Why is Stanton still here?

[Slyder]

Another great job of keeping us in the game by Mike Stanton... Why is he still here? Cut your losses he's not got "it" anymore. Nows the time we ought to be seeing what Marcus MacBeth and the rest of the Louisville pen has to offer the big club. The longer you keep deadwood like Stanton to further he'll drag the team down.

[Degenerate39]

He knows how to lose

[Muggerd]

He got nailed with a line drive on the leg, if anything its petes fault for not taking him out.

[Slyder]

He got nailed with a line drive on the leg, if anything its petes fault for not taking him out.

Must have missed that when I answered the phone, when did it happen?

[Muggerd]

Must have missed that when I answered the phone, when did it happen?

like the 2nd batter he faced

[GoReds33]

He got nailed with a line drive on the leg, if anything its petes fault for not taking him out.Good. Maybe he'll go on the dl. I want McBeth up here now. We need some more good arms. Look at Arizona. Their slow guys still throw 92-93. Our slow guys throw like 88.

[Muggerd]

Good. Maybe he'll go on the dl. I want McBeth up here now. We need some more good arms. Look at Arizona. Their slow guys still throw 92-93. Our slow guys throw like 88.

Until a week ago our fast guys threw 88 if you take away burton

[AmarilloRed]

I saw that Majewski threw 90 mph today; too bad he doesn't have an out pitch.Velocity does not help if you can't locate your pitches.

[Muggerd]

I saw that Majewski threw 90 mph today; too bad he doesn't have an out pitch.Velocity does not help if you can't locate your pitches.

He gets people down in the count almost every time but gives up a gopher

[Degenerate39]

Velocity does not help if you can't locate your pitches.

Like Todd Coffey

[GoReds33]

Like Todd CoffeyIt sometimes does. Ask Randy Johnson. At times he couldn't hit water if he fell out of a boat. He still had a cannon.

[AmarilloRed]

He also had several other effective pitches he could get you out with.

[GoReds33]

He also had several other effective pitches he could get you out with.Thats true. His slider was nasty.:cool:

[mound_patrol]

I didnt think majewski threw bad at all. Both hits were weak. Much rather have had him stay in then stanton.

[GoReds33]

I didnt think majewski threw bad at all. Both hits were weak. Much rather have had him stay in then stanton.Stanton needs to be dfa'd now.

[AmarilloRed]

Stanton had an effective stretch in the middle of the season, but he can no longer consistantly get men out. Hitters are fouling off his best pitches now where previously they missed them. It is very difficult for Wayne to get rid of elderly relievers, however. You are correct about Majewski. He did well last night and was effective for 1 inning today. He is a player I hope can comeback, along with Guardado. It may be the end of both of them after this year, however.

[Chi-Town Red]

WK cant get rid of him because he is the one who brought him in. The guy doesn't have it anymore ...period.

[AmarilloRed]

I believe this is the last year we have Majewski signed for; I would not think WK would re-sign him unless he lowers his era. I have a small amount of faith he will do better Chi-Town Red, but I fear his injuries have finished him as an effective reliever.

[GoReds33]

I believe this is the last year we have Majewski signed for; I would not think WK would re-sign him unless he lowers his era. I have a small amount of faith he will do better Chi-Town Red, but I fear his injuries have finished him as an effective reliever.No. Majewski is not a free agent after this year I think. I think he goes to arbitration. They won't just let him go if it is arbitration.

[AmarilloRed]

No. Majewski is not a free agent after this year I think. I think he goes to arbitration. They won't just let him go if it is arbitration.

If he has a era over 12.00 when he goes to arbitration, I would be very surprised if the Reds offer him arbitration.

[Slyder]

*bump*

Again I ask why is he still here when we could go with Macbeth or another younger arm who may actually have long term promise?

[redsupport]

maybe they have not seen enough of stanton yet, he needs more exposure possibly?

[Slyder]

They need to get rid of him. He's done. Get him out of town before we have to put up with him for not 1 but 2 more years after this.

[Orenda]

They need to get rid of him. He's done. Get him out of town before we have to put up with him for not 1 but 2 more years after this.

His deal is up after next season. At first I thought Krivsky was trying to display him and trade him but who else is foolish enough to take him? The most frustrating thing about watching this team for me is feeling like their most competitive team isnt on the field.

[Slyder]

His deal is up after next season. At first I thought Krivsky was trying to display him and trade him but who else is foolish enough to take him? The most frustrating thing about watching this team for me is feeling like their most competitive team isnt on the field.

Someone said that with a certain number of appearances Stanton's option year becomes guarenteed.

*Edit* http://www.redszone.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1360147&postcount=1

140 games between 07-08.

He's about 2/5th of the way there now at 54. Do we really want to risk any more money on him doing anything next year after a year of being even worse than he was with Washington?

[Orenda]

Someone said that with a certain number of appearances Stanton's option year becomes guarenteed.

*Edit* http://www.redszone.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1360147&postcount=1

140 games between 07-08.

He's about 2/5th of the way there now at 54. Do we really want to risk any more money on him doing anything next year after a year of being even worse than he was with Washington?

Wow and I disliked his contract before. I wouldn't want to risk the money, but its not my money. BCast has already ate part of Larue's deal and Tony Womack's deal. (anyone else I forgot?) He also had the misfortune of having to pay Mr. Milton. I think he will want to get whatever value he can out of Stanton. The question he and Krivsky will need to answer is will Stanton have a positive impact on the franchise/business, or are they paying someone money that will have a negative effect on wins and loss totals, which could effect $attendance$. Even if he plays back to his norms next year Im not sure having him on the roster is going to help the reds in the long run. Some people argue Weathers, Stanton, and Guardado are good influences on the younger relievers. If that is the case fine, but why pay all the player development, minor and major league coaches?

[Slyder]

Only thing I can think of as to why Stanton is still here is because of the fact they already ate some contracts already so they dont want too much red ink going into this fiscal year so they are waiting for the next to dump Stanton on the 08 books to lessen the blow. I just hope theyve told Mackanin to cut it out with Stanton as often just in case next year he actually shows something and they have some flexibility with that 140 game deal.

[AmarilloRed]

He does have a fairly large contract next year. I have heard it may be in the range of 3/3.5 million. I would appreciate any further information on that. I believe Krivsky was putting him out there in the hopes his performance would improve, and he could trade him. Sadly, the reverse seems to be happening.

[Screwball]

From the Fay (http://frontier.cincinnati.com/blogs/redsinsider/):


This loss was remarkably similar to other one on the road trip. It was a close game until Mike Stanton entered the equation.

He gave up a three-run, two-out home run to Geoff Jenkins that made it 6-1.

“That was the ball game,” Stanton said. “If I do my job and get Jenkins out, I don't think there's any doubt we win that ball game.”

The Reds were not good offensively. They left 13 runners on base.

But, as Stanton said, this was a winnable game. In his previous outing, Stanton gave up four runs without retiring a batter. Since coming off the disabled list on July 4, Stanton’s ERA is 8.15.

“It's one of those runs – not to make any excuses because there are none,” Stanton said. “If I make a good pitch, they foul it off. They’re just not missing mistakes . . . it's just a shame.”

With Stanton and Eddie Guardado both struggling, middle relief is a major problem right now. With good young arms like Marcus McBeth and Brad Salmon at Triple-A, you wonder how long the Reds will stick with the current bullpen makeup.


It's pretty evident Stanton just doesn't have it anymore. If you end up having to rely on guys "missing mistakes", then you're in some serious trouble when you only throw mid-80s "heat".

I could understand Krivksy earlier in the year allowing Stanton to stay and work through his problems in hopes he would become another Weathers (remember all those people calling for his head last year?), but this has gone on long enough. He's getting paid either way - I say pay him to not lose games, rather than the current situation.

[BEETTLEBUG]

I agree whole hardedly.

[JLB5]

I think the Reds best hope is that Stanton realizes he is done and retires (at least at the end of the year). If he has any ounce of self-respect, you'd think he'd hang it up instead of getting his brains bashed in for another year. It can't be fun for him anymore. Of course, over the past 5 or so years he's been going through these kind of stretches and then he pulls out of it long enough for teams to think he is valuable. The Reds have 2 viable young lefties in Cout, Bray, and Gosling. If they find some starting help, Dumatrait could possibly be a 4th option out of the pen. I think Everyday Eddie is done, although I'd give him a shot in spring training to see if his arm strength comes back. I don't know how soon they have to decide on his option.

[StrikeIndicator]

Do you really think that he or his agent is going to walk away quietly and give up
$3,500,000 dollars?

I agree with you that he should be gone, but as his agent would say, "hey, they signed the deal too"

[Muggerd]

Yea no way stanton retires :bowrofl:

[AmarilloRed]

We needed Stanton at the beginning of the year with the mess our bullpen was in, but he have seen certain players on the Reds team and in AAA show they are superior alternatives. Stanton must realize that without major improvement, this is his last year in baseball.

[redsupport]

a) Rafael Landestoy
b) Tim Belk
c) Elio Chacon
d) Mike Stanton

[Degenerate39]

a) Rafael Landestoy
b) Tim Belk
c) Elio Chacon
d) Mike Stanton

What is Mike Stanton for 500

[DeadRedinCT]

e) Keefe Cato

[mound_patrol]

I know a lot of people are down on Stanton, but we do need to remember that he is a stand up guy and gives his best effort each outing. It's not his fault that he keeps getting run out there.

[HokieRed]

MacKanin has to pitch somebody.

[Degenerate39]

MacKanin has to pitch somebody.

Doesn't have to be Stanton every other day

[Screwball]

I know a lot of people are down on Stanton, but we do need to remember that he is a stand up guy and gives his best effort each outing. It's not his fault that he keeps getting run out there.

True, but he's not to be absolved from his messes either. As poorly as he's been pitching this year, he deserves all the criticism he gets, IMO.

[SMcGavin]

Wow if it was all Stanton's fault he must be worse than I realized, considering he gave up three runs and the Reds lost by four.

Stanton is not good, everyone knows it, you post the same thing about him every day. The guy didn't even pitch today and this thread still gets started. Get over it.

[Muggerd]

Pete MacKanin isnt an option? He had more of a hand in not getting the sweep than anyone did. Pulling the starter after 5 innings and less than 70 pitches :dunno:

[durl]

Stanton is not consistently bad. Is he the most dependable guy in the NL central? Of course not. But he has had long periods in which he's gotten the job done quite nicely.

[Muggerd]

Stanton is not consistently bad. Is he the most dependable guy in the NL central? Of course not. But he has had long periods in which he's gotten the job done quite nicely.

what year was this?

[AmarilloRed]

He currently has a 5.93 ERA. If we are going to unload vitriol on Coffey for his high ERA (and we did), we need to hold Stanton to the same standard. Unfortunately, Stanton is signed to a 2 year, 3.5 million yearly contract. It will be very hard to get rid of him. I would prefer to simply have him on the roster and never use him unless we are in a blow-out. I could be wrong about that contract, so I would request precise details.

[Ahhhorsepoo]

I agree Stanton is more than 90% of the time a very dependable arm out of the bullpen..

If you look at the stats.. mike stanton has only had 5 bad games.. granted they were terrible(giving up more than 1 run), but you take out those 5 games out of the 54 games he has pitched.. His ERA is 2.6.... and his bad games have been more the rarity than his good games.. He has given up 17 of his 29 ER in less than 3 of his 44 innings pitched.. soo when he is having those bad games, dont you think it falls on the pitching coach for not reckognizing maybe it isnt stantons night? I know some should fall on him b/c he should know as well, but as competitive as he is sometimes a 3rd party must step in with a reasonable head to help make a decision.. something pohle is afraid to do..

[durl]

what year was this?

Stanton has given up 7 runs in his last 2 outtings. But he's given up runs in consecutive outtings only 2 other times all year: a three game span in mid-July and 2 games in early May.

April: 12 App, 7 IP, 4 ER. He had one outting in which he gave up 3 runs. He allowed only one run in the other 11 appearances. Streak of 6 IP, 1 ER.

May: 14 App, 11.1 IP, 7 ER. One outting of 3 runs and no one retired. Streak of 11 IP, 4 ER.

June: 9 App, 7.2 IP, 2 ER. Allowed one run in his first appearance in the month then went 7 appearances before allowing the 2nd run of the month.

July: 12 App, 9.2 IP, 8 ER. 1 appearance with 4 runs allowed. Streaks of 5 IP, 2 ER and 4 IP, 2 ER

August: 8 App, 8 IP, 8 ER. Streak of 7 IP, 1 ER.

After a VERY good June, his last 2 months have been pretty bad overall. Even so, his bad outtings tend to be surrounded by many appearances with few runs allowed. He's had 5 bad appearances in which his line is 1.2 IP, 17 ER. Now that's TERRIBLE in anyone's book. I'm simply pointing out that he's has fairly good streaks in which he allows few runs.

[Ahhhorsepoo]

Stanton has given up 7 runs in his last 2 outtings. But he's given up runs in consecutive outtings only 2 other times all year: a three game span in mid-July and 2 games in early May.

April: 12 App, 7 IP, 4 ER. He had one outting in which he gave up 3 runs. He allowed only one run in the other 11 appearances. Streak of 6 IP, 1 ER.

May: 14 App, 11.1 IP, 7 ER. One outting of 3 runs and no one retired. Streak of 11 IP, 4 ER.

June: 9 App, 7.2 IP, 2 ER. Allowed one run in his first appearance in the month then went 7 appearances before allowing the 2nd run of the month.

July: 12 App, 9.2 IP, 8 ER. 1 appearance with 4 runs allowed. Streaks of 5 IP, 2 ER and 4 IP, 2 ER

August: 8 App, 8 IP, 8 ER. Streak of 7 IP, 1 ER.

After a VERY good June, his last 2 months have been pretty bad overall. Even so, his bad outtings tend to be surrounded by many appearances with few runs allowed. He's had 5 bad appearances in which his line is 1.2 IP, 17 ER. Now that's TERRIBLE in anyone's book. I'm simply pointing out that he's has fairly good streaks in which he allows few runs.


that last paragraph looks familiar.. hehe

[durl]

that last paragraph looks familiar.. hehe

We were on the same line of thought at almost the exact same time, weren't we? :)

[AmarilloRed]

With the exception of June, he has got progressively worse. He had an ERA of 4.93 in April, 5.56 in May, 7.45 in July, and 9.00 in August. I can barely wait to see the disastrous September he will have.

[Ahhhorsepoo]

We were on the same line of thought at almost the exact same time, weren't we? :)

quite interesting.. but we both seem to agree that his bad outings are far fewer than his reasonably successful outings, and he still has some play on a major league team.. am i correct with that thought?

[durl]

quite interesting.. but we both seem to agree that his bad outings are far fewer than his reasonably successful outings, and he still has some play on a major league team.. am i correct with that thought?

I agree with you. He has some VERY good streaks of few runs allowed.

AmarilloRed also has a point, though. Stanton's ERA is getting progressively worse and that should be a concern to the team. My point (and your's as well) was that he's not a guy who gives up a run every appearance but rather one that has a really bad appearance every now and then.

[Ahhhorsepoo]

With the exception of June, he has got progressively worse. He had an ERA of 4.93 in April, 5.56 in May, 7.45 in July, and 9.00 in August. I can barely wait to see the disastrous September he will have.

Oh man, I guess we should extrapolate on everyones trends..

Dunn has had up months then down months, then up months all year.. soo he will hit .230 or lower if it is anything like last year.. with 3 home runs..

BPhill will be consistant, and based on his current data JKepp will hit close to 400..

Lets be serious here.. you cant always look at someones card, and say they wont hit 40 homers instead of 35, to extrapolate and tell me there will be ZERO change from the trend is as stupid as they come..

[AmarilloRed]

Stanton has had 1 good month. He didn't get a era of 5.93 by accident. We can only go by past performance, and then make assumptions from that. I have seen nothing from him that makes me think he will improve in the future. However, I will watch his future progress, and hope you are right that he can straighten himself out. He has consistantly pitched bad this year, and you can't sugarcoat that.

[StrikeIndicator]

Stanton has had 1 good month. He didn't get a era of 5.93 by accident. We can only go by past performance, and then make assumptions from that. I have seen nothing from him that makes me think he will improve in the future. However, I will watch his future progress, and hope you are right that he can straighten himself out. He has consistantly pitched bad this year, and you can't sugarcoat that.


But he has looked good in June, except that was against guys who were not hitting very well.

He looked awful on Saturday. Watching was painful, as you knew if was not a matter of "if" but of "when"

[BEETTLEBUG]

I thought Stanton only had one more year where did 2009 option come from?

[StrikeIndicator]

He currently has a 5.93 ERA. If we are going to unload vitriol on Coffey for his high ERA (and we did), we need to hold Stanton to the same standard. Unfortunately, Stanton is signed to a 2 year, 3.5 million yearly contract. It will be very hard to get rid of him. I would prefer to simply have him on the roster and never use him unless we are in a blow-out. I could be wrong about that contract, so I would request precise details.

Penny wise and Pound foolish
The problem with this is that you are wasting a MLB roster spot and keeping someone who is more deserving down on the farm just because someone (WK??) made a mistake and signed him to a long term contract that they were unable to unload on any 2007 contender even after they polished up his numbers before the trade deadline

So, McBeth or Salmon rot another season in L'ville, "we can do this to them because they have options" is the standard reply on this board.

Here is the flaw in that logic. It is also probably the reason why Coffey was signed to a new deal "before they had to" as many here have also complained about in other threads.

Put yourself in the shoes of the athlete and agent. You have proven that you can compete at this level.
You both know that the only way you are going to get better and comfortable with MLB hitting is to pitch to MLB hitters. So, you get sent down a few times, (which also affects your income adversely) and oh, Pete doesn't know why this is happening and WK is off playing golf.
You watch Eddie, Majic and Stanton suck while you are back riding the bus. At some point your agent goes to the FO and says, "either move me up or lose me. If you continue to keep me down in the minors we will not be signing any contract with the Reds when this on expires."

We are going to lose some quality young arms in favor of trying to get our monies worth out of old/injured arms that have had all of spring training and 3/4's of a season to show what they have got.

[BEETTLEBUG]

TRUE

[JLB5]

With the exception of June, he has got progressively worse. He had an ERA of 4.93 in April, 5.56 in May, 7.45 in July, and 9.00 in August. I can barely wait to see the disastrous September he will have.


Stanton has been streaky like this the last several years. If you look at his splits over the last few seasons, they predict he will have an excellent September.

[texasdave]

Stanton has been streaky like this the last several years. If you look at his splits over the last few seasons, they predict he will have an excellent September.

This phenomenon is known as the 'salary drive'. :)

[Orenda]

Era is an over-rated stat for relievers. Stanton has given up 58 hits in 44 innings. His curve ball is still there but to me its seems its been hard for him to establish his fastball. As he said himself, "im not making excuses, but if I make a good pitch, they foul it off. They're just not missing mistakes." Currently his margin for error is really slim and he has to be on top of his game every time out to be effective. Batters are hitting .315 off him this year. Does anyone know his inherited runners scored numbers or first batter faced? Where can you find those stats?

[texasdave]

According to www.baseball-reference.com He has allowed 14 of 41 runners to score. That is 34%. I think i read the league average is about 30%. So that is slightly above average.
His first-batter-faced numbers look like this.



AB H 2B 3B HR BB IBB K
48 17 3 0 0 4 0 5

HBP SH SF GDP AVE OBP SLG OPS
0 1 1 0 0.354 0.396 0.417 0.813

[Muggerd]

ERA is over-rated for relievers... if the supporting stats like BA against and WHIP are there.

[BLEEDS]

Because he makes too much money. You can't just "cut" a guy like that in MLB. You are stuck with his contract - see Eric Milton.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

[Orenda]

ERA is over-rated for relievers... if the supporting stats like BA against and WHIP are there.

right. Well someone had posted that without five games he would have a sub 3 era. But a reliever can come in and give up a hit and a run, yet still drop his era. I was just curious (as I can't remember exactly) how he performed in other areas. I haven't seen him exibit enough effectiveness to warrant continually calling on him in key situation.

[ThirdBaseCoach]

Pete MacKanin isnt an option? He had more of a hand in not getting the sweep than anyone did. Pulling the starter after 5 innings and less than 70 pitches :dunno:

Muggs, you're kidding right?

Don't fall in love with the pitch count. Analysts use it to make their argument either way. Perhaps Lizzard was gassed and the manager knew that he would get shelled if he trotted him out there again.

There is always more to the decisions made than the average fan knows.

[Muggerd]

Muggs, you're kidding right?

Don't fall in love with the pitch count. Analysts use it to make their argument either way. Perhaps Lizzard was gassed and the manager knew that he would get shelled if he trotted him out there again.

There is always more to the decisions made than the average fan knows.

Mackanin: “I would like to be able to count on those guys (in the bullpen). It’s … you know, once again we’re talking about the bullpen that didn’t do that great of a job, but however, 13 runners on base, we had a chance to blow it open. If we had gotten a lead, Ramirez would have stayed in the game, I wouldn’t have had to muster up some runs in the fifth inning.”


He pulled Ramirez because we had guys on base with 2 outs. Nothing to do with him being tired. I can understand his point but you also have to thing about what you are going to be running out there after you take Elizardo out of there.

[AmarilloRed]

Krivsky signed Stanton to a terrible 2 year deal with an option for a third. We have to live with the ramifications of that. I would dearly love to DFA Stanton, and just eat the contract, but I am not sure that would work. I really would like Stanton to resuscitate his career, but I fear he has nothing else left. I am making the best of a bad situation. If it is acceptable to ridicule Coffey for his 6.04 ERA, why would we not do the same for Stanton's 5.93 . If you truly believe ERA is overrated for relievers, then you should have supported keeping Coffey on the Reds . The truth is that ERA is very important for a reliever.

[redsfanmia]

Krivsky signed Stanton to a terrible 2 year deal with an option for a third. We have to live with the ramifications of that. I would dearly love to DFA Stanton, and just eat the contract, but I am not sure that would work. I really would like Stanton to resuscitate his career, but I fear he has nothing else left. I am making the best of a bad situation. If it is acceptable to ridicule Coffey for his 6.04 ERA, why would we not do the same for Stanton's 5.93 . If you truly believe ERA is overrated for relievers, then you should have supported keeping Coffey on the Reds . The truth is that ERA is very important for a reliever.

One or two bad outings can kill a reliever's ERA, a guy like Stanton doesnt pitch enough to lower his ERA so honestly ERA isnt important with relievers.

[AmarilloRed]

On or two bad appearances can raise your ERA; however Stanton has had a high ERA in 4 of 5 months. I just don't think he can cut it anymore.

[StrikeIndicator]

One or two bad outings can kill a reliever's ERA, a guy like Stanton doesnt pitch enough to lower his ERA so honestly ERA isnt important with relievers.


He has pitched 44 innings in 55 games, that is quite a bit, and one or two bad outtings could be absorded.

However, the truth is that the last 10 outings he has pitched
9 innings
8 runs (of his own,)
12 hits
5 walks
6 K's
vs. Left: .342 vs. Right: .295
I did not bother to look up how many inherited runners have scored, but IMHO that is a very important stat.

[AmarilloRed]

I will answer the original question" Why is Stanton still here?". Stanton is here because we needed bullpen help in the off-season, and Krivsky thought he would be able to help the Reds bullpen. He has helped the Reds at times this year, but I would suggest he is hurting the Reds more right now. That could change in the future, and Krivsky is trying out Guardado, Majewski, and Stanton to see if they will help the Reds in 2008. However, expect a lot of bullpen help to come from Louisville in September, and if the kids do better than Stanton or some of the others, this could be their last year in Cincinnati. I am sure the salary some of these players have is also a factor as to why they are still here. Still, it will be interesting what effect the last 2 months have on the look of our bullpen next year.

[GoReds33]

I think I heard he passed through waivers. Maybe someome would give some future considerations for him and maybe 2 mil.