Votto and Bruce need to be in Cincy Aug. 1st

[BearcatShane]

The Reds in my opinion could save thereselves alot of money if they call up Votto and especially Bruce after the trade deadline. If the Reds trade Dunn they need to see if Bruce can hit major league pitching this year. If they do give him the call and he hits good enough then they would not have to spend 4-8 million dollars on a stop gap like Mike Cameron until Bruce is ready. They could just use all 25-32 million on bullpen help and maybe a couple starters. Anyone else agree?

[BEETTLEBUG]

YES MAYBE.

[joshnky]

If the Reds trade Dunn they need to see if Bruce can hit major league pitching this year.

They should make sure he can hit AAA pitching before they move him along. In the two games prior to tonight he was 1-8 albeit with a homerun. His 2-4 tonight helps that average but this guy was hardly a top prospect for the Yankees (2-3, 5.22ERA). The Reds need to give him a chance to sink or swim in AAA and not rush him. If he forces there hand and continues his torrid season, give him a call up in September. So far he has at times looked overmatched with the Bats.

I do agree that Votto should be up here as soon as they can move either Hatte or Conine.

[BearcatShane]

Also how does this lineup look?

1. CF Josh Hamilton
2. 2B Brandon Phillips
3. RF Ken Griffey Jr.
4. 3B Edwin Encarnacion
5. LF Jay Bruce
6 1B Joey Votto
7. SS Alex Gonzalez
8. C David Ross
9 Pitcher


If Votto and Bruce don't struggle a ton when their called up that lineup can be very dangerous. Why not get Bruce ready now so he knows what to expect in 2008? And we could get a good starter and totally rebuild the bullpen this offseason. Thats just my opinion.

[BearcatShane]

They should make sure he can hit AAA pitching before they move him along. In the two games prior to tonight he was 1-8 albeit with a homerun. His 2-4 tonight helps that average but this guy was hardly a top prospect for the Yankees (2-3, 5.22ERA).

I do agree that Votto should be up here as soon as they can move either Hatte or Conine.


Thats only 8 at bats though, and even if the guy the Yanks threw out there tonight has been strugling this year you can't expect a 4-4 night. I'll be concerned if he's hitting .250 down there after 80 at bats. It's not like he's been overmatched in AAA either.

[joshnky]

Thats only 8 at bats though, and even if the guy the Yanks threw out there tonight has been strugling this year you can't expect a 4-4 night. I'll be concerned if he's hitting .250 down there after 80 at bats. It's not like he's been overmatched in AAA either.

My point exactly. It might be jumping the gun to call for his promotion when he only has 12 ABs in AAA. He needs more than 2 weeks to prove himself.

[BearcatShane]

My point exactly. It might be jumping the gun to call for his promotion when he only has 12 ABs in AAA. He needs more than 2 weeks to prove himself.


Yea, I'll give ya that. But after 100-120 at bats if he's hitting .320 with 8 homers and 30 RBI I think it would then be time to give him a shot.

[Degenerate39]

Votto: Yes
Bruce: No

[joshnky]

Yea, I'll give ya that. But after 100-120 at bats if he's hitting .320 with 8 homers and 30 RBI I think it would then be time to give him a shot.

I agree. Hopefully he'll be able to put up those numbers and force the decision. Although if we keep Dunn and Griffey he won't have a spot to play in and we'll just have to wait until next year.

Edit: I'd like his numbers against AAA lefties to be decent as well before he gets the call.

[BearcatShane]

I agree. Hopefully he'll be able to put up those numbers and force the decision. Although if we keep Dunn and Griffey he won't have a spot to play in and we'll just have to wait until next year.

Edit: I'd like his numbers against AAA lefties to be decent as well before he gets the call.


If we still have Dunn and Griffey and August 1st I won't be happy. We NEED that 13 mill in my opinion.

[Degenerate39]

If we still have Dunn and Griffey and August 1st I won't be happy. We NEED that 13 mill in my opinion.

If we don't have don't have Dunn and Griffey I won't be happy.

WE ARE NOT GOING TO GET A POWER HITTER ANY CHEAPER THAN DUNN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[BearcatShane]

If we don't have don't have Dunn and Griffey I won't be happy.

WE ARE NOT GOING TO GET A POWER HITTER ANY CHEAPER THAN DUNN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



How much power do we need? Hamilton will hit at LEAST 20 per year, Griffey if healty is going to hit at least 35, Phillips will hit at least 25 per year, Gonzo will hit 15-20, Edwin I think will hit 15-20, Ross will hit 20. And I'd bet Bruce and Votto would combine for at least 40. We've led the NL in homers the past couple years where has it gotten us?

[Screwball]

We've led the NL in homers the past couple years where has it gotten us?

:bang:

I'm tired of hearing this argument. The problem hasn't been the offense. Look at the pitching staffs for why this team has struggled for years.

[Degenerate39]

How much power do we need? Hamilton will hit at LEAST 20 per year, Griffey if healty is going to hit at least 35, Phillips will hit at least 25 per year, Gonzo will hit 15-20, Edwin I think will hit 15-20, Ross will hit 20. And I'd bet Bruce and Votto would combine for at least 40. We've led the NL in homers the past couple years where has it gotten us?

So far Hamilton hasn't proved he can stay healthy for a whole season.

[BearcatShane]

:bang:

I'm tired of hearing this argument. The problem hasn't been the offense. Look at the pitching staffs for why this team has struggled for years.

And thats why I wanna trade Dunn, use the money we would be paying him on pitching.

[BearcatShane]

So far Hamilton hasn't proved he can stay healthy for a whole season.


True. But this is the longest stretch he's played baseball in what? 4 years. If he really commits himself this offseason and trains hard he should be fine. I do understand why you would be concerned though.

[Degenerate39]

True. But this is the longest stretch he's played baseball in what? 4 years. If he really commits himself this offseason and trains hard he should be fine. I do understand why you would be concerned though.

If he stays off the clean. After all

http://www.urbanjapan.com/artman/uploads/chappelle_rick_james.jpg

Cocaine is a hell of a drug.

[BearcatShane]

I don't even wanna think about him getting back into that....

[Degenerate39]

I don't even wanna think about him getting back into that....

God forbid that he does. I'm sure that he won't but you can never tell.

[jmac]

Votto: Yes
Bruce: No

Agree.

[BucksandReds]

Who are these free agent pitchers we should spend this 13 million on? Linebrink is the only value out there. I offer him the closers role here and see where that gets us. NO starter that will be a free agent will be worth their salary. If you can get good value for Dunn or Griffey (i.e. decent reliever and young starter or hitter) you trade them, othrewise you keep them and try to trade next year or sign up for as reasonably as possible. Worst case scenario is you get a valuable compensatory pick when they walk. Bruce should not come up this year and Votto should have been starting for a month. Bailey is still going to be a great pitcher and Harang is an ace so we won't need Bailey to be a #1 for 3-4 years. Arroyo is turning it around so we really need t find 1 starter out of the minors or a cheap free agent preferably a veteran that's not 40. Were not going to win the World Series in the next 2 years but were not bad enough to need to start from scratch.

[Chi-Town Red]

again..i have said this over and over...you need power hitters...YOU PLAY IN A POWER HITTERS PARK!!!!

[Degenerate39]

again..i have said this over and over...you need power hitters...YOU PLAY IN A POWER HITTERS PARK!!!!

Music to my ears thank you

[BearcatShane]

again..i have said this over and over...you need power hitters...YOU PLAY IN A POWER HITTERS PARK!!!!



You need pitching, we've tried to out score people, it doesn't work. I don't care if we play in a power hitters park or not, I'd rather have a bunch of guys that hit 15-22 homers, play good defence, and hit in the clutch.

[BearcatShane]

The Reds lead baseball right now with 130 home runs, if you take away Dunn's 24 home runs we'd have 106, thats still good for the 4th most home runs in baseball. I'd have to think Votto is going to hit more homers than Hatteberg in 2008 and if Jay Bruce is infact in left field he'll hit 18-24 homers. So it's not a stretch to think the Reds could still lead baseball in homers WITHOUT Adam Dunn in 2008. What do you guys think of that?

[BearcatShane]

nm

[Degenerate39]

The Reds lead baseball right now with 130 home runs, if you take away Dunn's 24 home runs we'd have 106, thats still good for the 4th most home runs in baseball. I'd have to think Votto is going to hit more homers than Hatteberg in 2008 and if Jay Bruce is infact in left field he'll his 18-24 homers. So it's not a stretch to think the Reds could still lead baseball in homers WITHOUT Adam Dunn in 2008. What do you guys think of that?

It would be ludicrous to put Bruce in left field and waste that arm of his.

[BearcatShane]

It would be ludicrous to put Bruce in left field and waste that arm of his.


Well Griffey is probably not going to welcome another position move and is Bruce better than Hamilton in center? I don't know. Id like to have Griffey in left, Bruce is right and Hamilton in center but I'm not sure that's possible. Anyway, what is your opinion on my original point about the home runs?

[Blue]

You need pitching, we've tried to out score people, it doesn't work. I don't care if we play in a power hitters park or not, I'd rather have a bunch of guys that hit 15-22 homers, play good defence, and hit in the clutch.

The objective of the game is to outscore people. The question is how you go about doing it. Trade 50 runs of offense for 50 fewer runs allowed by pitching, you're no better off.

[AmarilloRed]

I agree that Joey Votto should be in Cincinnati as soon as we can call him up. You have got a couple of things wrong with regard to Bruce. First, he is a natural right fielder and will be taking over in right after Griffey's contract runs out. Second, it is stretching things to suppose Bruce will be playing in Cincinnati this year. He was only brought up to Louisville this year because he was doing very well in AAA and Louisville needed outfielders. He will be in Louisville the rest of this year and possibly some of next year. Also, it is possible he might go back to AA at some point this year

[BearcatShane]

The objective of the game is to outscore people. The question is how you go about doing it. Trade 50 runs of offense for 50 fewer runs allowed by pitching, you're no better off.



It depends on who Dunn's replacement is. If we had Reggie Willits in left instead of Dunn I think we'd be batter because he plays good defence and he would set the table for Phillips and Griffey to drive him in.

[Lockdwn11]

again..i have said this over and over...you need power hitters...YOU PLAY IN A POWER HITTERS PARK!!!!

I disagree,this is a power hitters park it makes power hitters out of players you don't need guy that can hit the ball 500 feet to hit balls out of GABP. Does Brandon Phillips hit 30+ homers anywhere else?

[Chi-Town Red]

your going to give up more runs than almost anywhere else, i don't care who you have pitching...you have to score alot of runs to win at GABP...your not going to score runs hitting singles...sorry

[Lockdwn11]

your going to give up more runs than almost anywhere else, i don't care who you have pitching...you have to score alot of runs to win at GABP...your not going to score runs hitting singles...sorry

Who said anything about hitting singles? What I'm saying is you don't have to be a "Quote" power hitter to hit 30+ homeruns in GABP. Homeruns are great but the Reds have been at the top or near the top of the league in Homeruns for sometime now what has that got them? You can't have a team of power hitters hitting solo homers and expect to win you also need pitching,defense and guys who get on base.

[Driver62]

I'd also like to see Votto up here but unless the Reds move some people before the trading deadline, I doubt you'll see him before September when the rosters expand.

When they do call him up, I hope they play him...won't help him any sitting on the bench. But the Reds have been known to do some things that don't make sense.

Buy the way, Bruce is not ready and should stay where he is for now. Let's see what he does the rest of the AAA season. If he does well, invite him to spring training next year and go from there.

[Ludwig Reds Fan]

again..i have said this over and over...you need power hitters...YOU PLAY IN A POWER HITTERS PARK!!!!


Gotta disagree here. I would think you would want power hitters more if home field was a PITCHERS PARK, because the ball would have to travel farther to leave the park.

In a hitters park like GABP, you dont need to be a power hitter to crush home runs. Heck, even the pitchers go yard there.

No...I would argue that in a small ballpark, pitching and defense is where you put the money.

[Lockdwn11]

Gotta disagree here. I would think you would want power hitters more if home field was a PITCHERS PARK, because the ball would have to travel farther to leave the park.

In a hitters park like GABP, you dont need to be a power hitter to crush home runs. Heck, even the pitchers go yard there.

No...I would argue that in a small ballpark, pitching and defense is where you put the money.

That is what I was trying to say.

[nate]

I disagree,this is a power hitters park it makes power hitters out of players you don't need guy that can hit the ball 500 feet to hit balls out of GABP. Does Brandon Phillips hit 30+ homers anywhere else?

For his career, exactly half of his home runs have come on the road so the answer is, maybe!

[AmarilloRed]

Back to the original question . I believe we could see Votto in Cincinnati by August 1st when Hatteberg or Conine are traded. I don't see any way one of them is on our team August 1st. Bruce is a different story. He will spend the rest of the year in AAA unless he hits .450 with 50 hr and 150 rbis in AAA. I'm being facetious, but he would really have to impress to be called up by August 1st. A September callup is a remote possibility.

[Lockdwn11]

Back to the original question . I believe we could see Votto in Cincinnati by August 1st when Hatteberg or Conine are traded. I don't see any way one of them is on our team August 1st. Bruce is a different story. He will spend the rest of the year in AAA unless he hits .450 with 50 hr and 150 rbis in AAA. I'm being facetious, but he would really have to impress to be called up by August 1st. A September callup is a remote possibility.

I agree with ^^^^^^^

[BearcatShane]

your going to give up more runs than almost anywhere else, i don't care who you have pitching...you have to score alot of runs to win at GABP...your not going to score runs hitting singles...sorry



If you have a very good starting rotation you can win no matter how small the park is. Look at Aaron Harang's numbers at home. GABP will give up some cheap home runs but if your a good pitcher you will do fine in GABP. And you can score by getting singles if the other hitters in the lineup are capable of knocking you in.

[BearcatShane]

Alot of people say GABP killed Eric Milton's career. That's not the case, his injuries killed his career. When he gave up homers they were not cheap, they were 450 footers. The reason the Reds pitchers have struggled so much in GABP is not all the fault of the ballpark, it's because the pitchers just aren't that good for the most part. Aaron Harang and the 2006 Arroyo are the only really good pitchers I recall on the Reds since 2003.

[nate]

If you have a very good starting rotation you can win no matter how small the park is. Look at Aaron Harang's numbers at home. GABP will give up some cheap home runs but if your a good pitcher you will do fine in GABP. And you can score by getting singles if the other hitters in the lineup are capable of knocking you in.

Starters can't pitch 9 innings every night.

[BearcatShane]

Starters can't pitch 9 innings every night.

I know that, so with all the money they're going to have this offseason they need to get some relievers capable of posting a scoreless inning on a consistant basis. Like Scott Linebrink.

[BLEEDS]

How much power do we need? Hamilton will hit at LEAST 20 per year, Griffey if healty is going to hit at least 35, Phillips will hit at least 25 per year, Gonzo will hit 15-20, Edwin I think will hit 15-20, Ross will hit 20. And I'd bet Bruce and Votto would combine for at least 40. We've led the NL in homers the past couple years where has it gotten us?

Griffey is going to retire/be traded when his contract is up in 2 years.

We should keep the 27 year old, not the 37 year old.

The SMARTEST thing we could do is let our lineup/roster look like this for 2008:

Hamilton, CF
Phillips, 2B
Griffey, RF
Dunn, LF
EE, 3B
Votto, 1B
Gonzalez, SS
Ross, C

Bench:
Lopez, IF
Keppinger, IF
Hopper, OF
Freel, OF
Valentin, C

for 2009:

Hamilton, CF
Bruce, RF
Phillips, 2B
Dunn, LF
EE, 3B
Votto, 1B
Gonzalez, SS
Ross, C

Bench:
same, with maybe Janish instead of Lopez, we'll see who the next Reds SS is going to be and start getting him some PT

PEACE

-BLEEDS

[Carolina Red]

I'm not so sure Votto or Bruce will benifit from a call up. I saw Votto play earlier this year and I wasn't impressed at all, but of course that was just one game. Bruce needs more time in AAA. Maybe this time next year?