Reds vs Giants 8/30/08

[Red in Chicago]

Opening game thread early with Ramirez's major league debut and otherwise lack of interest in the threads lately

REDS
Chris Dickerson LF
Jeff Keppinger SS
Brandon Phillips 2B
Joey Votto 1B
Edwin Encarnacion 3B
Jay Bruce RF
Corey Patterson CF
Ryan Hanigan C
RHP Ramon Ramirez (Major League debut)

GIANTS
Randy Winn RF
Fred Lewis LF
Pablo Sandoval 1B
Bengie Molina C
Aaron Rowland CF
Rich Aurilia 3B
Emmanuel Burriss SS
Eugenio Veliz 2B
RHP Kevin Correia (3-7, 5.11)

[OnBaseMachine]

I'm pretty excited to see Ramirez pitch. Rick Sweet says he's got one of the better changeups you will see.

[Spring~Fields]

I'm pretty excited to see Ramirez pitch. Rick Sweet says he's got one of the better changeups you will see.

I hope he does well, the loyal Reds fans of Redszone deserve some positives from the team.

[OnBaseMachine]

Randy Winn belts a lead off solo homerun after striking out looking on the previous pitch.

[OnBaseMachine]

After the homer Ramirez gets two ground outs and a strikeout. He's got a very nice changeup, though he hung one to Winn who hammered it. The pitch before the homer looked like strike three. His fastball was around 90-92.

[Red in Chicago]

dickerson with a leadoff triple:beerme:

[OnBaseMachine]

Chris Dickerson leads off with a triple...if only he had gotten that last night.

[Red in Chicago]

kepp sac fly to get in dickerson...
phillips singles...
hit and run with votto, who singles...runners on first and third, one out, ee up

[Red in Chicago]

ee sac fly to get in phillips...reds lead 2 - 1, with two outs

[OnBaseMachine]

Bruce walks.

[Red in Chicago]

bruce walks...runners on first and second...corey up

[Red in Chicago]

corey with an rbi single...runners on 1st and 2nd, two outs...

[OnBaseMachine]

RBI single for Patterson, 3-1 Reds.

[OnBaseMachine]

Hanigan doubles, Bruce and Patterson score! 5-1 Reds.

[Red in Chicago]

hanigan with a two run double...reds lead 5 - 1...still two outs...

[OnBaseMachine]

Ramirez gets a groundout and strikeout to begin the second but then walks an awful hitter and serves up a two run homer. 5-3. Two out walks to crappy hitters are killer. This is going to be a slugfest.

[Tony Cloninger]

HR to a LH Norris Hopper.

Why nibble with 2 outs to a hacker before that?

[WVRedsFan]

HR to a LH Norris Hopper.

Why nibble with 2 outs to a hacker before that?

First major league game?

[OnBaseMachine]

Jeff Keppinger gives up another single. That should have been the third out.

[OnBaseMachine]

EdE makes it 6-3 with his 24th homerun.

[lollipopcurve]

One of the better swings from Edwin this year. Line drive crushed to CF.

[OnBaseMachine]

Ramirez throws a 1-2-3 5th inning.

[lollipopcurve]

10 groundouts, 1 flyout for Ramirez. 74 pitches through 5.

He is using 2 pitches and 2 pitches only. Fastball-changeup.

[OnBaseMachine]

10 groundouts, 1 flyout for Ramirez. 74 pitches through 5.

He is using 2 pitches and 2 pitches only. Fastball-changeup.

Yep. It's been a decent start so far but I think Ramirez's future is in the bullpen where he can run it up there at 94/95 and use that changeup. I think he could be a very good middle reliever with that two pitch combo.

[OnBaseMachine]

Phillips caught stealing. Running into more outs.

[CTA513]

I didn't get to see most of the game, can anyone give me a report about how Ramirez has pitched so far?

[nate]

Whoa!

Chris is going to shave his 'stache for charity!

Is this the most exciting Reds news of August?

[OnBaseMachine]

I didn't get to see most of the game, can anyone give me a report about how Ramirez has pitched so far?

He's looked pretty good. His fastball is around 90-92 and his changeup is very good. He allowed a lead off homerun to Winn after getting squeezed on the previous pitch. In the second inning he retired the first two hitters easily but then walked Burriss and allowed a homerun to Velez. Since then he's been very impressive. I believe he's retired eight straight now.

6 IP, 5 H, 3 R, 1 BB, 4 K, 10 GO/4 FO, 80 pitches.

[OnBaseMachine]

Bruce leads off the bottom of the 6th with a line drive single to LF.

[OnBaseMachine]

Baserunning blunder by Bruce. Sheesh.

[nate]

The Reds take the "fun" out of "fundamentals."

Bruce picked off 2nd.

[VR]

Between physical and mental errors, and baserunning incompetence....the 'base differential' for unforced errors has to be in the 100's for the Reds, doesn't it?

[OnBaseMachine]

Aurilia K's on a nasty changeup to begin the 7th inning.

[OnBaseMachine]

And now Ramirez walks Burriss for the second time tonight. Geez. Throw strikes to this guy, he's awful.

[nate]

And now Ramirez walks Burriss for the second time tonight. Geez. Throw strikes to this guy, he's awful.

True. Think of all the passes he's dropped in his career.

;)

[OnBaseMachine]

Velez K's for the second out.

[Tony Cloninger]

He pitches to him like his Bonds.....very strange to just lose your stuff to him and then recover like that. Don't know what he is afraid of him with this guy.

He is pitching good besides that.

Welsh just called this the worst baserunning reds team he has ever seen.

[OnBaseMachine]

Ishikawa grounds out to Votto to end the inning.

Ramirez: 7 IP, 5 H, 3 R, 2 BB, 6 K, 11 GO/4 FO

He's thrown 98 pitches so his night should be over. A very nice major league debut for Ramon Ramirez. Hopefully the bullpen can hold it and get him his first major league win.

[HokieRed]

Great to see it. I've liked Ramirez for some time. With his GO/FO ratio he's got a real chance to help this team, more likely in the bullpen probably than as a starter, but who knows?

[VR]

Great outing for Ramirez. Nice to have another solid youngish arm in the fold.

[BCubb2003]

The Reds take the "fun" out of "fundamentals."

Bruce picked off 2nd.


The Reds take the "mental" out of "fundamentals."

[OnBaseMachine]

George Grande is talking about acquiring Matt Holliday during the offseason and asks would you trade Johnny Cueto for him. What the heck are you smoking George? Hell no I wouldn't trade Cueto for Holliday.

[nate]

George Grande is talking about acquiring Matt Holliday during the offseason and asks would you trade Johnny Cueto for him. What the heck are you smoking George? Hell no I wouldn't trade Cueto for Holliday.

It's a symptom of "pre-moustache deprivation."

[OnBaseMachine]

Bill Bray takes over in the 8th.

Ramirez's final line: 7 IP, 5 H, 3 R, 2 BB, 6 K, 11 GO/4 FO, 98 pitches.

[OnBaseMachine]

Randy Winn takes an ugly swing and still manages a solo HR.

[WVRedsFan]

Bill Bray takes over in the 8th.

Ramirez's final line: 7 IP, 5 H, 3 R, 2 BB, 6 K, 11 GO/4 FO, 98 pitches.

Bray just mystifies me. Allows a Randy Winn HR immediately.

[Red in Chicago]

why was george so excited by that second winn home run?

[OnBaseMachine]

Bray has been awful lately. He's got very good stuff his lack of command lately is catching up to him.

[WVRedsFan]

Now he walks the second batter and it's on with the third batter getting a hit. Only difference this time is Bray will pay for his sins if these runs score. He'll get credit for them. That flashy ERA is deceiving.

[VR]

Bray has been awful lately. He's got very good stuff his lack of command lately is catching up to him.

That's his first run since August 5th.

[Red in Chicago]

Bray has been awful lately. He's got very good stuff his lack of command lately is catching up to him.

yeah, now we've got lincoln coming in, who hasn't been fooling anyone lately...

[Kc61]

Bray has been awful lately. He's got very good stuff his lack of command lately is catching up to him.

It's just a consistency thing with Bray. On any given night, he can be brilliant or awful. Wonder if Jocketty will keep him around. At this stage, he isn't ready to be the number one lefty out of the bullpen.

[OnBaseMachine]

That's his first run since August 5th.

Yeah but he's allowed quite a few hits lately. I like his arm a lot but his lack of command right now is killing him.

[OnBaseMachine]

Lincoln gets a double play. A run scores to make it 6-5.

[CTA513]

Welcome to the Reds Ramirez.

[Tony Cloninger]

98 pitches was not a lot of pitches....but i have no problem with him coming out. It was a good first start.

OBM....will you be happy when all starters throw less than 100 pitches a game?

[Kc61]

Tie game.

Lincoln gives up a home run.

Welcome to the Reds, Ramon Ramirez.

[OnBaseMachine]

Lincoln allows a homer to Rowand. Tie game. No decision for Ramirez now. Mike Lincoln needs to be gone after this season.

[OnBaseMachine]

98 pitches was not a lot of pitches....but i have no problem with him coming out. It was a good first start.

OBM....will you be happy when all starters throw less than 100 pitches a game?

Huh?

[WVRedsFan]

Bray 0 IP 2H 2R 2ER 1BB 0K

[Kc61]

Lincoln allows a homer to Rowand. Tie game. No decision for Ramirez now. Mike Lincoln needs to be gone after this season.


You're right, but it's too bad. Lincoln pitched so well most of the season. Then he suddenly hit a wall and it was over.

[OnBaseMachine]

Two more hits off Lincoln.

[WVRedsFan]

No bullpen tonight. Lincoln has become fodder and Bray was Bray.

[OnBaseMachine]

It's a shame the bullpen blew this for Ramirez. He better get used to it though. This team is where good pitching performances go to waste.

[Red in Chicago]

You're right, but it's too bad. Lincoln pitched so well most of the season. Then he suddenly hit a wall and it was over.

his month of august has been a complete disaster.

[Red in Chicago]

i'm so not in the mood to watch two teams fight it out in extra innings for their 60th win of the season...

[Chip R]

i'm so not in the mood to watch two teams fight it out in extra innings for their 60th win of the season...


Consider it your penance. ;)

[OnBaseMachine]

Bruce singles off the lefty. 2-for-3 with a walk tonight for Jay.

[OnBaseMachine]

Patterson RBI triple. 7-6 Reds.

[nate]

Holy smokes! Patterson with the RBI triple!

[VR]

Bruce = slow ;)

[Red in Chicago]

Bruce = slow ;)

i was thinking the same thing after reading that silly article:p:

[BCubb2003]

Patterson is en fuego.

[Falls City Beer]

Bray 0 IP 2H 2R 2ER 1BB 0K

It's time to package up that misleading ERA in a trade.

[Red in Chicago]

i didn't even realize they still made fruit of the loom underwear until all these stupid commercials kept popping up during reds games...

and now back to your regular programming

[toledodan]

Patterson is en fuego.


what scares me is dusty will think that and he will get the start the rest of the year.:thumbdown

[OnBaseMachine]

Hanigan walks on four pitches.

[mbgrayson]

Holy smokes! Patterson with the RBI triple!

And C. Patterson is now north of the Mendoza line for the first time in a while: .201 batting average.

[Falls City Beer]

what scares me is dusty will think that and he will get the start the rest of the year.:thumbdown

Yeah, sure would suck to have that kind of defense in meaningless games, when you have young pitchers who don't need to be getting 4-5 outs an inning.

[BCubb2003]

what scares me is dusty will think that and he will get the start the rest of the year.:thumbdown


The rest of the year is OK, it's the next one to worry about.

[Red in Chicago]

nm

[OnBaseMachine]

Valentin hits a groundball to 1B. Sandoval touches first base and throws to second to get Hanigan. Patterson didn't run home which ended up costing the Reds a run.

[Falls City Beer]

The rest of the year is OK, it's the next one to worry about.

The odds of Jocketty re-signing Patterson are not even odds at all.

[OnBaseMachine]

Yeah, sure would suck to have that kind of defense in meaningless games, when you have young pitchers who don't need to be getting 4-5 outs an inning.

Agreed. I prefer Patterson in CF and Dickerson in LF to Jolbert Cabrera playing LF.

[toledodan]

Yeah, sure would suck to have that kind of defense in meaningless games, when you have young pitchers who don't need to be getting 4-5 outs an inning.



or have patterson make yet another bone headed play on the base paths.

[Chip R]

Yeah, sure would suck to have that kind of defense in meaningless games, when you have young pitchers who don't need to be getting 4-5 outs an inning.


No one's suggesting they put Valentin in CF. Put Dickerson in CF and whoever in LF.Patterson doesn't need to be getting ABs at the expense of someone else.

[Falls City Beer]

or have patterson make yet another bone headed play on the base paths.

He's not a bad baserunner generally. He could have been halted by the 3rd base coach for all we know.

[OnBaseMachine]

Chris is giving Patterson heck for not running hard there.

[Falls City Beer]

No one's suggesting they put Valentin in CF. Put Dickerson in CF and whoever in LF.Patterson doesn't need to be getting ABs at the expense of someone else.

Patterson's preventing whom exactly? His defense is far more valuable than some marginal AAA chaff getting ABs.

[VR]

Chris is giving Patterson heck for not running hard there.

yet another unforced error by the Reds

[toledodan]

He's not a bad baserunner generally. He could have been halted by the 3rd base coach for all we know.


the replay showed he stopped running about 10 feet from home. if he doesn't stop he more than likely scores in time.

[BCubb2003]

Lincoln in line for the win.

[Chip R]

Patterson's preventing whom exactly? His defense is far more valuable than some marginal AAA chaff getting ABs.


Rosales. People think Votto should play LF. Stick him in there if need be. Same for EE. If Hariston comes back, put him in there. Granted, he gives you superior defense but could Dickerson and the LF du jour do any worse?

[OnBaseMachine]

Cordero throws a 1-2-3 9th. Reds win 7-6. It sucks Bray and Lincoln blew the win for Ramirez.

[Falls City Beer]

Rosales. People think Votto should play LF. Stick him in there if need be. Same for EE. If Hariston comes back, put him in there. Granted, he gives you superior defense but could Dickerson and the LF du jour do any worse?

I say: if you can have an elite defensive outfield, take advantage of it. There will be time for tweeners like Rosales.

[HokieRed]

Is there no official scorer's discretion anymore on wins? The only guy who deserves to win is Ramirez; in a case like this, the scorer ought to be able to give him the win. Bray's lack of performance is no surprise to some of us. That 1.55 WHIP is just too high for a short reliever. I predict he'll be wearing another uniform next year. I don't think he'll fool Jocketty.

[Red in Chicago]

I say: if you can have an elite defensive outfield, take advantage of it. There will be time for tweeners like Rosales.

he's made a few nice plays this year, but he's also made a few blunders out there (3 errors in less than 200 chances)...add in the pitiful bat (.200 ba and .230 obp) and poor baserunning 9 caught stealing out of 22 attempts) and i say he doesn't deserve any more playing time in a reds uniform.

[Chip R]

I say: if you can have an elite defensive outfield, take advantage of it. There will be time for tweeners like Rosales.


What better time than now? You'd rather do it in ST or the beginning of the season?

[Chip R]

Is there no official scorer's discretion anymore on wins? The only guy who deserves to win is Ramirez; in a case like this, the scorer ought to be able to give him the win. Bray's lack of performance is no surprise to some of us. That 1.55 WHIP is just too high for a short reliever. I predict he'll be wearing another uniform next year. I don't think he'll fool Jocketty.


Lincoln was the pitcher of record when the Reds went ahead. The only time an official scorer has discretion is if the starter doesn't go 5 and the team doesn't give up the lead.

[HokieRed]

Chip, Thanks for the clarification on the discretion matter. I didn't think it applied in a case like this but I wasn't aware of the precise kind of case in which it does. Seems to me something that would be worth considering changing. Tonight's a particularly egregious example of a completely unmerited win going to a reliever while a very deserving starter gets penalized.

[Falls City Beer]

What better time than now? You'd rather do it in ST or the beginning of the season?

What matters is that the young pitchers don't struggle through unnecessarily long innings. That, and basically nothing else at this point.

[Falls City Beer]

he's made a few nice plays this year, but he's also made a few blunders out there (3 errors in less than 200 chances)...add in the pitiful bat (.200 ba and .230 obp) and poor baserunning 9 caught stealing out of 22 attempts) and i say he doesn't deserve any more playing time in a reds uniform.

Both metrics and the eye agree that Patterson is an elite CF.

[Chip R]

What matters is that the young pitchers don't struggle through unnecessarily long innings. That, and basically nothing else at this point.


How does putting Dickerson in center and the soup of the day in LF turn our OF defense into a pile of crap? We had 4 months of Dunn and Jr in the corners. Whomever we put out there is better than Dunn/Jr./Bruce/Patterson/Freel/Hariston/Hopper. If we're so worried about defense, call up Janish and put him at SS and put a glove at 3rd.

[Falls City Beer]

How does putting Dickerson in center and the soup of the day in LF turn our OF defense into a pile of crap? We had 4 months of Dunn and Jr in the corners. Whomever we put out there is better than Dunn/Jr./Bruce/Patterson/Freel/Hariston/Hopper. If we're so worried about defense, call up Janish and put him at SS and put a glove at 3rd.

Whatever. Give it to Rosales. But understand that in doing so you're making the defense worse. And the offense little better.

[WVRedsFan]

Chip, Thanks for the clarification on the discretion matter. I didn't think it applied in a case like this but I wasn't aware of the precise kind of case in which it does. Seems to me something that would be worth considering changing. Tonight's a particularly egregious example of a completely unmerited win going to a reliever while a very deserving starter gets penalized.
It's been like that as long as modern baseball has existed. I doubt they'll ever change it. And there is no way they could give it to anyone else anyway. The Giants tied it and that took Rameriz out of the decision.

[Chip R]

Whatever. Give it to Rosales. But understand that in doing so you're making the defense worse. And the offense little better.


Again, if you're so worried about defense, keeping Patterson in there isn't going to free your mind of worries. Patterson was in CF last Sunday when the Reds had 5 errors in a game. Just keeping him in CF isn't some magic bullet that's going to make the defense better. Three-fourths of the IF isn't that great and Bako isn't good either. Hanigan's a rookie. If you're so worried about saving the young pitchers, either put them on the shelf or put them on a strict pitch count.

[PuffyPig]

Lincoln was the pitcher of record when the Reds went ahead. The only time an official scorer has discretion is if the starter doesn't go 5 and the team doesn't give up the lead.

That's not entirely correct.

They can also take away a win from the pitcher of record when they determine he has pitched for a short period and not effectively. For example, if a reliever comes into the game with 2 outs in the 8th, and gives up 4 runs and then retires the last batter, the official scorer will likely not give him the win if he team then goes ahead.

Lincoln gave up 1 run over 1 inning which isn't close to bad enough to deprive him of the win.

And the official score could only give the win to a pitcher after Lincoln. Ramirez' ship had already sailed.

[Falls City Beer]

If you're so worried about saving the young pitchers, either put them on the shelf or put them on a strict pitch count.

Pitch counts aren't the issue. Long innings are.

[Chip R]

Pitch counts aren't the issue. Long innings are.


Long innings lead to high pitch counts do they not?

[redsmetz]

That's not entirely correct.

They can also take away a win from the pitcher of record when they determine he has pitched for a short period and not effectively. For example, if a reliever comes into the game with 2 outs in the 8th, and gives up 4 runs and then retires the last batter, the official scorer will likely not give him the win if he team then goes ahead.

Lincoln gave up 1 run over 1 inning which isn't close to bad enough to deprive him of the win.

And the official score could only give the win to a pitcher after Lincoln. Ramirez' ship had already sailed.

And like any reliever who blows a save, to a man, they would rather the starter who was effective be given their win. Same thing with inherited runners. Yes, their the previous pitcher's responsibility, but he didn't let them in. Well, we know how that goes.

Blown saves are part of the game, so is that undeserved W - but it's a W nonetheless; and we'll take it and let the bum (for this night) have it.

[PuffyPig]

Again, if you're so worried about defense, keeping Patterson in there isn't going to free your mind of worries. Patterson was in CF last Sunday when the Reds had 5 errors in a game.

That makes little sense.

You're suggesting that keeping Patterson in for defense doesn't matter when in one game, other Reds commited 5 errors.

That's like saying that the Reds may as well bench thier best hitter when the team is slumping offensively, as one hitter won't mkae much difference.

Patterson helps the defense. That may be all he does, but it's better than nothing.

[Matt700wlw]

How about CP's big game?

Man, we'll never get him out the lineup now!