Reds Middle of the Order Hitters

[RedFan4Life]

You want to know one of the reasons why you can safely assume the Reds will struggle AGAIN in 2008 ? Take a look at the numbers of the 2008 Reds two projected "key" middle of the order hitters .......

hitter 1
2002 .264 BA .211 BA with RISP
2003 .247 BA .114 BA with RISP
2004 .253 BA .329 BA with RISP
2005 .301 BA .263 BA with RISP
2006 .252 BA .216 BA with RISP
2007 .277 BA .244 BA with RISP

hitter 2
2002 .249 BA .208 BA with RISP 170 Ks
2003 .215 BA .170 BA with RISP 126 Ks
2004 .266 BA .239 BA with RISP 195 Ks
2005 .247 BA .248 BA with RISP 168 Ks
2006 .234 BA .221 BA with RISP 194 Ks
2007 .264 BA .241 BA with RISP 165 Ks

FURTHERMORE, these two hitters will combine to use up a third of team payroll. Also Remember the Reds play in one of the most offense-friendly parks in baseball. You look up at the numbers of those two guys who will very likely hit 3/4 or 4/5 in the lineup and it means STRANDED RUNNERS and RUNS LOST for the Reds.

And before someone chimes in about OBP rather than looking at BA and BA with RISP. THESE ARE YOUR MIDDLE OF THE ORDER RBI GUYS. These aren't top of the order or bottom of the order hitters. If these guys take a walk it shifts the onus of driving in runs to the likes of A. Gonzales, D. Ross the streaky Encarnacion? or who knows who else?? You won't win counting on Ross, Gonzales or Encarnacion to do your heavy lifting run producing.

This is awful. Awful Awful Awful. And it's nothing NEW. Reds have 6 years of Evidence right in front of their nose yet they are cued up for a 7th year of the same. Very sad indeed...............

I defy anyone to find another team in baseball with 2 of their 3/4/5 hitters that have numbers as lousy as those above.

- - - -- - - - - -

horrible decision making for the Reds to continue to put their fate in the hands of the Dunn/Griffey walk to their positions tandem. !!!

[*BaseClogger*]

You want to know one of the reasons why you can safely assume the Reds will struggle AGAIN in 2008 ? Take a look at the numbers of the 2008 Reds two projected "key" middle of the order hitters .......

hitter 1
2002 .264 BA .211 BA with RISP
2003 .247 BA .114 BA with RISP
2004 .253 BA .329 BA with RISP
2005 .301 BA .263 BA with RISP
2006 .252 BA .216 BA with RISP
2007 .277 BA .244 BA with RISP

hitter 2
2002 .249 BA .208 BA with RISP 170 Ks
2003 .215 BA .170 BA with RISP 126 Ks
2004 .266 BA .239 BA with RISP 195 Ks
2005 .247 BA .248 BA with RISP 168 Ks
2006 .234 BA .221 BA with RISP 194 Ks
2007 .264 BA .241 BA with RISP 165 Ks

FURTHERMORE, these two hitters will combine to use up a third of team payroll. Also Remember the Reds play in one of the most offense-friendly parks in baseball. You look up at the numbers of those two guys who will very likely hit 3/4 or 4/5 in the lineup and it means STRANDED RUNNERS and RUNS LOST for the Reds.

And before someone chimes in about OBP rather than looking at BA and BA with RISP. THESE ARE YOUR MIDDLE OF THE ORDER RBI GUYS. These aren't top of the order or bottom of the order hitters. If these guys take a walk it shifts the onus of driving in runs to the likes of A. Gonzales, D. Ross the streaky Encarnacion? or who knows who else?? You won't win counting on Ross, Gonzales or Encarnacion to do your heavy lifting run producing.

This is awful. Awful Awful Awful. And it's nothing NEW. Reds have 6 years of Evidence right in front of their nose yet they are cued up for a 7th year of the same. Very sad indeed...............

I defy anyone to find another team in baseball with 2 of their 3/4/5 hitters that have numbers as lousy as those above.

- - - -- - - - - -

horrible decision making for the Reds to continue to put their fate in the hands of the Dunn/Griffey walk to their positions tandem. !!!

does anybody else find this funny?

[DannyB]

Just a rant.....

[kbrake]

It use to be funny a long time ago, its so far past that.

[Bip Roberts]

I wish some of our hitters tried to get hits a little more than just tried to not make outs.

Blah blah blah someone say the point of baseball is to not make outs and then give some crap about the other guys in the line up suck at it.

[RedFan4Life]

yes bip, you know it's coming. ... However, scoring runs is about taking advantage of run scoring opportunities. You don't get awarded runs just for getting guys on base (and not making an out).

Those numbers represent a "failure" of middle of the order rbi guys on this team in their role of driving in would be runs. It represents an inability of those two hitters to "assert" themselves as hitters and drive in teammates

You need more than "not making outs" from your highest paid and middle of the order hitters.

Otherwise, you'll be relying too strongly on the lower paid, lower skilled bottom of the order hitters to drive in important runs and that is a bad plan.................

[Bip Roberts]

It would be great if everyone had a high OBP but it doesnt happen and will never happen

Its pretty obvious Dunn needs to bat 3rd in the line up though

[*BaseClogger*]

I know a solution to this problem: lets try more hit-and-runs and stolen base attempts! :jump:

[RedFan4Life]

every team in baseball has relatively less effective hitters in the bottom third of their lineup... and every other middle of the order type hitter faces the same challenge of trying to get important run scoring hits off a pitcher who is incentivized to pitch you carefully....

but good, successful middle of the order hitters find a way to come up with the RISP hits and keep their batting averages relatively high...

reds ineffective middle of the order hitters don't.........

[Bip Roberts]

Id be happy with Dunn if he had a .300 obp and a .300 average guy would hit 90 homers and poop rbis

[*BaseClogger*]

every team in baseball has relatively less effective hitters in the bottom third of their lineup... and every other middle of the order type hitter faces the same challenge of trying to get important run scoring hits off a pitcher who is incentivized to pitch you carefully....

but good, successful middle of the order hitters find a way to come up with the RISP hits and keep their batting averages relatively high...

reds ineffective middle of the order hitters don't.........

yeah even more frustrating are all those strikeouts Adam Dunn gets! :eek:

[RedFan4Life]

it doesn't really matter all that much where they hit in the 3/4/5/6 slots - same issues are at work. And you can bet dunn and griff will fill two of those slots and it will be problematic...........

[*BaseClogger*]

Id be happy with Dunn if he had a .300 obp and a .300 average guy would hit 90 homers and poop rbis

yeah, heck I wish we had a hitter who's OBP was lower than his batting average! OBP is terrible! RBI's are much more important! Damn you Adam Dunn!

[757690]

I defy anyone to find another team in baseball with 2 of their 3/4/5 hitters that have numbers as lousy as those above.

- - - -- - - - - -

horrible decision making for the Reds to continue to put their fate in the hands of the Dunn/Griffey walk to their positions tandem. !!!



I am not sure if these two are as lousy, but they sure are close.


Joe Morgan

YEAR BA W/RISP
1970 .231
1971 .237
1972 .345
1973 .254
1974 .254


Johnny Bench

YEAR BA W/RISP
1971 .191
1972 .258
1973 .259
1974 .282
1975 .224
1976 .217


The teams they were on must have sucked something awful.

[Bip Roberts]

yeah, heck I wish we had a hitter who's OBP was lower than his batting average! OBP is terrible! RBI's are much more important! Damn you Adam Dunn!

Of course im exaggerating :)

[Bip Roberts]

I am not sure if these two are as lousy, but they sure are close.


Joe Morgan

YEAR BA W/RISP
1970 .231
1971 .237
1972 .345
1973 .254
1974 .254


Johnny Bench

YEAR BA W/RISP
1971 .191
1972 .258
1973 .259
1974 .282
1975 .224
1976 .217


The teams they were on must have sucked something awful.
Now only if we had the rest of the big red machine...

[RedFan4Life]

being that morgan/bench played in an era where pitching ERAs were on average probably a full run lower that first off would be a problem with your comparison...

secondly, morgan hit .290+ for BA in 72, 73 and 74 and bench was .280+ for BA in 2 of those years that would be another problem...

and of course as a footnote morgan/bench were both gold glove caliber defensively which would afford them a little more leeway with regards to their offensive contributions...

[Bip Roberts]

not to mention the size of the parks or the watered down core of talent in todays game due to expansions

[*BaseClogger*]

being that morgan/bench played in an era where pitching ERAs were on average probably a full run lower that first off would be a problem with your comparison...

secondly, morgan hit .290+ for BA in 72, 73 and 74 and bench was .280+ for BA in 2 of those years that would be another problem...

and of course as a footnote morgan/bench were both gold glove caliber defensively which would afford them a little more leeway with regards to their offensive contributions...

Don't forget Morgan was a great baserunner and now is an Emmy Award-Winning sportscaster. That gives him great leeway too. I agree with RedFan4Life, we need to get rid of Dunn and Griffey- they don't hit for enough average. Lets go out and try to find some scrappy players- like Darrin Erstad. Its too bad the Astros beat us to him...

[*BaseClogger*]

not to mention the size of the parks or the watered down core of talent in todays game due to expansions

Yeah I heard the ball is juiced now too- and the players...

[Bip Roberts]

Yeah I heard the ball is juiced now too- and the players...

Im pretty sure players back then were juiced just as much

[Bip Roberts]

Don't forget Morgan was a great baserunner and now is an Emmy Award-Winning sportscaster. That gives him great leeway too. I agree with RedFan4Life, we need to get rid of Dunn and Griffey- they don't hit for enough average. Lets go out and try to find some scrappy players- like Darrin Erstad. Its too bad the Astros beat us to him...

Did he say get rid of them?

[*BaseClogger*]

Did he say get rid of them?

well if he didn't I'll say it first- it is time to get rid of those guys. Can we cut them? They aren't worth their salaries. We'd be better off playing Norris Hopper- he hits for a higher avg...

[Bip Roberts]

well if he didn't I'll say it first- it is time to get rid of those guys. Can we cut them? They aren't worth their salaries. We'd be better off playing Norris Hopper- he hits for a higher avg...

There is the solid responses I expected from this thread.

[RedFan4Life]

no "he" didn't....

furthermore, I'm quite sure morgan and bench didn't use up a third of team payroll.

again, horrible decision making by this team to be using a third of team payroll on two players who together have failed miserably for 6 years as middle of the order rbi guys and either don't play defense well or don't play defense that well anymore.... (depending on which one you speak of).........

horrible decision making

[*BaseClogger*]

There is the solid responses I expected from this thread.

well you know basclogger- he hates stats. What is QWERP anyways? You can't trust computers or the crazy numbers that come out of them- have you guys ever seen terminator? I say we just rely on gut instinct...

[Bip Roberts]

well you know basclogger- he hates stats. What is QWERP anyways? You can't trust computers or the crazy numbers that come out of them- have you guys ever seen terminator? I say we just rely on gut instinct...

But billy beane has made the playoffs

[*BaseClogger*]

But billy beane has made the playoffs

he just got lucky with the Big 3!

[757690]

BA in RISP is not very meaningful. SLG is. That is what you want your middle of the the lineups to excel at, crushing the ball.

Here are Dunn's and Junior's SLG and OPS (in case you believe in that stuff too) W/RISP for the past four years.

Dunn

Year SLG OPS (W/RISP)
2004 .514 .952
2005 .574 .1042
2006 .529 .923
2007 .411 .815


Junior

YEAR SLG OPS (W/RISP)
2004 .699 .1139
2005 .525 .877
2006 .454 .749
2007 .458 .855


Maybe not he best in the league, but good enough to compete IMHO.

[Bip Roberts]

Id rank slugging the least important of the 3 main stats for RISP...

[757690]

Id rank slugging the least important of the 3 main stats for RISP...

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. There are people who think that the world is flat. I say, more power to them.

[Bip Roberts]

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. There are people who think that the world is flat. I say, more power to them.

Yea id just dont see the reasoning that Slugging is the most important stat. Singles scores people that are in scoring position just as much as doubles. Well its not completely true but still

[757690]

Singles drive in runner from 2B about 70% of the time. Doubles, triples and HR's score then 100%.

Doubles also put another RISP, immediately. Puts more pressure on the pitcher and keeps the rally going. ]

Also, chicks dig the long ball.

[Bip Roberts]

Im not saying its not important

[Stephenk29]

While we're at it. Can I assume that I'm a minority when I think RBI's are 10x more important than OBP? I've heard the argument a lot that RBIs are really arbitrary but I'm not sure I care to hear it. I agree with that to a minimal extent but RBIs equal runs scored, which also equals aid to the W column. Dunn and Griffey haven't done that to any special amount from my standpoint. The first post of this thread is more important then some are playing it off to be, I don't think the Reds are the offensive Juggernaut some would like to think it is.

[kbrake]

Adam Dunn and Ken Griffey Jr. (though to a lesser extent) have absolutely nothing to do with why this team has struggled the last decade. Horrible ownership, management, and pitching have had far more to do with it. You think the offense is bad with Dunn in the middle of it, a season without him would be unreal. And sorry I just did care about BA. You guys want to mock people who believe in OBP and avoiding outs thats fine but numbers dont lie.

[*BaseClogger*]

Is there any way we can use Wins to measure hitters? That would be soo much better...

(turn off sarcasm) by the way: singles are a part of slugging percentage (sarcasm back on)

[Vada Pinson Fan]

The Reds for the recent past have been a strikeout-laden team. You can't expect to have a good BA if you can't make consistent contact let alone have a good BA w/ RISP. Add to that is the fact how long it was before Adam Dunn even had his first sacrifice fly as a Red. We still need to remember Adam Dunn is a football player still learning his craft as a baseball player. And Ken Griffey Jr. is so beat up from his injuries, I no longer expect him to be a clutch hitter on a consistent basis and Dunn never was. Although I do agree- where would we be without Dunn and Griffey? We need them. For those of you wanting Griffey and Dunn off the Reds team, you might just get your wish in 2009. The Reds have long needed contact hitters but the pitching his been so poor overall, it hasn't been a priority.

I wish we had Bill James and his Baseball Abstract on the Reds payroll instead of the Red Sox. I look forward to having Jay Bruce and Joey Votto quickly become our 3rd and 4th place hitters (moving Dunn to 5th and Griffey if still here in '09 to 6th). Trouble with that is once stars become established, let's say Jr. for instance, it would seem to take an act of Congress to move him out of his celebrated #3 spot in the order. Hopefully Dusty sees who is productive and who isn't and alters the batting order accordingly, but I'm not holding my breath on it.

One other thing I wanted to add was this- For anyone old enough to remember, do you recall when Johnny Bench started holding his bat (during his swing) with his left, little finger around the knob of the bat? I tried doing the same thing when I was a lot younger and it greatly reduced the power I had in my swing. Causing an imbalance in my swing and producing more pop-ups. Bench didn't do this during his early years nor his MVP years, but after that he did and his stats were reduced considerably. Yes, I know he has big hands but I'm 6'4" and I do too but I'm definitely not comparing myself to Bench. Just an observation.

[Stephenk29]

I've always notice how Moises Alou did that too. I never could understand what that did. I've tried quite a bit myself out of curiosity, yesterday even which is kinda funny. It's very awkward,

[Vada Pinson Fan]

I've always notice how Moises Alou did that too. I never could understand what that did. I've tried quite a bit myself out of curiosity, yesterday even which is kinda funny. It's very awkward,

Exactly, it is awkward. I'd love to ask Bench why he did that. Probably say it felt comfortable.

I knew others did too, although certainly not many, Stephen.

[Bip Roberts]

Why is it so hard for people to even remotely talk about this subject

[*BaseClogger*]

Why is it so hard for people to even remotely talk about this subject

Because BA is basically worthless? Becuase the original post was a classic rant? Becuase he included Dunn's strikeout numbers as if they mean something? Because you guys dismiss OBP? Because one of you called RBI's 10x more important than OBP? Because you want guys that don't walk period (.300 avg, .300 OBP)? Because Morgan/Bench won Gold Gloves so we can dismiss their BA/RISP? Because of the claim that it is horrible decision making that Dunn/Griffey make up 1/3 of our payroll? Because you shrugged off SLG? Gee, I don't know... why is it hard for us to take this discussion seriously? Is it because you won't take simple statistics like OBP and SLG seriously? :explode:

[Bip Roberts]

I never dismissed OBP with out it being obvious sarcasm. Apparently you missed that when i even stated it was sarcasm.

Where did i shrug off slugging and refuse to take it seriously? You are just making crap up now.

RBIS and OBP are not even comparable.

Ive just said I wish our hitters got more hits in those situations.

[*BaseClogger*]

I never dismissed OBP with out it being obvious sarcasm. Apparently you missed that when i even stated it was sarcasm.

Where did i shrug off slugging and refuse to take it seriously? You are just making crap up now.

RBIS and OBP are not even comparable.

Ive just said I wish our hitters got more hits in those situations.


Id rank slugging the least important of the 3 main stats for RISP...


I wish some of our hitters tried to get hits a little more than just tried to not make outs.

Blah blah blah someone say the point of baseball is to not make outs and then give some crap about the other guys in the line up suck at it.


While we're at it. Can I assume that I'm a minority when I think RBI's are 10x more important than OBP? I've heard the argument a lot that RBIs are really arbitrary but I'm not sure I care to hear it. I agree with that to a minimal extent but RBIs equal runs scored, which also equals aid to the W column. Dunn and Griffey haven't done that to any special amount from my standpoint. The first post of this thread is more important then some are playing it off to be, I don't think the Reds are the offensive Juggernaut some would like to think it is.

[Bip Roberts]

So saying something is the least important of the 3 stats means i completely think its worthless and a joke and shouldn't even be a stat?

Yes i said i wish out players tried to hit the ball a little more instead of just not trying to make outs.

OBP and RBIs aren't comparable.

So thanks for just quoting me and replying with more quotes that I responded too the post before.

[*BaseClogger*]

So saying something is the least important of the 3 stats means i completely think its worthless and a joke and shouldn't even be a stat?

Yes i said i wish out players tried to hit the ball a little more instead of just not trying to make outs.

OBP and RBIs aren't comparable.

So thanks for just quoting me and replying with more quotes that I responded too the post before.

First- yeah saying BA is better than SLG is saying SLG is less than worthless since BA is worthless

Second- you are basically endorsing a guy risking making an out instead of just taking a walk. That doesn't make sense. If every guy walked, we would score infinite runs. It's pretty simple...

Third- I originally said one of you (Stephen) called RBI's more important than OBP, not you Bip. So stop taking that comment personally...

[Bip Roberts]

How is BA worthless?

Im not endorsing a guy risking to make an out, I'm saying i want a more aggressive at bats because not everyone in our line up have the abilities as a batter like Dunn and Griffey. If everyone walked it would be great but this is reality and not everyone walks just like not everyone in the line up can hit the ball a mile. I wouldnt shun Ryan Freel for having a low average and high OBP, but forgive me if id like our big power guys to make a lot more contact. If that drops the OBP a little im ok with that. Im not asking for them to become .298 hitters with the OBP dropping to like .314. Lots of other middle of the line up guys raise the BA and most see a drop in OBP in those RISP situations. Its more about taking advantage of runs that are on the bases than hoping everyone in the line up can perform to a unreasonable level.

I'm not taking the comment personally at all, im just saying they arent comparable.

[*BaseClogger*]

How is BA worthless?

Im not endorsing a guy risking to make an out, I'm saying i want a more aggressive at bats because not everyone in our line up have the abilities as a batter like Dunn and Griffey. If everyone walked it would be great but this is reality and not everyone walks just like not everyone in the line up can hit the ball a mile. I wouldnt shun Ryan Freel for having a low average and high OBP, but forgive me if id like our big power guys to make a lot more contact. If that drops the OBP a little im ok with that. Im not asking for them to become .298 hitters with the OBP dropping to like .314. Lots of other middle of the line up guys raise the BA and most see a drop in OBP in those RISP situations. Its more about taking advantage of runs that are on the bases than hoping everyone in the line up can perform to a unreasonable level.

I'm not taking the comment personally at all, im just saying they arent comparable.

Middle of the order hitters get pitched around in these situations. That is why BA is worthless and OBP is much more important.

[Bip Roberts]

Middle of the line everywhere get pitched around but they still some how raise batting averages...

Most raise BA and have the slugging percentage drop while OBP is kinda a wash, some raise it some lower it.

[*BaseClogger*]

Middle of the line everywhere get pitched around but they still some how raise batting averages...

Most raise BA and have the slugging percentage drop while OBP is kinda a wash, some raise it some lower it.

so why do you advocate dropping SLG in favor of BA?

[Bip Roberts]

so why do you advocate dropping SLG in favor of BA?

Because with a guy on 2nd or 3rd a hit normally means he scores... Its not that im saying a big drop in slugging is needed im just saying its less important because of the situation. If they raised the BA and raised the slugging even better. Its just that most middle of the line up HR threat betters tend to raise BA and see a drop in Slugging while OBP goes either way.

[kbrake]

Why is it so hard for people to even remotely talk about this subject

Because we have been over it 1000 times before and it never changes. Numbers say OBP is more important to scoring runs than BA. Its simple yet some people cant get it.

[757690]

Middle of the line everywhere get pitched around but they still some how raise batting averages...

Most raise BA and have the slugging percentage drop while OBP is kinda a wash, some raise it some lower it.

The question is not what most middle line up hitters do, but what do you want them to do?
I want my 3-5 hitters to have a high SLG W/RISP first and foremost. That will drive in the most runs, keep pressure on the pitchers, and keep rallies going longer.
Because the get pitched around so much, I would then want them to have a high OBP which combines hits and walks. So if they still get hits, their OBP will still be high.
I want them to have a high BA, but that number is better represented in their OBP.
So BA is important, but is trumped by OPB, since OBP includes BA..

[Bip Roberts]

Because we have been over it 1000 times before and it never changes. Numbers say OBP is more important to scoring runs than BA. Its simple yet some people cant get it.

We are talking RISP and not in general. OBP is going to important always. We are comparing other MLB middle of the line up guys and their production in comparison to our low BA high OBP guys. There is a reason a large portion of other middle of the line up guys raise their BA, most lower their slugging and keep the OBP around the same.

[Bip Roberts]

The question is not what most middle line up hitters do, but what do you want them to do?
I want my 3-5 hitters to have a high SLG W/RISP first and foremost. That will drive in the most runs, keep pressure on the pitchers, and keep rallies going longer.
Because the get pitched around so much, I would then want them to have a high OBP which combines hits and walks. So if they still get hits, their OBP will still be high.
I want them to have a high BA, but that number is better represented in their OBP.
So BA is important, but is trumped by OPB, since OBP includes BA..

Well I guess every GM in baseball wishes they had our low average high obp and high slugging guys over their high average high obp and high slugging counter parts. Its not that we are bashing Griffey and Dunn even, its just that other guys in the majors are much better at the RISP situation.

OBP on the grand scheme of thing trumps BA but BA is still very important.

[*BaseClogger*]

We are talking RISP and not in general. OBP is going to important always. We are comparing other MLB middle of the line up guys and their production in comparison to our low BA high OBP guys. There is a reason a large portion of other middle of the line up guys raise their BA, most lower their slugging and keep the OBP around the same.

can you maybe post or link a couple of these examples- it's hard to prove points without evidence...

[Stephenk29]

I think everyone agrees all stats are valuable in grading certain aspect of the game. I don't think anyone shrugs off any stats either. Some put more weight on certain stats opposed to others. Its a pretty simple difference of opinion. Message boards make all statements look like your screaming them for some reason.

[Bip Roberts]

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/stats/bycategory?cat=Batting&conference=NL&sort=6

Just go down the list since we have to agree that most of the high homer guys are the middle of the line up hitters. View the situation stats of each guy. Save me some copy and paste hassles.

[Vada Pinson Fan]

Whew! Just read all of this thread and now I have a headache, lol, but it was two passionate baseball fans defending their position and did a nice job of doing it. :)

[Gunner44]

1/3 third of the payroll is fine for me, besides phillips is the only other player worth near that amout in the starting 9. I dont see any other players for their respective price any better or cheaper

[Nasty_Boy]

One other thing I wanted to add was this- For anyone old enough to remember, do you recall when Johnny Bench started holding his bat (during his swing) with his left, little finger around the knob of the bat? I tried doing the same thing when I was a lot younger and it greatly reduced the power I had in my swing. Causing an imbalance in my swing and producing more pop-ups. Bench didn't do this during his early years nor his MVP years, but after that he did and his stats were reduced considerably. Yes, I know he has big hands but I'm 6'4" and I do too but I'm definitely not comparing myself to Bench. Just an observation.


I played four years of college baseball and I held the knob in the middle of my left (bottom) hand. The reason I started doing this was to increase my power... dropping down on the end of the bat created more whip but without strong hands you wouldn't have great bat control. Its definately not for everybody, but I'm sure most guys that start doing this are doing it to increase their power.