6/26/07 Reds @ Phillies

[BRM]

Lineups per C. Trent

Redlegs:
Hatteberg 1b
Phillips 2b
Griffey rf
Dunn lf
Encarnacion 3b
Hamilton cf
Gonzalez ss
Ross c
Bailey p

Phillies:
Rollins ss
Bourn lf
Utley 2b
Howard 1b
Rowand cf
VIctorino rf
Dobbs 3b
Ruiz c
Kendrick p

[Matt700wlw]

Here's an oddity..

When Griffey bats 3rd... the Reds are 14-32

When Griffey DOESN'T bat 3rd....the Reds are 9-9

When Griffey doesn't play....the Reds are 6-6





Now, that makes no sense.

[Red Leader]

Here's an oddity..

When Griffey bats 3rd... the Reds are 14-32

When Griffey DOESN'T bat 3rd....the Reds are 9-9

When Griffey doesn't play....the Reds are 6-6





Now, that makes no sense.


http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/thumb/8/83/200px-0330chewbacca.jpg

[flyer85]

JN really ought to flop EE and BP in the batting order.

[BRM]

JN really ought to flop EE and BP in the batting order.

But BP makes more outs...

[KronoRed]

But BP makes more outs...

Perfect for the 5/6th spot, he could steal in front of the bottom half and score on their ground outs

[BRM]

Perfect for the 5/6th spot, he could steal in front of the bottom half and score on their ground outs

I agree. Jerry, however, seems to prefer low OBP guys at the top of the order.

[Puffy]

JN really ought to flop EE and BP in the batting order.

Heck, if it were me:

Hamilton
Dunn
Griffey
EdE
Phillips
Hatteberg
Ross
Gonzalez

[Heath]

Heck, if it were me:

Hamilton
Dunn
Griffey
EdE
Phillips
Hatteberg
Ross
Gonzalez

Yep - except I'd flip EdE for Dunn.

[Heath]

I agree. Jerry, however, seems to prefer low OBP guys.

I fixed it for you, especially in light of Castro PH for Roy Hobbs.

[penantboundreds]

What are the guesses for Bailey's line tonight?

[Matt700wlw]

The Phillies pitcher jumped from AA to the bigs.

[Reds Fanatic]

Good AB from Hatteberg as he draws a walk.

[Reds Fanatic]

Phillips singles to right. 1st and 2nd.

[Big Klu]

Good lineup tonight.

[Reds Fanatic]

Junior singles to right. Bases loaded with no outs.

[Matt700wlw]

This Junior is guy is a washed-up hack.

:p:

[Reds Fanatic]

Dunn breaks his bat and hits a sac. fly to right. 1st and 3rd. 1-0 Reds.

[Matt700wlw]

Sac fly for Dunn.

I may faint.

[Reds Fanatic]

Encarnacion pops out to 3rd. 2 outs.

[Reds Fanatic]

Hamilton walks. Bases loaded. 32 pitches already for Kendrick.

[Reds Fanatic]

The pitcher has been wild all inning so Gonzalez swings at the first pitch and flies out to right. 1-0 Reds.

[Reds Fanatic]

Rollins singles to right.

[Reds Fanatic]

4 pitch walk to Bourn. 1st and 2nd.

[Matt700wlw]

Homer not wasting any time getting himself into trouble...

[Reds Fanatic]

Utley grounds into a 4-6-3 DP. Runner on 3rd with 2 outs.

[Matt700wlw]

Nice...double play!

[Reds Fanatic]

Howard homers to the first row in right. 2-1 Phillies.

[Matt700wlw]

Well.....it was going to happen eventually.

[Chip R]

Homer gives up a homer.

[CTA513]

You might not want to throw it right down the middle.

[Tommyjohn25]

No shame in giving up your first long ball to that guy named Ryan Howard.

[Matt700wlw]

Hopefully he learned his lesson and will pitch to him differently next time.

[Matt700wlw]

Nice pitch

[Reds Fanatic]

Rowand strikes out swinging. 2-1 Phillies after 1.

21 pitches with 10 strikes for Bailey in the first.

[PuffyPig]

Hopefully he learned his lesson and will pitch to him differently next time.

I'm hopin' his game plan wasn't to throw a pitch down the center of the plate.

[Reds Fanatic]

Ross pops out to short. 1 out.

[Reds Fanatic]

Bailey strikes out swinging. 2 outs.

[Reds Fanatic]

Hatteberg grounds out to 2nd. 2-1 Phillies mid 2nd.

[Reds Fanatic]

Victorino singles to center.

[Matt700wlw]

The Phillies hit where people ain't

[Reds Fanatic]

Dobbs singles to left on the hit and run. 1st and 3rd.

[CTA513]

Baileys going to get smacked around tonight.

[Matt700wlw]

Baileys going to get smacked around tonight.

If that happens.....it happens.

In 5 days, try again.

[CTA513]

If that happens.....it happens.

In 5 days, try again.

In 5 days he will try again.

[Reds Fanatic]

Ruiz singles to center. 3-1 Phillies. 1st and 2nd.

[redsfan30]

And here comes all the "I told you he's not ready's".....

[Matt700wlw]

Phillies do the little things....

what a concept.

[Matt700wlw]

Walks the pitcher on 4 straight...

Yeesh...he doesn't seem to have it, tonight.

[Aronchis]

And here comes all the "I told you he's not ready's".....

yawn, we already knew that. No big surprise from my POV. He will have some ugly starts, he would of if they waited to next spring, just more now.

[Reds Fanatic]

This is looking like a short night for Bailey. 4 pitch walk to Kendrick loads the bases.

[Matt700wlw]

Brantley wondering if attitudes like Lohse's are rubbing off on Bailey.

[flyer85]

not ready for primetime yet

[Reds Fanatic]

Rollins grounds into a 4-6-3 DP. 4-1 Phillies. Runner on 3rd.

[Matt700wlw]

yawn, we already knew that.

If you were in charge, he'd never be ready.

:p:

[Matt700wlw]

not ready for primetime yet

He did good in the daytime during his last start.

Maybe he's just ready for daytime. :)

[Reds Fanatic]

Gosling is warming up.

[flyer85]

Brantley wondering if attitudes like Lohse's are rubbing off on Bailey.Bailey struggles with command, it's as simple as that.

[RFS62]

not ready for primetime yet


Sure doesn't look like it tonight.

Really telegraphing that curveball

[Reds Fanatic]

Bourn walks. 1st and 3rd.

[Aronchis]

If you were in charge, he'd never be ready.

:p:

Hardly, if they would have let Bailey nuture down in AAA for the 2007 season, he would have been given, if not pampered into a starting job spring 2008. The Reds clearly rushed him a bit, but not overly new. Everybody from Peavy to Bonderman have been rushed at some point. The key is getting better now. Bad starts are good learning tools for raw, green pitchers.

[Matt700wlw]

:lol:

[jojo]

Man this is ugly and the radio guys are trying their best to talk about anything and everything else besides the game.... there were a few at bats so far that didn't even get a comment.... WOW

[MrCinatit]

Wow. Phillies with a heads up play, knowing the Reds have their own heads up their...

[Reds Fanatic]

Wow. Double steal. Runner steals 2nd and as Ross throws to 2nd the runner steals home. 5-1 Phillies.

[Reds Fanatic]

Utley singles to right. 6-1 Phillies.

[flyer85]

terrible play by Gonzo

[Reds Fanatic]

That is is for Bailey tonight. Gosling coming in.

[Matt700wlw]

Have a seat, kid....get 'em next time.

[CTA513]

1.2 Innings, 6 Hits, 6 Runs, 3 BB, 1 K

[Matt700wlw]

Now next time we see how he does after getting beat around.

A sign of his maturity

[Aronchis]

Wow, Phillips and Gonzo with clear lost in the moment plays. First time I think I have seen the Reds outright give up since 2001 at least. Nobody is playing with much energy much like 2001.

[jojo]

Anybody have a rough percentage of the secondary stuff Homer threw? It sounded like all fastballs based on the radio but they pretty much were ignoring the game....

[Matt700wlw]

Hardly, if they would have let Bailey nuture down in AAA for the 2007 season, he would have been given, if not pampered into a starting job spring 2008. The Reds clearly rushed him a bit, but not overly new. Everybody from Peavy to Bonderman have been rushed at some point. The key is getting better now. Bad starts are good learning tools for raw, green pitchers.

We disagree on the rushing part....but agree on the rest.

Now that he's here, he's going to have to learn everything that comes with it.

[jojo]

Wow, Phillips and Gonzo with clear lost in the moment plays. First time I think I have seen the Reds outright give up since 2001 at least. Nobody is playing with much energy much like 2001.

I wonder if the reds will keep fighting tonight or if they'll roll over. I can watch them as long as theyre fighting....

[Reds Fanatic]

Howard strikes out looking. 6-1 Phillies after 2.

[guttle11]

To be honest, this could be the best thing that will happen to Homer this year.

[Reds Fanatic]

Anybody have a rough percentage of the secondary stuff Homer threw? It sounded like all fastballs based on the radio but they pretty much were ignoring the game....
It was much more fastballs tonight. He just did not have the good breaking ball tonight he had in his last start.

[flyer85]

To be honest, this could be the best thing that will happen to Homer this year.on most nights he has struggled with command of his fastball and his walk numbers show it. The question is do you want to work on it in the majors or in AAA.

[Reds Fanatic]

Phillips grounds out to short.

Junior doubles to right.

[Matt700wlw]

I wonder if the reds will keep fighting tonight or if they'll roll over. I can watch them as long as theyre fighting....

I could argue they rolled over a long time ago.

[MrCinatit]

To be honest, this could be the best thing that will happen to Homer this year.

I agree - he was going to get rocked eventually, and I would have rather had it happen sooner than later. I hope he learns from this.

[Reds Fanatic]

Dunn flies out to left on the first pitch. 2 outs.

[Matt700wlw]

on most nights he has struggled with command of his fastball and his walk numbers show it. The question is do you want to work on it in the majors or in AAA.

For now, work on it here...he's here.

If he gets beat around a few more times in a row, and doesn't show any signs of improvement, maybe I'll change my mind.

[Joseph]

I've noted the Phils doing a little hit and run type stuff tonight. I feel like we don't do that sort of thing much, is that an accurate feeling, or just a skewed perception of a man frustrated with losing?

[Reds Fanatic]

Encarnacion pops out to short. 6-1 Phillies mid 3rd.

[Matt700wlw]

I've noted the Phils doing a little hit and run type stuff tonight. I feel like we don't do that sort of thing much, is that an accurate feeling, or just a skewed perception of a man frustrated with losing?

The Reds don't do those things....they just talk about doing them.

[Reds Fanatic]

I've noted the Phils doing a little hit and run type stuff tonight. I feel like we don't do that sort of thing much, is that an accurate feeling, or just a skewed perception of a man frustrated with losing?You are right the Reds don't do it enough. The Phillies have been more aggresive in 3 innings than the Reds have been in a month.

[Reds Fanatic]

Rowand flies out to left. 1 out.

[jojo]

It was much more fastballs tonight. He just did not have the good breaking ball tonight he had in his last start.

He didn't have a good one last time either IMHO but we already knew he was going to struggle with his curve and change. I was just wondering if he was having trouble because he was trying to throw them more (I guess hoping rather than wondering).

[Falls City Beer]

on most nights he has struggled with command of his fastball and his walk numbers show it. The question is do you want to work on it in the majors or in AAA.

Without a question, AAA. He's so obviously not ready it's not funny. In fact, they may have set him back a bit with this little stunt of calling him up early.

[Matt700wlw]

This is getting old.

[Cyclone792]

Bailey with a 5.13 DIPS ERA now on the season. His K/9 is 3.66, his BB/9 is 6.41, and his K/BB is 0.57.

He needs to sharpen his command, and he needs to sharpen his command quickly.

[Reds Fanatic]

The rout continues. Victorino homers to left.

[Matt700wlw]

Without a question, AAA. He's so obviously not ready it's not funny. In fact, they may have set him back a bit with this little stunt of calling him up early.

If he doesn't have it upstairs to handle a night like tonight, then he wasn't going to make it anyway. I'm not really worried about his mental makeup.


I'll bet he's moved on already, and has forgotten about it..maybe not forgotten, but not dwelling on it or crawling into a fetal position and sucking his thumb....too bad some fans won't as long as he lives....and will preach the not ready thing every bad outing or every bad pitch.

[flyer85]

seems as though Santos is the latest in the forgotten man role.

[jojo]

Bailey with a 5.13 DIPS ERA now on the season. His K/9 is 3.66, his BB/9 is 6.41, and his K/BB is 0.57.

He needs to sharpen his command, and he needs to sharpen his command quickly.

Yes. Stuff gets you signed. Command gets you a ticket to the dance.

[Falls City Beer]

Bailey with a 5.13 DIPS ERA now on the season. His K/9 is 3.66, his BB/9 is 6.41, and his K/BB is 0.57.

He needs to sharpen his command, and he needs to sharpen his command quickly.

When he came up and didn't K a soul, I immediately got worried. I can live with some command issues, but when you aren't missing bats with great stuff, you simply have no business in the majors.

Egg on the front office's face. Again.

[Reds Fanatic]

He didn't have a good one last time either IMHO but we already knew he was going to struggle with his curve and change. I was just wondering if he was having trouble because he was trying to throw them more (I guess hoping rather than wondering).
It was mainly fastballs but he struggled a lot with control tonight. Of the 12 batters he was behind in the count to 6 of the 12.

[Aronchis]

I wonder if Bailey will be demoted after this game?

[Kc61]

One guy getting a free ride is EE. His OPS is approaching .700, and approaching it from north to south. Plate discipline has disappeared. Isn't hitting lefties.

Sophomore jinx or has the league just figured him out? But he isn't helping things out there.

As for Bailey, this is just growing pains. I don't think he was seriously rushed. Narron was correct to remove him before it got ridiculous.

Speaking of ridiculous, have you ever seen anything like this Reds team?

[Reds Fanatic]

Now Gosling getting hit hard. Ruiz doubles. 2nd and 3rd.

[Cyclone792]

If he doesn't have it upstairs to handle a night like tonight, then he wasn't going to make it anyway. He can handle it.


I'll be he's moved on already, and has forgotten about it..maybe not forgotten, but not dwelling on it or crawling into a fetal position and sucking his thumb....too bad some fans won't as long as he lives.

Regardless where his head is, if he continues to struggle to throw strikes then it's not going to be very pretty at all. Bailey needs a considerable amount of development with his command still, because right now it's just not even close to being major league ready.

[jojo]

If he doesn't have it upstairs to handle a night like tonight, then he wasn't going to make it anyway. He can handle it.


I'll be he's moved on already, and has forgotten about it..maybe not forgotten, but not dwelling on it or crawling into a fetal position and sucking his thumb....too bad some fans won't as long as he lives.

It's not about whether he can handle it upstairs. It's about where is the best environment for him to develop.

[flyer85]

Gosling up in the zone. He better bring it down

[Falls City Beer]

If he doesn't have it upstairs to handle a night like tonight, then he wasn't going to make it anyway. He can handle it.


I'll be he's moved on already, and has forgotten about it..maybe not forgotten, but not dwelling on it or crawling into a fetal position and sucking his thumb....too bad some fans won't as long as he lives....and will preach the not ready thing every bad outing or every bad pitch.

This game is a mental exercise. But especially so for a 21 year old.

[WVRedsFan]

It's really sad that we're so short on pitching this has to happen.

Of course, the position players aren't thinking either after that first inning. I screamed at the TV when Gonzalez went up there hacking on the first pitch and popped up. Our hitters help their pitchers.

[Matt700wlw]

This game is a mental exercise. But especially so for a 21 year old.

He can handle that part of it. Tonight could be good for him. It'll test his maturity.


Ryan Wagner, he isn't.

[flyer85]

I can live with some command issues, but when you aren't missing bats with great stuff.The command issues don't disappoint me nearly as much as the fastball that has been at 91-94 and the rolling curve ball.

[KronoRed]

To be honest, this could be the best thing that will happen to Homer this year.

Agreed, I'm glad it came sooner rather then later

[Aronchis]

The command issues don't disappoint me nearly as much as the fastball that has been at 91-94 and the rolling curve ball.

He can't throw any harder because he can't command it at this level. Easy to throw gas in high A/AA and get away with it, not so higher up.

[flyer85]

Phillips forgets how many outs there are

[Falls City Beer]

He can handle that part of it. Tonight could be good for him.


Ryan Wagner, he isn't.

A few more nights like tonight, and he'll be Mark Wohlers. This game is brutal.

The guy isn't able to do the thing that is his raison d'etre in the majors: strike batters out. That should send an air-raid siren to the front office.

[Reds Fanatic]

It's really sad that we're so short on pitching this has to happen.

Of course, the position players aren't thinking either after that first inning. I screamed at the TV when Gonzalez went up there hacking on the first pitch and popped up. Our hitters help their pitchers.
That was the typical stupidity of some of our hitters. The Phillies pitcher had already thrown over 30 pitches had went to full counts on 3 of the first 6 batters and Gonzalez swings at the first pitch.

[Matt700wlw]

That was an odd play, to say the least...

[flyer85]

Agreed, I'm glad it came sooner rather then laterI think Homer is probably realistic about where he is at, it seems as thought the front office isn't

[jojo]

When he came up and didn't K a soul, I immediately got worried. I can live with some command issues, but when you aren't missing bats with great stuff, you simply have no business in the majors.

Egg on the front office's face. Again.

I asked the question of whether he was getting the As out or whether they were just not getting hits during the Oakland outing and basically got dumped on in the game thread. I think it was an important question then and it's still one now. Case in point, the two double plays tonight weren't exactly induced but rather rocketed right at someone.

I think it's a fair question. Where is Homer's true level of performance. I don't think either Oakland or tonight represents where he actually is at right now.

That said, it's definately an open question as to whether he should be with the reds or in Louisville.

[Reds Fanatic]

Phillips forgets how many outs there are
Phillips and Gonzalez are both not there mentally tonight.

[flyer85]

That was an odd play, to say the least...Phillips didn't know there were two outs.

[Matt700wlw]

:hamilton:

:jump:

[guttle11]

Hamilton crushed that one.

[Reds Fanatic]

Hamilton homers. 7-2 Phillies.

[Falls City Beer]

I asked the question of whether he was getting the As out or whether they were just not getting hits during the Oakland outing and basically got dumped on in the game thread. I think it was an important question then and it's still one now. Case in point, the two double plays tonight weren't exactly induced but rather rocketed right at someone.

I think it's a fair question. Where is Homer's true level of performance. I don't think either Oakland or tonight represents where he actually is at right now.

That said, it's definately an open question as to whether he should be with the reds or in Louisville.


This board can be flat-out allergic to "bad" news; don't sweat it. I've gotten dumped on so often, I smell like Staten Island.

But I'm right a disturbing percentage of the time, so they keep me around. ;)

[penantboundreds]

How many solo home runs has this team hit compared to hitting home runs with people on base?

[Matt700wlw]

There's no doubt Josh is ready for primetime

[Matt700wlw]

But I'm right a disturbing percentage of the time, so they keep me around. ;)

I wouldn't go that far ;)

[flyer85]

it's definately an open question as to whether he should be with the reds or in Louisville.in this lost season the answer is rather obvious. He still needs work, might as well let him do it at AAA.

[Matt700wlw]

in this lost season the answer is rather obvious. He still needs work, might as well let him do it at AAA.

If the season's lost, why do it AAA?

Get seasoned, get his feet wet, get some of this stuff out of the way on a lost season.

[flyer85]

There's no doubt Josh is ready for primetimein his case it is moot

[penantboundreds]

flyer he wasnt exactly getting work in AAA, he was mowing through the minor league hitters, he needs work in the Majors so he can know what he has to do before next year.

[Matt700wlw]

in his case it is moot

Well, at least everyone agrees on something around here.. :)

[flyer85]

If the season's lost, why do it AAA?
because the numbers don't lie, he is seriously overmatched at this point.

[Matt700wlw]

flyer he wasnt exactly getting work in AAA, he was mowing through the minor league hitters, he needs work in the Majors so he can know what he has to do before next year.

Stop being logical.

[Falls City Beer]

There's no doubt Josh is ready for primetime

All you had to do was watch three or four games and watch his plate approach. He was as ready as he was going to be. If he fails now, it's not for not being ready.

[Matt700wlw]

because the numbers don't lie, he is seriously overmatched at this point.

He was undermatched in AAA

[Falls City Beer]

flyer he wasnt exactly getting work in AAA, he was mowing through the minor league hitters, he needs work in the Majors so he can know what he has to do before next year.

Results matter far less than skill mastery for Homer.

[Cyclone792]

flyer he wasnt exactly getting work in AAA, he was mowing through the minor league hitters, he needs work in the Majors so he can know what he has to do before next year.


Stop being logical.


He was undermatched in AAA

Walking nearly four batters per nine innings in AAA isn't mowing down hitters, and it isn't being undermatched.

[flyer85]

flyer he wasnt exactly getting work in AAA, he was mowing through the minor league hitters, he needs work in the Majors so he can know what he has to do before next year.the BPIs showed he had issues at AAA even if his ERA didn't. He was walking too many and striking out too few in AAA for his success to translate. His ERA was a fluke bolstered by an extremely low BABIP.

[Big Klu]

AFLAC Trivia Question: Three Phillies have had 200 hits and 30 HRs in the same season. Who are they?

My guesses:
Chuck Klein
Richie Allen
Mike Schmidt

[guttle11]

The difference between Homer tonight and Homer in Oakland is simple, he wasn't hitting his spots. In Oakland he was getting in on the hands and down on the knees. Today he was at the waist, and over the plate.

He will start missing more bats as he gets better, and more comfortable throwing his off-speed stuff.

[Big Klu]

AFLAC Trivia Question: Three Phillies have had 200 hits and 30 HRs in the same season. Who are they?

My guesses:
Chuck Klein
Richie Allen
Mike Schmidt

Correct Answers:

Lefty O'Doul
Chuck Klein
Chase Utley

[Matt700wlw]

The difference between Homer tonight and Homer in Oakland is simple, he wasn't hitting his spots. In Oakland he was getting in on the hands and down on the knees. Today he was at the waist, and over the plate.

He will start missing more bats as he gets better, and more comfortable throwing his off-speed stuff.

Impossible. He can't do that in the big leagues...

[KronoRed]

Walking nearly four batters per nine innings in AAA isn't mowing down hitters, and it isn't being undermatched.

Now YOU stop being logical ;)

[jojo]

in this lost season the answer is rather obvious. He still needs work, might as well let him do it at AAA.

But if he's going to be throwing 80% fastballs none of which break 93 mph, what's the point? This experiment could actually stunt his development by minimizing his secondary stuff (I don't care about his psyche). Each outing where he simply rares back and throws fastballs is another lost opportunity to be developing as a complete pitcher. I could care less about where his peripherals end up this season. I want him to be developing command and learning how to pitch. Forget results-based grading. Make him throw his secondary stuff while he's up even if he gets hammered like a nail at an Amish carpentry convention. If he simply can't throw strikes, then send him down to an environment that will maximize his growth.

MAXIMIZE HIS DEVELOPMENT. That's the goal.

[penantboundreds]

Matt I just sent you a PM.

[guttle11]

Impossible. He can't do that in the big leagues...

The funny thing is, he would have been shelled in AAA tonight, too.

Homer will be fine. He's learning how to be a major league pitcher. Today is just a lesson, as was his start in Oakland.

People are just way too reactionary. He was awful tonight, but very good in Oakland. Guess what, it'll happen.

[Matt700wlw]

We call for the youth movement....bring up one of the youth, and scream he's not ready.

Are we doing the youth movement or not? Are we letting them take their lumps now or are we not? I say bring more youth! No reason to play for the current...play for the future

Which is it....can't call for it and then yell about it when it happens.

[flyer85]

Gosling is throwing harder tonight then I ever remember in the past. He has been working 89-91 and hit 93. Now if he could get the ball down

[MrCinatit]

When he was in AAA, we heard many concerns about his command.
For the life of me, I cannot remember who it was, but someone (coach? former player? vet?) said he needed a lot of work on his control - and if I recall correctly, Homer was recalled about a week later.
The kid has shown a few flashes of brilliance, but he has also shown many instances where he needs to do a lot of work.
With the current on field management and the losing atmosphere in the Reds clubhouse, this is frankly the last place I want him. Remember. Losing is like a disease...like the bubonic plague.

[MrCinatit]

AFLAC Trivia Question: Three Phillies have had 200 hits and 30 HRs in the same season. Who are they?

My guesses:
Chuck Klein
Richie Allen
Mike Schmidt

I believe George Grande had guessed "Pete Rose, Pete Rose, Pete Rose."
George knows his baseball.

[Big Klu]

Losing is like a disease...like the bubonic plague.

Imagine you are on a ship, at sea. Gently rocking...gently rocking....

[penantboundreds]

Losing is instilled in this clubhouse, I will grant that, but Homer seems to have a head on his shoulders that will get him through all that hogwash.

[Matt700wlw]

Narron's changing pitchers.

He's going to use all of them tonight, for no reason, isn't he?

[Big Klu]

I believe George Grande had guessed "Pete Rose, Pete Rose, Pete Rose."
George knows his baseball.

Geez, George...Pete never hit more than 16 homers in a season!

[jojo]

Walking nearly four batters per nine innings in AAA isn't mowing down hitters, and it isn't being undermatched.

Exactly, he had two good outings in a row where he manhandeled the lineup with plently of flags in his peripherals before that which suggested command issues. Two good outings and BAM, here he is. I said before his call up that if it was me, Homer wouldn't come up until about 5-6 starts past the poit where it was painfully obvious he was ready.

Homer is the most valubale commodity in this organisation. His development should be treated differently than other arms the Reds have collected.

[Kc61]

Narron's changing pitchers.

He's going to use all of them tonight, for no reason, isn't he?

He's trying to create the illusion that this is a competitive athletic endeavor.

[flyer85]

Narron really confuses me most of the time.

[Matt700wlw]

He's trying to create the illusion that this is a competitive athletic endeavor.

I think he's just bored.

[Matt700wlw]

:lol:

Coffey

[Big Klu]

Narron's changing pitchers.

He's going to use all of them tonight, for no reason, isn't he?

I'm not anti-Jerry, but I've given up trying to figure him out. :confused:

As I type this, Coffey gives up a three-run double. :(

[Reds Fanatic]

Coffey immediately gives up a 3 run double on the first pitch. 10-2 Phillies.

Fastball right down the middle.

[flyer85]

I honestly thought Gosling wasn't throwing it that bad, I just don't understand the pitching change in that situation.

[guttle11]

I'm teetering on the brink of wanting them to roll over and quit. Anything to up the chances that Narron is fired.

[CTA513]

Gosling could have done that and also gave you an inning or two more.

[penantboundreds]

Now Coffey can't let that guy score from second because that would mess up HIS e.r.a. we can't let that happen.

[flyer85]

with all the inherited runners that score every guy in the pen has to hate Narron.

[Matt700wlw]

I'm teetering on the brink of wanting them to roll over and quit. Anything to up the chances that Narron is fired.

They've already quit

[jojo]

We call for the youth movement....bring up one of the youth, and scream he's not ready.

Are we doing the youth movement or not? Are we letting them take their lumps now or are we not? I say bring more youth! No reason to play for the current...play for the future

Which is it....can't call for it and then yell about it when it happens.

A youth movement is fine and dandy except when it may stunt the development of your most valubale commodity.

You can't learn to master your secondary stuff in the majors if you never throw it.

The Reds seemed to have fallen off the wagon concenring a plan for Homer's development. It's criminal that he's not throwing his curve more as a Red. It's absolute BS.

[Cyclone792]

After tonight's loss, the Reds will be 18-43 (.295) in games not started by Aaron Harang.

[Reds Fanatic]

with all the inherited runners that score every guy in the pen has to hate Narron.
With those 3 inherited runners Gosling's ERA balloons up to 9.82.

[MrCinatit]

After tonight's loss, the Reds will be 18-43 (.295) in games not started by Aaron Harang.

Don't let Jerry see that, or Aaron will be starting every other night.

[Big Klu]

After tonight's loss, the Reds will be 18-43 (.295) in games not started by Aaron Harang.

Yet I've been told that Aaron's not an All-Star caliber player.

[WVRedsFan]

AS much as I hate to say or admit it, we're just not very good.

and neither is the GM who created the team or the manager who manages it.

[Matt700wlw]

Yet I've been told that Aaron's not an All-Star caliber player.

Whomever told you that is wrong.

[Big Klu]

Whomever told you that is wrong.

Oh, I agree with you, but I've been told that.

[CTA513]

I honestly thought Gosling wasn't throwing it that bad, I just don't understand the pitching change in that situation.

Its a way to use even more bullpen arms tonight.

[Aronchis]

Bailey wasn't "mowing" down AAA hitters. Gallardo was mowing them down, Bailey wasn't. He was improving by the time they yanked him out, but months to quickly.

[Reds Fanatic]

Junior drives in a run with a sac. fly. 10-3 Phillies.

[Matt700wlw]

The Griffeys!

[flyer85]

How can the Reds be losing? they have 2 sac flies.

[jojo]

After tonight's loss, the Reds will be 18-43 (.295) in games not started by Aaron Harang.

If someone would've told you in March that Weathers would've converted as many save opps as he has, Hamilton would hold his own, Jr and Dunn would've done what they've done, Phillips would look like he's taken a step forward at second, Hatteberg would play like he has, and Harang would be Harang, would you have guessed they'd have the worst record in baseball in late June?


In my mind the only major question mark coming into the season that hasn't been answered positively was the pen.

[Matt700wlw]

:dunn:

:jump:

[Reds Fanatic]

Dunn with a long homer to right. Home run #21 for Dunn. 10-4 Phillies.

[guttle11]

Is it time to bring back a forum favorite?


I'm not giving up. This one's still winnable.

[flyer85]

meaningless HR ... typical

[jojo]

meaningless HR ... typical


It only seems meaningless right now. This one may not be over.

[SirFelixCat]

Just curious...

y'all think Tigers fans were saying these very things about Bonderman when he lost 19 games a couple years back? Just sayin'....

[Aronchis]

Just curious...

y'all think Tigers fans were saying these very things about Bonderman when he lost 19 games a couple years back? Just sayin'....

I bet, but Bonderman was rushed as well.

[Matt700wlw]

Just curious...

y'all think Tigers fans were saying these very things about Bonderman when he lost 19 games a couple years back? Just sayin'....

Probably.

Tom Glavine didn't exactly light the world on fire either in his first THREE seasons.

[KronoRed]

How can the Reds be losing? they have 2 sac flies.

This reminds me, do the Reds ever win when Dunn hits sac flys? from what I remember is they are usually on the losing end when he does.

[Matt700wlw]

I bet, but Bonderman was rushed as well.

He's ruined. Toast.

[flyer85]

It only seems meaningless right now. This one may not be over.sarcasm ... my friend

[flyer85]

Coffey vs Howard ... DUCK

[Matt700wlw]

Coffey vs Howard ... DUCK

I think Howard the Duck could get a hit off Coffey

[Kc61]

If someone would've told you in March that Weathers would've converted as many save opps as he has, Hamilton would hold his own, Jr and Dunn would've done what they've done, Phillips would look like he's taken a step forward at second, Hatteberg would play like he has, and Harang would be Harang, would you have guessed they'd have the worst record in baseball in late June?


In my mind the only major question mark coming into the season that hasn't been answered positively was the pen.


Good post. Something is terribly wrong with this team. Even if you look at the team's run differential, and compare it to other teams, the Reds shouldn't be this bad. They are a "second division" team playing like a "third division" team.

Maybe that's the result of a bad bullpen, you lose close games. Maybe it's the lack of clutch hitting. Maybe it's the manager making wrong moves. Or a combination.

But you just get the feeling that this team should not be this bad. Now the bullpen is young, but earlier this year it was more experienced and still failed. Saarloos, Majewski, whatever.

If I were Cast, I would be bringing in new people to evaluate this situation. It shouldn't be this bad.

[Matt700wlw]

This team is about to be 19 games under .500.

So glad they're standing pat and not trying to shake the foundation of this club.

[Big Klu]

Updated Reds HR list (players in italics are active):

Reds All-Time Home Run Leaders
1. Johnny Bench - 389
2. Frank Robinson - 324
3. Tony Perez - 287
4. Ted Kluszewski - 251
5. George Foster - 244
6. Adam Dunn - 219
7. Eric Davis - 203
8. Barry Larkin - 198
9. Vada Pinson - 186
9. Ken Griffey, Jr. - 186
11. Wally Post - 172
12. Gus Bell - 160
13. Joe Morgan - 152
13. Pete Rose - 152
15. Lee May - 147
16. Dan Driessen - 133
17. Reggie Sanders - 125
18. Ernie Lombardi - 120
19. Sean Casey - 118
20. Frank McCormick - 110
21. Dave Parker - 107
22. Chris Sabo - 104
23. Dave Concepcion - 101
24. Gordy Coleman - 98
25. Paul O'Neill - 96

[Aronchis]

Coffey has to be the most dissappointing pitcher in the Reds organization this year.

[flyer85]

Howard with 3 Ks in the first 5 innings ... he stinks

[Matt700wlw]

Coffey has to be the most dissappointing pitcher in the Reds organization this year.

Maybe he's not ready ;)

[Cyclone792]

If someone would've told you in March that Weathers would've converted as many save opps as he has, Hamilton would hold his own, Jr and Dunn would've done what they've done, Phillips would look like he's taken a step forward at second, Hatteberg would play like he has, and Harang would be Harang, would you have guessed they'd have the worst record in baseball in late June?

In my mind the only major question mark coming into the season that hasn't been answered positively was the pen.

If anybody would have told me the Reds would be this bad with all those things going right, I'd have been guessing serious injuries to guys like Arroyo, Lohse, Belisle, and Encarnacion.

[flyer85]

This team is about to be 19 games under .500.
I have a feeling they won't reside there for very long.

[jojo]

Just curious...

y'all think Tigers fans were saying these very things about Bonderman when he lost 19 games a couple years back? Just sayin'....

In 2003, Bonderman was a considerably better pitcher than Homer is right now.

No one is saying Homer is overrated or that he sucks. I think most of us are simply wondering whether he's ready enough to be learning on the job so to speak.

I don't think anyone is piling on Homer or dumping on him. I think he's got the best stuff of anyone on the Reds staff. I could definately see where he could be dominating. I'm just not sure that the way the Reds are handling him isn't contrary to his and their best interests right now.

[Big Klu]

Coffey has to be the most dissappointing pitcher in the Reds organization this year.

I agree, but according to the boxscore, he just pitched 1.1 innings of scoreless relief. So it looks like he was effective tonight, though he obviously wasn't.

[Matt700wlw]

I have a feeling they won't reside there for very long.

This team may end the year somewhere around 40 games under .500

:cry:

[KronoRed]

Coffey has to be the most dissappointing pitcher in the Reds organization this year.

Arroyo?

[Matt700wlw]

Arroyo?

Him too

[Matt700wlw]

Kendrick skipped AAA

[Matt700wlw]

Lohse scheduled to go Saturday....there is no good reason for this to happen.

[guttle11]

Kendrick skipped AAA

Not tonight.

[Matt700wlw]

Homer has as many wins as Arroyo...in 4 starts.

[Cyclone792]

Did Marty just say that Arroyo is now pitching Friday instead of Saturday?

If so, let me get this straight ... the Reds had an off day yesterday and could have allowed Arroyo to get another extra day of rest before his next start, but instead Narron moves him up a day in the rotation.

Seriously, with all of Arroyo's problems ... why?

[Big Klu]

I think Howard the Duck could get a hit off Coffey

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/d7/Howard_The_Duck_-8.jpg

[KronoRed]

Lohse scheduled to go Saturday....there is no good reason for this to happen.

Thanks the last 3 GM's, no other Homer's are near to replace Lohse

[jojo]

Not tonight.

OUCH!

[Big Klu]

Did Marty just say that Arroyo is now pitching Friday instead of Saturday?

If so, let me get this straight ... the Reds had an off day yesterday and could have allowed Arroyo to get another extra day of rest before his next start, but instead Narron moves him up a day in the rotation.

Seriously, with all of Arroyo's problems ... why?

Who is getting skipped?

[KronoRed]

Did Marty just say that Arroyo is now pitching Friday instead of Saturday?

If so, let me get this straight ... the Reds had an off day yesterday and could have allowed Arroyo to get another extra day of rest before his next start, but instead Narron moves him up a day in the rotation.

Seriously, with all of Arroyo's problems ... why?

Well obviously the only way Arroyo is going to get better to to throw him out there more and more! :cool:

[flyer85]

Did Marty just say that Arroyo is now pitching Friday instead of Saturday?

If so, let me get this straight ... the Reds had an off day yesterday and could have allowed Arroyo to get another extra day of rest before his next start, but instead Narron moves him up a day in the rotation.

Seriously, with all of Arroyo's problems ... why?do they need a reason? There doesn't seem to be one for anything else.

[Red in Chicago]

Lohse scheduled to go Saturday....there is no good reason for this to happen.

while his last three starts were aweful, they were against the a's, angels and mariners...certainly not horrible teams. cards should hopefully be a little easier to handle...

[jojo]

Who is getting skipped?

If correct, it would be Lohse....

[Matt700wlw]

Wow...Marty! Ripping Greg Doyel for a comment he made on his show the other day....and frankly, he deserves it.

If anybody heard it, I think you know what he's talking about...

[flyer85]

If anybody heard it, I think you know what he's talking about...
care to enlighten?

[jojo]

Wow...Marty! Ripping Greg Doyel for a comment he made on his show the other day....and frankly, he deserves it.

He was charismatic during an interview on one of the few of Lance's shows I've caught over the last few months. I've heard him a few times in the morning slot and his act wears really thin really quickly for me...

[flyer85]

Hopper sighting.


JN warming him up for his start tomorrow.

[Matt700wlw]

care to enlighten?

He basically said the Reds bullpen is so bad, they should sign Rod Beck...this of course, right after he passed away. Something to that effect.

....it was definitely not the best thing to say. It was tasteless......and so far, no appology for it.


Rule #1. If you're a host, don't piss Marty off.

[Big Klu]

Hopper sighting.


JN warming him up for his start tomorrow.

Hopper leads off with a PH walk.

[Falls City Beer]

If anybody would have told me the Reds would be this bad with all those things going right, I'd have been guessing serious injuries to guys like Arroyo, Lohse, Belisle, and Encarnacion.

Yeah. I was going to say--what's wrong is the rotation. More fool's gold. I know the pen gets all the press, but the starters (outside of Harang) have been a massive disappointment (though not terribly surprising to me).

[Matt700wlw]

Yeah. I was going to say--what's wrong is the rotation. More fool's gold. I know the pen gets all the press, but the starters (outside of Harang) have been a massive disappointment (though not terribly surprising to me).

So is Harang good or not? You've been all over him this season as well.

[Falls City Beer]

So is Harang good or not? You've been all over him this season as well.

He's turned it around and gained some consistency.

[Big Klu]

Santos in to pitch.

[CTA513]

Long relief man pitching the 7th for the Reds.

[Matt700wlw]

You have to wonder how much more of this disaster ownership will watch before heads start rolling?

[flyer85]

You have to wonder how much more of this disaster ownership will watch before heads start rolling?I thought that a month ago, especially with the supposed rep of Battlin' Bob.

Now I am resigned to nothing happening.

[Big Klu]

Señor Howard with the Golden Sombrero.

[CTA513]

Señor Howard with the Golden Sombrero.

He would probably be around the same amount of strikeouts as Dunn if he didn't spend time on the DL earlier this season.

[penantboundreds]

time for an interim manager

[Matt700wlw]

time for an interim manager

Time for something....anything, at this point.

[flyer85]

time for an interim managerand a new GM

[flyer85]

He would probably be around the same amount of strikeouts as Dunn if he didn't spend time on the DL earlier this season.
Ks don't matter for Howard

[Marc D]

You have to wonder how much more of this disaster ownership will watch before heads start rolling?

Hows attendance? If that starts to go then maybe, in the meantime they aren't throwing in the towel and have a winner as manager so BC must be content.

[Big Klu]

Castro now at SS.
Salmon now pitching.

I'm assuming it was a double switch.

[edabbs44]

He would probably be around the same amount of strikeouts as Dunn if he didn't spend time on the DL earlier this season.

He hit 80 points higher than Dunn did last year. That's the difference. No one would care if Dunn made all of his outs via the strikeout. Dunn doesn't get enough hits. He might avoid outs, but he doesn't get enough hits.

[KronoRed]

I thought that a month ago, especially with the supposed rep of Battlin' Bob.

Now I am resigned to nothing happening.

Stay the course.

[Matt700wlw]

Hows attendance? If that starts to go then maybe, in the meantime they aren't throwing in the towel and have a winner as manager so BC must be content.

Bob should never has said that....he looks rather foolish for doing so. I understand having your employees backs, and that's fine....but the "he's a winner" comment was laughable.

[westofyou]

Hows attendance? If that starts to go then maybe, in the meantime they aren't throwing in the towel and have a winner as manager so BC must be content.

Over 25K a game, the AL has 6 teams under 25 K, the teams in FLA are around 17K, send one to Portland.

[flyer85]

Castro now at SS.
Salmon now pitching.

I'm assuming it was a double switch.crafty

[flyer85]

Stay the course.which course is that?

[westofyou]

which course is that?

The one where you fire everyone every 2 years and nothing ever gets done.

[KronoRed]

which course is that?

Dunno, but I expect we'll hear about it and "continutity" soon

[Marc D]

Over 25K a game, the AL has 6 teams under 25 K, the teams in FLA are around 17K, send one to Portland.


Then I'd say settle in and enjoy. Nothing much will change.