Narron is going to destroy Homer Bailey

[kyred14]

If Wayne doesn't fire Narron after that pathetic display of managing in the 7th, Cast should fire them both. Bailey had no business being out there. None zero, zilch. Don't give me that he was cruising crap.

He's 21 years old, not to mention the most promising pitcher to come up through the Reds' system in my lifetime. I have had with Narron. That fool is going to destory him. I am to disgusted too go any further.

[reds1869]

That was terrible. On the flip side, Bailey has officially been initiated by the Cincinnati bullpen. :welcome:

[Degenerate39]

This really really made me mad. Narron doesn't know what he's doing.

[T7-niner]

What was his pitch count when he went out in the 7th? I see he threw a total of 101 pitches.

[bucksfan2]

This is an absolutly horriable display of baseball. I CANNOT understand how Castillini can sit back and watch the Angles outclass, outplay, outhustle, out"play the game the right way". The way the Angles play is directly a result of their manager. Its time to blow it up and start over. If they continue to play this way I hope they lose every game the rest of the season

[mole44]

IMO, this game shows that, even more than Narron, Krivsky needs fired NOW...

[big boy]

He was sitting on 90 and I was thinking he would be taken out, too. He had a two run lead so it made no sense to try to get another 10 or 15 pitches out of him. My guess is that Narron figured that the 8 and 9 hitters were up and he could mow them down. All that said, Bailey still is the one who put them on.

[Doro]

if he cant handle 90 pitches into the 7th inning then whats the point and the hype about him for?

[big boy]

if he cant handle 90 pitches into the 7th inning then whats the point and the hype about him for?

Are you aware of pitch counts? Ever heard of Kerry Wood? Mark Prior? Those guys would throw 140 pitches in a game but where are they now?

[Screwball]

Are you aware of pitch counts? Ever heard of Kerry Wood? Mark Prior? Those guys would throw 140 pitches in a game but where are they now?

Are you aware of counting? Ever heard of greater than or less than signs? Last I checked 90 (or 101) < 140 by a wide margin.

[reds44]

Eh, he was at 90 pitches and been mowing the Angels down the last 3 innings. I could see leaving him in there. I would have personally taken him out, but I can see leaving him in.

Narron's mistake was putting Majewski in. I can't believe he did that. I would love to hear that logic.

[jimbo]

This is a prime example as to why I've been saying all along that Bailey isn't ready for the majors. Narron's top priority is to win ballgames, not protect the arm of a 21-year old pitcher. At this level, winning will always supersede keeping a piticher on a strict pitch count.

Homer should still be at Louisville where his workload can be more easily controlled and development a top priority. If his arm isn't ready to handle pitching more than 90 pitches a game every 5 starts, then he shouldn't be here.

[reds44]

This is a prime example as to why I've been saying all along that Bailey isn't ready for the majors. Narron's top priority is to win ballgames, not protect the arm of a 21-year old pitcher. At this level, winning will always supersede keeping a piticher on a strict pitch count.

Homer should still be at Louisville where his workload can be more easily controlled and development a top priority. If his arm isn't ready to handle pitching more than 90 pitches a game every 5 starts, then he shouldn't be here.
If Homer goes out and gives the Reds 6 innings of 3 run ball every game this year (like he did before starting the 7th), nobody would complain about it. Narron is managing like a guy trying to save his job right now, and that is very dangerous.

[Cant Touch This]

I don't fault Narron for leaving Bailey in for the 7th. One more 9-10 pitch inning wouldn't have been cause for any concern re: his maturing arm and durability. What I DO question is bringing in the Magic Man and is 11+ ERA into a game at the most critical time when the Reds are on the verge of taking two series from two first-place AL teams and building some momentum.

That one inning took a heck of a lot of wind out of the Big Red Sail. Magic Man is either not ready or he's just not good enough. Homer will be fine.

[jimbo]

Narron is managing like a guy trying to save his job right now, and that is very dangerous.

Narron is managing to win games, just as any other manager does. If Bailey needs protected, he should be in Louisville.

[FlightRick]

Put me firmly in the "Homer was breezing for the past 3 innings, hadn't yet over-extended himself, and was fixing to face the bottom of the order, so it's perfectly sensible to leave him in" camp. It becomes doubly sensible if you're forced to consider the available alternatives, but even in a vacuum, I'd have signed off on that decision.

Which isn't to say that I don't also see where some of the pitchcount-huggers and coddlers are coming from.... but what really slayed me as I was scanning the Game Thread was that the most outspoken critics of Narron's move ot leave Baily in weren't even really trying to convince us that the difference between 90 pitches and 101 pitches was going to be the deathblow to Homer's shoulder.

They were trying to convince us it was going to be the deathblow to Homer's psyche. Ugh.

Look... I've said it before, and I'll say it again:we're running a professional baseball organization here, not a daycare for special needs kids. So "You should take Homer out after 6 innings, when he's in line for the win, and can fell good about himself" doesn't fly with me. If Homer Bailey is upset with himself for giving up two more walks: that's well and good, and I hope he wrestles with that and comes out stronger for it. But if Homer Bailey is psychologically crushed by being asked to pitch into the 7th inning, then we have bigger problems than managerial decision-making here.

Bottom line: if Homer is what we think he is, he will learn and be gratified by doing, not by being carefully handled and over-managed to create psychologically-pleasing Illusions of Success. Think of it as the "Rocky III" Principle.

[muethibp]

90 pitches was plenty on a day with weather like today. He never should have been allowed out there for the 7th.

Are we at all worried about his inability to strike anybody out?

[reds44]

.

Are we at all worried about his inability to strike anybody out?
Not at all. That will come as command of his curve comes.

[Jefferson24]

Narron had no business running Homer out there in the seventh.

Maybe with some proper management this team might be worth keeping together, especially with the division as week as it is. Narron is the biggest reason this team is where it is right now.

[Screwball]

Narron had no business running Homer out there in the seventh.


See, I just don't get this. You may disagree with the decision to bring Homer back in, but after only 90 pitches and having cruised through the last 3 innings, Narron certainly had plenty of business sending Homer back out there, especailly to face the bottom of the Angels' order. Now, if you had said, "Narron had no business running Majewski out there in relief", I'd completely agree as Majewski is only driving up the blood pressure of Reds fans everywhere.

[durl]

So we'll put this thread into the following category:

"Narron was dumb to leave starter in."

Of course, if he yanked him at 80 pitches and the bullpen blew it, it would fall in the:

"Narron was dumb to pull the starter" category.

Of course, if the bullpen came through and the Reds won today, no one would be complaining at all (or giving Narron credit).

I'm with FlightRick. If Homer is going to be an everyday pitcher, he needs to be an everyday pitcher. Period. I'm not ready to turn this season into an advanced AAA program where future impact players get a little playing time before we get "serious" about winning next year.

[muethibp]

I'm not ready to turn this season into an advanced AAA program where future impact players get a little playing time before we get "serious" about winning next year.

What more could the Reds do to convince you that it's time, indeed overdue, to turn the season into when future impact players get playing time? Fewest wins in the NL? Check. Most games back in the NL (in the worst division)? Check.

[jimbo]

I don't remember anyone having a problem with Narron sending Bailey out to pitch the 5th inning of his first start after already having thrown 100+ pitchings. The difference between that start and today? Last time it worked out ok, this time it didn't.

[nate]

I think the poor decision was twofold:

- not making a move after the first walk
- bringing in Mulletski

Why not have McBeth getting ready at the start of the inning?

[big boy]

Are you aware of counting? Ever heard of greater than or less than signs? Last I checked 90 (or 101) < 140 by a wide margin.

Are you saying that anything under 140 would have been ok? Harang and Arroyo rarely get over 120. Keep in mind that he threw a career high in his last game.

[Hubba]

I don't remember anyone having a problem with Narron sending Bailey out to pitch the 5th inning of his first start after already having thrown 100+ pitchings. The difference between that start and today? Last time it worked out ok, this time it didn't.
Please don't mess up a good rant with facts.:beerme:

[big boy]

Please don't mess up a good rant with facts.:beerme:

Facts? Many people were concerned. He was on the brink of his first win so they let him finish the 5th. Delucci was going to be his last batter and he got him.

[cincrazy]

I was at the game today, Homer was absolutely cruising. And the bottom of the order was up, so I wanted him to go back out there, and agreed with the decision. Narron's mistake was having faith in Majewski. Bailey walked the two hitters, it's not like they crushed the ball and pummeled him. If he forces them to put the ball in play, he pitches 7 great innings, and the bullpen might hold it down.

Narron's mistake was bringing the Magic man in... but his handling of Homer was fine, IMO.

[Screwball]

Are you saying that anything under 140 would have been ok?


Uhh what? Of course I'm not saying that. But go back and re-read your post. You said "Ever heard of Kerry Wood? Mark Prior?" and then went on about how Dusty Baker left them in for "140 pitches", comparing that to how Narron is handling Bailey.

The move today was fine. As has been mentioned about 5 times in this thread, Bailey had been cruising, was facing the bottom of the order, and only had 90 pitches. At the first sign of trouble and with him being over 100 pitches (101), Narron took him out. I really don't see what the problem is. But then again, I guess some people just need to have something to blame when the Reds lose, and more often than not, Narron's that guy.

[REDblooded]

Bailey should've been in to start the 7th. He was pitching well, and 90 pitches isn't anything to be alarmed about............he had a start or two over 100 this year in Louisville.

And I can't really even fault Narron for bringing in Majewski. The rest of the bullpen has been taxed pretty heavily lately. I consider this more a move of lack of options than personal choice.

[Chi-Town Red]

the bottom line, as everyone knows is our bullpen
is the laughing stock of MLB!! I dont have faith in
anyone who is out there. Homer should have come
out for the 7th no question. Unless you want Weathers
trying to get the last 9 outs

[Jefferson24]

Bailey should've been in to start the 7th. He was pitching well, and 90 pitches isn't anything to be alarmed about............he had a start or two over 100 this year in Louisville.

And I can't really even fault Narron for bringing in Majewski. The rest of the bullpen has been taxed pretty heavily lately. I consider this more a move of lack of options than personal choice.

A start or 2 over 100 in Louisville is not near enough of a trial to suggest he should being doing it on a regular basis at the major league level. I love him being up here and I think he should be but Narron has to realize he is only 21 and he needs limited as far as pitch count and innings per season go.

Here are the facts:

1. It was a hot day

2. Homer has had some control issues (although today was an improvement until the 7th.)

3. The more tired you get the worse your control is

4. Homer was at 90 pitches. Very unlikely he could get through the 7th inning and still be in the 100-105 window.

Homer should have been pulled at the end of 6. If not then certainly after the first walk in the seventh.

Majewski should never have been brought in. Heck for that matter Majewski shouldn't even be on this team. He needs to be DFA.

This is not rocket science Jerry!

[Doro]

Are you aware of pitch counts? Ever heard of Kerry Wood? Mark Prior? Those guys would throw 140 pitches in a game but where are they now?


I'm very aware of pitch counts.... are you? 90 pitches at the high school level for a starter isnt much.... hes in the major leagues. Talk to Roger Clemens about pitch counts and he'll laugh at you.


Prior and Wood arnt hurt because of pitch counts.... Prior has bad arm mechanics and Wood fell in love with over snapping his breaking pitches.


!!!!! 90 pitches and people are freaking out!!! lol !!!!!!

[big boy]

Talk to Roger Clemens about pitch counts and he'll laugh at you.

When Clemens was Bailey's age (21), he was still in the low minors. He threw 91 innings that year. Before that he was in college. Bailey threw more innings than that at age 19. Bailey threw 138 innings last year at age 20.

Hindsight is what it is but he threw 8 balls out of his last 11 pitches and was clearly done. What is the argument for keeping him?

[durl]

What more could the Reds do to convince you that it's time, indeed overdue, to turn the season into when future impact players get playing time? Fewest wins in the NL? Check. Most games back in the NL (in the worst division)? Check.

1. It's mid-June. It's getting late, but it's not August.

2. Starting a fire sale with more than half the season to play could very well mean fewer fans in the stands for over 3 months.

3. Being the last place team in the Central is FAR, FAR better than being the last place team in the other divisions. The Brewers had a 9-17 streak (losing 6 in a row). The Astros had a 10-game losing streak.

4. This past week the Reds made up 2 games in the standings within 5 days. (Sure, they blew it again but it shows that they can move up quickly.)

5. I simply believe that if the Reds can get Guardado and Bray back healthy and pitching well, they will win a lot more games. Guardado proved he could get the saves, Bray and Weathers can be excellent set-up men.

I'm as frustrated as the next guy. I guess I just see more potential than a lot of people around here.

[bounty37h]

Are you aware of pitch counts? Ever heard of Kerry Wood? Mark Prior? Those guys would throw 140 pitches in a game but where are they now?

I kind of get what your getting at, but geez, c'mon, there is a huge difference between 101 pitches, and 140 pitches, not to mention players have been going that long or longer for years and years and years, it is more recent pitchers have been babied so much with low pitch. I suspect if he had gotten throught he 7'th-not a stretch for major league pitchers-we would not ahve thought 2 times about a pitch count or should have been pulled, etc. Losing sure does a lot for second guessing or monday morning couch coaches.

[big boy]

I kind of get what your getting at, but geez, c'mon, there is a huge difference between 101 pitches, and 140 pitches, not to mention players have been going that long or longer for years and years and years, it is more recent pitchers have been babied so much with low pitch.

Forget pitch counts. Of his final 11 pitches, 8 were balls. Doesn't that show you that he should have been pulled?

[REDblooded]

Forget pitch counts. Of his final 11 pitches, 8 were balls. Doesn't that show you that he should have been pulled?


Yeah...and that's when he WAS pulled

[bounty37h]

Forget pitch counts. Of his final 11 pitches, 8 were balls. Doesn't that show you that he should have been pulled?

Yes, and at that point, he needed to be pulled, that isnt at all what I am saying here, I was responding to those that said he shouldnt have even gone out for the 7'th inning. I dont think you understood my post.

[REDblooded]

Yes, and at that point, he needed to be pulled, that isnt at all what I am saying here, I was responding to those that said he shouldnt have even gone out for the 7'th inning. I dont think you understood my post.

Ahh. my bad. So much negativity I had trouble figuring who was on which side of the fence.

[big boy]

Yeah...and that's when he WAS pulled

Don't you expect a manager to pull the pitcher before the wheels fall off? Isn't that part of the job? Should Narron always wait until it is obvious before making a move?

[bounty37h]

Ahh. my bad. So much negativity I had trouble figuring who was on which side of the fence.

Dude, I hear ya, it is very frustrating. I havent even come to the board as often lately, as I know it is nothing but a cesspool of anger and bickering. A good win streak is needed to bring a moment of calm here.

[REDblooded]

Don't you expect a manager to pull the pitcher before the wheels fall off? Isn't that part of the job? Should Narron always wait until it is obvious before making a move?


It's a bit of a thin line don't you think? Did you see anything in the previous inning that suggested that he was gonna come out and walk the first two batters? I wasn't at the game, but by all accounts, the answer is no. So he came out and faced two batters. Big deal. Given the rested options in the bullpen, you can't really blame Narron for trying to use a pitcher who was in a groove against the 8 and 9 hitters in the line-up.

Now if you personally have the ability to foresee when exactly a player is going to perform to his highest level, and when he is going to struggle, than you, my friend, have missed your calling.

[durl]

Now if you personally have the ability to foresee when exactly a player is going to perform to his highest level, and when he is going to struggle, than you, my friend, have missed your calling.

Amen, brother! :thumbup:

[big boy]

Now if you personally have the ability to foresee when exactly a player is going to perform to his highest level, and when he is going to struggle, than you, my friend, have missed your calling.

Yeah...I guess your right...I have missed my calling. I'm gonna call Wayne now about some trade ideas.

[JLB5]

I also was at the game and thought leaving him in was the right move. His pitch limit is 110 and he had an extra day of rest with the off day on Tuesday. He was very efficient the last 3 innings, had only walked 1 batter to that point, and the bottom of the order was up. Had his spot come up in the bottom of the 6th, I thought Narron should PH for him but that didn't happen. I just don't understand all the fretting and hand wringing over this one. Narron has had plenty of firable offenses, but his handling of Bailey so far has been fine.

FWIW, Narron had Majewski warming prior to the start of the 7th, so he clearly had Homer on a short leash there. The major problem was that Santos and Stanton were his only other options in that spot. McBeth had throw 1.2 innings the previous night and Coutlangus had pitched in like 5 of the last 6. I don't blame him for not trusting Coffey. Santos is usually good for giving up an inherited runner or two. Not a lot of options there. A quick inning by Homer would have been huge.

Now, if they are pitching Homer deep into games in September when they are 20 games back (or whatever it will be by then), I'll start having some issues.

[durl]

LJB5, very good job presenting the WHOLE story about why certain decisions are made.

In real life, many factors have to be considered, unlike the "video game" managing technique used by many.