8/28/07 vs Pirates.....GAME TWO - the answer is no

[Matt700wlw]

What is the quesion??

Hopper cf
Keppinger rf
Phillips 2b
Cantu 1b
Dunn lf
Encarnacion 3b
Gonzalez ss
Ross c
Arroyo p

[Puffy]

Wow, Hamilton sits out both games. Can't say I agree, but what are ya gonna do.

[flyer85]

Wow, Hamilton sits out both games. Can't say I agree, but what are ya gonna do.lose

[OnBaseMachine]

No Hamilton and Cantu ahead of Dunn. It looks like Pete has decided to mail it in.

[KronoRed]

Looks like someone is a new favorite.

[MrCinatit]

Cantu in cleanup.

We continue to live the nightmare, but with a different cast.

[WVRedsFan]

Cantu in cleanup.

We continue to live the nightmare, but with a different cast.

Just wow.

[Matt700wlw]

Cards beating up on the Astros 4-0...

[oneupper]

Will Ellison start both games? (Is that correct, Alex?)

[Matt700wlw]

Will Ellison start both games? (Is that correct, Alex?)



http://www.bricklin.com/log/4ea71820.jpg

That is incorrect.

The correct answer is "Will Josh Hamilton start game 2?"

[Matt700wlw]

Hopper...giving up an out

[flyer85]

Hopper is as annoying as Freel

[flyer85]

Hopper 8SB and 6CS. Someone needs to tell him to stop running.

[penantboundreds]

If you are going to steal on a lefty you have to leave first move ... if you don't you will end up looking like Hopper, Norris

[Stormy]

Norris Hopper is the gift that just keeps giving, erasing a run that Keppinger would have driven in. Meanwhile, we missed a great opportunity to get Hamilton some ABs versus LHP today, and for what?

[Matt700wlw]

That looked more like the Reds we've seen all season...

[flyer85]

That looked more like the Reds we've seen all season...that CS cost at least 2 runs.

[CTA513]

Needed that deep fly ball one batter sooner.

[Caveat Emperor]

Nothing kills a playoff atmosphere more than an Elizardo Ramirez start and a Norris Hopper leadoff CS.

[flyer85]

Nothing kills a playoff atmosphere more than an Elizardo Ramirez start and a Norris Hopper leadoff CS.... and 4 Ellison ABs.

[Stormy]

Hopper is as annoying as Freel

My thoughts exactly. My 2 least favorite Reds among positional players are Hopper and Freel, largely because both have very limited skill sets, and are likely to negate anything positive they contribute with their lack of discipline on the basepaths and afield. We are so much better when guys like Freel and Hopper don't see anything more than situational playing time.

[flyer85]

losing the first game really took all the wind out of the sails and now letting Maholm of the hook. Game two could get ugly.

[Stormy]

Nothing kills a playoff atmosphere more than an Elizardo Ramirez start and a Norris Hopper leadoff CS.
:beerme:

[Heath]

Well, at least EdE's not benched.

[Caveat Emperor]

... and 4 Ellison ABs.

In all honesty, the writing was on the wall the minute the pitching probables showed two lefthanders facing the Reds today. Its borderline criminal to field a ballclub that has this much of a problem with lefthanded pitching.

They completely deserve their fate too -- they've known RH power would be a problem since they let Aurillia walk in the offseason and done nothing to correct it.

[membengal]

So...no Hamilton in both ends? Really?

I mean, really?

[Matt700wlw]

So...no Hamilton in both ends? Really?

I mean, really?

Correct. I have no explanation

[membengal]

Every time I feel like there is a glimmer of competence with regard to this team, they stomp my hope into something unrecognizable.

Gotta give them props for that, I guess.

[WVRedsFan]

My thoughts exactly. My 2 least favorite Reds among positional players are Hopper and Freel, largely because both have very limited skill sets, and are likely to negate anything positive they contribute with their lack of discipline on the basepaths and afield. We are so much better when guys like Freel and Hopper don't see anything more than situational playing time.

But the organization loves these kind of players. Speed and nothing else. It's like they lust for them. Freel, Hopper, Ellison--they all are fast, but the first two use poor judgment and the third simply cannot hit major league pitching. And yet the new manager proclaims in one of his first public statements that he's going to find a way to get Freel in every game and then starts Hopper and Ellison which was waving the white flag in the first game of this double header. Krivsky is as attached to speed as Bowden was to the multi-tool player. I don't know which was worse.

[Caveat Emperor]

Every time I feel like there is a glimmer of competence with regard to this team, they stomp my hope into something unrecognizable.

Gotta give them props for that, I guess.

Hamilton IS OPS'ing .621 against lefties this season.

Not like its that much of an offensive downgrade from anyone else in that regard, though.

I think most righthanders would be better off just throwing with their left hands when they face the Reds.

[jesusfan]

I guess we will only be 6 GB with a win and a Cubs loss....

[Matt700wlw]

I guess we will only be 6 GB with a win and a Cubs loss....

That's the spirit!!

:D

[flyer85]

5 hits an 1+ innings and yet no runs to this point ... so much for small ball

[Matt700wlw]

Bronson!

[OnBaseMachine]

This team invents ways to kill rallies.

[membengal]

CE...Hamilton HAS to be allowed to work on it against lefties. He simply does. It is ridiculous to hinder that part of his development to get at-bats for Ellison. It just is. And I will take my chances on Hamilton's prodigious talent over what Ellison brings any day of the week.

[Matt700wlw]

CE...Hamilton HAS to be allowed to work on it against lefties. He simply does. It is ridiculous to hinder that part of his development to get at-bats for Ellison. It just is. And I will take my chances on Hamilton's prodigious talent over what Ellison brings any day of the week.

Ellison getting at bats over anyone is inexcusable.

[Matt700wlw]

Norris!

[jesusfan]

2-0, nice job hop!

[Red in Chicago]

7 hits and only 2 runs through 2 innings...

[jesusfan]

I feel odd rooting for the Brewers and Cubs back and forth like this....

[Caveat Emperor]

CE...Hamilton HAS to be allowed to work on it against lefties. He simply does. It is ridiculous to hinder that part of his development to get at-bats for Ellison. It just is. And I will take my chances on Hamilton's prodigious talent over what Ellison brings any day of the week.

I completely agree.

He's simply too talented to not eventually be a ~.750 OPS player against lefties.

And, for that matter, his lefty OPS as it stands isn't much worse than anything else they're trotting out.

[alloverjr]

CE...Hamilton HAS to be allowed to work on it against lefties. He simply does. It is ridiculous to hinder that part of his development to get at-bats for Ellison. It just is. And I will take my chances on Hamilton's prodigious talent over what Ellison brings any day of the week.

Yep.

[Matt700wlw]

Marty asking Hal about his "pick up Dunn's option" poll...

Hal says they will. Castellini likes him and his offensive numbers would be hard to replace on the free agent market.

Hal says they may try and trade him next year, depending on their standing.

[edabbs44]

CE...Hamilton HAS to be allowed to work on it against lefties. He simply does. It is ridiculous to hinder that part of his development to get at-bats for Ellison. It just is. And I will take my chances on Hamilton's prodigious talent over what Ellison brings any day of the week.

Makes complete sense...you have to wonder the motives of this regime sometimes.

And I think that a lot of this has to come from above. There's no way that Pete and Jerry are this similar. Unless Pete is intentionally mimicing Narron in order to get fired asap.

[GullyFoyle]

Boy, I wish PNC had the Gameday Plus system... Bronson looks like he is killing...

(Edit: I wonder how MLB decided which parks got it first?)

[VR]

Boy, I wish PNC had the Gameday Plus system... Bronson looks like he is killing...

(Edit: I wonder how MLB decided which parks got it first?)


what is that?

[WVRedsFan]

I left for the weekend and only had access to scores with the morning paper the next day and we won them all. I come back and get to watch and...

[Matt700wlw]

I left for the weekend and only had access to scores with the morning paper the next day and we won them all. I come back and get to watch and...

....you get Jason Ellison in game 1, and no Hamilton in either...

Talk about wanting your money back

[GullyFoyle]

what is that?

A lot of stadiums have camera's set up in them to provide computerized flight of the ball projections...(kind of like K-zone)...

They provide starting point, path, amount of break and speed and where it crosses the plate...

Very cool, but you only see it on MLB's Gameday page... but it is free when the stadium has it...

First step to electronic umps if you ask me...

[jesusfan]

Brewers 3 Cubs 0

[GullyFoyle]

Sorry, its called Enhanced Gameday....

Article here:

http://www.slate.com/id/2172223/fr/flyout

[VR]

A lot of stadiums have camera's set up in them to provide computerized flight of the ball projections...(kind of like K-zone)...

The provide starting point, path, amount of break and speed and where it crosses the plate...

Very cool, but you only see it on MLB's Gameday page but it is free when the stadium has it...

First step to electronic umps if you ask me...

ahhh, thanks.

I wondered why that popped up once in awhile.

[Matt700wlw]

Overrateds 5, Astro-no-mos 0

[Matt700wlw]

There's the bunt single....

[GullyFoyle]

BP has been up to bat three times and has seen EXACTLY a total of 3 pitches....

[jesusfan]

dang

[Matt700wlw]

Keppinger!

[jesusfan]

2-1 End of 5...

[Matt700wlw]

Overrateds 6, Astro-no-mos 0

[Matt700wlw]

Brewers 3 Cubs 1

[37red]

I disagree. Hopper and Freel bring determination to the club where as some of the big guys bring only big slugs. Maybe they balance each other out, I don't know, but they do bring pursuit and intention to the team. As they get more time on the field they'll get a better sense of when to dive or not. Remember, a lot of times it's the base coaches telling them to go for it. It isn't always their call, it's a try to steal now call. The hit and run didn't work earlier and then the hit came on the next pitch. These guys need to win every game they can right now, telling them to run like hell doesn't mean they will but it shows that they are challenging the other teams with an aggressive approach.

[jesusfan]

3-3 brewers, Cubs... dang

[DoogMinAmo]

I am incredibly fed up with Gameday. The past 3 games it has been freezing up and never recovering. For those who do not have FSN, it is the next best thing. Dont they know the Reds are in a playoff chase? :)

Edit: That is a really long winded way of asking someone to please offer some PBP if possible.

[TeamBoone]

Why isn't Josh Hamilton playing tonight? Anybody know?

[Cyclone792]

3-3 brewers, Cubs... dang

Eh, I'm not worried about that series right now. For the Reds to have any shot, the Brewers have to lose plenty of games too, same as the Cubs. Probably the only result from that series that would hurt the Reds is if the Cubs sweep the Brewers. Any other series result doesn't hurt the Reds too bad, provided they do their job in Pittsburgh during these three remaining games.

[KronoRed]

Why isn't Josh Hamilton playing tonight? Anybody know?

He bats from the wrong side of the plate

[Matt700wlw]

Arroyo's night is done...Ellison to hit.

Arroyo should just hit.

[Cyclone792]

Ross grounds out.

Ellison is pinch hitting for Arroyo now so Bronson's night is done. Majewski is apparently warming up in the pen. I'm not a big fan of using a pitcher in both games, but we'll see. Given that Bray, Burton, and Weathers were not used at all in the first game, it'd be nice to see one of those guys in the 7th.

[alloverjr]

Arroyo's night is done...Ellison to hit.

Arroyo should just hit.

Agreed. I'm so excited to see this move.

[flyer85]

Arroyo has only thrown 80 pitches.

[TeamBoone]

He bats from the wrong side of the plate

That's ridiculous. PM has put a couple of pretty putrid lineups out there tonight. Is there some sort of rule that says the same players (your best) can't play in both games? This is, if you really want to win.

[VR]

Makes me think they are going to turn him around on 3 days rest.

[Matt700wlw]

Hopper with another hit

[Cyclone792]

Ellison quickly strikes out, but Hopper singles up the middle with two outs.

Keppinger up.

[alloverjr]

He's not very good. Hopper with a two out hit.

[Cyclone792]

Makes me think they are going to turn him around on 3 days rest.

Probably the best guess right now. Harang on Wednesday night, Belisle on Thursday night, Shearn on Friday night, then back to Arroyo on Saturday night.

If they're planning on starting Arroyo Saturday night, then it makes sense to pull him now after only 80 pitches.

[jesusfan]

Cubs take the lead... Linebrink blows...

[Cyclone792]

Keppinger grounds out to end the inning.

Not sure who's coming in yet, but I'm guessing Majewski.

EDIT: And it is Majewski, and he quickly gives up a single to Bautista to lead off the inning.

[Matt700wlw]

Wow! Edwin!

[Cyclone792]

Encarnacion makes a fabulous play on a ball chopped down the third base line. The ball came off the bat like a swinging bunt, but Encarnacion charged it and sent a laser to first to nab Castillo.

Bautista advances to 2nd so there's a man on 2nd with one out now.

[Matt700wlw]

Cubs take the lead... Linebrink blows...

Maybe San Diego did know what they were doing...

[Cyclone792]

Phelps pinch hits for Maldonado and hits a small, lazy pop up that Cantu grabs for the second out. Maholm's out of the game, and Matt Kata is pinch hitting.

[jesusfan]

woo hoo...

[Cyclone792]

Kata singles to left to tie the game at 2-2.

I really don't like the decision to use Majewski again in this game. Now Majewski is out of the game, and Bray is coming in. Mackanin should have just brought Bray in to start the inning.

[Eric_Davis]

Just got here.

Why did Ellison pinch-hit for Arroyo when Arroyo was the first player today to knock in a Run with 2 outs and a RISP, then scored the only other run of this game, while he was only at 80 pitches?

[OnBaseMachine]

Same old Gary Majewski.

[Reds Fanatic]

Kata singles in the tying run. Tie game 2-2.

[Eric_Davis]

That was nice...so instead of Arroyo pitching, assuming he wasn't injured, the first guy to relieve him gives up the lead.

[Matt700wlw]

Well crud

[flyer85]

Makes me think they are going to turn him around on 3 days rest.if they lose tonight 3 days won't matter much.

[11larkin11]

Why was Majewski even used? Bray, Burton, and Weathers had some days off, then Maj pitched in Game 1. I like what I've seen from Maj since he came back up, but why was he in there? I dont blame him

[DoogMinAmo]

Same old Gary Majewski.

Not really fair.

Cubs now up 5-3 over the Crew.

[alloverjr]

Nice range Alex. BP would have at least kept that ball in the infield IMO.

I would have liked to have seen Bray facing Kata.

Go Cubbies.

[flyer85]

I really don't like the decision to use Majewski again in this game. Now Majewski is out of the game, and Bray is coming in. Mackanin should have just brought Bray in to start the inning.Pete is having a bad night, game 1 was a disaster.

[flyer85]

Nice range Alex. BP would have at least kept that ball in the infield IMO.

I would have liked to have seen Bray facing Kata.

Go Cubbies.Tracy keeps his bench even, Kata would have been taken down.

[DoogMinAmo]

Nice range Alex. BP would have at least kept that ball in the infield IMO.

I would have liked to have seen Bray facing Kata.

Go Cubbies.

Bray coming in now, one batter too late. Up to the 'O' to win this one late, yet again.

[11larkin11]

Even if you bring Maj in to start the inning, give the ball up to Bray for Kata the lefty.

[Cyclone792]

Bray strikes out McLouth to end the inning.

Mackanin royally screwed up that inning; Bray should have just started the 7th himself. Since Mackanin didn't use any of Bray, Burton, or Weathers in the first game, those guys should have been the first three out of the pen if there was a lead to preserve or a close game.

[alloverjr]

Tracy keeps his bench even, Kata would have been taken down.

I take my chances with Bray versus the RH than Majik against the LH - let Tracy burn 2 players.

[DoogMinAmo]

Tracy keeps his bench even, Kata would have been taken down.

Then Kata would have been burned for nothing, and Bray does pretty well against righties. Bray should have been in to face Kata, or whoever, especially if he was coming in to face McLouth if Kata got on.

[flyer85]

I take my chances with Bray versus the RH than Majik against the LH - let Tracy burn 2 players.I would agree, it was still a mistake. But the Reds end up being either very RH or very LH on the bench almost every night

[Eric_Davis]

Probably the best guess right now. Harang on Wednesday night, Belisle on Thursday night, Shearn on Friday night, then back to Arroyo on Saturday night.

If they're planning on starting Arroyo Saturday night, then it makes sense to pull him now after only 80 pitches.

That's possible.

[VR]

Anyone know how many blown saves in Bronson's starts this year?

[DoogMinAmo]

With the 3-4-5 hitters up for the Reds, and the 2-3-4 hitters due up for the Pirates, I would keep Bray in to pitch the 8th, now that he is out there.

[Cyclone792]

Phillips leads off with an infield hit down the third base line.

It's time for the Reds to dent the scoreboard and try to lock up a win.

Cantu squares to bunt on the first pitch.

[Tony Cloninger]

You see the same stupidity coming out of Pete...that came out of Jerry ...when things started rolling and they started looking like they might do something....all of a sudden they start managing like they are trying to re-invent the game.

[alloverjr]

Don't bunt Cantu! Don't like this decision at all.

[Matt700wlw]

This ump is not having a good night

[DoogMinAmo]

This ump is not having a good night

What happened?

[Cyclone792]

A phantom foul ball was called on the second pitch. The ump ruled that the pitch hit Cantu's bat on a bunt attempt that was pulled back, but it clearly didn't. The count's now 2-1, though it should be 3-0.

[flyer85]

You see the same stupidity coming out of Pete...that came out of Jerry ...when things started rolling and they started looking like they might do something....all of a sudden they start managing like they are trying to re-invent the game.The Reds margin for error is so small they really can't afford to be outmanaged. some of it is the fault of the front office sticking with a worthless player like Ellison.

[Cyclone792]

And Cantu swings at a ball that's low and away, out of the strike zone, and grounds into a double play.

[Red in Chicago]

imagine that...another dp

[DoogMinAmo]

A phantom foul ball was called on the second pitch. The ump ruled that the pitch hit Cantu's bat on a bunt attempt that was pulled back, but it clearly didn't. The count's now 2-1, though it should be 3-0.

Thanks. FWIW, Gamecast had the ball positioned as a strike called if it wasn't swung at.

[SteelSD]

And the Reds just created another double play by sending Phillips and getting the SS to the bag early. Gawd.

[flyer85]

so if he PH for Cantu in game 1 why not game 2?

[flyer85]

Thanks. FWIW, Gamecast had the ball positioned as a strike called if it wasn't swung at.pay no attention to gamecast

[redsfan4445]

these two games are the worse games managed by MACK, WHEN we needed these games BAD.. GRRRRRR

[DoogMinAmo]

I would have rather had Cantu bunt than that, Marte now in to face Dunn.

[Cyclone792]

Pirates bring in Marte to pitch to Dunn. Count's 3-1 so far.

And then Dunn walks.

[mbgrayson]

Dunn walks on a 3-1 count.

[DoogMinAmo]

If EE can rake one here, all would be forgiven in reds.com message board land.

[GullyFoyle]

EE has had a good day so far.... well see...

[flyer85]

However, Tracy(who I am no fan of) has done everything right by the book ... and it has worked heavily in his favor.

[TeamBoone]

these two games are the worse games managed by MACK, WHEN we needed these games BAD.. GRRRRRR


I couldn't agree with you more. It's even more important to manage these two games well because of the putrid lineups he's put out there.

He should have just put it out of his head that this is a double-header and played one game at a time, the way he normally plans it. If most of the same guys play in both games, fine... it won't kill them.

[Cyclone792]

Chacon in to pitch to Encarnacion, and Dunn steals 2nd on Chacon's first pitch. Count's 2-0 now to Edwin.

[SteelSD]

Dunn steals 2B on the first pitch to Encarnacion.

[GullyFoyle]

See Hopper :P

[DoogMinAmo]

EEs one career hit off Chacon is a HR.

[Cyclone792]

Encarnacion grounds out to short to end the inning.

[alloverjr]

I couldn't agree with you more. It's even more important to manage these two games well because of the putrid lineups he's put out there.

He should have just put it out of his head that this is a double-header and played one game at a time, the way he normally plans it. If most of the same guys play in both games, fine... it won't kill them.


I would agree with that.

[SteelSD]

Encarnacion hit the ball hard, but right at the shortstop.

[Cyclone792]

Bray remains in the game, and he retires Izturis on his second pitch of the inning with a fly ball to shallow left field that Dunn hauls in.

[DoogMinAmo]

Extra innings would make a long day for both teams. The Reds need to put the Pirates away fast.

[Cyclone792]

Sanchez triples to the 410 foot sign out in left center with one out. This isn't looking too good now.

[DoogMinAmo]

Bray needs to K LaRoche then get Bay out.

[flyer85]

tracy has played every single righty-lefty matchup to his advantage in both games (whether batting or pitching) ... until laroche

[Cyclone792]

LaRoche singles to center, and the Pirates lead 3-2.

[Matt700wlw]

There goes that....

8th inning.

Where's Burton?

[SteelSD]

Laroche barely stays alive while fouling a ball off Ross' package. Then Bay singles.

Ross now knows what Reds fans feel like.

[flyer85]

the broom is out and reality comes crashing down hard

[DoogMinAmo]

Anyone else feeling frustrated by a team that is 11 games below .500? Shouldn't that be illegal?

[Caveat Emperor]

Well, that little flight of fancy was rather short lived.

[redsfan4445]

Thanks MACK.. glad your not concerned with beating teams you should be beating!!.. MUST games given away and probably the chance to make an impression as well..... I didnt expect a bad managing of two games like this... sad!

[VR]

tracy has played every single righty-lefty matchup to his advantage in both games (whether batting or pitching) ... until laroche

I think the advantage was that Tracy put his BEST PLAYERS out there for both games. Dunn and Griff getting 4 ab's today...Hammy 1, Hatte 1. Sanchez, Laroche, Bay....9. Heloooooooo.

[Matt700wlw]

Looking like it'll be 8 back after tonight.

[Matt700wlw]

Cubs win 5-3....

[redsfan4445]

I guess this would put them what, 8 out assuming they lose tonight?

YEP... guess these Cincy sports owners are accepting of mediocre as long as they sell seats.. (MIKE Brown as well)..

[Tony Cloninger]

I can see WK...in a Mike Brown voice.....we are just 1 RH hitter away from being a contender.

Pirates were playing very good before this series...not as hot as the Reds...but still good enough to outplay a borderline .500 team.

[flyer85]

I think the advantage was that Tracy put his BEST PLAYERS out there for both games. Dunn and Griff getting 4 ab's today...Hammy 1, Hatte 1. Sanchez, Laroche, Bay....9. Heloooooooo.the problem is the Reds are so lacking in RH hitting talent that playing those matchups works against them. I'm sure the Pirates were more than a little happy to only small doses of Dunn, Jr, Hatty and Hamilton.

[Matt700wlw]

Cards win....they're 2 back.

Brewers...2.5

Reds...looking like 8 back.

That long shot is could be longer, and more improbable

[alloverjr]

I think the advantage was that Tracy put his BEST PLAYERS out there for both games. Dunn and Griff getting 4 ab's today...Hammy 1, Hatte 1. Sanchez, Laroche, Bay....9. Heloooooooo.

Cantu's got 8 AB's.

[redsfan4445]

the Reds needed this game.. if the plan was to rest Bronson him for Saturdays start, WHY in the heck didnt he just pitch him GAME #1????? (Assuming he isn't hurt)

[Cyclone792]

Cards win....they're 2 back.

Brewers...2.5

Reds...looking like 8 back.

If the Reds ultimately lose this game, tonight will have been a complete disaster. They'll have lost 1.5 games to each the Cubs and the Cardinals, and even though the Brewers lost, the Reds will still have lost 0.5 game to Milwaukee.

Pretty much the worst possible scenario that could have unfolded tonight ... is in the process of unfolding tonight.

[flyer85]

If the Reds ultimately lose this game, tonight will have been a complete disaster. They'll have lost 1.5 games to each the Cubs and the Cardinals, and even though the Brewers lost, the Reds will still have lost 0.5 game to Milwaukee.

Pretty much the worst possible scenario that could have unfolded tonight ... is in the process of unfolding tonight.the Reds manager did just about everything he could to make it happen.

[Kc61]

Lessons from the doubleheader:

Lizard isn't ready for prime time.
Reds need better right hand hitting.
Maj is pitching better, but shouldn't have pitched both games.
Hitting into double plays tends to hurt your chances.

[flyer85]

I guess those two runs lost in the first look kinda big now.

[Matt700wlw]

the Reds manager did just about everything he could to make it happen.

He's had a bad night.

I'm still scratching my head at the unfolded events.

[VR]

Cantu's got 8 AB's.

When I'm on my last hope for a shot at the playoffs, I want a waiver wire guy (From the worst team in the majors) batting 4th and getting 8 ab's too.

[flyer85]

why not PH for Gonzo, my gosh he has Jr, Hatty, Valentin

[Eric_Davis]

Ross and Ellison a combined 0-7, and because of it, the Pitcher leads off a couple of innings limiting a decent rally at the top of the order.

It's not a coincidence that we were winning more when guys like these (Castro, Moeller), aren't around.

[alloverjr]

When I'm on my last hope for a shot at the playoffs, I want a waiver wire guy (From the worst team in the majors) batting 4th and getting 8 ab's too.

It's the shock value.

[Reds Fanatic]

Leadoff hit for Gonzalez.

[jesusfan]

C'mon Ham-bone!

[jesusfan]

well... I guess I can go back to not caring now...

[Reds Fanatic]

Reds down to their last out with Junior up.

[flyer85]

have to send up Jr

[VR]

Hammy gets half as many ab's as Jason Ellison today.

[Matt700wlw]

Hammy gets half as many ab's as Jason Ellison today.

There's something wrong with that on many levels.

[OldXOhio]

Thanks for the updates fellas, regardless of tonight's results. Having to rely on BBTN otherwise.

In other news, Tim Kirkjian continues to go through puberty. Still waiting for his voice to change.

BBTN is hard to watch as it is. When Peter Brady Kirkjian shows up on the set, that's when I have to turn the TV off.

[Reds Fanatic]

Junior strikes out. Reds get swept and are 8 games back.

[VR]

The bad news, we're now battling for 5th place again.
The good news, all of our stars are now rested and ready for it.

[Gainesville Red]

Hammy gets half as many ab's as Jason Ellison today.

Where's Juan Castro when you need him?

[Eric_Davis]

Put that on your resume' Mackanin.

[flyer85]

Junior strikes out. Reds get swept and are 8 games back.get out the spatula

[OldXOhio]

well... I guess I can go back to not caring now...

That's the spirit :thumbup:

[alloverjr]

I think the '08 managerial search is now back up and running.

[SteelSD]

Awful lineup construction and management tonight by Mackanin. If this guy is going to play the team as a RH/LH platoon matchups while leaving better hitters on the bench, he can go tomorrow for all I care.

[Caveat Emperor]

If getting swept in a doubleheader to the Pittsburgh Pirates doesn't remind you that you still live in the basement, I don't know what will.

[Eric_Davis]

Reds
Josh Hamilton CF
Jeff Keppinger SS
Ken Griffey RF
Brandon Phillips 2B
Adam Dunn LF
Scott Hatteberg 1B
Javier Valentin C
Edwin Encarnacion 3B


This wins games. Who cares who's pitching?


That's the lineup that "was" winning.

[flyer85]

Awful lineup construction and management tonight by Mackanin. If this guy is going to play the team as a RH/LH platoon matchups while leaving better hitters on the bench, he can go tomorrow for all I care.or just do it every night so you play empty batting averages.

[flyer85]

Reds
Josh Hamilton CF
Jeff Keppinger SS
Ken Griffey RF
Brandon Phillips 2B
Adam Dunn LF
Scott Hatteberg 1B
Javier Valentin C
Edwin Encarnacion 3B


This wins games. Who cares who's pitching?


That's the lineup that "was" winning.the only platoon I would entertain is Cantu/Hatty

[Eric_Davis]

Sure,...I just copied the lineup from the Florida series.

Cantu/Hatt, and put Cantu near the bottom.

[Caveat Emperor]

Boone, Miley, Narron, Pete Mack...Why is it that everyone who sits in the Reds dugout suffers from some inexplicable inability to put the best 8 players on the field every night?

Is there some low door frame in clubhouse that they all repeatedly hit on their way to and from the field? Christ...get a maintenance guy to fix it or something.

[Eric_Davis]

I can't believe Dunn needs a game off.

He's 28, and he had yesterday off. There's no need to save him for September, IF THERE IS NOT SEPTEMBER TO CARE ABOUT!

[CTA513]

Time to get back to going after the #1 pick.

[flyer85]

He's 28, and he had yesterday off. There's no need to save him for September, IF THERE IS NOT SEPTEMBER TO CARE ABOUT!... and he had Friday off. Resting him to play Ellison was sheer stupidity.

I was apoplectic when they acquired Ellison and I remember being told he was only a stopgap because they were short OFs ... RIGHT.

[WVRedsFan]

You could see it coming. Mackannin had been pulling all the right strings while playing his best players. Every night he had Hamilton, Griffey, Dunn, Hatteberg, Phillips, Keppinger, Encarnacion, and Valentin in there and the runs came home. For some reason he decides to go all Narron/Miley on us and once again becomes MacNarron:

Plays Jorge Cantu at first and bats him cleanup for God's sake
Starts Alex Gonzalez at short when Keppinger has been on fire
"Rests" Dunn in the first game and bats him 6th in the second
"Rests" Griffey in the second game
Starts (as I predicted) 0-the season David Ross in game 2
Plays Hopper in CF and bats him first and benches Hamilton
Starts Jason Ellison instead of Dunn in game 1
Pulls Arroyo after 6 and 80 pitches
Brings in Majewski and Bray back-to-back and both allow runs
Lets banjo-hitter Ellison hit in a crucial situation
Constucts his lineup so that his "specialists" can pitch to D&G

So much so wrong with all of this. When I predicted a split, I had no idea it would be this bad, but I should have known. MacNarron would rise again.

[SteelSD]

Reds
Josh Hamilton CF
Jeff Keppinger SS
Ken Griffey RF
Brandon Phillips 2B
Adam Dunn LF
Scott Hatteberg 1B
Javier Valentin C
Edwin Encarnacion 3B


This wins games. Who cares who's pitching?


That's the lineup that "was" winning.

I fully expected at least one game of matchup stupidity tonight after the Reds ran out an awful lineup versus Dontrelle Willis last Friday. But Mackanin couldn't just stop with one bad collection of offensive players tonight. He had to produce a second as well.

Voodoo managing irks me to no end. This isn't the minor leagues. This is the Show. Mackanin needs to start acting like he knows the difference.

[flyer85]

Plays Jorge Cantu at first and bats him cleanup for God's sakethe guy not good for the Eggs of the sub 300 OBP is the cleanup ... hmm

[TeamBoone]

I can't believe Dunn needs a game off.

He's 28, and he had yesterday off. There's no need to save him for September, IF THERE IS NOT SEPTEMBER TO CARE ABOUT!

Actually, he's 27. And I couldn't agree with you more.

The whole thing was a debacle... and I'm not blaming it on the team at all.

[Cyclone792]

Mackanin managed tonight's doubleheader almost as if he was scared. He sees the two lefties going against him in one day, and it's like he panics on what to do. As others have said, I don't get it either when a manager tries to get too cute and seemingly outmanages himself rather than simply putting the best guys on the field and rolling the dice with them.

[redsrule2500]

There went our offense, there went any playoffs hope :(

[flyer85]

I don't get it either when a manager tries to get too cute and seemingly outmanages himself rather than simply putting the best guys on the field and rolling the dice with them.it ain't rocket science ... especially when there is such a huge dropoff from the starters to the bench players. Pete morphed into Mr Baseball tonight.

[guttle11]

If I were picking the next manager, this would be my first question:

"Okay, you're facing a lefty, what's your lineup?"

If the answer isn't; "The best 8 guys on the roster" the interview is over.

Lunacy. Sheer lunacy. I'm off to mumble the name "Ellison" for a while in pure disgust.

[WVRedsFan]

Mackanin managed tonight's doubleheader almost as if he was scared. He sees the two lefties going against him in one day, and it's like he panics on what to do. As others have said, I don't get it either when a manager tries to get too cute and seemingly outmanages himself rather than simply putting the best guys on the field and rolling the dice with them.

Experienced managers can take the Jason Ellison's and Norris Hopper's of the world and use them correctly--in spot situations. Unfortunately, Mac must feel like these players are the real deal despite known shortcomings (and even though some say not, I still feel Krivsky has a lot of input with a interim manager). The best thing that has happened to this club (and I don't mean the injuries--I don't want to see anyone get hurt) has been that Mac hasn't had Freel and Ross out there. It forced him, up until tonight, to play Hamilton and Valentin who produce.

This club and this front office accumulates so much trash to play baseball here that it surely tempts an inexperience manager to play them (see Castro, Juan and Moeller, Chad, not to mention any number of pitchers). It's time for a real GM and a real manager. My opinion has not changed.

[SteelSD]

Mackanin managed tonight's doubleheader almost as if he was scared. He sees the two lefties going against him in one day, and it's like he panics on what to do. As others have said, I don't get it either when a manager tries to get too cute and seemingly outmanages himself rather than simply putting the best guys on the field and rolling the dice with them.

You're right of course, but I completely get it. With two lefties on the mound, Mackanin could pacify the low-level Cinci media and the average fan by claiming that he was playing "matchups" and pointing to the "success" the team had with the same type of lineup versus Dontrelle Willis last Friday.

We both know what he did tonight was idiotic, but I understand why he did it.

And Mackanin is quite obviously Krivsky's "guy". Scary.

[flyer85]

You're right of course, but I completely get it. With two lefties on the mound, Mackanin could pacify the low-level Cinci media and the average fan by claiming that he was playing "matchups" and pointing to the "success" the team had with the same type of lineup versus Dontrelle Willis last Friday.

We both know what he did tonight was idiotic, but I understand why he did it.

And Mackanin is quite obviously Krivsky's "guy". Scary.it is now completely obvious that Hamilton/Hopper is a straight platoon(of course we have known that for awhile).

[redsfan4445]

1st game.. Hamilton in CF and Hopper in LF.. THAT should have been the players starting NOT Ellison!

[WVRedsFan]

On the surface, it appears Hopper had a good night. He was 6-9, but he didn't score a run, which is sacrelige for a leadoff hitter and only had one RBI for those 6 hits. He turned one of those hits into an out by poor baserunning. Ellison was 0-4 in the double header one of those at-bats was as a pinch hitter. How funny. A guy batting .063 as a pinch hitter comes up at a crucial point. You'd have to be insane.

I still cannot believe Mac did this. Either someone else is pulling the strings or the man's crazy.

[Caveat Emperor]

"Playing the matchups" is the baseball equivalent of "My dog ate my homework" in terms of managerial excuses.

[flyer85]

On the surface, it appears Hopper had a good night. He was 6-9, but he didn't score a run,
BP did an article on Alex Sanchez a few years back on how you can hit over .300 and have it be an empty batting average.

The recipes was
1)abundance of infield hits (he was a proficient bunter), runners never advance more than one base.
2) no power, ISOP was well under .100
3) few walks
4) very inefficient base stealer

Hopper is almost a dead match for Sanchez

[SteelSD]

it is now completely obvious that Hamilton/Hopper is a straight platoon (of course we have known that for awhile).

Yep, and it's the epitome of stupid.

Hamilton has been given exactly 62 AB versus LHP this season. He's produced at a .226 BA/.314 OBP/.306 SLG clip this season. All things Mackanin and Krivsky can turn to to defend the indefensible. But over such a small sample size, Hamilton is exactly five Hits and three Home Runs away from a .300 BA and a .500 SLG versus LHP for the SEASON. The guy's IsoD versus LHP this year is nearly 90 points. That's important. There simply isn't anything to be gained by running Norris Hopper or Jason Ellison out there against LHP versus letting Hamilton learn on the job. The guy is strong enough to randomly grab those five hits and three taters in short order.

The "matchup" lineups we see are all about someone trying to cover their own arse rather than actually trying to win baseball games. It's a demonstration of a lack of understanding about how games are actually won or lost over the long haul. I'm not surprised to see that from the Reds, but I'm completely sick of a management cadre that can't figure it out.

[flyer85]

The "matchup" lineups we see are all about someone trying to cover their own arse rather than actually trying to win baseball games. It's a demonstration of a lack of understanding about how games are actually won or lost over the long haul. I'm not surprised to see that from the Reds, but I'm completely sick of a management cadre that can't figure it out.it's the kind of stuff that leads to Cantu becoming the next Conine(guy that has no business in the middle of the order).

[WVRedsFan]

Yep, and it's the epitome of stupid.

Hamilton has been given exactly 62 AB versus LHP this season. He's produced at a .226 BA/.314 OBP/.306 SLG clip this season. All things Mackanin and Krivsky can turn to to defend the indefensible. But over such a small sample size, Hamilton is exactly five Hits and three Home Runs away from a .300 BA and a .500 SLG versus LHP for the SEASON. The guy's IsoD versus LHP this year is nearly 90 points. That's important. There simply isn't anything to be gained by running Norris Hopper or Jason Ellison out there against LHP versus letting Hamilton learn on the job. The guy is strong enough to randomly grab those five hits and three taters in short order.

The "matchup" lineups we see are all about someone trying to cover their own arse rather than actually trying to win baseball games. It's a demonstration of a lack of understanding about how games are actually won or lost over the long haul. I'm not surprised to see that from the Reds, but I'm completely sick of a management cadre that can't figure it out.

And you know the scary part, Steel? This guy is going to be the manager, at least via contract, for the next two years. Krivsky likes 2-year contracts. And Bob the owner likes Krivsky, so there you go. So I say let them have at it and when the fans turn on Mac and Krivsky, I'll just say I was there long before them. It won't mean much, but I'll feel warm and fuzzy inside. Kind of like wetting yourself in black pants. No one else will know it but me.

[Caveat Emperor]

Its a real simple question from someone in the media: How is Josh Hamilton supposed to learn to hit left handed pitching if he doesn't get ABs against left handers?

Or are we prepping him to be a platoon player in CF next year? Because that'd be monumentally stupid.

[flyer85]

Or are we prepping him to be a platoon player in CF next year?I'd say it's a given with the current administration. Obviously you don't understand how good Hopper. Afterall, he should play LF everyday.

[SteelSD]

"Playing the matchups" is the baseball equivalent of "My dog ate my homework" in terms of managerial excuses.

Pete Mackanin is akin to a student who recieved an "F" on a math test because he produced 0 correct answers, but will argue that he should have a higher grade because he showed his work.

[SteelSD]

And you know the scary part, Steel? This guy is going to be the manager, at least via contract, for the next two years. Krivsky likes 2-year contracts. And Bob the owner likes Krivsky, so there you go. So I say let them have at it and when the fans turn on Mac and Krivsky, I'll just say I was there long before them. It won't mean much, but I'll feel warm and fuzzy inside. Kind of like wetting yourself in black pants. No one else will know it but me.

Actually, the scary part is that the Reds- by happenstance- have a window opening up over the next 2-3 years and I don't have any confidence whatsoever, based on their current behavior, that anyone in this organization has a clue about how to capitalize.

[SteelSD]

Its a real simple question from someone in the media: How is Josh Hamilton supposed to learn to hit left handed pitching if he doesn't get ABs against left handers?

Or are we prepping him to be a platoon player in CF next year? Because that'd be monumentally stupid.

That'd be a great question- especially considering that I think Josh Hamilton already knows how to hit lefties.

[membengal]

Just wanted to weigh back in here and say, right there with you Steel, CE, and others.

It is mind boggling. In every respect.

[edabbs44]

Yep, and it's the epitome of stupid.

Hamilton has been given exactly 62 AB versus LHP this season. He's produced at a .226 BA/.314 OBP/.306 SLG clip this season. All things Mackanin and Krivsky can turn to to defend the indefensible. But over such a small sample size, Hamilton is exactly five Hits and three Home Runs away from a .300 BA and a .500 SLG versus LHP for the SEASON. The guy's IsoD versus LHP this year is nearly 90 points. That's important. There simply isn't anything to be gained by running Norris Hopper or Jason Ellison out there against LHP versus letting Hamilton learn on the job. The guy is strong enough to randomly grab those five hits and three taters in short order.

The "matchup" lineups we see are all about someone trying to cover their own arse rather than actually trying to win baseball games. It's a demonstration of a lack of understanding about how games are actually won or lost over the long haul. I'm not surprised to see that from the Reds, but I'm completely sick of a management cadre that can't figure it out.

I understand the issues with Ellison since he is useless. Hopper, on the other hand, I think has warranted some playing time (esp vs LHPs). I think the board (and, more importantly, the team) needs to answer this question. Does this team have a shot?

If the answer is yes (which many believed going into last night), then Hopper had every right playing over Hamilton. Forget "learning on the job." That's for teams who are out of it. In that midset, who's got a better chance to help the team win now? To this point, Hopper has out-performed Hamilton vs LHPs in any way you'd like to measure it. Small sample sizes, of course, but it's the only stats anyone can go by right now and it's ugly for Hamilton.

If the answer is no (which many probably believe right now), then Hamilton should be seeing more time vs LHPs since Ws and Ls don't matter at this point. Let him face LHPs since his future is more important to this team than Hopper's.

You can't have it both ways.

[SteelSD]

I understand the issues with Ellison since he is useless. Hopper, on the other hand, I think has warranted some playing time (esp vs LHPs). I think the board (and, more importantly, the team) needs to answer this question. Does this team have a shot?

If the answer is yes (which many believed going into last night), then Hopper had every right playing over Hamilton. Forget "learning on the job." That's for teams who are out of it. In that midset, who's got a better chance to help the team win now? To this point, Hopper has out-performed Hamilton vs LHPs in any way you'd like to measure it. Small sample sizes, of course, but it's the only stats anyone can go by right now and it's ugly for Hamilton.

If the answer is no (which many probably believe right now), then Hamilton should be seeing more time vs LHPs since Ws and Ls don't matter at this point. Let him face LHPs since his future is more important to this team than Hopper's.

You can't have it both ways.

Who's trying to "have it both ways"? Norris Hopper is the kind of player who should be filling in for injury or taking an occasional spot start versus LHP when one of the regular OF actually needs a day off. Doesn't matter where the Reds are in the standings. And yes, I understand Mackanin's propensity for voodoo management based on small sample sizes. The problem is that those sample sizes aren't at all predictive. That leaves Mackanin in a place where he can defend playing Hopper over Hamilton even if he can't truly justify such a decision.

[oneupper]

I think you CAN have it both ways. (or SHOULD, at least).

Mac would have to understand that the only reason the REDS got back "in it" (theoretically) , is because they played (and he managed) as if they were "out of it".

If he were really smart he'd manage that way all the time.

If that makes sense.

[edabbs44]

Who's trying to "have it both ways"? Norris Hopper is the kind of player who should be filling in for injury or taking an occasional spot start versus LHP when one of the regular OF actually needs a day off. Doesn't matter where the Reds are in the standings. And yes, I understand Mackanin's propensity for voodoo management based on small sample sizes. The problem is that those sample sizes aren't at all predictive. That leaves Mackanin in a place where he can defend playing Hopper over Hamilton even if he can't truly justify such a decision.

Small sample sizes, "voodoo management", etc. Awesome. Bottom line is that Hamilton has been flat-out Castro like vs LHPs this season. If you want to win, you don't play Hamilton vs lefties right now if you have a better option. And currently, Hopper is a better option than Hamilton in that situation.

But personally, I don't advocate Ellison ever starting over anyone and don't think that Hamilton should have sat both games. He probably should have hit 7th or 8th one of the games.

And since Hopper was on base 6 times yesterday, it kind of blows my mind that people would still be complaining. I didn't see the games, but that's not a bad double-header.

[Matt700wlw]

Jason Ellison was 3 for 23 vs lefties this season going into yesterday I believe....

Josh Hamilton HAS to be better than that whether or not Hopper starts.



If anybody should have sat BOTH games, it's Jason Ellison, not Hamilton.

[SteelSD]

Small sample sizes, "voodoo management", etc. Awesome. Bottom line is that Hamilton has been flat-out Castro like vs LHPs this season. If you want to win, you don't play Hamilton vs lefties right now if you have a better option. And currently, Hopper is a better option than Hamilton in that situation.

I think folks have taken enough time to explain the extreme volatility associated with small sample sizes. They're not useful for projecting much of anything and don't represent who players actually are. You and Mackanin are both making the same mistake.

[Matt700wlw]

Small sample sizes, "voodoo management", etc. Awesome. Bottom line is that Hamilton has been flat-out Castro like vs LHPs this season. If you want to win, you don't play Hamilton vs lefties right now if you have a better option. And currently, Hopper is a better option than Hamilton in that situation.



That's fine. Jason Ellison isn't a better option than anybody.