Reds @ Fish 6/8/08

[Joseph]

Reds [aka the greatest team in existence]

Jerry Hairston ss
Jay Bruce cf
Ken Griffey Jr. rf
Brandon Phillips 2b
Adam Dunn lf
Joey Votto 1b
Edwin Encarnacion 3b
David Ross c
Aaron Harang p


Fish [aka lamest team name ever]

H. Ramirez ss
J. Hermida rf
J. Cantu 3b
W. Helms 1b
D. Uggla 2b
L. Gonzalez lf
C. Ross cf
M. Rabelo c
R. Tucker p

Game starts at 12:10 CST, 1:10 for you EST folks.

Rookie hurler on the mound for the Fish, so I expect us to be shut out.

[Highlifeman21]

What's the lineup for the fish?

[Degenerate39]

I almost forgot about this game. It's a good thing you posted this Joseph

[jojo]

Tucker just got called up from AA. Here's an idea of what might to expect from him:


As you know, the scouting report on Tucker is that he's a fiery guy with "stuff" i.e. a mid 90's fastball, a good change and a developing slider with "plus" potential (maybe it's gotten more consistent in Carolina this year or maybe his numbers just reflect a general improvement in his command?). He also throws a curve but I think the Fish have made him concentrate on the slider. He doesn't miss as many bets as you'd think he would on paper. I haven't seen him pitch this season but I can't wait to see how he does hopped up on adrenaline today...

He pitches inside with abandon so hopefully nobody will get plinked. Hopefully Harang will school him on the slider today.

The consummate professional vs the hot headed kid..... be there or be square.

[Highlifeman21]

Keep riding the Hairston train until he cools off?

[Joseph]

Keep riding the Hairston train until he cools off?

Why not. I can't say he's done anything as a Red that makes me want to take him out. I know it won't last, thats the part that scares me.

[jojo]

Why not. I can't say he's done anything as a Red that makes me want to take him out. I know it won't last, thats the part that scares me.

His last 31 PAs have looked eerily like the ghost of Hairston past... (.286/.310/.393)

To me the really scary part is how long will it take Dusty to realize when it's over? :cool:

[Reds Fanatic]

Hairston doubles to right.

[Reds Fanatic]

Bruce strikes out swinging. 1 out.

[Reds Fanatic]

On a 3-1 count they intentionally walk Junior. 1st and 2nd.

[Reds Fanatic]

Hairston looks hurt diving back to 2nd on a pickoff attempt.

[Reds Fanatic]

Hairston is ok but Phillips grounds into his usual 6-4-3 DP. 0-0 mid 1st.

[RedsManRick]

Like clockwork.... BP rolls over one to SS for the double play. So frustrating...

[jojo]

double play machine.....

[Joseph]

Is he getting worse in terms of doing that, or am I noticing it more because its seemingly a topic of conversation lately?

[Reds Fanatic]

That is 10 DPs Phillips has hit into this year.

[jojo]

Harang looks kinda chubby today to me....

[mbgrayson]

Phillips has moved into a tie for fifth in the NL in most times GIDP with 10.

[Reds Fanatic]

Ramirez strikes out looking. 1 out.

[Tony Cloninger]

He is bad at it this series.....almost like the days when Dunn used to seem like he struck out in every at bat.

[Cyclone792]

Is he getting worse in terms of doing that, or am I noticing it more because its seemingly a topic of conversation lately?

He's been doing it ever since he's been a Red. He had 19 in 2006, 26 last year, and 10 now this year.

For comparison purposes, Sean Casey had 27 in 2005 when he was frustrating people with his GDP tendencies.

[Reds Fanatic]

Hermida grounds out to 3rd. Nice play by Edwin. 2 outs.

[Reds Fanatic]

Cantu continues to kill the Reds with a double to left center.

[Reds Fanatic]

Helms grounds out to short. 0-0 after 1.

[jojo]

He's been doing it ever since he's been a Red. He had 19 in 2006, 26 last year, and 10 now this year.

For comparison purposes, Sean Casey had 27 in 2005 when he was frustrating people with his GDP tendencies.

Ya. It's a bad part of his game.

[VR]

Keep riding the Hairston train until he cools off?

If trends are followed, he will be ridden until he cools off, and then ridden into the ground like Bako and Patterson...even when their OPS go sub .500 over a month period.

Play the guys with 1-20 streaks...their due for BIG GAMES!!!

[Will M]

Hairston is ok but Phillips grounds into his usual 6-4-3 DP. 0-0 mid 1st.

Phiilips has no business batting 4th vs a RHP. His OPS in 2006/2007 was ~.750 vs RHP and this year it is about 100 points lower. Baker is really starting to frustrate me.

[Reds Fanatic]

4 pitch walk for Dunn

[Reds Fanatic]

Votto strikes out swinging on a 96 MPH fastball.1 out.

[RedsManRick]

This kids stuff reminds me of Cueto. Throws it all over the place effectively and with a ton of tail on it considering the velocity.

[Reds Fanatic]

Encarnacion is hit by the pitch. 1st and 2nd.

[jojo]

Marlins fans really support the team by coming out to the park.....not.

[Reds Fanatic]

Ross strikes out swinging. 2 outs.

[flyer85]

BP in the 4 hole against RHP gives the pitcher a reprieve

[jojo]

This kids stuff reminds me of Cueto. Throws it all over the place effectively and with a ton of tail on it considering the velocity.

I don't think Tucker has the command of Cueto.

[Reds Fanatic]

Harang singles to left! 1-0 Reds. 1st and 2nd.

[RedsManRick]

Atta boy Harang! Create your own run support!

[RedsManRick]

I don't think Tucker has the command of Cueto.

True. Call it the 5th inning version of Cueto. Was thinking more about that fastball itself.

[Reds Fanatic]

Hairston grounds into a FC at 3rd. 1-0 Reds mid 2nd.

[Reds Fanatic]

Uggla fouls out to 1st. 1 out.

[mbgrayson]

Harang is now hitting .214 (small sample size...)
Patterson is at .192

[Reds Fanatic]

Gonzalez flies out to left. 2 outs.

[Reds Fanatic]

C. Ross grounds out to Harang. 1-0 Reds mid 2nd.

[Reds Fanatic]

Bruce grounds out to 2nd. 1 out.

[PuffyPig]

Bruce grounds out to 2nd. 1 out.


Grounded out on ball 4.

[Reds Fanatic]

4 pitch walk to Junior and the 20 fans that actually showed up for this game boo.

[jojo]

Hey Jay..welcome to the bigs where even the minor leaguers throw change ups on three ball counts

[Reds Fanatic]

Phillips flies out to center. 2 outs.

[mbgrayson]

Ryan Tucker is stuggling with his control. The Reds need to be patient, and take a few more walks. His pitch count is already 55 pitches in the 3rd.

[jojo]

Phillips does his job (manages to stay out of a double play) so Dunn can come to the plate.

[Reds Fanatic]

Dunn strikes out looking. 1-0 Reds mid 3rd.

[WVRedsFan]

Ryan Tucker is stuggling with his control. The Reds need to be patient, and take a few more walks. His pitch count is already 55 pitches in the 3rd.

Phillips amazes me. When he's going good, he gets hits in bunches. When he's not, he's always up there hacking. Two balls, a bad call on a strike and Brandon goes after ball 3 to pop out. Amazing.

[Tony Cloninger]

I guess the changeup is the hole in Bruce's offensive game?

I am confident he can figure that one out soon enough.

[jojo]

After trying hard last inning (scored a run), Dunn doesn't try very hard this one (strikes out looking). :cool:

[Reds Fanatic]

Rabello strikes out swinging and reaches 1st on a wild pitch

[RedsManRick]

Harang is now hitting .214 (small sample size...)
Patterson is at .192

If Harang was faster he could lead off!

[Reds Fanatic]

Tucker bunts foul for a strikeout. 1 out.

[mbgrayson]

Phillips does his job (manages to stay out of a double play) so Dunn can come to the plate.

You know, I wonder how many fewer DPs Phillips would hit into if he had someone faster and more aggressive than Junior on first when he hits? On the DP today Junior was just jogging down to 2nd, and there was no thought of sliding to break up the DP. Of course it wasn't even close on that one, so I can't really blame him....

[Reds Fanatic]

Ramirez lines a single to center. 1st and 2nd.

[Reds Fanatic]

Hermida lines out to Bruce and they just miss a DP on the throw to 2nd. 2 outs.

[Reds Fanatic]

Cantu singles to left. Tie game 1-1. 2nd and 3rd on the throw home.

[WVRedsFan]

Rabello strikes out swinging and reaches 1st on a passed ball/wild pitch?

Why again is Ross our best option at catcher?

K, PB, missed tag. Or something like that.

[jojo]

Bruce robbed of an assist. Dunn gets a chance on the next pitch and whatta ya know...Ross catches the throw (he just couldn't get the tag)

[PuffyPig]

Why again is Ross our best option at catcher?

K, PB, missed tag. Or something like that.

It was a WP (deservably so).And the missed tag was simply a bad throw.

If Bako could hit a bit....

But it's really a day after anight game thing...

[Reds Freak]

Why again is Ross our best option at catcher?

K, PB, missed tag. Or something like that.

To his defense, the ball hit the batter in the leg and bounced away after he swung and missed. He really didn't have much of a chance on that tag either.

But still, the circus music needs to be cued...

[Tony Cloninger]

A lot of people want Ross over Bako beacuse of offense....I vote for defense at catcher any time. If you cannot get offense fro the other 7 spots....well then you are not very good anyways.

[Reds Fanatic]

Helms flies out to right. 1-1 after 3.

[jojo]

You know, I wonder how many fewer DPs Phillips would hit into if he had someone faster and more aggressive than Junior on first when he hits? On the DP today Junior was just jogging down to 2nd, and there was no thought of sliding to break up the DP. Of course it wasn't even close on that one, so I can't really blame him....

Here's the thing. Would you start a runner with Phillips batting?

[mbgrayson]

1 to 1 after 3 innings.

Pitch Count:

Tucker is at 59 pitches, 29 of em strikes.
Harang is at 46 pitches, 32 of em strikes.

[Reds Fanatic]

Votto strikes out swinging. 1 out.

[RedsManRick]

Votto does not look comfortable up there against Tucker. This kid has some real electric stuff. If he can keep his command reigned in, he's got a good chance to stick.

[Reds Fanatic]

Encarnacion fouls out to 1st. 2 outs.

[PuffyPig]

That's 2 of the worst looking K's I've seen Votto have all year.

[Reds Fanatic]

Ross flies out to Ross. 1-1 mid 4th.

[jojo]

That's 2 of the worst looking K's I've seen Votto have all year.

Votto and the ball have been having a bit of a cooling off period this last month in general....

[Reds Fanatic]

Uggla lines a double to left center.

[Reds Fanatic]

I love George's at the warning track when Bruce is not even close to the warning track. Gonzalez flies out to center.

Sac fly by C. Ross to left. 2-1 Marlins.

[CTA513]

Harang needs to knock in another run if he doesn't want to lose.

[Reds Freak]

These guys all owe Harang dinner for the rest of the year. Each of his starts has been characterized by crappy defense and lousy run support. If it weren't for Harang's bat, it would be 2-0. ..

[Reds Fanatic]

Rabello strikes out swinging. 4 Ks. 2-1 Marlins after 4.

[VR]

perhaps I'm just getting old, but didn't Dunn have a pretty good arm when he first came up?

[mbgrayson]

Pitch count after 4:

Tucker at 73 pitches, 37 of em strikes. (5 Ks)
Harang at 56 pitches, 39 of em strikes. (4 Ks)

[Reds Fanatic]

Harang strikes out looking. 6 Ks for Tucker. 1 out.

[Tony Cloninger]

Yes he has great stuff.....but he has barely thrown strikes....you either wait him out and go deep in the count and take your chances with 2 strikes on you or be prepared to take lousy looking swings.

It really is pathetic the swings that have been taken....Ross has had more than a few.

[RedsManRick]

These guys all owe Harang dinner for the rest of the year. Each of his starts has been chracterized by crappy defense and lousy run support. If it wasn't for Harang's bat, it would be 2-0. ..

If Harang loses, he'll be 2-9. Anybody who ever cites a pitcher's W/L record needs to look at this to see how ridiculous it is.

[Tony Cloninger]

Yes....and he played RF and threw nice and straight. Too much Atari playing.

[Reds Fanatic]

Hairston walks.

[mbgrayson]

Hairston puts in a professional AB, and works a walk.

[RedsManRick]

perhaps I'm just getting old, but didn't Dunn have a pretty good arm when he first came up?

Dunn still has a pretty decent arm, but with his poor footwork, he's rarely in position to use it -- weight back, catches the ball to his left instead of out front. He was on his heels when he caught that liner. Watch Bruce line up to catch a ball and you'll see the difference.

[Reds Fanatic]

Bruce walks. 1st and 2nd.

[mbgrayson]

Bruce also walks...wouldn't go fishing...nice.

[mbgrayson]

Now they need to actually pitch to Junior. They won't want to walk the bases loaded....

[Reds Fanatic]

Junior grounds into a 4-6 FC. 1st and 3rd. 2 outs.

[mbgrayson]

Junior first pitch swinging hits a hard one right at 2nd...2 outs, 1st and 3rd...

[Tom Servo]

No runs. Of course.

[Reds Fanatic]

Phillips grounds into a 5-4 FC. 2-1 Marlins mid 5th. Reds have left 6 on today.

[RedsManRick]

Phillips rolls over another one. Easy out to 3B. 2-1 end of 5.

[Joseph]

So seriously, when will we see someone else in the 4 hole? When he's hot and facing LHs regularly, he's a good fit, but when not, he just hits us out of innings time and time again.

[Will M]

Phillips rolls over another one. Easy out to 3B. 2-1 end of 5.

deja vu

Phiilips has no business batting 4th vs a RHP. His OPS in 2006/2007 was ~.750 vs RHP and this year it is about 100 points lower. Baker is really starting to frustrate me.

[VR]

2 straight walks and then a 1st pitch swing for a shoulda been DP.

Bru-tal.


So BP follows up with the same approach.

These gifts from our 3-4 hitters will certainly garner them a large quantity of Christmas cards this year.

[Tony Cloninger]

Phillips looks like he needs to be somewhere else after the game....I mean i can kind of understand Griffey trying to go for the 1st pitch.....but not Phillips.

[mbgrayson]

Right there, my friends, is what is wrong with the Reds. Hairston and Bruce work the count for walks. Tucker is in trouble.

Then our veterans, Jr. and BP, both swing at the first pitch they see, and they both ground out. Now Tucker will be back for the 6th, and we are still down 2-1. No patience....just dumb baseball there, IMO.

[CTA513]

Do they keep stats of the amount of runners left on base for each player?

[Reds Fanatic]

Jones hits for Tucker and singles to left.

[MrCinatit]

If Harang loses, he'll be 2-9. Anybody who ever cites a pitcher's W/L record needs to look at this to see how ridiculous it is.

Only other pitcher with 9 losses is Barry Zito.
Zito wishes he had half the stuff Harang has.
Aaron has quickly become the Mario Soto of today - very good pitcher with some remarkably bad ball clubs. On the Cubs or Redsox, Harang is not only near 10 wins, but is probably hailed as one of the best pitchers today.

[Degenerate39]

http://www.grabow.biz/images/ChrisTucker.jpg

According to George this guy was pitching.

[Reds Fanatic]

Do they keep stats of the amount of runners left on base for each player?
Yes Phillips has left 5 on today.

[Joseph]

Ouch. That kids good.

The Reds however are not.

[Reds Fanatic]

Ramirez homers to left. 4-1 Marlins.

[jojo]

wowsers hanley.....

Please spellcheck the scouting reports! It should've read, DONT pitch Hanley there....

[Joseph]

Great play by EE, even though no out was recorded.

[CTA513]

Yes Phillips has left 5 on today.

I should have said over a total season.
Do you know if they keep stats for that?

[Reds Fanatic]

Great effort by Edwin but an infield hit for Hermida

[Falls City Beer]

I think the official scorer is *required* by MLB bylaws to include at least one HR in every one of Harang's starts--even starts when he doesn't surrender one.

[fearofpopvol1]

Does Brandon Phillips ground into more double plays than Casey did as a Red?

[CTA513]

Its looking like Harang will be 2-9 and Tucker will get his first career win.

[Reds Fanatic]

I should have said over a total season.
Do you know if they keep stats for that?
They probably do but I don't see the numbers listed on MLB.com

[RedsManRick]

EE has been showing some serious range lately. I'm actually more concerned about his bat than his glove...

[WVRedsFan]

Ramirez homers to left. 4-1 Marlins.

Which is one of the reasons Harang is nearing 2-9. Long ball after long ball this year. It's bad enough when your lineup can't hit anyone who isn't crappy, but giving up HRs in every start at inoppotune times helps.

[Reds Fanatic]

Cantu finally makes an out with a pop out to short. 1 out.

[Reds Fanatic]

Hermida steals 2nd. No throw as the ball slips out of Ross's hand.

[Reds Fanatic]

Helms lines a single to center. 1st and 3rd.

[WVRedsFan]

Hermida steals 2nd. No throw as the ball slips out of Ross's hand.

Hmmm.

[fearofpopvol1]

Dusty likes to just surrender games apparently. Who cares if Harang's pitch count is low? You get the bullpen warming when your starter is sucking.

[Falls City Beer]

Which is one of the reasons Harang is nearing 2-9. Long ball after long ball this year. It's bad enough when your lineup can't hit anyone who isn't crappy, but giving up HRs in every start at inoppotune times helps.

Harang is the right-handed Tom Browning. And it's certainly not just his home park either--he's been spreading his ick to mammoth stadiums around the league--Miami, San Diego, etc.

He'll never not give up the homer; and he'll never not be a #2 starter for that reason.

[Reds Fanatic]

Uggla doubles off the top of the wall in left. 6-1 Marlins.

[flyer85]

Harang has turned into an Arroyo like pitcher

[Joseph]

I know everyone wants to feel sorry for Harang and his lack of run support, but he hasn't exactly pitched well the last month, outside that relief appearance.

[RedsManRick]

2 run double. Put this one in the books. 6-1.

Harang seems to be getting a lot more flyballs than usual - not painting the bottom of the zone like he normally does.

[WVRedsFan]

Harang may have something wrong with him. He's constantly leaving pitches up and getting beaten hard. He looks like our fifth starter. Surely, he isn't this bad unless he's NOT hurt?

[Tony Cloninger]

I can take if it's Tom Browning 1988-89-90 edition.....if it is the 1992-93 one...or 1987...then we have a problem. It looks like this year he has bad luck but also the bad habit of giving up the homers...bad combo.

[Falls City Beer]

Harang has turned into an Arroyo like pitcher

I don't worry about Harang long-term necessarily because he always has at least a month-long spat like this every season.

[fearofpopvol1]

I blame Dusty here too. Obviously, he's not pitching, but if Sweet Lou was managing, he would've yanked Harang when the score was 4-1.

[Wheelhouse]

This all may go back to San Diego. For all his size, Harang is a finesse pitcher. He may be just off.

[Reds Fanatic]

Gonzalez pops out.

[Tony Cloninger]

Finesse pitchers don't lead the leauge in strikeouts....and exactly what was dusty supposed to do? Harang lost it faster than Eric Milton.

[Reds Fanatic]

Harang had a 2.98 ERA in April
In May it was 4.98 and now in 2 starts in June he is at 6.99

[Falls City Beer]

This all may go back to San Diego. For all his size, Harang is a finesse pitcher. He may be just off.

His fastball is topping out at 90 most of this season; last season he was pretty regularly topping at 93.

[RedsManRick]

Which is one of the reasons Harang is nearing 2-9. Long ball after long ball this year. It's bad enough when your lineup can't hit anyone who isn't crappy, but giving up HRs in every start at inoppotune times helps.

Do runs scored off of HR count differently than ones scored off walks and hits? I don't care how they're scored, a sub 4.00 ERA does not translate to a 2-8 record in any way. Give him Volquez's runs support and he'd be at least 5-5. Pitcher's W-L are just a ridiculously useless stat and should be ignored completely.

[WVRedsFan]

If he' not hurting, it may be the pressure. Going out every time and never getting enough runs to feel comfortable. It would war on you.

Unless he's lsot it ala Zito.

[mbgrayson]

Fish announcers commenting on Harang not being the same since his relief appearance.

[Reds Fanatic]

Good stop by Votto to finally end the inning.

[flyer85]

I don't worry about Harang long-term necessarily because he always has at least a month-long spat like this every season.
worried because he has struggled since the relief outing

[WVRedsFan]

Do runs scored off of HR count differently than ones scored off walks and hits? I don't care how they're scored, a sub 4.00 ERA does not translate to a 2-8 record in any way. Give him Volquez's runs support and he'd be at least 5-5.

it does when your team only scores 1 or 2 runs.

And lately, that ERA has been more like 7.00.

[Falls City Beer]

Fish announcers commenting on Harang not being the same since his relief appearance.

Ummm. Harang got whipped like a redheaded stepchild by the worst offense in the universe in San Diego *right before* his relief stint in the final game of that series.

This is creating a narrative where they want to see a narrative; Harang was stinking the joint up well before the relief appearance.

[Joseph]

Someone asked about Phillips with runners on, 2 out....ie the dreaded LOB stat.

Here you go:


G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB K SB CS AVG OBP SLG OPS
44 58 8 12 3 0 1 8 6 13 3 0 .207 .281 .310 .592

[Tony Cloninger]

Then let him skip a start and put Affeldt in there. Getting bombed in SD and FLA is not a good sign...I agree.....the relief stint I am sure did not help but like FCB said...he stank against San Diego's offense which makes the Reds 1982 offense look like the BRM.

[Reds Fanatic]

Dunn walks.

[jojo]

Harang is the right-handed Tom Browning. And it's certainly not just his home park either--he's been spreading his ick to mammoth stadiums around the league--Miami, San Diego, etc.

He'll never not give up the homer; and he'll never not be a #2 starter for that reason.

That's pretty much nuts.

He's essentially exactly average for an NL starter when it comes to giving up homeruns.

[Falls City Beer]

No one likes to hear stuff like this, but I kind of think Aaron's problems come from his propensity to be more Andy Benes than John Smoltz.

[Reds Fanatic]

Votto strikes out swinging for the 3rd time today. 1 out.

[mbgrayson]

Harang before the relief appearance: 3.50 ERA, 63 Ks in 74 and 2/3 IP. (7.6 K/9)
Harang in 3 starts since the relief appearance: 8.40 ERA, 8Ks in 15 IP. (4.8 K/9)

[Falls City Beer]

That's pretty much nuts.

He's essentially exactly average for an NL starter when it comes to giving up homeruns.

#2 = better than average. Hence, Harang is better than average. Not seeing your point. And certainly not seeing why that's nuts.

[Reds Fanatic]

Edwin strikes out swinging. 2 outs.

[RedsManRick]

it does when your team only scores 1 or 2 runs.

And lately, that ERA has been more like 7.00.

I don't want to get in to it in a game thread, but you cannot fault Harang for the team failing to give him run support. I'm sorry, pitchers simply cannot pitch to their offense support -- it's been proven over and over.

Harang has struggled lately, and that's on him 100%. Certainly it's hard to win when he gives up 6, like he has today. But suggesting he's been a poor pitcher for allowing 2 runs when his offense only gives him 1 is just silly.

[flyer85]

Harang before the relief appearance: 3.50 ERA, 63 Ks in 74 and 2/3 IP. (7.6 K/9)
Harang in 3 starts since the relief appearance: 8.40 ERA, 8Ks in 15 IP. (4.8 K/9)I am sure the relief appearance has nothing to do with it:rolleyes:

afterall, it was a good idea.

[Reds Fanatic]

Ross pops out. 6-1 Marlins mid 6th.

[WVRedsFan]

Ummm. Harang got whipped like a redheaded stepchild by the worst offense in the universe in San Diego *right before* his relief stint in the final game of that series.

This is creating a narrative where they want to see a narrative; Harang was stinking the joint up well before the relief appearance.

True.

Last four starts...only 20.1 innings, allowing 37 hits and 19 earned runs. More alarming is the strikouts have gone away--only 17, and he's allowed 5 HRs. ERA is 8.42.

Has to be something wrong.

[Red in Chicago]

Ummm. Harang got whipped like a redheaded stepchild by the worst offense in the universe in San Diego *right before* his relief stint in the final game of that series.

This is creating a narrative where they want to see a narrative; Harang was stinking the joint up well before the relief appearance.

before the san diego game that you reference his era was just slightly above 3. far from stinking up the place.

[fearofpopvol1]

I'd like to see those (prior) EdE defenders continue to defend his bat.

[redsrule2500]

Wow, terrible... :(

This guy looks like Cy Young against the Reds.....blah

......or just david ross being david ross.

[Reds Fanatic]

They are leaving Harang out there for the 6th.

[Reds Fanatic]

Rabello lines a single to right.

[WVRedsFan]

I don't want to get in to it in a game thread, but you cannot fault Harang for the team failing to give him run support. I'm sorry, pitchers simply cannot pitch to their offense support -- it's been proven over and over.

Harang has struggled lately, and that's on him 100%. Certainly it's hard to win when he gives up 6, like he has today. But suggesting he's been a poor pitcher for allowing 2 runs when his offense only gives him 1 is just silly.

That wasn't my point. I said the 2-9 record had a lot to do with him giving up a lot of runs and I meant over the last four starts. I should have explained myself better, I guess. That's not faulting him as much as it is his teammates.

As for the last four starts, he's stunk up the joint.

[CTA513]

Why is Harang still pitching?

[Tony Cloninger]

EE got hosed on the strike 2 call...it was a ball outside....so then he expanded his zone waaayy too much on the next pitch.

They look bored and defeated....easy to say when offense looks like this but after yesterday...it does look that way.

[Reds Fanatic]

Nelson tries a sacrifice but grounds into a 3-6 FC. 1 out.

[Reds Fanatic]

Another homer for Ramirez. 8-1 Marlins.

[Tony Cloninger]

Well...I cannot defend or understand why Harang is out there....so Dusty..do you want to explain it to me? Beacuse i try to defend you against the people who go after you ...when they reach for reasons to blame you.

[fearofpopvol1]

Why is Harang still pitching?

Because Dusty is obsessed with his starters going 6. Clearly, he was punting this game. Awesome sign.

[redsrule2500]

Aaron Harang is the new Eric Milton.

[flyer85]

Harang has at least two more bad innings left in him, no need to rush in somebody from the pen.

[KronoRed]

Looks like Harang is taking one for the pen today.

[Reds Fanatic]

Now they get Harang. As usual with Dusty he leaves pitchers to give up extra runs even when it is obvious they have nothing left.

[mbgrayson]

Why is Harang still pitching?


Imaginary Dusty quote:

Why not....Harang is a workhorse. He doesn't need no stinking rest. He was only at 84 pitches....

(Ramirez's 2nd HR of the day goes flying into the left field bleachers....)

Oops....

[Falls City Beer]

before the san diego game that you reference his era was just slightly above 3. far from stinking up the place.

He had a 6 inning 3 run game against the Phils in the 2nd smallest park in the NL last start. That came after the relief appearance.

He was trending the wrong way as early as his May 12 start against Florida when he surrendered 3 HRs in seven innings; he had a good start vs. CLE (worst offense ever), then turned around and sucked in SD the Fri before the relief appearance.

Follow his game by game tracker--his ERA has steadily risen since May 12. It could just as easily be the rise in temperature as it is the relief appearance. But the relief appearance makes for a good story wherein Dusty might take some of the blame, which is what everyone wants, so....

[RedsManRick]

Now they get Harang. As usual with Dusty he leaves pitchers to give up extra runs even when it is obvious they have nothing left.

Maybe he was keeping him out there out of respect.......

[WVRedsFan]

I'm getting out of here, but one last thing.

I'm not going to blame Dusty when your ace (supposed ace) is out there. I still feel like something is wrong and I'll place the blame squarly on the shoulders of Dick Pole. If there is a flaw in his motion, which is possible, it should have been diagnosed by now. If there's not, I have to feel like he's hurt. Since May 12th, as FCB noted, he's been giving up lots of hits, which tells me he's very hittable and not missing a lot of bats. The last 3 starts he's struck out 2, 4 and 4. That's not like him.

[fearofpopvol1]

I do think Dick Pole is a horrible pitching coach. Always have.

[Reds Fanatic]

Typical Majewski a single, hit batter and a walk loads the bases.

[redsrule2500]

I do think Dick Pole is a horrible pitching coach. Always have.

When have the Reds had a good pitching coach?

[Reds Fanatic]

9-1 on a sac fly by Uggla.

[Red in Chicago]

He had a 6 inning 3 run game against the Phils in the 2nd smallest park in the NL last start. That came after the relief appearance.

He was trending the wrong way as early as his May 12 start against Florida when he surrendered 3 HRs in seven innings; he had a good start vs. CLE (worst offense ever), then turned around and sucked in SD the Fri before the relief appearance.

Follow his game by game tracker--his ERA has steadily risen since May 12. It could just as easily be the rise in temperature as it is the relief appearance. But the relief appearance makes for a good story wherein Dusty might take some of the blame, which is what everyone wants, so....

i was looking at the game tracker, when his era was at 3.12 as of may 17th, which was right before his bad outing against the padres. even after the bad outing his era was at 3.5. you said that he was stinking up the place way before his relief outing and my point was that that was not the case. except for a bad outing against the cubs and then the padres, he was not "stinky" in his starts prior to the relief appearance.

[redsrule2500]

Maybe he was keeping him out there out of respect.......

Dusty does too much out of respect anyway, so it probably was.

[VR]

I do think Dick Pole is a horrible pitching coach. Always have.

You have to be wrong. Greg Maddux said he was great when he was his pitching coach in the 80's.

Is there a Reds pitcher that is remotely better under Pole's tutelage?

Maj up 5 times in the 1st game, twice last night.

[mbgrayson]

He had a 6 inning 3 run game against the Phils in the 2nd smallest park in the NL last start. That came after the relief appearance.

He was trending the wrong way as early as his May 12 start against Florida when he surrendered 3 HRs in seven innings; he had a good start vs. CLE (worst offense ever), then turned around and sucked in SD the Fri before the relief appearance.

Follow his game by game tracker--his ERA has steadily risen since May 12. It could just as easily be the rise in temperature as it is the relief appearance. But the relief appearance makes for a good story wherein Dusty might take some of the blame, which is what everyone wants, so....

His game log is available HERE (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/gamelog?playerId=5181).

Updated info:

Harang before the relief appearance: 3.50 ERA, 63 Ks in 74 and 2/3 IP. (7.6 K/9)
Harang in 3 starts since the relief appearance: 9.39 ERA, 8Ks in 15.1 IP. (4.69 K/9)

His ERA was actually up and down. He had a very strong start right before SD against Cleveland. MAYBE it would have kept trending up(he did indeed get bombed on May 22nd in SD) without the relief appearance. However, if he was getting worn down and becoming less effective, that is why it was even worse to use Fogg before Bray in that SD game, making it necessary to use a starter in relief.

Also, that mistake was compounded by bringing Harang back on short rest for his next start. He pitched on 2 days rest in relief, and threw 63 pitches. Then he pitched on 3 days rest, and got bombed by the Pirates. Now, it looks to me like he is worn down.

I think they should a skip a turn for Aaron, and let him regain some sharpness...hopefully.

[Falls City Beer]

i was looking at the game tracker, when his era was at 3.12 as of may 17th, which was right before his bad outing against the padres. even after the bad outing his era was at 3.5. you said that he was stinking up the place way before his relief outing and my point was that that was not the case. except for a bad outing against the cubs and then the padres, he was not "stinky" in his starts prior to the relief appearance.

He stunk in two starts prior to the relief appearance--that's reason enough to be skeptical that his two stinky starts post-relief-appearance (today's start and the start against Pittsburgh) might just be a continuation of what was happening starting with the May 12 start against FLA. I'm saying Harang has a month-long crap spell every season, and he does. This is nothing new.

[Tony Cloninger]

Volquez and Cueto looked like they have developed pretty good with Pole.

Try to give more of the blame/credit to the actual person who is throwing the ball.

Larry Shepard was a pretty good pitching coach until 1977.

[redsrule2500]

2 hits all day for Cincy. Wow.

[jojo]

#2 = better than average. Hence, Harang is better than average. Not seeing your point. And certainly not seeing why that's nuts.

My point is simply this: his Krate is significantly above average for an NL starter. His BBrate is significantly better than average for a starter (about a walk per 9 innings lower). His HR/9 is exactly average for an NL starter (so no he isn't spreading ick anywhere and he isn't a homerun machine). His fastball velocity is averaging essentially the same this year as it's been last year and basically his whole major league career (so no you're not seeing a drop in velocity).

[Falls City Beer]

My point is simply this: his Krate is significantly above average for an NL starter. His BBrate is significantly better than average for a starter (about a walk per 9 innings lower). His HR/9 is exactly average for an NL starter (so no he isn't spreading ick anywhere and he isn't a homerun machine). His fastball velocity is averaging essentially the same this year as it's been last year and basically his whole major league career (so no you're not seeing a drop in velocity).

If his HR/9 were better than average? #1 starter. That's perfectly rational. You were looking for a bone to pick, but it turns out there was no bone and I was making a perfectly rational point.

His FB velocity has been fluctuating this season--maybe I should have said that.

[redsrule2500]

yay pattersons in the game!!!!

[fearofpopvol1]

When have the Reds had a good pitching coach?

I really liked the great late Vern Ruhle. Obviously, nothing you can do about that, bue he was great.

Pole maybe was good in the 80s/early 90s, but since, not so much.

[Joseph]

Harang is likely part of that argument of Ace vs #1

Aaron is a #1, he's probably not an Ace though.

I still like him and want him on this team.

[Joseph]

CPatt back on track.

Kidding.

[RedsManRick]

And CPat breaks up the perfect game with 2 outs in the 8th with a HR!

[Reds Fanatic]

And CPat breaks up the perfect game with a HR!Guess who is leading off tomorrow night.

[jojo]

If his HR/9 were better than average? #1 starter. That's perfectly rational. You were looking for a bone to pick, but it turns out there was no bone and I was making a perfectly rational point.

His FB velocity has been fluctuating this season--maybe I should have said that.

No. My point was that you're the one looking for a bone to pick and the one you chose was really a silly one IMHO. Is Harang a #1 starter? It depends upon who is defining the term I guess. Frankly, I couldn't care less. But I do argue this-Harang doesn't have "problems" because he doesn't fit someone's arbitrary definition of a #1 arm and Johan Santana might be surprised to find out that he's not a number one because he has a similar HR/9 as Harang. In other words, "Harang's problems" are completely contrived by such a definition.

[redsrule2500]

Crap. Patterson homer. :(

[Degenerate39]

Crap. Patterson homer. :(

He'll start tomorrow. No doubt.

[toledodan]

dusty will have patterson back leading off in center before you know it with bruce going 0-3 and everything.

[Red in Chicago]

If his HR/9 were better than average? #1 starter. That's perfectly rational. You were looking for a bone to pick, but it turns out there was no bone and I was making a perfectly rational point.

His FB velocity has been fluctuating this season--maybe I should have said that.


No. My point was that you're the one looking for a bone to pick and the one you chose was really a silly one IMHO. Is Harang a #1 starter? It depends upon who is defining the term I guess. Frankly, I couldn't care less. But I do argue this-Harang doesn't have "problems" because he doesn't fit someone's arbitrary definition of a #1 arm and Johan Santana might be surprised to find out that he's not a number one because he has a similar HR/9 as Harang. In other words, "Harang's problems" are completely contrived by such a definition.

"Bone picking" issues need to go private.

[Tony Cloninger]

Unfortunately.....he was probably going to play for either one of the 3 in the OF.

Maybe Hairston will go there......but he could use a day off also....I don't want him grinding down...faster than what people already expect him to do.

[Joseph]

and this one belongs to the....wrong team.

[VR]

Volquez and Cueto looked like they have developed pretty good with Pole.

Try to give more of the blame/credit to the actual person who is throwing the ball.

Larry Shepard was a pretty good pitching coach until 1977.

I think they would both tell you Mario Soto was a big key for them.

I agree they guys with ball need to get it done....but a coach and manager need to get them in positions in which they will be most successful. Throwing Harang back out there for about 12 batters too many today is 100% on Dusty and Dick.

[Tony Cloninger]

I agree that Harang should not have been back out there...have no idea what the point of that was ..but it was not a good decision.

I like that Soto can help....and maybe if he wanted to...he could be the piching coach but it does not look like permanent coaching is his bag.

[VR]

I agree that Harang should not have been back out there...have no idea what the point of that was ..but it was not a good decision.

I like that Soto can help....and maybe if he wanted to...he could be the piching coach but it does not look like permanent coaching is his bag.

If they can keep MS semi-regularly to work with these guys it seems like it will pay very good long term dividends.

[Falls City Beer]

No. My point was that you're the one looking for a bone to pick and the one you chose was really a silly one IMHO. Is Harang a #1 starter? It depends upon who is defining the term I guess. Frankly, I couldn't care less. But I do argue this-Harang doesn't have "problems" because he doesn't fit someone's arbitrary definition of a #1 arm and Johan Santana might be surprised to find out that he's not a number one because he has a similar HR/9 as Harang. In other words, "Harang's problems" are completely contrived by such a definition.

I think it's fair to say that it's bankrupt comparing Harang to Santana (or Volquez on his own team).

The point I was trying to make is that Harang has these month-long dips that he tends to work through. It's happened every season since he's been here. To chalk it up to the relief stint is silly and is the *really* underfunded conjecture in all this.

[Spring~Fields]

When have the Reds had a good pitching coach?

When the Reds had very good pitching despite the pitching coach, then he looked like a good pitching coach, whoever he was.

When did the Reds have very good advanced scouting ?

When did the Reds have someone that was very good at calling the pitches, and the results supported it?

[WVRedsFan]

For the record, the two Reds rejects killed us this series:


ab r h bi avg
C. Ross 10 1 5 4 .300
Cantu 14 4 8 9 .571
TOTAL 24 5 13 13 .541

That's just a sin.