Fire Dusty!!!

[OldRed1966]

Some of Dusty's moves are mind boggling. Let's see. Well Freel had 3 hits on Wednesday, and is hitting .321, but I've really got to get Corey and his .280 OBP into the lineup. Votto is hitting .308, and he's only 24 years old, but I'm sure he's tired, and yesterday's day off wasn't enough. I better give him an extra day of rest. :thumbdown

[Rounding Third]

Dusty: "The middle of the lineup isn't producing. And when they don't produce we can't win"

Dusty's Lineup: The exact same minus the best 7th hole hitter this year.

[ChatterRed]

You beat me to it. Nothing like running the "struggling" lineup out there tonight. What gives?

[Kingspoint]

Fire Dusty!

[RedR8R]

I concur. Fire Dusty!

[CWRed]

Yes, do it now. Complete lack of understading the game and why his lineups are foolish.

[big boy]

What is the deal with Dusty's man-love for Patterson? He got him signed to a huge deal and now plays him when there are better alternatives.

[NDReds9]

I have Dusty Baker. He knows baseball but can't translate it into success. Put him back on Baseball Tonight.

R O N O E S T E R.

[NDReds9]

The day Corey Patterson and Jerry Hairston were signed is the day that Dusty should have been fired. He's an ignoramus. I really want to meet him --- I would strangle him and bite his ears off.

[Kingspoint]

Can the Corey Patterson screwup please come to an end?

As I said at the beginning of the year, Dusty Baker would play Corey Patterson enough during April and May to end the 2008 season of the Cincinnati REDS before it began.

[ChatterRed]

3 hits. That's 3 more than I expected with that lineup.

[Rounding Third]

If only we had a player that is much cheaper than Corey Patterson and can hit so much better. If only...

[Fullboat]

A big name manager that probably makes more then are last three managers combined.
HA good luck with that.:lol:

[Jefferson24]

Well there is always next year, but i feel like I'm running out of patience. I'm sure I'm not the only one. I didn't follow the 90 season, I was in college. I did watch the playoffs though. I'm about to the point where I'll check the season ending standings and then make plans. That equals a big loss in revenue by the way.

[Natty Redlocks]

You guys are just jealous you're not a baseball jeenyus like Dusty

[BUTLER REDSFAN]

I'm so glad we have Jerry Baker,uh I mean Bob Nerron,uh I mean Dave Boone,Uh I mean Dusty Krivsky, uh, I mean Walt O' Brian....I cant remember who's who.

[durl]

It's still early. Still, I can't help but think that someone in the front office is thinking that Dusty was supposed to have his team performing better than this. Slumps are to be expected but it's time for this one to be over. Why spend $80 million to be in the basement when $20 million will accomplish the same thing?

And since Castellini has shown that he's willing to throw out a GM after 2 seasons, will he send Dusty packing after one season if they finish in last place? One has to think it's a possibility.

[757690]

Last year the Yankees were 9-14, the Rockies 11-17 and the Cubs were 22-31 and they all made the playoffs.
The 1975 Reds were 20-20 and they won 108 games and the World Series.

You guys understand it's a 162 game season?

[mlbfan30]

Last year the Yankees were 9-14, the Rockies 11-17 and the Cubs were 22-31 and they all made the playoffs.
The 1975 Reds were 20-20 and they won 108 games and the World Series.

You guys understand it's a 162 game season?

Do you understand the constant mismanaging will never change with Baker. Usually when a team struggles something different will happen whether its getting another player, switching the lineup, have better coaching, etc.

Baker is going to do nothing or very little, then complain about not scoring runs like he did today. Also I'm going to continue saying this... his swing away philosophy is going to ruin several players on the team. I'm most worried about Votto. When a team doesn't go deep into counts, it means the SP stays in the game longer, and it will make it harder to score. The more pitches that are thrown, the higher probability the pitcher makes a mistake.

[757690]

Do you understand the constant mismanaging will never change with Baker. Usually when a team struggles something different will happen whether its getting another player, switching the lineup, have better coaching, etc.

Baker is going to do nothing or very little, then complain about not scoring runs like he did today. Also I'm going to continue saying this... his swing away philosophy is going to ruin several players on the team. I'm most worried about Votto. When a team doesn't go deep into counts, it means the SP stays in the game longer, and it will make it harder to score. The more pitches that are thrown, the higher probability the pitcher makes a mistake.

Most new managers,adn most managers in general, take at least a month, usually two before fully understanding the team that they have and start making adjustments. Look at Lou and Cubs last year. My point is that a month is not enough time to judge a manager. He hasn't had time to fully evaluate his team, and make the changes you suggest.

I agree that teams should take pitches a general philosophy, but I don't see any real evidence, other than Votto's walk total, that the Reds are not doing that. But Votto didn't walk much in his one month last year. Maybe he just doesn't walk much against major league pitching, or was Baker brainwashing him from ESPN studios last year.

The Reds are right in the middle of the pack in terms of walks as a team and are on a pace to walk more times than they did last year (597-536), and I don't have any hard stats about pitches seen, but they have seen as many full counts as the Cardinals this year, a team known for working the pitcher.

[mlbfan30]

Most new managers,adn most managers in general, take at least a month, usually two before fully understanding the team that they have and start making adjustments. Look at Lou and Cubs last year. My point is that a month is not enough time to judge a manager. He hasn't had time to fully evaluate his team, and make the changes you suggest.

I agree that teams should take pitches a general philosophy, but I don't see any real evidence, other than Votto's walk total, that the Reds are not doing that. But Votto didn't walk much in his one month last year. Maybe he just doesn't walk much against major league pitching, or was Baker brainwashing him from ESPN studios last year.

The Reds are right in the middle of the pack in terms of walks as a team and are on a pace to walk more times than they did last year (597-536), and I don't have any hard stats about pitches seen, but they have seen as many full counts as the Cardinals this year, a team known for working the pitcher.

The total is skewed as a team because of Dunn

[757690]

The total is skewed as a team because of Dunn

You can say that about nearly every team. Nearly every team with similar walk totals to the Reds has a guy with 20+ walks this year. Arizona is the only exception, and they have a guy with 17 walks.

[Mr.MojoRisin]

Every coach makes mistakes his first month or two with a new team, but this is just ridiculous. He's destroying the team with stupid moves.

[OldRed1966]

Most new managers,adn most managers in general, take at least a month, usually two before fully understanding the team that they have and start making adjustments. Look at Lou and Cubs last year. My point is that a month is not enough time to judge a manager. He hasn't had time to fully evaluate his team, and make the changes you suggest.

I agree that teams should take pitches a general philosophy, but I don't see any real evidence, other than Votto's walk total, that the Reds are not doing that. But Votto didn't walk much in his one month last year. Maybe he just doesn't walk much against major league pitching, or was Baker brainwashing him from ESPN studios last year.

The Reds are right in the middle of the pack in terms of walks as a team and are on a pace to walk more times than they did last year (597-536), and I don't have any hard stats about pitches seen, but they have seen as many full counts as the Cardinals this year, a team known for working the pitcher.




Dusty has had more than 3 years to realize that Corey Patterson sucks, and is not a leadoff hitter.

[I(heart)Freel]

Is it me or is everyone flying off the handle with Dusty?

Does lineup construction really swing that many games at this point? I think Dunn's inability to do anything but walk is a bigger reason for the Reds stumble. Or BPhil's April problems. Or the lack of right handed bats the GM has given him. Or Arroyo's weak start.

God forbid we consider the players responsible for any of this.

[OldRed1966]

Is it me or is everyone flying off the handle with Dusty?

Does lineup construction really swing that many games at this point? I think Dunn's inability to do anything but walk is a bigger reason for the Reds stumble. Or BPhil's April problems. Or the lack of right handed bats the GM has given him. Or Arroyo's weak start.

God forbid we consider the players responsible for any of this.



Isn't it the manager's job to put his best players in the lineup to give his team the best chance to win? Dusty is not doing that by putting Patterson out there day in, and day out.

[Carin4Narron]

People, you try to manage a bunch of Forest Gumps! It ain't easy! Let's see how Dusty manages without guys like Dunn on the team.

[He got it!]

The idea that Dusty is to blame for the Reds terrible offensive underachieving is mind boggling. I would rather see Freel in there over Patterson as well but that one switch is not going to solve anything when your 3,4,5 hitters can't hit the ball out of the infield. The biggest complaints about Dusty seem to be that he plays Patterson too much and (shocker) lineup construction. OK you put Freel in center and move the lineup around. Possibly now you have 14 wins instead of 12. When you get 3 hits it really doesn't matter where anyone is hitting in the lineup. The players are clearly playing below expectations. If there is anything to "fire Dusty" over it would be his inability to get the most out of his players. Not that he didn't start the right guys in the right batting order. You find me a manager that could have a winning record with the way these guys are swinging the bats right now. If/when we start losing games because of managerial decisions and not plain poor execution and lack of production then a "fire Dusty" thread should be started.

[Carin4Narron]

The idea that Dusty is to blame for the Reds terrible offensive underachieving is mind boggling. I would rather see Freel in there over Patterson as well but that one switch is not going to solve anything when your 3,4,5 hitters can't hit the ball out of the infield. The biggest complaints about Dusty seem to be that he plays Patterson too much and (shocker) lineup construction. OK you put Freel in center and move the lineup around. Possibly now you have 14 wins instead of 12. When you get 3 hits it really doesn't matter where anyone is hitting in the lineup. The players are clearly playing below expectations. If there is anything to "fire Dusty" over it would be his inability to get the most out of his players. Not that he didn't start the right guys in the right batting order. You find me a manager that could have a winning record with the way these guys are swinging the bats right now. If/when we start losing games because of managerial decisions and not plain poor execution and lack of production then a "fire Dusty" thread should be started. Right on my friend!

[smoke6]

I have Dusty Baker. He knows baseball but can't translate it into success. Put him back on Baseball Tonight.

R O N O E S T E R.

Ron's busy. He manages in the Great Lakes Collegiate Summer League. :D

[mroby85]

You guys are absolutely ridiculous. How about you throw some blame at the run producing monster you all love adam dunn. If he was such a run producer it wouldn't matter where dusty put him in the lineup they'd be scoring more than they are now, and if you say he's struggling right now, well maybe thats why the team isn't scoring. You're all just trying to use Dusty as the scapegoat, and it's ridiculous. I remember before the season started everyone is griping that freel can't be a starter, yet now he should be starting in center field because he's batting 321. well guess what, he was good off the bench before too, and thats how he got a starting job that didn't work out last year. The one area that i really do agree with you on is Joey Votto should be starting at first base every day, but give dusty a break, this is just ridiculous around here. do you really think those 2 hits they compiled last night wouldve given them 3 runs if they were in different spots in the order? give me a break!

[Jack Burton]

I'm on board, Fire Dusty!!!

[jmac]

The idea that Dusty is to blame for the Reds terrible offensive underachieving is mind boggling. I would rather see Freel in there over Patterson as well but that one switch is not going to solve anything when your 3,4,5 hitters can't hit the ball out of the infield. The biggest complaints about Dusty seem to be that he plays Patterson too much and (shocker) lineup construction. OK you put Freel in center and move the lineup around. Possibly now you have 14 wins instead of 12. When you get 3 hits it really doesn't matter where anyone is hitting in the lineup. The players are clearly playing below expectations. If there is anything to "fire Dusty" over it would be his inability to get the most out of his players. Not that he didn't start the right guys in the right batting order. You find me a manager that could have a winning record with the way these guys are swinging the bats right now. If/when we start losing games because of managerial decisions and not plain poor execution and lack of production then a "fire Dusty" thread should be started.
Excellent post !
Dusty has me perplexed in some things but as you stated, the batting order is not a big thing with me because basically we would still have the same guys making outs(only at different times in game).
Patterson out of lineup is a small move but if Freel or whoever was getting on base, very doubtful anyone would drive him home.

[ChatterRed]

I half expect them to sign Bonds before long to keep Dusty company in the dugout.

[Hondo]

I half expect them to sign Bonds before long to keep Dusty company in the dugout.

Another Left Handed Hitting Outfielder???

Makes perfect Sense! :thumbup:

[Lockdwn11]

Ok, lets say the Reds did fire Dusty. Who would all you "FIRE DUSTY" guys want to replace him?

[mroby85]

Ok, lets say the Reds did fire Dusty. Who would all you "FIRE DUSTY" guys want to replace him?

Dusty isn't going anywhere, he was just signed to a 3 year 12 million dollar deal, and has only had the opportunity to manage 30 games. Anyone who wants him fired at this point is an idiot and would probably like to see him replaced with someone like pete mackanin who has no history of being a winner. Don't get me wrong, Dusty Baker is not the savior of this franchise, but no manager is. The players on the field have to be held accountable at some point. There is a reason there have been 6 managers in 6 years, and it's probably not all the managers.

[Kingspoint]

Last year the Yankees were 9-14, the Rockies 11-17 and the Cubs were 22-31 and they all made the playoffs.
The 1975 Reds were 20-20 and they won 108 games and the World Series.

You guys understand it's a 162 game season?

None of those teams had a Manager who insisted that a career .296 OBP player should bat leadoff, or a snake-in-the-grass friend of the owner undermining and plotting how to steal the G.M. position away from the team. The organization became dysfunctional as soon as Dusty Baker and Walt Jockety became a part of it.

[Kingspoint]

Ok, lets say the Reds did fire Dusty. Who would all you "FIRE DUSTY" guys want to replace him?

Anybody would work.

[Kingspoint]

You hear it all the time with other managers.

Maybe Dusty Baker doesn't inspire these guys to play for him? The record certainly shows that they don't.

[I(heart)Freel]

None of those teams had a Manager who insisted that a career .296 OBP player should bat leadoff, or a snake-in-the-grass friend of the owner undermining and plotting how to steal the G.M. position away from the team. The organization became dysfunctional as soon as Dusty Baker and Walt Jockety became a part of it.

Right... because before those two came in, the Reds were the very definition of functional!

[757690]

None of those teams had a Manager who insisted that a career .296 OBP player should bat leadoff, or a snake-in-the-grass friend of the owner undermining and plotting how to steal the G.M. position away from the team. The organization became dysfunctional as soon as Dusty Baker and Walt Jockety became a part of it.

First, Pinella had Soriano and Theriot batting leadoff last year. Not as bad as Patterson, but not good by any stretch. And Hurdle last year batted Taveras leadoff last year, and before last year, he had a .325 OBP. Again, not as bad as Patterson, but not very good either. He did change his approach and became a decent leadoff hitter Dusty was hoping that would happen to Patterson, but so far, it hasn't. At least Dusty is smart enough to platoon Patterson with Freel.

What I don't get is that the Reds have had one winning season in 12 years, Dusty had been managing for two months, and it is all his fault. Brilliant!

[jmac]

What I don't get is that the Reds have had one winning season in 12 years, Dusty had been managing for two months, and it is all his fault. Brilliant!
Good point !
As I said in anothe thread, No one says "wow,Dusty has really helped Votto/Kepp" yet they place blame on him for those that arent hitting.

[goreds2]

Dusty is not going anywhere because of his contract. Let's see where we are at Memorial Day. If we are in the same situation, bring up Bruce and Homer.

[_Sir_Charles_]

If there is anybody that is NOT to blame for our w/l record...it's dusty. The blame is TOTALLY on the players. Period. Could Dusty put together a better lineup? Sure. But it's not like he hasn't tried other options. The simple fact is that this club is not hitting. Period.

When you've got a stockpile of talent in the minors, it's got to be getting VERY close to time for blowing up the team and starting fresh with the youngsters. That means dumping Dunn & Griffey first and foremost. Dumping Patterson, Freel, Weathers and a few others is also probably overdue. This club should be built around the pitchers and DEFENSE. Time for some youngsters.

[Mutaman]

You could have a combination of Lou Pinella, Joe Torre and Terry Francona managing, and this team would still stink. Dusty is not the problem.

[_Sir_Charles_]

The only way Dusty would be the problem is if he was batting .200 with only 11 RBI's and playing defense like someone who's never picked up a glove before....oh wait, that's Adam Dunn. My bad.

There isn't a manager out there who could win when you've got 2 players hitting .209 and .239 and striking out a ton. If either of them played with hustle or fire...I might cut them some slack, but as it is now...you've simply GOT to bench them both at the least. This lack of effort and complacancy is simply unacceptable.

[Mutaman]

The organization became dysfunctional as soon as Dusty Baker and Walt Jockety became a part of it.


i agree. Look at how successful we were before they got here. :rolleyes:

[durl]

i agree. Look at how successful we were before they got here. :rolleyes:

True. But switching out team leadership so often tends to make others in the organization believe that there's no plan. Companies that change leadership often tend to perform poorly. Dumping Krivsky (like him or not) I believe sent a bad message to the team. Krivsky was only given 2 offseasons to make changes. I believe the players have the idea that there is no structure for them to be a competitive team. No consistent GM, no consistent managers.

I believe Dusty can manage a winning team. Like Kerry Wood said, Dusty turned the Cubs from "loveable losers" to a team that expects to compete every year...and they do.

I don't know why this current team performed better for interim managers than they perform for Dusty, but they sure have. Every week they perform pitifully means they have to win at a much higher clip down the road. At this current pace I can see the front office dealing a lot of players and bringing up young players to finish the season. I just hate to endure another year of rebuilding, especially since this team performed pretty well for a good part of last season.

[Natty Redlocks]

Good point !
As I said in anothe thread, No one says "wow,Dusty has really helped Votto/Kepp" yet they place blame on him for those that arent hitting.

Votto and Keppinger were both good hitters before Dusty got here. Dunn was one of the most productive OF in the game. Dusty came in acting like he could make them all even better by making them more aggressive. Plenty of people said it was a stupid idea that not only wouldn't work but would certainly backfire. Right now it looks like that's exactly what's happening. All through baseball we're seeing the light bulb finally come on for teams like the Cubs and Cards, starting to recognize that maybe, just maybe patience and OBP might be important. Baker and Jocketty seem dead set on proving the opposite. Dusty seems particularly determined to use his new toy (your beloved Reds) to try to prove to the world that he was right about Corey Patterson all along. He'll show the Cubs and their ingrate fans! He'll show them all! Corey will be the greatest leadoff hitter ever!

I'm sorry, but this regime is looking like the worst thing that could have possibly happened to the Reds. It's like they're in a race and everyone else is getting souped-up race cars and these guys insist that their good ol' horse and buggy were good enough back in the day and by gum, they'll be good enough now. And Reds fans will be left with them, in the dust. Great.

[Mutaman]

I just hate to endure another year of rebuilding, especially since this team performed pretty well for a good part of last season.

I must have missed that part-- maybe it was when I was on vacation.

[757690]

Votto and Keppinger were both good hitters before Dusty got here. Dunn was one of the most productive OF in the game. Dusty came in acting like he could make them all even better by making them more aggressive. Plenty of people said it was a stupid idea that not only wouldn't work but would certainly backfire. Right now it looks like that's exactly what's happening. All through baseball we're seeing the light bulb finally come on for teams like the Cubs and Cards, starting to recognize that maybe, just maybe patience and OBP might be important. Baker and Jocketty seem dead set on proving the opposite. Dusty seems particularly determined to use his new toy (your beloved Reds) to try to prove to the world that he was right about Corey Patterson all along. He'll show the Cubs and their ingrate fans! He'll show them all! Corey will be the greatest leadoff hitter ever!

I'm sorry, but this regime is looking like the worst thing that could have possibly happened to the Reds. It's like they're in a race and everyone else is getting souped-up race cars and these guys insist that their good ol' horse and buggy were good enough back in the day and by gum, they'll be good enough now. And Reds fans will be left with them, in the dust. Great.


Just a few corrections.

1) Dunn has actually been more patient at the plate this year. He is walking more, and taking more pitches. And you can't say that batting him fifth has ruined him, as he has batted that throughout his career and been as successful batting there as anywhere else.

2) Jocketty was the one of the people in the Cardinal organization who stressed patience at the plate and OBP. Remember he first came from Oakland, Moneyball land.

3) Speaking of patience, it would be nice if some Reds fans practiced what they preached. The Reds have the 4th best minor league system in the majors according to experts. They are in the same situation Arizona and Colorado were in two years ago. The Reds are on a path to build a nice little small market contender, they just need some time for Bruce, Bailey and others to develop.

[Carin4Narron]

Originally Posted by Kingspoint
The organization became dysfunctional as soon as Dusty Baker and Walt Jockety became a part of it.


The Reds organization has been dysfuctional ever since Marge let Lou Pinnela walk away!

[demas863]

You guys are just jealous you're not a baseball jeenyus like Dusty

It's spelled "jeanious", dummy.

[Rounding Third]

2) Jocketty was the one of the people in the Cardinal organization who stressed patience at the plate and OBP. Remember he first came from Oakland, Moneyball land.

3) Speaking of patience, it would be nice if some Reds fans practiced what they preached. The Reds have the 4th best minor league system in the majors according to experts. They are in the same situation Arizona and Colorado were in two years ago. The Reds are on a path to build a nice little small market contender, they just need some time for Bruce, Bailey and others to develop.

2. And Jocketty left town when a "Moneyball" kind of guy started to have influence.

3. Arizona play their young studs instead of signing failures at $3MM a year. It seems to work for them

[mlbfan30]

The worst thing that can happen to this team is to actually start winning. If Jocketty feels like the team has any chance at the playoffs you will see him deal young players for veterans, just like he did in STL. Realistically, this team will not make the playoffs unless something dramatic happens soon. Bob's made a horrible move firing Krivsky. If this team was ready to compete then maybe it wasn't so bad. But they're not, and Krivsky appeared to have a solid plan to rebuild for 2009, with Bruce/Votto/Bailey/Cueto/Volquez all having a full season to adjust to the league and improve

[Hondo]

2. And Jocketty left town when a "Moneyball" kind of guy started to have influence.

3. Arizona play their young studs instead of signing failures at $3MM a year. It seems to work for them

#3 Made exactly ZERO sense. ZERO. ZERO. ZERO.

Not your quote. Singing Corey Patterson????

Anybody notice Dusty worried about stacking Left Handed Batters in the Lineup? Yet he is willing to go with an ALL Left Handed Hitting Outfield????

Dusty didn't start Freel the other night because he had no AB's against Hudson and Patterson had...

Patterson was 1-5 against him in his career... Wow, what a Resume of AB's... I would say when Freel was heating up and had 3 knocks... you continue to PLAY him...

[757690]

The worst thing that can happen to this team is to actually start winning. If Jocketty feels like the team has any chance at the playoffs you will see him deal young players for veterans, just like he did in STL. Realistically, this team will not make the playoffs unless something dramatic happens soon. Bob's made a horrible move firing Krivsky. If this team was ready to compete then maybe it wasn't so bad. But they're not, and Krivsky appeared to have a solid plan to rebuild for 2009, with Bruce/Votto/Bailey/Cueto/Volquez all having a full season to adjust to the league and improve

Jocketty has very little history of trading young top prospects for veterans. He trades junk for unhappy veterans who want out of their situation, has them turn their career around, then signs them to cheap ong term contracts. Haren is really the only top prospect he traded in his 14 years as GM, and that trade helped them get them a World Series title.

Kinda agree with you about the Reds being better off not winning. I think in June, if they are playing the same way, Jocketty will blow up the offense, but mostly by getting rid of veterans and having an Arizona, Colorado type youth movement, which is what is best for the team in the long run.

I think Krivsky's firing was bad timing, but I think that it needed to be done. He simply could not construct a balanced MLB roster. He focused too much on stockpiling cheap talent, with no plan for how they fit on the roster.

[757690]

#3 Made exactly ZERO sense. ZERO. ZERO. ZERO.

Not your quote. Singing Corey Patterson????

Anybody notice Dusty worried about stacking Left Handed Batters in the Lineup? Yet he is willing to go with an ALL Left Handed Hitting Outfield????

Dusty didn't start Freel the other night because he had no AB's against Hudson and Patterson had...

Patterson was 1-5 against him in his career... Wow, what a Resume of AB's... I would say when Freel was heating up and had 3 knocks... you continue to PLAY him...

The Reds have four outfielders on their roster, three of them are lefthanded. Really bad roster construction by Krivsky.
And are you really saying that Freel is that much of an improvement over Patterson? One can't get on base and one can't stay on base. Like choosing between Tweedle Dumb and Tweedle Dumber.

[Jack Burton]

Stupid moves by dusty in today's game. Yanks Keppinger and Bako. I can think of a couple other guys that could use a rest.

[Hondo]

The Reds have four outfielders on their roster, three of them are lefthanded. Really bad roster construction by Krivsky.
And are you really saying that Freel is that much of an improvement over Patterson? One can't get on base and one can't stay on base. Like choosing between Tweedle Dumb and Tweedle Dumber.

I was saying that Dusty's reasons according to a Hal McCoy article:

After getting three hits Wednesday, April 20, in St. Louis, boosting his average to .321, Freel was not in Friday's lineup, but manager Dusty Baker quickly explained that Freel had not faced Atlanta pitcher Tim Hudson and Patterson had (1-for-5). Baker said that Freel will play tonight and Sunday.

That even though Freel had been hott, batting .321 and having 3 hits the night before... Dusty chose to Start Patterson in Center because of his 1 for 5 against Hudson... Over Freel...

[Dracodave]

I think you are seeing a team that is completely bombing in hopes Baker gets the axe.

[jmac]

I think you are seeing a team that is completely bombing in hopes Baker gets the axe.

A different manager isnt going to change things that much.
The problem is this team isnt nearly as good as we thought.

[kfm]

A different manager isnt going to change things that much.
The problem is this team isnt nearly as good as we thought.

I agree. This team is poorly constructed. This is the worst offensive drought that I have seen, but we have watched this team over the past few years go through stretches where they just can't score. They have too many similar players. How many mangers/general managers will it take before some of us admit these pieces just don't fit well together. Individually last year many of them had very good seasons, but they still just don't fit well. If Griffey were still in his prime, he could make up for much of the problem but he is not. Dunn is a nice piece, but he is not a centerpiece of a team and for a small market team like the Reds you can only pay a centerpiece what the Reds have to pay Dunn to keep him. They have to change some of the parts. Instead of looking at total runs scored, we should look at the mode number of runs this team has scored the last couple of years. That will tell you the true story of this offense. I am not crazy about some of Dusty's moves but if Griffey, Dunn and Phillips were hitting it wouldn't much matter.

[Kingspoint]

First, Pinella had Soriano and Theriot batting leadoff last year. Not as bad as Patterson, but not good by any stretch. And Hurdle last year batted Taveras leadoff last year, and before last year, he had a .325 OBP. Again, not as bad as Patterson, but not very good either. He did change his approach and became a decent leadoff hitter Dusty was hoping that would happen to Patterson, but so far, it hasn't. At least Dusty is smart enough to platoon Patterson with Freel.

What I don't get is that the Reds have had one winning season in 12 years, Dusty had been managing for two months, and it is all his fault. Brilliant!

R U Kidding Me?

You're comparing Patterson's hitting ability to Soriano's?

You're completely excluding the fact that Taveres had a .375 OBP last year in just his first full season in the Major Leagues?

You're comparing Taveres' half season OBP in 2006 to Patterson's 7-full-season career, which is almost over?

You're saying that this isn't Dusty's fault? He's being paid like he's Superman-ager, when in reality, he's Clark Kent.

There's lot's of talent on the REDS, and Dusty is failing to motivate the talent. That's what he was brought in to do.

It's his idea to use Patterson, not anyone elses.

[Rounding Third]

I was saying that Dusty's reasons according to a Hal McCoy article:

After getting three hits Wednesday, April 20, in St. Louis, boosting his average to .321, Freel was not in Friday's lineup, but manager Dusty Baker quickly explained that Freel had not faced Atlanta pitcher Tim Hudson and Patterson had (1-for-5). Baker said that Freel will play tonight and Sunday.

That even though Freel had been hott, batting .321 and having 3 hits the night before... Dusty chose to Start Patterson in Center because of his 1 for 5 against Hudson... Over Freel...

1/5 = .200 batting average.

Amazingly that is exactly his batting average for this year.

[kfm]

R U Kidding Me?

You're comparing Patterson's hitting ability to Soriano's?

You're completely excluding the fact that Taveres had a .375 OBP last year in just his first full season in the Major Leagues?

You're comparing Taveres' half season OBP in 2006 to Patterson's 7-full-season career, which is almost over?

You're saying that this isn't Dusty's fault? He's being paid like he's Superman-ager, when in reality, he's Clark Kent.

There's lot's of talent on the REDS, and Dusty is failing to motivate the talent. That's what he was brought in to do.

It's his idea to use Patterson, not anyone elses.


Patterson is not a good leadoff hitter and he probably is the worst candidate on this team to hit leadoff. Having said that, Can you seriously explain away all the problems on this team by just saying Dusty is not motivating them? Is that the difference between good teams and bad teams, the level of motivation by their manager. Is that why some teams can get bunts down, catch fly balls, hit with RISP, get batters out because some guy who never plays a single inning in a game motivates them. I wish the Reds problems were so simple just to say they need to be motivated. If that were the case, they would have won a long time ago. Dusty's been here for a few months, this team hasn't won in 8 years. He is the least of the Red's problems.

[757690]

R U Kidding Me?

You're comparing Patterson's hitting ability to Soriano's?

You're completely excluding the fact that Taveres had a .375 OBP last year in just his first full season in the Major Leagues?

You're comparing Taveres' half season OBP in 2006 to Patterson's 7-full-season career, which is almost over?

You're saying that this isn't Dusty's fault? He's being paid like he's Superman-ager, when in reality, he's Clark Kent.

There's lot's of talent on the REDS, and Dusty is failing to motivate the talent. That's what he was brought in to do.

It's his idea to use Patterson, not anyone elses.

Not comparing Patterson to Soriano or Taveras, just comparing the decisions made by managers who took their team to the playoffs last year and Dusty's decisions. Stop building strawmen.
All three placed guys with previously historically low OBP in the leadoff spot. I say all three were bad decisions (although Taveras did work out well), but not decisions that result in a team losing. Lineup construction is far less important than roster construction, and both are far less important than players playing well.

[Slyder]

Not comparing Patterson to Soriano or Taveras, just comparing the decisions made by managers who took their team to the playoffs last year and Dusty's decisions. Stop building strawmen.
All three placed guys with previously historically low OBP in the leadoff spot. I say all three were bad decisions (although Taveras did work out well), but not decisions that result in a team losing. Lineup construction is far less important than roster construction, and both are far less important than players playing well.

But a month in were any of them getting on base at a lower rate than Fat Ass JaMarcus "I owe ESPN Everything" Russell's weight right now (265 to an approximate 280)? Corey Patterson has sucked at every stop he's made hitting leadoff. The longer Baker keeps the blinders on the more the fans will stop caring, its a sign that he doesnt care and will continue to be the picture beside the definition of insanity.

[757690]

But a month in were any of them getting on base at a lower rate than Fat Ass JaMarcus "I owe ESPN Everything" Russell's weight right now (265 to an approximate 280)? Corey Patterson has sucked at every stop he's made hitting leadoff. The longer Baker keeps the blinders on the more the fans will stop caring, its a sign that he doesnt care and will continue to be the picture beside the definition of insanity.

Again, my point is not that Patterson leading off is a good idea, in fact, it's a very bad idea for many reasons, but just that Patterson leading off and the lineups in general are not the reason why the Reds are losing.

I think he does care, just read the quotes from him everyday. He has tried many different lineups, he just does not have the players who are hitting right now.

[Slyder]

Again, my point is not that Patterson leading off is a good idea, in fact, it's a very bad idea for many reasons, but just that Patterson leading off and the lineups in general are not the reason why the Reds are losing.

I think he does care, just read the quotes from him everyday. He has tried many different lineups, he just does not have the players who are hitting right now.

Then why not try something unknown (apparently) to this FO and hit Dunn 2nd with all his walks?

[podgejeff_]

Dusty is outright failing at the very little he has to do in order to make this team successful.

This offense is practically the exact same it was last year. EE and Votto are hitting out of their minds, and Freel is doing better, to counteract this Griffey/Phillips haven't been hitting as well, and Dunn is getting on base more at the expense of power. And why is that? Dusty Baker's lineups are some of the most moronic things I've ever seen. Seriously, Jerry Narron is even laughing.

Here's a formula for creating a Dusty Baker lineup:
Centerfielders are speedy, so they're leadoff hitters.
Big guys are powerful, so they hit cleanup.
Hall of Famers, regardless of age, are the best hitters on the team.
Young guys/catchers must hit late in the lineup.

The stats have absolutely no influence on him at all. Griffey must bat third, regardless of if he's slumping. Dunn has to bat later, because he's big. Patterson :bang: must hit first because he's got speed. Votto needs days off because he's young, regardless of his offensive prowess. Freel shouldn't bat today because of some stupid reason like Patterson being a career .200 hitter against a certain pitcher.

This man is constructing lineups that I could beat when I was old enough to understand the stats on the back of a baseball card.

[Carin4Narron]

OK,GUYS, let's assume Dusty is fired and the Reds have a lottery of members of Redszone to manage each series the rest of the year. If either of you is succcesful. What then?

[Slyder]

For me its just the same worn out philosophy weve tried before, if by the chance I was asked to find someone my big gripe is philosophical difference with Dusty and our managers back to Trader Jack.

*Someone who understands theres more to a lineup than speed at the top for the sake of speed.
*A manager that at least understands the basics of moneyball, Bill James, Sabermetrics and other resources doesnt have to a follower just understands the principles and uses them to help his decision making process.

Weve done this whole "old school", ex-player route many times before and its failed. And so far I give Dusty a D as a manager. This lineup was not this bad last year with largely the same team (Votto/Patterson being a wash for Hatte/Freel/Hopper).

[He got it!]

Why do we blame the manager when we lose and not the players. Yet when we win it is all because of the players and not the manager. Sounds like a lose lose situation for me. If I had to guess I would say it is because we all honestly think that because we watch a lot of baseball and look up a lot of stats that we could do a better job managing the Reds than Dusty. As with a lot of you my dream job would be to manage a big league ball club, but I am also not going to pretend that I could actually do a better job than someone who has been doing this their entire adult life. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe once the Reds start winning you all will give Dusty some props, but I have a feeling there will be a lot of threads about what the players are doing right. Hmmmm...Maybe I wouldn't want to be a big league manager.

[Kingspoint]

Patterson is not a good leadoff hitter and he probably is the worst candidate on this team to hit leadoff. Having said that, Can you seriously explain away all the problems on this team by just saying Dusty is not motivating them? Is that the difference between good teams and bad teams, the level of motivation by their manager. Is that why some teams can get bunts down, catch fly balls, hit with RISP, get batters out because some guy who never plays a single inning in a game motivates them. I wish the Reds problems were so simple just to say they need to be motivated. If that were the case, they would have won a long time ago. Dusty's been here for a few months, this team hasn't won in 8 years. He is the least of the Red's problems.


Then why did they give him a god-awful amount of money if not for the fact that he's supposed to be some super-motivator?

What's the reason one would give a manager nearly 8 times more than what the three previous managers earned for this organization? The only reason I can think of is they think that manager can get the most out of the players. Well, that's clearly the opposite of what he's doing. He seems to be getting the worst.

I'm not saying it's his fault, but if these are the results, why is he even on the payroll? What do they need him for?

Junior could be a player/manager and the results couldn't be any worse.

It's certainly not because of his success at his last venue.

[Kingspoint]

All three placed guys with previously historically low OBP in the leadoff spot.

Not True.

[757690]

Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
All three placed guys with previously historically low OBP in the leadoff spot.


Not True.

Soriano before batting leadoff for Cubs: .323 OBP
Taveras before batting leadoff for Rockies: .329 OBP

What is not true? You think those are high OBP for a leadoff hitter? Higher than Patterson, but not any more justifiable.