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View Full Version : Reds vs Rays 3-23-08



Matt700wlw
03-23-2008, 11:16 AM
Rays

1 Akinori Iwamura 2B
13 Carl Crawford LF
23 Carlos Pena 1B
2 B.J. Upton CF
32 Eric Hinske RF
30 Dioner Navarro C
8 Jason Bartlett SS
29 Joel Guzman 3B
22 Matt Garza RH


Reds

23 Corey Patterson CF
19 Joey Votto 1B
3 Ken Griffey Jr. RF
4 Brandon Phillips 2B
44 Adam Dunn LF
28 Edwin Encarnacion 3B
7 Juan Castro SS
17 Javier Valentin C
77 Johnny Cueto RH

OnBaseMachine
03-23-2008, 11:17 AM
I love seeing Votto in that 2-spot.

TeamBoone
03-23-2008, 11:19 AM
Unless this was started yesterday, you have the wrong date in the Title.

What time does today's game start?

OnBaseMachine
03-23-2008, 11:19 AM
1:05

Matt700wlw
03-23-2008, 11:19 AM
I'm an idiot..I'll change it.

First pitch is 1:05

RedsManRick
03-23-2008, 11:32 AM
I'm shocked that Dusty flipped Votto and Castro. Shocked.

Tommyjohn25
03-23-2008, 11:47 AM
Where the heck has Keppinger been?

Matt700wlw
03-23-2008, 11:53 AM
Other stuff, from Trent:

Bullpen: LHP Kent Mercker, LHP Jeremy Affeldt, LHP Bill Bray, RHP
Jared Burton, RHP Todd Coffey, RHP Jim Brower and RHP Mike Lincoln.



* Alex Gonzalez is off crutches, but is not expected to start running for 10 days, meaning he'll miss Opening Day for sure.

* David Ross is expected to catch 5 innings and make 5 plate appearances in a minor league game today. He played in a Class A minor league game on Friday, catching four innings, going 2-for-3 with a homer and two walks.

* Matt Belisle threw 30-pitch bullpens yesterday and today without complaint.

TeamBoone
03-23-2008, 11:56 AM
Where the heck has Keppinger been?

I believe he was hurt, but not seriously (pulled something maybe?).

Matt700wlw
03-23-2008, 12:58 PM
Cueto is on about a 90 pitch count today

Matt700wlw
03-23-2008, 01:06 PM
Razzle 'em and dazzle 'em, Johnny!

Matt700wlw
03-23-2008, 01:06 PM
Leadoff double

Matt700wlw
03-23-2008, 01:09 PM
Now a walk....

OnBaseMachine
03-23-2008, 01:10 PM
I had a bad feeling about today's start. He's due for a bad one.

Matt700wlw
03-23-2008, 01:10 PM
3-0 Tampa....Pena launches one.

Chip R
03-23-2008, 01:10 PM
Cueto just gave up a 3 run bomb to pena.

Matt700wlw
03-23-2008, 01:11 PM
I wonder if a rough day will effect his chances at making the opening day rotation?

OnBaseMachine
03-23-2008, 01:11 PM
I wonder if a rough day will effect his chances at making the opening day rotation?

If the Reds are smart it won't.

He was due for a clunker. Better now than the regular season.

Matt700wlw
03-23-2008, 01:12 PM
True...get it out of his system now.

Matt700wlw
03-23-2008, 01:13 PM
Now 2 straight outs

OnBaseMachine
03-23-2008, 01:13 PM
Volquez's only bad start this spring was also against the Rays.

Matt700wlw
03-23-2008, 01:15 PM
Another walk

Chip R
03-23-2008, 01:17 PM
Right now Cueto can't find the plate with a compass and a map.

Matt700wlw
03-23-2008, 01:17 PM
.....and another walk on pitch 25...

dougdirt
03-23-2008, 01:19 PM
This isn't looking so good so far

Matt700wlw
03-23-2008, 01:20 PM
Wow...Cueto is getting rocked.

5-0 Tampa

OnBaseMachine
03-23-2008, 01:21 PM
I really really hope the Reds are smart enough to not judge on one bad start.

Matt700wlw
03-23-2008, 01:21 PM
His command is awful today....he's about to walk another one.

Chip R
03-23-2008, 01:22 PM
He might reach his pitch limit this inning.

Matt700wlw
03-23-2008, 01:23 PM
Friday will be his real test...how does he do after coming off a day like today

OnBaseMachine
03-23-2008, 01:24 PM
He's pitching on five days rest today as opposed to the regular four but that shouldn't really matter, he just didn't have it today.

Matt700wlw
03-23-2008, 01:24 PM
And there's the 5th walk...his day is done.

mth123
03-23-2008, 01:25 PM
Guess we'll get to see the entire bullpen competition today.

Kc61
03-23-2008, 01:26 PM
Maybe an opening for Homer B.

Cueto still has the inside track, but he walked five guys in the first inning. He needs to do better next time.

dougdirt
03-23-2008, 01:27 PM
I really really hope the Reds are smart enough to not judge on one bad start.

It depends on why he pitched bad. Things that we can't see on the tv (because its not on) or listening on the radio.

I don't think the Reds are going to make a decision based one on game, but if they were ever questioning bringing him up despite how good he had looked, this game surely doesn't help that.

OnBaseMachine
03-23-2008, 01:27 PM
Maybe an opening for Homer B.

Cueto still has the inside track, but he walked five guys in the first inning. He needs to do better next time.

Cueto has dominated all spring while Homer has been awful all spring. I would hope one bad outing would not cloud the Reds judgement.

Matt700wlw
03-23-2008, 01:29 PM
I just fear something like this will be enough to have them go with a more "veteran direction" -- that seems to be what they're doing these days despite clamoring about how great the prospects are.

Like I said, Friday should be a good indicator on how good Cueto's head is.

mth123
03-23-2008, 01:31 PM
41 pitches in an inning.!!! He's being hailed as the savior and he's been good enough all spring for this not to effect anything, but going past so far past 30 pitches in an inning is criminal. No matter how well he's done, he's still a 22 year old kid.

dougdirt
03-23-2008, 01:31 PM
Cueto has dominated all spring while Homer has been awful all spring. I would hope one bad outing would not cloud the Reds judgement.

Homer wasn't awful the other day. Cueto got rocked harder today than Bailey has any time this spring. Its one game and Cueto still should get the shot before Bailey.... but today was really, really ugly for Cueto.

OnBaseMachine
03-23-2008, 01:33 PM
Homer wasn't awful the other day. Cueto got rocked harder today than Bailey has any time this spring. Its one game and Cueto still should get the shot before Bailey.... but today was really, really ugly for Cueto.

Homer had a couple bad clunkers. And while the one run allowed the other was nice, the 2 walks and 0 K's in 4 innings wasn't impressive at all.

princeton
03-23-2008, 01:38 PM
I really really hope the Reds are smart enough to not judge on one bad start.

:confused:

Reds have to do what's best for the kid, not what's best for Dusty or today's fans.

it's up to Reds FO to put the kid on a path to success, whether on the short term that's long or short relief, ML rotation, or more minor league time.

His long term success will ultimately help the team.

mth123
03-23-2008, 01:39 PM
This outing shouldn't remove Cueto from the rotation, but if it does Bailey is not the answer. Belisle threw 30 Pitches both yesterday and today. A 50 Pitch outing on Tuesday and maybe 70 pitches on Sunday in a minor league game and he'd be ready to go 5 as the 5th starter.

OnBaseMachine
03-23-2008, 01:40 PM
Uh-oh Cueto

Johnny Cueto hit a little bump in the road.

He allowed five runs on three hits in two-thirds of inning. He simply could not command any of his pitches. He walked five, including pitcher Matt Garza on four pitches.

He gave up a double to Akinori Iwamura to start the game. He walked Carl Crawford on five pitches. Carlos Pena hit one out to left-center. Cueto then got a pair of groundouts. But he walked the nerxt two hitters. Joel Guzman followed with a two-run double. Cueto then walked Garza. When Iwamura walked, Dusty Baker came out and got Cueto.

41 pitches/18 strikes.

http://frontier.cincinnati.com/blogs/redsinsider/

Matt700wlw
03-23-2008, 01:44 PM
Hopefully the Reds brought enough pitchers with them today...

mth123
03-23-2008, 01:45 PM
Hopefully the Reds brought enough pitchers with them today...

Paging Mr. Capellan. Mr. Capellan please report to the major league field.

dougdirt
03-23-2008, 01:45 PM
Homer had a couple bad clunkers. And while the one run allowed the other was nice, the 2 walks and 0 K's in 4 innings wasn't impressive at all.

4 innings of 2 walks and no K's that leads to 1 run may not be impressive, but it was certainly effective. In comparison to what just happened today, it was downright brilliant. Bailey has had some bad games this spring, nothing close to as ugly as what just happened with Cueto though.

I would love to know if it was a release point issue or something else mechanical or if it was just one of those days.

reds44
03-23-2008, 01:48 PM
41 pitches and 18 strikes? Wow

RedsManRick
03-23-2008, 01:49 PM
I'm expecting injury rumors before the game ends.

edabbs44
03-23-2008, 01:52 PM
Cueto has been getting a bit too hyped. He is still a kid and, while he may dazzle us with his "stuff", we have to remember that he is still a youngster. The proposed rotation, while talented, is a bit green and is not the experienced type you really expect to take a team to the playoffs.

IMO, this team isn't primed for the playoffs but they have a really good shot 2-3 years down the line. Today is just a taste of why. I've been saying it for a while now but I think the FO has a great opportunity in front of them. I just hope they prepare wisely and not hurt the future for the present.

dougdirt
03-23-2008, 01:52 PM
I'm expecting injury rumors before the game ends.

Hate to say it.... but the first thing that went through my mind was 'maybe he has been overthrowing all spring and hurt something'. Hope to God I am wrong, but its the first thing I thought about when I saw his walks so high.

Kc61
03-23-2008, 01:56 PM
What I don't understand is why Cueto is supposedly the third starter. At best, he should be the fifth starter on a pitch count with his turn skipped on off days. He is only 22 and should be broken in slowly. Volquez should be the third starter, he's more seasoned. And Cueto needs to be protected from overuse.

mth123
03-23-2008, 02:02 PM
What I don't understand is why Cueto is supposedly the third starter. At best, he should be the fifth starter on a pitch count with his turn skipped on off days. He is only 22 and should be broken in slowly. Volquez should be the third starter, he's more seasoned. And Cueto needs to be protected from overuse.

I agree with the theory, just not the implementation. I pitch him between Harang and Arroyo so the bullpen is relatively rested when he pitches because Harang went deep into the game the day before and Arroyo the next day can go an extra inning if needed. I also think this is why they need to have multi-inning pitchers. Including not only Coffey types that can go two, but also a long man that can go 4 or 5. I suppose Stanton's making the team by default prevents the team from carrying the right guys to achieve that.

Falls City Beer
03-23-2008, 02:05 PM
I'm not worried short term at all.

But it's why I've hammered on the point that Belisle is very, very important to this club. Anytime you have two rookies needing to throw at least 140-150 MLB innings apiece, you need depth. MLB innings are very different beasts from MiLB innings.

A big NO to trading Belisle for a catcher.

mth123
03-23-2008, 02:08 PM
I'm not worried short term at all.

But it's why I've hammered on the point that Belisle is very, very important to this club. Anytime you have two rookies needing to throw at least 140-150 MLB innings apiece, you need depth. MLB innings are very different beasts from MiLB innings.

A big NO to trading Belisle for a catcher.

Agree completely. Unless its a lopsided deal in the Reds favor, I keep as many guys capable of providing starts in the pipeline as possible. 162 Games is a long season.

reds44
03-23-2008, 02:08 PM
I'm not worried short term at all.

But it's why I've hammered on the point that Belisle is very, very important to this club. Anytime you have two rookies needing to throw at least 140-150 MLB innings apiece, you need depth. MLB innings are very different beasts from MiLB innings.

A big NO to trading Belisle for a catcher.
Agreed. I think this is an example of some of the growing pains you will see Cueto and Volquez. Cueto has had superb control throughout his minor league career, so his control issues today do not really worry me. Obviously he now needs to reboun with a solid start Friday.

The Reds need a long man in the pen, like Belisle or Fogg, for days like today.

dougdirt
03-23-2008, 02:10 PM
Agreed. I think this is an example of some of the growing pains you will see Cueto and Volquez. Cueto has had superb control throughout his minor league career, so his control issues today do not really worry me. Obviously he now needs to reboun with a solid start Friday.

The Reds need a long man in the pen, like Belisle or Fogg, for days like today.
Heck, even Affeldt could provide 3-4 innings in a blow out.

*BaseClogger*
03-23-2008, 02:15 PM
paging Aronchis...


* David Ross is expected to catch 5 innings and make 5 plate appearances in a minor league game today. He played in a Class A minor league game on Friday, catching four innings, going 2-for-3 with a homer and two walks.

me likey

Kc61
03-23-2008, 02:19 PM
I agree with the theory, just not the implementation. I pitch him between Harang and Arroyo so the bullpen is relatively rested when he pitches because Harang went deep into the game the day before and Arroyo the next day can go an extra inning if needed. I also think this is why they need to have multi-inning pitchers. Including not only Coffey types that can go two, but also a long man that can go 4 or 5. I suppose Stanton's making the team by default prevents the team from carrying the right guys to achieve that.

My point is that Cueto should be treated as a "fifth starter" with a pitch count, skipped turns, handled very carefully. It doesn't mean he has to pitch in any particular slot -- he can pitch between Harang and Arroyo or any time it makes sense -- but he needs to be brought along very slowly.

I strongly agree on multi-inning relievers, except if Stanton is on the team he can pitch multiple inning outings sometimes. He has done it and can do it. How effective he will be this year is a different question.

icehole3
03-23-2008, 02:25 PM
Pena clobbered a high changeup, sounds like he just didnt have his good control.

Falls City Beer
03-23-2008, 02:26 PM
Can I again make the point of the necessity of picking up a seasoned #2 or #3 starter this offseason.

There simply isn't enough pitching depth in the universe. Not on the Red Sox, not on the Yankees, nowhere. Every team is a bad delivery away from scrambling to plug the Hoover Dam.

Aronchis
03-23-2008, 02:27 PM
Cueto may have just had a bit of deadarm ala Bailey(though Bailey's is more "dead leg"). It happens.

The worse alternative is he is gassed from overthrowing to make the rotation.

reds44
03-23-2008, 02:28 PM
Cueto may have just had a bit of deadarm ala Bailey(though Bailey's is more "dead leg"). It happens.

:eek:
:thumbup::thumbup:

mth123
03-23-2008, 02:29 PM
Cueto may have just had a bit of deadarm ala Bailey(though Bailey's is more "dead leg"). It happens.

The worse alternative is he is gassed from overthrowing to make the rotation.

If that's true, then a 41 pitch outing should rest him enough to bounce back. Assuming of course that throwing 41 pitches all in one inning didn't shred his shoulder.

jojo
03-23-2008, 02:32 PM
Homer wasn't awful the other day. Cueto got rocked harder today than Bailey has any time this spring. Its one game and Cueto still should get the shot before Bailey.... but today was really, really ugly for Cueto.

Ya. Today was about as sucky as suck can suck.

mth123
03-23-2008, 02:36 PM
Dunn up with the bases loaded. Even a base clogging walk would produce a run.

redsrule2500
03-23-2008, 02:37 PM
This is sad, brings realism to the whole cueto situation.

OnBaseMachine
03-23-2008, 02:38 PM
Bray threw another scoreless inning.

TeamBoone
03-23-2008, 02:41 PM
I'm wondering if being more aggresive early in the count is screwing up Adam's head. Ever since that came to light in the media, he hasn't hit squat. Sometimes you just shouldn't try to change someone.

OnBaseMachine
03-23-2008, 02:52 PM
Bray: 2 IP, 1 H, 0 R, 0 BB, 1 K

Bray has now thrown six innings of shutout ball this spring with only two hits allowed and four strikeouts.

dougdirt
03-23-2008, 03:01 PM
I know its a real small sample, but Bray is really impressing so far this spring

reds44
03-23-2008, 03:01 PM
Votto has reached the mendoza line! That puts him above Dunn (.175) and Edwin (.184)

OnBaseMachine
03-23-2008, 03:03 PM
I know its a real small sample, but Bray is really impressing so far this spring

Yep. I think he's going to have a big year for us if he stays healthy.

reds44
03-23-2008, 03:41 PM
Burton has given up a run and 3 hits in 2/3rds of an inning.

Matt700wlw
03-23-2008, 03:48 PM
:jump:

Andy Phillips

Matt700wlw
03-23-2008, 03:59 PM
:valentin:

:jump:

Reds lead 9-7!

Matt700wlw
03-23-2008, 04:05 PM
Drew Stubbs playing now

Chip R
03-23-2008, 04:12 PM
Rays tie it up off Affeldt.

Matt700wlw
03-23-2008, 04:12 PM
Now it's tied again...Affeldt bombs out of the pen.


This game MAY end by opening day

Kc61
03-23-2008, 04:19 PM
Has Affeldt had a good inning this spring?

Matt700wlw
03-23-2008, 04:22 PM
Justin James, the PTBNL in the Coats deal, is now pitching

Matt700wlw
03-23-2008, 04:23 PM
Has Affeldt had a good inning this spring?

Don't think so

Chip R
03-23-2008, 04:46 PM
Reds give up the go ahead run in the 9th and had 2 on in their half of the 9th but could not score.

gm
03-23-2008, 04:54 PM
Hate to say it.... but the first thing that went through my mind was 'maybe he has been overthrowing all spring and hurt something'. Hope to God I am wrong, but its the first thing I thought about when I saw his walks so high.

Ditto. How many times is "loss of command" linked with elbow/labrum issues? Hopefully it's just a dead arm, or perhaps JC "eased off the pedal" (mentally) when he heard he had the rotation made?

Volquez should be the #5 starter, he's the only one with bullpen experience, and with several days off in April the 5th starter usually gets skipped over and doubles as a long man.

Don't like Belisle as a long man, his back couldn't handle the bullpen the last time it was tried. Matt should remain a starter, either in Cincy or AAA.

flyer85
03-23-2008, 05:24 PM
Cueto had a bad day ... don't really see that the Reds have other options(Affeldt was a complete failure and Belisle is hurt).

OnBaseMachine
03-23-2008, 05:26 PM
I was reading Trent's blog and a poster on there said every year Cueto has a two game stretch early in the season where he always walks a bunch of hitters. Last start he walked three in four innings and this today with five walks in 0.2 innings. I'm not really sure what would cause that. Coincidence or dead arm possibly.

reds44
03-23-2008, 05:33 PM
I was reading Trent's blog and a poster on there said every year Cueto has a two game stretch early in the season where he always walks a bunch of hitters. Last start he walked three in four innings and this today with five walks in 0.2 innings. I'm not really sure what would cause that. Coincidence or dead arm possibly.
I'm thinking dead arm if it seems to happen every year.

Tommyjohn25
03-23-2008, 06:43 PM
I'm thinking dead arm if it seems to happen every year.

:pray:

edabbs44
03-23-2008, 08:04 PM
Burton has given up a run and 3 hits in 2/3rds of an inning.

If anyone should be headed to AAA it is this guy.

traderumor
03-23-2008, 08:19 PM
Ditto. How many times is "loss of command" linked with elbow/labrum issues? Hopefully it's just a dead arm, or perhaps JC "eased off the pedal" (mentally) when he heard he had the rotation made?

Volquez should be the #5 starter, he's the only one with bullpen experience, and with several days off in April the 5th starter usually gets skipped over and doubles as a long man.

Don't like Belisle as a long man, his back couldn't handle the bullpen the last time it was tried. Matt should remain a starter, either in Cincy or AAA.My goodness. It is a bad start in ST.

LincolnparkRed
03-23-2008, 10:17 PM
My goodness. It is a bad start in ST.

last time I checked there wasn't a pitcher that went 33-0 for the season. Everyone has a clunker now and then. For the good ones they just happen a little less often.

traderumor
03-24-2008, 08:59 AM
last time I checked there wasn't a pitcher that went 33-0 for the season. Everyone has a clunker now and then. For the good ones they just happen a little less often.You mean his arm's not falling off? Whew! What a relief. ;)

puca
03-24-2008, 12:04 PM
That kind of bad is a concern. I don't see how anyone can deny it.

Apparently there is a history with Cueto, but the last thing I expected out of a pitcher with such good control is for him to be unable to find the strike zone. Hopefully it was just one of those things and he will bounce back nicely in his next start.

Falls City Beer
03-24-2008, 06:28 PM
That kind of bad is a concern. I don't see how anyone can deny it.

Apparently there is a history with Cueto, but the last thing I expected out of a pitcher with such good control is for him to be unable to find the strike zone. Hopefully it was just one of those things and he will bounce back nicely in his next start.

The thing about young pitchers though is that often when one bad thing goes wrong for them, then the wheels come off blindingly fast. Like it or not, we're not talking about a cagey 30 year old Arroyo who will scratch his head, talk himself into shape after surrendering a three run bomb in the first; we're talking about a kid who knows that every pitch he's making is being scrutinized like a lab sample.