5/20 Reds vs. Indians

[Petitt33]

Reds
Freel 3b
Hopper cf
Griffey rf
Phillips 2b
Dunn lf
Conine dh
Hatteberg 1b
Castro ss
Moeller c

Harang p

Indians
Sizemore cf
Blake 3b
Hafner 1b
Martinez dh
Peralta ss
Delluci lf
Michaels rf
Barfield 2b
Shoppach c

Byrd p

[Matt700wlw]

Conine AND Hatteberg.....scrappiness galore!!


:D

[keeganbrick]

For the last time, you cannot have Moeller and Castro in the same lineup!! Finally puts Dunn ahead of Conine but then benches Ross.

[Matt700wlw]

For the last time, you cannot have Moeller and Castro in the same lineup!! Finally puts Dunn ahead of Conine but then benches Ross.

I think Ross had a good game or something yesterday...

[membengal]

oooof. Really, ooof.

[captainmorgan07]

my only complaint about this lineup is that moeller and castro are in it other than that i like dunn in the 5 hole with conine and hatteberg behind him

[edabbs44]

The 5-8 spots just made me laugh out loud.

Good thing I have Byrd in my fantasy lineup this week.

[oneupper]

If Valentin is not going to catch or play DH against RHP...why are we carrying him on the roster?

[Degenerate39]

Narron should be slapepd

[redsupport]

keep playing castro , he has a chance to exlipse the peformance of Kelly Paris

[KronoRed]

If Valentin is not going to catch or play DH against RHP...why are we carrying him on the roster?

He's the PH, but only against lefties, and even then he's not so great.

[keeganbrick]

The game is underway guys.....

[Reds Fanatic]

Freel gounds out to 3rd. 1 out.

[Degenerate39]

Freel grounds out to 3rd.

[Degenerate39]

Hopper grounds out to 2nd. 2 outs

[Degenerate39]

Griffey flys out to left. 3 outs

[Degenerate39]

Sizemore strikes out. 1 out

Harang's first K

[George Foster]

i'm not to optimistic about Harrang today...hope I'm wrong.

[Matt700wlw]

That was a nice pitch....the bottom fell out of that one

[vaticanplum]

Reds
Freel 3b
Hopper cf
Griffey rf
Phillips 2b
Dunn lf
Conine dh
Hatteberg 1b
Castro ss
Moeller c


OMG. Wow. The kids playing wiffle ball next door to me could put together a better lineup than that if I walked over right now and had them pull names out of a hat.

[Matt700wlw]

i'm not to optimistic about Harrang today...hope I'm wrong.

Why?

If it makes you feel better, he had his normal day to throw at San Diego State while he was away...

[Degenerate39]

Blake doubles to left.

[Matt700wlw]

Dunn screws up again - could have held Blake to a single.

[Degenerate39]

i'm not to optimistic about Harrang today...hope I'm wrong.

I'm not either. I just have one of those feelings.

[George Foster]

Dunn.....wow...

[Wheelhouse]

The little things...

[George Foster]

Dunn screws up again - could have held Blake to a single.

If that's not a error, they should stop having them as a ML statistic.

[Matt700wlw]

If that's not a error, they should stop having them as a ML statistic.

I don't think it is, but should be...

[keeganbrick]

If that's not a error, they should stop having them as a ML statistic.

Mental miscue...

[Wheelhouse]

But why should he hustle the ball to the cutoff man when there's a 90% chance he already has a double anyway? (sarcasm)

[Degenerate39]

Hafner making Harang throw alot of pitches this AB

[Matt700wlw]

Showdown starts tomorrow...the 2 worst teams in baseball.

Should be a barn burner!!

[Degenerate39]

What a play

[Reds Fanatic]

Nice play by Harang. A 1-5-6-1 fielder's choice.

[Wheelhouse]

Always nice to find those little moments when the ball is in play when you can relax Dunner...

[Degenerate39]

Martinez flys out to center. 3 outs

[Degenerate39]

21 pitches that inning for Harang

[Big Klu]

Reds
Freel 3b
Hopper cf
Griffey rf
Phillips 2b
Dunn lf
Conine dh
Hatteberg 1b
Castro ss
Moeller c

Harang p


Very close to the lineup I predicted after last night's game. For the record I predicted:

Freel cf
Phillips 2b
Griffey rf
Dunn lf
Conine dh
Hatteberg 1b
Keppinger 3b
Ross c
Castro ss

Of course, that was before Keppinger was optioned to Louisville to make room for Harang. With that move made, I would have moved Freel to 3B and started Hopper in CF, making the lineup:

Freel 3b
Phillips 2b
Griffey rf
Dunn lf
Conine dh
Hatteberg 1b
Hopper cf
Ross c
Castro ss

I feel that this would be the best lineup, but today's lineup is not far off of that one.

[Matt700wlw]

21 pitches that inning for Harang

21 game hitting streak for Brandon on the line...

[Matt700wlw]

I still have a hard time believing Brandon Phillips was a problem in Cleveland.....


Make it 22

:phillips:

:jump:

[Reds Fanatic]

Phillips homers!!! 22 game hit streak.

[Degenerate39]

BP homers!

22 game hit streak.

1-0 Reds

[captainmorgan07]

this kid is dialed in

[Matt700wlw]

This kid is something else!!

He's only scratched the surface.....what a pickup!

[Degenerate39]

What a way to stick it to your former team

[Tom Servo]

BP can't be stopped.

[Matt700wlw]

Phillips and Junior should be on the All-Star team

[oneupper]

INDIANSZONE.com lamenting letting Brandon go.

[Degenerate39]

Dunn flys out to center. 1 out

[Degenerate39]

INDIANSZONE.com lamenting letting Brandon go.

:laugh:

[Matt700wlw]

Phillips = MVP

[Degenerate39]

Conine singles to short

[Big Klu]

OMG. Wow. The kids playing wiffle ball next door to me could put together a better lineup than that if I walked over right now and had them pull names out of a hat.

Other than starting Ross instead of Moeller (a minor upgrade), and moving Phillips to the #2 spot, Dunn-Conine-Hatteberg to #4-5-6, and dropping Hopper to #7 (all relatively minor moves, as well), what could they do to make the lineup that much better? (Remember, Gonzalez needs a day off, so Castro is going to start today.)

[George Foster]

Phillips = MVP


we can argue about the starting line-up, but batting Phillips 4th right now is the right move.

[Matt700wlw]

The old guys!!

[Degenerate39]

Hatte doubles off the rightfield wall.

[Reds Fanatic]

Hatteberg doubles off the top of the wall in right. 2nd and 3rd with 1 out.

[captainmorgan07]

back to back hit for the platoon fella's runners at second and third

[Big Klu]

Phillips homers!!! 22 game hit streak.

Halfway to Pete!

[George Foster]

now the black hole of the line-up

[Tom Servo]

Scrappy sac fly.

[Matt700wlw]

The scrapfactor continues...

[Reds Fanatic]

Castro drives in a run with a sac. fly 2-0 Reds!

[Degenerate39]

Castro with a sac fly

2-0 Reds

[keeganbrick]

:redszone: Castro Sac fly.

[Reds Fanatic]

Halfway to Pete!
3rd longest hit streak in Reds history behind Pete's 44 games and Casey's 29 games.

[Big Klu]

back to back hit for the platoon fella's runners at second and third

It was a good idea to get both of them in the lineup, what with the DH and all.

[CrackerJack]

BP's a keeper

[vaticanplum]

Other than starting Ross instead of Moeller (a minor upgrade), and moving Phillips to the #2 spot, Dunn-Conine-Hatteberg to #4-5-6, and dropping Hopper to #7 (all relatively minor moves, as well), what could they do to make the lineup that much better? (Remember, Gonzalez needs a day off, so Castro is going to start today.)

Frankly, I think that's enough. I don't think those are all minor moves, especially Hopper. That's a completely different lineup you just constructed, and one I would approve.

But they're proving me wrong at the moment so what can I say.

[Big Klu]

3rd longest hit streak in Reds history behind Pete's 44 games and Casey's 29 games.

I thought it was Morris with 29 games.

[oneupper]

It was a good idea to get both of them in the lineup, what with the DH and all.

Conine was 6 for 14 vs Byrd. I guess that's why Narron gave him the nod over Valentin.

[Degenerate39]

Chad strikes out. 3 outs

[jimbo]

It was a good idea to get both of them in the lineup, what with the DH and all.

They both have had past success against Byrd, so I'm sure that is the main reason Narron wanted to get them both in.

Looks like oneupper beat me to it.

[OnBaseMachine]

Juan Castro got a belt-high 86 mph fastball and all he could do was hit a weak flyball. That shows you how bad the guy really is.

[Reds Fanatic]

I thought it was Morris with 29 games.
Yeah that right it is Morris.

[Matt700wlw]

Brandon Phillips is the best move Krivsky has made, with Arroyo a very close second.

[Big Klu]

Conine was 6 for 14 vs Byrd. I guess that's why Narron gave him the nod over Valentin.

Or maybe because Conine is, and always has been, just a better player than Valentin. :)

[Degenerate39]

Brandon Phillips is the best move Krivsky has made, with Arroyo a very close second.

Hamilton a close 3rd?

[Degenerate39]

Peralta singles to left

[Matt700wlw]

I thought it was Morris with 29 games.

Or Hal McCoy as Lance mistakingly said earlier :lol:

[George Foster]

Yeah that right it is Morris.

they said on FSN that Casey had the 2nd longest hit steak for the Reds.

[Matt700wlw]

Hamilton a close 3rd?

He may be tied for a close second.....

[jimbo]

Juan Castro got a belt-high 86 mph fastball and all he could do was hit a weak flyball. That shows you how bad the guy really is.

He got it in the air, in the outfield, and scored the run. He did his job.

[Matt700wlw]

He got it in the air, in the outfield, and scored the run. He did his job.

Yeah, pretty much.

I don't care how you score runs, just score them.

[Big Klu]

Or Hal McCoy as Lance mistakingly said earlier :lol:

A lot of seeing-eye base hits. (Oh, no...I didn't say that!) :cool:

[Degenerate39]

Dellucci flys out to right. 1 out

[George Foster]

Harrang is hitting their bats pretty hard right now.

[Matt700wlw]

Edwin is tearing the cover off the ball in AAA...but has 3 errors.


If offensively, he has turned it around, I can deal with a few errors......

[Degenerate39]

Michaels strikes out. 2 outs

Harang's 2nd K

[Matt700wlw]

The Edwin to first/Edwin traded discussions continue...

[Degenerate39]

If offensively, he has turned it around, I can deal with a few errors......

Completely agree

[jimbo]

The Edwin to first/Edwin traded discussions continue...

Exactly who is discussing it?

[Matt700wlw]

Exactly who is discussing it?

Marty, Thom, and the MLB.com guy (Sheldon?)

[Degenerate39]

Barfield flys out to center. 3 outs

[Degenerate39]

Freel singles to center

[Reds Fanatic]

they said on FSN that Casey had the 2nd longest hit steak for the Reds.

Actually that whole graphic they had up is wrong. These are the longest hit streaks in Reds history.

CINCINNATI REDS

Player Year Streak

Pete Rose 1978 44
Elmer Smith 1898 30
Hal Morris 1996 29
Edd Roush 1920 27
Edd Roush 1924 27
Vada Pinson 1965 27
Rube Bressler 1927 25
Pete Rose 1967 25
Cy Seymour 1903 24
Hughie Critz 1928 24
Tommy Harper 1966 24

[Matt700wlw]

Elmer Smith was the man.

[texasdave]

Got to the game thread late but just wanted to add that lineup construction is not really all that important. So why moan about it every game? Most people would agree that the Reds do not exactly have all-world offensive talent on this team. They are probably around league average. OPS for the National League is .726. The Reds OPS is a tick above average at .736. So Narron's inexcusable lineups must be pulling them down in Runs Scored per game, right? Average runs per game scored per team in the NL is 4.41. Once again the Reds are slightly above average at 4.53. They score about how many runs per game that you would expect them to score. I suppose they do this in spite of JN. So if JN is miserable at constructing lineups then most of the managers in the league have to be right there with him.

[Tom Servo]

gawd, Freel.

[Matt700wlw]

Well, that stinks...

[Reds Fanatic]

Freel gets picked off 2nd.

[OnBaseMachine]

Ryan Freel is a dumbarse. I like the guy but he is a dumb baseball player. He is killing this team with his baserunning blunders.

[Degenerate39]

Hopper sac bunts Freel to 2nd.

Freel picked off at 2nd. 2 outs

[keeganbrick]

Got to the game thread late but just wanted to add that lineup construction is not really all that important. So why moan about it every game? Most people would agree that the Reds do not exactly have all-world offensive talent on this team. They are probably around league average. OPS for the National League is .726. The Reds OPS is a tick above average at .736. So Narron's inexcusable lineups must be pulling them down in Runs Scored per game, right? Average runs per game scored per team in the NL is 4.41. Once again the Reds are slightly above average at 4.53. They score about how many runs per game that you would expect them to score. I suppose they do this in spite of JN. So if JN is miserable at constructing lineups then most of the managers in the league have to be right there with him.

There are 2 easy outs in a row at the bottom of the lineup. Dont know how you cant start both Castro and Moeller in the same game (2nd time in 3 games)

[Degenerate39]

Griffey strikes out. 3 outs

[pahster]

At this point, I almost expect Freel to get picked off or CS when he gets on base.

[oneupper]

Hopper sac bunts Freel to 2nd.

Freel picked off at 2nd. 2 outs

Hopper's bunt made no sense...you're up 2, its early...Byrd is getting hit.

About Freel...what can you say...he's a pickoff target and teams know it really well by now.

[Degenerate39]

Only the Reds

[keeganbrick]

What in the world.

[Spring~Fields]

Got to the game thread late but just wanted to add that lineup construction is not really all that important. So why moan about it every game?

I agree that lineup construction "is not really all that important".

Why bother changing it everyday because the manager is just spinning his wheels when it really isn't all that important.

[Matt700wlw]

That doesn't happen very often...

[Matt700wlw]

I agree that lineup construction "is not really all that important".

Why bother changing it everyday because the manager is just spinning his wheels when it really isn't all that important.

It's all about matchups...

[Reds Fanatic]

Phillips loses the ball and the Indians get a gift double.

[OnBaseMachine]

More great defense by the Reds allows a leadoff double. That's not Harang's fault if a run scores this inning.

[KronoRed]

Nice.

[Degenerate39]

Ground out to 1st base. 1 out

[Degenerate39]

Blake ground out to short. 2 outs.

2-1 Reds

[OnBaseMachine]

Should have been a 1-2-3 inning, instead the Indians get a run on a groundout. Harang has been very unlucky this year.

[Degenerate39]

Hafner singles to left

[Matt700wlw]

Should have been a 1-2-3 inning, instead the Indians get a run on a groundout. Harang has been very unlucky this year.

Yet he's still won 5 games despite a high ERA...


Too bad Arroyo can't get the same offensive help

[texasdave]

I agree that lineup construction "is not really all that important".

Why bother changing it everyday because the manager is just spinning his wheels when it really isn't all that important.

Didn't I see once that JN writes out his lineup card in calligraphy? Maybe he writes out the names of the players that are playing each particular game in the order that is most aesthetically pleasing? Hell, I don't know why or how he comes up with his lineups. I do know that it isn't all that important. Not important enough that there has to be a couple dozen posts each game knocking the lineup. If there was some magical formula to maximize the effectiveness of a lineup I think JN would have found it by now, considering that Jerry has tried just about every conceivable option.

[Degenerate39]

Martinez flys out to right. 3 outs

[reds44]

Edwin is hitting .390 in AAA.

[Spring~Fields]

Didn't I see once that JN writes out his lineup card in calligraphy? Maybe he writes out the names of the players that are playing each particular game in the order that is most aesthetically pleasing? Hell, I don't know why or how he comes up with his lineups. I do know that it isn't all that important. Not important enough that there has to be a couple dozen posts each game knocking the lineup. If there was some magical formula to maximize the effectiveness of a lineup I think JN would have found it by now, considering that Jerry has tried just about every conceivable option.

I don't disagree with you.

[Degenerate39]

BP grounds out to 3rd

[Degenerate39]

Dunn strikes out for the 59th time this season. 2 outs

[keeganbrick]

Dunn looks so bad right now.

[Degenerate39]

Conine flys out to right. 3 outs

[Matt700wlw]

Dunn strikes out for the 59th time this season. 2 outs

59? Really?

Ouch...

[Reds Fanatic]

59? Really?

Ouch...
Yeah he leads the league in strikeouts.

[DTCromer]

Yeah he leads the league in strikeouts.

Strikeouts don't matter though. ;)

[Degenerate39]

Peralta homers

2-2

[Reds Fanatic]

Peralta with a long home run. Tie game 2-2.

[CTA513]

Cut Harang.

[Matt700wlw]

So we start from scratch...

[OnBaseMachine]

Dunn has a 1.361 OPS this year in the #2 spot where he has protection.

[Degenerate39]

Dunn has a 1.361 OPS this year in the #2 spot where he has protection.

If only JN knew that

[Matt700wlw]

Dunn has a 1.361 OPS this year in the #2 spot where he has protection.

As much as he really not a #2 hitter, it does seem to work

[KronoRed]

Dunn has a 1.361 OPS this year in the #2 spot where he has protection.

Pfft stats...those are all poppycock.;)

[Degenerate39]

A gold glover in the stands

[Spring~Fields]

Strikeouts don't matter though. ;)

Not numerically or in the data points that create stats, one out is equal to another out.

[Degenerate39]

Harang gives up a walk

[Falls City Beer]

Harang gives up a walk

Big no-no against this lineup.

[Degenerate39]

Michaels with an infield single

[Reds Fanatic]

Dunn had great stats last year as well batting 2nd. But Narron rarely puts him batting 2nd.

[Degenerate39]

Wild pitch everyone advances

[Reds Fanatic]

Wild pitch makes it runners on 2nd and 3rd.

[Matt700wlw]

This isn't going well...

[DTCromer]

Dunn has a 1.361 OPS this year in the #2 spot where he has protection.

He has a 1.059 OBP in that #6 spot as well with much less protection. Also, he strikesout about the same in both spots. He also strikes out the least in the #3 spot.

[Reds Fanatic]

The wheels have fallen off for Harang. A 2 run double makes it 4-2 Indians.

[Falls City Beer]

Jason "Shawn" Michaels

[Falls City Beer]

Harang's having a terrible season. It's officially time to worry about him.

[OnBaseMachine]

He has a 1.059 OBP in that #6 spot as well with much less protection. Also, he strikesout about the same in both spots. He also strikes out the least in the #3 spot.

He has a 8 bb/9 k ratio in the #2 spot and 6 bb/18 k in the #6 spot. That tells me he is chasing more bad pitches in the six spot due to no protection.

[Matt700wlw]

Oh, Juan...

[Reds Fanatic]

Another hit. 5-2 Indians.

[CTA513]

Harang on his way to 5-2.

[reds44]

Woohoo.

[KronoRed]

It's ok everyone, the pen will keep it close.

[OnBaseMachine]

Juan Castro is awful. A routine groundball and yet it's a single because of that statue.

And no, Aaron Harang is not having a terrible season. That is laughable FCB.

[edabbs44]

He has a 1.059 OBP in that #6 spot as well with much less protection. Also, he strikesout about the same in both spots. He also strikes out the least in the #3 spot.

Stop telling the truth.

[Falls City Beer]

And no, Aaron Harang is not having a terrible season. That is laughable FCB.

Yes, he is. And certainly he is relative to the chunk of payroll he'll be taking up.

[OnBaseMachine]

Stop telling the truth.

He never started telling the truth so how can he stop?

[Reds Fanatic]

Another hit and finally they start the bullpen up.

[Spring~Fields]

It's ok everyone, the pen will keep it close.

Are you threatening us ?

:help: :laugh:

[Mitri]

I was just thinking, it is officially time to start worryiing about Harang.
I know I'm concerned.

[reds44]

And no, Aaron Harang is not having a terrible season. That is laughable FCB.
He's having an awful season. Just because he is gettin uber run support, does not change the fact he is nothing less then bad.

[edabbs44]

He has a 8 bb/9 k ratio in the #2 spot and 6 bb/18 k in the #6 spot. That tells me he is chasing more bad pitches in the six spot due to no protection.

It's never Dunn's fault.

A quick scan of his career numbers says that he has his worst K/BB ratio in the 2nd spot in the order. But there's probably some excuse that's beyond Dunn's control for that as well.

[reds44]

It's never Dunn's fault.

A quick scan of his career numbers says that he has his worst K/BB ratio in the 2nd spot in the order. But there's probably some excuse that's beyond Dunn's control for that as well.
Uh huh. People always try to make excuses for Dunn. It's never his fault.

[edabbs44]

I was just thinking, it is officially time to start worryiing about Harang.
I know I'm concerned.

Carroll on ESPN's fantasy chat said there has been whispers about his elbow.

[reds44]

Carroll on ESPN's fantasy chat said there has been whispers about his elbow.
Oh well that's great news.

:help:

[Matt700wlw]

Carroll on ESPN's fantasy chat said there has been whispers about his elbow.

Maybe somebody needs to speak louder if that's the case, to avoid permanent damage.

[Reds Fanatic]

Nice throw by Moeller to throw out the runner at 2nd.

[CTA513]

It's never Dunn's fault.



:laugh:

[Falls City Beer]

Carroll on ESPN's fantasy chat said there has been whispers about his elbow.

HelLOOO, 110 losses.

[OnBaseMachine]

Yes, he is. And certainly he is relative to the chunk of payroll he'll be taking up.

For a guy who always talks about OPSagainst and how it's a true sign of how well a pitcher is doing, you sure are ignoring Harang. Harang has allowed onyl four homeruns in 59 innings, has a strong 15 bb/53 k rate, a solid 1.27 whip, and a very good .692 OPS against and yet you say he is having a terrible season. Don't let the facts get in the way of a good rant FCB. I'm sure if this were Wainwright we were talking about you would be defending him.

[Eric_Davis]

Get him out of there Narron before the game is completely lost. Harang stinks today.

[RBA]

Got a break there. Sizemore was clearly safe.

[reds44]

For a guy who always talks about OPSagainst and how it's a true sign of how well a pitcher is doing, you sure are ignoring Harang. Harang has allowed onyl four homeruns in 59 innings, has a strong 15 bb/53 k rate, a solid 1.27 whip, and a very good .692 OPS against and yet you say he is having a terrible season. Don't let the facts get in the way of a good rant FCB. I'm sure if this were Wainwright we were talking about you would be defending him.
And then there is that clever thing called ERA.

[DTCromer]

He has a 8 bb/9 k ratio in the #2 spot and 6 bb/18 k in the #6 spot. That tells me he is chasing more bad pitches in the six spot due to no protection.


Yeah I agree that I'd rather have him in the #2 or #5 hole than 6. I was just point out that although his walks are down in the #6 hole, his OBP is fairly close to the same as #6 hole.

If Hamilton were healthy and Edwin were back up here, I'd love to see Dunn in the #5 slot with Edwin protecting him.

I'd much rather have Edwin than David Ross, Juan Castro, or some other schmuck behind Dunn.

[jojo]

Got a break there. Sizemore was clearly safe.

yep, that changed the whole inning and possibly the game...

[Eric_Davis]

For a guy who always talks about OPSagainst and how it's a true sign of how well a pitcher is doing, you sure are ignoring Harang. Harang has allowed onyl four homeruns in 59 innings, has a strong 15 bb/53 k rate, a solid 1.27 whip, and a very good .692 OPS against and yet you say he is having a terrible season. Don't let the facts get in the way of a good rant FCB. I'm sure if this were Wainwright we were talking about you would be defending him.


On the year Harang has pitched a lot better than his ERA suggests....a lot lot better. But today and especially this inning is not one of those times. He's pitching as bad as his ERA shows today. Leadoff hits every single inning...some for extra bases. He's getting pounded.

[Falls City Beer]

For a guy who always talks about OPSagainst and how it's a true sign of how well a pitcher is doing, you sure are ignoring Harang. Harang has allowed onyl four homeruns in 59 innings, has a strong 15 bb/53 k rate, a solid 1.27 whip, and a very good .692 OPS against and yet you say he is having a terrible season. Don't let the facts get in the way of a good rant FCB. I'm sure if this were Wainwright we were talking about you would be defending him.

Those numbers were before today--one great start in the biggest stadium in the majors against one of the lamest offenses in the majors has done a bunch to even out his numbers, but they're crashing back again as we speak.

[reds44]

Yeah I agree that I'd rather have him in the #2 or #5 hole than 6. I was just point out that although his walks are down in the #6 hole, his OBP is fairly close to the same as #6 hole.

If Hamilton were healthy and Edwin were back up here, I'd love to see Dunn in the #5 slot with Edwin protecting him.

I'd much rather have Edwin than David Ross, Juan Castro, or some other schmuck behind Dunn.
If Dunn is hitting 5th, and Edwin 6th, who hits 4th?

[CTA513]

Trade Harang.

[reds44]

On the year Harang has pitched a lot better than his ERA suggests....a lot lot better. But today and especially this inning is not one of those times. He's pitching as bad as his ERA shows today. Leadoff hits every single inning...some for extra bases. He's getting pounded.
Has he? I think pitching at yellowstone last week made his ERA look better then it really is.

[oneupper]

That Hopper bunt and Freel's PO lookin real good right now.

[Falls City Beer]

Trade Harang.

Wrong time. Should have done it in the offseason. Though it would be nice to get his numbers into reasonable shape for July 31.

[Reds Fanatic]

Infield hit for Hatteberg to lead off the inning.

[OnBaseMachine]

And then there is that clever thing called ERA.

Yup. Brandon Phillips misplaying a flyball into a double and Juan Castro's statue-esque range is Harang's fault. What the hell was I thinking.

[Eric_Davis]

Carroll on ESPN's fantasy chat said there has been whispers about his elbow. Those are unsubstantiated rumors made up by people who are looking for an excuse as to why his ERA is so high. But if you look at his other numbers (not his 5-1 record), he's pitching slightly worse than would be expected. It will be nice when he has a hot stretch where his pitching on the year will balance itself out to meet his normal year.

[Matt700wlw]

Wrong time. Should have done it in the offseason. Though it would be nice to get his numbers into reasonable shape for July 31.

You're serious....trade Harang.

Wow...

A team that has been desperate for pitching for years upon years and you want to trade that away.


I'm glad you're not the GM.

[reds44]

Yup. Brandon Phillips misplaying a flyball into a double and Juan Castro's statue-esque range is Harang's fault. What the hell was I thinking.
No SS makes that play.

Players make mistakes, it happens sometimes.

Pitching at Petco made his ERA look better then it is.

I don't want us to trade Harang, but he's pitching like crap and has been most of the year.

[guttle11]

This thread is nearing implosion status.

[oneupper]

I'm not worried about Harang.

[CTA513]

Wrong time. Should have done it in the offseason. Though it would be nice to get his numbers into reasonable shape for July 31.

Forget trading him, just cut him.

[Matt700wlw]

This thread is nearing implosion status.

Bullpen-like

[edabbs44]

Maybe somebody needs to speak louder if that's the case, to avoid permanent damage.

From May 11ths chat:

Brad, Columbus OH: I am hearing rumors about Aaron Harang and elbow issues. Any truth to this?

Will Carroll: I have heard the rumors and tried to see if there's any fire behind the smoke, but have yet to see any flames.

[Falls City Beer]

You're serious....trade Harang.

Wow...

A team that has been desperate for pitching for years upon years and you want to trade that away.


I'm glad you're not the GM.

As I've said multiple times, this team is in such sad shape that they've reached the point of desperation. They must start bringing back not just quality arm (singular) but quality arms (plural). The only thing that will do that is Arroyo, Dunn, and Harang.

[OnBaseMachine]

No SS makes that play.

Players make mistakes, it happens sometimes.

Pitching at Petco made his ERA look better then it is.

I don't want us to trade Harang, but he's pitching like crap and has been most of the year.

Every SS makes that play. Every SS except Castro. We must not have been watching the same play.

[CTA513]

Its good to hear the Reds announcers get excited about other teams making plays against the Reds.

[Eric_Davis]

Dunn had great stats last year as well batting 2nd. But Narron rarely puts him batting 2nd. But, Narron batted him 2nd or you wouldn't have known that.

And if you say that he didn't bat him enough there, then you don't have a large enough sample size to make an argument that he did well there last year.

But, if you say that there was a large enough sample size, then Narron did bat him enough in that spot.

[reds44]

Phil Dumatrait getting lit up in AAA for his 2nd consectutive start.

[Reds Fanatic]

Base hit for Freel. 1st and 2nd with 2 outs.

[Matt700wlw]

As I've said multiple times, this team is in such sad shape that they've reached the point of desperation. The must start bringing back not just quality arm (singular) but quality arms (plural). The only thing that will do that is Arroyo, Dunn, and Harang.

Arroyo and Harang....2 quality ARMS....

if you give up 2 quality arms for 2 quality arms, then what exactly are you doing?

Or do you want to give up 2 quality arms for 4 or 5 non-proven minor league arms that may never pan out?

[guttle11]

The people who say Harang has been "terrible" are most likely the same people who overrated him after last year.

He'll be fine, and should settle back into his norm before long.

[jojo]

On the year Harang has pitched a lot better than his ERA suggests....a lot lot better. But today and especially this inning is not one of those times. He's pitching as bad as his ERA shows today. Leadoff hits every single inning...some for extra bases. He's getting pounded.

I agree...his xFIP is a very solid 3.56 for the year... his peripherals are on par with last season.... he's been a bit hit unlucky and his LOB% is a career low...these are not sins he should be held accountable for.... fortunately he's been homer lucky.

[OnBaseMachine]

Btw, if we are going to discount Harang's great start in the pitcher friendly Petco Park, then does that mean we can exclude his bad starts in hitters parks?

Freel singles to set up another pickoff.

[Stormy]

Yes, he is. And certainly he is relative to the chunk of payroll he'll be taking up.

This will be the 6th time Harang has surrendered 5 Earned Runs, or more, in a mere 10 Starts (but his xERA shows that he's better than his raw numbers). And what's somewhat more worrisome is the most recent pattern of allowing 5+ER in 4 of his last 5, compounded by the fact that he's usually being hit hard and often in the process of allowing these runs. A few empirical barometers and 'peripherals' are becoming a little troubling, but I think Harang can trend back in the right direction with a few tweaks to his approach.

It doesn't help to have one of the least competent defenses in baseball behind you, nor a manager with seemingly no feel for a pitcher's tipping point in any given start. A lot of negative factors surround Harang that are beyond his control, but he's better than the mediocrity we've seen of late.

Off Topic: I lay this mess of a team squarely at Krivsky's feet, as he's seemingly offset every astute, positive transaction, with a handful of negative manuevers and philosophical blunders. However, even though this team's woes lie far beyond the reach of any manager to remedy... man, Narron seems to have precious little grasp of any aspect of properly utilizing his decidely limited personnel IMO.

[Reds Fanatic]

Hopper's broken bat ground out ends the inning. 5-2 Indians mid 5th.

[DTCromer]

If Dunn is hitting 5th, and Edwin 6th, who hits 4th?

I've already changed my mind. . sorta.

LHP:
Freel
Dunn
Phillips
Griffey
Edwin
Hatteberg
Gonzo
Ross
Pitcher

RHP:
Hamilton
Phillips
Griffey
Conine
Dunn
Edwin
Gonzo
Ross
Pitcher

The only way Castro/Moeller/Hopper should be in the same lineup together is if Freel/Hamilton/Edwin are all injured/sent down at the same time. It's ridiculous to have Castro starting at all. Unfortunately, we coudln't play Josh this series.

[jojo]

Btw, if we are going to discount Harang's great start in the pitcher friendly Petco Park, then does that mean we can exclude his bad starts in hitters parks?

Freel singles to set up another pickoff.

BTW, Cleveland is a great pitcher's park too.

[OnBaseMachine]

After going back and looking through the game logs I have decided to exclude three of Harang's bad starts this year due to cold weathers or small ballparks. I believe that drops his ERA down below 3.00 for the season, putting him in the thick of the Cy Young race.

[guttle11]

The main thing I've noticed about Harang this year is the opponents making him work much harder. He seems to be getting to the 100 mark much earlier than last year. Bronson is struggling with the same thing.

I put the blame on that on the lack of a bullpen. There's no incentive to attack those guys this year. Just make them work and get to the bullpen ASAP. If they happen to give you something to hit, hit it, otherwise work the count. Their off the plate stuff isn't drawing the swings it did last year.

[Marc D]

Arroyo and Harang....2 quality ARMS....

if you give up 2 quality arms for 2 quality arms, then what exactly are you doing?

Or do you want to give up 2 quality arms for 4 or 5 non-proven minor league arms that may never pan out?


For 4-5 prospects that you can add to the Baily, Votto, Bruce savior squad.

Thats the only viable way to rebuild a franchise in the shape Cincy is in. We have a few good prospects of our own but no depth. Long term, sustainible success will only come whne we have a ML system that is deep and talented.

The alternative to actually biting the bullet and starting to rebuild has played out in front of our very eyes for the past 7 years. I'm not a big fan of it.

[Falls City Beer]

Arroyo and Harang....2 quality ARMS....

if you give up 2 quality arms for 2 quality arms, then what exactly are you doing?

Or do you want to give up 2 quality arms for 4 or 5 non-proven minor league arms that may never pan out?

I would hope that Harang and Arroyo EACH would bring back at least 2 quality arms. I'd rather have three or four Homer Baileys lying around than just one. So when two fizzle out (like they always do, minor leaguers), you still have two left--cheap, and with higher ceilings than either Arroyo or Harang.

But I don't trust Krivsky making those trades.

[Eric_Davis]

Nice throw by Moeller to throw out the runner at 2nd.

It took a while, but I found a positive post.

[oneupper]

Harang is upset about all the speculation about him on REDSZONE.com :D

[Falls City Beer]

The main thing I've noticed about Harang this year is the opponents making him work much harder. He seems to be getting to the 100 mark much earlier than last year. Bronson is struggling with the same thing.

I put the blame on that on the lack of a bullpen. There's no incentive to attack those guys this year. Just make them work and get to the bullpen ASAP. If they happen to give you something to hit, hit it, otherwise work the count. Their off the plate stuff isn't drawing the swings it did last year.

His velocity's down by 2 or 3 miles; he looks incredibly uncomfortable on the mound too. Working slowly and uneasily.

[Big Klu]

I've already changed my mind. . sorta.

LHP:
Freel
Dunn
Phillips
Griffey
Edwin
Hatteberg
Gonzo
Ross
Pitcher

RHP:
Hamilton
Phillips
Griffey
Conine
Dunn
Edwin
Gonzo
Ross
Pitcher

The only way Castro/Moeller/Hopper should be in the same lineup together is if Freel/Hamilton/Edwin are all injured/sent down at the same time. It's ridiculous to have Castro starting at all. Unfortunately, we coudln't play Josh this series.

I would make it even simpler than that. How about this:

Hamilton cf
Phillips 2b
Griffey rf
Dunn lf
Encarnacion 3b
Hatteberg/Conine 1b
Gonzalez ss
Ross c
<pircher>

Freel returns to supersub duty. When he starts, he hits leadoff, and Hamilton moves to whatever spot in the order (#2-5) has been vacated.

[edabbs44]

After going back and looking through the game logs I have decided to exclude three of Harang's bad starts this year due to cold weathers or small ballparks. I believe that drops his ERA down below 3.00 for the season, putting him in the thick of the Cy Young race.

:laugh:

[Matt700wlw]

I would hope that Harang and Arroyo EACH would bring back at least 2 quality arms. I'd rather have three or four Homer Baileys lying around than just one. So when two fizzle out (like they always do, minor leaguers), you still have two left--cheap, and with higher ceilings than either Arroyo or Harang.

But I don't trust Krivsky making those trades.

I'd trade Dunn for quality arms before I trade my quality arms for quality arms....

[Falls City Beer]

I'd trade Dunn for quality arms before I trade my quality arms for quality arms....

In a perfect world, sure....

[Eric_Davis]

As I've said multiple times, this team is in such sad shape that they've reached the point of desperation. They must start bringing back not just quality arm (singular) but quality arms (plural). The only thing that will do that is Arroyo, Dunn, and Harang.

I wouldn't let you GM a Nintendo Team.

[CTA513]

In a perfect world, sure....

In a perfect world the Reds wouldn't suck.

[Matt700wlw]

In a perfect world, sure....

My goal is to create that perfect world :D

I'm sure I will fail.

[guttle11]

His velocity's down by 2 or 3 miles; he looks incredibly uncomfortable on the mound too. Working slowly and uneasily.

I haven't been paying attention to his velocity, but don't you think you'd be a little uneasy if you had the likes of Coffey, Stanton, and Santos behind you?

Come on, man. I realize you like to argue, but the quality of a pitcher's start has more to do than just his stuff. Teams have shrunken their hitting zone against him, and he's having to throw too many pitches. A good bullpen would help that tremendously.

[Matt700wlw]

I wouldn't let you GM a Nintendo Team.

How about Sega? Atari?

[Eric_Davis]

As I've said multiple times, this team is in such sad shape that they've reached the point of desperation. They must start bringing back not just quality arm (singular) but quality arms (plural). The only thing that will do that is Arroyo, Dunn, and Harang.

You're just feeling frustrated because the team keeps finding ways to lose. It's a rough sea right now, but it will calm down, then you can enjoy the summer cruise.

[Falls City Beer]

You're just feeling frustrated because the team keeps finding ways to lose. It's a rough sea right now, but it will calm down, then you can enjoy the summer cruise.

It'll calm when better players are on the roster, but not before.

[Mitri]

I haven't been paying attention to his velocity, but don't you think you'd be a little uneasy if you had the likes of Coffey, Stanton, and Santos behind you?

Come on, man. I realize you like to argue, but the quality of a pitcher's start has more to do with his stuff. Teams have shrunken their hitting zone against him, and he's having to throw too many pitches. A good bullpen would help that tremendously.

Don't kid yourself. Harang's gotten smacked around in over half his starts because of the bullpen? And today, it's because of his ailing grandfather?
Harang just hasn't had his best stuff all season long. It's getting in his head.
I really do think there's something wrong.

[CTA513]

Harang must of paid off the guy who runs the radar gun last week since he was hitting up to 94 mph.

[Big Klu]

I wouldn't let you GM a Nintendo Team.

Baseball Stars!

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/f0/Snap1.gif

[Matt700wlw]

FCB's day is made...Harang is gone.

[OnBaseMachine]

Joey Votto is 3-for-3 today with a double, homerun, and single. Call him up please.

[Matt700wlw]

McBeth is back in Louisville

[Eric_Davis]

This will be the 6th time Harang has surrendered 5 Earned Runs, or more, in a mere 10 Starts (but his xERA shows that he's better than his raw numbers). And what's somewhat more worrisome is the most recent pattern of allowing 5+ER in 4 of his last 5, compounded by the fact that he's usually being hit hard and often in the process of allowing these runs. A few empirical barometers and 'peripherals' are becoming a little troubling, but I think Harang can trend back in the right direction with a few tweaks to his approach.

It doesn't help to have one of the least competent defenses in baseball behind you, nor a manager with seemingly no feel for a pitcher's tipping point in any given start. A lot of negative factors surround Harang that are beyond his control, but he's better than the mediocrity we've seen of late.
.

Ahhh...calmness coming from a storm. Very relaxing post. Thank you.

[OnBaseMachine]

FCB's day is made...Harang is gone.

I can understand why FCB is frustrated, afterall, his Cardinals are worse than the Reds this year.;)

[Matt700wlw]

I can understand why FCB is frustrated, afterall, his Cardinals are worse than the Reds this year.;)

Actually, right now, only the Nationals are worse than the Reds this year...

[guttle11]

Joey Votto is 3-for-3 today with a double, homerun, and single. Call him up please.

Not until he gets that triple! He needs to work on his scrappiness.

[edabbs44]

If anyone wants to see something really scary, look at Dunn's numbers on the road trip. Very Castro like.

[Falls City Beer]

Also, Harang is averaging only 6 innings per start. Way down from previous years.

Maybe Aaron is negatively affecting the bullpen?

[Eric_Davis]

I would hope that Harang and Arroyo EACH would bring back at least 2 quality arms. I'd rather have three or four Homer Baileys lying around than just one. So when two fizzle out (like they always do, minor leaguers), you still have two left--cheap, and with higher ceilings than either Arroyo or Harang.

But I don't trust Krivsky making those trades.

If you were very shrewd, you might get one Homer Bailey for Harang and Arroyo put together.

[OnBaseMachine]

Very impressive inning by Brad Salmon.

[Matt700wlw]

Also, Harang is averaging only 6 innings per start. Way down from previous years.

Maybe Aaron is negatively affecting the bullpen?

So now it's Harang's fault that the bullpen has been awful.

Cool.

[Mitri]

Bring Edwin back and call up Votto. The fans need something, anything to stay interested.

[Eric_Davis]

Wow!

A 9-pitch, 3 up 3 down inning from a reliever.

Nice job, Salmon.

[Matt700wlw]

Very impressive inning by Brad Salmon.

Quick!

[edabbs44]

If you were very shrewd, you might get one Homer Bailey for Harang and Arroyo put together.

And with the money saved?

[Falls City Beer]

So now it's Harang's fault that the bullpen has been awful.

Cool.

I was answering the goofy notion that Harang has sucked this year because of the bullpen.

Sure, my counterpoint is somewhat ridiculous, but only so far as to point out the ridiculousness of the first idea (bullpen's causing Aaron to suck).

[CTA513]

If Harang pitched a complete game every time he pitched the bullpen would be perfect.