Ken Rosenthal on the Dan Patrick show today...

[REDblooded]

He basically said that their is little to no interest in Adam Dunn (really?........ but he's so amazing!). He said that he thinks it's unlikely the Reds trade him, because they probably won't get anything better than the 2 draft picks they'll receive if he walks in the offseason.

[PTI (pti)]

Seth Everett said the exact same thing a few weeks ago....



.....and then he compared him to Gorman Thomas.




Uh-huh. :rolleyes:

[Ghosts of 1990]

Rosenthal is so obvious. It's annoying that he's now basically the Jay Glazer of baseball.

Dunn has value but not what we're commanding for him. When he finishes with very good #'s again, hopefully the clowns in the FO do something right for once and re-sign him.

[improbus]

I promised never to comment on Dunn again and so I will refrain from the upcoming battle...
BUT I JUST CAN'T HELP MYSELF!!! (I'm an addict)

If your going to rent-a-player, you want the following traits:
-Postseason Experience (Dunn has none)
-Pennant Chase Experience (Dunn has none)

You have to understand, there is a reason Dunn has only been an All-Star once (and he was the lone Red, which is sometimes means that you had to pick someone). I don't think Dunn is thought of very highly around the game (remember the Blue Jays GM's comments - even if they were out of line and probably false, that is still that "perception" of Dunn around the league)

[Ghosts of 1990]

I promised never to comment on Dunn again and so I will refrain from the upcoming battle...
BUT I JUST CAN'T HELP MYSELF!!! (I'm an addict)

If your going to rent-a-player, you want the following traits:
-Postseason Experience (Dunn has none)
-Pennant Chase Experience (Dunn has none)

You have to understand, there is a reason Dunn has only been an All-Star once (and he was the lone Red, which is sometimes means that you had to pick someone). I don't think Dunn is thought of very highly around the game (remember the Blue Jays GM's comments - even if they were out of line and probably false, that is still that "perception" of Dunn around the league)

Go back and research the facts.

2002, 1st half of the season Dunn hit .300 (yes Adam Dunn/.300) and had nearly 20 HR with 54 RBI if I remember right. He was an All-Star deservedly then and has been snubbed at least twice since then, although this year is not a snub.

The All-Star game is a joke and a popularity contest. The day players start getting judged on all star games anymore is the day I have to stop following the sport.

Jason Varitek?

[Ghosts of 1990]

Here you go, Dunn before the All-Star Break 2002:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/pi/gl.cgi?share=1&n1=dunnad01&year=2002&t=b#67:151:sum

[thatcoolguy_22]

I promised never to comment on Dunn again and so I will refrain from the upcoming battle...
BUT I JUST CAN'T HELP MYSELF!!! (I'm an addict)

If your going to rent-a-player, you want the following traits:
-Postseason Experience (Dunn has none)
-Pennant Chase Experience (Dunn has none)

You have to understand, there is a reason Dunn has only been an All-Star once (and he was the lone Red, which is sometimes means that you had to pick someone). I don't think Dunn is thought of very highly around the game (remember the Blue Jays GM's comments - even if they were out of line and probably false, that is still that "perception" of Dunn around the league)


Not having post season or "pennant chase" experience is no fault of Adam Dunn. The whole concept of he's clutch is close to being non existant.

Its just the product of small sample size combined with extraordinary exposure.

Besides the career numbers of HoF'er Reggie Jackson show a hitter who average 28 HR a year with a .260 average but he is labled mister October basically because of exploits in game 6 of the '77 series.

We do not know what the Reds have been asking for in trade or if we are even receiving calls. Dunn also has a list of 10 teams that he is willing to accept a trade to. Depending on the teams listed he could literally be handcuffing our FO. Random speculation by Ken Rosenthal is as worthy of discussion as a rumor heard on mlbtraderumors.com.

Trying to judge a player by his team's performance really only works in men's singles tennis. Besides that it is faulty EVERY single time.

[RedsFanInBama]

I wouldn't mind re-signing Dunn at all, but I guess I figured that just wasn't going to happen. He is frustrating as hell at times, but also is very productive.

[thatcoolguy_22]

Go back and research the facts.

2002, 1st half of the season Dunn hit .300 (yes Adam Dunn/.300) and had nearly 20 HR with 54 RBI if I remember right. He was an All-Star deservedly then and has been snubbed at least twice since then, although this year is not a snub.

The All-Star game is a joke and a popularity contest. The day players start getting judged on all star games anymore is the day I have to stop following the sport.

Jason Varitek?


Its old but shows the popularity contest which is The All Star game, for its true colors. Also its always a fun read

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_League_Baseball_All-Star_Game#Stuffing_the_ballot_box

[edit] Stuffing the ballot box
In 1957, fans of the Cincinnati Reds stuffed the ballot box and elected 7 Reds players to start in the All-Star Game. They were:

Johnny Temple, 2B
Roy McMillan, SS
Don Hoak, 3B
Ed Bailey, C
Frank Robinson, LF
Gus Bell, CF
Wally Post, RF
The only non-Red elected to start for the National League was St. Louis Cardinals' first baseman Stan Musial. While the Reds were known to be a great offensive team with many outstanding position players, most baseball observers agreed that they did not deserve seven starters in the All-Star Game. An investigation showed that over half of the ballots cast came from Cincinnati. The Cincinnati Enquirer had printed up pre-marked ballots and distributed them with the Sunday newspaper to make it easy for Reds fans to vote often. There were even stories of bars in Cincinnati not serving alcohol to customers until they filled out a ballot.

Commissioner Ford Frick decided to appoint Willie Mays of the New York Giants and Hank Aaron of the Milwaukee Braves to substitute for Reds players Gus Bell and Wally Post. In addition, Frick decided to strip the fans of their voting rights. Managers, players, and coaches picked the entire team until 1969, when the vote again returned to the fans.

To guard against further ballot stuffing, since 1969, each team has been given the same number of ballots to hand out. In 1998, that number was roughly 400,000 ballots. Since the dawn of the internet age, online voting has again raised fears of ballot stuffing. In one incident in 1999, Nomar Garciaparra gained over 14,000 votes thanks to an automated computer program.[6] Major League Baseball assures its fans that they have taken precautions to guard against this. Similarly, popular players who are injured often garner many votes despite their inability to play in the game.

The 1988 Game was surrounded by tacit accusations against Oakland A's fans of stuffing the ballot box in favor of catcher Terry Steinbach, whose qualifications as a starter were questioned by some sportswriters.[7][8] [9] Steinbach wound up being named the game's Most Valuable Player.

In 2006, eight of the nine starting players for the American League team at one point in the balloting were members of the New York Yankees or Boston Red Sox, two of the most popular teams in baseball.

[ChatterRed]

All I'm going to say is we can do better than Dunn.

[Ghosts of 1990]

All I'm going to say is we can do better than Dunn.

Not true. Time will tell.

[Ghosts of 1990]

In the 1993 All-Star Game at Camden Yards, Montreal Expos outfielder Marquis Grissom forgot his uniform and had to borrow a Padres' jersey from Tony Gwynn, pants from Mark Grace, and he bought a Montreal Expos hat from a souvenir stand.

HAHAA!

[ChatterRed]

Time has spoken loudly and nobody is listening. It's called failure to make the playoffs since he's been here. We can continue to lose without him.

[Ghosts of 1990]

Time has spoken loudly and nobody is listening. It's called failure to make the playoffs since he's been here. We can continue to lose without him.

Yes but the organization wants to win. Dunn isn't the one who signed Jimmy Haynes and Eric Milton to contracts. Dunn didn't take the mound and throw meatballs in a bandbox for 82 games a year.

No, Dunn is an easy scapegoat because he's all that remains and has been the only longterm fixture (other than Griffey who has been hurt and gets his blame) in what has been a losing culture. He's not perfect, but to say we can 'do better' than him is a blanket statement. You're right we can lose without him, but if you want to win, Dunn is the type of player that you don't let go.

[thatcoolguy_22]

Time has spoken loudly and nobody is listening. It's called failure to make the playoffs since he's been here. We can continue to lose without him.

I prefer to blame the likes of Paul Wilson, Jimmy Haynes, Corey Lidle, Elmer Dessens, D'angelo Jiminez, Jose Acevedo, Jason LaRue, Griffey injuries, Ryan Dempster, Felipe Lopez, Danny Graves etc etc.


But yeah you are probably right to look at the .900 OPS, 40+ HR year in and year out, and averaging 100+RBI a year over the last 4 seasons as the chief reason for this team's failure.

[bgwilly31]

I agree with the people that say DUNN isnt very popular among GM's around the league.

He doesnt have that much spirit around the clubhouse. Why do you think him and griffey are such good friends. Their two of a kind. A couple going through the motions screw offs basically.

torontos GM didnt just pull his opinions out of the air.

[thatcoolguy_22]

Yes but the organization wants to win. Dunn isn't the one who signed Jimmy Haynes and Eric Milton to contracts. Dunn didn't take the mound and throw meatballs in a bandbox for 82 games a year.

No, Dunn is an easy scapegoat because he's all that remains and has been the only longterm fixture (other than Griffey who has been hurt and gets his blame) in what has been a losing culture. He's not perfect, but to say we can 'do better' than him is a blanket statement. You're right we can lose without him, but if you want to win, Dunn is the type of player that you don't let go.

well said

[improbus]

I'm not saying that Dunn is a bad player. He is very good. It is just that he lacks any real experience in meaningful games. You are right also that it is not necessarily his fault that the Reds have stunk, but that doesn't change the fact that he has not played in meaningful games. Reggie was almost always on good teams.

One other small thing, Dunn's career stats decline towards the end of the season:
July: .948 OPS (and a career .280 hitter!!)
August: .854 OPS (and a career .229 hitter)
Sept./Oct.: .778 OPS (and a career .222 hitter w/ dramatically lower HR'sand RBI's)
Maybe teams feel that he wears down at the end of the season...

And, if Rosenthal is right, the fact that no other teams are even thinking about Dunn DOES say something about him.

[Brutus]

How many people so far the past month or so there's been little or no interest in Dunn and yet people keep saying it's because "of what the Reds are asking for him."

No one, not a single report, has said it has anything to do with what the Reds are asking. Perhaps people will start to realize there simply isn't a market for Dunn. Why do people refuse to believe that?

There's a place for Adam Dunn in many lineups given his OBP, ability to draw walks and hit a ton of homers. But apparently, there's not much room for him this year from other GM's.

[44Magnum]

Dunn will manage to bring the down enthusiasm of any team he joins.

The best the Reds can hope for out of Dunn is 2 draft picks.

The sooner he and Jr. are gone...the better!

[Ghosts of 1990]

I agree with the people that say DUNN isnt very popular among GM's around the league.

He doesnt have that much spirit around the clubhouse. Why do you think him and griffey are such good friends. Their two of a kind. A couple going through the motions screw offs basically.

torontos GM didnt just pull his opinions out of the air.


Believe me I can see where you're coming from, but I've heard from several sources inside the Reds clubhouse that have been in there that Dunn (and Griffey more to my surprise) are two of the most popular players in that clubhouse. In fact, it IS Dunn's clubhouse.

[NeilHamburger]

The thing is, doesn't this mean that teams won't be willing to give dunn 15-20 million a year in free agency? I mean if they aren't willing to give up much for him in a trade I can't imagine that there will be a stampede to sign him this offseason (and I certaintly don't think teams will be willing to give him a huge multi-year deal). I'm begining to think let Dunn test free agency, and be here waiting with a 3 year 30 million dollar deal. It might be the best offer he gets.

[Newman4]

I could see Boston being a potential partner if Ortiz doesn't come back healthy down the stretch. Also, I could see the Yankees being a player since they're likely to get tired of running Wilson Betemit and guys like Brett Gardner out there.

[REDSEER]

Sure, teams aren't willing to give away the talent that we asking for in return for Dunn. Why should we ask for anything less? If Dunn walks, we, in all likelyhood, recieve a compensatory first round pick and maybe more (for comparison, our last 1st rd. compensation was Todd Frazier).

But to say that teams won't be willing to give Dunn lots of money is not true. Look at the free agent contracts that were given out just last season:

Outfielders:
Type A
Milton Bradley (coming off of major knee surgery) 1 yr/$8 mil
Torii Hunter: 5 yr/$90 mil
Aaron Rowand: 5 yr/$60 mil

Type B/ Others
Mike Cameron: 1 yr/$7 mil
Jose Guillen: 3 yr/$36 mil
Andruw Jones: 2 yr/$36.2 mil

Take the Andruw Jones contract for example. A guy coming off of a .222/.311/.413 year with 26 HR and 94 RBI got that kind of contract?

You can't tell me Dunn won't command a large free agent contract.

[mrherd05]

well said


I agree as well

[757690]

The thing is, doesn't this mean that teams won't be willing to give dunn 15-20 million a year in free agency? I mean if they aren't willing to give up much for him in a trade I can't imagine that there will be a stampede to sign him this offseason (and I certaintly don't think teams will be willing to give him a huge multi-year deal). I'm begining to think let Dunn test free agency, and be here waiting with a 3 year 30 million dollar deal. It might be the best offer he gets.

It only takes one dumb, desperate owner to screw everything up and give Dunn a huge contract. Happens every year, with nearly every free agent. You are right, logic would dictate that Dunn should get around that offer you mentioned, but logic has never played a part in free agent signings.

And while I do not advocate re-signing Dunn it is not because I think he has the wrong attitude. He has a great attitude and is a great clubhouse presence from what I seen and heard.

I personally think it is Dunn's inconsistency that is scaring off other teams. Most teams see him a rental and they just don't know which Dunn they will get for the few months they have him. I don't blame them.

[dsmith421]

He doesnt have that much spirit around the clubhouse. Why do you think him and griffey are such good friends. Their two of a kind. A couple going through the motions screw offs basically.

Please cite your sources inside the clubhouse for this information.

[bgwilly31]

Believe me I can see where you're coming from, but I've heard from several sources inside the Reds clubhouse that have been in there that Dunn (and Griffey more to my surprise) are two of the most popular players in that clubhouse. In fact, it IS Dunn's clubhouse.

Thats exactly my point.


Please cite your sources inside the clubhouse for this information.

why dont you ask him to cite his sources.

I dont need sources. I can watch pre-game activities. I can watch his actions in the dug-out. I can listen to interviews. You can just tell DUNN isnt exactly what you would call LEADER material. Neither is griffey. Actually they are from it. Now they arent asked or labeled the CAPTAINS of this team either.


BUT its just how it is.

Griffey is future HOF idol to most of the players. Guys are going to look at what he does and say i want to be him. Does anybody dissagree with this?

DUNN. hes the vet of the team. I dont know for sure but i do know hes been on the team longer than most if not all. Guys are going to look up to him to see what they can get by with. Its just how things go.

Just like when you start a new job. Whats the first thing new employees do. They watch other people to get a feel for how the enviroment is around them. What they can get away with and how much WORK is expected from them before they can get in trouble or called into the bosses office. Its no different for new players on a MLB team.

[Jim]

It only takes one dumb, desperate owner to screw everything up and give Dunn a huge contract. Happens every year, with nearly every free agent. You are right, logic would dictate that Dunn should get around that offer you mentioned, but logic has never played a part in free agent signings.

I agree that Dunn will most likely not see any takers before the trade deadline and will "test" FA this off-season. I can only pray that the Reds are not one of those "dumb, desperate owners". Having him on the team for a few more years is a positive, but spending crazy money for him at the expense of not having the $$$ for other players is crazy.

[Strider]

The best the Reds can hope for out of Dunn is 2 draft picks.



If Dunn walks, we, in all likelyhood, recieve a compensatory first round pick and maybe more (for comparison, our last 1st rd. compensation was Todd Frazier).



Help me understand the thought that letting Dunn walks, automatically gets the Reds draft picks.

Don't we have to offer Dunn arbitration to get those picks and then he must still sign with another team to get us the picks?

With one of the two picks coming from the signing team...does this limit his signing options in any way?

What is the risk that Dunn accepts our arbitration offer and then gets a budget busting arbitration award...I dunno...let's say $17-20M/year?

I guess what I'm saying is that offering Dunn arbitration to get the draft picks depends on how much and at what price they would have to pay to have Dunn return versus the liklihood that he would price himself reasonably and actually sign with another team.

You gotta be darn sure of the answers to those questions before you offer Dunn arbitration. The only sure way to remove Dunn from the payroll, assuming that the Reds actually wish to do so, is to allow his contract to expire.

Getting draft picks as Dunn exits the Reds is no sure thing.

For that matter, Dunn actually leaving the Reds is no sure thing.

We will get a better picture of the future as GM Walt begins to play musical chairs at GAB.

[Fullboat]

I agree with the people that say DUNN isnt very popular among GM's around the league.

He doesnt have that much spirit around the clubhouse. Why do you think him and griffey are such good friends. Their two of a kind. A couple going through the motions screw offs basically.

torontos GM didnt just pull his opinions out of the air.

You might be on to something bgwilly31.Remember when Votto had his 3 homer game and Dunn was basically joking around with him and the ESPN guys during his
interview.Votto is a rookie and doesn't have the money Jr & Dunn have yet, he has
to take his game seriously as all rooks do.This team is young and impressionable you
just can't have laid back guys like Dunn & Jr.Votto seemed miffed after the interview even apologized to the ESPN crew.

[bgwilly31]

You might be on to something bgwilly31.Remember when Votto had his 3 homer game and Dunn was basically joking around with him and the ESPN guys during his
interview.Votto is a rookie and doesn't have the money Jr & Dunn have yet, he has
to take his game seriously as all rooks do.This team is young and impressionable you
just can't have laid back guys like Dunn & Jr.Votto seemed miffed after the interview even apologized to the ESPN crew.


exactly my point. Of course it was just messing with rooks. Goofing around, But too much of that can lead to everybody screwing off and not caring. Its a tricky path.

[Nasty_Boy]

exactly my point. Of course it was just messing with rooks. Goofing around, But too much of that can lead to everybody screwing off and not caring. Its a tricky path.

That's just dumb!

[757690]

You might be on to something bgwilly31.Remember when Votto had his 3 homer game and Dunn was basically joking around with him and the ESPN guys during his
interview.Votto is a rookie and doesn't have the money Jr & Dunn have yet, he has
to take his game seriously as all rooks do.This team is young and impressionable you
just can't have laid back guys like Dunn & Jr.Votto seemed miffed after the interview even apologized to the ESPN crew.

That interview was one of the reason's why I think Dunn is as positive in the clubhouse. When Votto apologized, the ESPN guys laughed and made fun of Votto for being so uptight, and said that what Dunn did was standard hazing for a rookie.
If you have ever been in team locker room, at any level, you know that everyone is relaxed and having fun at others expense. It has been done for over 100 years. Jose Rijo was one of the biggest pranksters of them all, and was always very relaxed and had a lot of fun. Was he a problem in the clubhouse?

[bgwilly31]

That interview was one of the reason's why I think Dunn is as positive in the clubhouse. When Votto apologized, the ESPN guys laughed and made fun of Votto for being so uptight, and said that what Dunn did was standard hazing for a rookie.
If you have ever been in team locker room, at any level, you know that everyone is relaxed and having fun at others expense. It has been done for over 100 years. Jose Rijo was one of the biggest pranksters of them all, and was always very relaxed and had a lot of fun. Was he a problem in the clubhouse?

Theres a time for jokes and theres a time to get serious and have enthusiasm about the game. The toront GM called DUNN very un-enthusiastic about the game.

Im going to guess he and griffey does more screwing around then they do making themselves or this team better.

[thatcoolguy_22]

Theres a time for jokes and theres a time to get serious and have enthusiasm about the game. The toront GM called DUNN very un-enthusiastic about the game.

Im going to guess he and griffey does more screwing around then they do making themselves or this team better.

I'm going to guess you made a random comment and are now reaching for straws to defend your position...

[Fullboat]

That interview was one of the reason's why I think Dunn is as positive in the clubhouse. When Votto apologized, the ESPN guys laughed and made fun of Votto for being so uptight, and said that what Dunn did was standard hazing for a rookie.
If you have ever been in team locker room, at any level, you know that everyone is relaxed and having fun at others expense. It has been done for over 100 years. Jose Rijo was one of the biggest pranksters of them all, and was always very relaxed and had a lot of fun. Was he a problem in the clubhouse?

Sure I get that and it probably was a harmless stunt.They are times when that is necessary like if Votto had 3 errors for example to lighten the mood.I just get this
feeling when the team should be focused and listening to coaches,Dunn and Jr are not
the ones who are saying "Hey guys pay attention here"