So have we seen enough of Dumatrait yet?

[reds44]

He's bad.

Just send him back to AAA please.

[AmarilloRed]

Who would you have as the fourth starter in his place? I am not against it as I don't think he is a major league starter, but I don't think we have anyone else at AAA.

[reds44]

Who would you have as the fourth starter in his place? I am not against it as I don't think he is a major league starter, but I don't think we have anyone else at AAA.
Matt Belisle is a better option. Alot better option.

Phil Dumatrait is a pitcher with marginal stuff who walks alot of guys. I wonder why he is bad?

[jmac]

He's bad.

Just send him back to AAA please.

Miltonesque :runawaycr

[texasdave]

Hey, the Reds were down 5-0 yesterday. Can lightning strike twice?

[reds44]

Miltonesque :runawaycr
Worse. Alot worse.

[redsfanmia]

Who would you have as the fourth starter in his place? I am not against it as I don't think he is a major league starter, but I don't think we have anyone else at AAA.

But we do have someone in AA.

[kaldaniels]

Rain Delay Question....

Is there anyway the rain comes and wipes that horrible 1st inning away if the game is postoponed???

[kaldaniels]

But we do have someone in AA.

We got someone in Sarasota too, but haven't heard a thing about him lately...strange.

[Screwball]

It was pretty apparent PD was going to get lit up. He misses the strike zone way too much, and when he does hit it, far too often it's up and over the heart of the plate.

Like I said in a previous thread, he needs to be moved to the 'pen to see what he can do. Maybe when he doesn't have to worry about pacing himself, he can rear back and hit mid 90s on the gun. Couple that with his hard slider, and he may just become a useful LOOGY. Then again, McCann, a LHH, just jacked a grand salami off of him, so what do I know...

[captainmorgan07]

i've seen enough give me anybody not named saarloos, dumatrait or belisle. Heck run chris welsh out there i don't care aslong as it's not those 3.

[Blue]

I thought this guy was supposed to stick in the rotation and we just needed to give him a chance?

[kaldaniels]

Seriously...is there anyway the rain washes all 8 of those runs away...I don't know the rules of rainouts.

[redsfanmia]

I dont want to rail on the guy but at this point it looks like the Red Sox got the better of the Bichette trade.

[reds44]

Seriously...is there anyway the rain washes all 8 of those runs away...I don't know the rules of rainouts.
If we don't play 5, yes.

[TC81190]

I dont want to rail on the guy but at this point it looks like the Red Sox got the better of the Bichette trade.


*Scott Williamson

[GoReds44]

i've seen enough give me anybody not named saarloos, dumatrait or belisle. Heck run chris welsh out there i don't care aslong as it's not those 3.

:D That is going in my sig if you don't mind:beerme:

[Krawhitham]

I dont want to rail on the guy but at this point it looks like the Red Sox got the better of the Bichette trade.

August 31, 2000: Dante Bichette traded by the Cincinnati Reds to the Boston Red Sox for Chris Reitsma and John Curtice (minors).

[Screwball]

Seriously...is there anyway the rain washes all 8 of those runs away...I don't know the rules of rainouts.

e) If a game is called before it has become a regulation game, the umpire shall declare it “No Game.”

I'm not sure if this rule was recently amended, but there ya go.

[kaldaniels]

e) If a game is called before it has become a regulation game, the umpire shall declare it “No Game.”

I'm not sure if this rule was recently amended, but there ya go.

Oh please....(thanks everyone)

[redsfanmia]

August 31, 2000: Dante Bichette traded by the Cincinnati Reds to the Boston Red Sox for Chris Reitsma and John Curtice (minors).

Oops i got my trades wrong.

[TC81190]

And to answer the the starter question, 4th could be Ramirez, Belisle, or Livingston and Homer as 5th.

[jmac]

Oops i got my trades wrong.
That is okay, we did have to give up someone to get him !

[reds44]

And to answer the the starter question, 4th could be Ramirez, Belisle, or Livingston and Homer as 5th.
I don't think Homer pitches anywhere until 2008, unless he comes back in September for the Reds pitching out of the pen.

[TC81190]

I don't think Homer pitches anywhere until 2008, unless he comes back in September for the Reds pitching out of the pen.

Oh, well this year it doesn't really matter. High draft choices are (potentially) fun.

[kaldaniels]

I just thought of this...does Hammy get a pass on that flyball he misjudged in the 1st...it looked like a tough one.

[Degenerate39]

There are better pitchers here on Redszone than Dumatrait

[AmarilloRed]

I would imagine we will shortly see Belisle again.

[REDblooded]

I was really hoping the Reds would package Dumatrait in some sort of deal before the deadline..............too late now.

[jnwohio]

Matt Maloney (the guy they got for Lohse) has looked very solid at AA. He is a college experienced guy (23 years old) and not a youngster like Johnny Cueto or HomerB. Maybe they should give him a try.

I don't think we see HomerB again this year unless he is totally healthy and also has some endurance built back up. However hopefully those two will be true by mid september and we will see him for two or three starts.

[Muggerd]

I think im done watching dumatrait




starting atleast

[UPRedsFan]

Marty says Dumatrait to start Saturday. Ugh

[Degenerate39]

We made the same thread at the same time what are the odds

[UPRedsFan]

We made the same thread at the same time what are the odds

About as good as Dumatrait pitching 6 strong innings on Saturday

[REDblooded]

oh wow! So the Reds finally stopped playing for 07? I guess we can expect Votto and Bruce up at any time now!

[ChatterRed]

Why not re-sign Michalak and let him give up 12 runs. It's about the same thing. This is ridiculous. So much for yanking Arroyo after 80 pitches to save him for Saturday. This is just plain stupid. Are there no better options?

[AccordinglyReds]

I'd rather have Dumatrait, than Santos.

[ChatterRed]

I'd rather have Jeff Keppinger pitch than Dumatrait. That's how little I think of the Duma.

[UPRedsFan]

Let's hope Shearn can go 6 tomorrow or the bullpen will be on fumes Sunday

[howyoufreelin]

I'd rather have Dumatrait, than Santos.

My thoughts exactly.

[reds44]

LOL

Why?

[Natty Redlocks]

Woo hoo! Dr. Dume!!!

[BEETTLEBUG]

BIG MISTAKE!!!!!!!!!!

[ChatterRed]

I'm thinking about starting a few more Dumatrait threads.

[lo ryder]

I am certainly happy the winning traditon is being restored to this once fine organization. Thanks Bob while still have a glimmer of hope.

[mroby85]

how did he get re-called? i mean seriously.

[Hey Meat]

Ouch, This doesn't look good

[Muggerd]

how did he get re-called? i mean seriously.

September 1st

[mroby85]

his ERA has 4 digits!

[AmarilloRed]

Fee free to add to my "Is there no better option than Dumatrait" thread. Obviously there is no better option, or he would not be pitching Saturday.

[Muggerd]

I wish Phil could get his control problems fixed because hes got the stuff to succeed.

[fielder's choice]

Dumatrait has no stuff whatsoever, that's why he is afraid to throw strikes

[Muggerd]

Dumatrait has no stuff whatsoever, that's why he is afraid to throw strikes

Have you watched him pitch? He has pretty darn good stuff just no control of any of the pitches.

[OesterPoster]

Have you watched him pitch? He has pretty darn good stuff just no control of any of the pitches.

I think you could say that about my stuff, Reds44's stuff, Amarillo's stuff, and just about any poster on this board. Cripes, I can throw a splitter, curve, and slider...I just haven't got the slightest clue where they'll end up.

[Muggerd]

I think you could say that about my stuff, Reds44's stuff, Amarillo's stuff, and just about any poster on this board. Cripes, I can throw a splitter, curve, and slider...I just haven't got the slightest clue where they'll end up.

He has good movement on his pitches its just about locating them. You guys might be able to throw those pitches but im goin to guess they are going to be at 60 MPH and break 1 inch.

He has a pretty good fastball as well. If he never locates his stuff hes never going to be good but to say that he doesnt have the stuff to be good is just wrong in my opinion.

[AmarilloRed]

What puzzles me is when Mackanin said Dumatrait was not ready for the MLB level on August 21st, but we are supposed to believe he has gotten ready in 10 days?

[Muggerd]

What puzzles me is when Mackanin said Dumatrait was not ready for the MLB level on August 21st, but we are supposed to believe he has gotten ready in 10 days?

Who is left to pitch? We either run santos, gosling, or saarloos out there if its not Dumatrait. Its a crap shoot any ways because more or likely we are going to use 2 or more of those guys on the same day no matter who starts.

[Dunner44]

Part of the problem is the younger guys, Cuteo and Maloney pitched one or two nights ago, so they are out of the running. And there's no need to trot them out there and let them get beat up, starting psychological issues. Lets just tap the guy who's already gone psycho because of big-league-suck factor.

[Old NDN]

I hope Cueto, Maloney, etc. will be brought up to at least get some experience. It's been well documented that Smoltz, Glavine and others took their lumps and learned on the job as young MLB pitchers. Why is the Reds organization so reluctant? It's obvious whatever their plan has been in the past hasn't worked. Let's give them a chance. It definitely can't be much worse than what we have been throwing (and recycling) out there lately.

[baseballguy]

You guys are all brutal! Has everyone forgotten about the game he pitched against the Dodgers. 6 innings, 2 runs, winning the game when he went out. You can't judge him on 3 bad starts - give him a chance to get familiar with the next level. Now is the time to let him get the "bugs out" He can do it, or he wouldn't even be given the chance.

[AmarilloRed]

I saw that game on Gameday. He was hit hard all over the place, and got some balls hit hard at defenders. I do agree that a lot of us are brutal.:D

[Muggerd]

Phil has sucked this year no debating that. Until he fixes his control problem hes going to continue to suck.

[AmarilloRed]

4 innings, only 1 earned run. He has already exceeded my expectations. He made up for it the next inning, when he gave up a 2-run double to Edmonds on his 98th pitch. Pete wanted him to go 5 innings, but he wasn't capable.

[AccordinglyReds]

Not too bad of an outing for Dumatrait, all things considered.

He got what he needed for the DP ball, but it came back to chase him.

I can't say I am mad.

[Muggerd]

He looked pretty decent tonight

[AmarilloRed]

Phil Dumatrait is scheduled to make a spot start Sunday in place of Belisle. I will cross all my fingers and hope he doesn't hurt us too much.

[Moosie52]

At least the Reds aren't still in the hunt.

[Will M]

Phil Dumatrait is scheduled to make a spot start Sunday in place of Belisle.

:thumbdown

Heck, I'd rather see 'reliever day' than Dumatrait. You could go with Coffey for 2 , Majik for 2, etc.

[redsupport]

what a piece of flotsam dumatrait is

[HokieRed]

One thing was slightly encouraging in Dumatrait's last start. He threw 66 strikes in his 98 pitches, which has to be by far the best control he's shown.

[texasdave]

I really don't have a problem with running Dumatrait out there every fifth day for the rest of the season. The team is out of contention so what does it matter? Since they have been stretching Salmon out down in Louisville - with three consecutive three-inning outings, I might even consider giving him a start or two. This is the month for turning over rocks in search of starting pitchers.

[redsupport]

even worse than andy larkin, rick krivda, or Johnson from last year. almost as effective as michaluk or mel behney

[ochoa30]

Yea, and although we got out of it, whats up with dunn? Its plays like that that one that make people hate him. Ive never seen a ball played worse. Medium flyball to left and he allows the runner to go to third. Get your head in the game. I guess its hard when you know you have no chance to win with dumatrait going.

[redsupport]

dumatrait reminds me of a cross between Ted Weiand and Howi Nunn with a sprinkling of Brad pennington and Rosario Rodriguez tossed in

[jnwohio]

even worse than andy larkin, rick krivda, or Johnson from last year. almost as effective as michaluk or mel behney


Dumatrait is beyond pathetic. Can he be optioned down even though it is past the roster expansion date? If so I would do it because he doesn't deserve to be making $2K for every game is is on the active MLB roster between now and the end of the season.

Shearn has been their 3rd most effective starter. I guess the fact he came into this mess today means we are officially looking at next year and seeing how he does as a long man. Or maybe they figure with the off day tomorrow they can use him for an inning or two here and still bring him back in the rotation.

[redsfanmia]

Yea, and although we got out of it, whats up with dunn? Its plays like that that one that make people hate him. Ive never seen a ball played worse. Medium flyball to left and he allows the runner to go to third. Get your head in the game. I guess its hard when you know you have no chance to win with dumatrait going.

Thats why Dunn has to go.

[foxfire123]

Wow. what a way to take the heart out of your team immediately Dumatrait.

What a waste of salary and a roster spot......

Foxfire123

[AmarilloRed]

0 IP, 5 hits, 4 runs, 4 earned, a 15.00 ERA, and 3 hr given up. It is time for the Reds to ask themselves what purpose is served by having Dumatrait sent out there to be killed. I would hope they would be kind and DFA him after this game. He is not young any more, and it is clear he can not handle major league hitters. I am sure Ramirez would do better than this. He was not impressive either, but at least he can pitch 1/3 of an inning. I am not sure if we can continue to call people up after the minor league season ends, though.

[Degenerate39]

Today's game answers the question

[ChatterRed]

I don't know. I think we should give him a few more starts to see if he can get ANYONE out. Atleast, that's probably what the Reds brass is thinking. No reason to give Cueto or Maloney a shot. Let's keep hoping the human batting tee turns into John Smoltz.

[HokieRed]

I've seen a lot of RZers saying Dumatrait is a good substitute for Germano. Maybe it's time to give up on that idea.

[BEETTLEBUG]

True Give Up On Him.

[AmarilloRed]

Mackanin said a decision on Dumatrait's future could come this week.

"We're going to discuss it," Mackanin said. "I don't think he's done. He has a future here. It's a learning process. We'll discuss what to do for the rest of this year. He has the stuff to be successful.

I copied this from tonight's post-game comments on Reds.com. I am not sure what to make of these comments.

[redsupport]

yeah hes a great pitcher

[George Foster]

Mackanin said a decision on Dumatrait's future could come this week.

"We're going to discuss it," Mackanin said. "I don't think he's done. He has a future here. It's a learning process. We'll discuss what to do for the rest of this year. He has the stuff to be successful.

I copied this from tonight's post-game comments on Reds.com. I am not sure what to make of these comments.


"He has the stuff to be successful"....at a car lot.... Give him his walking papers.

[ChatterRed]

See if you can trade him to the Mets or Braves without laughing.

[redsupport]

can he be traded for santana?

[NeilHamburger]

I have him penciled in as next year's opening day starter. The beer vendors will be very happy. In truth he reminds me of a young Jeff Shaw with a Steve Carlton like slider. He just needs a little time, run him out every fifth day and see what happens.

[RiSK]

For what it's worth; and it may not be a lot, Reds.com has him getting the nod on Friday (http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/news/probable_pitchers.jsp?c_id=cin). We'll see if it holds true.

Personally, I'd not give him another shot. Give it to Sarloos or Gosling. Surely one has to be better than Dumatrait...

[redsupport]

yeah I think he is great, he is 23, in ten years he has a decent chance to be 33

[redsupport]

From mcjerk Dumatrait has a future ahead of him, nice prophesy there. Actually I love Dumatrait because he tied Jeff Austin and gave the former royal some great publicity.

[AmarilloRed]

We have- I am not sure Reds management has yet after that comment last night.

[AmarilloRed]

The quote also mentioned that the Reds would discuss his future. I will wait and see what they decide.

[Reverend Doo-Rag]

I was looking at baseballreference.com's worst starts of the day stats, and according to their formula, 4 pitchers (including some big names) all had worse stat lines than Dumatrait.

Tm Opp IP H R ER BB SO HR GmSc Pit ERA
PDumatrait L CIN MIL 0 5 4 4 0 0 3 24 12 15.0
FHernandez W SEA DET 5 10 7 6 3 4 1 22 112 4.17
STrachsel L CHC PIT 2 6 6 6 1 0 0 19 47 4.78
DWillis L FLA PHI 3 7 7 7 2 3 2 18 75 5.27
JBonderman L DET SEA 1.1 7 6 6 2 1 0 15 45 5.01

So it is possible and highly probable to be worse than 0 innings pitched with 4 earnies.

[redsupport]

great point, maybe dumatrait should start some additional games! I think he is a very meritorious pitcher

[Degenerate39]

Thats why Dunn has to go.

Goodness a Phil Dumatrait thread but still posts in the thread about Dunn.

[durl]

I was looking at baseballreference.com's worst starts of the day stats, and according to their formula, 4 pitchers (including some big names) all had worse stat lines than Dumatrait.

Tm Opp IP H R ER BB SO HR GmSc Pit ERA
PDumatrait L CIN MIL 0 5 4 4 0 0 3 24 12 15.0
FHernandez W SEA DET 5 10 7 6 3 4 1 22 112 4.17
STrachsel L CHC PIT 2 6 6 6 1 0 0 19 47 4.78
DWillis L FLA PHI 3 7 7 7 2 3 2 18 75 5.27
JBonderman L DET SEA 1.1 7 6 6 2 1 0 15 45 5.01

So it is possible and highly probable to be worse than 0 innings pitched with 4 earnies.

I think it's Dumatrait's trend and the fact that he gave up 3 HR to start the game that makes his appearance the worst of the day. Pitchers can have bad days, but only 4 in the history of the game (if I recall correctly) have given up 3 HR to the first 3 batters of the game.

[TexRed]

Dumatrait's got the talent. It's easy to sit here and criticize, but how many people here have gone beyond high school ball or neighborhood softball. He just needs to settle down and make good, smart pitches. Part of his strength is pitching inside, but that is becoming a lost art. There's nothing left of this season, so I see no harm in letting him get some work.

[redsupport]

oh i get it because we have not played major league ball, dumatrait is a fine pitcher compared to the ceo of a company

[TexRed]

oh i get it because we have not played major league ball, dumatrait is a fine pitcher compared to the ceo of a company

What a neat juxtapositon! All I am saying is that what quals do we have to judge? It's easy to throw stones, especially if no one is throwing them back at you. Neither of us has a dog in the hunt, unless you are a managing partner in Reds baseball. Granted his record is something far less than desired at this point, but give the kid credit for how far he has gone in this game. I would venture to say much farther than any/most of us have ever dreamt.

[StrikeIndicator]

Dumatrait's got the talent. It's easy to sit here and criticize, but how many people here have gone beyond high school ball or neighborhood softball. He just needs to settle down and make good, smart pitches. Part of his strength is pitching inside, but that is becoming a lost art. There's nothing left of this season, so I see no harm in letting him get some work.

Non existant if David Ross is catching and there is a runner on 1st base. Ross will never set up inside, he is working way too hard on the stat that keeps him in MLB, throwing out the runner.
How has he been so successful? he sets up and calls for outside fastballs. The only problem this year has been that the hitters also know what he is doing and they just sit back and wait on it. Going, going, gone!!!! Another HR for (YFINB) __________!!!!!!!!!!!!

A very trackable stat, Yes, sometimes he throws the guy out at secound (around 4 out of 10 times) but what they do not track is how many doubles, RBI's and dingers he gives up doing this.
He seems more concerned with him looking good than calling a game that will blend with the pitchers strenghts and hitters weaknesses and get the guy out AT THE PLATE .

[texasdave]

Non existant if David Ross is catching and there is a runner on 1st base. Ross will never set up inside, he is working way too hard on the stat that keeps him in MLB, throwing out the runner.
How has he been so successful? he sets up and calls for outside fastballs. The only problem this year has been that the hitters also know what he is doing and they just sit back and wait on it. Going, going, gone!!!! Another HR for (YFINB) __________!!!!!!!!!!!!

A very trackable stat, Yes, sometimes he throws the guy out at secound (around 4 out of 10 times) but what they do not track is how many doubles, RBI's and dingers he gives up doing this.
He seems more concerned with him looking good than calling a game that will blend with the pitchers strenghts and hitters weaknesses and get the guy out AT THE PLATE .

The numbers for the year don't seem to bear this out. Here is a chart for how Reds' catchers have fared in 2007 as far as XBHs, HRs and SLG%. Ross has done better than the other three catchers in every category.



Catcher PA XBH HR PA/XBH PA/HR SLG%
Ross 3308 270 84 12.3 39.4 0.432
Valentn 1788 181 73 9.9 24.5 0.498
Moeller 393 40 11 9.8 35.7 0.491
Jorgnsn 152 17 8 8.9 19.0 0.518

Team 5641 508 176 11.1 32.1 0.459


The last three columns is what we are looking at. In the columns PA/XBH and PA/HR, the higher the number the better. As far as SLG% is concerned, the lower the number the better.

Even if Ross sets up outside far too often with men on base, his numbers still outshine the numbers of Valentin, Moeller or Jorgensen.

[TexRed]

Neat stuff Dave. Quick question.....what is the relationship with increased number of chances? As the chances increase, it appears that there is a direct relationship with the other numbers. Unlike having a 50 % chance for heads or tails on every flip of the coin.

[AmarilloRed]

• Friday: Reds (TBD) at Brewers (Jeff Suppan, 9-11, 4.74), 8:05 p.m. ET

It seems the Reds are having second thoughts about starting Dumatrait on Friday. I copied that from the schedule on Reds.com

[baseballguy]

TexRed - Thank you - I agree, we cannot give up on Dumatrait. Let him get some more innings in - what can it hurt at this point. You all are ridiculous giving your stupid opionions about his ability. I guess most of you could do a better job - NOT!!!

[redsupport]

yeah he is a fine prospect, I wish the other reds newcomers could perform as well as Dumatrait. Other teams are probably green with envy , jealous of the Reds success with Dumatrait

[texasdave]

It would be an understatement to say that Phil Dumatrait has not looked promising in his six starts to date. That said, a well-run organization should not make a decision based on six starts. The very fact that they have invested several years in coaching and advancing Dumatrait makes reaching a conclusion based upon 18 innings of work laughable, IMO. It should be accepted that the team is absolutely out of any hopes of contending this year, which means the Reds should stay-the-course with PD. It wouldn't be objectionable to give Salmon a start or two. It is sad , but true, that September 2007 is a time for auditioning starting pitchers for next year. Cincinnati Reds in the new millenium: falter, rinse, repeat.

[TheOnlyRedsFan]

He is scheduled to start Friday. Are you kidding?

[Degenerate39]

He is scheduled to start Friday. Are you kidding?

What do they have to lose at this point

[INRedsFan]

What do they have to lose at this point

What do we have to gain? Sunday was very painful to watch as a fan and for the players too. He has an ERA of 15, his walk/K ratio is upside down and has allowed 30 runs in 18 innings.

[AmarilloRed]

He is simply not ready for the majors yet. It may be that he will be a different pitcher with a couple of years of development.

[Degenerate39]

What do we have to gain? Sunday was very painful to watch as a fan and for the players too. He has an ERA of 15, his walk/K ratio is upside down and has allowed 30 runs in 18 innings.

Higher draft pick

[redsfanmia]

Higher draft pick

They had their shot at the #1 pick and then came Pete.

[AmarilloRed]

The decision is made. It will be Saarloos on Saturday. I am not sure he is an upgrade though. We will have to wait and see.

[redsupport]

saarlossis really good although I would rather see Dan Dumoulin