Cardinals @ Reds: 6/10/08

[reds44]

Reds:
Jay Bruce CF
Paul Janish SS
Ken Griffey Jr. RF
Brandon Phillips 2B
Adam Dunn LF
Joey Votto 1B
Edwin Encarnacion 3B
Paul Bako C
Homer Bailey P

Birds:
Skip Schumaker lf
Ryan Ludwick rf
Albert Pujols 1b
Rick Ankiel cf
Troy Glaus 3b
Yadier Molina c
Cesar Izturis ss
Mitchell Boggs p
Brendan Ryan 2b

[Matt700wlw]

No Edmonds.

Will George survive?

[LincolnparkRed]

No Edmonds.

Will George survive?
He'll get his fix next time we play the cubbies

[WVRedsFan]

It should be interesting with Bruce leading off, but Janish in the 2-hole? That strikes me as really strange. It's like "if you play shortstop, you bat second" regardless of ability. But what do I know?

[Matt700wlw]

It should be interesting with Bruce leading off, but Janish in the 2-hole? That strikes me as really strange. It's like "if you play shortstop, you bat second" regardless of ability. But what do I know?

Did Hank Aaron teach YOU the game? :)

[Kc61]

It should be interesting with Bruce leading off, but Janish in the 2-hole? That strikes me as really strange. It's like "if you play shortstop, you bat second" regardless of ability. But what do I know?

Reds have only three righty hitters in the lineup. And only two righty bats that have had any success. Phillips and EE.

Dusty doesn't want to use them both in the top part of the lineup and then have lots of lefties lined up in a row. This lineup is an attempt to avoid that problem.

He could have done --

Bruce
EE
Griffey
Phillips
Dunn
Votto
Janish
Bako

I guess he preferred to keep EE in his "normal" spot lower in the lineup and hit Janish second.

Reds need more righty hitting. With Kepp and Hairston both out, Reds need a lot more righty hitting.

[WVRedsFan]

Did Hank Aaron teach YOU the game? :)

Hank who??

:)

[RedsManRick]

We're facing a RHP who has never pitched in the majors, nor experienced much minor league success until this year. His success this year has been based largely on unsustainably low hit and HR rate. Also, the Cardinals have one LOOGY in their pen, Ron Villone.

So basically, we're giving Paul Janish more at bats than Adam Dunn or JOey Votto, because we're afraid that in a late game situation, Ron Villone will be brought in and we'd rather have the light hitting SS with a .741 minor league OPS and 25 major league at bats at the plate over either of our .900+ OPS corner bats. Riiiiiiiiiiight. Good thinking Dusty.

[Marc D]

It should be interesting with Bruce leading off, but Janish in the 2-hole? That strikes me as really strange. It's like "if you play shortstop, you bat second" regardless of ability. But what do I know?


I thought about hitting him second from the point of view that he should be on auto sac bunt mode for a week or so untill Kepp gets back.

The early 90's Pirates used to have a 2B(name escapes me, King maybe?) that made a living off of sac bunting Womack over for Bonilla and Bonds. I'm thinking something along those lines for Janish.

I hate to give up outs but it looks like he's pretty much an out anyway, might as well get what you can out of it.

[cumberlandreds]

Never heard of this guy pitching for the Cards tonight. So I guess that means he will pitch a three hit shutout.

[WVRedsFan]

We're facing a RHP who has never pitched in the majors, nor experienced much minor league success until this year. His success this year has been based largely on unsustainably low hit and HR rate. Also, the Cardinals have one LOOGY in their pen, Ron Villone.

So basically, we're giving Paul Janish more at bats than Adam Dunn or JOey Votto, because we're afraid that in a late game situation, Ron Villone will be brought in and we'd rather have the light hitting SS with a .741 minor league OPS and 25 major league at bats at the plate over either of our .900+ OPS corner bats. Riiiiiiiiiiight. Good thinking Dusty.

The pitcher will look like Don Drysdale. Janish will hit like Juan Castro. And the Cardinals will prasie their young pitcher as an "up and coming pitcher." Until he pitches against anyone else...:)

[RedsManRick]

The early 90's Pirates used to have a 2B(name escapes me, King maybe?) that made a living off of sac bunting Womack over for Bonilla and Bonds. I'm thinking something along those lines for Janish.

Womack came after Bonilla and Bonds. The years those two were there it was mostly Jay Bell and Andy Van Slyke ahead of them...

Maybe you're thinking of Jose Lind? Lind usually batted 8th though.

[wheels]

Jay Bell was the big sac bunt guy.

[Marc D]

Womack came after Bonilla and Bonds. The years those two were there it was mostly Jay Bell and Andy Van Slyke ahead of them...

Maybe you're thinking of Jose Lind? Lind usually batted 8th though.


Jay Bell was the big sac bunt guy.


My bad I thought it was Womack but I remember the #2 hitter was a sac bunt machine.

[Heath]

Never heard of this guy pitching for the Cards tonight. So I guess that means he will pitch a three hit shutout.

Who is Alex Madrid?

[westofyou]

Jay Bell was the big sac bunt guy.


CAREER
1985-1994

SACRIFICES SAC
1 Jay Bell 123
2 Brett Butler 104
3 Ozzie Guillen 103
4 Marty Barrett 98
5 Ozzie Smith 97
6 Dick Schofield 93
7 Scott Fletcher 91
T8 Robby Thompson 87
T8 Felix Fermin 87
10 Orel Hershiser 81

[jesusfan]

Pujols is 3 shy of 300... Hopefully he will not get it in Cincy...

[lollipopcurve]

looking forward to this one -- I didn't see Bailey's first start

hope the defense holds up behind him

[jesusfan]

We need to take 3 from the Cards and get back in the wild card hunt!

[jesusfan]

1 pitch, 1 hit... nice start....

[jesusfan]

Bailey K's Ludwick... Nice pitch... 1 down

[lollipopcurve]

nice change for the K of Ludwick

[jesusfan]

Pujols pops to Phillips... 2 down...

[Degenerate39]

It's always nice to get a guy like Pujols out but it's even better when it's on 1 pitch.

[lollipopcurve]

keeping that fastball down

I hope he can go upstairs with the fastball from time to time -- he's got enough to get it by guys

[Razor Shines]

For anyone watching on gameday: How fast is Bailey's fastball tonight? FSN doesn't have their gun on right now.

[NC Reds]

Good job Homer.

[lollipopcurve]

great first for Homer

[jesusfan]

Ankiel pops to Edwin... Here comes the Bruce!

[jesusfan]

For anyone watching on gameday: How fast is Bailey's fastball tonight? FSN doesn't have their gun on right now.

91-93

[reds44]

Nice start for Homer

[Patrick Bateman]

That change-up to Ludwick was excellent. Well located, with lots of late breaking action. He got Ludwick out, as opposed to Ludwick getting himself out. Nice to see.

[Razor Shines]

91-93

Thanks. That's not too bad. I like the change up so far.

[jesusfan]

Thanks. That's not too bad. I like the change up so far.

Yeah... He has toned down the fastball a bit for better control... I like it myself...

Bruce grounds to 2nd... 1 down

[Tommyjohn25]

You know what? Even if Bailey doesn't end up striking out tons of guys the way we all thought he would, I would certainly be satisfied if he became a true ground ball specialist. It's not as flashy, but a TRUE ground ball pitcher is very effective.

[jesusfan]

This guy will walk us if we are patient...

[jesusfan]

Janish walks... Here comes the KID!

[Degenerate39]

This guy will walk us if we are patient...

Janish supports this message as he walks on 4 straight pitches.

[Tommyjohn25]

2-0. Griffey is going deep.

[jesusfan]

3-0... Boy, I need to quit teaching and be a scout... lol

[jesusfan]

8 straight balls... 1st and 2nd with BP up... DO NOT SWING AT THE FIRST PITCH!!

[NC Reds]

No double plays Brandon.

[lollipopcurve]

Junior's been nice and patient lately. Key for him.

[Degenerate39]

3-0... Boy, I need to quit teaching and be a scout... lol

So far you've been right. Hopefully the Reds can wear this bullpen out early.

[joshnky]

A first pitch double play would not be surprising

[jesusfan]

WHY???

[jesusfan]

BP has all the skills in the universe... I just don't think he's a very smart player...

[jesusfan]

Dunn flies to right... 2 stranded after 1....

[Tommyjohn25]

Dang. Thought Dunn ran into one there.

[NC Reds]

Dunn just missed that one.

[Degenerate39]

10 pitches for Homer after 1.
21 pitches for Boggs after 1.

[letsgojunior]

What's up with all these young pitchers refusing to throw strikes to Griffey? Are they that afraid they might be down 2-0 in the first inning?

[reds44]

Griffey's OBP is approaching .400.

Yeah, he's washed up.

[jesusfan]

Glaus with an infield single...

[reds44]

Janish has some range.

[lollipopcurve]

Janish should make that play.

[jesusfan]

Nice DP... 2 down!

[reds44]

Janish should make that play.
Umm, no.

[lollipopcurve]

Quick work again by Homer.

Be nice to get him 2-3 runs early.

[jesusfan]

Homer with 20 pitches thru 2... great pace!

[lollipopcurve]

Umm, no.

Disagree. He was there and chose to slide on the backhand -- he could have stayed up, played the ball away from his body and still had tons of time to throw out Glaus. Tried to do too much, in my opinion.

[jesusfan]

Votto flies to center... 1 down

[lollipopcurve]

great hustle by EdE

[jesusfan]

Nice play by Glaus... Edwin with the infield single though...

[lollipopcurve]

more good baserunning by Edwin

[Degenerate39]

Good move by Edwin going to 2nd.

[Puffy]

Griffey's OBP is approaching .400.

Yeah, he's washed up.

shhhhhhhh, keep posting things like facts and stuff and people are bound to put you on ignore.

[jesusfan]

Double by Ryan...

[jesusfan]

soft liner to Edwin... ball pops out of his hand on the exchange.. 2 down

[jesusfan]

Double by Ludwick... 1-0 Cards...

[Tommyjohn25]

Stupid 2 out RBI's. Killlers, I tell ya.

[jesusfan]

3-0 Cardinals... wonderful

[Tommyjohn25]

Yikes. That ball was killed.

[Highlifeman21]

shhhhhhhh, keep posting things like facts and stuff and people are bound to put you on ignore.

Griffey's also OPSing just North of .600 vs LHP, while OBPing .300 and SLGing .300.

However, the old man can still rake vs RHP. Wouldn't surprise me if he OPS's North of .900 for the year vs RHP.

[Degenerate39]

I think you have to walk Pujols in that situation

[jesusfan]

How in the world do the Cardinals keep winning... I mean, look at this line-up, then look at their pitching staff... LaRussa must be a master over there...

[reds44]

This was just a matter of time coming. Homer has nothing other than pedestrian stuff.

[jesusfan]

I think you have to walk Pujols in that situation

I KNOW you have to walk Pujols there... lol

[Joseph]

I was thinking about bragging about Homers first couple innings.

[jesusfan]

Now Homer is going to lose it completely I guess...

[NC Reds]

Homer is tossing BP this inning.

[jesusfan]

Marty is right!

[Highlifeman21]

I think you have to walk Pujols in that situation

I think you have to walk Pujols in most situations.

[lollipopcurve]

blast after blast after blast

all on fastballs

[Tommyjohn25]

Okay...this is getting out of hand. What is the problem with Bailey? I don't get it. How do you just lose 5-7 mph off your fastball at age 22?

[PuffyPig]

Griffey's also OPSing just North of .600 vs LHP, while OBPing .300 and SLGing .300.

However, the old man can still rake vs RHP. Wouldn't surprise me if he OPS's North of .900 for the year vs RHP.


His OPS vs. righthanders is .836.

His OBA for the year is .365.

[reds44]

He is throwing 88-91.

He isn't going to get people out at that speed.

[Highlifeman21]

That homer brought to you by HGH.

[Red in Chicago]

pete in the house ;)

[lollipopcurve]

Homer at 88-91 with the heat -- semi-weak, I'd say

[jesusfan]

Homer is definitely not Volquez or Cueto... I just don't understand all the hype... I really think it has alot to do with their mental make-up as to why Homer is struggling, not to mention throwing at 89 mph..

[reds44]

Homer is definitely not Volquez or Cueto... I just don't understand all the hype... I really think it has alot to do with their mental make-up...
He doesn't have either of their stuff. Not even close.

I don't know what happend to be him, but he's just not very good anymore. He's turned into Elizardo Ramirez.

[PuffyPig]

That missed DP by EE's drop looking pretty big now.

[Tommyjohn25]

Homer is definitely not Volquez or Cueto... I just don't understand all the hype... I really think it has alot to do with their mental make-up...

I think mental make-up is definitely part of it. However, you can't "think" yourself out of 5-7 mph...I wouldn't think.

[MWM]

Homer has absolutely no command at all. He lets go of the pitch and has no idea where it's going to go. Add to that very average stuff and you have an ineffective pitcher.

Admittedly, I've only seen Homer pitch on TV, but I've never seen this electric stuff he's supposed to have. Not once.

[reds44]

Homer has absolutely no command at all. He lets go of the pitch and has no idea where it's going to go. Add to that very average stuff and you have an ineffective pitcher.

Admittedly, I've only seen Homer pitch on TV, but I've never seen this electric stuff he's supposed to have. Not once.
100% correct on every point.

He's just not very good.

[Highlifeman21]

Homer is definitely not Volquez or Cueto... I just don't understand all the hype... I really think it has alot to do with their mental make-up...

Not directed at you jesusfan...

Anyone else wanna say that Homer isn't taking his natural abilities for granted? Anyone else wanna say that Homer still projects to be a TOR type SP?

IMO, the kid doesn't care if he pitches in the bigs or not. He really carries himself with a ridiculous sense of entitlement, and obviously thinks he's better than he really is.

And let's not forget that he's still in love with his fastball. The only problem is that he's lost an insane amount of velocity from last year to this year.

[jesusfan]

I'm ready to see Thompson.. .If someone told you last season that Johnny Cueto, Edinson Volquez and Daryl Thompson would be better than Homer Bailey would you have believed it....?

[Razor Shines]

Griffey's also OPSing just North of .600 vs LHP, while OBPing .300 and SLGing .300.

However, the old man can still rake vs RHP. Wouldn't surprise me if he OPS's North of .900 for the year vs RHP.

His OPS vs. LHP is currently .670, 6 days ago it was .581. I said last week that I believe he'll rebound and put up somewhere near the .735 OPS that he did last year vs. lefties and I think he's on his way there.

[reds44]

I'm ready to see Thompson.. .If someone told you last season that Johnny Cueto, Edinson Volquez and Daryl Thompson would be better than Homer Bailey would you have believed it....?
I might put Maloney better than Bailey.

At least he throws his below average stuff with his left hand.

[Joseph]

just amazing that its Pujols and essentially nothing and they kill us all the time.

[jesusfan]

Keppinger 2-4 tonight... Frazier 3-4...

[Highlifeman21]

I'm ready to see Thompson.. .If someone told you last season that Johnny Cueto, Edinson Volquez and Daryl Thompson would be better than Homer Bailey would you have believed it....?

Thompson no, but Volquez and Cueto yes.

Homer's still young, so I hope that by the time he turns 25 he can remove his head from his butt and be a major positive contributor to this club.

[jesusfan]

just amazing that its Pujols and essentially nothing and they kill us all the time.

I'm telling ya... LaRussa is a very, very smart man... I don't like the guy, but he can manage.

[Tommyjohn25]

Keppinger 2-4 tonight... Frazier 3-4...

To quote someone else on the board (can't remember who), "death, taxes, Keppinger".

[reds44]

Thompson no, but Volquez and Cueto yes.

Homer's still young, so I hope that by the time he turns 25 he can remove his head from his butt and be a major positive contributor to this club.
It has nothing to do with him having a bad attitude, bad work ethic, whatever right now.

He just has no stuff. He has a high 80's, low 90's fastball, an above average change up, and a curve ball he can't locate.

I have no idea what happend to his fastball.

[Highlifeman21]

His OPS vs. LHP is currently .670, 6 days ago it was .581. I said last week that I believe he'll rebound and put up somewhere near the .735 OPS that he did last year vs. lefties and I think he's on his way there.

I hope you're right, but I'm not going to hold my breath.

I just wish we could platoon KGJ with a RHB OF, b/c KGJ can still rake against RHP in my book.

Part of me wonders if KGJ is out to audition for his next team, b/c he's dropped hints that this is his last season as a Red.

[jesusfan]

Bruce grounds to short... 1 down

[Tommyjohn25]

I have no idea what happend to his fastball.

That's the big question. If he's not injured, then what? I don't get it.

[jesusfan]

If this cat shuts the reds out I may not watch another reds game this season...

[jesusfan]

1-2-3 inning for the Cards... 4-0 after 3

[Highlifeman21]

It has nothing to do with him having a bad attitude, bad work ethic, whatever right now.

He just has no stuff. He has a high 80's, low 90's fastball, an above average change up, and a curve ball he can't locate.

I have no idea what happend to his fastball.

I would think bad attitude and bad work ethic might lead to no stuff. Yes? No?

[reds44]

I would think bad attitude and bad work ethic might lead to no stuff. Yes? No?
He must be literally doing no work between starts to lose 7 MPH on his fastball on the age of 22, if that is indeed the case.

If he has any trade value at all left, I'd try to deal him. It's not like he has electric stuff and can't locate it, i.e. Volquez, he just has no stuff.

[Highlifeman21]

That's the big question. If he's not injured, then what? I don't get it.

How's his groin?

I'm asking in all seriousness.

If that groin really was injured, and he's still partially favoring it, it might explain his lack of fastball.

If his groin is fine, then I have no idea what's wrong with young David.

[RedsManRick]

just amazing that its Pujols and essentially nothing and they kill us all the time.

Troy Glaus is hardly nothing. Ryan Ludwick has a 1.020 OPS. As a team they're #2 in the NL in OBP. They play decent defense. It's amazing what happens when you don't give away outs -- offensively and defensively.

[RedsManRick]

When you can't locate an 88 mph straight fastball to the #9 batter, you've got problems.

[Tony Cloninger]

So is this Tommy Boggs shutting them out.......hopefully they figure him out ..soon.

[reds44]

He just walked Ryan on an 88 MPH fastball.

An 88 MPH fastball.

[Red in Chicago]

How's his groin?

I'm asking in all seriousness.

If that groin really was injured, and he's still partially favoring it, it might explain his lack of fastball.

If his groin is fine, then I have no idea what's wrong with young David.

doesn't it look like his follow threw is different? he doesn't appear to be landing the same to me, but it's been a while since i saw him pitch.

[jesusfan]

He just walked Ryan on an 88 MPH fastball.

An 88 MPH fastball.

Is this Joey Hamilton in a Bailey uniform??

[MWM]

It's certainly way too early to give up on Homer, but I've been a skeptic all along. Command is something that's tough to learn and Homer has never really had it.

[PuffyPig]

He If he has any trade value at all left, I'd try to deal him.

Not much to gain from trading any player when his value is at his lowest.

[Joseph]

I'm not making excuses for Homer, but they did ask him to change some things in his mechanics/delivery IIRC.

[jesusfan]

This is rediculous... 2 out RBI??? what is that?

[jesusfan]

Hey they figured it out this time!!!!

[RedsManRick]

It's certainly way too early to give up on Homer, but I've been a skeptic all along. Command is something that's tough to learn and Homer has never really had it.

Neither command nor stuff. This is ugly.

[reds44]

Time to give Homer his bus ticket to AAA.

[jesusfan]

BOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!

[MWM]

Neither command nor stuff. This is ugly.

But supposedly his stuff at one point in time was great. And I don't doubt that. I've just never seen it. Now command, he's NEVER had it. And you can't succeed at the ML level without it.

[Ltlabner]

I'm not making excuses for Homer, but they did ask him to change some things in his mechanics/delivery IIRC.

And it doesn't help his cause that the Reds wouldn't know pitching development if they fell over it.

But something is definaltey way out of wack with the young lad tonight.

[reds44]

And it doesn't help his cause that the Reds wouldn't know pitching development if they fell over it.

But something is definaltey way out of wack with the young lad tonight.
They've done okay with Johnny Cueto...

[Tommyjohn25]

Time to give Homer his bus ticket to AAA.

I hate to say it, but I agree. This whole Homer thing is definitely confusing.

[Kc61]

Just don't understand this whole Bailey thing. He was getting hit hard at AAA. His K rate had declined down there, he had pitched several bad outings recently. Why did anyone think he would emerge against major leaguers?

I don't know what Walt was thinking, but this was kind of inevitable. Just don't get it.

[Joseph]

They've done okay with Johnny Cueto...

Maybe Johnny and Volquez have done ok despite the Reds :)

[Tony Cloninger]

Too bad......i thought he looked good in Philly...but those who said he did not....obviously were more than dead on than i allowed.

[jesusfan]

5-0 mid 4... c'mon, lets get a couple.. chip, chip!

[Kc61]

Mike Lincoln, showing real major league stuff, strikes out Ankiel.

[reds44]

Too bad......i thought he looked good in Philly...but those who said he did not....obviously were more than dead on than i allowed.
He didn't strike out anybody and he's always had success as a strikeout pitcher. 4 BB and 1 K in that game, nobody is going to pitch well while doing that.

It was just nieve of anybody to see the stuff he is throwing up there, and even the result he got in Philly and think it was going to continue. He didn't turn into a pitch to contact guy over night.

His first start was nothing other than blind luck. If he stays up here, you can expect more and more starts like this.

[Ltlabner]

They've done okay with Johnny Cueto...

Which kind of makes my point.

....that's one pitcher who's spent appreciable time in the Reds farm system and who's being productive.

That's versus the litney of young tallented arms that haven't come up through the ranks and been a big producer.

[jesusfan]

1 down

[flyer85]

same Homer, could not throw off speed pitches for strikes and left some fastballs out over the plate

[reds44]

Which kind of makes my point.

....that's one pitcher who's spent appreciable time in the Reds farm system and who's being productive.

That's versus the litney of young tallented arms that haven't come up through the ranks and been a big producer.
Who are these young talented arms that you speak of? The Reds haven't had a long line of golden arms coming through the system that Homer was supposed to be.

[jesusfan]

Dunn walks....

[NC Reds]

I can't remember if it was the Futures Game or the AA all-star game but two years ago Homer had serious heat when I watched him pitch on TV. He does not have that heat right now.

[jesusfan]

Votto Homers!!!! 5-2 game!

[Red in Chicago]

votto goes yard...:beerme:

[Joseph]

There's a couple back. Lets hope we can tack on a few more before they take the kid out.

[Tommyjohn25]

Votto! Atta boy! That was to dead center!

[RedsManRick]

WTG Votto. I hope you were watching Dusty -- walks score runs.

[jesusfan]

Chip, Chip!

[jesusfan]

Edwin doubles down the line... Here we go! C'mon Bako, do something!

[reds44]

I can't remember if it was the Futures Game or the AA all-star game but two years ago Homer had serious heat when I watched him pitch on TV. He does not have that heat right now.
Yep. IIRC, he even had a blister in that game and was still cranking it up in the mid to upper 90s.

I just don't know where it has gone.

[jesusfan]

Where is one of those homers Bako???

[jesusfan]

Bako dribbles back to the pitcher... Lincoln will bat... IONO

[jesusfan]

5-2 after 4...

[mth123]

Yep. IIRC, he even had a blister in that game and was still cranking it up in the mid to upper 90s.

I just don't know where it has gone.

One theory is that his command is so poor, that he has taken a bunch off of his fastball in an attempt to throw strikes. I remember reading somewhere that he could still get it up there, but had no idea where it was going when he did. Not sure if its true, but it fits the facts.

[reds44]

One theory is that his command is so poor, that he has taken a bunch off of his fastball in an attempt to throw strikes. I remember reading somewhere that he could still get it up there, but had no idea where it was going when he did. Not sure if its true, but it fits the facts.
I'd rather have him just blow smoke and pray it's a strike then doing this. He's walked 7 guys in his first two starts up here, so his control still sucks.

[Tommyjohn25]

I'd rather have him just blow smoke and pray it's a strike then doing this. He's walked 7 guys in his first two starts up here, so his control still sucks.

This.

[Ltlabner]

Who are these young talented arms that you speak of? The Reds haven't had a long line of golden arms coming through the system that Homer was supposed to be.

Which again gets to my point.

Plenty of other teams find a way to mine what they can from both golden arms and so-so arms. Would Coffey or Elizardo Rameriz do better under the toutlage of Dave Duncan? Would Ryan Wagner have blossemed in the Atlanta farm system?

Maybe, maybe not.

But if you want to argue that the Reds have done a pretty decent job finding and developing pitching tallent based on the very early returns of one pitcher be my guest.

[Highlifeman21]

I'd rather have him just blow smoke and pray it's a strike then doing this. He's walked 7 guys in his first two starts up here, so his control still sucks.

Being effectively wild works for Volquez.

Might work for Bailey.

[CrackerJack]

One theory is that his command is so poor, that he has taken a bunch off of his fastball in an attempt to throw strikes. I remember reading somewhere that he could still get it up there, but had no idea where it was going when he did. Not sure if its true, but it fits the facts.

Seems to be a likely culprit. Still transitioning as a pitcher who has to pitch at this level, not ready yet. Too raw coming out of HS.

[jesusfan]

Hey Votto made the flip to first!!! 2 down

[jesusfan]

1-2-3 inning for Lincoln... mid 5 5-2

[reds44]

Which again gets to my point.

Plenty of other teams find a way to mine what they can from both golden arms and so-so arms. Would Coffey or Elizardo Rameriz do better under the toutlage of Dave Duncan? Would Ryan Wagner have blossemed in the Atlanta farm system?

Maybe, maybe not.

But if you want to argue that the Reds have done a pretty decent job finding and developing pitching tallent based on the very early returns of one pitcher be my guest.
The Reds problem has been finding the arms, I'm not really sure they've ever had arms to develop. Have there been many Reds arms where you say, "wow, he has a golden arm, hopefully he can put it all together", and it never happens? If the first names that come to your head are Todd Coffey and Ryan Wagner then that tells you all you need to know.

I'm not really arguing against you here. I don't think a change in his delivery (which I don't even see), is why he has lost 7 MPH on his heater.

[reds44]

Being effectively wild works for Volquez.

Might work for Bailey.
Age 22 is way too early to start taking velocity off of your fastball to try to get it over. If that really is the case, then he (or the Reds) are stupid.

[NC Reds]

Bruce is back.

[jesusfan]

single for Bruce... C'mon

[jesusfan]

Janish with the sac... Sure would be nice to have a hitter in the 2 hole... Here comes Griffey to make it 5-4...

[Kc61]

The Reds problem has been finding the arms, I'm not really sure they've ever had arms to develop. Have there been many Reds arms where you say, "wow, he has a golden arm, hopefully he can put it all together", and it never happens? If the first names that come to your head are Todd Coffey and Ryan Wagner then that tells you all you need to know.

I'm not really arguing against you here. I don't think a change in his delivery (which I don't even see), is why he has lost 7 MPH on his heater.

I agree. I can't blame the Reds because Bailey isn't a fully formed pitcher at age 22. His command issues, his pitch selection, all that will come with experience.

The problem I see is that his velocity seems way off. I'm willing to let Bailey mature if the stuff is there, but where's the stuff? Injury? Mechanics? That's the concern.

[jesusfan]

Griffey pops to center... 2 down

[Ltlabner]

The Reds problem has been finding the arms, I'm not really sure they've ever had arms to develop. Have there been many Reds arms where you say, "wow, he has a golden arm, hopefully he can put it all together", and it never happens? If the first names that come to your head are Todd Coffey and Ryan Wagner then that tells you all you need to know.

I'm not really arguing against you here. I don't think a change in his delivery (which I don't even see), is why he has lost 7 MPH on his heater.

Homer (and most human pitchers) are going to struggle transitioning to the big leagues. If we had a real soild pitching development staff maybe that transition goes a little more smoothly.

It's just one aspect of the overall "Homer" situation.

That was my only point.

[Highlifeman21]

Age 22 is way too early to start taking velocity off of your fastball to try to get it over. If that really is the case, then he (or the Reds) are stupid.

I agree completely.

Bailey had previously been a high velocity guy who was wild. Now he's a low velocity guy who's still wild.

I'd much rather him go back to being high velocity and wild than pedestrian (as you accurately described him) and wild.

I'm hoping by the time he gets to age 23 he's back to high velocity.

[jesusfan]

after 5... 5-2 Cards...

[NC Reds]

Brandon should not bat cleanup against righties. Poor lineup construction strikes again.

[jesusfan]

Boggs out of there... very smart...

[jesusfan]

2 quick outs...

[jesusfan]

Lincoln has thrown 17 strikes and 3 balls...

[jesusfan]

1-2-3 inning for Lincoln again... 7 up, 7 down... mid 5 5-2 Cards...

[Stormy]

Janish with the sac... Sure would be nice to have a hitter in the 2 hole... Here comes Griffey to make it 5-4...

Giving away outs with the top of your order, while trailing by 3 runs in the 5th inning... have to love the self-defeatism that is Dustyball. Meanwhile, the major run scoring in this game has resulted from big blast(s) following *walks*. But, by all means, throw some more Outs away while trailing.

[reds44]

We get 4 innings of LaRussa manging his bullpen.

This one is going to go 4 hours.

[NC Reds]

Good AB by Dunn.

[jesusfan]

Dunn walks... C'mon Votto!

[jesusfan]

3-1 to Votto...

[jesusfan]

Votto flies to left... 1 down

[jesusfan]

Edwin with another hit... 2 on with Bako up to tie this baby up! I'm being optimistic...

[jesusfan]

What is that???? That was ball 3!!

[jesusfan]

Javy Pinch hitting....

[jesusfan]

We need a big Javy Blast!

[reds44]

Good 2-0 swing by Bako.

[jesusfan]

shew... my goodness

[jesusfan]

5-2 after 6...

[Joseph]

not looking good

[jesusfan]

Stormy in...

[Joseph]

Typical Weathers.

[jesusfan]

well...

[NC Reds]

That didn't take long.

[jesusfan]

Pujols is hurt... Maybe a calf cramp?

[jesusfan]

They will keep winning... watch and see... You hate to see that to a great player though...

[Stormy]

Year in and year out, the St. Louis Cardinals are the best managed and best coached (two very different concepts) team in the National League. I'm not sure I've ever seen anyone get more out of less than Tony's staff, regardless of how much I dislike that franchise... That being said, if Pujols just tore that muscle, the Cards season is in a world of hurt.

[Red in Chicago]

george must be beside himself right now

[jesusfan]

Year in and year out, the St. Louis Cardinals are the best managed and best coached (two very different concepts) team in the National League. I'm not sure I've ever seen anyone get more out of less than Tony's staff, regardless of how much I dislike that franchise... That being said, if Pujols just tore that muscle, the Cards season is in a world of hurt.

who knows, they will probably bring up some dude from AA and he will rake the rest of the year... That is how it is with the Cards... They always seem to strike gold... I don't think it is luck either, it's called good management and good coaching... nice concept...

[jesusfan]

6-2 mid 7...

[Always Red]

One theory is that his command is so poor, that he has taken a bunch off of his fastball in an attempt to throw strikes. I remember reading somewhere that he could still get it up there, but had no idea where it was going when he did. Not sure if its true, but it fits the facts.

Plus, his ball does not move at all. Straight as an arrow.

Shockingly, Belisle throws harder than Homer, with more movement on his ball, than does Homer these days. And it wasn't enough to keep Belisle out of AAA.

Which is Homer will be going next.

[flyer85]

Typical Weathers.the abnormally low HR rate of 2007 has rebounded with a vengeance

[jesusfan]

Calf strains can take as long as 4 months to heal from and maybe even need surgery... much like an achilles tendon rupture... it could be bad...

[jesusfan]

I told you they would find another superstar to man first... Joe Mather is his name...

[jesusfan]

Keppinger needs to get back quick, like next inning quick...

[reds44]

Jay Bruce loves him some hackin.

[cincrazy]

who knows, they will probably bring up some dude from AA and he will rake the rest of the year... That is how it is with the Cards... They always seem to strike gold... I don't think it is luck either, it's called good management and good coaching... nice concept...

I see what you're saying about the Cards. I respect them a ton, they're a hell of a franchise. But they can NOT withstand losing Pujols. If he's done for the season, so are the Cardinals, and the wild card race is WIDE open

[Stormy]

who knows, they will probably bring up some dude from AA and he will rake the rest of the year... That is how it is with the Cards... They always seem to strike gold... I don't think it is luck either, it's called good management and good coaching... nice concept...

So true. From the time they milked months of 1100OPS baseball from a 36 year old Will Clark standing in for an injured McGwire in 2000 en route to the division crown... this team has found ways to coerce career best production from every cast-off, has-been, and never-was you can shake a stick at. It's simply amazing to behold.

[Kc61]

All these kudos to the Cards are great and I disliked Bailey's performance as much as anyone.

But the Reds consistently fail to score runs against new pitchers and back of the rotation pitchers.

Early this year it seemed like the team was facing aces every day. The year started against Webb and Haren. Followed by other star pitchers. Reds had some problems with them.

But there is no excuse for a major league team to be flailing against the AA guy at Florida and now this guy Boggs, among others. Yes, Hairston and Kepp were both lost, but other teams have injuries too.

If the Reds can't hit Mitchell Boggs and Ryan Tucker and Phil Dumatrait, they are going no place. Fast.

[jesusfan]

The Reds are very flat tonight....

[Joseph]

Somewhere Scott Hattebergs agent is on the phone with St. Louis.

[Stormy]

Keppinger needs to get back quick, like next inning quick...

One of the best hopes of this team producing anything approaching consistent offense the remainder of this season is getting Keppinger back soon, and pairing him with Bruce atop the order *everyday* from that point forward. A few OBP machine tabble setters will do wonders for the 3-6 portions of the lineup (and if we could only get Dunn moved to #3 in the process, we might actually be in business).

[flyer85]

But the Reds consistently fail to score runs against new pitchers and back of the rotation pitchers.poor approach and poor hitters(not everyone, but enough of em)

[HokieRed]

It's sad to see how bad the Reds look in comparison to a really first-rate organization like the Cardinals. We've just become a laughing-stock, perennial losers, not even competitive, loaded up with a lot of mediocre players that we incredibly overvalue and prospects who really aren't prospects.

[Tommyjohn25]

Phillips BA now down below .270.

[reds44]

It's sad to see how bad the Reds look in comparison to a really first-rate organization like the Cardinals. We've just become a laughing-stock, perennial losers, not even competitive, loaded up with a lot of mediocre players that we incredibly overvalue and prospects who really aren't prospects.
Yeah, that parts not really true.

[letsgojunior]

Phillips looks lost up there lately.

[Kc61]

Phillips looks lost up there lately.

Phillips needs a day off and some adjustments.

[Wheelhouse]

Phillips looks lost up there lately.

Philips has a little bit of Aaron Boone disease: a 30 hr guy who swings like a 50 hr guy. Scout him correctly you'll get a grounder to short every at bat.

[jesusfan]

Tribute to Nuxy, Griffey return home from 600 and they come out flat! No Excuses!

[reds44]

Tribute to Nuxy, Griffey return home from 600 and they come out flat! No Excuses!
They played a better team and they had a bd pitcher on the mound.

That'll kill emotion.

[flyer85]

EE perfect example of the problems ... swings at ball 4 and takes strike 3

[NC Reds]

No game thread would be complete without noting the incompetence of Corey Patterson. Good night all.

[Degenerate39]

What a proper way to end a game with C.Patt striking out.

[Red in Chicago]

springer strikes out the sides...at least it was quick tonight...

[letsgojunior]

Will the Corey Patterson experiment ever end?

[Wheelhouse]

Tribute to Nuxy, Griffey return home from 600 and they come out flat! No Excuses!

For all RZ hates scrappy, this team is flat without the scrappy Hairston. And the Cards are packed with scrappy players taking it to the Reds. The non scrappy Edwin turned in the worst AB Ive seen in weeks in the ninth. On a night when the Reds celebrate history, its all too obvious there aren't the leaders on this team to get it juiced for the present.

[Falls City Beer]

This game was over the second they pencilled in Bailey's name.

He's not a major league starting pitcher right now. And if he ever is it will have to be with a wholly different approach; no way in hell he becomes a bulldozing high-K pitcher with the stuff he possesses. If he sticks in the majors, he will have made a sea change.

[reds44]

For all RZ hates scrappy, this team is flat without the scrappy Hairston. And the Cards are packed with scrappy players taking it to the Reds. The non scrappy Edwin turned in the worst AB Ive seen in weeks in the ninth. On a night when the Reds celebrate history, its all too obvious there aren't the leaders on this team to get it juiced for the present.
Is this a serious post? The Reds didn't miss Hairston's "scrapiness" they misssed his bat. They replaced his .336/.382/.480 with a guy hitting .237. And lets blame the guy who went 3-4 tonight for swinging at a bad 3-1 in a 5 run game in the 9th.

[reds44]

This game was over the second they pencilled in Bailey's name.

He's not a major league starting pitcher right now. And if he ever is it will have to be with a wholly different approach; no way in hell he becomes a bulldozing high-K pitcher with the stuff he possesses. If he sticks in the majors, he will have made a sea change.
This.

[RedsManRick]

Philips has a little bit of Aaron Boone disease: a 30 hr guy who swings like a 50 hr guy. Scout him correctly you'll get a grounder to short every at bat.

C'mon, that's not true. Sometimes you'll get get a grounder to 2B. Phillips seems to have adopted the approach that he's a power hitter. He'd be a lot better off swinging like he was a 15 HR guy. Just ask Chase Utley -- or Joey Votto for that matter.

[Wheelhouse]

Is this a serious post? The Reds didn't miss Hairston's "scrapiness" they misssed his bat. They replaced his .336/.382/.480 with a guy hitting .237. And lets blame the guy who went 3-4 tonight for swinging at a bad 3-1 in a 5 run game in the 9th.

I did not blame Edwin for the loss, but merely pointed out it was a horrific at-bat. Chris Welch noticed it as well.

[Stormy]

For all RZ hates scrappy, this team is flat without the scrappy Hairston. And the Cards are packed with scrappy players taking it to the Reds. The non scrappy Edwin turned in the worst AB Ive seen in weeks in the ninth. On a night when the Reds celebrate history, its all too obvious there aren't the leaders on this team to get it juiced for the present.

You should include phrases like 'mentally tough', 'proficiency' and 'sound execution' to that description (even though I think Hairston's contributions are a blip on the radar screen, and somewhat irrelevant to the big picture). Virtually every year, regardless of the talent level of the cast and crew, the Cardinals coax exceptionally proficient and professional plate appearances out of their personnel. They pretty much execute in every aspect of the game, and as a result they exceed expectations, and their sum is greater than the parts therein.

By contrast, the mentally enervated Reds' team usually displays a production and consistency that greatly underperforms the sum of it's individual talents. It's yet another reason why the tactically flawed and plate discipline bereft Dusty Baker was a terrible fit for this squad.

[Marc D]

You should include phrases like 'mentally tough', 'proficiency' and 'sound execution' to that description (even though I think Hairston's contributions are a blip on the radar screen, and somewhat irrelevant to the big picture). Virtually every year, regardless of the talent level of the cast and crew, the Cardinals coax exceptionally proficient and professional plate appearances out of their personnel. They pretty much execute in every aspect of the game, and as a result they exceed expectations, and their sum is greater than the parts therein.

By contrast, the mentally enervated Reds' team usually displays a production and consistency that greatly underperforms the sum of it's individual talents. It's yet another reason why the tactically flawed and plate discipline bereft Dusty Baker was a terrible fit for this squad.

That is the most concise summary of the difference in the two teams I have seen to date. Great post.

On paper as an individual at this point in their careers, how many guys from St Louis would you take over his counterpart from the Reds? Put Bruce in RF and I would take the Cards 1B, C and CF. Thats about it. Yet even with a massive amount of injuries they are 12 games over .500, we are 5 games under(and counting).

I normally side with the stats guys but our team needs a culture change. I know we'll never replace his numbers but Dunn, JR and anyone not named Bruce, Volquez or Cueto can go for the right price as far as I'm concerned. There is something fundamentally dysfunctional in that clubhouse, it needs to be exorcised.

Sad to say but this is the day I give up on yet another season.

[reds44]

Well, we have one less thing to worry about the next 2 days.


* Word from the Cardinals clubhouse is to expect Pujols to go on the disabled list. He had a preexisting calf injury and this could mean a lengthy stay on the DL.

[Degenerate39]

Well, we have one less thing to worry about the next 2 days.

This could affect the Cards chances at the Wild Card significantly but at least he won't hit his 300th homer at GABP.

[WVRedsFan]

You should include phrases like 'mentally tough', 'proficiency' and 'sound execution' to that description (even though I think Hairston's contributions are a blip on the radar screen, and somewhat irrelevant to the big picture). Virtually every year, regardless of the talent level of the cast and crew, the Cardinals coax exceptionally proficient and professional plate appearances out of their personnel. They pretty much execute in every aspect of the game, and as a result they exceed expectations, and their sum is greater than the parts therein.

By contrast, the mentally enervated Reds' team usually displays a production and consistency that greatly underperforms the sum of it's individual talents. It's yet another reason why the tactically flawed and plate discipline bereft Dusty Baker was a terrible fit for this squad.

Well put.

[11larkin11]

This game was over the second they pencilled in Bailey's name.

He's not a major league starting pitcher right now. And if he ever is it will have to be with a wholly different approach; no way in hell he becomes a bulldozing high-K pitcher with the stuff he possesses. If he sticks in the majors, he will have made a sea change.

If he has one more outing like this, against Boston albeit, I like the idea of giving him the Volquez/Dontrelle treatment: See you in the FSL Homer. And I was a proponent of bringing him up too. He needs some teaching, and God know Dick freaking Pole ain't gonna do it.

[redsmetz]

So did anyone who was at the game see the birthday greetings to my dad and youngest brothers for their 80th and 40th birthdays?

[Matt700wlw]

Will the Corey Patterson experiment ever end?

Time to CUT him - he serves absolutely no purpose on this team. He's the new Juan Castro.

[nate]

Time to CUT him - he serves absolutely no purpose on this team. He's the new Juan Castro.

Except CP can actually play really good defense.

He doesn't do much else, but used as a late inning defensive replacement or pinch runner, he's useful. Maybe not at $3mm/year, but he has his uses.

[Matt700wlw]

Except CP can actually play really good defense.

He doesn't do much else, but used as a late inning defensive replacement or pinch runner, he's useful. Maybe not at $3mm/year, but he has his uses.

Yes, he can play defense...however, he's being used a pinch hitter predominately.

He can't hit when he plays regularly.

[nate]

Yes, he can play defense...however, he's being used a pinch hitter predominately.

That's the head dude's doing...dude!


He can't hit when he plays regularly.

He can't hit...in any situation. Can Bronson switch-hit? He's got the helmet for it.

[Matt700wlw]

I would say Walt Jocketty deserves a ton of credit for the depth that the St. Louis system appears to have...he was there forever.

Hopefully, he can do the same thing here. Let's give him the time and chance to do it.