Cincinnati Bengals v. New England Cheaters --- Monday Night Football --- PBS

[WMR]

Rudi is definitely out. Sportscenter is reporting that Kenny Watson will get the nod.

God I would love to beat the Patriots.

[guttle11]

They will.

I have a hunch. Bengals 31-28. Graham will kick a game winning FG despite a bad snap and hitting both posts and the crossbar.

[WMR]

They will.

I have a hunch. Bengals 31-28. Graham will kick a game winning FG despite a bad snap and hitting both posts and the crossbar.

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

That would be the Bungles all right!! :lol:

[George Foster]

It's pretty tough to have a "must win" against New England. Just shows you got to win the games against bad teams like the Browns. 2-2 sounds alot better than 1-3 after Monday night.
I want the Bengals to win, but it's a tough task. :(

[Redsfaithful]

It's a home game. The Bengals will be healthier than they have been in the past two weeks. Anything could happen.

That said, I really will be surprised if the Bengals can keep it close.

I am looking forward to seeing what Watson can do.

[MaineRed]

Cheaters 38 Defenseless Kitttys 7

[MrCinatit]

I'm kind of glad I will be working that night.
Being a glutton for punishment, I might turn on the radio - but I'm afraid it might end up in the compactor before half time.

[GAC]

Cheaters 38 Defenseless Kitttys 7

:lol:

The Bengals are facing the #1 offense and #1 defense overall. Gonna be a tough one; but anything is possible. They are going to have to play a mistake free game IMO to even have a shot.

Where area do I think they are going to get "burned" at? Special teams.

[BuckWoody]

This is the kind of game where the Bengals seem to pull their heads out of their collective rear ends, focus, and win. There is a part of me that thinks that they can pull this one out despite how badly it looks on paper.

Having said that, however, there is also a part of me that says they'll lose by 3 touchdowns...a big part of me. :(

I'll be there regardless, though, dressed in my silly orange jersey and drinking copious amounts of wobbly pops (we have a hotel room for the night).

Go Bengals!!! http://forum.go-bengals.com/style_emoticons/default/gobengals.gif

[MWM]

A lot of talking yourself into a non-disaster here, IMO. This one is a no-brainer. Don't out-think yourself. I'll run through the streets of Minnesota naked in the middle of winter if the Bengals are within 10 points in this game. This is going to be a slaughter. I'm thinking at least 20 points.

[Sea Ray]

A lot of talking yourself into a non-disaster here, IMO. This one is a no-brainer. Don't out-think yourself. I'll run through the streets of Minnesota naked in the middle of winter if the Bengals are within 10 points in this game. This is going to be a slaughter. I'm thinking at least 20 points.

Wow. The guys in Vegas only think it's a 6 pt game. If you're that confident, go make some easy money.

I think the Bengals will build on the energy of a hometown crowd and a Monday Night and will play them hard for 3 qtrs. Then things will disintegrate, hopefully not to the tune of 20 pts but I admit that's very possible.

[Reds Freak]

I can't come up with a scenario that has the Bengals winning this game. Special teams can't touch a returner inside the 30, the defense can't stop anything unless they get turnovers (the Pats hardly ever turn it over), they don't know who will be playing offensive line, Rudi's out, the Pats will be all over Chad and TJ, the Bengals can't counter with a 3rd receiver...I just don't see how they do it. Although I think the Bengals could go 9-3 the next 12 games to make it to 10-6, you never like to see that 1-3 start to a season..

[SunDeck]

Winning on the road in the NFL is tough. The Pats look pretty strong to me, but anything is possible. Defensive execution is obviously a key. If the Bengals D stay in their places and remember their assignments, they have a chance.

But the real problem is the special teams. If the Bengals can't keep the Pats from scoring on punts and kick offs and if they can't keep them from starting north of the 30 yard line on every drive, then the defense will be in a heap by the end of the game. If you ask me, I think the real problem with the defense is the special teams. When you go through a game constantly having to fight off great field position for the other team, then you are bound to start trying to make too many things happen. You start to act alone rather than as part of your team.

The offense can score, even with R. Johnson out. It'd be a heck of a lot nicer to have him in there, but I really feel like they can keep up the running game well enough to keep the Pats from keying on the receiving corps. It doesn't take much; TJ and Chad don't need but a sliver of room to make things happen.

[Caseyfan21]

The Bengals probably will pull out a win. All logic says it will be a slaughter so that's why I'll pick them. The past couple years the Bengals always seem to let down in the easy games and come to play in the big games. But the offense will have to show up if they want to keep it close.

[HotCorner]

Here are two reasons:

The Bengals are 3-0 when wearing the orange jerseys.
The Bengals are 4-0 in primetime game at PBS under Marvin Lewis.

It's a lethal combo. :laugh:

Honestly this game reminds me of the Denver Monday night game aa few years ago. The Bengals were 1-4 and the Broncos were 5-1. The Bengals came out and whipped the Mile High Horsees. Chad had a huge game that night.

[Hoosier Red]

Hot corner, I think you mean the Broncos were 5-1.

[MaineRed]

Wow. The guys in Vegas only think it's a 6 pt game. If you're that confident, go make some easy money.




They don't THINK it is a six point game. They think that number is what will get an equal amount of bets on both teams.

The Pats have won all three games they have played by 31. Even if they win their first 15 of the season by 31 and play Atlanta at home on the last day of the season, the line won't be 31.

The Pats were 16.5 favorites last week and that too was easy money.

[MaineRed]

betonusa now has the Pats by 7.5

[Sea Ray]

They don't THINK it is a six point game. They think that number is what will get an equal amount of bets on both teams.

The Pats have won all three games they have played by 31. Even if they win their first 15 of the season by 31 and play Atlanta at home on the last day of the season, the line won't be 31.

The Pats were 16.5 favorites last week and that too was easy money.

Semantics. So the bettors think it's a 6 pt game, whatever. My point remains the same.

[HotCorner]

Hot corner, I think you mean the Broncos were 5-1.

:D

[MaineRed]

Semantics. So the bettors think it's a 6 pt game, whatever. My point remains the same.

Nobody thinks it will be a six point game. That is simply the opening line listed by handicappers. They aren't looking for a push, they are looking for equal money on each team. That is why the line, at least on the site I looked at has already jumped a point and a half, the bookies are trying to get some interest going on the Bengals. If bets continue to come in on New England, the line will continue to grow.

[TeamSelig]

We usually play well against good teams, but never seem to win. So we will tease at a win, but all in all, at the end the better team prevails. Probably take off at the end and tack on a good amount of points.

But I'm pretty much expecting a brutal beating.

[MWM]

Wow. The guys in Vegas only think it's a 6 pt game. If you're that confident, go make some easy money.

I think the Bengals will build on the energy of a hometown crowd and a Monday Night and will play them hard for 3 qtrs. Then things will disintegrate, hopefully not to the tune of 20 pts but I admit that's very possible.


I've never bet on sports before, but this might be worth a look. If Vegas is saying 6 points, that's about as easy money as I'll ever make. :)

There's no way in hell the Bengals don't get blown out.

[GoReds33]

Thank God this game is at night. If they are losing it gives me a chance to catch up on my rest.

[Matt700wlw]

My head says no.....my heart always says yes.


What the hell....Bengals win.

What's the worst that happens.....I'm wrong and not surprised?

[GoReds33]

I've never bet on sports before, but this might be worth a look. If Vegas is saying 6 points, that's about as easy money as I'll ever make. :)

There's no way in hell the Bengals don't get blown out.
I actually believe they have a chance. The Pats don't have an angry Corey Dillon with a chip on his shoulder to deal with. That was a killer for a couple years. Samuel is overrated as a cover corner. I think the Pats may try to cover Chad 1 on 1. That would be the biggest mistake ever. Go Bengals!!!:)

[BoydsOfSummer]

It's pretty tough to have a "must win" against New England. Just shows you got to win the games against bad teams like the Browns. 2-2 sounds alot better than 1-3 after Monday night.
I want the Bengals to win, but it's a tough task. :(

Friendly reminder. That bad team has the same record and has already beaten you. :beerme:

[BuckeyeRedleg]

Knowing the Bengals, they'll make it close only to have Marvin not understand a challenge situation and waste a few precious TO's (icing the kicker, calling a TO to think about challenging, etc.) only to put his team into a bad spot.

And then, through a reflection of leadership they'll find a way to lose.

Again.

That is, if they don't get blown out.

I'll call 45-24. At least Marvin won't look to foolish if this happens and he can repeat his "our guys need to make tackles and be in the right spots, you all wouldn't understand the complexity of our situations.....anymore stupid questions?...heh, heh, heh (nervous laughter taken all the way to the bank)."

[Yachtzee]

The Bengals will win if the Offense is able to hit a few "home runs" early in the game, spotting the defense a decent lead. The D always seems to do better when the pressure is off and they can play aggressive. If it's close or the Pats take an early lead, it could get ugly.

[BUTLER REDSFAN]

of course i hope i'm dead wrong but i think there's a chance this could be a nfl record type of loss...63-7 ?? 70-10? this is the team that gave cleveland 51 points, couldnt kick a kick off straight or hold the seahawks from scoring with 2 minutes left in the game..and now we are going up against Tom Brady??????????????

[GoReds33]

of course i hope i'm dead wrong but i think there's a chance this could be a nfl record type of loss...63-7 ?? 70-10? this is the team that gave cleveland 51 points, couldnt kick a kick off straight or hold the seahawks from scoring with 2 minutes left in the game..and now we are going up against Tom Brady??????????????Nah, I hope your not even close. If the Pats score 70, the Bengals will score atleast 40. That's just what seems to happen in blowouts. One team scores alot, their defense quits, and the other team scores alot.:)

[guttle11]

Maroney's questionable. If he's out or unable to play a lot, the Bengals have a much better chance to win the game.

[M2]

The real question is will the Pats scores 38 on the nose again? Given how the Bengals play defense you've got to figure New England will be hard-pressed to keep it that low.

[blumj]

The real question is will the Pats scores 38 on the nose again?

That would start to be a little disturbing. In a Twilight Zone kind of way.

[CTA513]

From Mark Curnuttes blog:



No Rudi, Caleb or Ahmad

Tailback Rudi Johnson (hamstring) and linebackers Ahmad Brooks (groin) and Caleb Miller (back) were not on the field for practice tonight inside Paul Brown Stadium.

Still, Brooks is expected to start Monday night in the middle against the Patriots.

Right tackle Willie Anderson (heel) and left guard Stacy Andrews (shoulder) are practicing. An official injury report won't be available until much later tonight.

Andrew Whitworth is expected to start at left guard and Levi Jones at left tackle Monday night. And look for defensive tackle Domata Peko to possibly work out of the offensive backfield as a blocking back.

[WMR]

Is Ghiucic going to play? Is he healthy?

[CTA513]

Is Ghiucic going to play? Is he healthy?

Hes listed as probable on the Bengals injury report.

[Playadlc]

It is almost impossible for the Patriots to continue to play at the level they are right now.

Pats will win, but it will be something like 28-20.

If I was a betting man this is actually a game I would stay away from. On the road and Monday night is not something you should mess with. I think the 7 point line is right on.

[guttle11]

Today could not have gone any better for the Bengals. Even if they get rolled, they lose no ground to the Ravens or Steelers.

But if they pull a shocker, they gain a game on both, get a bye, and a more favorable schedule for a few weeks.

So they really have nothing to lose tomorrow. Here's to hoping they play like it.

[Reds4Life]

I'll be at the game tomorrow. Tuesday is going to be a baaaaaaaaaaaad day at work :(

[GoReds33]

I'll be at the game tomorrow. Tuesday is going to be a baaaaaaaaaaaad day at work :(Are you implying we will lose? If so, than why would you go? I'll take your ticket.:D

[RedFanAlways1966]

I am old enough to remember the Bengals 1988-89 Super Bowl season. They had an undefeated (6-0) record until they went to Foxboro and got beat by the underdog (2-4) Patriots (led by Doug Flutie), 27-21.

Time for payback!! I have been waiting 19 years for this. The time is now. :rant2:

Bengals 27 - Pats 21

[Reds4Life]

Are you implying we will lose? If so, than why would you go? I'll take your ticket.:D

No, I'm implying that I will have slept about 2 hours, and be hung over. :p:

[wheels]

I am old enough to remember the Bengals 1988-89 Super Bowl season. They had an undefeated (6-0) record until they went to Foxboro and got beat by the underdog (2-4) Patriots (led by Doug Flutie), 27-21.

Time for payback!! I have been waiting 19 years for this. The time is now. :rant2:

Bengals 27 - Pats 21

I remember Ickey kept slipping in that game. It almost became comical after a while.

[macro]

I think that was the game where Irving Fryar was dancing all around the sidelines as the clock was winding down. I never liked him after that.

[BuckWoody]

I'll be at the game tomorrow. Tuesday is going to be a baaaaaaaaaaaad day at work :(
We played it smart this time, took Tuesday off, and got us a hotel room in Cincy.

Win or lose, though, at least we won't have to sit in a sea of Patriots fans like we had with the Cubbies this weekend at GABP.

[Reds Freak]

I think that was the game where Irving Fryar was dancing all around the sidelines as the clock was winding down. I never liked him after that.

Was that the same game the Bengals had stopped the Pats at the goal line and forced a fumble, only to have the ball recovered in the endzone by the Patriots for a touchdown? Things like that always happen to the Bengals...

[Degenerate39]

The Bengals are 3-0 when wearing the orange jerseys.
The Bengals are 4-0 in primetime game at PBS under Marvin Lewis.


1-0 when I have my Carson Palmer jersey on! (And I have it on so let's make it 2-0)

[BoydsOfSummer]

Go Pats!

[GAC]

Which offense is gonna find it's rhythm first?

I still say that special teams is gonna play big in this game.

[RedFanAlways1966]

I still say that special teams is gonna play in thid game.

The Bengals punter, Larson, needs to find a day-job. 35-yard efforts aren't acceptable in the NFL (or college!).

[Playadlc]

Marvin Lewis at his finest.

[GAC]

Stupid challenge IMO. Gonna lose a TO.

[Playadlc]

It was clearly a fumble, and Marvin challenges if it was out of bounds or not.

Just dumb.

[MWM]

Marvin has to be the worst coach I've seen at using his challenges.

But even worse, in all my years watching football, I've never seen another defense that allows as many runs where the RB is never even touched through the line and then there's no DB anywhere around as this year's Bengals. It seems that once they break through the line, they're off to the races.

The Pats are going to put up 40 points here and I don't think the Bengals will put up more than 13.

[George Foster]

this is getting ugly...fast.:thumbdown

[Yachtzee]

Man they really need to take Marvin Lewis's red flag away. If you can't use it properly, don't use it at all.

[George Foster]

3....3 and outs in a row......so much for a shoot out in the jungle.
It's more like a homicide in the jungle.

[RedFanAlways1966]

But even worse, in all my years watching football, I've never seen another defense that allows as many runs where the RB is never even touched through the line and then there's no DB anywhere around as this year's Bengals. It seems that once they break through the line, they're off to the races.


And a good defense should not need the DBs on a run. They should be there as safety valves. Linebackers should at least be there to plug it up or make the first hit. That first hit or attempted plugging of the gap is not there. Pollack/Thurman are really missed. Picking up other teams nottas (Edwards, Jones) aren't the solution, but whatcha gonna do?

[MWM]

This game is one more good lesson for the Bengals organization and the fans to realize just how far they have to go before they're a truly elite team.

They're not even close.

[texasdave]

Look at the bright side - no penalties in the first quarter.:beerme:

[MWM]

3rd and 23. Who wants to bet they get the first down?

[RedFanAlways1966]

Timeout Pats. Bellicheck's camera batteries must have died. Get some new ones!

[RedFanAlways1966]

3rd and 23. Who wants to bet they get the first down?

Reading my mind, MWM? :eek:

[RedFanAlways1966]

No 1st down... well for the Bengals on the Hall INT!! :thumbup:

[MWM]

Reading my mind, MWM? :eek:

I didn't say WHO would get the first down. The Bengals got the first down on that play. :evil:

[MWM]

BTW, I need Housh to get less than 30 yards receiving tonight for my fantasy team.

[George Foster]

3....3 and outs in a row......so much for a shoot out in the jungle.
It's more like a homicide in the jungle.

....a stay of execution??? Come-on Palmer!!!

[RedFanAlways1966]

BTW, I need Housh to get less than 30 yards receiving tonight for my fantasy team.

How about 6 fantasy points for a TD?!? YES!

[GAC]

Bengals capitalize on the turnover with a TJ TD

10-7 now

[George Foster]

Turnovers kill. We need about 3 more.:beerme:

[MWM]

How about 6 fantasy points for a TD?!? YES!

Now I need him to have 2 fumbles and less than 10 more yards receiveing. :cool:

[Joseph]

The Bengals D is just sooooo bad.

[George Foster]

Howie Long is in pretty good shape....can he still play linebacker?

[George Foster]

Randy Moss and Tom Brady is almost unfair....

[cincy jacket]

Sometimes you just have to tip your hat and say well done

[GAC]

So far in this game I look at time of possession and # of plays ran, which is way in the favor of the Pats, and the Bengals better hope for alot more Pat turnovers and short field situations. ;)

[cincy jacket]

Ballgame?

[rotnoid]

Randy Moss and Tom Brady is almost unfair....

That six inch height advantage he has on Jonathan Joseph doesn't hurt.

[George Foster]

Palmer and Johnson having words on the side line...

This has been a lightning fast 1st half....

[GAC]

Chad should not be over there continually giving his QB grief like that.

[rotnoid]

Palmer and Johnson having words on the side line...

This has been a lightning fast 1st half....

Doesn't look as bad as ESPN would have you believe, IMO.

[George Foster]

Doesn't look as bad as ESPN would have you believe, IMO.

I agree...I think Johnson broke from the route.

[Joseph]

Doesn't look as bad as ESPN would have you believe, IMO.

The game or the argument?

I'd agree on the argument. The game is ugly.

[rotnoid]

The game or the argument?

I'd agree on the argument. The game is ugly.

The argument. The game is beyond ugly and the announcing crew is making it worse. I never thought I'd miss Dan Fouts.

[BuckeyeRed27]

Better find a warm body that can play LB and stop the run. If the D can keep it close Palmer can score, but we can't fall 17 back.

[rotnoid]

Better find a warm body that can play LB and stop the run. If the D can keep it close Palmer can score, but we can't fall 17 back.

Belicheat is going to run right up the gut the whole second half. 1 linebacker isn't going to stop it and as soon as the safeties come in, there's Moss or Welker behind them. I'm having trouble figuring out how in the world they thought it was remotely a good idea to come into this game with only 4 active LBs in the first place.

[GAC]

When things aren't going right, frustration can set in. But you can't let it get the best of you and allow your emotions to take over.

The Bengals aren't out of this game; but they are going to have to regroup and make some adjustments in the 2nd half.

Expect more passing and less dependence on the run from the Bengals.

[GAC]

I'm impressed with the inside running of the Pat's Morris

[RedFanAlways1966]

Geez... holding against Justin Smith as he tries to make the tackle on Morris on 3rd down?

[Joseph]

Terrible terrible terrible.

[MWM]

I picked up Smmy Morris this week in my league. Knowing Maroney wasn't going to play tonight, I was tempted to start him instead of Willie Parker. I just couldn't get myself to sit Parker against the Cardinals. If I would have had the guts, I would have won this week.

[smith288]

Folks...this team stinks. I mean, rotten smelly bottom of the hamper smelly. No discipline, no depth, out of position, bickering, uninspired...

I turned them off in favor of Design to Sell my wife DVR'd.

[TeamSelig]

I hate the bengals

[George Foster]

When was the last time you saw a Bengals DB chuck a wide receiver inside the 5 yards you are allowed to do it? The Bengals just let the WR's run their little 6 yard route....no problem...

[George Foster]

12 guys on the field at the beginning of a quarter....never seen that before...

[MWM]

LMAO. Other teams offensive coaches have to be laughing while they're gameplanning and calling plays against the Bengals defense. It's the one time during the season when they know they're much smarter than their opponent.

[macro]

Given their lack of healthy bodies at linebacker, I'm actually not that upset with the defense tonight. Yes, they've looked bad, but they're outmanned, and these are the Patriots.

The offense should be ashamed of themselves.

[cincy jacket]

I am sick of the media saying Marvin should get no pressure because of how bad Cincy was before. I think you can make a good argument that the little success Cincy has had is more in spite of Marvin and his awful game management, drafting philosophy, and defensive game plans. I KNOW the turnaround with Cincy has much more to do with Carson than Marvin. With a coach like Marty Schottenheimer there is no way a team with these offensive weapons are 1-3 at the bye this year.

[George Foster]

I am sick of the media saying Marvin should get no pressure because of how bad Cincy was before. I think you can make a good argument that the little success Cincy has had is more in spite of Marvin and his awful game management, drafting philosophy, and defensive game plans. I KNOW the turnaround with Cincy has much more to do with Carson than Marvin. With a coach like Marty Schottenheimer there is no way a team with these offensive weapons are 1-3 at the bye this year.

here here!!! I think San Diego would love to have Marty back right now...

[MWM]

I am sick of the media saying Marvin should get no pressure because of how bad Cincy was before. I think you can make a good argument that the little success Cincy has had is more in spite of Marvin and his awful game management, drafting philosophy, and defensive game plans. I KNOW the turnaround with Cincy has much more to do with Carson than Marvin. With a coach like Marty Schottenheimer there is no way a team with these offensive weapons are 1-3 at the bye this year.


Nah, I think Marvin is the reason they turned things around. First and foremost, the bengals needed a culture change. He changed it and it was nothing short of a miracle. Now it's entirely possible that he's the guy to get the franchise out of the mud, but isn't capable of actually making them legit super bowl contenders, but I don't think what he's done to date should be diminished.

[MWM]

ROTF, did you see the Bengals trying to tackle Donte Stallworth on that 2nd and 19. That was just funny. You have to laugh.

[dsmith421]

Just hilarious.

What will it take for Mike Brown to give up? How much money? He is perhaps the single most incompetent human being in the history of time.

[BuckeyeRed27]

I think the point the crew made earlier about missing Thurman and Pollack is really the issue the Bengals are having. The guys that are stepping in for them just aren't as good. Those guys would be entering their prime years right now at two really important defensive positions.

That being said I've never been a fan of Marvin's game planning. The Bengals always seem to have something bad happen or get "unlucky". At some point that just has to be a trend in the game prep and play calling.

[dsmith421]

Thanks, Mike. Thank you very much. I absolutely despise myself for ever contributing even a single cent to your disgusting family.

[BUTLER REDSFAN]

of course i hope i'm dead wrong but i think there's a chance this could be a nfl record type of loss...63-7 ?? 70-10? this is the team that gave cleveland 51 points, couldnt kick a kick off straight or hold the seahawks from scoring with 2 minutes left in the game..and now we are going up against Tom Brady??????????????

well at least i was wrong

[BUTLER REDSFAN]

just making a post to get off of 666

[BUTLER REDSFAN]

I was listening to tim lewis on 1530 for a few weeks back near the beginning of the season and after a few days of ""The Bengals will be 12-4 this year" I couldn't handle it anymore...Where do these local media types come up with these projections every year?!?!?

[dsmith421]

I honestly wish they'd moved to Baltimore.

[redsfan4445]

i really HATE Mike Brown!!! He has his dang sell-outs and he smiles and doesnt give a bleep!! and i also blame Marvin for going soft these last two seasons
PLUS drafting good players that cant stay out of trouble.. what a difference if Henry and Thurman are on this team right now

[Screwball]

Thanks, Mike. Thank you very much. I absolutely despise myself for ever contributing even a single cent to your disgusting family.

What?? How is this Mike Brown's fault? He's opened up his wallet to give the Bengals one of the highest payrolls in the NFL. He's brought in Marvin Lewis who had turned things around. He's shelled out the big bucks to keep the actual good players this team has. And yet fans like yourself call his family "disgusting"?

I hope that's just the beer and frustration talking. Otherwise, I find that to be about as disgusting a post that I've seen on here.

[TeamBoone]

Remember when the Pats stunk and were a laughing stock? I do. And it actually wasn't all that long ago.

[TeamBoone]

i really HATE Mike Brown!!! He has his dang sell-outs and he smiles and doesnt give a bleep!! and i also blame Marvin for going soft these last two seasons
PLUS drafting good players that cant stay out of trouble.. what a difference if Henry and Thurman are on this team right now

I guess Marvin must have lost his crystal ball.

Geeeeesh! Maybe some things are his fault (I'm not even sure about that with all the injuries), but drafting players that can't stay out of trouble? Come on.

[dsmith421]

What?? How is this Mike Brown's fault? He's opened up his wallet to give the Bengals one of the highest payrolls in the NFL. He's brought in Marvin Lewis who had turned things around. He's shelled out the big bucks to keep the actual good players this team has. And yet fans like yourself call his family "disgusting"?

Yeah, I do.

They are great businesspeople, I'll give them that. Bled this city of every cent they could, without even making a good faith effort at winning.

But whatever, you're right. MB is a great owner. His record of success speaks for itself.

[BUTLER REDSFAN]

If I hear one more "Who Dey" I'll barf.....right now "Everybody Dey"

[BuckeyeRedleg]

In last game's thread, I compared the Marvin Lewis situation to OSU with John Cooper. They just needed a new man to take them to the next level. Thanks gooness for Mr. Sweatervest. The funny thing is that Marvin living off that 2nd year of success reminds me a lot of Jim O'Brien when he took the OSU hoopsters to the Final 4 in his 2nd year.

After the blind squirrel took us to the Final4, we were then treated to very mediocre brand of basketball for a few years. If anyone questioned O'Brien's talent evaluation (recruiting) or game management, all his blind supporting pollyanna's could say, year after year was, "hey, he took us the final 4...he's the man...blah blah blah."


It took him doing something stupid (paying for untalented Russians) for them to force their hand and give him the axe. Him being a sleazeball was the best thing to ever happen to OSU hoops just to get his lame butt out of there.

I say the same about Marvin. Unless he does something really stupid, he's going to end up getting a ton of mileage out of that one 11-5 season. Oh to get a coaching gig in a city where nobody expects anything, but one winning season every decade or so. Good deal for Mr. Condescending guy.

There is absolutely no excuse for the abortion of a defense he's constructed. None. And his supporters can cry about his bad luck with injuries and bad luck with his drafting of criminals, but seriously what is his excuse for going into that game tonight with 4 LB's? He is a joke. Plain and simple. I'm embarrassed right now to be a Bengal fan. I want him gone yesterday. He has no idea what he's doing and he's lost any control he had of his team.

[pedro]

I think some of you just might take this stuff a little too seriously.

[BuckeyeRedleg]

LMAO. Other teams offensive coaches have to be laughing while they're gameplanning and calling plays against the Bengals defense. It's the one time during the season when they know they're much smarter than their opponent.

Yep, much like Krivsky using up a freeby on Narron, I bet Marvin will do the same during this long 2 week break by taking out his ST coach or DC.

Anything to shift the blame for the mess he's created, I'm sure.

[macro]

I guess Marvin must have lost his crystal ball.

Geeeeesh! Maybe some things are his fault (I'm not even sure about that with all the injuries), but drafting players that can't stay out of trouble? Come on.

Chris Henry, Odell Thurman, Frostee Rucker, and others were all widely known to have off-field issues coming out of college. Other teams were unwilling to take a chance on them because of it, and they fell in the draft. Marvin and/or soP just couldn't resist taking the chance on all that talent, so they rolled the dice and picked them, and it has backfired in every case. The franchise is now paying the price on the field in the form of lost seasons in '06 and '07. Apparently those other teams who passed on them knew what they were doing.

[BUTLER REDSFAN]

I'm glad we have major league teams to root for but honestly anymore...it's just not worth the aggravation..you wait all winter for spring to get here and when it does the Reds are out of it by June which in turn makes you look forward to football, then your team is 1-3 on 10/1...then its an offseason of signing every 39 year old pitcher the f/o can find and no major trades but we expect the Reds to get better?? THen we draft and draft and draft but never seem to improve..other than the 11-5 season where there was a rip in the space-time continuum...watching Marvin Lewis on the sidelines with that same "DUHHHHHHH" look to be followed up with his assanine press conference is just plain old....how do the Steelers change or lose 10 players a year but seem to do nothing but win and win and win ever year???

[smith288]

Im more along that line of thinking.

No amount of personal change (as Marvin stated) can help this team. Its coaching. This team looks like a some arm chair quarterback prepares this team.

They are atrocious to watch. Each game this year was poor strategy.

Ravens - great defensive gameplan + horrible ravens offense / boring offensive strategy = win

Browns - Total opposite defensive strategy + horrid Browns defense = embarassing loss

Seattle - Uninspired loss...nothing of note besides just an obnoxious defensive scheme bending and subsequently exploding into a million pieces.

Patriots - Yea...beatdown. Pathetic offense, typical defense

Im coming to the conclusion this team has no clue what its doing besides alot of "rah rah" crap that changed the culture and a little addition we call Carson Palmer. If Marvin had any influence in this team, we would be a dominant Defense, or in the least, a middle of the pack one. We are easily one of, if not THE worst defense.

I think Marvin will eventually have to go and an accomplished coach come in to teach this pack of rejects how to play ball (especially some defense).

[Screwball]

There is absolutely no excuse for the abortion of a defense he's constructed. None. And his supporters can cry about his bad luck with injuries and bad luck with his drafting of criminals, but seriously what is his excuse for going into that game tonight with 4 LB's? He is a joke.

You're right. Injuries have no effect on who plays the game. Nevermind the fact they're missing 5 LBers they should otherwise have right now. That has no effect whatsoever. It's just crying to point that out. Missing talent due to outside circustances is simply making excuses. 2 healthy LBers should get the job done. Only having 4 actives? Pleez, he should've at least held public tryouts to make sure he could plug in some scrubs. Marvin's a joke. He needs to be replaced by anybody with a pulse.

[/sarcasm]

[MWM]

I've never understood the notion that Mike Brown is a good business man. I've heard it hundreds of times, but I just don't see how people come to that conclusion. Just because he's frugal and makes sure he's making money, that doesn't mean he's a good business man.

I've not seen one shred of evidence that says he's a good business man. In the NFL, there's no dinstinction between your ability as a businessman and the success of your franchise. You can't be a good business man and have the record the Bengals have had in his tenure as the guy in charge.

To put it bluntly, a monkey could make money in the NFL. It's the biggest thing going in sports right now and anyone riding the wave can cash in. If you can't make money in the NFL, it's because your'e trying.

I honestly think Mike Brown is a terrible business man. He doesn't understand what it takes to make an NFL franchise successful. So regardless of his bottom line, that makes him a failure at the business of the NFL.

[Reds Freak]

I had this team pegged at 1-3 going into the bye (I had them losing to Balt instead of Cleveland though). I then had them going 9-3 the rest of the way and finishing the year at 10-6. My optimistic side of me says that they could use 2 weeks to get healthy and figure things out, the schedule gets easier and maybe they can put something together. I'll stick by that prediction for now but tonight was not a step in the right direction...

[smith288]

You're right. Injuries have no effect on who plays the game. Nevermind the fact they're missing 5 LBers they should otherwise have right now. That has no effect whatsoever. It's just crying to point that out. Missing talent due to outside circustances is simply making excuses. 2 healthy LBers should get the job done. Only having 4 actives? Pleez, he should've at least held public tryouts to make sure he could plug in some scrubs. Marvin's a joke. He needs to be replaced by anybody with a pulse.

[/sarcasm]
The LB's we had, when healthy, aren't NFL capable.

Seriously, we have lousy personel. Attribute that to Brown & Marvin.

I can't really blame the Bengals players. They suck. I blame the management that brings them in.

[BuckeyeRedleg]

You're right. Injuries have no effect on who plays the game. Nevermind the fact they're missing 5 LBers they should otherwise have right now. That has no effect whatsoever. It's just crying to point that out. Missing talent due to outside circustances is simply making excuses. 2 healthy LBers should get the job done. Only having 4 actives? Pleez, he should've at least held public tryouts to make sure he could plug in some scrubs. Marvin's a joke. He needs to be replaced by anybody with a pulse.

[/sarcasm]


Nice. Forget the fact that he had a week to bring back Hartwell or dump a wasted space like Holt or Chatman and grabbing a guy from the PS.

Weak argument. More of the same.

[/no sarcasm used]

[BUTLER REDSFAN]

at least this is a heck of a game between the rockies and padres

[Screwball]

Nice. Forget the fact that he had a week to bring back Hartwell or dump a wasted space like Holt or Chatman and grabbing a guy from the PS.

Weak argument. More of the same.

[/no sarcasm used]

Ah yes, they would've made a HUGE difference. Bringing in a practice squad guy or a guy who hasn't been healthy (or good) in years is exactly what this defense needed. Marvin simply dropped the ball.

It's not a weak argument at all. It's not making excuses. It's not crying. It's a very valid argument, in fact. When you're down to 2 healthy LBers, having PS guys, or another retread nobody else wants isn't going to solve anything. But hey, don't let me get in the way of you and your Marvin bashing...

[smith288]

I've never understood the notion that Mike Brown is a good business man. I've heard it hundreds of times, but I just don't see how people come to that conclusion. Just because he's frugal and makes sure he's making money, that doesn't mean he's a good business man.


No, thats pretty much a good businessman. A good businessman is a person who can make money regardless of his product. Being frugal is part of that equation. By that definition, he is a good businessman.


I believe the Bengals are constantly considers in the bottom half of all the franchises in valuation yet i believe rank near the top of the list for profit. Plus, he bought the team for 8 million now the team is worth 825+ million...

So yes, that's good business. Is it good entertainment for me to be up at 12:30 complaining about the mess that is the Bengals season? No Comment.

[MWM]

No, thats pretty much a good businessman. A good businessman is a person who can make money regardless of his product. Being frugal is part of that equation. By that definition, he is a good businessman.


I believe the Bengals are constantly considers in the bottom half of all the franchises in valuation yet i believe rank near the top of the list for profit. Plus, he bought the team for 8 million now the team is worth 825+ million...

So yes, that's good business. Is it good entertainment for me to be up at 12:30 complaining about the mess that is the Bengals season? No Comment.

So who makes more money, the Bengals or the Green Bay Packers? Mike Brown i not maximizing the value of the franchise. He's devalued the Bengals brand over his reign and it's not worth near as much as it would be if he were truly a good businessman. Just making a profit does not make you a good businessman. Like I said earlier, he's making money not because of his business decisions, but because of the success of the NFL. Any moron could make money with an NFL team.

[guttle11]

That was the most watched varsity/JV scrimmage in history...

Bill Gates is a good businessman. Warren Buffet, even Bob Castellini. Mike Brown was born. Big difference.

[BuckeyeRedleg]

Ah yes, they would've made a HUGE difference. Bringing in a practice squad guy or a guy who hasn't been healthy (or good) in years is exactly what this defense needed. Marvin simply dropped the ball.

It's not a weak argument at all. It's not making excuses. It's not crying. It's a very valid argument, in fact. When you're down to 2 healthy LBers, having PS guys, or another retread nobody else wants isn't going to solve anything. But hey, don't let me get in the way of you and your Marvin bashing...

Yes, Marvin did drop the ball. He's been dropping it over and over again for a while now.

There is not much difference between the LB's on his PS, waiver's, and the ones he brought into camp. Heck, you could say Dhani Jones is one of the team's best LB's - injuries or no injuries. That is really sad. Calab Miller? C'mon.

One thing I'm not going to do though is use the current LB injury situation as an excuse for a man that cannot produce a decent defense. His defense was in the bottom 5 of the NFL last year, the year before that, and again this year. Tonight, having the 8 or 9 LB's Marvin brought into camp would not have made the difference or made this defense any better than the bottom 5 where it resides.

It's just the absurdity of it all. He looks completely over his head on Monday Night Football. "Gee, we ran out of linebackers." It's things like this that make the Bengals the laughingstock of the NFL that they are.

And I don't think Marvin is going to get his feelings hurt by being justifiably bashed. He'll be fine, especially considering he coaches in a city that his rather apathetic accepting .500 and sub .500 teams just as long as they get a winner every dozen or so years.

Marvin will be fine. He'll be here for a long time, so let me indulge. It feels good. And you know, some say that people take this stuff way too seriously, so I try to have fun with it.

[TeamBoone]

Chris Henry, Odell Thurman, Frostee Rucker, and others were all widely known to have off-field issues coming out of college. Other teams were unwilling to take a chance on them because of it, and they fell in the draft. Marvin and/or soP just couldn't resist taking the chance on all that talent, so they rolled the dice and picked them, and it has backfired in every case. The franchise is now paying the price on the field in the form of lost seasons in '06 and '07. Apparently those other teams who passed on them knew what they were doing.

Perhaps Marvin thought they would grow up once they graduated... many do, afterall. It's not his fault that they didn't.

BTW, one of the reasons the Bengals aren't playing up to potential right now is the multitude of injured players. We all know that DOES make a difference.

[Caveat Emperor]

Any moron could make money with an NFL team.

Interestingly enough, Mike Brown is the most oft-cited example that backs up this statement.

Fear not, though -- the frugality dies with Mike. I heard rumor once that Pete Brown never had his shirts dry cleaned. When he finished wearing a shirt, he threw it away and went to the store to buy another one.

[cincinnati chili]

Fear not, though -- the frugality dies with Mike. I heard rumor once that Pete Brown never had his shirts dry cleaned. When he finished wearing a shirt, he threw it away and went to the store to buy another one.

Wow, think about all the time he waste pulling pins out of those new shirts!

[redsfan4445]

i dont trust in Marvin any longer.. his players look lost EVERY game.. never consistent other than consistently BAD..here is is the question? why cant our guys be prepared when the opposition KNOWS what vanilla plays are coming?? that reverse tonight was a great call by the Pats.. I said out loud, "Our coaches would never do that"..

[GAC]

Yes, Marvin did drop the ball. He's been dropping it over and over again for a while now.


It's just the absurdity of it all. He looks completely over his head on Monday Night Football. "Gee, we ran out of linebackers." It's things like this that make the Bengals the laughingstock of the NFL that they are.

You're kidding right? Laughingstocks don't play in two MNF games in the first month of the season (and they won the first one).

The Bengals weren't picked/expected to win this game. Why? Very simple - the Patriots are a better team.

My God! I shiver at even thinking what they are going to do to my Browns, who have the overall worse defense in the NFL, next week in Foxboro.

Two of the Bengal's three losses weren't to slouches. The Pats are 4-0, and Seattle is 3-1. Good teams. Seattle is 16-3 at home from 2005 to present.

I don't deny some of the feelings/sentiments expressed here concerning the Bengal's defense (LBing crew). Marvin needs to take the responsibility for that.

But I'm concerned about the Bengal's offense. They have some passionate/emotional players on there. I can understand guys like CJ being passionate about winning, and how losing really affects him. In some ways he can be commended for that. But I think he lets it get out of control sometimes, acts irrationally, and goes a little overboard with it. And they can't let it get out of control and lose their cool. I guess it got pretty heated in that locker room after the game.....

http://myespn.go.com/profile/hashmarks?tag=pats-bengals

'Selfishness' Leaves Bengals In Disarray

A dysfunctional Bengals locker room could be near its breaking point. Standing outside the locker room following the Patriots' dominating victory at Paul Brown Stadium, reporters could hear coach Marvin Lewis ripping into his team. Lewis used the word "selfishness" in his public comments when asked what the Bengals would see if they looked into a mirror.
Earlier, quarterback Carson Palmer clashed with receiver Chad Johnson on the sideline following an apparent miscommunication that led to an interception right before halftime. Palmer's reaction, coupled with the blatantly errant nature of what should have been a relatively simple pass play, suggested there might have been a miscommunication on the route. After the game, Palmer stood up and took responsibility for the miscue, saying he forced the ball into the wrong spot. This seemed like an incomplete, if not dubious explanation, and suspicions grew as Palmer refused to elaborate.
Palmer's comments were consistent with a quarterback who regretted losing his cool and decided to take the fall for the good of the team. Johnson was not available for comment after the game. He suffered a sprained ankle, but could not be found in the training room after the locker room cleared out.
Fellow receiver T.J. Houshmandzadeh picked up the slack, and then some. Houshmandzadeh expressed consternation over Lewis' comments relating to selfishness. Houshmandzadeh said he wished Lewis would just come out and name names, instead of letting his comments hang. Houshmanzadeh acknowledged that he could be one of the allegedly selfish players.
Lewis had pointed to the Patriots as an example of a team that had reaped the benefits of unity, whereas the Bengals' selfishness was dragging them down. Houshmandzadeh shrugged off the suggestion, saying it's easy for the Patriots to show unity because they're winning. He thought winning bred teamwork, not the other way around.
The Bengals are heading into the bye week at the breaking point. They are 1-3 and they have a team meeting scheduled for Tuesday. That one should be interesting.
Palmer: "I made a mistake. I threw the ball intow where I shouldnt' have thrown to. I got on Chad, but I made a mistake. We're both passionate players, and in the heat of things, sometimes you lose your cool, and I lost my cool. ... I should've taken a check-down there, but I got on Chad and I shouldn't have."
Lewis on whether he thought he had taken care of issues pertaining to selfishness: "Not necessarily, because this is a game of greed. But you have to play it within the scope of what you are asked to do. It's not all about you every play, and we have to understand that."



You want to hear something crazy? I still think the Bengals will win this division. Here's my predictions over the next 5 games through Nov 11th (week 10)....

Bengals 5-0 to improve to 6-3

I see them beating Kansas City, Jets, Pittsburgh, Buffalo, and Baltimore. They play the Steelers in Cincy. I think the Bengals will win that one.

Steelers 2-3 to go 5-4
Ravens 3-2 to go 5-4
Browns 2-3 to go 4-5

Every team in the AFC though is gonna have a hard time getting past the Colts and Patriots though. ;)

[Ltlabner]

I think some of you just might take this stuff a little too seriously.

No kidding. Geez.

Glad to see some of the vitrol and hystronics spewed towards Wanye and company isn't just particular to him. Actually, since I have no emotional or entertainment ties to football/Marvin/Bengals its easier to step back and enjoy some of the comedy.

Sometimes I wonder how a few folks on here handle it when the wife accidently burns the pot-roast.

[BuckeyeRedleg]

I find it humorous that we have a fan message board that discusses sports and we have members with thousands of posts that wander into a game thread and are amused that the silly fans care.

If you are not a Bengal fan, or care to comment on the context of the discussion, maybe you just lurk and keep the condescending comments to yourself.

[BuckeyeRedleg]

You're kidding right? Laughingstocks don't play in two MNF games in the first month of the season (and they won the first one).

Maybe I exaggerated with the laughingstock comment a tad. Palmer and company don't deserve that. How about: their D is continues to be a laughingstock?


Two of the Bengal's three losses weren't to slouches. The Pats are 4-0, and Seattle is 3-1. Good teams. Seattle is 16-3 at home from 2005 to present.

Seattle should be 2-2. I didn't expect them to beat NE, but the Seattle loss was just more of the same. What are they now, 1-6 in their last 7? Four of those games were also very winnable. No moral victories anymore. Just quit choking.




You want to hear something crazy? I still think the Bengals will win this division. Here's my predictions over the next 5 games through Nov 11th (week 10)....

Bengals 5-0 to improve to 6-3

I see them beating Kansas City, Jets, Pittsburgh, Buffalo, and Baltimore. They play the Steelers in Cincy. I think the Bengals will win that one.

I appreciate your optimism, but I do think you are wrong here. The Bengals may win 3 of those, but that is it. They continually finds ways to lose. 8-8 is looking probable, which will be good for Marvin, because this town will support him as long as he goes 8-8 every year. It would be interesting to see what happens if he goes 6-10 or worse.

[WVRed]

A sequence in the fourth quarter really stood out for me. Chad Johnson ran down field for 20 yards and ran out of bounds. A Patriots defender put a late hit on him, wasn't called. The next Bengals possession was offsides.

I hate to advocate this, but if I were the Bengals and the next time Tom Brady dropped back to pass, roughing the passer or not, i'd go for his knees to send a statement not just to the Patriots, but to the league in general. If I were Mike Brown, i'd pay the fine too.(Yeah yeah, you stay classy now)


I see them beating Kansas City, Jets, Pittsburgh, Buffalo, and Baltimore. They play the Steelers in Cincy. I think the Bengals will win that one.

The Steelers might as well mark Paul Brown Stadium as Pittsburgh West, because they have had more success in Cincinnati than anywhere else. On the other hand, Cincinnati usually wins in the Steel City.

If this team goes 8-8 right now, I would call that a success given the injuries and incompetence.

[smith288]

So who makes more money, the Bengals or the Green Bay Packers? Mike Brown i not maximizing the value of the franchise. He's devalued the Bengals brand over his reign and it's not worth near as much as it would be if he were truly a good businessman. Just making a profit does not make you a good businessman. Like I said earlier, he's making money not because of his business decisions, but because of the success of the NFL. Any moron could make money with an NFL team.
He hasnt devalued it at all. Its one of the most profitable and only around 10 or 15 million dollars less valuable than the Colts. He bought them for 8 million.

I didnt say Mike Brown is a great owner. I said he is a good businessman in the area of generating profit from a shoddy product. Which they are right now.

[flyer85]

here here!!! I think San Diego would love to have Marty back right now...the fans were chanting for Marty in SD on Sunday. I am not sure the firing Marty was completely wrong but I am sure that hiring Norv Turner to replace him was.

[NJReds]

the fans were chanting for Marty in SD on Sunday. I am not sure the firing Marty was completely wrong but I am sure that hiring Norv Turner to replace him was.

As much as Marty has struggled in the playoffs. I can't believe that letting a coach go after a 14-2 season is a good idea. San Diego also lost both coordinators.

[flyer85]

I said he is a good businessman in the area of generating profit from a shoddy product. Which they are right now.then every owner in the NFL is a good businessman because it is almost impossible to lose money. Even the abomination known as the Cardinals got a new stadium and are rolling in the dough.

[flyer85]

As much as Marty has struggled in the playoffs. I can't believe that letting a coach go after a 14-2 season is a good idea. San Diego also lost both coordinators.I would agree but the situation could have been saved if they had hired a veteran coach with a track record of winning. Hiring Norv Turner after firing Marty will go down as one of the dumbest moves made by a GM in football history.

[Roy Tucker]

Looked to me like the Patriots completely took away Chad and TJ from the passing game (well, maybe not completely, but enough to make them a non-factor). The Patriots said, if you're going to beat us, it's going to be throwing to your 3rd receiver, TE, or RB. I look for other teams to do that.

The Bengals just don't have the personnel to run an NFL-quality defense right now. Hopefully with the bye week, they can get some guys back. The Pats saw that 2 LB defense and went into bulldozer mode and just plowed downfield. No schemes or flim-flam will hide the lack of personnel.

I really hate it when the MNF guys lose interest in the game and just start blathering. Jaworski was the only one paying attention to what was going on on the field and making pertinent comments.

[flyer85]

The Bengals just don't have the personnel to run an NFL-quality defense right now. ... been that way for ... forever. If they don't get TOs combined with a good game from Palmer the chances of winning are small.

[BuckeyeRedleg]

Newer coach, newer players but same ol' Bungles

Oct. 2, 2007
By Gregg Doyel
CBSSports.com National Columnist
Tell Gregg your opinion!

CINCINNATI -- This is not an excuse for the Cincinnati Bengals. The Bengals weren't going to win Monday night in any shape or form, not even with their full roster of healthy players plus half of another NFL team's roster of healthy players. The Bengals weren't going to beat New England, because the only team that can beat New England is New England -- and on Monday the Patriots decided they weren't ready to lose just yet.

But still ...

At some point in New England's 34-13 victory you had to feel badly for the Bengals, and here is exactly where that point should have been:

Late in the first quarter, Patriots leading 3-0 and about to tack on seven more points. It's first-and-goal from the 2, and sadistic New England coach Bill Belichick sends out a formation with linebacker Mike Vrabel at tight end and linebacker Junior Seau at fullback.

On the other sideline, Bengals coach Marvin Lewis must have been nauseous. He had started the game with just four healthy linebackers, then lost one of them -- starter Lemar Marshall -- to an Achilles' injury on the second play of the game.

If Lewis had known what lay ahead, he might have puked right there. Before the half was finished, his best linebacker and leading tackler, Landon Johnson, would be knocked from the game with an eye injury. That reduced the Bengals to two healthy linebackers, Dhani Jones and Anthony Schlegel, both of whom were garbage. Don't look at me like that! Jones was released by the Eagles and the Saints, Schlegel by the Jets. The Bengals picked both up on the waiver wire. That makes them recycled or refuse, depending on your viewpoint.

That's not the point. The point is, the Bengals were forced to play the Patriots' No. 1 NFL offense with only two healthy linebackers and a rookie seventh-round draft pick, safety Chinedum Ndukwe, pulling emergency duty there.

Meanwhile, New England was so loaded with linebackers, Belichick was loaning them to the offense in bulk. That first-and-goal situation from the 2? The Patriots ended up scoring a touchdown. On a pass play. To the linebacker.

Oh, sorry. I need to specify the linebacker, seeing as how the Patriots had as many linebackers playing offense (two) as the Bengals had on defense. The linebacker who scored was Vrabel, who has caught nine passes in his bizarre NFL career, all of them for touchdowns.

Poor Bengals. What happened Monday night was sort of pathetic, and somewhat avoidable. This being the Bengals, they don't avoid issues. They create them, then milk them for the maximum self-inflicted damage. Don't be fooled by the Bengals' respectable 36-32 record under Marvin Lewis. The only difference between this team and Dick LeBeau's Bungles is Carson Palmer, Chad Johnson and T.J. Houshmandzadeh, three offensive players who fell into Marvin Lewis' lap and have spent the last four years trying to overcome Lewis' baby, the Cincinnati defense.
Cincinnati's ineffective defensive schemes have been exacerbated by Lewis' shortcomings as the team's de facto general manager, including wasted draft picks on known character risks Odell Thurman and A.J. Nicholson. Both knuckleheads are -- were -- linebackers. The Bengals began the season with just seven linebackers, including injured Canadian Football League refugee Rashad Jeanty, and have been battling additional injury problems there ever since.

Entering this game, starting middle linebacker Ahmad Brooks was doubtful and replacement Caleb Miller was out. That left four healthy linebackers for three spots, which became three for three spots when Brooks was inactivated -- but the Bengals made no moves earlier in the week to shore up the position. There isn't a spare linebacker on the practice squad. There aren't even the full allotment of players on the practice squad. Same old cheap Bungles, I'm telling you.

And it's the same old Patriots, too. They lose one player, they plug in another and life goes on. Tailback Laurence Maroney (groin) was a surprise scratch, but veteran Sammy Morris -- acquired as a free agent in the offseason -- had surpassed the 100-yard mark with his second carry of the second half. He finished with a season-high 117 yards, including a 49-yarder he punctuated with a vicious stiff arm to Bengals safety Madieu Williams.

Elsewhere on the offense, Tom Brady's request for receiving help led to three additions who sliced up the Bengals' defense: Randy Moss, who scored twice; Wes Welker, who caught three passes and ran 27 yards with a reverse; and Donte' Stallworth, who caught four balls for 49 yards. Plus Brady had Vrabel, who has caught more touchdown passes as a tight end than ninth-year Bengals tight end Reggie Kelly (five).

The thoroughness of this butt-kicking and their helplessness to stop it had the Bengals turning on themselves. Houshmandzadeh and Chad Johnson, both of whom topped 1,000 receiving yards last season, lashed out at Palmer during the game. Reserve receiver Antonio Chatman was stomping on the sideline and screaming at seemingly everyone after one failed drive. So was offensive guard Bobbie Williams.

After the game, Lewis could be heard through the locker room walls berating his players for their selfishness, at one point screaming, "Nowhere in the NFL do guys act like this!"

The Bengals' offense could have used third receiver Chris Henry, but he's still serving an eight-game suspension for a variety of arrests, including one gun charge. On the bright side, Henry could have come in handy had the Bengals gotten their way with the city earlier in the week. Bothered by pigeons at the stadium, the Bengals sent a letter to city officials asking for permission to let club employees who were -- and I quote -- "familiar with firearms" to shoot the pigeons.

Before Chris Henry could grab his Glock, the city shot down the idea.

The Bungles are back, baby. I'm not sure they ever left.



http://www.sportsline.com/nfl/story/10383948

[MWM]

I really hate it when the MNF guys lose interest in the game and just start blathering. Jaworski was the only one paying attention to what was going on on the field and making pertinent comments.

Jaworski is a great addition to the booth. IMO, he's the best thing going for covering the NFL. When he talks, I pay attention because I know I'm goig to learn something. John Clayton? Not so much.

[flyer85]

The only difference between this team and Dick LeBeau's Bungles is Carson Palmer, Chad Johnson and T.J. Houshmandzadeh, three offensive players who fell into Marvin Lewis' lap Doyel stumbled into the truth.

In addition, the Bengals have wasted a bunch of picks on questionable characters in the last few years ... they are the anti-Patriots in that regard.

[BuckeyeRedleg]

Jaworski is a great addition to the booth. IMO, he's the best thing going for covering the NFL. When he talks, I pay attention because I know I'm goig to learn something. John Clayton? Not so much.

I agree. Jaworski is solid.

[traderumor]

Message Board axiom:

There are always more critics ready to fire everyone during tough times than there are praisers when things are going good.

Of course, things are never really going good, because someone is prophesying the downfall even during the good times, with a pretty good chance of being right in the world of sports.

It sure would make good reality TV if there was a Message Board franchise in each major professional sport, though.

[BuckeyeRedleg]

And as for the Bengals, "tough times" would pretty much mean nearly 99% of the past 17 years, right?

[traderumor]

And as for the Bengals, "tough times" would pretty much mean nearly 99% of the past 17 years, right?No, I am only speaking in the context of the current throwing under the bus of Marvin. What happened before he got here is irrelevant because he had nothing to do with it.

[BuckeyeRedleg]

And by the way, the axiom doesn't hold true for me seeing as how I have been carrying the torch for a certain .500 manager and singing his praises for the past 3+ months.

[BuckeyeRedleg]

No, I am only speaking in the context of the current throwing under the bus of Marvin. What happened before he got here is irrelevant because he had nothing to do with it.

Exactly, and it is what happened before he got here that has given him so much leeway.

Calling it "throwing under the bus" is a bit extreme, unless you feel that calling for his job is throwing him under the bus.

I just feel that for this team to get to the next level, he needs to go. Others, including many in the media agree. He has made his own bed and I don't feel anyone is throwing him under the bus. In fact, I think for certain reasons Marvin will get more leeway and continue coaching this team to sub-winning seasons for some time.

Better coaches have been let go or even thrown under the bus for way less.

[traderumor]

Exactly, and it is what happened before he got here that has given him so much leeway.

Calling it "throwing under the bus" is a bit extreme, unless you feel that calling for his job is throwing him under the bus.

I just feel that for this team to get to the next level, he needs to go. Others, including many in the media agree. He has made his own bed and I don't feel anyone is throwing him under the bus. In fact, I think for certain reasons Marvin will get more leeway and continue coaching this team to sub-winning seasons for some time.

Better coaches have been let go or even thrown under the bus for way less.

There are always reasons to fire coaches. They make more decisions in one week on their job, many on national TV, than many folks do in a year. There is always the flip side of each and every decision they make, which many would always do the opposite of whatever decision is made. That is magnified when the team is not performing well, for whatever reason. This looks like it is going to be a tough season, perhaps a crossroads in his career. Some of what has happened Marvin is culpable for, some is part of the game. I think that unequal weight is given to those decisions made (known character flawed draft choices) he is responsible for and minimizing those things that are part of the game (injuries).

[BuckeyeRedleg]

There are always reasons to fire coaches. They make more decisions in one week on their job, many on national TV, than many folks do in a year. There is always the flip side of each and every decision they make, which many would always do the opposite of whatever decision is made. That is magnified when the team is not performing well, for whatever reason. This looks like it is going to be a tough season, perhaps a crossroads in his career. Some of what has happened Marvin is culpable for, some is part of the game. I think that unequal weight is given to those decisions made (known character flawed draft choices) he is responsible for and minimizing those things that are part of the game (injuries).

Fair enough.

I just think he's wasted a few good years of offense with the D he has constructed and the window is closing fast. That and I'm not sold on his game/clock/ red-flag management.

I just don't think he's unfairly being criticized.

[traderumor]

Fair enough.

I just think he's wasted a few good years of offense with the D he has constructed and the window is closing fast. That and I'm not sold on his game/clock/ red-flag management.

I just don't think he's unfairly being criticized.

The release of Brian Simmons has been lost in the shuffle, from what I've read. We've went from a QB curse to a LBer curse, which normally seems to be one of the deeper and easier positions to fill in the game, sort of like RBs. Maybe someone has brought it up. I don't think the criticisms are unfair, just unfairly weighted.

[MaineRed]

That and I'm not sold on his game/clock/ red-flag management.

Not sure what he was thinking on the first challenge. It was far from obvious that Morris stepped out of bounds and if it isn't obvious then it isn't going to get changed.

Also there was no real benefit to winning that challenge. Esepcially when you only get two challenges per game. It didn't come back to bite him because they were so far out of it but I'm also amazed at the way coaches are so willing to throw these things away when they could be so valuable down the road.

One of these days a coach like Lewis will get burned when there is a play that would obviously be overturned if challenged but it won't ever get looked at because of two earlier, silly challenges. Then there will be an outcry that coaches deserve more. I can see that side of the argument but not when Marvin or someone like him is the poster boy for using them up.

[BuckeyeRedleg]

I agree that this team may be cursed. Many good coaches have been sent packing due to simple bad luck. I just think it's not that simple with Marvin. There are many issues they are dealing with and as mentioned I'm not sold on some of his decisions late in close games.

[traderumor]

Not sure what he was thinking on the first challenge. It was far from obvious that Morris stepped out of bounds and if it isn't obvious then it isn't going to get changed.

Also there was no real benefit to winning that challenge. Esepcially when you only get two challenges per game. It didn't come back to bite him because they were so far out of it but I'm also amazed at the way coaches are so willing to throw these things away when they could be so valuable down the road.

One of these days a coach like Lewis will get burned when there is a play that would obviously be overturned if challenged but it won't ever get looked at because of two earlier, silly challenges. Then there will be an outcry that coaches deserve more. I can see that side of the argument but not when Marvin or someone like him is the poster boy for using them up.

Challenges come from someone on his staff giving him the idea that the replay is showing enough video evidence for a reversal. Maybe he needs a better adviser.

That is part of the system that seems unfair since the replays are not run consistently and timely. I saw Billick look like a fool in the Cleveland game when he tried to challenge but the extra point had been kicked. Of course, he could have called time out, but those are limited, too.

[Hoosier Red]

What exactly did he challenge on that? Did he challenge that Morris was out at the 7, or did he challenge that Morris fumbled?

Because the replay looked like he tried stretch out, started to lose control and fumbled the ball out of the endzone.

In that case its a good spot to challenge because even if you don't expect to win it, if you do win the challenge it's a huge change.

[BuckeyeRedleg]

What exactly did he challenge on that? Did he challenge that Morris was out at the 7, or did he challenge that Morris fumbled?

Because the replay looked like he tried stretch out, started to lose control and fumbled the ball out of the endzone.

In that case its a good spot to challenge because even if you don't expect to win it, if you do win the challenge it's a huge change.

He challenged where Morris stepped out of bounds.

Another wasted time out.

It would have been nice to have all three when NE was running out the clock from their own 2 yard line right before the half (after Carson's interception).

[MaineRed]

What exactly did he challenge on that? Did he challenge that Morris was out at the 7, or did he challenge that Morris fumbled?

Because the replay looked like he tried stretch out, started to lose control and fumbled the ball out of the endzone.

In that case its a good spot to challenge because even if you don't expect to win it, if you do win the challenge it's a huge change.

It doesn't really matter what he challenged. Anything wrong that can be overturned using the replay system on that play is fair game. Morris may have fumbled. It sure looked like it. But it didn't go out the back of the endzone. It went out between where he fumbled and the end zone.

Technically Marvin challenged the fact that the guy went out of bounds but you can't blame him for challenging the wrong thing there. After the replay they viewed the call on the field to be correct. That includes the phantom ball out of the endzone.

[GAC]

Maybe I exaggerated with the laughingstock comment a tad. Palmer and company don't deserve that. How about: their D is continues to be a laughingstock?

I won't argue with you there. though my Brown's is far worse IMO.


Seattle should be 2-2. I didn't expect them to beat NE

It's hard to beat a good team at home, yet the Bengals gave then a game.


I appreciate your optimism, but I do think you are wrong here. The Bengals may win 3 of those, but that is it. They continually finds ways to lose.

Finding ways to lose may be true; but I look at how they are playing over the next month and see that it is doable....

K.C. is 0-4 and their offensive line/running game is in shambles. Both the Jets and Buffalo have each won only one game. The Jet's barely beat the 0-4 Dolphins, and Buffalo hung on to beat the Jets. The Ravens defense is not what it use to be, and they now have a QB issue with McNair hurt. The Browns just did a number on them, and the Bengals have already beat them. I agree the Pitt game may be a question mark; but I think Arizona just exposed them. Pitt's 3 wins are Cleveland, Buffalo, and San Fran. Not exactly three contending teams IMO.


8-8 is looking probable, which will be good for Marvin, because this town will support him as long as he goes 8-8 every year. It would be interesting to see what happens if he goes 6-10 or worse.

I could still see them regrouping and going 9-7, maybe 10-6, when I look at their schedule. Unless they really are the Bungles again. But I don't see it.

[GAC]

A sequence in the fourth quarter really stood out for me. Chad Johnson ran down field for 20 yards and ran out of bounds. A Patriots defender put a late hit on him, wasn't called. The next Bengals possession was offsides.

I hate to advocate this, but if I were the Bengals and the next time Tom Brady dropped back to pass, roughing the passer or not, i'd go for his knees to send a statement not just to the Patriots, but to the league in general. If I were Mike Brown, i'd pay the fine too.(Yeah yeah, you stay classy now)

I agree they missed that call; but he was simply given that extra push when out of bounds. No attempt was made to injure him. You're advocating injuring an opposing team's QB, and possibly threatening his career.

[GAC]

Looked to me like the Patriots completely took away Chad and TJ from the passing game (well, maybe not completely, but enough to make them a non-factor). The Patriots said, if you're going to beat us, it's going to be throwing to your 3rd receiver, TE, or RB. I look for other teams to do that.

The Bengals just don't have the personnel to run an NFL-quality defense right now. Hopefully with the bye week, they can get some guys back. The Pats saw that 2 LB defense and went into bulldozer mode and just plowed downfield. No schemes or flim-flam will hide the lack of personnel.

I really hate it when the MNF guys lose interest in the game and just start blathering. Jaworski was the only one paying attention to what was going on on the field and making pertinent comments.

They miss Chris Henry. They have tried to compensate, and take the heat/pressure of CJ and TJ, with the TE Kelley.... but it ain't working.

I understand that being a head coach carries with it many other various responsibilities. Marvin was a defensive coach which was his area of expertise. Now he has an entire team to run. I'm just wondering, due to those other responsibilities, how involved he is on the defensive side of the ball or has he simply delegated those responsibilities and really needs to be more involved? I'm not saying he isn't, just wondering.

I ask the same questions about Romeo Crennell up in Cleveland. This guy has the same defensive background as Lewis, yet he has done little to really improve our defense. Its gotten worse. We have the worst overall defense in the NFL right now. I want to know where the heck are our attacking, speedy LBers to support that 3-4 defense he implemented! :lol:

They bring in Willie McGinest? Gimme a break!

[WVRed]

I agree they missed that call; but he was simply given that extra push when out of bounds. No attempt was made to injure him. You're advocating injuring an opposing team's QB, and possibly threatening his career.

I can guarantee this wasn't the only call similar to this.

Another thing I noticed, correct me if I am wrong. Did anybody see Belicheck puffing up Chad on the sidelines? It's pretty self explanatory that Chad has an ego problem(see Palmer Monday night plus the Steelers game two years ago), and Belicheck did a great job of feeding into that, which I think is going to cause problems down the road.

It was all a brilliant coaching strategy.

[GAC]

Another thing I noticed, correct me if I am wrong. Did anybody see Belicheck puffing up Chad on the sidelines?

Chad had just made a catch, and him and Bellichick were joking around with one another. They were just having fun. Both were laughing.

[macro]

K.C. is 0-4 and their offensive line/running game is in shambles.

GAC, the Chefs are 2-2, and while their offense is sputtering, their defense is ranked #3 in YPG in the NFL after four weeks. Then again, those games have been against Chicago, Minnesota, Houston, and San Diego, so maybe it is a mirage.

[Chip R]

GAC, the Chefs are 2-2, and while their offense is sputtering, their defense is ranked #3 in YPG in the NFL after four weeks.


Forget it, he's rolling. ;)

[blumj]

Chad had just made a catch, and him and Bellichick were joking around with one another. They were just having fun. Both were laughing.
Belichick just having fun? Ha, good one!

[WVRed]

Chad had just made a catch, and him and Bellichick were joking around with one another. They were just having fun. Both were laughing.

To each their own.

You have to keep in mind, Belicheck runs a team where if ESPN said it once, they said it a hundred times "Tom Brady and Randy Moss are no different than the punter or kicker." To see Belicheck be laudering praise toward a player on a different team, I think he knew what he was doing.

Am I blaming him for Carson throwing the INT? No. That was a mental error on Carson's part. But I do think that Chad is on a slippery slope when it comes to his ego and that he is on a similar path to Keyshawn Johnson and Terrell Owens.

I could be wrong though, Chad and Belicheck could be having fun, but given the outburst by Chad and the fact that this is the NFL, and coaches will do almost anything to get a W, would it surprise you?

[Chip R]

An interesting column from The Sporting News' Mike DeCourcy about the Bengals. It's all Chad's fault.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=shuttingupjohnsonisstepi&prov=tsn&type=lgns

[BuckeyeRedleg]

WHAT THE MEDIA ARE SAYING
(Chad) Johnson placing his own stardom above the team's success has defined the Bengals during (Marvin) Lewis' tenure, much more so than the string of arrests that made them a national punchline. ... Around Cincinnati, they so love Chad Johnson. They wear his No. 85 jersey as though it is the Shroud of Turin. They believe he is an incredibly gifted wide receiver. (They're right). They believe he is extremely funny. (They're wrong).

Mike DeCourcy, The Sporting News

Asked what his players would see if they looked in the mirror, Lewis answered, "selfishness." Receiver T.J. Houshmandzadeh wondered if his head coach was talking about him and suggested that he go ahead and name names.

T.J., as former Cowboys cornerback Deion Sanders once said, "If you think I'm talking about you, then I'm talking about you."

Matt Mosley, ESPN.com

Against the Patriots, (the Bengals) were helpless. The only time they stopped (running back Sammy) Morris was on a third-and-2 play at the beginning of the fourth quarter, holding him to 1 yard. As it turned out, the Bengals had 12 men on the field, resulting in a penalty. It was the only time the Bengals had a personnel advantage on the field Monday night.

John Clayton, ESPN.com

(The Bengals) have to be one of the biggest flops so far. With that defense, even the offense can't bail it out. They're in for a long season.

Pete Prisco, CBSsports.com

The old spymaster on the sideline - who, as is his custom, had the demeanor in his post-victory press conference of a dental patient on Novocain - is pretty good at keeping his troops in line and on task. No foolishness in Bill Belichick's world. Not like the Bengals, who seem a disunited basket case.

Mike Lopresti, USA Today

They were the hot team in 2005, but the Bengals look like they are running on fumes just two years later. ... The Bengals have some defensive talent with Justin Smith, John Thornton, Johnathan Joseph and Madieu Williams, but they have no defensive identity. If the Bengals can't force turnovers - and a lot of them - they simply can't stop anyone.

Steve Silverman, MSNBC.com

The Bengals' prideful and professional right tackle, Willie Anderson, said of the Patriots, "They're grown men who take football seriously." Clearly Anderson feels his teammates don't. The Patriots beat the good teams and embarrass knucklehead teams like the Bengals.

Michael Wilbon, The Washington Post

[Roy Tucker]

^
Nice summation of the pounding the Bengals are taking in the local and national press for their perceived lack of maturity, professionalism, and cohesiveness.

[BuckeyeRedleg]

Wednesday, October 03, 2007
Reassessing 1 and 3

After a few days of talk, talk, talk, I'm going back to what I said about the Bengals before the season started, after they lost K.Irons: They didn't upgrade the talent from a year ago, and they've been hammered by injury and suspension. All the stuff about selfishness, immaturity etc. -- fueled by me and Marvin and media hacks coast to coast -- is great for discussion. It might actually be true. It's not really the point.

When you're playing pass defense with 2 green guys like J. Joseph and L. Hall, how do you expect to do against Hasselbeck and Brady? When you're trying to stop the run w/a safety and a down lineman playing LB, why should you expect to contain even Sammy Morris?

When your offense is minus C. Perry, C. Henry, R. Braham, E. Steinbach, K. Irons etc. -- and half the players you do have are one false step from IR -- why would you expect it to perform the way it did 2 years ago, or even last year? The Bengals offense is living on rep. It's too dependent on C. Palmer's right arm, and the ability of TJ and Chad to shake double teams.

Could the Bengals grow up a little? Sure. Yeah. I spoze. Could they play more as a team, if only so they don't look foolish on national TV? Yup.

But the real problem is talent. They don't have enough. They've taken the momentum of '05 and flushed it. I still see 9-7, given the schedule and the chance that some important players will heal enough to play. But the promise of '05 needed to be built upon. It hasnt been.

That's Topic A tonight on SportsTalk on 700 WLW... as well as remaking the Reds and the task UC faces in leaping to the football big time... and really, doesnt the city have better things to do than enact laws against kids playing on the street? check it out 6-9 tonight...

posted by Paul Daugherty at 7:41 AM 9 comments
http://frontier.cincinnati.com/blogs/daugherty/

[traderumor]

Again, all these things are written now, but after watching the D last year and knowing that no significant personnel changes were made, why is anyone surprised? The D is doing exactly what I expected, and the LBing situation has only exacerbated what was already going to be a weak unit. Every year, it seems a big D draft and offseason are forthcoming, but...

Also, this team is what, 1-6 since needing a win to get in the playoffs last year? Unless this is one of those dramatic turnaround stories, a losing season seems sure.

[MaineRed]

I spoze.

Doesn't that paper have an editor? When did it become OK to make spelling mistakes so long as they are on purpose?

I spoze? Does't Paul realize how stupid that reads?

[Chip R]

Doesn't that paper have an editor? When did it become OK to make spelling mistakes so long as they are on purpose?

I spoze? Does't Paul realize how stupid that reads?


I believe it's a blog so I suppose spelling errors go with the territory. :dunno:

[traderumor]

Doesn't that paper have an editor? When did it become OK to make spelling mistakes so long as they are on purpose?

I spoze? Does't Paul realize how stupid that reads?Fo shizzle

[GAC]

GAC, the Chefs are 2-2, and while their offense is sputtering, their defense is ranked #3 in YPG in the NFL after four weeks. Then again, those games have been against Chicago, Minnesota, Houston, and San Diego, so maybe it is a mirage.


My mistake. Was thinking Miami when referencing records. But with their offense sputtering, due to their O-line, I still think the Bengals will beat them. I just don't think K.C.'s defense can hold the Bengals back the entire game while they wil have a hard time putting points on the board.

[GAC]

To see Belicheck be laudering praise toward a player on a different team, I think he knew what he was doing......I could be wrong though, Chad and Belicheck could be having fun, but given the outburst by Chad and the fact that this is the NFL, and coaches will do almost anything to get a W, would it surprise you?

Surprise me how? What was this ulterior (and sinister) motive in joking around with CJ on the sidelines after a play? Are you suggesting he was doing so, even giving praise - and we have no idea what was being said because there was no audio. All we could see was two people laughing and smiling - just to try and get under Johnson's skin, play mind games with him, and upset his game? I think you're reading more into it then what was there IMO.


Am I blaming him for Carson throwing the INT? No. That was a mental error on Carson's part. But I do think that Chad is on a slippery slope when it comes to his ego and that he is on a similar path to Keyshawn Johnson and Terrell Owens.

You'll get no argument from me here.

[WVRed]

Looked to me like the Patriots completely took away Chad and TJ from the passing game (well, maybe not completely, but enough to make them a non-factor). The Patriots said, if you're going to beat us, it's going to be throwing to your 3rd receiver, TE, or RB. I look for other teams to do that.


This is where Chris Perry and Chris Henry are missed. With Henry, we had a quality number three wideout who if not for the off the field issues could be a major contributor as a no 1 wideout for many teams. Perry on the other hand led the entire NFL in receiving for RBs in 2005. Say what you want about it being a busted pick, but these two were major contributors in 2005 and if they were healthy or able to play, both would have made a difference in the game last night.

I'm not saying the Bengals would have won with those two, especially given the LB problems, but it would have been a lot more interesting. It reminds me of when Palmer and Henry both went down against the Steelers, while Palmer's injury will be the one most talked about, losing Henry was what made the Steelers play the same defense that the Patriots employed Monday night on Palmer.