Should Reds Keep Dunn and Griffey?

[BucksandReds]

Over the course of this season I have gone from Dunn is going to have a monster year, to same old Dunn, to Dunn is good but not worth 13 million to Dunn just needs a long term contract at less that 13 million per season. At the same time after having thought about the exciement of passing 600 HRs in Cincy and maybe 660 2 years from now I think that we should keep Griffey too.

Ok say we sign a long term deal with Dunn for about 8-10 million per year for 5 years. If you don't think that a guy who brings in the kind of runs he does is worth that then I don't know what to say to you. Great hitters make 15-25 million per year. Adam Dunn is not a great hitter. That doesn't mean that he does not have alot of value on this team. If not then pick up his option and either trade him for value next July or lose him to free agency and get a high vale compensentory pick in the draft. EIther way it does not appear that anyone is interested in giving us anything good this year. Don't just give him away.

Griffey is going to sell some tickets this August and September because everyone is going to want to watch him break 600. He is still our big ticket, he is producing, he still hustles (did you see the double play breaking slide today?), he isn't a liability imo in the outfield and he gives just a little credibility to this struggling team that other teams like KC, Tampa Bay, Pittsburgh and others don't have. It's going to be alot of fun for all fans to watch him break 600 and hopefully climb into the top 4 all time in HRS in a couple of years.

What I would do if I were Krivsky is bring up Votto and have him as my everyday 1st baseman with Conine and Hatteburg as still very cheap and very good pinch hitters that can also play in the field. I then spend my money if the offseason to get proven veteren (but not OLD) bullpen help. I'm not talking about signing a 40 year old to a 2 million dollar contract. I'm talking about signing a 28-30 year old for 5 million.

I think that a scenaio like this is much more likely because Castellini wants to win today rather than 2 years from now. We are not as bad as the record. The bullpen needs to mature and get some help. That can happen in 1 year.

[Degenerate39]

Absolutely keep Dunn and Griffey. Sign Dunn long term and keep Griff until Bruce is ready for the majors if Griffey is even around then. Bring up Votto trade Hatte keep Conine for the rest of the year as a bench player.

[jimbo]

Absolutely keep Dunn and Griffey. Sign Dunn long term and keep Griff until Bruce is ready for the majors if Griffey is even around then. Bring up Votto trade Hatte keep Conine for the rest of the year as a bench player.

So basically keep with the status quo?

[HokieRed]

As of right now, Milwaukee is sliding. If you're like me and think the Cubs are really likely to win the division, the Reds are now 8.5 games behind. Do you sell at 8.5 out early in July? I know any thought of contention seems ridiculous, but this team is at its strongest right now--stands to get even better with Bray about ready--and the division is horrible. Stranger things have happened.

[He got it!]

Yes.

[Degenerate39]

So basically keep with the status quo?

Pretty much personally when I look at the Reds I don't see a bad team like they've been playing before Mac came in. If you would've told me that Griffey would have 23 home runs, Dunn would have 24, Harang would be 9-2, Hamilton would be a surprise, Phillips have an All-Star first half, Gonzo have double digit homers. I would've thought this was a first place team in the Central. But a lot of the guys that were suppose to produce didn't. Arroyo didn't win like he was suppose to, Edwin and Ross were suppose to be hitters, the pen was suppose to be better.

[Chi-Town Red]

the problem is Bruce is going to be ready very,very soon

[He got it!]

Good point Chi - Town, it is somewhat of a dilema. Too bad the Reds don't have the same problem in their bullpen. It seems like as long as I have been a Reds fan there has been 5 great OF's for 3 spots and 1 great RP for 6 spots. Hmmmm.

[nate]

If you keep them, get a league average starter, a decent closer and let 'em play.

If you trade them, make sure you get (whether through the trade or free agency) a #1 or 2 starter, a couple of lights out BP dudes and a RH power bat. I don't have names off the top of my head but those are the "profiles" I'd look for.

[jimbo]

Pretty much personally when I look at the Reds I don't see a bad team like they've been playing before Mac came in. If you would've told me that Griffey would have 23 home runs, Dunn would have 24, Harang would be 9-2, Hamilton would be a surprise, Phillips have an All-Star first half, Gonzo have double digit homers. I would've thought this was a first place team in the Central. But a lot of the guys that were suppose to produce didn't. Arroyo didn't win like he was suppose to, Edwin and Ross were suppose to be hitters, the pen was suppose to be better.

I can't argue with that, you make some good points. They may not be as bad as they have shown, but in my opinion they are still not a very good team though. There is a lot of inconsistancy at the 3-5 spots in the rotation, the bullpen is still relatively inexperienced and has holes, there is still not a true leadoff type hitter or even a two-hole hitter for that matter, and the outfield is still below average defensively. I'd also like to see some more professional type of hitters so they do not have to rely on the home run so much. In order to solve those issues, something has to change which means people will have to be traded. As much as I like Dunn and Griffey, they are the biggest bargaining chips (besides Weathers) the organization has.

Keeping them and considering them a long-term solution is just staying with the status quo in my opinion, and that hasn't been working at all.

[Degenerate39]

I can't argue with that, you make some good points. They may not be as bad as they have shown, but in my opinion they are still not a very good team though. There is a lot of inconsistancy at the 3-5 spots in the rotation, the bullpen is still relatively inexperienced and has holes, there is still not a true leadoff type hitter or even a two-hole hitter for that matter, and the outfield is still below average defensively. I'd also like to see some more professional type of hitters so they do not have to rely on the home run so much. In order to solve those issues, something has to change which means people will have to be traded. As much as I like Dunn and Griffey, they are the biggest bargaining chips (besides Weathers) the organization has.

Keeping them and considering them a long-term solution is just staying with the status quo in my opinion, and that hasn't been working at all.

You're not going to get a cheaper consistant power hitter than Dunn. I love Griffey to death but he'd be my choice of the two to go but really what are you going to get for a 37 year old man that has bad legs? You currently aren't going to get one of the key pieces the team needs. If you're going to trade anyone on the team those people would be (at least for me): Lohse, Hatte, Conine, Weathers, and possibly Freel. Maybe a package deal for a above average prospect?

[BucksandReds]

You're not going to get a cheaper consistant power hitter than Dunn. I love Griffey to death but he'd be my choice of the two to go but really what are you going to get for a 37 year old man that has bad legs? You currently aren't going to get one of the key pieces the team needs. If you're going to trade anyone on the team those people would be (at least for me): Lohse, Hatte, Conine, Weathers, and possibly Freel. Maybe a package deal for a above average prospect?

You dont think that Griffey hitting 600 and then maybe 660 is going to bring in millions of dollars, recogonition and appreciation by the people of Cincy? IMHO if you trade Griffey now you got him right when he started to get injured and you got rid of him right before his greatest accomplishments. I keep Griffey for sure and he retires a Red. This is about legacy and history with one of the top 10 all time hitters in baseball as much as it is about wins and losses.
Do you think that with a decent bullpen we would be within strinking distance of the divison lead at the very least? I do. thats why I spend real money on a big time relief pitcher or two and dont put a band aid on a battleship again by signing old pitchers at 2.5 million apiece. Dont half *ss your bullpen again Krivsky.

[Degenerate39]

You dont think that Griffey hitting 600 and then maybe 660 is going to bring in millions of dollars, recogonition and appreciation by the people of Cincy? IMHO if you trade Griffey now you got him right when he started to get injured and you got rid of him right before his greatest accomplishments. I keep Griffey for sure and he retires a Red. This is about legacy and history with one of the top 10 all time hitters in baseball as much as it is about wins and losses.
Do you think that with a decent bullpen we would be within strinking distance of the divison lead at the very least? I do. thats why I spend real money on a big time relief pitcher or two and dont put a band aid on a battleship again by signing old pitchers at 2.5 million apiece. Dont half *ss your bullpen again Krivsky.

That's exactly why I dont want to trade Junior. I never said I wanted him out of here. I'm just saying how much longer is he going to be around the bigs? Adam Dunn will be around much longer.

[jmac]

Over the course of this season I have gone from Dunn is going to have a monster year, to same old Dunn, to Dunn is good but not worth 13 million to Dunn just needs a long term contract at less that 13 million per season. At the same time after having thought about the exciement of passing 600 HRs in Cincy and maybe 660 2 years from now I think that we should keep Griffey too.

Ok say we sign a long term deal with Dunn for about 8-10 million per year for 5 years. If you don't think that a guy who brings in the kind of runs he does is worth that then I don't know what to say to you. Great hitters make 15-25 million per year. Adam Dunn is not a great hitter. That doesn't mean that he does not have alot of value on this team. If not then pick up his option and either trade him for value next July or lose him to free agency and get a high vale compensentory pick in the draft. EIther way it does not appear that anyone is interested in giving us anything good this year. Don't just give him away.

Griffey is going to sell some tickets this August and September because everyone is going to want to watch him break 600. He is still our big ticket, he is producing, he still hustles (did you see the double play breaking slide today?), he isn't a liability imo in the outfield and he gives just a little credibility to this struggling team that other teams like KC, Tampa Bay, Pittsburgh and others don't have. It's going to be alot of fun for all fans to watch him break 600 and hopefully climb into the top 4 all time in HRS in a couple of years.

What I would do if I were Krivsky is bring up Votto and have him as my everyday 1st baseman with Conine and Hatteburg as still very cheap and very good pinch hitters that can also play in the field. I then spend my money if the offseason to get proven veteren (but not OLD) bullpen help. I'm not talking about signing a 40 year old to a 2 million dollar contract. I'm talking about signing a 28-30 year old for 5 million.

I think that a scenaio like this is much more likely because Castellini wants to win today rather than 2 years from now. We are not as bad as the record. The bullpen needs to mature and get some help. That can happen in 1 year.

I agree for the most part with you. I still wonder where this team would be if during the offseason we would have moved BP to SS and used Freel at 2nd.
Took the money we spent on guys like Stanton and Gonzalez and either put on Gagne or a closer.Then we would have had basically the same offence plus a bonafide closer and the main thing......Weathers for the 8th inning or on occasion the 7th and 8th if needed.
I know what they say about hindsight but now,that looks like it would have been a good move.
Peronally i dont feel like this team is to far off,justa little tinkering.
I would like to see Votto at first for the 2nd half and let him get his feet wet.

[ChatterRed]

This team is a good bullpen and decent RH power bat away from contending. Revamp the bullpen in the offseason and use the saving on Milton's $10 million to bring in a good RH power bat.

If they could do that, I think they could contend. They'd probably have to up the payroll another $10 million to about $80 mill by the time they sign Dunn longterm, sign a RH power bat, and sign some decent closers.

I still think if they do all that they could contend.

[AmarilloRed]

We will keep both Dunn and Griffey through the middle of next year. If we cannot sign Adam Dunn to a multi-year deal by the trading deadline next year, we will then trade him for prospects at the trading deadline.As for Griffey, I believe next year is the last year of his contract with several options. The Reds could keep him and pick up his option year(s), or they could also trade him for prospects at the deadline next year. Bruce will be ready to replace Griffey at some point next year in right field,and we could see both of our superstars traded next year.

[tripleaaaron]

This team is a good bullpen and decent RH power bat away from contending. Revamp the bullpen in the offseason and use the saving on Milton's $10 million to bring in a good RH power bat.

If they could do that, I think they could contend. They'd probably have to up the payroll another $10 million to about $80 mill by the time they sign Dunn longterm, sign a RH power bat, and sign some decent closers.

I still think if they do all that they could contend.

Where does this RH power bat going to play if we keep Dunn and Griff? Our lineup is pretty set unless we move one of those two guys.

[reds44]

This team is a good bullpen and decent RH power bat away from contending. Revamp the bullpen in the offseason and use the saving on Milton's $10 million to bring in a good RH power bat.

If they could do that, I think they could contend. They'd probably have to up the payroll another $10 million to about $80 mill by the time they sign Dunn longterm, sign a RH power bat, and sign some decent closers.

I still think if they do all that they could contend.
Not calling you out, but this is what I hate about this organization. They also think they are just this far away from competing. We're not just that far. We're 17(?) games under going to the ASG. That's nowhere near competing. I'm glad Narron's gone, but he's not the entire reason we were 20 games under.

One of them must be traded if not both. Griffey will probably have to wait until July 2008, but trade Dunn now. Stop trying to rebuild and contend at the same time.

[berryluther]

Absolutely keep Dunn and Griffey. Sign Dunn long term and keep Griff until Bruce is ready for the majors if Griffey is even around then. Bring up Votto trade Hatte keep Conine for the rest of the year as a bench player.

Regardless of what some people on this board think Jay Bruce will be on our 25 man roster out of SP next year.

[durl]

Definitely keep Griffey. I believe Dunn should be a trade option IF the Reds could get some strong bullpen help along with a decent bat but I have doubts about getting both for Dunn.

[Orenda]

Definitely keep Griffey. I believe Dunn should be a trade option IF the Reds could get some strong bullpen help along with a decent bat but I have doubts about getting both for Dunn.

Maybe I should lower my expectations for a Dunn return, but to me it seems like Krivsky and the reds are losing the pr battle with Dunn. I'd like it if they said something like: We are willing to listen to offers for Dunn, but if not presented with a suitable offer we're comfortable exercising his option and building for 2008 with Adam as a member of our organization. I keep hearing the term rent-a-player being thrown around, which he might be for someone that would acquire him this year. But unlike Soriano last year w/ the nationals the reds have the leverage with his option. Barring injury there will still be interest in Dunn before next year or at the deadline. Then you get what you can

[JLB5]

Not calling you out, but this is what I hate about this organization. They also think they are just this far away from competing. We're not just that far. We're 17(?) games under going to the ASG. That's nowhere near competing. I'm glad Narron's gone, but he's not the entire reason we were 20 games under.

One of them must be traded if not both. Griffey will probably have to wait until July 2008, but trade Dunn now. Stop trying to rebuild and contend at the same time.


There is a good deal of truth in this post. I remember when the Reds had Larkin traded only to have Uncle Carl suddenly pull out the checkbook and give into the "Save Barry" campaign. The problem: having nearly half of the team payroll locked up in 2 hitters. The number 1 principle in Moneyball is wins per dollar. Paying both Dunn and Griffey will keep this team mediocre because too much of the payroll is tied up in slugging rather than pitching. If they can bankroll Dunn's money into improving 2-3 other positions and getting a rough replacement for his bat with Votto, they will be much closer to being a contender.

[HokieRed]

Too bad K didn't keep B. Harris, pretty nice right handed bat, could be put at 3d with a move of EE to left (or vice versa). OF EE/Freel/Ham [until Bruce]; Harris/Gonzo/Phillips/Votto. C: Tatum. With that arrangement, we could trade Dunn, Griffey, Hatteberg, Conine, Ross, Valentin.
2009 lineup:
Hamilton
EE
Bruce
Votto
Harris
Phillips
Gonzalez
Tatum

[Orenda]

There is a good deal of truth in this post. I remember when the Reds had Larkin traded only to have Uncle Carl suddenly pull out the checkbook and give into the "Save Barry" campaign. The problem: having nearly half of the team payroll locked up in 2 hitters. The number 1 principle in Moneyball is wins per dollar. Paying both Dunn and Griffey will keep this team mediocre because too much of the payroll is tied up in slugging rather than pitching. If they can bankroll Dunn's money into improving 2-3 other positions and getting a rough replacement for his bat with Votto, they will be much closer to being a contender.

Would you accept a lesser return simply to get Dunn's contract off the books? If they are doing a rebuild why not pick up the option if you don't feel your receiving good value for your slugger. It would give Bruce another year to develop in the minors and possibly in the majors without all the pressure. Its funny because I've never been a huge Dunn supporter, but can also recognize his value. Also, in baseball today can you bankroll 13 million to improve 2-3 positions?

[JLB5]

Would you accept a lesser return simply to get Dunn's contract off the books? If they are doing a rebuild why not pick up the option if you don't feel your receiving good value for your slugger. It would give Bruce another year to develop in the minors and possibly in the majors without all the pressure. Its funny because I've never been a huge Dunn supporter, but can also recognize his value. Also, in baseball today can you bankroll 13 million to improve 2-3 positions?

I'm not totally against picking up Dunn's option, but I don't think it is the best way to maximize value. I think you can upgrade multiple positions by moving his contract and thus make the team better. Let's say you can get 90% of Dunn's production out of Votto at 1B and receive a RH OF in return for Dunn who can replace Hattenine's production with plus D and speed (preferrably a young guy who will be cheap for the next 5 years). Right there you have at least equal offensive production and upgraded defense and still have $$ left to put into pitching. That's moneyball.

[Orenda]

I would be ok with that type of scenario if it played out that way. I'm sure Votto will be up some time soon, once room can be made, however he is still an unproven commodity. My main issue is not losing Dunn, because I recognize his departure could lead to improvements, but that they will not receive a fair return for a high obp 100runs 100 rbi player. Another question. Do you expect a gm who payed Stanton, Castro, Cormier, to play moneyball? The same gm who got dealt a lesson in moneyball, Kirk Saarloos?

[BigJohn]

Do you really think Dunn will sign a 5 year 50 million dollar contract? What is his open market value? I think he will hold out for more $$$$. I wouldn't blame him for that either seeing how he is the red zone whipping boy!

[Driver62]

I would trade Dunn and keep Griffey for several reasons.
1. Griffey is a 5 and 10 man and can void any trade.
2. Dunn is not a very good defensive player and strikes out way too much. You could also free up a bunch of money which I would hope they would spend on pitching.
3. Griffey is, in my opinion, a better player than Dunn.
4. You have Hopper and Freel to platoon in left field. And yes, I think Hopper has the makings of a very good player.
I would not trade both as they are the only two legit power guys on the team. I know other players can hit HR's but most of that comes about from the bandbox they play in.
Remember, they play half their games on the road. Trading both would be a big mistake.

[larryboy]

Dunn is young enough to include in a rebuild. Dunn will still be a prime player 2-3 years down the line when the Reds are likely to be reaping the benefits of a rebuild which should make them a very competitive team. (that's the plan anyway)

Griffey is awesome but he's just too old, too injured, too expensive. Keeping both is just not working for this organization. The market for Griffey will be thin but this team needs to break out of the status quo. Send him to a contender or call Seattle they'll take him. Get Balentine and middle reliever from Seattle. Adam Jones is untouchable and will be joing the MLB club this week. Too bad because he would look good in red. Balentine has not received the attention but he is an attractive prospect who Seattle will likely trade because they are out of options but do not want two rookies in the outfield. The Reds need to invest in better scouting and development. The system is getting a bit better but still could be much better.

[durl]

Do you really think Dunn will sign a 5 year 50 million dollar contract? What is his open market value? I think he will hold out for more $$$$. I wouldn't blame him for that either seeing how he is the red zone whipping boy!

I honestly wonder if ANOTHER team will offer Dunn that kind of contract. Perhaps an AL team will like his offensive production and bring him in for big bucks but I just have my doubts that an NL team will give Dunn $13-14 million. Still, I could be wrong...

[EddieMilner]

The Reds should definitely listen to offers for anyone not named Hamilton, Phillips, EE, Harang, and Bailey. If they get a good offer for anyone else that will help this team be a winner for 2009, then take it.
The Reds need to have a team next year that improves as the year goes on and ends up with right around .500. Then in 2009 all the experience the young players had in 2008 will pay off and you can make a serious run at the series.

The solid lineup I see for 2009 is:
1B - Votto
2B - Phillips
SS - ???
3B - EE
LF - ???
CF - Hamilton
RF - Bruce
C - ???

I feel that one of the three ? positions needs to be filled with a good lead off guy. High OBP and speed. If EE comes around and hits like he was advertised, then I feel that he is a solid clean-up guy. That gives the line-up as:
1. SS/LF
2. Hamilton
3. Bruce
4. EE
5. Votto
6. Phillips
7. SS/LF
8. C

That seems like a pretty good line-up, very young but with a lot of potential.

Next the Rotation will look like:
1. Harang
2. Bailey
3. Arroyo
4. ???
5. ???

Here are the guys going for those 4 and 5 spots:
1. Johnny Cueto
2. Carlos Fischer
3. Matt Belisle
4. Sean Watson
5. Travis Wood
6. Bobby Livingston
7. Phil Dumatrait
8. Elizardo Ramirez
9. Someother LHP because we will need one in the rotation.

Bullpen will be made up of the young guys there now, and best of the guys that don't make the rotation. I hope that someone in that group gets good in a hurry.

So looking at all of this, I feel that we have to get rid of Griffey and Dunn. Griffey so we can give Bruce some time next year. Dunn because if we keep him, our lead off will have to be a SS. I would rather have the opportunity of finding a lead off hitter over two positions (LF or SS). By limiting us to a SS lead off hitter, the chances of failing are quite large.

Lastly, Hamilton should not lead off. He is the perfect second batter and we will be successful if we can have each batter at their most desirable batting position.

[improbus]

The Reds should definitely listen to offers for anyone not named Hamilton, Phillips, EE, Harang, and Bailey. If they get a good offer for anyone else that will help this team be a winner for 2009, then take it.
The Reds need to have a team next year that improves as the year goes on and ends up with right around .500. Then in 2009 all the experience the young players had in 2008 will pay off and you can make a serious run at the series.

The solid lineup I see for 2009 is:
1B - Votto
2B - Phillips
SS - ???
3B - EE
LF - ???
CF - Hamilton
RF - Bruce
C - ???

I feel that one of the three ? positions needs to be filled with a good lead off guy. High OBP and speed. If EE comes around and hits like he was advertised, then I feel that he is a solid clean-up guy. That gives the line-up as:
1. SS/LF
2. Hamilton
3. Bruce
4. EE
5. Votto
6. Phillips
7. SS/LF
8. C

That seems like a pretty good line-up, very young but with a lot of potential.

Next the Rotation will look like:
1. Harang
2. Bailey
3. Arroyo
4. ???
5. ???

Here are the guys going for those 4 and 5 spots:
1. Johnny Cueto
2. Carlos Fischer
3. Matt Belisle
4. Sean Watson
5. Travis Wood
6. Bobby Livingston
7. Phil Dumatrait
8. Elizardo Ramirez
9. Someother LHP because we will need one in the rotation.

Bullpen will be made up of the young guys there now, and best of the guys that don't make the rotation. I hope that someone in that group gets good in a hurry.

So looking at all of this, I feel that we have to get rid of Griffey and Dunn. Griffey so we can give Bruce some time next year. Dunn because if we keep him, our lead off will have to be a SS. I would rather have the opportunity of finding a lead off hitter over two positions (LF or SS). By limiting us to a SS lead off hitter, the chances of failing are quite large.

Lastly, Hamilton should not lead off. He is the perfect second batter and we will be successful if we can have each batter at their most desirable batting position.

Sounds good, although I don't trust the Reds minor league system. I can't think of another organization that has done as poor a job as the Reds in drafting/developing young talent. So, while I believe that the Reds should trade their veterans (Dunn, Griff, Hatteberg, etc.) and start playing the young guys, I have little to no faith in their ability to create major league talent. I did a little research and found that only 5 of the 37 players the Reds have used this season were actually drafted by Cincy (Dunn, Wise, Bailey, Coffey, and Salmon.) Only three of them get consistent work. Compare that with other teams in similar markets:

Minnesota: Morneau, Mauer, Hunter, Kubel, Cuddyer, and Pat Nesek, Juan Rincon, (2 All Star Apperances, 6 Gold Gloves, 1 MVP, etc.)

Oakland: Dan Johnson, Chavez, Crosby, Swisher, Blanton, Harden, Street, etc.

Cleveland: Martinez, Garko, Perahlta, Carmona, and Sabathia

All of those guys were drafted by their clubs and are major contributors to their squads. The Reds just haven't been able to follow that model. I don't know if it is poor drafting, poor coaching, bad luck, or a little of each, but it is frustrating. The Reds are always looking for the quick fix. Think about this, since they won the WS in '90, they have had nine managers (averaging about 300 games each), four different general managers, three different majority owners, twelve opening day starters (including Jimmy Haynes, Mike Remlinger, Pete Schourek, Joey Hamilton, etc.) I think the Reds need stability more than anything.

[AmarilloRed]

We do not need to blow up the team. The only positions that need to be addressed are catcher and possibly third base, depending on how Edwin develops in the second half. If we do not get a good trade for Adam, pick up his option and sign him to 13-14 million a year for 2-3 years. Griffey's contract ending and Bruce coming up will both occur at roughly the same time. The back end of our rotation needs to be addressed, and we need to totally restructure our bullpen.

[BLEEDS]

The solid lineup I see for 2009 is:
1B - Votto
2B - Phillips
SS - ???
3B - EE
LF - ???
CF - Hamilton
RF - Bruce
C - ???

Next the Rotation will look like:
1. Harang
2. Bailey
3. Arroyo
4. ???
5. ???

7. Phil Dumatrait

So looking at all of this, I feel that we have to get rid of Griffey and Dunn. Griffey so we can give Bruce some time next year. Dunn because if we keep him, our lead off will have to be a SS. .

That lineup is not only Awesome it is CHEAP!!!! Which is why you could afford to pay Dunn $14M per year (average) and still be fine.

Can you imagine the roster with:

Dunn - 40/100
Hamilton - 30/80
BP - 30+/80
EE - 20-25+

Votto - probably a 25 guy his first year, but proably 30-35+ Long-Term
Bruce - let's say 20
both these guys have .300 BA potential as well

WOW, you could play Juan Castro at SS and you'd have the deadliest Offense in the NL.

What you do with ALL THAT SAVED MONEY (until the young guys start becoming Arbitration Eligible) is spend 10-15M on a SP, and 5M on a Proven Closer.

You win a couple Pennants, maybe a World Series, and you have a full GABP, and you can afford a $100M Payroll.

AHHHh, we can Dream can't we?!?!

PEACE

-BLEEDS

[improbus]

We do not need to blow up the team. The only positions that need to be addressed are catcher and possibly third base, depending on how Edwin develops in the second half. If we do not get a good trade for Adam, pick up his option and sign him to 13-14 million a year for 2-3 years. Griffey's contract ending and Bruce coming up will both occur at roughly the same time. The back end of our rotation needs to be addressed, and we need to totally restructure our bullpen.

Here's the problem with that logic. Every team is looking for Bullpen help. What do the Reds have to offer to get it? Dunn and his almost rent-a-player contract, Griffey and his backloaded contract and fragile body, Arroyo who might have been a one hit wonder, who is there to deal? Also, in the offseason any halfway decent middle reliever is going to be overpaid by teams like the Cubs and Mets and the Reds can't compete financially with the two of them. Krivsky has already "restructured" the bullpen twice. They have used 32 guys in the bully already, which has included one fraudulent trade for injured goods, one retirement, at least two Tommy John surgeries. They have tried every way possible at getting bullpen help. Drafting a player and rushing him to the bigs (Wagner), trading for aging vets (Cormier & Schoeneweis), trading for up and comers (Majewski & Bray), bringing in guys from the minors (McBeth, Burton, Coutlangus, Salmon). The answer has to come from within, but here's the issue. All the guys I listed coming from the minors are 26 and older, meaning that they are more than likely career minor leaguers. They really aren't major league prospects. Everything begins and ends with the sad state of the Reds farm system, scouting department, and drafting history. That is where restructuring this team has to start.


One other side note that hurts the Reds and their trade prospects. Teams have wised up on trading young pitchers. After the Twins fleeced the Marlins, getting Santana for some guy named Jared Camp, and gutted the Giants in getting Joe Nathan, Boof Bonser, and Francisco Liriano for A.J. Pierzynski, teams have stopped trading young pitchers for midseason pickups. That's why teams are balking at trading for Dunn and Griff. Teams have simply gotten smarter.

[Chi-Town Red]

well said improbus

[larryboy]

How bad does the record have to be before you acknowledge the organization is not working as is and needs major changes?

[nate]

How bad does the record have to be before you acknowledge the organization is not working as is and needs major changes?

0 - 162.

[improbus]

How bad does the record have to be before you acknowledge the organization is not working as is and needs major changes?

That's exactly my point. You can almost look at it year by year and see how it fell apart. In '90, '95, and '99 the Reds won because home-grown talent was the core. And by home-grown, I don't necessarily mean drafted, but guys who first came up w/ Cincy.
1990: Larkin, O'Neill, Oliver, Sabo, Rijo, Dibs, Davis, etc.
1995: Larkin, Sanders, B. Boone, Morris, etc.
1999: Larkin, Casey, Graves, A. Boone, Reese, Tomko, Williamson
"Reds" baseball for 10 years meant average power w/ good speed (Reese, Larkin, Sanders, etc.) great Defense, (look at the '95 team, they were phenomenal defensively). Also, all three teams had dominant bullpens, (Nasty Boys, Brantley, Mike Jackson, Graves, Williamson, Sullivan) and average starters (except Rijo in '90.) Now what do they have. A horrifying bullpen, very spotty defense, home run hitters, and average speed at best. I'm not sure that the Reds know what "Reds" baseball is.

After '99, the team kept trying to add the "Greg Vaughn/Steve Parris" piece to put it all together. That's where Jimmy Haynes, Hatteberg, Aurilia, Benny Santiago, Todd Walker, Juan Encarnacion, Milton, Paul Wilson, and so many others come in. It just hasn't worked

To sum up, name all of the great players the Reds system has produced in the last ten years? Dunn is good, not great. Who do you look to next? Kearns, Lopez, Reese, Encarnacion? That's why there losing games. Teams like the Reds have to have strong farm systems. The financial constraints of baseball demand it. So, thanks alot Marge, and most especially thanks Jimmy Bowden for setting the organization back a decade.

[Degenerate39]

Regardless of what some people on this board think Jay Bruce will be on our 25 man roster out of SP next year.

What?

[Orenda]

bringing in guys from the minors (McBeth, Burton, Coutlangus, Salmon). The answer has to come from within, but here's the issue. All the guys I listed coming from the minors are 26 and older, meaning that they are more than likely career minor leaguers. They really aren't major league prospects. Everything begins and ends with the sad state of the Reds farm system, scouting department, and drafting history. That is where restructuring this team has to start.




In their defense McBeth and Coutlangus got late starts. Im not 100% sure these guys are answers either but I know there is going to be no way to find out with them in the minors. I think they all need to get a legitimate shot in the second half. Also, Eddie G. and Kirk Saarloos arent going to help out in the future, so why are they talking about bringing back eddie and giving Saarloos a bullpen spot.

[Vada Pinson Fan]

With Griffey there's no question he puts fans in the stands. Jr. forced the hand of Mariners management to deal him directly to the Reds at a discount in $$$ for the Reds. Therefore I think the Reds owe it to KGJ to ask him what he wants to do- Stay with the Reds (I hope so) , or be traded to a team that he would give his approval to (for being a 10 and 5 player). By trading Griffey the Reds are taking a huge gamble on different fronts. Trading Adam Dunn would be easier for the Reds to do but WK must maximize the return in either case. No trade such as Frank Robinson for Milt Pappas et al. Not saying Dunn is even close to being a Frank Robinson (he's not) but there are far worse things Krivsky could do by trading Dunn versus keeping him.

I see Hatteberg actually bringing the best return based solely on ease of trade, Scott has been HOTteberg lately which cranks up his value nicely and opens the door for Votto to come to Cincinnati. Other GM's (IMO) aren't going to "pony up" when it comes to Griffey or Dunn with the possible exception being Seattle wanting Junior back pretty clearly... and sooner rather than later if Jr. approves.

So the question is "Should the Reds keep Dunn and Griffey?" Absolutely, if the return isn't there for the Reds. At a minimum I'd like the Reds to receive a #2 Major League Pitcher(or a healthy fireballing reliever capable of throwing it above 95+mph), #2 or 3 rated prospect from AAA and a Single A or AA prospect. Too much too ask for? Not enough? Should be a seller's market, so I think it's just about right. I'm sure opposing GM's wouldn't think so but if Dunn or Griffey would put them in the post season- what's to argue about, other than Dunn's shortcomings? :dunno:
I hope for close races and that should be enough to get some GM to pull the trigger.

[improbus]

In their defense McBeth and Coutlangus got late starts. Im not 100% sure these guys are answers either but I know there is going to be no way to find out with them in the minors. I think they all need to get a legitimate shot in the second half. Also, Eddie G. and Kirk Saarloos arent going to help out in the future, so why are they talking about bringing back eddie and giving Saarloos a bullpen spot.

I'm not saying they'll be bad pitchers. I like Coutlangus and am alot more confident with him on the mound than most of the other guys coming out of the pen, for whatever that is worth. But, I don't see a Zumaya, Putz, etc... in the bunch. They all have a chance to be big league pitchers, but they'll never blow people away.

They are giving Guardado and Saarloos chances because they are the Reds and they love old guys coming off injury/control problems. (See: Paul Wilson, Harnisch, Rijo, Guzman, etc...)

[BucSappy]

No, this would be a huge mistake.

We need to trade one or the other. Preferrably Dunn because Griffey sells tickets and he is a team player.

[improbus]

We need to trade one or the other. Preferrably Dunn because Griffey sells tickets and he is a team player.

He doesn't sell that many tickets, the Reds are 13th in the NL in attendence.

[Degenerate39]

He doesn't sell that many tickets, the Reds are 13th in the NL in attendence.

Oh he will when he's around 596 homers or so

[Orenda]

I'm not saying they'll be bad pitchers. I like Coutlangus and am alot more confident with him on the mound than most of the other guys coming out of the pen, for whatever that is worth. But, I don't see a Zumaya, Putz, etc... in the bunch. They all have a chance to be big league pitchers, but they'll never blow people away.

They are giving Guardado and Saarloos chances because they are the Reds and they love old guys coming off injury/control problems. (See: Paul Wilson, Harnisch, Rijo, Guzman, etc...)

Ur right none of these guys seem to have back-end potential, but they do have the potential to be cheap suitable middle relievers, allowing the reds to spend in other areas.

[AmarilloRed]

Here's the problem with that logic. Every team is looking for Bullpen help. What do the Reds have to offer to get it? Dunn and his almost rent-a-player contract, Griffey and his backloaded contract and fragile body, Arroyo who might have been a one hit wonder, who is there to deal? Also, in the offseason any halfway decent middle reliever is going to be overpaid by teams like the Cubs and Mets and the Reds can't compete financially with the two of them. Krivsky has already "restructured" the bullpen twice. They have used 32 guys in the bully already, which has included one fraudulent trade for injured goods, one retirement, at least two Tommy John surgeries. They have tried every way possible at getting bullpen help. Drafting a player and rushing him to the bigs (Wagner), trading for aging vets (Cormier & Schoeneweis), trading for up and comers (Majewski & Bray), bringing in guys from the minors (McBeth, Burton, Coutlangus, Salmon). The answer has to come from within, but here's the issue. All the guys I listed coming from the minors are 26 and older, meaning that they are more than likely career minor leaguers. They really aren't major league prospects. Everything begins and ends with the sad state of the Reds farm system, scouting department, and drafting history. That is where restructuring this team has to start.


One other side note that hurts the Reds and their trade prospects. Teams have wised up on trading young pitchers. After the Twins fleeced the Marlins, getting Santana for some guy named Jared Camp, and gutted the Giants in getting Joe Nathan, Boof Bonser, and Francisco Liriano for A.J. Pierzynski, teams have stopped trading young pitchers for midseason pickups. That's why teams are balking at trading for Dunn and Griff. Teams have simply gotten smarter.

The Reds farm system has been bad over a long period of time. You are not going to wave a magic wand and make things better overnight. I am not saying the bullpen will totally change next year, or even the next couple of years. The players you named may never be minor league relievers, or they could be part of the answer next year. We will be playing all of these players this year, and determining whether or not they will be part of the team. Bronson Arroyo will be a good starting pitcher for this team this year and beyond. The problem the Reds have had in the past is instability. You do a fire
sale, and I can guarantee you more losing, more bad management, and more instability. As for Griffey, he will only be on the Reds another year or two until he is replaced by Bruce, who might be even better. Adam Dunn has been rumored to be traded, but I think his option will be picked up and signed to a short-term deal by Krivsky unless a team gives him an outstanding offer. Krivsky has done a good job with the draft(except for Stubbs), although I wish he would learn not to trade prospects for old relievers. Our minor league system is below-average, but it is improving, and a foundation is being laid for the future.

[improbus]

The Reds farm system has been bad over a long period of time. You are not going to wave a magic wand and make things better overnight. I am not saying the bullpen will totally change next year, or even the next couple of years. The players you named may never be minor league relievers, or they could be part of the answer next year. We will be playing all of these players this year, and determining whether or not they will be part of the team. Bronson Arroyo will be a good starting pitcher for this team this year and beyond. The problem the Reds have had in the past is instability. You do a fire
sale, and I can guarantee you more losing, more bad management, and more instability. As for Griffey, he will only be on the Reds another year or two until he is replaced by Bruce, who might be even better. Adam Dunn has been rumored to be traded, but I think his option will be picked up and signed to a short-term deal by Krivsky unless a team gives him an outstanding offer. Krivsky has done a good job with the draft(except for Stubbs), although I wish he would learn not to trade prospects for old relievers. Our minor league system is below-average, but it is improving, and a foundation is being laid for the future.

I'm not trying to pick on you Amarillo, but that's the same sentiment I've been hearing from Reds fans for years. We want to have our cake and eat it too. We are simply unwilling to take the chance that needs to be taken in order to win. In an earlier post, I mentioned the success of the A's and Twins, teams with similar budgets. How did they set up their run? Like the Reds, they had a successful late '80's and early '90's run. However, when that run was over, they completely cleaned house and went through prolonged stretches of losing. They traded all of their aging, overpaid assets, stockpiled draft picks, and went into a run where they were terrible. From '93-'99 the Twins had a .431 winning percentage, from '93-'98 the A's had a .446 winning percentage. Both franchises were willing to be bad for a while. Cincinnati, both its fans and its ownership, has always had the attitude that they are one or two players away. So, they have signed veterans, has beens, and shots in the dark trying to catch lightning in a bottle like in '99,. But, even if they have a winning season or two, they will never be able to sustain it. Meanwhile, the Twins have won four division titles, and Oakland has won four division titles and a Wild Card birth.

Now, I understand why Reds fans hesitate to take the chance and gut the organization. First, they have a terrible track record with developing players. Second, they don't want to become the Pirates, always rebuilding, always selling, etc... But, I do believe that the city on Cincinnati wants a winner much more than Pittsburgh, and that the ownership is committed to winning more than Pirates ownership.

In the end, all I'm saying is that Reds fans need to understand the price that has to be paid to win in a small market. I'm willing, are the rest of us?

[AmarilloRed]

The problem is that I have seen it more than once. It seems like every 5 years we decide to trade all our good, effective players for marginal prospects, and we end up worse than before the fire sale. I have been a fan since The Big Red Machine days, and every time we had a losing year we would do this.Krivsky has been negotiating hard in potential trades this year. I hear 3/4 of the roster is available to trades,and I have faith Krivsky will get the best return in any trades he makes. We have greatly underperformed this year, and so fans are pressing the panic button.As far as Minnesota and Oakland, they started out their success by building a successful farm system. They could afford to trade their veterans because they had quality replacements in their farm system. It all starts in the minors. We have had a terrible farm system for years, and have paid the price. Krvisky is now beginning the process to improve our farm system to equal to Minnesota, and I think he will do it. I think we should trade our veteran players, if we can get a maximized return in prospects. I respect your opinion, but we need to be very careful this trade deadline about who we trade, and the return we get.

[JLB5]

I can't think of one "fire sale" trade the Reds have made that I wouldn't do again. I can't think of any "good, effective" players that the Reds dumped that have went on to make substantial long term contributions to other teams. Maybe I'm forgetting someone, but Aaron Boone and Scott Williamson haven't exactly panned out and I'll take Harang for Jose Guillen every day of the week and twice on Sunday. Sure, most of the return the Reds got for those guys didn't pan out either, but that's not what has killed this organization. Failing to develop any prospects from Bowden's last 5 drafts put this team behind the 8 ball.

[improbus]

I agree that Krivsky is trying to rebuild the farm system, and that it will take some time. What worries me is the following scenario. The Reds get a top 5 pick this upcoming offseason (almost a lock at this point,) but the player the Reds want/should take wants a signing bonus larger than the Reds are willing to pay. So, they end up drafting someone they can sign, not the player they want. When Oakland drafted Zito, Chavez, and Mulder with their 1st Round pick, they didn't have to worry about the huge signing bonuses. The Reds will, and knowing the Reds, they won't be willing or able to pay what is necessary (thanks alot J.D.Drew and Scott Boras.) To me, the draft is a top 5 problem in baseball . They need to have a slotting salary structure like the NFL, and they have to find a way to get the foreign players into the draft, like the NBA. Right now the draft is a complete joke, and until it is changed teams like the Reds are going to be stuck while the rich get richer. Here's hoping Krivsky can navigate the waters well.

[Doro]

If the Reds spent 10million on a right handed power bat I would go insane. That 10million should be spent on a bullpen and EE needs to start hitting the ball.

[AmarilloRed]

We seem to have gotten a little off subject. The question was whether we should keep Dunn and Griffey, not have a fire sale. Both of them will have their contracts end shortly. Griffey has one more year, plus an option year(I believe). I can wait for him to retire and have Jay Bruce take his place in right, as Bruce is a natural right fielder.Adam Dunn is a bit more complicated. It becomes problematic to trade him after the trading deadline, so we should trade him if we can get a good return for him. Right now teams are unwilling or unable to give a good return for Adam Dunn, but that may change as the trading deadline approaches. It will not be impossible to trade him after the deadline, but Adam will have all the power on where he is traded. If we cannot get an equitable trade, I say pick up his option and see if we can negotiate a 2-3 year deal at 13-14 million. If we could get an outfielder from the minors after that time who could hit.280 with 30 hrs and 80 rbis , I would have to be tolerant of that.

[Cigar2]

A simple answer for in my head cold (even in the non head cold state) mind as it is right now.
Is YES and Yes....Cause in this market has is right now we will not be getting the A1 number one stuff that people think we will getting in trading Adam and Jr.
All te Reds would getting would in the league of magic beans and spare parts.
So lets get rid of the spare parts we have like Hatty, Conine, Stanton, Stormy, and Lohse.
The ways improving this ballclub.

[Ludwig Reds Fan]

I wouldn't trade Dunn or Griffey away for a handful of magic beans, and thats all we are being offered.

So...keep them, and use Milton, etc's salary room to buy some pitching. I wouldn't even deal Hatte. Platoon him with Votto or whatever. He's hitting .300.

The Reds don't have the pieces in AAA to have the luxury of dealing away their good players.

Keep the good ones, release the bad ones, use the extra money to sign a few pitchers, and continue to develop the farm. Thats about all they can do, IMO.

[AmarilloRed]

I wouldn't trade Dunn or Griffey away for a handful of magic beans, and thats all we are being offered.

So...keep them, and use Milton, etc's salary room to buy some pitching. I wouldn't even deal Hatte. Platoon him with Votto or whatever. He's hitting .300.

The Reds don't have the pieces in AAA to have the luxury of dealing away their good players.

Keep the good ones, release the bad ones, use the extra money to sign a few pitchers, and continue to develop the farm. Thats about all they can do, IMO.

I agree wirh this sentiment. The other teams are lowballing us, so I would keep the two of them. Let Griffey play out his contract, and see if we can sign Dunn to a short extension after we pick up his option. It would be one thing if we were offered good prospects, but right now we are being offered garbage. This may change as the deadline approaches, but this is how I see it now.:thumbdown

[redsfanmia]

Lets keep everyone and run the same team out there next year and see if we can finish with the worst record in the league. Lets keep Dunn, Lohse, Griffey, Weathers and the bunch and try to make a run next year. The way the Reds have been doing it hasnt been working so lets keep doing the same thing with the same players.:thumbup:

[jimbo]

Lets keep everyone and run the same team out there next year and see if we can finish with the worst record in the league. Lets keep Dunn, Lohse, Griffey, Weathers and the bunch and try to make a run next year. The way the Reds have been doing it hasnt been working so lets keep doing the same thing with the same players.:thumbup:

I note the sarcasm, and I couldn't agree more. With as much losing as fans have put up with from the Reds this decade, it just amazes me how so many of them seem to be content with the status quo.

[redsfanmia]

I note the sarcasm, and I couldn't agree more. With as much losing as fans have put up with from the Reds this decade, it just amazes me how so many of them seem to be content with the status quo.

At some point you just have to tear it down and go in another direction. Why do people think the Reds can keep the "core" together and contend? The "core" needs to be changed, the team needs a new personality.

[rotnoid]

So...keep them, and use Milton, etc's salary room to buy some pitching. I wouldn't even deal Hatte. Platoon him with Votto or whatever. He's hitting .300.

The problem is that they're both left handed. That's not usually a good recipe for a platoon.

[nate]

At some point you just have to tear it down and go in another direction. Why do people think the Reds can keep the "core" together and contend? The "core" needs to be changed, the team needs a new personality.

So what moves do you make to change the "core"?

[redsfanmia]

So what moves do you make to change the "core"?

I would only consider Bailey untouchable, everyone else on the roster is fair game. I look for guys who make contact and who are fast and can play defense. In trades for pitchers I am only interested in guys who can throw 94+ mph. I would completely tear it down ala the Marlins then tell the fanbase that an actual plan for the future is in place and to come watch the team grow and learn. The money I save in salary next year I put into the farm system and expand the scouting in the far east and in Latin America. Get back to what made the Reds a great franchise throught the sixties, seventies and late eighties and early ninties.

[nate]

I would only consider Bailey untouchable, everyone else on the roster is fair game. I look for guys who make contact and who are fast and can play defense. In trades for pitchers I am only interested in guys who can throw 94+ mph. I would completely tear it down ala the Marlins then tell the fanbase that an actual plan for the future is in place and to come watch the team grow and learn. The money I save in salary next year I put into the farm system and expand the scouting in the far east and in Latin America. Get back to what made the Reds a great franchise throught the sixties, seventies and late eighties and early ninties.

OK, so who are some of the players you think we should get and how do we get them?

[BLEEDS]

Lets keep everyone and run the same team out there next year and see if we can finish with the worst record in the league. Lets keep Dunn, Lohse, Griffey, Weathers and the bunch and try to make a run next year. The way the Reds have been doing it hasnt been working so lets keep doing the same thing with the same players.:thumbup:

Okay, then let's get rid of the top two HR hitters in the National League not named Prince Fielder, our ONLY reliable Bullpen Arm, and a Hot/Cold #3 SP who makes only $4.5M...

and replace them with WHAT?!??!?!

Norris Hopper in for Dunn, Promote Jay Bruce from AA to the Big Leagues? Add another rookie to blow 8th inning leads for Weathers?

We need a new IDENTITY?!?! What would that be? WE play in GABP, you want scrappy base-stealers and bunters?!?!?

We need PITCHING that's a given, but we aren't going to win games - EVER - by trading Power Outfielders for nothing in return.

Griffey should play out his contract and/or until we get a good enough Combination of GOOD VALUE in return for a trade and a PROVEN AAAA Jay Bruce with the same AVG and OBP as he's had at and below AA.

Dunn, IMO, should be signed long-term. You can't replace that kind of power for less $$. Travis Haffner money at a minimum it appears - and Haffner looks to have taken less money to stay in Cleveland.

The prospectus of having a 40/100/100, .900 OPS-ing OF-er in GABP for the next 8-10 years at $15M per year is NOT a bad thing, even if the guy is NOT a gold-glover and Strikes Out a lot and only hits about .260...

PEACE

-BLEEDS

[redsfanmia]

OK, so who are some of the players you think we should get and how do we get them?

I am not a scout and only listed general types of players not individual players.

[redsfanmia]

Okay, then let's get rid of the top two HR hitters in the National League not named Prince Fielder, our ONLY reliable Bullpen Arm, and a Hot/Cold #3 SP who makes only $4.5M...

and replace them with WHAT?!??!?!

Norris Hopper in for Dunn, Promote Jay Bruce from AA to the Big Leagues? Add another rookie to blow 8th inning leads for Weathers?

We need a new IDENTITY?!?! What would that be? WE play in GABP, you want scrappy base-stealers and bunters?!?!?

We need PITCHING that's a given, but we aren't going to win games - EVER - by trading Power Outfielders for nothing in return.

Griffey should play out his contract and/or until we get a good enough Combination of GOOD VALUE in return for a trade and a PROVEN AAAA Jay Bruce with the same AVG and OBP as he's had at and below AA.

Dunn, IMO, should be signed long-term. You can't replace that kind of power for less $$. Travis Haffner money at a minimum it appears - and Haffner looks to have taken less money to stay in Cleveland.

The prospectus of having a 40/100/100, .900 OPS-ing OF-er in GABP for the next 8-10 years at $15M per year is NOT a bad thing, even if the guy is NOT a gold-glover and Strikes Out a lot and only hits about .260...

PEACE

-BLEEDS

Are the Reds going to come back and win the division? If not then what matters who replace them with? Replace them with the players you acquire from the trades you are going to make.

[TC81190]

If they don't get a Saltalamacchia or Joba Chamberlain caliber, then yes.

[AmarilloRed]

Adam Dunn and Ken Griffey Jr. are not the problem. I am very willing to pay them market value because they have earned it on this team. What are the odds we have a 40hr 100rbi prospect coming up from the minors?The problem is all the garbage position players and relievers we have on the roster that are signed for more than they are worth. I am perfectly willing to keep Griffey on the roster until Bruce is ready, and to have Adam signed to a multi-year contract for 13-14 million a year. It is still possible Adam will be traded because of the way his contract is structured, but the offers will need to get a lot better

[Orenda]

I might have missed it, but how do we know how Dunn's contract is structured? Have the reds reported it? Because it would seem the only ones who should know would be Dunn, his agent, and the Reds. Once again I might have missed it, and if so is there a link?

[jimbo]

I would only consider Bailey untouchable, everyone else on the roster is fair game. I look for guys who make contact and who are fast and can play defense. In trades for pitchers I am only interested in guys who can throw 94+ mph. I would completely tear it down ala the Marlins then tell the fanbase that an actual plan for the future is in place and to come watch the team grow and learn. The money I save in salary next year I put into the farm system and expand the scouting in the far east and in Latin America. Get back to what made the Reds a great franchise throught the sixties, seventies and late eighties and early ninties.

:clap:

Excellent post. I love Dunn and Griffey (Junior is my favorite player) but they have been the core of this team for several years now and the team has done nothing but lose. It's time to blow it up and build a new foundation.

All I will add to your comments is that I would also look for professional hitters who know how to work a count and move runners over.

[AmarilloRed]

I might have missed it, but how do we know how Dunn's contract is structured? Have the reds reported it? Because it would seem the only ones who should know would be Dunn, his agent, and the Reds. Once again I might have missed it, and if so is there a link?

I could be wrong about this, because I have only heard about it. I believe we can trade him to anyone up to this year's trading deadline. After the deadline he has a no-trade clause until the year is up. Next year he can be traded, but only to 10 teams of his choosing. Again, I could be wrong about this, but this is how I have heard his contract is structured.

[Carolina Red]

Keep Griffey, trade Dunn if the return is good. Even at his age Griffey is still the best player on this team.