntly unemoployed, that A.)would do a better job in steering this team to more victories via his managerial moves, and B.) realistically could be lured/promoted to coach for the small market Reds?

NOTE: Keep in mind, this thread isn't intended to simply call out those that want Narron fired (well, maybe a little bit). I really am curious as to who people think could replace Jerry Narron and do a superior job with the players he has been given.
Well If You Look Deep Enough For A Manager To Replace Jerry Narron You Will Find One! Ron Oester Will Be The Man For The Job! Currenly Ron Oester Is Now Managing The Cincinnati Steams But When Cincinnati Steams Season Is Over In June Ron Oester Will Be Available To Take Over The Management Job. Ron Oester Is A Firey Man And This Is What These Players Need! He Will Not Take Any Crap From Any Player! His Way Or The Highway.....
Let's Root For The Reds To Get Ron Oester To Manage This Team!

[Carin4Narron]

Oester is another Ray Knight. No Thanks.

[DannyB]

Pete Rose!:)

[Doro]

Replacing Narron is not the answer. At the major league level its the players given to the manager (except if your Bob Boone..... he just stinks). Great example is Torre in NY. He wasnt anything great before going to NY. All of a sudden he was given players to get the job done. Now most of the players are gone and some are calling for his head.

However, if they do fire Narron I would love Girardi. Replacing with someone on the current ship isnt going to get the job done.

Or how about this idea of a new manager? GREG VAUGHN, I dont know if he would even be looking to go this way but many players and other Reds personel said hes the best leader they have ever seen in a Reds uniform during the '99 season. Then he left and the Reds have stunk it up ever since. Even if he doesnt make the bill as a head coach he seems like the type of guy that would be great to have at some other coaching position.

[AmarilloRed]

I know he was signed to an extension, but managers are usually blamed for a team's poor performance. It will be very hard for Narron to keep his job if the team continues to play this poorly. I would like to know when Redzone thinks Narron will be fired, and who do you think would replace him. It is not impossible for him to save his job, but he would have to do an outstanding job, and get the team near .500. I have seen no evidence he is capable of that.

[ED44]

I think he would already be gone IF the front office had any intentions of having him gone. He would have never lasted this past stretch if so.

I could be wrong (and hope I am), but I figure he will be here for the season. If, by chance, he is let go, I figure they would hand it over to Bucky Dent.

[jmble]

What I'm hoping for is that they just realize that firing Narron now wouldn't do any good. I'm hoping they are just waiting until the end of the year when they can conduct a full search and bring somebody new into the organization.

The last thing I want is for them to fire Narron mid season, bring in Dent as an interim guy. Dent somehow get this club to play at or around .500 and ownership deciding he deserves a chance to manage the club for a whole year.

[JLB5]

What I'm hoping for is that they just realize that firing Narron now wouldn't do any good. I'm hoping they are just waiting until the end of the year when they can conduct a full search and bring somebody new into the organization.

The last thing I want is for them to fire Narron mid season, bring in Dent as an interim guy. Dent somehow get this club to play at or around .500 and ownership deciding he deserves a chance to manage the club for a whole year.

I agree to the point that I don't know who else they can get at this point. Keeping Narron cost them shots at Leyland and Tracy. I not among those who though bringing back Sweet Lou was the best answer.

[AmarilloRed]

I am not one who wants him fired. Its just that a collapse like this after being contenders last year, someone has to be the fall guy. I dont think anyone will be traded, and Krivsky has shown he is a good GM(for the most part). It is possible he will last the year and be let go at the end of it. In any case, we will have a new manager before very long.

[harangatang]

I think the manager is really irrelevant if the ballclub itself has major deficenies. Replacing Jerry Narron with someone i.e. like Sweet Lou doesn't account for the fact that the Reds bullpen has one good arm and the offense can't hit worth a crap. I say firing the bullpen minus David Weathers and getting some offense sounds like a more viable plan.

[Topcat]

Narron's weakness is in his ability to use a pitching staff correctly. I truly believe he has not lost his catchers skills and the mentality to gut it out with his starters and his inability to use a bullpen correctly.

He to often this season has put a reliever into a game and gone with the mentality of using them complete a full inning, thus disregarding match ups. He also has extended his starters way to often and been short sighted in the long term picture of the whole season. Jerry's affinity to crafty vets has also been detrimental in the fact he does not allow the young relievers to grow and learn. The blatant over use of David weathers is going to come back and bite this franchise in the ass.

David Weathers becomes my number 1 trade able commodity due to the fact I believe he is going to break down in the Near future.

[durl]

Maybe I'm too much of a novice here but I don't see the bullpen's collapse as all Narron's fault. Narron is ripped to shreds when he:

- leaves a starter in too long and he blows the game.
- yanks a starter early and a reliever blows the game.
- pulls a starter after 100 pitches and the bullpen blows the game.
- pulls the starter to get the L-R matchup and the reliever blows it.

Basically, any time the bullpen players can't do their job, Narron is the supposed cause. I would guess he's reluctant to swap out pitchers several times in an inning for match-up reasons because he figures any one of the relievers he puts in has shown the ability to blow it over and over again. There simply is no consistency in this bullpen that would allow a manager to use them with confidence.

I've said it before: at some point, the pitchers have to take some responsibility for getting batters out.

[AmarilloRed]

It may not be fair to blame Narron for the bad play of the club,but teams will often fire a manager whose team is underperforming. I think this club should be at least at .500, but they are just losing a lot of close games. I have no suggestions on who the new manager will be, but I think there will be a new one next year.

[Screwball]

He to often this season has put a reliever into a game and gone with the mentality of using them complete a full inning, thus disregarding match ups. .

I must be watching different Reds games than you, because I see him do just the opposite. There have been numerous instances where Narron has used 4 or 5 pitchers to get through 2 innings, or he'll micro-manage a la Tony LaRussa because he's so concerned with matching up lefty against lefty, etc. whether the current pitcher is being effective or not.



He also has extended his starters way to often and been short sighted in the long term picture of the whole season.


This is true but it's really tough to blame him when you consider the absolute trash he's had to work with. I mean, Narron leaves his starter in for 120-130 pitches and he gets lit up for not thinking long term. He takes his starter out when he reaches 110 pitches despite cruising and Narron gets lit up for going to the terrible bullpen too early.

It just seems like no matter what JN does there's a large group of people who blame him and bash him for his decision, regardless if it's the correct one or not.

[Griffey012]

Bob Brenly...get him off the tube