Philly fans appreciate Jr. Why don't we? (Warning: Rant)

[Cant Touch This]

The beneficiary of MLB Extra Innings, I was able to watch yesterday's series wrap up in Philadelphia. Waching the entire sequence of Ken Griffey, Jr. approaching the plate for his final appearance in Philly for the season (and possibly ever), then drive one a few feet short of home run #600, and finally walk off the field to a spine-tingling, hair-raising standing ovation was simply awesome.

These are fans that are supposedly amongst the most brutal on players in the entire country. Each one of them stood up, arms stretched skyward when the ball left his bat. They were about to witness history. There was a collective sound of dismay when the ball was caught followed by an ovation that showed genuine class and respect for an incredible career. Junior's walk to the dugout was akin to Arnold Palmer walking up the 18th apron toward the green at his final Master's. I suspect Griffey will have a few more 18th holes ahead of him this season. Each one will give me goose bumps.

I don't contribute to this site much anymore. I used to. I got kind of annoyed with the elitist atmosphere and ensuing tiered privileges. (i.e. I have more ties to the Reds than some of the current players, but if I ever want to contribute a thought to a thread on The Honors Society board I need to take a seat at the back of the bus.)

Whatever - apparently too many members created a site impossible to moderate so adjustments were made. That's actually not the point of this message, but it does feed into it.

This season in particular, I have read on these boards more Griffey bashing than I can handle. Many RZ members jump on every possible opportunity to log in and point out his mistakes. To demand he be removed from the lineup. To propose countless trade offers. To bemoan his spot in the batting order.

Yesterday it was to, once again, tear him apart for his play in RF. As I said, I watched the game - and according to the game thread, it wasn't shown locally in Cincy so many game thread contributers were relying on radio. The ball he dropped was in the lights. Even after being informed of this, RZ members tried to find ways to blame him. How can there be lights, they say? It's a day game! Then he took a roundabout route to get to the next ball. Imagine if he had made a beeline for it, dove, and came up short and let the ball skip to the wall.

The overwhelming reaction to that play was that Griffey sucks in RF and should have taken a different route to the ball in order to make the catch.

Meanwhile, just a few innings later, devoted fans of the Philadelphia Phillies rose to their feet to applaud one of the greatest players to ever take the field. They were doing this while faceless "fans" sat behind their computer monitors and did their best impersonation of whiny little b*tches.

Here's my question - not that any of these offenders will see it buried here in the little boys room: How many of you ever played the game? I'm not talking about T-ball, little league, or benchwarming for your HS team. How many of you have ever played more than 50 games in a season? How many have ever torn your hamstring to shreds? How many of you have hit a single home run in a major league baseball game?

My percepton is this site is loaded with thousands of a different breed of fan than I knew growing up. Everyone is so concerned with VORP, BABIP, and BLOWBALLS. People here will spend hours researching multiple seasons of statistics to prove a point - especially if it means proving someone else wrong. It's the largest community pissing match I've ever seen. There is no appreciation for baseball here, and certainly none for the players who have more talent than any single one of us has ever had.

To conclude this rant - I know things won't change here. People will continue to call for Junior's head and praise the Gods of OPS when he takes off the Reds uniform for the last time. I love the Reds with the kind of deep loyalty one can't describe. It's a relationship I've harbored for more than 35 years. I want them to win more than anyone. So save your attacks on this message about comparing an appreciation for an individual career vs. wanting to see a winning team on the field. The Reds can win with Griffey batting third and playing RF. He is not their problem.

To the whiny little b*tches who think Griffey is the reason the Reds are 10 games back, I feel sorry for you, for you have a depressing perception of the great game of baseball, and zero appreciation for one of its best players ever.

[durl]

I applaud you, sir. Excellent post.:thumbup:

[OSUredsFAN]

Thank You, nice post. I was thinking the same thing. The other day I was telling my brother that Jr is getting more love in Philly than in the Nati, and they boo Santa there. Its really sad if you ask me.

[macro]

This thread seems to be more about RedsZone than anything else, so it has been moved to the Site Feedback Forum.

[BlastFurnace]

Thank you! Thank you! Thank you!

Fans are frustrating. On one end, we have one fan thinking that Jay Bruce is already better than Ted Williams and that Ted was overrated. On the other hand, we have Reds fans that rip on Griffey because he didn't come here and hit 50+ Hr's every year and beat Hank's record. He came to Cincinnati because he "wanted to come home". Unfortunately, for him and for us, he has had a lot of injuries since coming back, but he has also had to deal with a lot of fans bad mouthing him for this as well. It's all about disappoinment from the fans. We are seeing, IMO, the greatest CF that baseball has seen since Mays retired.

Griffey is nearing the end of the road for his career. I wanted more and hoped for more, but it didn't work out that way. It has been great to see his 400th, 500th, and very soon...his 600th as a Red.

When he retires from baseball, I will miss him...whether he retires as a Red or not.

[Degenerate39]

Griffey is my all time favorite player but it does get frustrating when a ball drops a few feet in front of him. I wish he could retire a Red but that's just not going to happen with the emergence of one Jay Bruce. I wish he could've played his whole career in Cincy. He's one of the best players in history of the game and probably the best of the 90s.

A thread could be made similar to Adam Dunn.

[top6]

I am so tired of hearing how terrible Reds fans are for not loving Griffey. I like Griffey, and I actually am not the biggest fan of Reds fans in general, but this constant whining on Griffey's behalf is tiresome to me.

Obviously, Griffey was one the best players ever. Fans in other cities see him once or twice a year, and understandably cheer for him because they remember how great he was. We see him every day. We can't go crazy every time he comes up simply because he did some great things ten years ago. The fact of the matter is, he just hasn't been that good on the Reds. It's probably not his fault, but it's still true. He's had some good years, some bad years, and he's missed a lot of time. I'm not saying deserves the boos he sometimes gets, but he doesn't really deserve uninterrupted praise either.

I wish fans were more excited about 600, but all in all I find this city's strange hatred for Adam Dunn a lot more disconcerting than their understandable disappointment in Griffey's career here.

(I also don't see any correlation between statistics and dislike for Griffey, but I guess that's just an easy target for you. If anything, it seems to me that a careful look at the stats indicates that Griffey's time here has been better - when he plays - than he usually gets credit for.)

[*BaseClogger*]

Lemme go spend a couple of hours doing statistical research before I decide whether or not to reply to the thread's author... :rolleyes:

[OSUredsFAN]

I am so tired of hearing how terrible Reds fans are for not loving Griffey. I like Griffey, and I actually am not the biggest fan of Reds fans in general, but this constant whining on Griffey's behalf is tiresome to me.

Obviously, Griffey was one the best players ever. Fans in other cities see him once or twice a year, and understandably cheer for him because they remember how great he was. We see him every day. We can't go crazy every time he comes up simply because he did some great things ten years ago. The fact of the matter is, he just hasn't been that good on the Reds. It's probably not his fault, but it's still true. He's had some good years, some bad years, and he's missed a lot of time. I'm not saying deserves the boos he sometimes gets, but he doesn't really deserve uninterrupted praise either.

I wish fans were more excited about 600, but all in all I find this city's strange hatred for Adam Dunn a lot more disconcerting than their understandable disappointment in Griffey's career here.

(I also don't see any correlation between statistics and dislike for Griffey, but I guess that's just an easy target for you. If anything, it seems to me that a careful look at the stats indicates that Griffey's time here has been better - when he plays - than he usually gets credit for.)


I'll have to disagree with you on this one, Griffey has/had been good with the Reds when health. Not all the time, but has been good for most of the time. Look at his numbers, they prove that too.

[top6]

I'll have to disagree with you on this one, Griffey has/had been good with the Reds when health. Not all the time, but has been good for most of the time. Look at his numbers, they prove that too.
Yeah, but he has been hurt. Again, not his fault, but you are basically saying "when he wasn't bad he was good."

He's only hit more than 40 homeruns ONCE with the Reds.

[Cant Touch This]

I am so tired of hearing how terrible Reds fans are for not loving Griffey. I like Griffey, and I actually am not the biggest fan of Reds fans in general, but this constant whining on Griffey's behalf is tiresome to me.

I appreciate your response to this message that has been buried in some discrete area of PowerTrip Zone. However, that's not what I said. To be clear, I never said Reds fans are terrible for not loving Griffey. My point is why do people make it their mission to tear him apart every chance they get?

Also, I haven't witnessed the "constant whining on his behalf," but rather the polar opposite. I guess it's all about perception - and I won't argue that.

I was accused of baiting with my original message so I'll keep any future opinions to myself.

[Degenerate39]

Yeah, but he has been hurt. Again, not his fault, but you are basically saying "when he wasn't bad he was good."

He's only hit more than 40 homeruns ONCE with the Reds.

I'm sure he would've done it several more times if it hadn't been for playing centerfield on astroturph all those years.

[OSUredsFAN]

Yeah, but he has been hurt. Again, not his fault, but you are basically saying "when he wasn't bad he was good."

He's only hit more than 40 homeruns ONCE with the Reds.


I'm not saying he was bad at all. For the most part he has produced or been hurt.

[RedlegJake]

Funny thing is, I agree with the Griffey part of your post -mixing in the language, name calling and allusions to ORG & users of "new" stats just muddied up and ruined what could have been a fine post. You've got 4 different things going on here:

1 - The criticism of Griffey
2 - Posting status between Sun Deck and ORG
3 - Analysis of perhaps over analysis using stats
4 - Enticing a fight - not a discussion - by name calling and denigrating how other fans feel as if you hold a monopoly on loving baseball and the only way to love the sport is your way. Seriously. Read your post and then tell me it doesn't sound as if you are trying to pick a fight rather than just strongly state your opinion.

I am sorry you don't participate more because you've always struck me as a quality poster who knows baseball and loves the Reds. I feel the same way you do about Junior, although I'd add a sadness in watching his skills erode as he ages, proudly, without the use of drugs or enhancements. He's done it the right way and it is a shame fans can't appreciate that and enjoy him while he's here. Every athlete does face the day, however, when his ability diminishes and a youngster takes his place.

[Cant Touch This]

I appreciate your point of view Jake, about my picking a fight. In truth, I feel like the fight was already started and I was retaliating.

That said, name calling is immature, particularly on an Internet boad. Perhaps if I were to change anything I'd retract that. But quite honestly, the past few years, it seems like when I log in to RZ, it's just loaded with kicking and screaming. I'm sorry, but after watching the appreciation for Griffey in Philly while at the same time reading here about how awful he is, well - let's just say a few years of frustration got the better of me.

As far as the 4 different things going on - a concise thought turned into a rambling rant. Since I don't write much on here anymore, I suppose I was venting all at once. In doing so, I wasn't very clear about some of the topics, such as the benefit of stats and the tiered/elite status between SD and ORG.

To be fair, I have no problem with the new generation of stats. Information is power, so use it when you get it. The point I was trying to make was that the perception of many on this board is that of a bunch of stats/analysis enthusiasts who care about numbers only and ignore the beauty of the game itself and some of its nuances. Honestly, it's great to have a mix of interest on here, but when these people attack Junior for every single thing every single time, it gives off the impression that they really don't understand baseball, only the numbers behind it.

One of the greatest things about baseball is there is so much to love. I don't think I suggested there is only one way (my way) to appreciate baseball. In fact, I think I stated the opposite of that. Sometimes people should put the pencils down and take a minute to watch him swing the bat. To watch him interact with the fans. To watch him mentor the younger generation. To appreciate him rather than tear him apart.

Believe me, there are times when I get frustrated with his slumps and wish we had a plus defender in RF, but I have never felt the urge to bash him as a player or person. People are different - I know this - I guess I just need to accept it.

[dougdirt]

Reds fan, both on this board and off the board do seem to have something to grind with him for some reason. A lot of it gets seen on these boards. A lot of it is seen at games (I go off on at least one person at every home game about it).

I disagree with the posting situations of the boards being separate. nothing I can do about it, but I do think its silly to have multiple boards for the same discussions.

[Highlifeman21]

I've been told by those old enough to have seen both situations that watching Griffey now is similar to watching Willie Mays finish his career.

Griffey's washed up as a position player and could extend his career a few years if he played as a DH for some AL team. He's been washed up as a position player since probably 2006, but he continues to go out there and attempt to perform, and for that I applaud him. He's had countless surgeries, rehabbed numerous times, and has never quit; all admirable. However, as a Red, he's standing in the way of Jay Bruce. Jay Bruce needs to be our everyday RF, not Griffey. In the short term, playing Jay Bruce in CF is a band-aid for this team.

Do I wish Griffey's tenure in Cincinnati had been different? You betcha.
Is there anything we can do about the past? Absolutely not.

[westofyou]

There is no appreciation for baseball here,

That's just not true, not at all.

[Screwball]

That's just not true, not at all.

That's what I took exception to as well. Otherwise, I found it to be an excllent post - one of the best I've read on here in a long tme. I understand people don't like name-calling but hell, sometimes ya gotta call a spade a spade.

[Cant Touch This]

That's what I took exception to as well. Otherwise, I found it to be an excllent post - one of the best I've read on here in a long tme. I understand people don't like name-calling but hell, sometimes ya gotta call a spade a spade.

Fair enough. That comment was a misplaced generalization and not an accurate representation of a good portion of what I read here. The point, I think, was that overconsumption with the metrics appears to show a lack of appreciation for the other, more classic intricacies of the sport. This may be just that - a perception - but that's how it comes off. Still, as mentioned later, there's enough about baseball to love that there is no one way to love it.

I just don't care for the incessant player bashing. Sorry.

[Kingspoint]

Philly fans and positive attributes used in the same sentence is an oxymoron.

[*BaseClogger*]

there's enough about baseball to love that there is no one way to love it.

I think you understand it now...

[Stephenk29]

Philly fans and positive attributes used in the same sentence is an oxymoron.

which makes it all the more shocking, and embarrassing on our part. I agree with Dougdirt, there is at least one fan a game I hear bashing Griffey for reasons undeserving. There are so many misconceptions about Griff. The casual fan loves to complain about him yet knows nothing about baseball. My favorite over heard quote at a game ever is "When did Griffey get moved to right?" That was last year, then they proceeded to knock him.

[RedsManRick]

Sigh. Another post suggesting that if you use stats, particularly new ones, you must not appreciate the game, and that if you criticize a player's performance, you must not appreciate his career.

Perhaps we sometimes get too focused on the argument de jour, but don't for a second think that because I can explain VORP and use phrases like random variation that I don't appreciate Junior and don't appreciate the game on the field.

Griffey is one of the top 100 players of all time, arguably top 50. He was a joy to watch in the field in the early part of his career and his swing remains a thing of beauty. He's always been a gracious person and by all accounts a great family man. However, he is not a great player anymore, his defense in RF is among the worst in baseball, and he has contributed to the Reds struggles in 2008. Believe it or not, it is possible for us to recognize all of these things at the same time.

I think what often gets lost on message boards is that people enjoy the game in many ways and that this is reflected in the way in which we talk about it. For some people, there is no differentiation between the objective and the personal. Players are what they do. Griffey was a great player, is a great player, and always will be a great player. Suggesting less would diminish the way in which they appreciate him. I can understand the perspective of the fan who just wants to enjoy the game on the field, to appreciate the accomplishments, and celebrate the athletic achievement.

But there are also fans who want to enjoy the game behind the game. For me, the joy of baseball isn't limited to what happens between the white lines. I enjoy the business problems of the sport. I enjoy the particulars of roster management, lineup order, and player valuation. I also love the game between the lines. I love watching Jose Reyes run at will. I love watching Ichiro throw darts from the outfield. I love watching Albert Pujols have his way at the plate. I love watching Adam Dunn launch a fastball in to orbit. It all counts.

What I think happens sometimes is that people take other people's comments through their own lens and don't appreciate the other person's perspective. This happens both ways of course. I talk VORP or OPS, asserting that Junior doesn't belong batting #3 and it offends your better judgement. You ignore Griffey's OPS, focusing on what he means to you and the game, and assert that he's not "the problem", offending my better judgement.

The reality is that both of us have a right to our perspective. We all have the right to enjoy the game in the way we choose. Having torn up your hamstring doesn't make you more of a fan. It doesn't give you extra weight. You're one person, I'm one person. As for ORG as a separated board, it's there for reason that you illustrate quite clearly. As we struggle as a community to enjoy the Reds both together and in our own ways, one thing that undeniably detracts from this end is name calling and ad hominem attacks. Phrases like "VORP, BABIP, and BLOWBALLS" and "best impersonation of whiny little b*tches" add nothing to the conversation. They merely stir things up and offend people. Permission to post on ORG is predicated on essentially one thing, respect. We're all going to have different views. We're all going to appreciate players, the Reds, and game in different ways. But if we can't do it in a civil manner, the whole thing comes crashing down.

I understand your frustration, CTT. But after 35 years as a fan, it's time to recognize that your way of being a fan isn't superior to anyone else's. This sort of community can't work unless we all can keep that perspective, myself included.

[AmarilloRed]

Jr. had this to say Tuesday night about the Reds:


Ken Griffey Jr. had this to say Tuesday night, in thanking the Reds when they honored him for hitting his 600th career home run last week:

"This is my ninth year here. This is the best team we've had," Griffey said. "My dad won three world championships. With a little luck, we can win one. I'd like to be part of that."

It really was a nice thing to say about the Reds. I think we should just let him stay the rest of the year in Cincinnati, and allow him to retire as a Cincinnati Red.

[AFalcon10]

Great post. Griffey is my favorite player of all time. Call me a hypocrit but my loyalty, however, is to the Cincinnati Reds and for that reason I go to sleep praying that someone will take him and Dunn off our hands in exchange for some halfway decent prospects before we lose them for nothing at season's end. I think this is wishful thinking though with Griffeys lack of production and Dunn's K's and poor fielding giving him a much worse reputation than he deserves. Though I say this with the Reds in mind primarily, I would also like Griff to contend for a title - he deserves it after this amazing career.