Reds vs Nats 7/3/08

[Red in Chicago]

feel free to post lineups...

[RedsManRick]

Per C Trent:

Redlegs

1. Jerry Hairston Jr. cf
2. Jeff Keppinger ss
3. Ken Griffey Jr. rf
4. Prandon Phillips 2b
5. Edwin Encarnacion 3b
6. Joey Votto 1b
7. Jay Bruce lf
8. David Ross c
9. Johnny Cueto p

Former Redlegs

1. Roger Bernadina cf
2. Cristian Guzman ss
3. Elijah Dukes lf
4. Dmitri Young 1b
5. Austin Kearns rf
6. Ronnie Belliard 3b
7. Jesus Flores c
8. Willie Harris 2b
9. John Lannan p

[OnBaseMachine]

I don't like Bruce that low in the lineup.

[RedsManRick]

I don't like Bruce that low in the lineup.

It's the Adam Dunn honorary "I hit 2 balls a combined 850 feet yesterday and all I get was dropped in the lineup" 7th spot.

[Red in Chicago]

andy phillips is back

[nate]

Chat is open!

[KronoRed]

I don't like Bruce that low in the lineup.

Dusty and his lefty use other then JR is sort of baffling.

[OnBaseMachine]

Six up six down for Cueto with three K's on only 18 pitches.

[Bob Borkowski]

No score after one and one-half.

[OnBaseMachine]

The Brewers had a 5-0 lead going into the bottom of the 9th in Arizona today and allowed six runs to lose the game.

[WVRedsFan]

I may have seen more boring baseball teams offensively, but I can't remember one this bad. I hadn't started counting, but I wonder how many ground balls to second short and first happen tonight?

[WVRedsFan]

With only 11 of us here tonight, we barely have enough to field a football team.

[Screwball]

The Brewers had a 5-0 lead going into the bottom of the 9th in Arizona today and allowed six runs to lose the game.

Surprisingly none of it was Gagne's fault.

Mota, Shouse, and Torres combined to give up 6 earned runs in 0.0 IP. :lol:

[OnBaseMachine]

First pitch popout to begin the 3rd. Cueto has retired the first seven on 19 pitches.

[Red in Chicago]

Surprisingly none of it was Gagne's fault.

Mota, Shouse, and Torres combined to give up 6 earned runs in 0.0 IP. :lol:

gagne was the first thing i thought of too...that or that turnblow came back

[OnBaseMachine]

Four pitch popout to EdE. Two outs.

[OnBaseMachine]

Lannan K's on three pitches.

Cueto has retired all nine batters with four K's on 26 pitches.

[oneupper]

Man. This game will be over before Jeopardy!

[Screwball]

Like most LHPers, Lannan's stuff looks to be pretty tough on lefty hitters.

We need Hairston, Kepp, EE, Phillips and Ross to come up with some hits tonight.

[MikeS21]

With only 11 of us here tonight, we barely have enough to field a football team.
Everybody's over on the "Something's About To Happen" thread! :D

[OnBaseMachine]

Bruce grounded out.

Ross walked.

Cueto sac bunt.

Hairston RBI single, Hairston advances to second on throw.

1-0 Reds.

[Screwball]

Reds with a RISP and 2 outs and he scores. I don't think I've ever seen that before.

[lollipopcurve]

Hairston with another line drive.

[_Sir_Charles_]

*stumbles over the game thread doorway*

My head is spinning. Did the Reds just excecute perfect smallball?!?

Okay, who spiked my beer? :beerme:

[Screwball]

They just showed a graphic on FSN saying Hairston has a .426 (I think) OBP as a leadoff hitter. Mighty impressive there.

[MrCinatit]

Reds with a RISP and 2 outs and he scores. I don't think I've ever seen that before.

Back in the '70s, they did it all the time - but it was a different game then.

[Screwball]

Back in the '70s, they did it all the time - but it was a different game then.

As in the Reds had a boatload of insanely good players?

[OnBaseMachine]

Another groundout.

10 in a row retired by Cueto.

[oneupper]

Back in the '70s, they did it all the time - but it was a different game then.

I remember a lot of stolen bases and a lot of HRs...not so many sac bunts.

[OnBaseMachine]

Guzman reaches on an infield single. He beat the throw barely to break up the perfect game.

Last time he chased a nasty slider. This time they stick to fastballs for some reason.

[OnBaseMachine]

Dukes RBI double. Tie game.

[OnBaseMachine]

That's what I don't get. Guzman will chase just about anything out of the strikezone as evidenced by his first atbat, yet the Reds stuck to strictly fastball in that atbat. A nice slider gets him.

[OnBaseMachine]

Balk on Cueto moves the runner to 3rd. Damn. That should be an easy run with only one out.

[_Sir_Charles_]

Everybody's over on the "Something's About To Happen" thread! :D

Thanks, didn't see that. I came straight into the gamethread.

[OnBaseMachine]

After getting ahead 1-2 on Dmitri he walks him.

[RedsManRick]

I get the feeling Cueto would be better off staying in the windup. Let Dimitri have 2nd base.

[OnBaseMachine]

Kearns RBI single.

Cueto lost it quickly. He retired the first 10 batters on 30 pitches now four straight batters have reach base.

[OnBaseMachine]

Belliard K's looking.

5 K's for Cueto.

[OnBaseMachine]

Passed ball on Ross. He's awful.

[OnBaseMachine]

Popout to Votto.

2-1 Nats after 3 1/2.

[OnBaseMachine]

FWIW, only the double by Dukes was hit hard. The Guzman single was an infield hit and the Kearns RBI single was a groundball that took a favorable hop just out of reach of EdE.

[OnBaseMachine]

Cueto threw 26 pitches through three innings. He threw 30 in the fourth inning.

[mbgrayson]

How'd they do that? A five pitch inning, with a base hit included. Wow. Hacktastic.

No rest for a tired Cueto there. Very poor.

[OnBaseMachine]

Cueto allows a single on a 1-2 fastball to Willie Harris. Another guy who will chase anything. The only thing keeping Cueto from being a dominant pitcher right now is better pitch selection. Don't throw fastballs to guys who can only hit fastballs.

I've only seen a few changeups tonight and all have been great pitches. He needs to use that pitch more.

Lannan K's. #6.

[Screwball]

How'd they do that? A five pitch inning, with a base hit included. Wow. Hacktastic.

No rest for a tired Cueto there. Very poor.

I'm not sure what's more frustrating. The lack of hits/runs or the manner in which they're doing it.

[OnBaseMachine]

Hairston has a noodle arm. Flyball about 10-15 feet in front of warning track in dead center and Harris tags up and advances to second. No way that should happen.

Foul out to Ross. Inning over.

[Screwball]

Hairston has a noodle arm. Flyball about 10-15 feet in front of warning track in dead center and Harris tags up and advances to second. No way that should happen.


Hamilton would've had him. We should've traded Dunn for Volquez. :evil:

[OnBaseMachine]

Cueto: 5 IP, 4 H, 2 R, 1 BB, 6 K...69 pitches.

[OnBaseMachine]

Bruce draws a one out walk.

[Screwball]

Bruce shows a little patience and is rewarded with a walk. Amazing how that works.

[Screwball]

Flores says "One passed ball deserves another."

Very poor attempt to catch that pitch.

[_Sir_Charles_]

passed ball, bruce advances.

[_Sir_Charles_]

damn. Nice catch by Austin.

You think Jay should've advanced on that? I do.

[Screwball]

Ross gave one a ride to deep right but Kearns tracks it down. Despite his anemic production at the dish, it looks like Kearns is still an asset in the field.

[_Sir_Charles_]

Cueto k's, end of inning. 2-1 Nats after 5.

[Red in Chicago]

wow, dmitry running to second base is quite a site!!!!

[OnBaseMachine]

Dukes homers. Made him look foolish on a slider and then comes back with a inside fastball and Dukes homers.

[_Sir_Charles_]

Dukes with a lead off homer.

Young with a double to follow. Cueto coming unglued a bit. Time for a visit.

[Screwball]

Cueto gives up a HR to Dukes and a double to Meat Hook on back to back pitches.

Kearns and his 51 OPS+ steps in.

ETA: He hits a lazy fly ball to center for the 1st out.

[BuckeyeRedleg]

If I'm pitching, the next time Dukes comes to the plate I put one under his chin.

If you are going to do the Hip-hop Hooray run around the bases after posing you are going down.

[_Sir_Charles_]

Flores flies out to Junior to end the inning. 3-1 Nats, middle of 6.

And WLW quickly follows that up with "there together again!". Any chance we'll hear an end to those if Bronson goes bye-bye?

[WVRedsFan]

Never happen. Especially with Cueto.

[OnBaseMachine]

Cueto: 6 IP, 6 H, 3 R, 1 BB, 6 K...82 pitches.

I'd pull him next inning if someone reaches base.

[OnBaseMachine]

Never happen. Especially with Cueto.

Cueto is the one guy on the staff who would hit someone. He drilled two Indians last week and has shown he's not afraid to pitch inside.

[WVRedsFan]

Cueto is the one guy on the staff who would hit someone. He drilled two Indians last week and has shown he's not afraid to pitch inside.

Maybe so, but I always get the impression he's on a short leash. Regardless, this team has never been one to retaliate.

[Screwball]

Cueto: 6 IP, 6 H, 3 R, 1 BB, 6 K...82 pitches.


Maybe it's because it's against the offensively-challenged Nationals, but it seems like he's pitched worse than that.

[_Sir_Charles_]

Hairston walks, Kepp grounds out, Hairston advances.

Junior K's

Brandon coming up.

[OnBaseMachine]

Phillips RBI single.

3-2 Nats.

[_Sir_Charles_]

Brandon singles and Hairston scores.

[_Sir_Charles_]

Edwin first pitch single. Brandon to third. Nice.

[RedsManRick]

Lucky break and EE bloops a single. Seems like he's getting started with high stuff every AB -- and chasing it.

[OnBaseMachine]

EdE bloop single and Votto ties it with a RBI single.

[RedsManRick]

Votto with an RBI single. First-pitch, 2 out hitting!

[_Sir_Charles_]

Broken bat single for Votto. 3-3! Nice two out rally!

[Screwball]

All three runs tonight have come with 2 outs. None have come on a homer.

Only against Reds-East.

[jesusfan]

C'mon Bruce!

[RedsManRick]

Bruce strikes out chasing the same pitch 3 times.

[jesusfan]

I guess all you have to do is throw Bruce something with a loop...

[_Sir_Charles_]

Bruce k's but we pick up 2 to tie it 3-3 at the end of 6.

[_Sir_Charles_]

Harris with a lead off single to left.

[RedsManRick]

Not EE's best night. Lets a very fieldable ball go under his glove.

[OnBaseMachine]

Harris singles on 1-2.

I'd pull Cueto now.

EdE usually makes that play.

[OnBaseMachine]

The lack of usage of the changeup tonight is baffling. He seemed to use it more in his last two starts-three starts and the results were very good.

[_Sir_Charles_]

I'd pull Cueto now.

No way I pull him yet. He's not even to 90 pitches yet and despite 3 runs scoring, he's thrown the ball very well. A few hard hit balls, but a good portion of seeing eye hits/bloops too. I'd hang with him for a bit more.

[OnBaseMachine]

Big strike him out throw him out double play. Two outs.

[RedsManRick]

Strike 'em out, throw 'em out!

[_Sir_Charles_]

NICE. K and a CS for a Double Play. You don't see THAT one very often. :O)

[OnBaseMachine]

Strikeout #8 to end the inning. Nasty slider there.

[_Sir_Charles_]

K to end the inning. Like I said...leave him in there for a bit more. He's still throwing solidly.

[OnBaseMachine]

Another very good outing from Cueto.

7 IP, 7 H, 3 R, 1 BB, 8 K

Only three or four balls were hit hard IIRC. He's at 95 pitches and due up 2nd so his night should be over.

[_Sir_Charles_]

I agree. Now we pull him.

[_Sir_Charles_]

Corey hitting for Cueto. I'm not sure that's an improvement hitting-wise.

[_Sir_Charles_]

First pitch swinging(HUGE surprise)...or bunting I should say. Safe on error...on YOUNG?!? LOL. No way that should be on young. That was on the pitcher without a doubt.

[RedsManRick]

He's going to regress at some point, but Hairston is some kind of hot.

[WrongVerb]

Patterson falls down rounding third. *sigh*

[_Sir_Charles_]

Line drive single. Patterson falls down and has to stop at third. :rolleyes: Can we pinch run Cueto for Patterson? :O)

[OnBaseMachine]

Patterson should have scored easily but fell down and has to hold at third. Hopefully that doesn't cost the Reds a run and Cueto a chance to win the game.

[lollipopcurve]

Folks, Hairston can play a little bit.

[_Sir_Charles_]

Kepp intentional walk to load the bases. Junior approaches! Salami-time!

[_Sir_Charles_]

Manning in to pitch to Junior.

[_Sir_Charles_]

quickly down 0-2

[RedsManRick]

I tell Junior to bunt it down the first base line. Patterson can move faster than da meat hook and Junior is a double play waiting to happen.

[_Sir_Charles_]

I tell Junior to bunt it down the first base line. Patterson can move faster than da meat hook and Junior is a double play waiting to happen.

Yikes. Junior bunting? No thanks.

[_Sir_Charles_]

Pop up to third. Nobody advances. 2 down. And another pitching change coming.

[OnBaseMachine]

Griffey pops out.

Looks like Patterson falling down will cost the Reds a run and Cueto a potential victory. Nope. Phillips makes em pay with a 2-run double!

[Kc61]

Good decision by Nats to load the bases and bring in a lefty to face Jr. As Dusty's son said, Griff can't hit lefties anymore. If politics were out of this game, Dusty would have sent up a righty like Hopper to hit for Griffey in that spot.

[_Sir_Charles_]

Ayala in to pitch. 1-4 with a 5.44 era. Never seen him though.

[Kc61]

Anyone notice that Phillips has been playing all star caliber ball for the last few weeks?

[_Sir_Charles_]

Base smack! 2 in. First pitch double. 5-3 reds.

[_Sir_Charles_]

I think they're scoring that as a single and advancing on the throw. Edwin grounds out to end the inning. But damage is done. 5-3 Reds at the end of 7.

[_Sir_Charles_]

Burton in to pitch.

Patterson in center, Bruce in right. Junior out.

[Tom Servo]

I hate that Burton pitches seemingly every day. And now there's a leadoff double.

[_Sir_Charles_]

Ground rule double.

[CrackerJack]

Anyone notice that Phillips has been playing all star caliber ball for the last few weeks?

Gets no love here for being a free swinger who can't hit righties, despite over-all stellar production/#'s and defense.

If they aren't perfect, they aren't RedsZone approved. :)

[_Sir_Charles_]

Dukes walks. 1st and 2nd, no outs. Very Un-Burtonlike.

[mbgrayson]

Since when has Burton been clean shaven?

[_Sir_Charles_]

Gets no love here for being a free swinger who can't hit righties, despite over-all stellar production/#'s and defense.

If they aren't perfect, they aren't RedsZone approved. :)

I agree. But then again, hitting him in the same line-up spot versus righties/lefties isn't very bright.

[_Sir_Charles_]

Young hits into a Phillips. 2 down. :O) If it wasn't for the fact that Young runs like a slug...*grin*

[Kc61]

Gets no love here for being a free swinger who can't hit righties, despite over-all stellar production/#'s and defense.

If they aren't perfect, they aren't RedsZone approved. :)


You want love on RedsZone you had better walk a lot.

Second straight non-stellar outing for Burton. But since Dmitry is incredibly slow he gets a DP and maybe no damage. Two outs man on third.

And, of course, Phillips with a terrific play on the DP.

Kearns flies out. As I said, Burton was terrific tonight. No runs score.

[_Sir_Charles_]

Kearns flies out deep to right. Burton escapes. Can that be called "pulling a Weathers" yet?

[_Sir_Charles_]

Shell in to pitch.

[Kc61]

I agree. But then again, hitting him in the same line-up spot versus righties/lefties isn't very bright.

It's not ideal, but unless you want lefty after lefty Philips needs to hit there. He's hit cleanup under all of the recent managers. Reason -- no real cleanup hitter here. They should get one and drop BP to fifth or sixth.

[_Sir_Charles_]

Edwin could do it....in a pinch.

[_Sir_Charles_]

Votto flies out to left. The next big thing approaches.

[Screwball]

You want love on RedsZone you had better walk a lot.


Yeah, we like our batters to get on base. Outright nutty if you ask me.

[OnBaseMachine]

3-1 on Bruce...foul makes it 3-2...he K's swinging on a high fastball.

At least he's back to going deep in the count like he did when he was first called up.

[_Sir_Charles_]

Bruce strikes out. *sigh* I love the kid, but he does have a tendency to k.

[Screwball]

At least he's back to going deep in the count like he did when he was first called up.

Yep. I think he's made the adjustment-to-the-adjustment, so to speak.

[Screwball]

Bruce strikes out. *sigh* I love the kid, but he does have a tendency to k.

You say that like strikeouts are worse than any other out.

[_Sir_Charles_]

Ross goes down swinging. 3 down. 5-3 reds at the end of 8. Cordero warmed and ready to roll.

[Kc61]

Edwin could do it.

Unfortunately, EE doesn't hit for enough power to be a good cleanup hitter. And, like most Reds hitters, he's not a high average guy, hitting below .250 this year. But mostly he lacks cleanup power.

Phillips is outslugging EE this year by .491 to .453.

EE does have good on base skills and, if he got his BA up a little, I wouldn't mind him hitting second. But even Phillips is a better cleanup candidate.

I know. Phillips doesn't walk that much.

[CrackerJack]

You want love on RedsZone you had better walk a lot.

Yeah and I get that, think his negatives are focused on too much here, versus all the positives he brings. Could be one of the top 5 most entertaining players to watch. Larkin-like without the plate discipline.

[_Sir_Charles_]

You say that like strikeouts are any worse than any other out.

Ummm...they're not? Is this one of those sabermetric theories? K's are inning killers. Ground ball outs and fly ball outs can both advance or even score a runner. They put the pressure on the defense to actually MAKE a play instead of bailing out the defense with a k.

Of course, if you're being sarcastic....nevermind. :O)

[Screwball]

Ummm...they're not? Is this one of those sabermetric theories? K's are inning killers. Ground ball outs and fly ball outs can both advance or even score a runner. They put the pressure on the defense to actually MAKE a play instead of bailing out the defense with a k.


Well, I'd rather not debate this in a game thread where the Reds are actually gonna win <knocks on wood>, but there's mountains of data that says, on the macro level, strikeouts don't matter at all as they're no different than any other out. In fact, sometimes better as they don't produce GIDPs.

[_Sir_Charles_]

Unfortunately, EE doesn't hit for enough power to be a good cleanup hitter. And, like most Reds hitters, he's not a high average guy, hitting below .250 this year. But mostly he lacks cleanup power.

Phillips is outslugging EE this year by .491 to .453.

EE does have good on base skills and, if he got his BA up a little, I wouldn't mind him hitting second. But even Phillips is a better cleanup candidate.

I know. Phillips doesn't walk that much.

Well, like I said...in a pinch. The thing that gives Edwin an edge at cleanup for me is the fact that he doesn't alter his approach when he's in that spot. But then again, the whole concept of breaking up the lefties bothers me. I couldn't care less if we have 5 lefties in a row. The only time that matters or comes into play is when the opposition starts bringing in the relievers. And with Dusty's love for the double switch...those matchups are going to get destroyed no matter what.

[_Sir_Charles_]

Fly out. Strike out.

Grounder to Brandon. And this one belongs to the Reds! :O)

5-3 final.

Cueto 7-8 era down to 4.63 8 k's/1 bb
Cordero save #16

Hairston 2-3
Phillips 3-4 with 3 ribbies

[OnBaseMachine]

Nice win.

Good game by Cueto.

[CrackerJack]

Yeah, we like our batters to get on base. Outright nutty if you ask me.

BP more than makes up for that weakeness, I believe, it's other guys that need to pick up the slack in that area, if they're not going to hit for average, provide more power, defense and SB's.

[gm]

Ummm...they're not? Is this one of those sabermetric theories? K's are inning killers. Ground ball outs and fly ball outs can both advance or even score a runner. They put the pressure on the defense to actually MAKE a play instead of bailing out the defense with a k.



That's enough of that! Stop making sense!

It's a good thing Patterson didn't whiff instead of nubbing the ball back to the pitcher tonight, eh?

[AtomicDumpling]

Ummm...they're not? Is this one of those sabermetric theories? K's are inning killers. Ground ball outs and fly ball outs can both advance or even score a runner. They put the pressure on the defense to actually MAKE a play instead of bailing out the defense with a k.

Of course, if you're being sarcastic....nevermind. :O)

The analyses I have seen show that on average a strike out is no more harmful than hitting into an out. The chances of advancing the runner while making an out are canceled out by the chances of hitting into a double play. There are many kinds of double plays to consider -- traditional ground ball double play, line drive out with the runner getting doubled off, hitting a fly ball and having the runner thrown out after tagging up and a couple of others.

We should focus 100% of our attention on how often a hitter makes an out rather than how he makes an out.

[VR]

The analyses I have seen show that on average a strike out is no more harmful than hitting into an out. The chances of advancing the runner while making an out are canceled out by the chances of hitting into a double play. There are many kinds of double plays to consider -- traditional ground ball double play, line drive out with the runner getting doubled off, hitting a fly ball and having the runner thrown out after tagging up and a couple of others.

We should focus 100% of our attention on how often a hitter makes an out rather than how he makes an out.

Do we quit looking to acquire and develop pitchers that can strike people out?

[Cyclone792]

Kudos to Johnny Cueto for a really nice game. Granted, he pitched against a lousy offense, but there's nothing wrong with eight strikeouts, one walk and only three runs in seven full innings of work. He looked sharp doing it too.

[_Sir_Charles_]

*sigh* I just can't tell when some of you are being sarcastic or not. If you're serious AtomicDumpling, I just can't understand that theory. It's so wrong it's mind-boggling. Sure, you could hit into a double play. But anything can happen when you put the ball into play. You simply MUST force the defense to get you out.

[Raisor]

*sigh* I just can't tell when some of you are being sarcastic or not. If you're serious AtomicDumpling, I just can't understand that theory. It's so wrong it's mind-boggling. Sure, you could hit into a double play. But anything can happen when you put the ball into play. You simply MUST force the defense to get you out.

Please do a search of the site. You'll find dozens of threads about it with thousands of posts on both sides of the issues.

[Screwball]

Do we quit looking to acquire and develop pitchers that can strike people out?

If they otherwise give up a bunch of walks (high OBP&#37;) and XBH (high SLG%), then yes, we should.

[Raisor]

If they otherwise give up a bunch of walks (high OBP%) and a XBH (high SLG%), then yes, we should.

and that's it in a nutshell.

It's how many outs you make, not how you make them.

[_Sir_Charles_]

Please do a search of the site. You'll find dozens of threads about it with thousands of posts on both sides of the issues.

Yeah, I figured as much. I haven't had much time to go back and read through all those saber-stat laced threads. But regardless, I can't see ANY theory changing my mind that standing in the box and doing NOTHING is the same (or even preferable) to putting the bat on the ball. Not only do you make the pitcher work more (foul balls and such) but you FORCE the defense to make a play. If they're able to make the play, fine. I can live with that. But a man on third and you strike out simply demoralizes an offense.

[gm]

*sigh* I just can't tell when some of you are being sarcastic or not. If you're serious AtomicDumpling, I just can't understand that theory. It's so wrong it's mind-boggling. Sure, you could hit into a double play. But anything can happen when you put the ball into play. You simply MUST force the defense to get you out.

Hitter strikes out with runner on 1st and less than 2 outs. He goes back to the dugout and tells the coaches "Hey, it's OK, I read somewhere on the internet that a strikeout is the same as any other out...at least I didn't hit into a DP!"

How many times do you see a close game decided by an error in the late innings? Winning teams put the ball in play and wait for losing teams to throw the ball away. Then they pounce with a game-winning rally.

(But don't worry, someone will come along any minute now with a 12 paragraph post explaining why this only happens 0.2% of the time in MLB)

[Screwball]

Kudos to Johnny Cueto for a really nice game. Granted, he pitched against a lousy offense, but there's nothing wrong with eight strikeouts, one walk and only three runs in seven full innings of work. He looked sharp doing it too.

Yeah, you and OBM are right. I guess I just got discouraged that the Nats' sub-par offense was able to score 3 runs off him when he looked so good in the beginning.

As Ross just said in his post-game interview with Pic, Cueto looked like he had no-hit stuff in the first couple innings. But a couple of young mistakes shouldn't overshadow his solid outing tonight.

[Raisor]

I can't see ANY theory changing my mind .

It's hard to learn anything when you don't want to.

[_Sir_Charles_]

It's hard to learn anything when you don't want to.

No, it's not that. I've got an open mind. But there is more to baseball than JUST numbers, stats and percentages. There IS an emotional aspect to the game. A strikeout does affect teams emotionally and that can't be tracked by a stat. It DOES demoralize an offense. It DOES pump up that opposing pitcher. And it DOES put even MORE pressure on the next batter coming up. If you constantly see hitters putting bat on ball, you don't get the feeling that the guy is unhittable and go up there with a defeatist attitute. A LOT of this game is about your mindset and how you approach things. And I rarely (if ever) see sabermetric discussions take that into account.

But like I said, once I get time I will go back and read more of those threads. I'm not "against" sabermetric stats. I see the validity in many of them. But I also see many "old school" stats overlooked & ignored in favor of them like they have no validity what-so-ever. A large majority of the saberstats...I have no clue what they are...yet. The most important ones I do though. I'm not a sabermetric fan or an old-school stat fan. I'm a baseball fan.

[Raisor]

Since this is a game thread, this will be my last post on the subject here, but just FYI:

The Red Opps. have K'd 68 more times then the Reds this season.

I'd hate to see the Reds record, I guess, if the other side weren't so defeatest after all those K's.