Majic Quote

[nate]

I kind of liked this Majewski quote (http://frontier.cincinnati.com/blogs/spring/2007/05/hello-from-louisville.asp#links):


"If I go up there and do half of what I did (in 2005 when he was with Washington), then I'd be happy ... and shove it up everybody's ass."

We'd be happy too...more about the first part than the second part.

[Natty Redlocks]

Wow big talker. Let's see some shovin'

[Falls City Beer]

Wow big talker. Let's see some shovin'

Indeed. I'd prefer it if he'd just go away.

[westofyou]

Indeed. I'd prefer it if he'd just go away.

Hey that's the type of "Smashmouth" baseball you prefer, I'm all for talk, back it with the walk is the next step.

[Falls City Beer]

Hey that's the type of "Smashmouth" baseball you prefer, I'm all for talk, back it with the walk is the next step.

Yeah. I like talk, no results.

You pegged me.

[TeamSelig]

Probably gets tired of being apart of "The Trade" (on the bad end of the deal)

An ERA in the 2s would be very valuable to our team, hopefully he can return to his Washington form

[westofyou]

Yeah. I like talk, no results.

You pegged me.I didn't say that, I said he's got to back the talk with results, you should want that as well. I'd think.

[Caveman Techie]

Actually I thought as a Red's fan you would prefer it if he did come up and had an awesome season. I for one would love for him to back it up with some action.

[Falls City Beer]

Actually I thought as a Red's fan you would prefer it if he did come up and had an awesome season. I for one would love for him to back it up with some action.

Sure, I would want him to perform. But he's not going to. So it's just idle banter.

[Caveman Techie]

Oh Ok, hey and while you have your crystal ball handy can you shoot me the next lotto numbers in a PM. :)

[George Anderson]

I can't say Im convinced Majic's gonna follow thru with it, but I sure like his attitude!!

[AmarilloRed]

I still think if he healthy he will help the club.

[bthomasiscool]

Sure, I would want him to perform. But he's not going to. So it's just idle banter.

The guy was injured, and is still recovering from injury. What exactly do you have against him?

[BuckeyeRedleg]

I still think if he healthy he will help the club.

If he's healthy, he's average.

So I guess he helps the club as long as he's healthy and he replaces someone that is below-average.

[Larry Schuler]

The great thing about being a pessimist is you're never wrong. You're either right or pleasantly surprised.

With that said, Old Maj is more done than a hall porter playing skip with a two-ton boa. He's like re-arranging deck chairs on a cast iron stove. He's more toast than a cabbage field on St. Patricks Day. Insert wise cliche #4.

[Falls City Beer]

The great thing about being a pessimist is you're never wrong. You're either right or pleasantly surprised.

With that said, Old Maj is more done than a hall porter playing skip with a two-ton boa. He's like re-arranging deck chairs on a cast iron stove. He's more toast than a cabbage field on St. Patricks Day. Insert wise cliche #4.

Don't you mean wise cliche #5?

[Caveman Techie]

The great thing about being a pessimist is you're never wrong. You're either right or pleasantly surprised.

With that said, Old Maj is more done than a hall porter playing skip with a two-ton boa. He's like re-arranging deck chairs on a cast iron stove. He's more toast than a cabbage field on St. Patricks Day. Insert wise cliche #4.

LOL, I vote for this to be post of the year. :)

[Falls City Beer]

The guy was injured, and is still recovering from injury. What exactly do you have against him?

Never good to begin with. Plus he's a damn liar.

[Always Red]

With that said, Old Maj is more done than a hall porter playing skip with a two-ton boa. He's like re-arranging deck chairs on a cast iron stove. He's more toast than a cabbage field on St. Patricks Day. Insert wise cliche #4.

:laugh: :laugh:
How can I come up with #4 if I've never heard the first three!!:D

[bthomasiscool]

Never good to begin with. Plus he's a damn liar.

While I'll give you that he has never been overly great, he has only been in the majors since 04'. His first two non-injured seasons I would without a doubt consider good. You've never lied before I guess?

[Degenerate39]

I kind of liked this Majewski quote (http://frontier.cincinnati.com/blogs/spring/2007/05/hello-from-louisville.asp#links):



We'd be happy too...more about the first part than the second part.

No one wants to see Majewski but anything up anyone's ass. Gross

[westofyou]

Let's see he had 10 RSAA in 2005, the Reds have 4 relievers who had that at least that much in the last 5 seasons.


RSAA YEAR RSAA GS
1 Scott Williamson 2002 13 0
T2 David Weathers 2006 11 0
T2 Todd Coffey 2006 11 0
4 Felix Heredia 2003 10 0

Nah, we don't need any of that do we?

[durl]

And to think I left the reds.com forum because of the negativity...

[nate]

If he's healthy, he's average.

So I guess he helps the club as long as he's healthy and he replaces someone that is below-average.

Right on. It's be great if we had a guy or two that could come in and strike apathy into the hearts of the opposing batters.

[nate]

No one wants to see Majewski but anything up anyone's ass. Gross

Oh the imagery!

[M2]

Majewski's got to think that way, any athlete does.

Juan Castro has to think he's just a tweak away from .300, 30, 100 too.

Confidence is a requirement.

[Falls City Beer]

And to think I left the reds.com forum because of the negativity...

Reds.com doesn't suck because of perceived "negativity." It sucks because stupid people post stupid things.

[Falls City Beer]

While I'll give you that he has never been overly great, he has only been in the majors since 04'. His first two non-injured seasons I would without a doubt consider good. You've never lied before I guess?

I might lie to my wife about how many beers.

Or my weight.

Or my sexual peccadiloes in high school.

But I wouldn't lie if I knew my co-workers would suffer because of it.

[flyer85]

He hasn't pitched since May 1st, what's up with that?

[Always Red]

He hasn't pitched since May 1st, what's up with that?

His sister was killed in an ATV accident:

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57516&highlight=majewski+sister+killed

[CTA513]

He hasn't pitched since May 1st, what's up with that?

He was given time off after his sister died, hes supposed to pitch tomorrow.

[nate]

Majewski's got to think that way, any athlete does.

Juan Castro has to think he's just a tweak away from .300, 30, 100 too.

Confidence is a requirement.

OPS, Hits this season and career RBIs?

[M2]

OPS, Hits this season and career RBIs?

Good stuff. I suppose Juan can dream, can't he?

[BRM]

I might lie to my wife about how many beers.

Or my weight.

Or my sexual peccadiloes in high school.

But I wouldn't lie if I knew my co-workers would suffer because of it.

I lie about that first one often.

[Rotater Cuff]

Sure, I would want him to perform. But he's not going to. So it's just idle banter.

No, it's not idle banter. It's swagger. In your face swagger. Just what this bunch of offinjured primadonna crybabies needs!

[StillFunkyB]

Hey that's the type of "Smashmouth" baseball you prefer, I'm all for talk, back it with the walk is the next step.

Agreed. Put up, or shut up Gary. Those numbers at AAA aren't saying a whole lot.

[Ludwig Reds Fan]

Maybe we can trade him for a IFer or OFer that can plays a few different positions? Maybe a guy like Lopez or Kearns?


Nah...nobody would be THAT stupid.


lol?

[nate]

Hey that's the type of "Smashmouth" baseball you prefer, I'm all for talk, back it with the walk is the next step.

Well, it'd be great if he pitched like an All Star and helped the Reds get so hot that they were Walking on the Sun. I mean, that would be So Insane. Then these west coast trips would be aPacific Coast Party.

Wishful thinking though I guess...Story of my Life.

[Natty Redlocks]

Well, it'd be great if he pitched like an All Star and helped the Reds get so hot that they were Walking on the Sun. I mean, that would be So Insane. Then these west coast trips would be aPacific Coast Party.

Wishful thinking though I guess...Story of my Life.

Yeah, he's gonna hafta come up and get some guys out before I'm A Believer

[Team Clark]

I hope he does come up here and shove it... then they can ship Coffey down to AAA to figure out what happened to his other pitches. Ryan Wagner anyone?

[TC81190]

If he's healthy, he's average.

So I guess he helps the club as long as he's healthy and he replaces someone that is below-average.

See 2005. And pre injury last year (3.5 ERA).

[Patrick Bateman]

See 2005. And pre injury last year (3.5 ERA).

His DIPS ERA park adjusted and league adjusted brings that number up to 3.95 (basically average) in 2005, and last season it was 4.18. With his injuries, that number may be getting worse. He's pretty mediocre.

[red-in-la]

Sure, I would want him to perform. But he's not going to. So it's just idle banter.

While you are at it FCB, could I also get next week's winning Lotto numbers? :D

[Aronchis]

Might as well just release Maj.

[Dom Heffner]

Can't we all agree that pretty much everybody in that deal stinks anyway?

"The Trade" is a non-factor. It was lose-lose for both teams.

[M2]

It was lose-lose for both teams.

Austin Kearns ranks as an upper half RF this season. He did so for the Nats last season. I'm missing the "lose" part of that for the Nats.

[WMR]

Austin Kearns ranks as an upper half RF this season. He did so for the Nats last season. I'm missing the "lose" part of that for the Nats.

It's like new math.

[Caveman Techie]

On that same list Josh Hamilton and JR both rank above Kearns.

[bounty37h]

Austin Kearns ranks as an upper half RF this season. He did so for the Nats last season. I'm missing the "lose" part of that for the Nats.

Some dude named Griffin, or Griffey, or sumpin like that has been seen out in right field for the Reds this year, and hasnt done too shabby a job so far, heck, he might even become a Hall of Famer some day. So no, not too worried about losing Kearns, or Lopez for that matter, in "the trade". I think some people read and heard others opinions on this trade so often they havent taken the time to see that really hasnt had much effect, positive or negative, on this team, at least not as much as a lot of people have made it out like it has been the biggest deal of the decade.

[BuckeyeRedleg]

Some dude named Griffin, or Griffey, or sumpin like that has been seen out in right field for the Reds this year, and hasnt done too shabby a job so far, heck, he might even become a Hall of Famer some day. So no, not too worried about losing Kearns, or Lopez for that matter, in "the trade". I think some people read and heard others opinions on this trade so often they havent taken the time to see that really hasnt had much effect, positive or negative, on this team, at least not as much as a lot of people have made it out like it has been the biggest deal of the decade.

I think you missed the point.

[Dom Heffner]

I just don't think Kearns is that big a loss. Sorry.

[BRM]

I just don't think Kearns is that big a loss. Sorry.

No one is upset at the loss of Kearns. Once again, the issue is and has always been the return.

[bounty37h]

I think you missed the point.

Maybe I did, but after re-reading the post I responded to, which was quoted on my reponse, I dont see where it missed the point. Please enlighten me, oh wise one :)

[BuckeyeRedleg]

First dose of enlightenment:

Neither Griffey, Hamilton, Gonzalez, or my German Shepherd have anything to do with the trade.

[Patrick Bateman]

Maybe I did, but after re-reading the post I responded to, which was quoted on my reponse, I dont see where it missed the point. Please enlighten me, oh wise one :)

Griffey being a good player does not mean you give away an above average position player for basically nothing.

[WMR]

Griffey being a good player does not mean you give away an above average position player for basically nothing.

Praise the Lord!

PREACH IT BROTHER AUSTIN!

[Rojo]

I heard Jimbo's giving Wayne a watch chain for Christmas. Wayne's going to give Jimbo a comb.

[reds44]

I don't get people trying to use Hamilton and Gonzalez as excuses for the trade. They do not relate. The fact that Gonzalez is off to a good start, and Hamilton had a good first month does not change the face that Krivsky gave away Lopez and Kearns for nothing.

You could have gotten someing worthwile for the 2, and still and Gonzalez and Hamilton.

[M2]

I just don't think Kearns is that big a loss. Sorry.

That's not really the point of making a trade. You don't trade a guy because it won't be that big a loss. You trade a guy to get something in return.

The Nats wanted Kearns. He's a solid player. They're happy they have him. They paid the absolute rock bottom minimum for him. Kearns may not be that big a loss. The player or players who didn't come in return for him and Lopez, that's painful.

Think about it this way: if you drop a $100 bill on the ground by accident, but find another C-note a few weeks later, you can try to claim the first $100 was no big loss, but the truth is you're still out $100.

[MartyFan]

I love that he has attitude...a chip on his shoulder with something to prove...like Dunn this year.

I hope he comes up to the ML team and makes everyone go silent.

[MartyFan]

I don't get people trying to use Hamilton and Gonzalez as excuses for the trade. They do not relate. The fact that Gonzalez is off to a good start, and Hamilton had a good first month does not change the face that Krivsky gave away Lopez and Kearns for nothing.

You could have gotten someing worthwile for the 2, and still and Gonzalez and Hamilton.

Bray and Majic need to come through...all in all though every GM makes moves like this...some get taken to the cleaner sometime...that doesn't reduce the reality of this but it is not a huge indictment of Special K in my book either.

More than this years team I am interested in seeing next years team...Special K and Mr. C will have been here two full seasons and the team on the field will totally represent the players they WANT on the field...not just the contracts they have to fulfill and minimal FA buys...by this time next year the team will have some cash to dip into the FA market and the ML players will start to come up to impact the team.

I am probably too patient but if we finish dead last this season I will be bummed but not surprised....nor ready to fire Special K...or claim no confidence in him or the ownership.

[WMR]

Bray and Majic need to come through...all in all though every GM makes moves like this...some get taken to the cleaner sometime...that doesn't reduce the reality of this but it is not a huge indictment of Special K in my book either.

More than this years team I am interested in seeing next years team...Special K and Mr. C will have been here two full seasons and the team on the field will totally represent the players they WANT on the field...not just the contracts they have to fulfill and minimal FA buys...by this time next year the team will have some cash to dip into the FA market and the ML players will start to come up to impact the team.

I am probably too patient but if we finish dead last this season I will be bummed but not surprised....nor ready to fire Special K...or claim no confidence in him or the ownership.

Sheesh how many times have I heard this same song and dance?

:rolleyes:

[Caveman Techie]

Sheesh how many times have I heard this same song and dance?

:rolleyes:

Probably the same number of times I have to hear this song and dance. :)

[M2]

I am probably too patient but if we finish dead last this season I will be bummed but not surprised....nor ready to fire Special K...or claim no confidence in him or the ownership.

I'd have no problems with a last place finish and wouldn't be putting anyone on the hot seat IF the franchise were in the midst of a serious rebuilding effort. It's not. It's been conducting its business like a team intent on contending. That's cool if that's the aim, but you've got to hit the mark. If the Reds finish dead last in 2007 then the front office and field management have royally screwed up. That doesn't mean anyone's head has to roll for it, but it does mean those in charge have failed.

[BRM]

I'd have no problems with a last place finish and wouldn't be putting anyone on the hot seat IF the franchise were in the midst of a serious rebuilding effort. It's not. It's been conducting its business like a team intent on contending. That's cool if that's the aim, but you've got to hit the mark. If the Reds finish dead last in 2007 then the front office and field management have royally screwed up. That doesn't mean anyone's head has to roll for it, but it does mean those in charge have failed.

Would the opinion of the FO change if they recognize this is a last place team and start selling off veterans for prospects in the next month or two? I guess that answer probably depends on the caliber of prospects, doesn't it? I know I would give them props if they recognize they failed to put a contending team on the field and started building for 2008 and 2009.

[M2]

Would the opinion of the FO change if they recognize this is a last place team and start selling off veterans for prospects in the next month or two? I guess that answer probably depends on the caliber of prospects, doesn't it? I know I would give them props if they recognize they failed to put a contending team on the field and started building for 2008 and 2009.

I'd give them credit for that, especially if they did a good of prospecting. In fact I'd have a lot of respect for Krivsky if he came to the realization that the franchise has been stuck in neither/nor territory.

Yet, he'd still be responsible for fumbling the 2007 season. It would be a case of a GM having learned from his mistakes.

[BRM]

Yet, he'd still be responsible for fumbling the 2007 season. It would be a case of a GM having learned from his mistakes.

That would be my take. Recognize you dropped the ball this season and work to right the ship for 2008 and beyond.

[Dom Heffner]

That's not really the point of making a trade. You don't trade a guy because it won't be that big a loss. You trade a guy to get something in return.

They were traded to get relief help that didn't pan out in a close season.

The Reds are going to be in last place with or without any of these guys.

I wouldn't have made the trade, either, but making it or not making it doesn't change a thing. They stink either way.

I think it's time to move on. Some people don't like the trade. Okay- now what?

It's 2007, and Austin Kearns is still Austin Kearns. He has not morphed into something better. He had a good few months and we thought he was the second coming. He's not. This isn't the Frank Robinson deal.

To say he's in the top half of right fielders right now speaks more about the rest of the field than it does Austin Kearns. He's average. Yawn.

The guy has hit 12 homeruns since we traded him 100 games ago.

12.

That just doesn't seem like anything to be upset over.

Felipe Lopez is still just okay. Not great, not bad, just okay. In fact, he's sort of fallen off the map this year.

The Nationals are one of the worst teams in baseball. Kearns and Lopez make up 25% of their starting lineup like they did here. Doesn't look like they are helping much.

Did we give up too much? Probably. I don't like giving up everyday players for an easy to come by position like middle relievers either. But the truth is, Krivsky took a chance and lost, but he didn't lose very big.

Did it end up mattering? Not really. We gave up average talent for below average talent. It's like trading Juan Pierre for David Weathers. I would rather have Pierre, but if losing either of them is what puts the dagger in your team, you didn't have much of a team to start with.

Put it this way: How many games fewer than 11.5 would we be closer to the Brewers with Kearns' 4 homeruns and .778 OPS?

We can speak all day about why you trade somebody, but when the talent level for everybody involved is so-so, it becomes moot to dissect the deal.

The trade is over, the Cardinals won the World Series last year, Tony Blair has resigned, Sam Adams has been released, Ricky Williams failed another drug test- I mean, the entire world has moved on.

Let's do the same.

[bounty37h]

First dose of enlightenment:

Neither Griffey, Hamilton, Gonzalez, or my German Shepherd have anything to do with the trade.

Nope, but they are in place in Cincy now (other then your mutt), and doing better then the cogs we "gave away and ruined the organiztion with", which is what I was responding to. So, still need some more of your clarification please.

[bounty37h]

They were traded to get relief help that didn't pan out in a close season.

The Reds are going to be in last place with or without any of these guys.

I wouldn't have made the trade, either, but making it or not making it doesn't change a thing. They stink either way.

I think it's time to move on. Some people don't like the trade. Okay- now what?

It's 2007, and Austin Kearns is still Austin Kearns. He has not morphed into something better. He had a good few months and we thought he was the second coming. He's not. This isn't the Frank Robinson deal.

To say he's in the top half of right fielders right now speaks more about the rest of the field than it does Austin Kearns. He's average. Yawn.

The guy has hit 12 homeruns since we traded him 100 games ago.

12.

That just doesn't seem like anything to be upset over.

Felipe Lopez is still just okay. Not great, not bad, just okay. In fact, he's sort of fallen off the map this year.

The Nationals are one of the worst teams in baseball. Kearns and Lopez make up 25% of their starting lineup like they did here. Doesn't look like they are helping much.

Did we give up too much? Probably. I don't like giving up everyday players for an easy to come by position like middle relievers either. But the truth is, Krivsky took a chance and lost, but he didn't lose very big.

Did it end up mattering? Not really. We gave up average talent for below average talent. It's like trading Juan Pierre for David Weathers. I would rather have Pierre, but if losing either of them is what puts the dagger in your team, you didn't have much of a team to start with.

Put it this way: How many games fewer than 11.5 would we be closer to the Brewers with Kearns' 4 homeruns and .778 OPS?

We can speak all day about why you trade somebody, but when the talent level for everybody involved is so-so, it becomes moot to dissect the deal.

The trade is over, the Cardinals won the World Series last year, Tony Blair has resigned, Sam Adams has been released, Ricky Williams failed another drug test- I mean, the entire world has moved on.

Let's do the same.

Thanks Dom, that was the point I was trying to make earlier.

[smith288]

I didn't say that, I said he's got to back the talk with results, you should want that as well. I'd think.
No, he actually prefers the Reds pitchers collectively fail so he can continue to bash Krivsky, Milton, Schotzy, Dr. Everett Koop, Prince or who/whatever bug gets up his rear...

[M2]

They were traded to get relief help that didn't pan out in a close season.

Ergo failed trade.


The Reds are going to be in last place with or without any of these guys.

I wouldn't have made the trade, either, but making it or not making it doesn't change a thing. They stink either way.

Having made a better trade would be making a difference right now.


I think it's time to move on. Some people don't like the trade. Okay- now what?

I agree with that. Problem is, it's difficult to move on when you can't recognize where you've been or even where you are. Say the Reds try to trade other useful players as part of moving on? Repeating the same mistakes isn't going to get you very far.


It's 2007, and Austin Kearns is still Austin Kearns. He has not morphed into something better. He had a good few months and we thought he was the second coming. He's not. This isn't the Frank Robinson deal.

It's also not the Jose Guillen and Wily Mo Pena deals and Kearns is better than both of those guys.


To say he's in the top half of right fielders right now speaks more about the rest of the field than it does Austin Kearns. He's average. Yawn.

Sorry, I don't yawn at good players.


The guy has hit 12 homeruns since we traded him 100 games ago.

Anyone who plays in RFK is going to have their game changed. He plays a solid all-around game, though, back to "moving on," throwing your indifference at Kearns and Lopez doesn't justify having given them away.


That just doesn't seem like anything to be upset over.

You're still missing the point. For the Reds, what Austin Kearns and Felipe Lopez have done since July 13, 2006 is immaterial. What the return for them hasn't done, that's the something to be upset over.


The Nationals are one of the worst teams in baseball. Kearns and Lopez make up 25% of their starting lineup like they did here. Doesn't look like they are helping much.

Kearns is one of the two best players on the team, hardly his fault. Lopez has been dogmeat this season. So what, he wasn't traded this season. If you were taking your own "move on" advice, then I suggest you recognize Kearns and Lopez have moved on to another team and the concern for the Reds is how to "move on" when they didn't get the necessary return for Kearns and Lopez.


Did we give up too much? Probably. I don't like giving up everyday players for an easy to come by position like middle relievers either. But the truth is, Krivsky took a chance and lost, but he didn't lose very big.

I could swear the Reds are 16-24 and sinking. Seems to me two everyday players or two quality starters or two top flight relievers in return for the two everyday players the Reds traded, two assets the Reds currently don't have, is a big deal. When you're not a very good team, like the Reds in recent years, you need to have aspirations beyond running on a hamster wheel.


Did it end up mattering? Not really. We gave up average talent for below average talent.

I've been hearing hollow justifications for why it's all right to give up talent for nothing for years. Starting with the Denny Neagle deal, the Reds made a habit of it. Not coincidentally, the franchise is staring at the very real possiblity of a seventh straight losing season, it's longest skid in 50 years, one of the worst in its history. Does that matter to you? It does to me.

[BuckeyeRedleg]

Nope, but they are in place in Cincy now (other then your mutt), and doing better then the cogs we "gave away and ruined the organiztion with", which is what I was responding to. So, still need some more of your clarification please.

Nope. You responded to this post by M2.

"Austin Kearns ranks as an upper half RF this season. He did so for the Nats last season. I'm missing the "lose" part of that for the Nats."

In no part of that post do I see the words, which you quoted, "gave away and ruined the organiztion with".

So, my point is that you missed the point of his post. He wasn't lamenting that they organization is ruined because of the trade, but that we could have and should have received more than just quantity for the quality we gave up.

In fact, we received zero quality and Hamilton, Griffey, and Gonzo don't change that.

[DTCromer]

Having made a better trade would be making a difference right now.

Like what? Trading for some much needed relief help?




Sorry, I don't yawn at good players.
Good as in . . . hitting .265 w/ 4 HR's this year? Do you consider that good?


Anyone who plays in RFK is going to have their game changed. He plays a solid all-around game, though, back to "moving on," throwing your indifference at Kearns and Lopez doesn't justify having given them away.

FWIW, AK has better power numbers @ RFK this season than on the road.



You're still missing the point. For the Reds, what Austin Kearns and Felipe Lopez have done since July 13, 2006 is immaterial. What the return for them hasn't done, that's the something to be upset over.

I still, for the life of me, can't figure out when the Reds started predicting injuries. GM's injury will be debated for a long time, but BB's is entirely a different story. Give it time instead of just giving up on the guys already. Didn't you just say this:




Kearns is one of the two best players on the team, hardly his fault. Lopez has been dogmeat this season. So what, he wasn't traded this season. If you were taking your own "move on" advice, then I suggest you recognize Kearns and Lopez have moved on to another team and the concern for the Reds is how to "move on" when they didn't get the necessary return for Kearns and Lopez.

Again, it all comes down to your perception if AK or FL were even that good in the first place. You basically just said that Kearns is going to need time to change his game yet you're not going to give our guys time?





I could swear the Reds are 16-24 and sinking. Seems to me two everyday players or two quality starters or two top flight relievers in return for the two everyday players the Reds traded, two assets the Reds currently don't have, is a big deal. When you're not a very good team, like the Reds in recent years, you need to have aspirations beyond running on a hamster wheel.

Yeah, the trade REALLY ruined the way our bullpen has been pitching and the way our offense can't hit lefties. Didn't we have that same problem last year even with those 2 guys in the lineup?



I've been hearing hollow justifications for why it's all right to give up talent for nothing for years. Starting with the Denny Neagle deal, the Reds made a habit of it. Not coincidentally, the franchise is staring at the very real possiblity of a seventh straight losing season, it's longest skid in 50 years, one of the worst in its history. Does that matter to you? It does to me

Of course it matters, but if we have a losing season this year, it's not because of AK and FL. This whole argument comes down to whether or not AK or FL are really that good in the first place and by looking at the numbers, they are average @ best. I don't see how you can say they were that great. I doubt many gm's in the league were calling up Wayne everyday to acquire two "average" baseball players.

[M2]

Like what? Trading for some much needed relief help?

Or some much needed catching help or a much needed starter. It's not like the Reds are short on needs.


Good as in . . . hitting .265 w/ 4 HR's this year? Do you consider that good?

I consider things beyond BA and HR counts and have since before the Reagan administration. You mention "average" lower in the thread. It's important to remember that numerically "average" in MLB means your better than 2/3 of the league (the best players play the most and it skews the league averages their way).


FWIW, AK has better power numbers @ RFK this season than on the road.

I'm aware of that. That's why I mentioned that the park can change your game. You've got to make adjustments to avoid piling up long outs in RFK. You don't unadjust on the road.


I still, for the life of me, can't figure out when the Reds started predicting injuries. GM's injury will be debated for a long time, but BB's is entirely a different story. Give it time instead of just giving up on the guys already.

I haven't given up on Bill Bray. Had the Reds gambled one of Kearns or Lopez for him, I'd have a far different take on the trade. Yes it would be overpaying, but if Bray can become a primary set up man or a closer in the coming years, I don't mind the gamble. Majewski's either lucky or he's meat and it's got nothing to do with health. He was never worth more than a bit player. JimBo did the smart thing by trading Majewski before the odds caught up with him.


Again, it all comes down to your perception if AK or FL were even that good in the first place. You basically just said that Kearns is going to need time to change his game yet you're not going to give our guys time?

AK had a career .820-something OPS. Felipe was an All-Star the previous season and had been an effective leadoff hitter during the first half of 2006 for a high scoring offense. Kearns played well enough to get himself a long term contract. Felipe's played well enough to earn $3.9M this season. They clearly had market value.

And I said nothing of the sort about Kearns or Lopez. I was talking about the present, not the future. I also made it clear that I don't particularly care about their futures from a Reds perspective. They were traded last year.


Yeah, the trade REALLY ruined the way our bullpen has been pitching and the way our offense can't hit lefties. Didn't we have that same problem last year even with those 2 guys in the lineup?

What's your point? That the Reds haven't fixed their problems? That they're still a bad team? My point exactly. My, apparently, kooky idea, is that when you trade young starting players, it should fix your problems, not prolong them, thus the hamster wheel analogy. I'd like the Reds to get off of the one they've been running on this century.


Of course it matters, but if we have a losing season this year, it's not because of AK and FL. This whole argument comes down to whether or not AK or FL are really that good in the first place and by looking at the numbers, they are average @ best. I don't see how you can say they were that great. I doubt many gm's in the league were calling up Wayne everyday to acquire two "average" baseball players.

If the team has a losing season, it's because it's not that good a team. No one, save perhaps folks like you trying to muddle the issue, is talking about whether the Reds would be better right now with Kearns and Lopez. The point is if the Reds want a better team, then when they make trades, they need to get some talent in return -- like Bronson Arroyo for Wily Mo Pena. As I keeping mentioning, imagine if Kearns and Lopez had each fetched something Arroyoesque in value. Why, the Reds might be a serious contender. Blown trades hurt, even if you can't specifically know the opportunity lost.

[MartyFan]

Sheesh how many times have I heard this same song and dance?

:rolleyes:

Not really sure what song it is but I do know that despite the franchises woes over the last decade the people in charge came in only a few weeks before last season. So if it is a song, then it's a new one...at least for me.

I don't agree with other posts on this thread and others that think Special K and Mr. C are misguided or without a plan...I believe they have one and look forward to seeing it unfold over the next couple of years to rebuild this franchise.

Yep, a total homer and undeniable optimist.

:beerme:

[WMR]

Not really sure what song it is but I do know that despite the franchises woes over the last decade the people in charge came in only a few weeks before last season. So if it is a song, then it's a new one...at least for me.

I don't agree with other posts on this thread and others that think Special K and Mr. C are misguided or without a plan...I believe they have one and look forward to seeing it unfold over the next couple of years to rebuild this franchise.

Yep, a total homer and undeniable optimist.

:beerme:

I can respect an optimist.

I disagree with you, but I can respect your optimism.

I've seen too many actions and words from Krivsky and Narron that has just about stamped out my optimism of their ability to be the ones--Narron has been clear for a LONG time--to take this team to the promised land.

[MartyFan]

I can respect an optimist.

I disagree with you, but I can respect your optimism.

I've seen too many actions and words from Krivsky and Narron that has just about stamped out my optimism of their ability to be the ones--Narron has been clear for a LONG time--to take this team to the promised land.

I agree with you in that I am not a fan of Narrons...on the other hand I am a fan of Krivsky...I like him and believe he can build a winning franchise.

[DTCromer]

As I keeping mentioning, imagine if Kearns and Lopez had each fetched something Arroyoesque in value

Again, it comes down to the actual values of the guy in your terms or mine. We'll never agree on that because I never thought the guy had much value on the market and Lopez as well. I'd be willing to bet that Kearns and Lopez weren't exactly "high commodities" on a lot of gm's wish lists. Lopez was regressing back to his Toronto form and Kearns could never stay healthy for a whole season. Even when he did, he never really did impress anyone except for maybe a month or two.

[M2]

Again, it comes down to the actual values of the guy in your terms or mine. We'll never agree on that because I never thought the guy had much value on the market and Lopez as well. I'd be willing to bet that Kearns and Lopez weren't exactly "high commodities" on a lot of gm's wish lists. Lopez was regressing back to his Toronto form and Kearns could never stay healthy for a whole season. Even when he did, he never really did impress anyone except for maybe a month or two.

If Wily Mo Pena was worth Bronson Arroyo, then Austin Kearns and Felipe Lopez, who were more accomplished players, should have had at least his value in the trade market. Look what the Brewers snagged for a two-month rental on Carlos Lee. Look what the Mets got for Xavier Nady. Xavier Nady!

[WMR]

That makes too much sense, M2.

[Topcat]

Not really sure what song it is but I do know that despite the franchises woes over the last decade the people in charge came in only a few weeks before last season. So if it is a song, then it's a new one...at least for me.

I don't agree with other posts on this thread and others that think Special K and Mr. C are misguided or without a plan...I believe they have one and look forward to seeing it unfold over the next couple of years to rebuild this franchise.

Yep, a total homer and undeniable optimist.

:beerme:

No shame in that and face it. The need for bullpen arms was justified and may still see fruition when it counts.

[bounty37h]

Nope. You responded to this post by M2.

"Austin Kearns ranks as an upper half RF this season. He did so for the Nats last season. I'm missing the "lose" part of that for the Nats."

In no part of that post do I see the words, which you quoted, "gave away and ruined the organiztion with".

So, my point is that you missed the point of his post. He wasn't lamenting that they organization is ruined because of the trade, but that we could have and should have received more than just quantity for the quality we gave up.

In fact, we received zero quality and Hamilton, Griffey, and Gonzo don't change that.

We dont know yet that we recieved "zero quality". Yes, we allwould ahve liked more, could we have got more, I dont know, but doubt it from what was available, and what was being asked for that quality. No, we havent seen the quality of what we got yet, at least from teh key parts of the trade, but htey are both on track to join the squad soon, so I feel we should hold judgement until they have a chance to prove themselves, one way or the other.

[shredda2000]

They were traded to get relief help that didn't pan out in a close season.

The Reds are going to be in last place with or without any of these guys.

I wouldn't have made the trade, either, but making it or not making it doesn't change a thing. They stink either way.

I think it's time to move on. Some people don't like the trade. Okay- now what?

It's 2007, and Austin Kearns is still Austin Kearns. He has not morphed into something better. He had a good few months and we thought he was the second coming. He's not. This isn't the Frank Robinson deal.

To say he's in the top half of right fielders right now speaks more about the rest of the field than it does Austin Kearns. He's average. Yawn.

The guy has hit 12 homeruns since we traded him 100 games ago.

12.

That just doesn't seem like anything to be upset over.

Felipe Lopez is still just okay. Not great, not bad, just okay. In fact, he's sort of fallen off the map this year.

The Nationals are one of the worst teams in baseball. Kearns and Lopez make up 25% of their starting lineup like they did here. Doesn't look like they are helping much.

Did we give up too much? Probably. I don't like giving up everyday players for an easy to come by position like middle relievers either. But the truth is, Krivsky took a chance and lost, but he didn't lose very big.

Did it end up mattering? Not really. We gave up average talent for below average talent. It's like trading Juan Pierre for David Weathers. I would rather have Pierre, but if losing either of them is what puts the dagger in your team, you didn't have much of a team to start with.

Put it this way: How many games fewer than 11.5 would we be closer to the Brewers with Kearns' 4 homeruns and .778 OPS?

We can speak all day about why you trade somebody, but when the talent level for everybody involved is so-so, it becomes moot to dissect the deal.

The trade is over, the Cardinals won the World Series last year, Tony Blair has resigned, Sam Adams has been released, Ricky Williams failed another drug test- I mean, the entire world has moved on.

Let's do the same.

:clap:

[BuckeyeRedleg]

We dont know yet that we recieved "zero quality". Yes, we allwould ahve liked more, could we have got more, I dont know, but doubt it from what was available, and what was being asked for that quality. No, we havent seen the quality of what we got yet, at least from teh key parts of the trade, but htey are both on track to join the squad soon, so I feel we should hold judgement until they have a chance to prove themselves, one way or the other.

My point was that simply you missed his point. We are not debating what could become of the trade with Thompson, Bray, and Majewski. The point is that no matter what they do in the future, the trade was bad at the time. It did not help the team for 2006, which is what it indended to do (per Wayne's words) and the return for two above-average position players was weak to put it mildly.

If he wanted super prospects for 2-3 years down the road, he could have waited until the off-season and still rid the team of both players, and received a far better return in the process. He simply panicked and for lack of a better phrase, pooped down his leg.

This is definitley a gross mutilation of a dead horse at the time, but I think many are missing the point and causing more horse beatings to explain the context of the original argument.

This will be the last I speak of this subject. No hard feelings.

[bounty37h]

K, I see your point as well (I used the wrong quote looking back that I started on, just reading so many posts that it all sort of built up), but I also feel if we hadnt made that move-not many other options out there fat that point last season-we needed something to happen to give us a chance. It obviously didnt work out the way we had wanted as fans, but I expect if we hadnt pulled the trigger on that deal and sat idle, and still didn't make postseason, the same fans bashing the trade would have bashed for not doing anything. Either way, we lost though, and I agree with you, time to move on. No hard feelings my way either, of course, I think we are all just frustrated as fans, and that brings out difference in thoughts, opinions of where we went wrong, what we continue to do wrong, and what we would do to change it, but in the end, we are still Reds fans, with a united goal...win!!!

[DTCromer]

If Wily Mo Pena was worth Bronson Arroyo, then Austin Kearns and Felipe Lopez, who were more accomplished players, should have had at least his value in the trade market. Look what the Brewers snagged for a two-month rental on Carlos Lee. Look what the Mets got for Xavier Nady. Xavier Nady!

Oliver Perez and Roberto Hernandez for Nady. . . . are you kidding me? Have you seen Perez's numbers? Aside for one good year, the guy has been hogwash. His only good years he had 196 IP and a 2.99 ERA and 90 IP and 3.50 ERA. After that, the guy was always injured and his ERA has been in the high 5's and 6's. Pittsburgh was desperate to get rid of him because he was injured, just plain sucked, and was up for FA. I must also add that if you ask a lot of Padres fans, they thought Nady had the potential to be pretty damn good, but was just in a bad situation in SD hence the reason he went to NY.

Roberto Hernandez was a reliever and I think you stated that getting relievers should be easy enough to not trade for supposedly good guys like Kearns and Lopez.

Carlos Lee was also traded because he was due for a big contract and Carlos Lee is actually pretty good. So I'm not surprised the Rangers, like dozens of other teams have done, overpay for a guy at the trade deadline.

I'm glad we traded Lopez simply because he was regressing. . . and in a hurry. Kearns was just average. As Dom already stated, if Kearns is in the upper half of the best RF's in the national league, it says more about the quality of RF's than it does Austin.

[M2]

Oliver Perez and Roberto Hernandez for Nady. . . . are you kidding me? Have you seen Perez's numbers? Aside for one good year, the guy has been hogwash. His only good years he had 196 IP and a 2.99 ERA and 90 IP and 3.50 ERA. After that, the guy was always injured and his ERA has been in the high 5's and 6's. Pittsburgh was desperate to get rid of him because he was injured, just plain sucked, and was up for FA. I must also add that if you ask a lot of Padres fans, they thought Nady had the potential to be pretty damn good, but was just in a bad situation in SD hence the reason he went to NY.

I suggest you take a look at what Oliver Perez is doing this season. Seems to be straightened out. What the Mets did was trade a below average corner OF for a 25-year-old LHP who oozes stuff and is just now coming into what should be the productive part of his career. What the Mets did was catch a rising star. BTW, it's what the Reds did Arroyo and Harang (though obviously they had to wait a year and half for Harang). You make deals like Perez for Nady and John Maine for Kris Benson and you could find yourself with pretty good ballclub.


Carlos Lee was also traded because he was due for a big contract and Carlos Lee is actually pretty good. So I'm not surprised the Rangers, like dozens of other teams have done, overpay for a guy at the trade deadline.

But apparently the Reds can't get anyone to overpay for their guys. If only the Reds could do what other clubs do.


I'm glad we traded Lopez simply because he was regressing. . . and in a hurry. Kearns was just average. As Dom already stated, if Kearns is in the upper half of the best RF's in the national league, it says more about the quality of RF's than it does Austin.

If the state of RFs in MLB is so poor then, per the laws of supply and demand, wouldn't that make a solid RF like Kearns more valuable?

And Lopez didn't regress any extra from the time he was traded to the end of the 2006 season. There was no reason to deal him on that day for so low a price.

[reds44]

"If I go up there and do half of what I did (in 2005 when he was with Washington), then I'd be happy ... and shove it up everybody's ass."


Bumped for those in the ORG looking for it.

Guess not Gary.

[Screwball]

I like his fire and think he has good stuff, but man, he's been nothing short of atrocious ever since putting on a Reds uniform. He might've had a dead arm last year, and that was a decent enough excuse, but he's been just as bad - if not worse - this year. I gotta think it's all between the ears with him. He doesn't get a call and walks a guy or gives up a "lucky" bloop single and then he implodes from there. I'm not sure if we'll ever see him as the effective reliever he was with Washington because if any player is in need of a change of scenery, it'd be Gary Majewski.

[nate]

Bumped for those in the ORG looking for it.

Guess not Gary.

Well, to be fair, he didn't specify "who" he wanted to make the intrusion with.

I guess we're finding out now, though!