7/14/07 Reds Vs. Mets

[pedro]

Cincinnati
AB R H RBI BB K LOB Season Avg
R. Freel 3b 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 .252
N. Hopper cf 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 .275
Griffey Jr. rf 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 .282
B. Phillips 2b 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 .280
A. Dunn lf 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 .258
J. Conine 1b 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 .268
A. Gonzalez ss 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 .251
J. Valentin c 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 .244
M. Belisle p 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 .120
Totals 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
NY Mets
AB R H RBI BB K LOB Season Avg
J. Reyes ss 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 .307
R. Gotay 2b 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 .346
C. Beltran cf 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 .260
D. Wright 3b 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 .293
C. Delgado 1b 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 .246
P. Lo Duca c 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 .267
S. Green rf 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 .275
L. Milledge lf 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 .182
T. Glavine p 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 .290
Totals 0 0 0 0 0 0 0


Edwin's not playing again. Either they are showcasing Freel at 3rd for somebody or Edwin's on his way out of town IMO.

also, Pedro Lopez is filling in for AGon, who's on the bereavement list again.

[Matt700wlw]

The not playing Eddie things is beginning to disturb me.

[pedro]

The not playing Eddie things is beginning to disturb me.

He has had a pretty bad month but I think there's something in the works involving either he, or more likely IMO, Freel.

[Matt700wlw]

He has had a pretty bad month but I think there's something in the works involving either he, or more likely IMO, Freel.

It is that time of year...

[Marc D]

I can't express how much I hope its Freel and not EE.

[VR]

I'm predicting JV gets pulled after 3 1/3 innings and 6 stolen bases.

[Tom Servo]

Edwin not playing is eerily reminisant of FeLo's random benchings from last year.


but hey we do get to see PeLo!

[pedro]

I agree but I do think Freel has more short term value to a contender than EE does. There are a lot of teams that could use a guy off their bench that can play 5 positions and lead off.

[oneupper]

Don't quite see why Valentin gets the start against the lefty.
Is he Belisle's personal catcher now?

[Matt700wlw]

Don't quite see why Valentin gets the start against the lefty.
Is he Belisle's personal catcher now?

He's the "untapped resource"

[TeamBoone]

Pedro Lopez is filling in for AGon, who's on the bereavement list again.

Remember a while ago his son was very, very ill... I hope he hasn't taken another turn for the worse because I remember them saying he was better, but not well.

[vaticanplum]

Do we know how old baby Gonzo is? Just curious.

[pedro]

Do we know how old baby Gonzo is? Just curious.

They describe him as an "infant" so I'm guessing less than 2.

Hope the little guy is ok, that's got to be extremely tough on the family.

[Eric_Davis]

Cincinnati
AB R H RBI BB K LOB Season Avg
R. Freel 3b 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 .252
N. Hopper cf 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 .275
Griffey Jr. rf 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 .282
B. Phillips 2b 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 .280
A. Dunn lf 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 .258
J. Conine 1b 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 .268
A. Gonzalez ss 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 .251
J. Valentin c 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 .244
M. Belisle p 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 .120
Totals 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
NY Mets
AB R H RBI BB K LOB Season Avg
J. Reyes ss 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 .307
R. Gotay 2b 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 .346
C. Beltran cf 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 .260
D. Wright 3b 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 .293
C. Delgado 1b 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 .246
P. Lo Duca c 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 .267
S. Green rf 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 .275
L. Milledge lf 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 .182
T. Glavine p 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 .290
Totals 0 0 0 0 0 0 0


Edwin's not playing again. Either they are showcasing Freel at 3rd for somebody or Edwin's on his way out of town IMO.

also, Pedro Lopez is filling in for AGon, who's on the bereavement list again.

This just really sucks! Why even play the game? Valentin sucks as a catcher and especially every time he works with Belisle. Belisle hates working with Valentin and Mackanin knows this, yet he sabotages Belisle's start.

Edwin is the most promising position player the REDS have, and they treat him like doggie-poo.

I really feel bad for Belisle. I hope he shakes Valentin off of as many pitches as necessary in order to get the job done, and that he overcomes the defensive holes at 3rd base and SS, even though he's a groundball pitcher.

What in God's name is Mackanin thinking?

[Falls City Beer]

I don't think Belisle's ineffectiveness has much of anything to do with Valentin. Valentin's a crappy defender (who isn't on the Reds?), but I like his stick in there against Glavine versus Ross's.

I like the move.

[pedro]

This just really sucks! Why even play the game? Valentin sucks as a catcher and especially every time he works with Belisle. Belisle hates working with Valentin and Mackanin knows this, yet he sabotages Belisle's start.

Edwin is the most promising position player the REDS have, and they treat him like doggie-poo.

I really feel bad for Belisle. I hope he shakes Valentin off of as many pitches as necessary in order to get the job done, and that he overcomes the defensive holes at 3rd base and SS, even though he's a groundball pitcher.

What in God's name is Mackanin thinking?

That's a little extreme. There are all kinds of reasons why EE might not be playing that don't revolve around the Reds mistreating him. Never has a player been given so much slack on this board as EE gets. I like him and all but the sky is not going to fall in if he doesn't play every single game.

[Eric_Davis]

A list of Belisle's starts under different catchers (IBB not listed):

DAVID ROSS

4/06/07....W, 6IP, 4H, 1ER, 1BB, 6K, 1.50ERA
4/11/07....W, 6IP, 3H, 1ER, 1BB, 3K, 1.50ERA
4/28/07....W, 9IP, 5H, 1ER, 0BB, 5K, 1.00ERA
5/04/07...ND, 6IP, 9H, 5ER, 2BB, 5K, 7.50ERA
5/09/07......L, 7IP, 6H, 0ER, 0BB, 7K, 0.00ERA
5/19/07..W, 5.2IP, 10H, 4ER, 2BB, 1K, 6.35ERA
5/24/07......L, 7IP, 10H, 4ER, 1BB, 3K, 5.14ERA
6/15/07......L, 5IP, 9H, 7ER, 1BB, 5K, 12.60ERA
6/20/07...ND, 6IP, 4H, 1ER, 4BB, 1K, 1.50ERA

CHAD MOELLER

5/29/07...W, 7.2IP, 4H, 1ER, 0BB, 8K, 1.17ERA
6/03/07.ND, 6.2IP, 10H, 5ER, 1BB, 2K, 6.75ERA
6/09/07....ND, 6IP, 5H, 3ER, 3BB, 5K, 4.50ERA
6/28/07....ND, 5IP, 8H, 6ER, 1BB, 6K, 10.80ERA, WP, HBP

JAVIER VALENTIN

4/07/07.ND, 5.1IP, 8H, 5ER, 1BB, 2K, 8.44ERA, WP
4/22/07......L, 5IP, 8H, 4ER, 0BB, 6K, 7.20ERA
5/14/07.....L, 5IP, 10H, 7ER, 1BB, 2K, 12.60ERA, WP, HBP
7/04/07.....L, 4IP, 6H, 5ER, 0BB, 0K, 11.25ERA

Who would you have catching Belisle?

[Eric_Davis]

I don't think Belisle's ineffectiveness has much of anything to do with Valentin. Valentin's a crappy defender (who isn't on the Reds?), but I like his stick in there against Glavine versus Ross's.

I like the move.

It has everything to do with it.

[pedro]

If it was realistic for a catcher to play 162 games then I'd have Ross in there every night. That isn't realistic though.

[oneupper]

The Gonzalez baby had an operation in January (performed in the US, I believe). Alex took "bereavement" from the Caracas Leones (Venezuelan Winter League) at that time also.

He had a traqueotomy IIRC. The child has lung problems, I believe.

[Falls City Beer]

It has everything to do with it.

How do you know? And, no, you can't point to a small sample size of five games and prove anything.

[Eric_Davis]

That's a little extreme. There are all kinds of reasons why EE might not be playing that don't revolve around the Reds mistreating him. Never has a player been given so much slack on this board as EE gets. I like him and all but the sky is not going to fall in if he doesn't play every single game.

Freel single-handedly loses the game on Thursday and he gets rewarded by starting at 3rd Base the next two days. Now, that makes a lot of sense.

[Falls City Beer]

I think Belisle could have Jesus Christ behind the dish tonight, and he'd still get pummeled.

The Reds' need the offense--and they ain't gonna get it from Ross against Glavine.

[Eric_Davis]

How do you know? And, no, you can't point to a small sample size of five games and prove anything.

That's a large sample size. Why ignore the obvious.

Read this:

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=60083

[Falls City Beer]

Why ignore the obvious.




Why beg the question?

[Falls City Beer]

I think Tommy G picks up stubborn win #298 tonight. I'll call a Mets' rout.

[pedro]

Freel single-handedly loses the game on Thursday and he gets rewarded by starting at 3rd Base the next two days. Now, that makes a lot of sense.

How'd he single handedly lose the game?

Phillips is the one who got picked off in the 9th.

[pedro]

I think Tommy G picks up stubborn win #298 tonight. I'll call a Mets' rout.

I say Tommy gives up a 3 spot in the first.

Reds win 7-5

[Eric_Davis]

I think Belisle could have Jesus Christ behind the dish tonight, and he'd still get pummeled.

The Reds' need the offense--and they ain't gonna get it from Ross against Glavine.

Again, ignoring the obvious. If he had Ross behind the plate, it's likely that he'll pitch very well.

Who a pitcher has as a catcher is as important as anything there is in all of baseball.

That's why Moyer would only let Wilson catch for him, and Maddux and Carlton and numerous other great pitchers would only let certain catchers work with them. And if it's that important for Hall-of-Fame pitchers to work with the right catcher, then it's even more significant for pitchers of lesser talent.

As Putz said a couple of nights ago as he saved his 25th consecutive game while allowing an ERA of less than 0.40 in those appearances, "Well, I haven't exactly been perfect. I've had great defense behind me and the catchers have called great games. We've been on the same page most of the time and that's extremely important."

Who catches games is everything.

[Eric_Davis]

How'd he single handedly lose the game?

Phillips is the one who got picked off in the 9th.

Well, that was Keith Hernandez' opinion and most of those who were on the game thread Thursday, and mine, too.

[pedro]

Well, that was Keith Hernandez' opinion and most of those who were on the game thread Thursday, and mine, too.

Keith spent last night proclaiming Phillips thursday nights goat. I didn't watch the game thursday, what'd Freel do?

[TeamBoone]

This just really sucks! Why even play the game? Valentin sucks as a catcher and especially every time he works with Belisle. Belisle hates working with Valentin and Mackanin knows this, yet he sabotages Belisle's start.

Wow! Where did you read this? I've never heard word one about it.

[Matt700wlw]

Wow! Where did you read this? I've never heard word one about it.

News to me as well...

[pedro]

Wow! Where did you read this? I've never heard word one about it.

I think it's pure speculation based on results. If so, it's completely wrong IMO to characterize it as such. If not, I too would like some back up to that comment.

[Kc61]

Anyone who blames Matt Belisle's 5.28 ERA on the catcher, well, let's just say I disagree. Strongly. His numbers show that once he went around the league once, his effectiveness, let's say, eroded. He now has had a long rest, maybe he'll be revitalized.

Anyway, I hope no Reds pitcher is too tied to Ross, because if he keeps hitting .189 nobody will be pitching to him.

My issue is using Valentin against Glavine. That doesn't make much sense to me because of the lefty-righty thing.

As for EE, my hunch is that the manager liked the Freel/Hopper leadoff combo last night and wanted to go with it again. Perhaps he wants to use Freel more to get him back in playing shape. And Hopper deserves a few starts here and there.

Hope Belisle does well tonight.

Found it ironic that EE was used for defense last night. How things do change in this game.

[Eric_Davis]

Wow! Where did you read this? I've never heard word one about it.

You can see it. It's so obvious. Watch Belisle work with Valentin tonight. I don't know how you missed it last time on July 4th. They couldn't get together on two batters in a row.

Narron knew it and never let Belisle work with Valentin again after the 3rd time they worked together.

[Eric_Davis]

Keith spent last night proclaiming Phillips thursday nights goat. I didn't watch the game thursday, what'd Freel do?

Go to Thursday's game thread and it's all pointed out there. Go with other's opinions, not mine.

[Matt700wlw]

JB says the best way to beat Glavine is to stack the lineup with lefties because it takes his breaking ball away.

If this is indeed correct, which I have no reason to not buy into what JB is saying....nobody ever does it.

[BCubb2003]

Mets have the same lineup for the third straight game. There should be an investigation.

[Falls City Beer]

Glavine's still frustrating for righties.

[Falls City Beer]

JB says the best way to beat Glavine is to stack the lineup with lefties because it takes his breaking ball away.

If this is indeed correct, which I have no reason to not buy into what JB is saying....nobody ever does it.

The stats bear out what JB's saying. Stack your lefties.

[Matt700wlw]

The stats bear out what JB's saying. Stack your lefties.

Manager's never do it for some reason

[Eric_Davis]

Anyway, I hope no Reds pitcher is too tied to Ross, because if he keeps hitting .189 nobody will be pitching to him.

My issue is using Valentin against Glavine. That doesn't make much sense to me because of the lefty-righty thing.



A catcher's offense is unimportant to the outcome of a game.

A catcher's effectiveness at calling pitches and location is 10 times more important than his bat. And Valentin's ability to call pitches and location is as bad as it gets. It's so bad that they have to carry a 3rd Catcher in Moeller, who is also bad at it as this will probably be the last year that Moeller catches a Major League game, and I can't see Valentin catching for more than a year himself.

[VR]

Well, at least they made him throw ten pitches in the first. Wearing him down already. No way he goes more than 12 tonight.

[pedro]

Go to Thursday's game thread and it's all pointed out there. Go with other's opinions, not mine.

never mind. I just wanted an answer w/out the run around of having to go read through some old game thread.

[VR]

Cue circus music.

[Matt700wlw]

Belisle, pitching like this, is going to get him rocked...

[Eric_Davis]

Belisle is an average pitcher that with the right Catcher behind the plate can get good results out of Belisle.

Ross has proven time and again that he can get Belisle to give up one run or less in a start, where Valentin continually calls the wrong pitches and locations to the tune of giving up a run per inning instead of a run per start like Ross.

Belisle isn't good enough to compensate for poor pitch calling and location, but he's good enough to pitch a good game with the right Catcher.

Don't underplay's ability as a catcher. He can call a good game, and he's great at throwing out runners. That's something that helps a player like Belisle, who gives up a single an inning as a groundball pitcher. Ross keeps those singles out of scoring position with his arm.

[Matt700wlw]

Wow...Belisle got Wright!

[VR]

JB
"Belisle has great command of his pitches, and throws strikes. He just can't do it when he needs to"

Isn't that the definition of poor command? :confused::thumbup:

[pedro]

Wow...Belisle got Wright!

wright swang at a pitch 2 feet outside.

[Kc61]

A catcher's offense is unimportant to the outcome of a game.
.

Tell that to Johnny Bench, Yogi Berra, Pudge Rodriguez, Roy Campanella, and Carlton Fisk.

As long as the Reds are satisfied with .189 hitters in the lineup and 5.28 ERAs in the rotation, they will lose.

[Eric_Davis]

never mind. I just wanted an answer w/out the run around of having to go read through some old game thread.

In Freel's effort to inflate his ego and act like Superman on every play he turned a routine single that would have had runners on 1st and 2nd with 2 outs into a ball that went all the way to the wall. The Runner scored from 1st and gave the Mets the winning margin. He also made another bonehead defensive play in Center.

[MrCinatit]

Keith spent last night proclaiming Phillips thursday nights goat. I didn't watch the game thursday, what'd Freel do?

With a man on first and two outs, a Mets batter hit a clean single to center - anyone could see it was a clean single, and should have been played on the bounce.
Freel made a dive for it, it bounced far enough behind him for the runner on first to score the Mets' third - and winning - run of the game.

[KronoRed]

In Freel's effort to inflate his ego and act like Superman on every play he turned a routine single that would have had runners on 1st and 2nd with 2 outs into a ball that went all the way to the wall. The Runner scored from 1st and gave the Mets the winning margin. He also made another bonehead defensive play in Center.

Freel brings only one thing to defense, speed..his instincts are awful, and at 3rd? OY!

[Eric_Davis]

Anyone who blames Matt Belisle's 5.28 ERA on the catcher, well, let's just say I disagree. Strongly. His numbers show that once he went around the league once, his effectiveness, let's say, eroded. He now has had a long rest, maybe he'll be revitalized.

Anyway, I hope no Reds pitcher is too tied to Ross, because if he keeps hitting .189 nobody will be pitching to him.



Read this and you'll see that Belisle should only work with Ross:


http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=60083

[Tom Servo]

I love BP.

[Matt700wlw]

Man...he is something else.

:phillips:

:jump:

[MrCinatit]

Sheesh. I leave for just a second and Brandon makes me pay for it.

[pedro]

Phillips does the sideways cat walk thing as he runs around the bases. What's that all about?

[Tom Servo]

Phillips does the sideways cat walk thing as he runs around the bases. What's that all about?
I'd like to know that too. The first time I noticed it I was afraid he was hurt.

[pedro]

Keith Hernandez really isn't that bad an announcer.

[BCubb2003]

Phillips does the sideways cat walk thing as he runs around the bases. What's that all about?

He should slow way down when he goes by Rickey Henderson, who seems to have invented that kind of thing.

[Falls City Beer]

Phillips does the sideways cat walk thing as he runs around the bases. What's that all about?

Maybe he's imitating his favorite crab-walking cat.

[Falls City Beer]

Keith Hernandez really isn't that bad an announcer.

Give it time--he's knowledgeable, but he's ponderous and self-aggrandazing as hell.

[VR]

Phillips does the sideways cat walk thing as he runs around the bases. What's that all about?

He did that at the Saturday night game in Seattle, and almost fell down around 1st base. I was embarrassed for him.

[pedro]

He should slow way down when he goes by Rickey Henderson, who seems to have invented that kind of thing.

The thing I always remember about Rickey's HR's was the way he'd almost throw the bat down and make a face like he was kicking the ball out of the house.

[Ltlabner]

I just got home...looks like the game is not on FSN-Ohio tonight?

[Kc61]

Read this and you'll see that Belisle should only work with Ross:


http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=60083

Belisle just gives up too many hits for my taste. There are a number of 10 hit outings with Ross catching too.

On the other hand, occasionally he shows me something. He competes and keeps the ball down. I'm just not convinced he has the stuff to go through the lineup three times. I like him better as a long man.

He was impressive in the first inning tonight, he hung in there. I'd like to see him succeed, believe me.

[TeamBoone]

Read this and you'll see that Belisle should only work with Ross:


http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=60083

That may be true, but that's not what you said.

[pedro]

Give it time--he's knowledgeable, but he's ponderous and self-aggrandazing as hell.

That's a given. He's Keith Hernandez. But I'm listening to him for the second night in row and he hasn't made me angry yet. That's got be worth something these days.

[Matt700wlw]

JB says he's going to ask Wayne Krivsky why Moeller is here.

He can't figure it out, he doesn't get it, nor does he like it.... and would like to know....I would too

[MrCinatit]

I just got home...looks like the game is not on FSN-Ohio tonight?

Yeah - and I am wondering why in the name of babblingMarty it is not on television tonight. Is a fighting championship really that important?

[pedro]

I just received a PM from CN-RED on the sundeck who informed me that the "move" that Phillips does in between 1st and 2nd is a dance move from some dance they do in Atlanta. Looks like a rollerskating move to me.

[Matt700wlw]

Yeah - and I am wondering why in the name of babblingMarty it is not on television tonight. Is a fighting championship really that important?

I don't know why it's not on TV, but it makes no sense whatsoever....

Tomorrow's game is on, so it's not like they TV crew isn't there.

[VR]

JB says he's going to ask Wayne Krivsky why Moeller is here.

He can't figure it out, he doesn't get it, nor does he like it.... and would like to know....I would too

I walked out of the room....what was his response?

Did I hear him say it was a "no-brainer" that Conine and Hatteberg were going to be gone?

[WVRedsFan]

I'd like to know that too. The first time I noticed it I was afraid he was hurt.

That's part of the hot dog factor people were talking about earlier this week.

Kind of like wearing his cap crooked. It's a style thang...

[Matt700wlw]

I walked out of the room....what was his response?

Did I hear him say it was a "no-brainer" that Conine and Hatteberg were going to be gone?

He hasn't asked him yet...but he said he will when he gets a chance.

Hopefully he'll inform all of us as to his response -- I missed the "no brainer" thing.

[alloverjr]

I don't know why it's not on TV, but it makes no sense whatsoever....

Tomorrow's game is on, so it's not like they TV crew isn't there.

Well, maybe half is. Thom would have had to do Fox game of the week today, right?

[Matt700wlw]

Well, maybe half is. Thom would have had to do Fox game of the week today, right?

I don't know if he had a game today or not...he doesn't do one every week

[VR]

Glavine's season high for K's is 5. Looks like yet another opposing pitcher on his way to a personal best against the Reds this year.

[Matt700wlw]

Javy got Reyes!!!!

[CTA513]

Glavine's season high for K's is 5. Looks like yet another opposing pitcher on his way to a personal best against the Reds this year.

Shouldn't be to hard against a team that strikes out as much as the Reds.

[Reds Fanatic]

Valentin throws out Reyes attempting to steal.

[Falls City Beer]

Wow. Javy stuffs the toughest out on the basepaths in MLB.

And Ben Sheets left the game tonight with a blister. Probably no big deal, but all is not well in Brewers' pitching land.

[VR]

Crap. My feed just went haywire. It sounded like "Valentin....throws....out....Reyes"
Maybe I should re-boot.

[MrCinatit]

Ok, who replaced Noodles Valentin with the guy with the arm?

[alloverjr]

I don't know if he had a game today or not...he doesn't do one every week

I thought he did, oops!:doh:

[Matt700wlw]

Dunner!

[Reds Fanatic]

Delgado flies out to the warning track in left. 1-0 Reds after 3.

[MrCinatit]

Jeff with the phantom home run call - it sounded like that one was supposed to be out of the park, for sure.

[Falls City Beer]

Second time in two nights: thank god for Shea's dimensions.

[oneupper]

Delgado gave a "Pedro Cerrano" look after that long fly (his second).

[pedro]

Jeff with the phantom home run call - it sounded like that one was supposed to be out of the park, for sure.

Dunn lost the ball for a second so it looked like it might be out because he was looking way up.

[Matt700wlw]

Jeff with the phantom home run call - it sounded like that one was supposed to be out of the park, for sure.

He said he was fooled

[Patrick Bateman]

Ross has proven time and again that he can get Belisle to give up one run or less in a start, where Valentin continually calls the wrong pitches and locations to the tune of giving up a run per inning instead of a run per start like Ross.

Belisle isn't good enough to compensate for poor pitch calling and location, but he's good enough to pitch a good game with the right Catcher.

Don't underplay's ability as a catcher. He can call a good game, and he's great at throwing out runners. That's something that helps a player like Belisle, who gives up a single an inning as a groundball pitcher. Ross keeps those singles out of scoring position with his arm.

If your thesis about catching is correct, tehn how come Dane Sardhina is a laughing stock on this board rather than a 1st ballot hall of fame candidate?

If catchers could really make average pitchers like Belisle into sub 1.00 ERA pitchers then guys like Sardhina/Perez would have been called up to the majors ages ago because of their tremendous catching skills.

I'm not saying that these types of skills from catchers are unimportant, because they are, but 2 things I know for sure:

1. Catchers' offensive ability due indeed have an outcome on a game

and

2. You are vastly overrating the importance of defense for catchers.

[vaticanplum]

I just received a PM from CN-RED on the sundeck who informed me that the "move" that Phillips does in between 1st and 2nd is a dance move from some dance they do in Atlanta. Looks like a rollerskating move to me.

I love rollerskating.

Valentin throwing out Reyes beggars belief. I wish this team would make it easy for me to quit it. It's like a stale relationship: you're all ready to give up completely when it performs some inconsequential act of perfection that makes you believe things can be like they used to be, and suddenly it's maddeningly impossible to just walk away.

[Reds Fanatic]

Hopper grounds out to short.
Junior lines out to left.
Phillips lines out to short. 1-0 Reds mid 4th.

[Falls City Beer]

It's like a stale relationship: you're all ready to give up completely when it performs some inconsequential act of perfection that makes you believe things can be like they used to be, and suddenly it's maddeningly impossible to just walk away.


My wife says this to me with regularity. :beerme:

I'm a hard habit to break.

[Reds Fanatic]

Lo Duca reaches on an infield hit off Belisle's glove.

[WVRedsFan]

I still can't figure out our managers' (Narron and Mackanin) fascination with Ryan Freel. over the last 10 games, he's batting .220, scoring seven runs (three of them in one night) and driving in one. He's a defensive liability (IMO) because of his showboating (diving for balls when not called for). He replaces a kid who is in a slump (.182 in the same period with 6 less at bats), but has driven in 6 runs and scored 5 (11 total runs produced versus 7). I just don't get it unless Eddie is hurt and I doubt that.

[Reds Fanatic]

Green pops out to short. 1 out.

[Reds Fanatic]

Milledge strikes out swinging. 3 Ks for Belisle.

[BCubb2003]

I still can't figure out our managers' (Narron and Mackanin) fascination with Ryan Freel. over the last 10 games, he's batting .220, scoring seven runs (three of them in one night) and driving in one. He's a defensive liability (IMO) because of his showboating (diving for balls when not called for). He replaces a kid who is in a slump (.182 in the same period with 6 less at bats), but has driven in 6 runs and scored 5 (11 total runs produced versus 7). I just don't get it unless Eddie is hurt and I doubt that.

I can understand it. I might not necessarily agree with it, but I can understand it.

[Reds Fanatic]

Glavine grounds out to 1st. 1-0 Reds after 4.

[Eric_Davis]

I'd like to know that too. The first time I noticed it I was afraid he was hurt.


He said he drops the shoulder and has him arm hang down for his homies back home, but most pitchers don't like it and often buzz him the next time up, but he doesn't care.

[Reds Fanatic]

Dunn grounds out to 1st. 1 out.

[VR]

his homies back home

where else would his homies be? ;)

[MrCinatit]

I still can't figure out our managers' (Narron and Mackanin) fascination with Ryan Freel. over the last 10 games, he's batting .220, scoring seven runs (three of them in one night) and driving in one. He's a defensive liability (IMO) because of his showboating (diving for balls when not called for). He replaces a kid who is in a slump (.182 in the same period with 6 less at bats), but has driven in 6 runs and scored 5 (11 total runs produced versus 7). I just don't get it unless Eddie is hurt and I doubt that.

I agree completely. Unless Freel is being showcased for a trade - and even that does not make it right.

[Reds Fanatic]

Conine strikes out swinging. 4 Ks for Glavine. 2 outs.

[Eric_Davis]

Tell that to Johnny Bench, Yogi Berra, Pudge Rodriguez, Roy Campanella, and Carlton Fisk.

As long as the Reds are satisfied with .189 hitters in the lineup and 5.28 ERAs in the rotation, they will lose.

You just quoted four out of five catchers who were absolutely incredible at calling pitches and location, Fisk not included, but Fisk was OK at it. Those catchers were great because of how they handled pitchers and were Hall-of-Famers because of their offense, too.


It was like watching Leonard Bernstein last night while Pudge worked with the Detroit starter to strikeout Ichiro the first two times they faced him. That's almost an impossible task, but it's to the credit of Pudge and that he had a great pitcher to work with, but without Pudge, Ichiro never would have struck out twice, and probably not even once.

[Reds Fanatic]

Lopez flies out to left. 1-0 Reds mid 5th.

[Reds Fanatic]

Reyes strikes out swinging. 4 Ks for Belisle. 1 out.

[Eric_Davis]

That may be true, but that's not what you said.

Well, I do lack a lot of knowledge when trying to figure these things out.

I know Mackinen is in tune with Belisle's efforts with Valentin vs. Ross, as probably most of those inside the REDS' clubhouse do, but Mackinen could have had a meeting with the two before this game or sometime in between in order to help the two of them work better together. Since Mackinen was a scout, he knows a little bit about the game, and he could have a number of reasons for sending them out there together, even though Ross would have given him a much greater chance of success.

[Reds Fanatic]

Gotay flies out to center. 2 outs.

[Eric_Davis]

A very impressive stat of the night so far:

Through 4-2/3 IP, the Mets are 0-1 in SB attempts with Belisle/Valentin. That keeps those six singles out of scoring position for the most part. It makes the METS have to get 3 singles in an inning to score.

[Reds Fanatic]

Beltran flies out to left. 1-0 Reds after 5. 8 pitch inning for Belisle.

[BCubb2003]

Belisle outdueling Glavine.

[Matt700wlw]

Belisle outdueling Glavine.

Funny game that baseball is...

[vaticanplum]

My wife says this to me with regularity. :beerme:

I'm a hard habit to break.

Yeah...this team is nothing if not transgressive and ineluctable, that's for sure :p:

[Reds Fanatic]

Valentin flies out to right on the 1st pitch. 1 out.

[Reds Fanatic]

Belisle pops out to 2nd. 2 outs.

[Reds Fanatic]

Freel grounds out to short on the 1st pitch. Good play by Reyes. 1-0 Reds mid 6th.

[flyer85]

Putting Freel(309 OBP) and Hopper(303 OBP)in the 1-2 spot is loading the top of the order with out machines.

[VR]

At least Freel is getting his outs quickly instead of dragging the game out as a leadoff hitter working the count.

[Reds Fanatic]

Wright singles to left.

[Matt700wlw]

Putting Freel(309 OBP) and Hopper(303 OBP)in the 1-2 spot is loading the top of the order with out machines.

If they can get on base, they can cause problems for the opposition.

However, they don't get on base conisistantly enough to make it a worthwhile.

[TOBTTReds]

I'm getting tired of Freel's lack of smart baseball. Swinging on the first pitch as a leadoff hitter, swing on the first pitch and making out #3 after our pitcher puts a ball in play. Belisle was barely in the dugout when out 3 happened.

[Eric_Davis]

If your thesis about catching is correct, tehn how come Dane Sardhina is a laughing stock on this board rather than a 1st ballot hall of fame candidate?

If catchers could really make average pitchers like Belisle into sub 1.00 ERA pitchers then guys like Sardhina/Perez would have been called up to the majors ages ago because of their tremendous catching skills.

I'm not saying that these types of skills from catchers are unimportant, because they are, but 2 things I know for sure:

1. Catchers' offensive ability due indeed have an outcome on a game

and

2. You are vastly overrating the importance of defense for catchers.

What's difficult about this is you and I have no idea really how good a catcher is at calling a game. It's not measurable. If you attended every game, then you could see it, but on TV it's not there, and there are no stats that can support it in a box score. The coaches know, and especially coaches who were catchers themselves. Neither of us know how good Dane Sardhina was at calling pitches and locations.

One thing to watch is how Kenji Jojihma is now half-way into his 2nd year in the United States, and the Mariners are befuddling good. Nobody thinks they will maintain it, but I think that they'll get even better and mostly because of Jojihma's learning curve in the league of all the players. He's calling the pitches and locations and he's proving himself to be damn good at it.

[Reds Fanatic]

Delgado flies out to left on the 1st pitch. 1 out.

[Falls City Beer]

Yeah...this team is nothing if not transgressive and ineluctable, that's for sure :p:

Hey--I'm drunk. Don't bust my matzos.

[Matt700wlw]

Hey--I'm drunk. Don't bust my matzos.

No fair...you're drunk!

[Reds Fanatic]

Wright steals 2nd. No throw as Valentin can't get a grip on the ball.

[Matt700wlw]

Is this where Belisle cracks?

[Reds Fanatic]

Lo Duca grounds out to 2nd. Wright goes to 3rd. 2 out.

[Eric_Davis]

Ross keeps Wright out of scoring position there.

[oneupper]

Wright steals 2nd. No throw as Valentin can't get a grip on the ball.

Looked like a foul tip. If so, Valentin only had to drop the ball.

[Reds Fanatic]

Green singles to right. Tie game 1-1.

[VR]

Belisle outdueling Glavine.

Glavine hasn't pitched from the stretch yet.

[TOBTTReds]

Green singles to right. Tie game 1-1.

Broken bat jam job. Belisle had gotten lucky enough all night, that was bound to happen.

[Eric_Davis]

If Ross was catching that run would not have scored. It would have been part of a double-play on the previous play with LoDuca running to 1st.

[Falls City Beer]

No fair...you're drunk!

Jameson.

[Reds Fanatic]

Milledge lines out to left. 1-1 after 6.

Through 6:
Belisle 87 pitches
Glavine 77 pitches

[Matt700wlw]

Jameson.

You're not messing around

[Reds Fanatic]

Hopper grounds out to short. 1 out.

[vaticanplum]

Jameson.

I'm a lil drunk too, on local bar red wine. I don't see how else I'm supposed to tolerate this team anymore.

[Eric_Davis]

I'm getting tired of Freel's lack of smart baseball. Swinging on the first pitch as a leadoff hitter, swing on the first pitch and making out #3 after our pitcher puts a ball in play. Belisle was barely in the dugout when out 3 happened.


As Hernandez would say, that's the difference between winners and losers.

[BuckWoody]

Jameson.

That's good stuff....the wife and I are on the patio drinking wine this evening. I'm at a bit of a loss with them not on TV tonight... :(

[Matt700wlw]

I'm a lil drunk too, on local bar red wine. I don't see how else I'm supposed to tolerate this team anymore.

Not as fun sober, I can confirm that!

[Reds Fanatic]

Junior singles to right. 1st hit since the 2nd inning.

[Reds Fanatic]

Phillips grounds into a 5-4 fielder's choice. Good job by Junior in breaking up the DP. 2 outs.

[Reds Fanatic]

Phillips is thrown out attempting to steal. 1-1 mid 7th.

[CTA513]

Phillips was easily out at second.

[BuckWoody]

That "rally" ended quickly.

[TeamBoone]

I love that Budweiser commericial that just played.

[MrCinatit]

Not as fun sober, I can confirm that!

This is not an easy team to watch for non-drinkers.
Looks like I picked the wrong year to stop sniffing glue.

[pedro]

Now I remember why I had a favorable impression of Hernandez. For the second night in a row he's commented on what good clean hard slides the Reds made trying to break up DP's. None of this Tony Larussa, woe is me, we're the victims stuff. It's refreshing.

[Matt700wlw]

This is not an easy team to watch for non-drinkers.
Looks like I picked the wrong year to stop sniffing glue.

I'm not a non-drinker....just not currently drinking :)

Later perhaps.



Ross is in the game now...

[oneupper]

Four straight balls to Glavine. Get someone up

[Reds Fanatic]

Glavine walks on 4 pitches.

[CTA513]

Very good job by Belisle to walk Glavine on 4 pitches.

:bang:

[BuckWoody]

This is not an easy team to watch for non-drinkers.
Looks like I picked the wrong year to stop sniffing glue.

http://blogitlikeyoumeanit.files.wordpress.com/2007/03/airplane_steve_mccrosky.jpg

[VR]

Phillips getting thrown out a lot more than last year. Hopefully he's not falling in love with the long ball.

[Reds Fanatic]

Reyes flies out to center on the first pitch. 1 out.

[Eric_Davis]

Phillips is thrown out attempting to steal. 1-1 mid 7th.

I like LoDuca....yes, as a catcher that calls good pitches and locations. It's amazing how many rookies he helped last year do well for the Mets, and he's usually has a catcher's ERA a run less than other catcher's on the same team during his career.

He's a Free-Agent at the end of the year, at 36, and the skills he has defensively of calling games should remain the same for the next three years. I would love to see the REDS sign him to a 3-year contract at the end of the year jettison the 3-headed catcher idea by dumping Valentin, Moeller and Ross. Bring a minor leaguer up to play what games LoDuca doesn't.

[MrCinatit]

How do you walk the lead off batter - especially when it is the pitcher? Is he trying to lose on purpose?

[Matt700wlw]

This could get bad

[oneupper]

Ross is catching. Eric Davis called Mackanin.

[Reds Fanatic]

Gosling and Saarloos warming up.

Gotay singles to right. 1st and 2nd.

[Reds Fanatic]

Beltran strikes out swinging. 5 Ks for Belisle. 2 outs.

[Matt700wlw]

Wow...strikes out Beltran!

[Razor Shines]

That was a nasty pitch.

[pedro]

KH saying nice things about the Reds arms.

[Reds Fanatic]

Good job by Belisle. Wright strikes out swinging. 1-1 after 7.

[KronoRed]

This is not an easy team to watch for non-drinkers.
No kidding

[wally post]

Beltran looks terrible. Wright is only hitting low stuff. He just stuck out on a high fastball!

[TeamBoone]

Wow! That's some awesome pitching by Belisle to get out of that jam. I'm impressed!

[MrCinatit]

Sheesh I wish this game were on - sounds like some tremendous pitching by Matt.

[Falls City Beer]

That's good stuff....the wife and I are on the patio drinking wine this evening. I'm at a bit of a loss with them not on TV tonight... :(

I had to give Glenlivet and beer a break.

[Matt700wlw]

I am surprised he got out of that.

[oneupper]

Belisle at 101 pitches. I'd say that it for him

[VR]

Ross is catching. Eric Davis called Mackanin.

Looks like he's right.
Belisle ERA with JV tonight....1.50

with Ross....0.00.

Point and a half difference, easy money.

:)

[Razor Shines]

Beltran looks terrible. Wright is only hitting low stuff. He just stuck out on a high fastball!

But I think he was fooled, I think he was looking for that pitch that got Beltran out.

[TeamBoone]

Beltran looks terrible. Wright is only hitting low stuff. He just stuck out on a high fastball!

Hey Wally! How come you didn't go to the game?

[pedro]

This is not an easy team to watch for non-drinkers.


who's not drinking ;)

[Eric_Davis]

You look at Mack's comments after Belisle's last outing, and forcing him to work with Valentin could be a way of trying to force him to become a more dominating pitcher and not use Ross like a crutch. If he want's Belisle to become the pitcher this organization thinks he can be it might be the type of psychology that Mackanin is using to make Belisle a better pitcher.

You've got to like the results.

[Kc61]

That was the best pitching by Belisle I've seen during his career. He got ahead of both Beltran and Wright, set them up, and struck them out -- Beltran on an inside breaking pitch, Wright on a high fastball. Very nice job and with 95 pitches under his belt.

Belisle has been advantaged tonight by Shea, which held a couple of long ones inside the stadium. But that inning he showed something.

[oneupper]

Belisle was hardly dominating tonight.

[Eric_Davis]

Belisle at 101 pitches. I'd say that it for him

And no extra-base hits. That's so important to a groundball pitcher as they tend to give up a lot of singles.

The Six Strikeouts in 7 innings shows that his sinker was working, plus that was one hell of a sinker he threw to Wright in the 7th there.....I meant the one to Beltran...had to edit.

[MrCinatit]

who's not drinking ;)

OK - then it is tough for me to watch :p:

[Reds Fanatic]

Dunn lines out to left. 1 out.

[oneupper]

10 pitch AB for Dunn.

[Reds Fanatic]

Conine grounds out to Glavine. 2 outs.

[oneupper]

...and then Conine is out on the first pitch.

[VR]

Conine just getting used tonight by Glavine

[oneupper]

Conine just getting used tonight by Glavine

.211 in 52 ABs lifetime vs. Glavine coming in.

[Reds Fanatic]

Lopez strikes out swinging. 1-1 mid 8th.

[Matt700wlw]

Tie game....8th inning....probably time for the bullpen.

:pray:

[wally post]

Hey Wally! How come you didn't go to the game?

Hi TB - got home late from a studio today - just chillin now! Loving some time off the road.

I can't believe that Stanton is warming up. Oy.

[oneupper]

The REDS have been hacking tonight. 104 pitches for Glavine.

Stanton in.

[flyer85]

Stanton for the 3rd day in a row

[Eric_Davis]

Let's go REDS!

[Reds Fanatic]

Delgado pops out to short on the first pitch. 1 out.

[oneupper]

Gosling, Coffey and Saarloos are invisible to Mac.

[MrCinatit]

Jeff just called himself "dumber than a stack of bricks" for not knowing Roy McMillan was not with the '62 Mets :laugh:

[Reds Fanatic]

Lo Duca lines out to 3rd. 2 outs.

[Reds Fanatic]

Green doubles to left.

[Eric_Davis]

Hopper catches that easily as Dunn turns it into another adventure, but then Freel would have to be in Center and Edwin at 3rd.

[pedro]

Hopper catches that easily.

probably.

dunn gave it a good effort though.

[Matt700wlw]

:lol:

Figures

[Reds Fanatic]

Milledge singles to center. 2-1 Mets. Milledge goes to 2nd on the throw home.

[flyer85]

Hopper catches that easily.then why didn't he catch it?

[Eric_Davis]

Hopper catches that easily as Dunn turns it into another adventure, but then Freel would have to be in Center and Edwin at 3rd.


FWIW, I'd be leaving Dunn in there in a tie game anyway and take my chances.

[MrCinatit]

Must be the 8th inning. Sheesh.

[wally post]

what was that Hopper throw??? Aargh!

2-1 Mets

[Eric_Davis]

then why didn't he catch it?
Dunn was in Left.

[Reds Fanatic]

Pitching change.

Saarloss in to pitch. Damon Easley pinch hitting.

[Falls City Beer]

Stanton's not getting it done. Two outs and the bottom of the order gets him.

[wally post]

Stanton didn't back up the throw to home - well... to the backstop.

[oneupper]

Hopper with an awful throw. Late and 20 ft over the catcher.

[flyer85]

Dunn was in Left.then what does that have to do with Hopper in center

[MrCinatit]

But, again - why three days in a row? Pete taking the Narron approach - keep running them out there until they fail.

[flyer85]

Hopper with an awful throw. Late and 20 ft over the catcher.why didn't he catch it?

[VR]

Not sure why he left Stanton in there against Milledge. That's the exact kind of hitter Coffey CAN dominate. Oh yeah. Advance scouting.

[Reds Fanatic]

First pitch hits Easley.

[Matt700wlw]

Hopper with an awful throw. Late and 20 ft over the catcher.

Hamilton makes that throw :D

[wally post]

Ok.. the hit to center (Hopper) was grounder up the middle. I would guess that Eric Davis was suggesting taking Dunn out for defense - move Freel to center.. THEN, Hopper woulda had it. Am I right? :D

[Matt700wlw]

Not sure why he left Stanton in there against Milledge. That's the exact kind of hitter Coffey CAN dominate. Oh yeah. Advance scouting.

Pete Mackanin was the advaced scout....he must have missed the Mets

[flyer85]

Not sure why he left Stanton in there against Milledge. That's the exact kind of hitter Coffey CAN dominate. Oh yeah. Advance scouting.why he was in there in the first place was a better question, but the bullpen sucks because they are bad pitchers. Hoping bad pitchers will suddenly turn into good pitchers is wishful thinking.

[Matt700wlw]

Kirk Saarloos being used in a situation not suited for him

[Reds Fanatic]

Reyes grounds out to Saarloos. 2-1 Mets after 8.

[membengal]

All I can think is they are still trying to polish Stanton up and foist him on someone.

That's all I got. No other reason makes sense.

[Eric_Davis]

Ok.. the hit to center (Hopper) was grounder up the middle. I would guess that Eric Davis was suggesting taking Dunn out for defense - move Freel to center.. THEN, Hopper woulda had it. Am I right? :D


Well, actually, yes and no. In a tie game I would have left Dunn out there and taken my chances.

It will be nice to have Hamilton back, and like most of you, I don't understand Edwin not playing every single day at 3rd, slump or no slump.

[Reds Fanatic]

Ross, a pinch hitter, and Freel due up.

[Matt700wlw]

Ross, a pinch hitter, and Freel due up.

I would guess Hatteberg

[oneupper]

REDS now get to face Wagner's heat after looking at 82 mph fastballs from Glavine all night.

[oneupper]

I would guess Hatteberg

I'd guess Encarnacion.

[Eric_Davis]

REDS now get to face Wagner's heat after looking at 82 mph fastballs from Glavine all night.

Ross can't swing at a pitch that fast, nor can Freel.

[flyer85]

All I can think is they are still trying to polish Stanton up and foist him on someone.

That's all I got. No other reason makes sense.pitching a 40 year old 3 days in a row seems like a good way to get an injury before anything else. Most relievers tend to have problems on the 3rd day.

[Matt700wlw]

I'd guess Encarnacion.

Could be him...SHOULD be one of the two

[mth123]

Kirk Saarloos being used in a situation not suited for him

Yeah. Pitching.

[Reds Fanatic]

Wagner in to pitch.

[Matt700wlw]

Yeah. Pitching.

He got an out!

[MrCinatit]

I'd guess Encarnacion.

Both appear to be wrong. Keppinger.

[Matt700wlw]

Keppinger to pinch hit...

I guess that's not a bad option either, if his AAA numbers are any indicator of what he can do.

Not sure if I would have gone that route because of his inexperience.

[Reds Fanatic]

Ross strikes out swinging. 1 out.

[flyer85]

was there ever any doubt?

[Eric_Davis]

That was no contest. Ross should have been pinch-hit for by anyone.

[Reds Fanatic]

Keppinger in to pinch hit. Not sure why Encarnacion would not be your first choice then again I don't understand why he isn't starting anyway.

[Matt700wlw]

David Wright giving Glavine the scouting report on his former teammate