Twins close to trading Garza

[AmarilloRed]

Twins close to deal to land Young, four others from Rays


Scott Miller Nov. 28, 2007
By Scott Miller
CBSSports.com Senior Writer

The Minnesota Twins are closing in on a major trade, though not the one most of the baseball world is awaiting.
Advertisement

While talks continue surrounding two-time Cy Young winner Johan Santana, the Twins are moving swiftly in attempting to replace Torii Hunter's bat in their lineup, lining up a deal with Tampa Bay in which the Twins would acquire outfielder Delmon Young and two others for right-hander Matt Garza, shortstop Jason Bartlett and reliever Juan Rincon.

Multiple sources said the deal was close late Wednesday, though the Rays, according to those with knowledge of the talks, are said to be holding things up because of concerns regarding medical reports on Rincon's elbow.

The deal, which will also send shortstop Brendan Harris and outfielder Jason Pridie to Minnesota, has been close for a couple of days and is expected to either be completed or killed by Thursday.

If consummated, the Twins will net a talented but enigmatic corner outfielder. Young played in all 162 games this summer and finished second to Boston's Dustin Pedroia in the AL Rookie of the Year voting, batting .288 with 13 homers and 93 RBI.

But he also was criticized on multiple occasions for a failure to hustle, and the issue came to a head when Rays manager Joe Maddon yanked him from a game during the season's final weekend in Toronto. Young, the brother of major leaguer Dmitri, just turned 22 in September and Maddon acknowledged before the incident during an interview in September that he simply has some growing up to do, and added that he is confident that Young will mature quickly.

Based on the end of his season, however, some unwanted attention undoubtedly will follow him to Minnesota, and whether Twins manager Ron Gardenhire can control him will be an issue.

Not only did things turn ugly between Young and Maddon on the season's final weekend -- "I'll see you guys next year," Young said angrily during a profanity-laced, post-game tirade after being yanked. "I'm shut down for (Sunday)" -- before the outfielder apologized, Young also was suspended for 50 games while playing for Triple-A Durham two summers ago following a bat-tossing incident.

There is no question, though, that Young has skills: He led all AL rookies this season in games played (162), hits (186), RBI (93), total bases (263), batting average with runners in scoring position (.349), multi-hit games (55) and outfield assists (16).

And the fact that the Twins would trade for him simply emphasizes the fact that, following Hunter's departure and on the eve of a likely Santana trade, they are navigating their way through what perhaps will be the most unsettling offseason in franchise history. Normally, the Twins veer away from players with the sort of baggage carried by Young.

Garza, a first-round pick in 2005, was 5-7 with a 3.69 ERA in 16 appearances (15 starts) for the Twins in 2007. He never could get a firm grip in the rotation, though he is still well-regarded in the game as a coming talent and at least one major league executive Wednesday applauded the pitching-thin Rays for apparently acquiring a potential top-shelf starter.

A lot of us were hoping that the Reds would be able to land Garza, so this comes as a little bit of bad news.

[5DOLLAR-BLEACHERBUM]

Question is, what does this tell us about the Reds plans. You would have to think that with Hamilton and Gonzo to offer, and with Waynes past with the Twins that we could have landed Garza if we had wanted to. Do we have someone else in mind, are we happy with what we have? I would say that this is in a way a positive, like I said I have to believe that with what the Twins got for Garza we should have been able to put a deal together to get him, and Wayne should know quite a bit about Garza. Does this mean that he has his eyes on someone even better, did he not want him to begin with. Also notice Brendan Harris was traded yet again.

[AdamDunn]

You would have to think that with Hamilton and Gonzo to offer, and with Waynes past with the Twins that we could have landed Garza if we had wanted to.

Just because WK has connections with the Twins doesn't mean we can get Garza for Hamilton and Gonzo. Look at what the Devil Rays are giving up. Delmon Young and Jason Pridie and probably some more. Wayne says he has contacted every team concerning pitching. If he could have gotten Garza for a good price, I believe he would have done it.

[Bip Roberts]

I trust Krivsky in finding good deals and I think he understands how important keeping a farm system is.

I like how we are running right now. Build with our talent and buy players to fill in the holes. Especially if the ownership is going to commit to spending cash.

[ChatterRed]

I believe (and hope) that WK is going for better pitching than Garza.

[mroby85]

I don't think i would trade Hamilton for Garza. He definitely has potential, but i think hamilton has shown more at this level. Hamilton has the ability to be a real stud, he obviously proved that after the way he played despite such a lengthy time away from baseball.

[DTCromer]

Garza is overrated and seems like a cancer. The Twins reportedly asked him to work on his offspeed stuff when they sent him to the minors last year and he simply didn't want to. He thought he was good enough without them. If the Twins are looking to trade Santana, even if they get 1 or 2 young arms in return, I don't think you trade a pitcher who you think will be an eventual AS.

[OldRed1966]

It's done.


http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20071128&content_id=2313175&vkey=hotstove2007&fext=.jsp

[ChatterRed]

That trade makes me say "so what". Just a change of scenery for a bunch of one time highly rated prospects that have fallen slightly short of expectations. But then again, Brandon Phillips is working out just fine!!!!

[AmarilloRed]

That trade makes me say "so what". Just a change of scenery for a bunch of one time highly rated prospects that have fallen slightly short of expectations. But then again, Brandon Phillips is working out just fine!!!!

There were a lot of us on both forums who were willing to approve a Garza for Hamilton trade.

[ChatterRed]

There were a lot of us on both forums who were willing to approve a Garza for Hamilton trade.


Not me.

I'm in the Bedard, Peavy, Kazmir trade camp - because they have a few more years left on their contracts unlike Santana. I'd also take a #2 starter on some of those teams that we won't have to give up quite as much. I listed them on another thread a few days ago.

Garza doesn't do much for me.

[*BaseClogger*]

Not me.

I'm in the Bedard, Peavy, Kazmir trade camp - because they have a few more years left on their contracts unlike Santana. I'd also take a #2 starter on some of those teams that we won't have to give up quite as much. I listed them on another thread a few days ago.

Garza doesn't do much for me.

I agree- I think Garza is overrated and I'm glad to see he is gone. However, I'm in my own camp, I think, which says trade for a pitcher somewhere between one the the aces and the "gap bridgers"... you know, a rich hill, ian snell kind of pitcher...

[REDblooded]

forget Garza.......Seeing that price for Delmon Young sure makes me wish the Reds would have moved something along the lines of a Bailey/Fisher package for him. A Hamilton/Bruce/Young OF would be awesome, and surely you could get starting caliber pitching from Dunn/Jr.

[*BaseClogger*]

forget Garza.......Seeing that price for Delmon Young sure makes me wish the Reds would have moved something along the lines of a Bailey/Fisher package for him. A Hamilton/Bruce/Young OF would be awesome, and surely you could get starting caliber pitching from Dunn/Jr.

Dunn/Jr have no trade clauses and Delmon Young is also overrated with quite a bit of baggage...

[REDblooded]

Dunn/Jr have no trade clauses and Delmon Young is also overrated with quite a bit of baggage...

I understand that about Dunn and Jr, but they aren't untradeable.

As for Delmon being overrated........what's your source? I see a guy who hit 97 rbi's in his first full season in the majors, and has one of the top 3 arms in the majors as an outfielder. Excuse me if I fail to see how that makes him overrated.

[*BaseClogger*]

I understand that about Dunn and Jr, but they aren't untradeable.

As for Delmon being overrated........what's your source? I see a guy who hit 97 rbi's in his first full season in the majors, and has one of the top 3 arms in the majors as an outfielder. Excuse me if I fail to see how that makes him overrated.

I think you telling me a player is good because of how many rbi's he had is overrated

[Jay Bruce]

I understand that about Dunn and Jr, but they aren't untradeable.

As for Delmon being overrated........what's your source? I see a guy who hit 97 rbi's in his first full season in the majors, and has one of the top 3 arms in the majors as an outfielder. Excuse me if I fail to see how that makes him overrated.

Right now, his .723 OPS last year with a robust .316 OBP would make him very overrated. He has a lot of potential, but he will either need to improve his plate patience a lot, or prove to have Vladimir Guererro type plate coverage to reach it.

[REDblooded]

I think you telling me a player is good because of how many rbi's he had is overrated


try to stay on topic please.

I think we're talking about Delmon Young as a player here. Try to keep the snarky remarks to yourself

[*BaseClogger*]

Right now, his .723 OPS last year with a robust .316 OBP would make him very overrated. He has a lot of potential, but he will either need to improve his plate patience a lot, or prove to have Vladimir Guererro type plate coverage to reach it.

ok: read that.

basically, Delmon Young is going to have to hit for an Ichiro avg. or put up huge home run totals to meet expectations...

[REDblooded]

I'd say what he did in June, July, and August shows enough of what his potential is to make me believe that he's not an overrated player, but rather a young player getting his fet wet in the big leagues.

[REDblooded]

Lets also not lose sight of the fact that he is an above average outfielder with one of the best outfield arms in the majors.

[*BaseClogger*]

I'd say what he did in June, July, and August shows enough of what his potential is to make me believe that he's not an overrated player, but rather a young player getting his fet wet in the big leagues.

OK maybe overrated was not the best way to phrase it, but I don't think Delmon Young has as much upside at the plate as others do. He just has no plate discipline and that usually is not a trait that you can learn at the big league level. Pitchers are not going to give him anything to hit, and as another poster mentioned, unless he covers the plate like Vladdy he is not going to be very productive...


Lets also not lose sight of the fact that he is an above average outfielder with one of the best outfield arms in the majors.

You are correct that is very important, but he also has some baggage that comes along with him...

Either way it is a picher that I am not very fond of for a hitter I am obviously not very fond of either...

[REDblooded]

He doesn't have great plate discipline, but he makes consistent contact....... His stat's are kinda similar to one Jay Bruce's, with Bruce having better power.

I think he has the chance to be a very good player.

I can understand where you are coming from though.

[*BaseClogger*]

He doesn't have great plate discipline, but he makes consistent contact....... His stat's are kinda similar to one Jay Bruce's, with Bruce having better power.

I think he has the chance to be a very good player.

I can understand where you are coming from though.

Consistent contact? What does that mean? Are we talking about "productive outs" now? He had 127 strikeouts last year, not that it matters... Jay Bruce has much better plate discipline...

[REDblooded]

Bruce has his fair share of strikeouts as well. Delmon DID manage to hit .300 over the second half of the season. For a rookie, that equates to consistent contact in my opinion.

[*BaseClogger*]

Bruce has his fair share of strikeouts as well. Delmon DID manage to hit .300 over the second half of the season. For a rookie, that equates to consistent contact in my opinion.

He barely slugged .400 for the season... what are his strengths? Making contact (but not getting on base) and throwing well?

[REDblooded]

Delmon Young has a career OPS, SLG, and AVG. higher than Brandon Phillips......... at a younger age. You might want to give the guy more than 1 productive year before ripping his game too hard.

[*BaseClogger*]

Delmon Young has a career OPS, SLG, and AVG. higher than Brandon Phillips......... at a younger age. You might want to give the guy more than 1 productive year before ripping his game too hard.

I'm no huge fan of Brandon Phillips. If I were GM and another GM had the opinion that Brandon Phillips is a superstar and offered me a stud pitcher I would do it in a heartbeat....

You are kinda cherrypicking those stats. Career stats means you are including Phillips terrible time in Cleveland. Phillips has the same career slugging as Young despite his terrible avg. in Cleveland. Phillips has a much better career isolated power, plays a more challenging defensive position, and has shown to be a better base runner...

[REDblooded]

"has shown"..............

which is my point exactly. Until Phillips turned 25, he wasn't that kind of player. I just found it kind of funny that you were such a harsh critic of a 22 year old kid who seems to have quite a bit of upside in the opinions of most "experts".

[757690]

I think you telling me a player is good because of how many rbi's he had is overrated

What is the point of baseball, to get on base, or to score runs? How in the world are RBI's overrated? That means that he has helped his team in the most important way possible. He has directly helped them score runs.

Let me make this point once again to all you stat geeks. OBP is valuable, but so is driving in runs. You need players who get on base at the top of the lineup and you need players to drive them in, in the middle of the lineup.

With runners in scoring position and two outs, who do you want at the plate? Ken Griffey Sr. or Tony Perez? Norris Hopper or Brandon Phillips?

I want a guy who will drive the ball and score runs, not a guy who will just get on base. I want to win baseball games, not just put up good fantasy stats.

[REDblooded]

What is the point of baseball, to get on base, or to score runs? How in the world are RBI's overrated? That means that he has helped his team in the most important way possible. He has directly helped them score runs.

Let me make this point once again to all you stat geeks. OBP is valuable, but so is driving in runs. You need players who get on base at the top of the lineup and you need players to drive them in, in the middle of the lineup.

With runners in scoring position and two outs, who do you want at the plate? Ken Griffey Sr. or Tony Perez? Norris Hopper or Brandon Phillips?

I want a guy who will drive the ball and score runs, not a guy who will just get on base. I want to win baseball games, not just put up good fantasy stats.

++

[*BaseClogger*]

What is the point of baseball, to get on base, or to score runs? How in the world are RBI's overrated? That means that he has helped his team in the most important way possible. He has directly helped them score runs.

Let me make this point once again to all you stat geeks. OBP is valuable, but so is driving in runs. You need players who get on base at the top of the lineup and you need players to drive them in, in the middle of the lineup.

With runners in scoring position and two outs, who do you want at the plate? Ken Griffey Sr. or Tony Perez? Norris Hopper or Brandon Phillips?

I want a guy who will drive the ball and score runs, not a guy who will just get on base. I want to win baseball games, not just put up good fantasy stats.

You don't have to be a good player to amass a lot of rbi's- they rely on the situation and your teammates. If I made a lineup of 8 juan castro's plus Brandon Phillips, and then put brandon phillips in the cleanup spot, how many rbi's would he get? Maybe 50. So would that mean he was not as good of a hitter on that team even if he had the exact same OPS? rbi's are important to win games, but are terrible for judging how good of a hitter someone is. What onbase percentage comes down to is how often a player makes an out. If there are 2 outs and I need to score a run, I want to put a batter at the plate that has the greatest chance of NOT making an out. Therefore, judging by last year, I would rather have Norris Hopper at the plate becuase he had a higher onbase than Brandon Phillips...

[REDblooded]

and with that response.......



/thread

[*BaseClogger*]

and with that response.......



/thread

?

[757690]

You don't have to be a good player to amass a lot of rbi's- they rely on the situation and your teammates. If I made a lineup of 8 juan castro's plus Brandon Phillips, and then put brandon phillips in the cleanup spot, how many rbi's would he get? Maybe 50. So would that mean he was not as good of a hitter on that team even if he had the exact same OPS? rbi's are important to win games, but are terrible for judging how good of a hitter someone is. What onbase percentage comes down to is how often a player makes an out. If there are 2 outs and I need to score a run, I want to put a batter at the plate that has the greatest chance of NOT making an out. Therefore, judging by last year, I would rather have Norris Hopper at the plate becuase he had a higher onbase than Brandon Phillips...

I will grant you that RBI totals do not necessarily reflect a players ability, but they do reflect his value to his team, and that is how I rate players.
If you would rather have Hopper at the plate in the late innings with runners on base, than Brandon Phillips, then you will lose a lot of games.
I want Hopper leading off an inning, and I want Phillips up with runners on base. Why else do managers, when Griffey, Phillips and others with power are on the bench, hold them out as pinch hitters until there are runners on base? And use guys like Hopper and Hatteberg to lead off innings when they pinch hit?

[757690]

You don't have to be a good player to amass a lot of rbi's- they rely on the situation and your teammates.

Name me one player from the top 50 in RBI's last year who you think is overrated. It looks to me like the list of the top 50 hitters in the majors.

[Jay Bruce]

Name me one player from the top 50 in RBI's last year who you think is overrated. It looks to me like the list of the top 50 hitters in the majors.

Delmon Young.

[Jay Bruce]

Name me one player from the top 50 in RBI's last year who you think is overrated. It looks to me like the list of the top 50 hitters in the majors.

In addition: Mike Lowell, Justin Morneau, Carlos Lee, Torii Hunter, Raul Ibanez, Jeff Francouer, Adrian Beltre and Khalil Greene.

All were in the top 50 in RBI's, and all are overrated for their bat.

[757690]

In addition: Mike Lowell, Justin Morneau, Carlos Lee, Torii Hunter, Raul Ibanez, Jeff Francouer, Adrian Beltre and Khalil Greene.

All were in the top 50 in RBI's, and all are overrated for their bat.

You think that an MVP, a World Series MVP, and an MVP runner up are all overrated? No offense, but your comment shows just how meaningless and ridiculous stats can be.

I would start every single one of those players over the Reds players at their positions. If I was fielding a fantasy team, I might not want some of them, but I would love to have all of them actually playing real baseball for any team of mine. Everyone you named on that list is a clutch baseball player. I also would love to have everyone of them at bat in a crucial situation in an important game.

The only thing that is overrated is some people's obsession with OBP.

[Bip Roberts]

OBP is over rated

[*BaseClogger*]

You think that an MVP, a World Series MVP, and an MVP runner up are all overrated? No offense, but your comment shows just how meaningless and ridiculous stats can be.

I would start every single one of those players over the Reds players at their positions. If I was fielding a fantasy team, I might not want some of them, but I would love to have all of them actually playing real baseball for any team of mine. Everyone you named on that list is a clutch baseball player. I also would love to have everyone of them at bat in a crucial situation in an important game.

The only thing that is overrated is some people's obsession with OBP.

*other things that are overrated: MVP's, clutchness

*I don't think you understand fantasy baseball: onbase pct is usually not a stat category. Those players would make wonderful fantasy players. Our comments preaching the importance of onbase pct have nothing to do with fantasy baseball.

*They can still be overrated and be better than the player the Reds have at the same position...

[thatcoolguy_22]

You don't have to be a good player to amass a lot of rbi's- they rely on the situation and your teammates. If I made a lineup of 8 juan castro's plus Brandon Phillips, and then put brandon phillips in the cleanup spot, how many rbi's would he get? Maybe 50. So would that mean he was not as good of a hitter on that team even if he had the exact same OPS? rbi's are important to win games, but are terrible for judging how good of a hitter someone is. What onbase percentage comes down to is how often a player makes an out. If there are 2 outs and I need to score a run, I want to put a batter at the plate that has the greatest chance of NOT making an out. Therefore, judging by last year, I would rather have Norris Hopper at the plate becuase he had a higher onbase than Brandon Phillips...



This sums everything up perfectly about the RBI stat.


Put David Ortiz or Alex Rodriquez on the Royals or the Nationals circa 2007 and watch their RBI #'s fall quicker than the DJIA in 1929...

Using RBI as the sole means of evaluating a hitter is the equivalent of using a W/L record for a pitcher to debate his ability. Roger Clemens in 2005 was 13-8 with a 1.87 ERA, 1.008 Whip and over 200 IP... Chris Carpenter won the cy young with a 21-5 record 2.83 ERA and a 1.055 stat line (still a great year by modern standards btw). Who was the better pitcher?

[thatcoolguy_22]

*other things that are overrated: MVP's, clutchness

*I don't think you understand fantasy baseball: onbase pct is usually not a stat category. Those players would make wonderful fantasy players. Our comments preaching the importance of onbase pct have nothing to do with fantasy baseball.

*They can still be overrated and be better than the player the Reds have at the same position...


to prove MVP's are over-rated... I present the 1998 AL MVP final results... Look at KGJ finishing in 4th place and not receiving a single 1st place vote... Awards are voted on by writers who, being people, tend to be biased. I will also take the time to remind everyone of Rafael Palmeiro winning a 1st base GG while playing less than 30 games at the position for the year...


1st Max | Season Results
Rk Name Team Place Points Points Share| AB H HR BA OPS SB| W-L IP ERA WHIP SO SV
+--+----------------+----+-----+------+------+-----+-----+---+--+-----+-----+---+------+---+-----+-----+---+--+
1 Juan Gonzalez TEX 21 357 392 0.91 | 606 193 45 .318 .996 2|
2 Nomar Garciaparra BOS 5 232 392 0.59 | 604 195 35 .323 .946 12|
3 Derek Jeter NYY 2 180 392 0.46 | 626 203 19 .324 .865 30|
4 Ken Griffey SEA 0 135 392 0.34 | 633 180 56 .284 .976 20|
4 Mo Vaughn BOS 0 135 392 0.34 | 609 205 40 .337 .993 0|
6 Manny Ramirez CLE 0 127 392 0.32 | 571 168 45 .294 .976 5|
7 Bernie Williams NYY 0 103 392 0.26 | 499 169 26 .339 .997 15|
8 Albert Belle CHW 0 98 392 0.25 | 609 200 49 .328 1.054 6|
9 Alex Rodriguez SEA 0 92 392 0.23 | 686 213 42 .310 .920 46|
10 Ivan Rodriguez TEX 0 50 392 0.13 | 579 186 21 .321 .871 9|

[thatcoolguy_22]

The only thing that is overrated is some people's obsession with OBP.

No one is obsessed with OBP it is a very valuable tool in evaluating a hitter while limiting many variables that are out of his control... unlike RBI's.

[757690]

No one is obsessed with OBP it is a very valuable tool in evaluating a hitter while limiting many variables that are out of his control... unlike RBI's.

First, I think that anyone who thinks that Mike Lowell, Justin Morneau, Carlos Lee, Torii Hunter, Raul Ibanez, Jeff Francouer, Adrian Beltre and Khalil Greene are all overrated simply because they have low OBP's, or who "would rather have Norris Hopper at the plate in pressure sitiuations because he had a higher onbase than Brandon Phillips", is clearly obsessed with OBP.
Clearly thatcoolguy is not, since he thinks that in 98, JR deserved the MVP over Juan Gone, even though he had a lower OBP.

Second, I agree that is a very useful stat in deciding how good a player was. However, I think that other factors are better at deciding how valuable a player was.
I think that it is far more important to determine how valuable a player was, than how good he was. I don't want my team to lead the league in stat categories, I want my team to win.

I remember in the early 80's, when the Reds were terrible, all I cared about was stats, since that was all I could root for. In 1990, I could have cared less about stats, all I cared about was winning.
Considering the Reds success in the last 12 years, I understand posters on this board's obsession with stats.

[*BaseClogger*]

First, I think that anyone who thinks that Mike Lowell, Justin Morneau, Carlos Lee, Torii Hunter, Raul Ibanez, Jeff Francouer, Adrian Beltre and Khalil Greene are all overrated simply because they have low OBP's, or who "would rather have Norris Hopper at the plate in pressure sitiuations because he had a higher onbase than Brandon Phillips", is clearly obsessed with OBP.Clearly thatcoolguy is not, since he thinks that in 98, JR deserved the MVP over Juan Gone, even though he had a lower OBP.

don't take me out of context. You said with two outs. With zero or one out, I would rather have Phillips up because of his superior slugging. But with two outs, I want the guy at the plate least likely to make an out (Hopper).

[757690]

My bad. I apologize.