Would you trade Dunn for Lidge?

[redlegs2370]

I think it is obvious that the Reds stand a good chance to see Adam Dunn walk at the end of the season. The Astros are in need of offensive help and the Reds are in need of bullpen help.

This would also make the Reds a better defensive team because Hamilton could play everyday in left.

Any thoughts?

[westofyou]

Hell no

[flyer85]

Where would the Astros play Dunn?

[BigREDSfaninKY]

NO. Are your freakin' kidding me?

[paintmered]

Any thoughts?

I think you forgot it isn't 2004 anymore.

[HumnHilghtFreel]

Throw in one Roy Oswalt and then I may start liking the way this sounds.

[StrikeIndicator]

Lidge has not been the same since the Cards ended his streak and the 'Stros season two years ago. For 'Stro fans, and my neighor is a HUGE one, he went from the unhittable favorite son to the "Oh NO, don't bring him in!!!"

I watched him come in last year a number of times vs contenders/winning teams and he did not get the job done then either.

Yes, the guys in the booth are saying he is "working his way back to being the closer" but I personally would not make that move. He showed me too many "deer in the headlights" looks to put $$$ and faith in him.

Neither do I subscibe to the "maybe a change of scenery will do him good".

[redsmetz]

I think it is obvious that the Reds stand a good chance to see Adam Dunn walk at the end of the season. The Astros are in need of offensive help and the Reds are in need of bullpen help.

This would also make the Reds a better defensive team because Hamilton could play everyday in left.

Any thoughts?

Please! It's a good chance the Reds will see Dunn walk? Dunn can't walk unless we let him - his option, frankly, will look pretty affordable at year's end. And why would we want Lidge?

joe

[oneupper]

Wayne, is that you?

[edabbs44]

That was a bad one. If they still had Hirsh I would talk to them.

[WMR]

Wayne, is that you?

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Seriously, I LOL'd at this one.

[markymark69]

Not straight up. No way. For all of Dunn's faults, he still is a valuable offensive weapon, he's got to bring more than that. I wouldn't mind if was Lidge was included in the deal, but there would have to be more coming the Reds way than just Lidge.

[pahster]

I wouldn't trade Adam Dunn straight up for pre-2006 Lidge. That's craziness!

[PuffyPig]

Any thoughts?

Why should we think if you're not going to?

[mroby85]

i would make the trade if i got a couple good prospects along with lidge. I personally wouldn't extend dunn at the end of the year, i would rather have a guy that can hit around 300, strikeout less, and just be a consistent hitter.

[bucksfan2]

i would make the trade if i got a couple good prospects along with lidge. I personally wouldn't extend dunn at the end of the year, i would rather have a guy that can hit around 300, strikeout less, and just be a consistent hitter.

Look at the contracts that Gary Matthews Jr. and Pierre got this past season and if not traded you will see Dunn in a Cincinnati uniform next year and maybe they will even extend him further. As for Dunn for Lidge I would do it if they included a good prospect along with him. I dont see Houston doing it because they have Lee in left already so Dunn doesn't really have a place to play.

[pedro]

I wouldn't trade Ryan Freel for Brad Lidge.

[westofyou]

I wouldn't trade Ryan Freel for Brad Lidge.

Brad Lidge p
1 year/$5.35M (2007)
* ML service: 4.043

So let's trade Dunn's everyday ability for a guy who pitched only 4.7% of his teams innings and will be one year from Free Agency after this season.

That's a bad plan.

[edabbs44]

The major problem is that the Reds really don't have even one arm in the pen that is 100% reliable. To go out and get a closer-type would be nonsense because the other stiffs in the pen will just blow the game in the 7th or 8th anyway.

You need 2 power arms to get this bullpen to a decent place.

[pedro]

The major problem is that the Reds really don't have even one arm in the pen that is 100% reliable. To go out and get a closer-type would be nonsense because the other stiffs in the pen will just blow the game in the 7th or 8th anyway.

You need 2 power arms to get this bullpen to a decent place.

Lidge ain't that guy anymore.

[Johnny Footstool]

Contrary to popular belief, Pujols' 2005 HR off Lidge didn't shatter Lidge's psyche. That HR didn't really matter in terms of the NLCS, and Lidge still managed a monsterous K/9 last season.

According to Brad Ausmus, Lidge's mechanics have gotten messy, he's lost a couple of MPH off his fastball, and his slider now has a tell-tale "hump" that hitters have picked up on.

That said, trading Adam Dunn for Lidge is plain silly. Especially when Lidge's value is at its lowest.

[dsmith421]

i would make the trade if i got a couple good prospects along with lidge. I personally wouldn't extend dunn at the end of the year, i would rather have a guy that can hit around 300, strikeout less, and just be a consistent hitter.

Fortunately, these players grow on trees and can be acquired without any significant outlay of talent or money.

[CTA513]

Fortunately, these players grow on trees and can be acquired without any significant outlay of talent or money.

I was able to get 2 of them at a buy one get one free sale downtown a couple days ago.

[Chip R]

Lidge ain't that guy anymore.


He's got the power but not so much on the reliability.

[Bobcat J]

This would also make the Reds a better defensive team because Hamilton could play everyday in left.


Wouldn't this make the offense considerably worse? And, are you willing to trade what little offense we have left for a little extra defense?

Making this trade would be all kinds of crazy.

[KronoRed]

No thanks AB

[KYRed]

Is this supposed to be a serious thread?

[Degenerate39]

Is this supposed to be a serious thread?

Obviously not

[AmarilloRed]

They might have done it last year when Dunn was hitting.230, and Lidge looked like a decent pitcher. At this point Dunn seems to be remaking himself into a complete hitter . We might trade him for Roy Oswalt at this point,but not for Lidge.

[Degenerate39]

They might have done it last year when Dunn was hitting.230, and Lidge looked like a decent pitcher. At this point Dunn seems to be remaking himself into a complete hitter . We might trade him for Roy Oswalt at this point,but not for Lidge.

They probably wouldn't give us anything for Dunn. They've got Lee at Left Field and Berkman at first base. No place for Dunn.

[justincredible]

As of right now I wouldn't trade some baseball cards, a sack of marbles and a dead bird for Brad Lidge.

But as everyone else has already said, the 'Stros don't need Dunn so it really doesn't matter anyway.

[roknrolredsfan]

Doesn't anybody remember that Dunn is signed for 3 years? It isn't gonna happen!!!:bang:

[Chip R]

Doesn't anybody remember that Dunn is signed for 3 years? It isn't gonna happen!!!:bang:


Actually this is the last year of his deal. The Reds have an option for 2008.

[Will]

One reliever isn't going to save our bullpen and you can bank on a hitter producing year after year far more than you can a pitcher. Guys like Dunn are few and far between and we need him. Now if we could get 4 good relievers for him that might be something to consider :cool:

[Redlegs]

Lidge hasn't been the same since Pujols took him deep in the playoffs. That's all we need is a head case to go along with the rest of our dreadful bullpen.

[OnBaseMachine]

Hell no

I second that.

[ED44]

Defnitely NOT Dunn for Lidge.

If Dunn's gone, I would like to see us net Zumaya and Thames from the Tigers in return.

[reds44]

No.

[KronoRed]

I'd trade Stanton for him

:D

[StrikeIndicator]

I'd trade Stanton for him

:D

My grandfather had an expression for situations like that,

TRADING DECK CHAIRS ON THE TITANTIC
:beerme:

[Patrick Bateman]

To go out and get a closer-type would be nonsense because the other stiffs in the pen will just blow the game in the 7th or 8th anyway.


This makes zero sense. So the Reds should not make moves that improve themselves unless the team is solid throughout?

Should the Nationals not try to go out and get an ace pitcher because they would still have 4 starters that would still continually suck?

If getting a closer in a trade is a beneficial move for the Reds, then they should do it. To hold back because you still need another good pitcher is silly.

[cincrazy]

If Dunn is to go anywhere, it won't be Houston. They already have enough money tied up in Lee and Berkman to anchor that lineup, they sure aren't going to throw Dunn in.

Besides, I tend to be of the opinion that I'd trade Dunn if the returns were good, but I would NEVER trade Dunn and make a reliever the centerpiece of the deal. Not to mention a reliever that's suffering from Chuck Knoblauch Syndrome, but instead of throwing it into the stands, he throws it RIGHT DOWN THE PIPE every time.

[Lockdwn11]

Throw in one Roy Oswalt and then I may start liking the way this sounds.

I wouldn't do it either but you have to be joking if you think Adam Dunn will ever be worth a pitcher like Roy Oswalt

[Red in Atl]

Hell no

Exactly...

[Astrobuddy]

Dunn for Oswalt. Thats the most laughable idea I have read in this thread. What makes it funny is that those who wrote it believe it is possible.

A trade for Roy Oswalt would take 2 MLB ready players and 2 top prospects just to get the conversation started.

You guys WAAAY over value Adam Dunn. But if Dunn were to end up in Houston he could play RF or moe to 1st and Berkman could play RF.




As far as Lidge is concerned... If the Astros wanted to trade him teams would listen. He still has nasty stuff and throws hard. Ausmus and others have stated it is mechanical, NOT Albert Pujols homerun, which by the way was meaningless and didnt end the Astros season. The Astros beat the Cards in game # 5 at Busch and went to the World Series.

Lidge will be a good closer again. Maybe not in Houston though.

[Dracodave]

As far as Lidge is concerned... If the Astros wanted to trade him teams would listen. He still has nasty stuff and throws hard. Ausmus and others have stated it is mechanical, NOT Albert Pujols homerun, which by the way was meaningless and didnt end the Astros season. The Astros beat the Cards in game # 5 at Busch and went to the World Series.

Lidge will be a good closer again. Maybe not in Houston though.

Tampa Bay called for Lidge the second he hit the market. Houstons old pitching coach (currently TB's) said he could fix Lidge and make Lidge the closer he once was.

Houston denied the fact Lidge was on the market, because...seriously..why trade Lidge now to a person/team that can fix him and get him back? Trade him for potatoes..and let him suck still,

[Astrobuddy]

I think the Astros are intent on fixing Lidge or at least get his value back up. He has pitched well lately and it is reported he is getting back to basics.

I dont know.. we will see what happens.

[redlegs2370]

Why should we think if you're not going to?

The Reds scored 7 runs tonight without Dunn getting a single hit. However the bullpen gave up 4 more runs.

[Patrick Bateman]

A trade for Roy Oswalt would take 2 MLB ready players and 2 top prospects just to get the conversation started.


Sorry AB, but you way overrate Oswalt's current value. Sure he has been a fantastic pitcher since he's come into the league, but be very wary of short pitchers with lots of mileage and a fast declining K rate. His career as a dominant force is quickly dwindling down the drain.

[redlegs2370]

Wouldn't this make the offense considerably worse? And, are you willing to trade what little offense we have left for a little extra defense?

Making this trade would be all kinds of crazy.

How would it make offense worse? Hamilton .296, 14 RBI, 6 HR in 81 AB; 4 HR, Griffey .308, 4 HR, 14 RBI, 78 AB; and Freel .268 97 AB. Compare that to Dunn's .266 8 HR 17 RBI in 109 AB. Dunn has 3 more RBI in 28 more AB's than Hamilton and 31 than Jr.

I can't see how the offense would be any worse. I'm not saying it would be better but definitely not worse.

[Astrobuddy]

Thats funny Austin. Dwindling K rates? Ask Clemens about those K rates. He seems to do just fine with a lower K rate.

Oswalt has become a pitcher now, not just a thrower. He isnt trying to K batters so he can last longer in games. Striking out alot of batters takes
more pitches. Oswalt can get a K when he needs it.

Short pitchers? Thats funny too.

I am not worried about Roy Oswalt and NO, I dont over value him. He is top 5 in all of MLB and teams would give up the farm system to get him.

[WMR]

The Return of ASTROBUDDY!!

[Patrick Bateman]

Short pitchers? Thats funny too.


That's what most people around here said about Danny Graves a few years back and he went faster than anyone I have ever seen. Oswalt was always far superior than Graves, but short pitchers decline more rapidly than anyone in baseball.


Oswalt has become a pitcher now, not just a thrower. He isnt trying to K batters so he can last longer in games. Striking out alot of batters takes
more pitches. Oswalt can get a K when he needs it.

Becoming more of a 'pitcher' is usually baseball speak for 'going downhill'. Then how come his walks are also increasing? If he was becoming more of a 'pitcher' then his control would become more refined as he relies on hitting his spots. Instead, right now we are seeing his continuing downward trend in strikeouts while also seeing an increase in the walk rates. That is not a good combination.

Oswalt is still clearly a quality pitcher, but he is doesn't appear to be the dominant force he once was. If these traits he is showing continue, then you will see a dramatic increase in his ERA to the 4.00 level. The only thing holding him back from that right now is pure fortune on his part.

At this point in his career, no team would be willing to offer 2 major league ready players in addition to 2 top prospects, especially in modern baseball where prospects are held on to for dear life.

[Astrobuddy]

Well.. I am not buying the "short pitcher" theory, which I have yet to see as proven fact. It is just someone opinion. Maddux has done just fine and he and Oswalt are the same size.

Oswalts walks are also not increasing and his K's arent decreasing as you stated. Having 22 less K's over the course of a season isnt really that much, it isnt even 1K per start.

Roy Oswalt is more than just a "quality pitcher" Roy Oswalt is a dominant pitcher and the most consistent in the NL for a few years now. His impending doom based on his size has been predicted by the same types that said Mark Prior was a lock HOF'er with perfect build and mechanics. Yea, that worked out.

If you think Oswalt is going downhill then I cant convince you otherwise. But i would be very curious to find out what you think not going downhill is.

At this point in his career?? YOU mean in his PRIME dont you?? Only 29 years old. You mean the guy who is only 9 months older than your own Aaron Harang and younger than Bronson Arroyo?

The Astros could get just about whatever they wanted for Roy Oswalt if traded to a team in contention. On this I have no doubt. But Roy Oswalt isnt going anywhere.

You should know how dominant he is. You have watched him against your Reds for quite a while now.

[Patrick Bateman]

Well.. I am not buying the "short pitcher" theory, which I have yet to see as proven fact. It is just someone opinion. Maddux has done just fine and he and Oswalt are the same size.

It's not just opinion. It's a fact that smaller pitchers are less likely to be effective major leaguers past the age of 30 (about half as likely). It can obviously be done, but the odds are stacked against pitchers like Oswalt. It certainly doesn't help that he's already logged an enormous amount of innings before age 30.



Oswalts walks are also not increasing and his K's arent decreasing as you stated.

So far this season, his walks/9 have jumped from 1.55 to 3.24. That's only a 50 inning sample, but for a picther that historically has shown such tremendous control, a jump like that is alarming. 3.24 walks/9 is not like Oswalt.

As for his K's, here are his career K/9 numbers on an annual basis:

2001: 9.15
2002: 8.03
2003: 7.63
2004: 7.82
2005: 6.85
2006: 6.77
2007: 5.22

Is this really a trend that you want to see continue. Oswalt has proven that he can pitch very effectively with decreasing K numbers, but it is beginning to get to a point that when combined with an increasing walk rate that it is becoming a problem.



If you think Oswalt is going downhill then I cant convince you otherwise. But i would be very curious to find out what you think not going downhill is.

If you simply look at his ERA, it does not appear that he is going downhill. However, with weaker peripheral numbers, I am suggesting that the downward trend has began even though the actual aount of run give up has not changed. If he continues pitching with the same peripheral numbers, his effectiveness will decrease quickly and Roy Oswalt will no longer be the elite pitcher he currently appears to be.


At this point in his career?? YOU mean in his PRIME dont you?? Only 29 years old. You mean the guy who is only 9 months older than your own Aaron Harang and younger than Bronson Arroyo?

I can say with staunch certaintity that Harang's name does not fit in the short pitchers debate. If there is a guy in baseball that should remain durable over the next 5 years, he may be the choice. He has the frame that does not generally lead to quick downward trends.

Again, Arroyo is a different pitcher. He's 6-5 and doesn't have the mileage on his arm that Oswalt does. And that's no slight to Oswalt. he cam in the league at a pretty young age and has been one of the most consistent 200+ innings guys around, but at some point that can begin to wear down on a guy, especially a smaller pitcher.


You should know how dominant he is. You have watched him against your Reds for quite a while now.

AB, this debate has absolutely nothing to do with his past success. Roy Oswalt has been a fantastic picther to date and has handled the Reds with ease. I know how good he has been, but there is clear evidence that suggests that a sharp decline could be fast approaching.

[Astrobuddy]

Well.. I guess you will take your saber stats and I will take my faith and we will both see what happens.

[WMR]

Astrobuddy always cracks me up!! :laugh: :laugh:

[Eric_Davis]

I wouldn't trade Dunn for three Lidges.

[snowstorm]

Astrobuddy is right about one thing. It will take a lot more than Dunn to get Oswalt. His stats may be declining, but Oswalt is still one of the premier pitchers in baseball right now, and quality starting pitchers are worth a lot more than outfielders in today's market.

Oh yeah, and trading Dunn for Lidge is laughable. Don't we have enough ineffective pitchers in our bullpen already?

[Astrobuddy]

Lidge, if traded would bring nothing more than a couple of low minor league semi prospects at this point I would imagine.

Willymo.. I am happy to be of help.

[DTCromer]

Astrobuddy is right about one thing. It will take a lot more than Dunn to get Oswalt. His stats may be declining, but Oswalt is still one of the premier pitchers in baseball right now, and quality starting pitchers are worth a lot more than outfielders in today's market.

Oh yeah, and trading Dunn for Lidge is laughable. Don't we have enough ineffective pitchers in our bullpen already?


I agree. Oswalt is a true #1. You don't trade a true #1 pitcher for a career .246 hitter.