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View Full Version : 8/21/07 vs Braves



Matt700wlw
08-21-2007, 04:14 PM
Hopper cf
Keppinger ss
Griffey rf
Phillips 2b
Dunn lf
Encarnacion 3b
Cantu 1b
Jorgensen c
Livingston p



Escobar ss
Diaz lf
L. Jones 3b
Teixeira 1b
Francoeur rf
A. Jones cf
McCann c
Johnson 2b
Reyes p

dabvu2498
08-21-2007, 04:15 PM
What kind of odds could you have gotten in April on that being a Reds lineup in 2007?

Heath
08-21-2007, 04:48 PM
What kind of odds could you have gotten in April on that being a Reds lineup in 2007?

I'm thinking about a Powerball ticket.

RedsManRick
08-21-2007, 05:14 PM
What does Dunn have to do to move above BP in the lineup?

Want a big sample size? Dunn is a better for his career: .897 OPS to .705
Want a more recent sample? Dunn is better this year: .929 to .782
Want even more recent? Dunn is better since Aug 1: 1.104 to .724
Want even MORE recent? Dunn is better in the last week: 1.415 to 1.007

Oh wait, it's just because we're facing a lefty. Riiiiiiight. That's why he's behind Junior...

I get it that lineup order is fairly insignificant. I just wish I understood the logic.

Matt700wlw
08-21-2007, 07:22 PM
Another bunt single for Hopper

Big Klu
08-21-2007, 07:23 PM
I would have considered starting Valentin, even against the LHP.

Another bunt single for Hopper!

OnBaseMachine
08-21-2007, 07:27 PM
Ridiculous strike two call on Dunn.

BCubb2003
08-21-2007, 07:29 PM
What kind of odds could you have gotten in April on that being a Reds lineup in 2007?

Most people figured Griffey would be traded by now.

Matt700wlw
08-21-2007, 07:29 PM
Most people figured Griffey would be traded by now.

Or Dunn

Ltlabner
08-21-2007, 07:30 PM
Another bunt single for Hopper!

He should try hitting it to the right side to try to defeat teams from setting up against his bunts.

:evil:

Matt700wlw
08-21-2007, 07:31 PM
Livingston isn't fooling a living, breathing soul so far...

CTA513
08-21-2007, 07:32 PM
Saarloos should get some work in tonight.

Ltlabner
08-21-2007, 07:32 PM
Welsh extoling the virtues of walks....

Serriously.

Unfortunatley, he was talking about a Braves player.

Matt700wlw
08-21-2007, 07:35 PM
Saarloos should get some work in tonight.

It would seem conceivable...

Ltlabner
08-21-2007, 07:36 PM
Reyes needs to spend some time in the cage practicing his bunting.

Ltlabner
08-21-2007, 07:38 PM
Uh...didn't I see this movie last night?

Matt700wlw
08-21-2007, 07:38 PM
This is a mis-match....the Reds aren't even in the same world as a team like the Braves.

KronoRed
08-21-2007, 07:39 PM
I really hate the Braves

Kc61
08-21-2007, 07:41 PM
This is a mis-match....the Reds aren't even in the same world as a team like the Braves.

I think the league is catching up to Dr. Livingston.

Without Lohse, the starting rotation requires three days of rain to be successful.

OnBaseMachine
08-21-2007, 07:41 PM
Another nice play by Edwin.

Ltlabner
08-21-2007, 07:42 PM
Another nice play by Edwin.

Very nice play by Edwin. Good stop and he took his time to make a good throw even though the baserunner was motoring.

Nice strech by Cantu to real it in.

Matt700wlw
08-21-2007, 07:42 PM
I think the league is catching up to Dr. Livingston.

Without Lohse, the starting rotation requires three days of rain to be successful.

These can also be good things too, with Livingston and Dumatrait....they learn something about these guys now as opposed to March. You can assess where they are for next year.

As Mackanin said recently, auditions.


So speaking of auditions...where's Joey Votto? If that means Hatteberg has to take a seat because of the Cantu/Votto auditions...he knows how this works, and he wouldn't complain. ''

If Votto comes up and looks lost, then you can always pick up Hatteberg's option and give Votto more time.

OnBaseMachine
08-21-2007, 07:46 PM
So speaking of auditions...where's Joey Votto?

He's a AAAA player.:rolleyes:

Matt700wlw
08-21-2007, 07:47 PM
He's a AAAA player.:rolleyes:

I'd like to find out.

If that's how they feel, and aren't going to give him a chance to prove he's not...then trade him.

Cyclone792
08-21-2007, 07:47 PM
These can also be good things too, with Livingston and Dumatrait....they learn something about these guys now as opposed to March. You can assess where they are for next year.

As Mackanin said recently, auditions.

If this organization is seriously contemplating putting Livingston and/or Dumatrait in the rotation next season, then you might as well expect another 90 losses.

Both those guys are what I term "6th starters" for organizations. Stash them in AAA and use them only in emergency situations when you've got actual major league caliber starting pitchers riding the disabled list. If either of them are among your best five starting pitchers, you're in serious trouble from the get go.

Ltlabner
08-21-2007, 07:48 PM
He's a AAAA player.:rolleyes:

Was that in a news story or just someone remember hearing it?

I think I read that on RZ yesterday (maybe) but can't remember what the original source was.

Big Klu
08-21-2007, 07:52 PM
He's a AAAA player.:rolleyes:

Maybe he is. The last home-grown 1B prospect the Reds had who was this highly-touted was Reggie Jefferson.

For the record, I think Votto can play. But it won't hurt him to finish the season at Louisville, then join the Reds in September.

Matt700wlw
08-21-2007, 07:56 PM
They finally get Hopper on one of his bunts

OnBaseMachine
08-21-2007, 07:59 PM
Was that in a news story or just someone remember hearing it?

I think I read that on RZ yesterday (maybe) but can't remember what the original source was.

C. Trent Rosecrans said this yesterday:

it looks like hatterberg will be around for another year... the reds brass, from what i hear, isn't too high on votto. they see him as an aaaa type player

Ltlabner
08-21-2007, 08:00 PM
C. Trent Rosecrans said this yesterday:

it looks like hatterberg will be around for another year... the reds brass, from what i hear, isn't too high on votto. they see him as an aaaa type player

That's where it was. Thanks...my brain was frozen.

Matt700wlw
08-21-2007, 08:00 PM
Phillips -- Griffey walks and he hacks on the first pitch popping it up.

That's why you don't bat him cleanup....and that's ok. He can be a superstar without batting 4th.


But what do I know?

OnBaseMachine
08-21-2007, 08:02 PM
Dunn walks to drive in a run.

edabbs44
08-21-2007, 08:03 PM
C. Trent Rosecrans said this yesterday:

it looks like hatterberg will be around for another year... the reds brass, from what i hear, isn't too high on votto. they see him as an aaaa type player

Then they should trade him immediately.

nate
08-21-2007, 08:05 PM
Then they should trade him immediately.

C. Trent has a no-trade clause.

Matt700wlw
08-21-2007, 08:05 PM
Edwin!

Tom Servo
08-21-2007, 08:06 PM
C. Trent Rosecrans said this yesterday:

it looks like hatterberg will be around for another year... the reds brass, from what i hear, isn't too high on votto. they see him as an aaaa type player
what exactly are the reds brass basing this on?

MrCinatit
08-21-2007, 08:06 PM
C. Trent Rosecrans said this yesterday:

it looks like hatterberg will be around for another year... the reds brass, from what i hear, isn't too high on votto. they see him as an aaaa type player

You always like to see a club make a decision on a player before he even has a chance to prove himself in the bigs. The sure signs of a successful organization is holding onto those old guys who have taken you all the way to fifth place, and leaving the youngsters who need a chance to learn down in the minors.

Nice bit of hitting by Edwin. And, wow, Cox has a quick hook. I kind of like that.

Matt700wlw
08-21-2007, 08:06 PM
C. Trent has a no-trade clause.

He's a free agent after the year, also...

OnBaseMachine
08-21-2007, 08:07 PM
I think the Reds are dead wrong on Joey Votto. The guy hits the ball with authority to all fields and has great plate discipline. I'd say nearly half of his homeruns this year have been to the opposite field. I see him being a left-handed Kevin Youkilis type hitter with a little more strikeouts and maybe slightly better power down the road.

Matt700wlw
08-21-2007, 08:09 PM
Cantu!!

Tom Servo
08-21-2007, 08:09 PM
Cantu!

Ltlabner
08-21-2007, 08:09 PM
Shame to see the aged Bobby Cox so slow to pull a struggling pitcher.

nate
08-21-2007, 08:10 PM
Cantu showed the ball his gameday picture and lept away with aplomb.

Big Klu
08-21-2007, 08:10 PM
He can't knock in the go-ahead run!

CANTU! :D

nate
08-21-2007, 08:10 PM
He's a free agent after the year, also...

He's had a good year. He'll probably catch on with Detroit or Atlanta.

Tom Servo
08-21-2007, 08:12 PM
He's had a good year. He'll probably catch on with Detroit or Atlanta.
Maybe he'll take a discount to go to KC.

BCubb2003
08-21-2007, 08:16 PM
Jorge Cantu see?

oneupper
08-21-2007, 08:18 PM
Nice Play by Kepp.

edabbs44
08-21-2007, 08:23 PM
You always like to see a club make a decision on a player before he even has a chance to prove himself in the bigs. The sure signs of a successful organization is holding onto those old guys who have taken you all the way to fifth place, and leaving the youngsters who need a chance to learn down in the minors.

Exactly...and if they think he really is that, it's better to look to get value for him before they turn him into a 26 year old AAA guy with a few cups of coffee in the show.

Matt700wlw
08-21-2007, 08:32 PM
Another stellar job by Bobby Livingston holding a lead...

Matt700wlw
08-21-2007, 08:33 PM
Also a stellar job by Dunn playing that ball...

MrCinatit
08-21-2007, 08:34 PM
Give Dunn an "assist" on one of those runs.

Matt700wlw
08-21-2007, 08:34 PM
Saarloos warming up

Matt700wlw
08-21-2007, 08:35 PM
Next.

Livingston doesn't have it, at least at this point...

edabbs44
08-21-2007, 08:35 PM
Saarloos warming up

Fireworks night at the old ballpark.

CTA513
08-21-2007, 08:36 PM
Some more of that good pitching tonight.

MrCinatit
08-21-2007, 08:36 PM
Sure could have used that quick Bobby Cox trigger finger a lot earlier than this.

edabbs44
08-21-2007, 08:36 PM
Next.

Livingston doesn't have it, at least at this point...

Not many on the staff have "it".

Cyclone792
08-21-2007, 08:37 PM
Give Dunn an "assist" on one of those runs.

Not anymore. Those runs would have all scored anyway on McCann's bomb.

The Livingston honeymoon is crashing the train.

http://www.moonbattery.com/archives/train_wreck.jpg

Matt700wlw
08-21-2007, 08:38 PM
Majewski in...I may have been wrong about Saarloos warming up

Matt700wlw
08-21-2007, 08:40 PM
Not many on the staff have "it".

Part of the problem...is they run the same type of pitchers out there every night.

A staff mostly junk ball pitchers with average stuff at best doesn't exactly leave much for the other team to adjust to...


Harang, Burton, Bray, Arroyo, and Weathers could be considered exceptions. Harang is a horse, he throws hard, locates well, has good stuff, and has a deceiving delivery. Burton can throw heat and mix in off-spead stuff, Bray is a lefty, with a funky delivery with good stuff, and throws decently hard....Arroyo, when on, has great movement and nasty offspeed stuff, and Stormy doesn't have great stuff, but he knows how to use it effectively, and get people out. The ONLY time Stanton is effective is if his curve ball is curving...other than that, he just gets lit up like a fire cracker.

Everybody else on this staff is basically the same....junk, average at best stuff, average at best location and movement.

They need to assemble a different arsenal, with different style of pitchers. Not everybody can be the same. Some more hard throwers couldn't hurt either....having 1 in there isn't enough.

Hopefully Salmon can get his control controlled...because he can be effective.

CTA513
08-21-2007, 08:42 PM
Next.

Livingston doesn't have it, at least at this point...



"You can't throw the ball with your left hand if your left hand is on your throat. You can't do both."

Matt700wlw
08-21-2007, 08:44 PM
:phillips:

:jump:

MrCinatit
08-21-2007, 08:44 PM
Phillips slowly sneaking up on Junior and Dunn

Eric_Davis
08-21-2007, 08:44 PM
You da man, Brandon!

Eric_Davis
08-21-2007, 08:46 PM
Part of the problem...is they run the same type of pitchers out there every night.

A staff mostly junk ball pitchers with average stuff at best doesn't exactly leave much for the other team to adjust to...


Harang, Burton, Bray, Arroyo, and Weathers could be considered exceptions. Harang is a horse, he throws hard, locates well, has good stuff, and has a deceiving delivery. Burton can throw heat and mix in off-spead stuff, Bray is a lefty, with a funky delivery with good stuff, and throws decently hard....Arroyo, when on, has great movement and nasty offspeed stuff, and Stormy doesn't have great stuff, but he knows how to use it effectively, and get people out. The ONLY time Stanton is effective is if his curve ball is curving...other than that, he just gets lit up like a fire cracker.

Everybody else on this staff is basically the same....junk, average at best stuff, average at best location and movement.

They need to assemble a different arsenal, with different style of pitchers.

Hopefully, one of our Left-handed bats can generate through a trade a legitimate #3 starter. Keep in mind that a solid #3 starter's ERA will be in the high 3's.

Tom Servo
08-21-2007, 08:48 PM
Jorge Cantu laughs at the simplicity of National League baseball.

Matt700wlw
08-21-2007, 08:49 PM
More Cantu for you!

Kc61
08-21-2007, 08:49 PM
Jorge Cantu laughs at the simplicity of National League baseball.

Cantu doesn't do OBP. But he does RBI.

Matt700wlw
08-21-2007, 08:50 PM
Cantu doesn't do OBP. But he does RBI.

I dig the RBI :D

Matt700wlw
08-21-2007, 08:52 PM
Belhorn's batting .100 :laugh:

Tom Servo
08-21-2007, 09:06 PM
kepp NEARLY took one in a very precarious place...

Big Klu
08-21-2007, 09:06 PM
Kepp just got hit in the...in the...the nether regions!

Matt700wlw
08-21-2007, 09:07 PM
Nice heads up base running by Keppinger!

TOBTTReds
08-21-2007, 09:07 PM
kepp NEARLY took one in a very precarious place...

That one would have HURT. Kepp just saved a possibility of a family.

Big Klu
08-21-2007, 09:07 PM
Good baserunning by Keppinger. Brain cramp by Kelly Johnson.

Matt700wlw
08-21-2007, 09:08 PM
Wow...what an arm by Franceour!

Tom Servo
08-21-2007, 09:08 PM
don't run on Francouer...

Big Klu
08-21-2007, 09:09 PM
Bad idea by Mark Berry to send Kepp.

Cyclone792
08-21-2007, 09:10 PM
Nice piece of hitting by Phillips there.

Awful piece of third base coaching by Mark Berry there, especially when there was only one out. I'd take my chances with 2nd and 3rd, one out, and Dunn at the plate who's apparently getting intentionally walked.

Matt700wlw
08-21-2007, 09:10 PM
Ummm...ouch.

Big Klu
08-21-2007, 09:11 PM
Now Edwin gets hit!

Someone had better get plunked--either tonight or in the next couple of days.

Matt700wlw
08-21-2007, 09:12 PM
Now Edwin gets hit!

Someone had better get plunked--either tonight or in the next couple of days.

By this pitching staff? These nice guys?

I doubt any of the Reds pitchers could even leave a mark...

:p:

Tom Servo
08-21-2007, 09:13 PM
Cantu gave that one a nice ride, just not enough.

TOBTTReds
08-21-2007, 09:14 PM
Does Thom realize Cantu is now 5 AB's into his Reds career. Thom is making this out to be a "trade victory" already because he has a few hits. Settle down man.

Larry Schuler
08-21-2007, 09:14 PM
Cantu should have gone for the walk, boost his OBP.

Big Klu
08-21-2007, 09:15 PM
By this pitching staff? These nice guys?

I doubt any of the Reds pitchers could even leave a mark...

:p:

I bet that Burton or Bray could raise a welt.

As for pitchers who would be willing to retaliate, don't count out Harang or--the most logical choice--Arroyo.

Eric_Davis
08-21-2007, 09:15 PM
Where did they hit Edwin and where did they hit Keppinger? and are they OK?

CTA513
08-21-2007, 09:15 PM
Testing Francoeurs arm cost the Reds a run that inning.

Matt700wlw
08-21-2007, 09:15 PM
I bet that Burton or Bray could raise a welt.

As for pitchers who would be willing to retaliate, don't count out Harang or--the most logical choice--Arroyo.

Probably true. However, "dirty play" or not, Arroyo should have retaliated when Mike Cameron crashed into David Ross

Cyclone792
08-21-2007, 09:16 PM
Cantu should have gone for the walk, boost his OBP.

You mean Cantu should have not made an out, thereby boosting his OBP.

And had he done that, another run would have scored and the Reds would still be batting.

OnBaseMachine
08-21-2007, 09:16 PM
Dunn is now up to 76 walks on the season. It looked as if his string of three consecutive seasons of 100+ walks would end this season as he "only" walked 45 times in the first half (355 PA) but has since then walked 31 times in only 156 PA's. He's now on pace to walk right around 100 times.

Eric_Davis
08-21-2007, 09:16 PM
I bet that Burton or Bray could raise a welt.

As for pitchers who would be willing to retaliate, don't count out Harang or--the most logical choice--Arroyo.

Guardado has no problem hitting someone.

Coffey can hit someone without even trying.

Matt700wlw
08-21-2007, 09:17 PM
Bray out...Burton in....double switch also somewhere.

Big Klu
08-21-2007, 09:17 PM
Where did they hit Edwin and where did they hit Keppinger? and are they OK?

Kepp got it a couple of inches from "the nether regions". Edwin got hit in the lower thigh, near the knee. Both appear to be OK.

TOBTTReds
08-21-2007, 09:17 PM
Where did they hit Edwin and where did they hit Keppinger? and are they OK?

Kepp was squaring to bunt, and got hit on the left thigh, just about 2 inches left of his "protection."

EdE got in the left hip/thigh. Both probably will have a charlie horse there tomorrow. But are OK for now atleast.

VR
08-21-2007, 09:18 PM
Regardless of the results with Burton....I really like Bray being pulled. Keep him in situations he is most successful in. No need to get cute.

Eric_Davis
08-21-2007, 09:19 PM
Dunn is now up to 76 walks on the season. It looked as if his string of three consecutive seasons of 100+ walks would end this season as he "only" walked 45 times in the first half (355 PA) but has since then walked 31 times in only 156 PA's. He's now on pace to walk right around 100 times.


I noticed he was increasing the walks a few weeks ago and figured it was an adjustment by the other teams. What is he? 2nd in the National League in 2-out RBI's? Where they thought they could get him out the first half of the year by pitching to him, I think they changed their mind after he kept burning them with that decision.

Matt700wlw
08-21-2007, 09:19 PM
Double switch completes with Hatteberg taking over at 1st base for Cantu.

Burton hits 7th, Hatteberg hits 9th

Big Klu
08-21-2007, 09:20 PM
You mean Cantu should have not made an out, thereby boosting his OBP.

And had he done that, another run would have scored and the Reds would still be batting.

I'm sure he wasn't trying to make an out. He made good contact--it just wasn't quite enough.



The double switch:

Hatteberg to 1B, batting 9th. Cantu out of the game.
Burton pitching, batting 7th.

VR
08-21-2007, 09:22 PM
This is a mis-match....the Reds aren't even in the same world as a team like the Braves.

over on Braves.com they're saying "this is a mis-match....the Braves aren't even in the same world as a team like the Reds." ;)

Matt700wlw
08-21-2007, 09:23 PM
over on Braves.com they're saying "this is a mis-match....the Braves aren't even in the same world as a team like the Reds." ;)

That could be ;)


Looking at recent history, the Reds aren't in the same universe as the Braves :)

Eric_Davis
08-21-2007, 09:26 PM
Kepp was squaring to bunt, and got hit on the left thigh, just about 2 inches left of his "protection."

EdE got in the left hip/thigh. Both probably will have a charlie horse there tomorrow. But are OK for now atleast.

Kepp must have seen his life flash before him.

VR
08-21-2007, 09:27 PM
We Reds fans get spoiled with all these Maj/ Bray back-to-back nasty boy shutdown performances..don't we?

VR
08-21-2007, 09:29 PM
That could be ;)


Looking at recent history, the Reds aren't in the same universe as the Braves :)

16 years isn't that long. :)

Cyclone792
08-21-2007, 09:30 PM
I'm sure he wasn't trying to make an out. He made good contact--it just wasn't quite enough.

Well, I'd hope he wasn't trying to make an out. ;)

I know you know this, Big Klu, but for those who don't ... the point is that everytime somebody takes a shot at on-base percentage, they're forgetting the point that avoiding an out is the single most important thing a batter can do.

The Reds have averaged 5.82 runs per game in the month of August (excluding tonight), and people may not realize it, but they also have a .369 on-base percentage in the month of August.

Don't make outs (OBP), and acquire bases (SLG). The Reds are OPS'ing .842 for the month of August, and they're scoring a truckload of runs this month. The reason is simple: they've done a much better job at not making outs and acquiring bases.

Funny how that works.

PuffyPig
08-21-2007, 09:31 PM
The Braves are good,but after Hudson and Smoltz their starters aren't very good.

Not many teams these days have much depth in the rotation.

Eric_Davis
08-21-2007, 09:31 PM
Even with that out, Hopper is batting .431 in August in 58 at-bats.

I didn't see that coming. I didn't know he was even capable of that type of stretch in 58 at-bats.

Big Klu
08-21-2007, 09:34 PM
Burton is bringing it tonight! He's hit 94 mph on multiple pitches!

Cyclone792
08-21-2007, 09:35 PM
Burton's pitch that struck out Harris was flat filthy.

OnBaseMachine
08-21-2007, 09:35 PM
Jared Burton is an absolute stud. Major kudos to Wayne Krivsky for picking this kid up for nothing. I've liked Burton since the first day I saw his pitch.

PuffyPig
08-21-2007, 09:37 PM
These days the Reds bullpen is divided.

With a lead, we throw out Bray, Burton and Weathers, and can fare quite well.

When behind, we throw out the others, and, well....

KronoRed
08-21-2007, 09:37 PM
Well, I'd hope he wasn't trying to make an out. ;)

I know you know this, Big Klu, but for those who don't ... the point is that everytime somebody takes a shot at on-base percentage, they're forgetting the point that avoiding an out is the single most important thing a batter can do.

The Reds have averaged 5.82 runs per game in the month of August (excluding tonight), and people may not realize it, but they also have a .369 on-base percentage in the month of August.

Don't make outs (OBP), and acquire bases (SLG). The Reds are OPS'ing .842 for the month of August, and they're scoring a truckload of runs this month. The reason is simple: they've done a much better job at not making outs and acquiring bases.

Funny how that works.

Stop with the making sense Cyclone. :p:

Eric_Davis
08-21-2007, 09:37 PM
His next out and Majewski gets his ERA in the single digits.

Several good outings in a row is nice to see. I hope it continues the rest of the year.

VR
08-21-2007, 09:38 PM
Even with that out, Hopper is batting .431 in August in 58 at-bats.

I didn't see that coming. I didn't know he was even capable of that type of stretch in 58 at-bats.


two walks for the month also. That's scary.

Eric_Davis
08-21-2007, 09:40 PM
Well, I'd hope he wasn't trying to make an out. ;)

I know you know this, Big Klu, but for those who don't ... the point is that everytime somebody takes a shot at on-base percentage, they're forgetting the point that avoiding an out is the single most important thing a batter can do.

The Reds have averaged 5.82 runs per game in the month of August (excluding tonight), and people may not realize it, but they also have a .369 on-base percentage in the month of August.

Don't make outs (OBP), and acquire bases (SLG). The Reds are OPS'ing .842 for the month of August, and they're scoring a truckload of runs this month. The reason is simple: they've done a much better job at not making outs and acquiring bases.

Funny how that works.


And they're getting All-Star production out of Right-handed hitters, something they didn't have the rest of the year.

OnBaseMachine
08-21-2007, 09:41 PM
Dunn has been on base four more times tonight.

Big Klu
08-21-2007, 09:43 PM
I look for another double-switch. I predict:


Hamilton to CF, batting 7th. Hopper from CF to LF. Dunn out of the game.
Weathers pitching, batting 5th.

oneupper
08-21-2007, 09:43 PM
Well, I'd hope he wasn't trying to make an out. ;)

I know you know this, Big Klu, but for those who don't ... the point is that everytime somebody takes a shot at on-base percentage, they're forgetting the point that avoiding an out is the single most important thing a batter can do.

The Reds have averaged 5.82 runs per game in the month of August (excluding tonight), and people may not realize it, but they also have a .369 on-base percentage in the month of August.

Don't make outs (OBP), and acquire bases (SLG). The Reds are OPS'ing .842 for the month of August, and they're scoring a truckload of runs this month. The reason is simple: they've done a much better job at not making outs and acquiring bases.

Funny how that works.

Castro, Freel and Ross to the DL. Gonzo to the Bereavement list.

The outmakers are gone.

KronoRed
08-21-2007, 09:44 PM
Dunn has been on base four more times tonight.

He's putting together his best all around season, he'll be a bargain next year if the Reds do the smart thing and pick up the option

Eric_Davis
08-21-2007, 09:44 PM
If we just had a 3rd starter, we'd be 4 games out.

Eric_Davis
08-21-2007, 09:45 PM
Castro, Freel and Ross to the DL. Gonzo to the Bereavement list.

The outmakers are gone.


It's certainly not a coincidence.

New Fever
08-21-2007, 09:45 PM
Reds are 47-0 when leading after 8. David Weathers is pretty good.

Cyclone792
08-21-2007, 09:46 PM
Dunn has been on base four more times tonight.

Now hitting .266/.377/.559/.936 on the season. For the month of August, Dunn is hitting .300/.463/.667/1.130.

Hopefully Dunn keeps this up for the rest of the season so it really hammers the pressure down on Krivsky to get a long-term deal worked out this offseason. I wouldn't mind seeing the option scrapped and replaced by a four year deal.

edabbs44
08-21-2007, 09:46 PM
Well, I'd hope he wasn't trying to make an out. ;)

I know you know this, Big Klu, but for those who don't ... the point is that everytime somebody takes a shot at on-base percentage, they're forgetting the point that avoiding an out is the single most important thing a batter can do.

The Reds have averaged 5.82 runs per game in the month of August (excluding tonight), and people may not realize it, but they also have a .369 on-base percentage in the month of August.

Don't make outs (OBP), and acquire bases (SLG). The Reds are OPS'ing .842 for the month of August, and they're scoring a truckload of runs this month. The reason is simple: they've done a much better job at not making outs and acquiring bases.

Funny how that works.

Cincy is hitting .302 this month...what happens when they regress to their typical .260ish BA?

Eric_Davis
08-21-2007, 09:48 PM
He's putting together his best all around season, he'll be a bargain next year if the Reds do the smart thing and pick up the option

So, do you want Bruce to stay in AAA a couple of months, have him sit on the bench, or split time with Dunn, Hamilton, and Junior?

There's probably 25-35 starts in Junior's absence. Maybe 8-10 for Dunn. Maybe 25-35 for Hamilton. But, that's not enough. Dunn or Junior could get traded in July and that would work.

Big Klu
08-21-2007, 09:51 PM
Well, I'd hope he wasn't trying to make an out. ;)

I know you know this, Big Klu, but for those who don't ... the point is that everytime somebody takes a shot at on-base percentage, they're forgetting the point that avoiding an out is the single most important thing a batter can do.

The Reds have averaged 5.82 runs per game in the month of August (excluding tonight), and people may not realize it, but they also have a .369 on-base percentage in the month of August.

Don't make outs (OBP), and acquire bases (SLG). The Reds are OPS'ing .842 for the month of August, and they're scoring a truckload of runs this month. The reason is simple: they've done a much better job at not making outs and acquiring bases.

Funny how that works.

I definitely agree with you, and my comment was not directed at you in particular. It was just a general comment that Cantu wasn't trying to make an out. Any time a player swings the bat, he is taking a risk that he will make an out. But the risk must be taken, within reason; otherwise, there is no point in taking a bat to the plate--just stand up there and hope for a walk.

The question is whether Cantu took a reasonable risk on that pitch and that AB. I think he did--he got a good pitch to hit, and made solid contact. He just didn't get a base hit.

nate
08-21-2007, 09:52 PM
Cincy is hitting .302 this month...what happens when they regress to their typical .260ish BA?

I'm sure you'll let us know!

Eric_Davis
08-21-2007, 09:53 PM
These REDS can score some runs.

OnBaseMachine
08-21-2007, 09:53 PM
So, do you want Bruce to stay in AAA a couple of months, have him sit on the bench, or split time with Dunn, Hamilton, and Junior?

There's probably 25-35 starts in Junior's absence. Maybe 8-10 for Dunn. Maybe 25-35 for Hamilton. But, that's not enough. Dunn or Junior could get traded in July and that would work.

Trade Griffey and go with an outfield of Dunn/Bruce/Hamilton.

VR
08-21-2007, 09:53 PM
The reason is simple: they've done a much better job at not making outs and acquiring bases.

Funny how that works.

Very BA driven...it looks like their BA/ OBP margin is about 12th in the NL for the month. I'd love for them to continue to hit .302 as a team. Since I don't think they will, it would be nice to have players with a bit more ability to garner the walk as well.

nate
08-21-2007, 09:53 PM
Now hitting .266/.377/.559/.936 on the season. For the month of August, Dunn is hitting .300/.463/.667/1.130.

Hopefully Dunn keeps this up for the rest of the season so it really hammers the pressure down on Krivsky to get a long-term deal worked out this offseason. I wouldn't mind seeing the option scrapped and replaced by a four year deal.

Absolutely!

Larry Schuler
08-21-2007, 09:57 PM
If Cantu would have gotten a hit then his OBP would have been heavy batting avg driven, which I don't like very much. Walking makes me feel better about his numbers.

Cyclone792
08-21-2007, 09:58 PM
Very BA driven...it looks like their BA/ OBP margin is about 12th in the NL for the month. I'd love for them to continue to hit .302 as a team. Since I don't think they will, it would be nice to have players with a bit more ability to garner the walk as well.

Yep, I'd love for them to pick up about 20-30 points in IsoD in the near future and going forward in 2008, but part of that would require the Reds to consider playing Joey Votto at first base rather than Jorge Cantu. Cantu has looked good in his handful of plate appearances, but the more playing time he gets, the more the outs will pile up.

oneupper made a great point earlier in the thread. The BA (and OBP) is up partially because the team out-makers are either injured or on the bereavement list right now.

VR
08-21-2007, 09:59 PM
If we just had a 3rd starter, we'd be 4 games out.

Add 21 blown saves to a league average of 15....and we're 2 games up.
Start printing playoff tickets.

westofyou
08-21-2007, 10:04 PM
Cantu should have gone for the walk, boost his OBP.

If he went for a soda it'd boost his blood sugar too.

OnBaseMachine
08-21-2007, 10:16 PM
If Cantu would have gotten a hit then his OBP would have been heavy batting avg driven, which I don't like very much. Walking makes me feel better about his numbers.

forget it..

BCubb2003
08-21-2007, 10:19 PM
If Cantu would have gotten a hit then his OBP would have been heavy batting avg driven, which I don't like very much. Walking makes me feel better about his numbers.

I'm not sure I understand this. They're all bases. I understand that OBP trumps BA, but if the OBP is there anyway, it's all good, right?

westofyou
08-21-2007, 10:30 PM
I'm not sure I understand this. They're all bases. I understand that OBP trumps BA, but if the OBP is there anyway, it's all good, right?

I Like the "Cincy Base Hit" example man on 2nd, one out, batter grounds to the SS, runner breaks for third, SS throws to get lead runner, but fails. Scores would give that a Sacrifice or a Fielders Choice.

In 1913 Enquirer baseball writer Jack Ryder lobbied hard for that scoring to be changed to a "Hit" He lobbied so hard it became known as "The Cincinnati Hit"

It lasted for one season, 1913. The last one occurred in the 1913 World Series, during the last game.

Fred Merkle was left holding the ball and missing the lead runner at home.

vaticanplum
08-21-2007, 10:57 PM
I Like the "Cincy Base Hit" example man on 2nd, one out, batter grounds to the SS, runner breaks for third, SS throws to get lead runner, but fails. Scores would give that a Sacrifice or a Fielders Choice.

In 1913 Enquirer baseball writer Jack Ryder lobbied hard for that scoring to be changed to a "Hit" He lobbied so hard it became known as "The Cincinnati Hit"

It lasted for one season, 1913. The last one occurred in the 1913 World Series, during the last game.

Fred Merkle was left holding the ball and missing the lead runner at home.

That's awesome.

Dom Heffner
08-21-2007, 11:40 PM
I'm not sure I understand this. They're all bases. I understand that OBP trumps BA, but if the OBP is there anyway, it's all good, right?

Anytime you see somebody with a high BA and low walk rate, it normally screams "lucky." Most hitters (there are exceptions like Vladdy) can't keep putting balls in play and keep up that high BA.

Walks represent a familiarity with the strike zone. Taking a walk means that the hitter isn't swinging at everything and geting lucky with balls just dropping in.

It's what makes us feel good about Hamilton and makes some uneasy about Brandon Phillips (not me).

The good news is that some can make a living hacking- Howie Kendrick is just going to mash no matter what the sabre heads think- but with a guy like Cantu, who knows?

TeamBoone
08-21-2007, 11:47 PM
over on Braves.com they're saying "this is a mis-match....the Braves aren't even in the same world as a team like the Reds." ;)

How quickly they forget the Reds sweep at home in Atlanta.

And, BTW, I don't think it's been mentioned... the Reds beat the Braves by a run tonight (8-7).

Woo Hoo!!

WVRedsFan
08-22-2007, 12:09 AM
oneupper made a great point earlier in the thread. The BA (and OBP) is up partially because the team out-makers are either injured or on the bereavement list right now.

Wasn't on the boards tonight (took a break), but this speaks volumes. For all the love Freel gets, he makes entirely too many outs. The same goes for Gonzo and Ross. And Castro? It goes without saying. Hopper or Hamilton for Freel and Kepp for Gonzo means less outs (many less outs). And almost anyone is better than Ross at not making outs.

This is not a coincidence. Leave Dunn alone and get rid of Freel, Gonzalez, and Ross. I think all but Ross would get some looks.

And no, I'm not crazy. :roll:

wally post
08-22-2007, 12:24 AM
He's putting together his best all around season, he'll be a bargain next year if the Reds do the smart thing and pick up the option

YES!

BCubb2003
08-22-2007, 12:45 AM
Anytime you see somebody with a high BA and low walk rate, it normally screams "lucky." Most hitters (there are exceptions like Vladdy) can't keep putting balls in play and keep up that high BA.

Walks represent a familiarity with the strike zone. Taking a walk means that the hitter isn't swinging at everything and geting lucky with balls just dropping in.

It's what makes us feel good about Hamilton and makes some uneasy about Brandon Phillips (not me).

The good news is that some can make a living hacking- Howie Kendrick is just going to mash no matter what the sabre heads think- but with a guy like Cantu, who knows?

Thanks for the explanation. You deserve to win a lunch one of these days.

It just struck me as maybe the flip side of Dunn making "the wrong kind of outs" -- complaining because somebody's getting the wrong kind of bases.

KronoRed
08-22-2007, 01:36 AM
So, do you want Bruce to stay in AAA a couple of months, have him sit on the bench, or split time with Dunn, Hamilton, and Junior?

There's probably 25-35 starts in Junior's absence. Maybe 8-10 for Dunn. Maybe 25-35 for Hamilton. But, that's not enough. Dunn or Junior could get traded in July and that would work.

JR should be traded this off season, or even sometime next year.

Also, considering how the Reds are acting with Votto I don't expect them to be in a hurry to bring Bruce up.

WVRedsFan
08-22-2007, 02:08 AM
JR should be traded this off season, or even sometime next year.

Also, considering how the Reds are acting with Votto I don't expect them to be in a hurry to bring Bruce up.
So true. Another thing to ponder is if you want to trade a guys with Dunn's stats for a kid who hasn't proved anything but that he can hit AAA pitching? Remember Brandon Larsen anyone?

Sure, he costs too much. So does anyone who is any good. For too long, the Reds, hiding behind the cloak of being a "small market team" , have taken this philosophy while wasting money on the likes of Alex Gonzalez and Mike Stanton.

Yes. Bring Bruce up and let him earn a spot, but not at the expense of a major part of the offense.

As for Griffey. Did St. Louis trade Stan the Man? Did the Red Sox trade Ted Williams? As long as Junior is productive, leave him alone. And spend money for pitching. And let the Bruce's of the world earn their spots.

nate
08-22-2007, 07:50 AM
And spend money for pitching.

Take a look at this year's FA pitching class. Its...well, just take a look at it.

I think we're going to have to make a trade to get better pitching.