Dunn says Reds didn't care

[Mutaman]

According to Pete Gammons on ESPN today, Dunn told him that the biggest difference in going to the Diamondbacks was that the players really care about winning. That's all they talk about. He said that wasn't the case with the Reds where winning wasn't that big a deal with the players.

[carmack42]

I don't understand how he could say this. He was one of the players. And I always perceived him as the heart of the team. If it bugged him, I'd think he'd have enough influence on the rest of the clubhouse to change it around.

You sure he didn't say that the front office didn't care about winning? 'Cause I could believe that.

[redsfanmia]

I am just glad he is gone, good player but he really needed to go for his sake and the sake of the team. I also find it interesting that no one on the big boy board has posted anything about this or about Bronson's comments.

[Mutaman]

You sure he didn't say that the front office didn't care about winning? 'Cause I could believe that.

According to Gammons, Dunn said the players didn't care.

[757690]

First, Dunn didn't say that Reds players didn't care, just that they didn't care as much as the Diamondback players, who according to Dunn, "That's all they talked about."
I think every major league player wants to win, but clearly some more that others. Also, the Diamondbacks are a very young team that won the division last year. That breeds talk of winning. I wonder if the Diamondbacks only talking about winningat the beginning of last year or the year before when they had the same players.

I am firm believer that winning is the best ingredient in team chemistry. Winning results in chemistry, not the other way around. The Reds have not had a winning team in close to ten years. It is hard to get excited about winning with that record.

[Jack Burton]

LOL, what an overgrown child. They didn't care about winning? Shut up.

[nemesis]

I will say this, he has done WELL since the trade to Arizona. They definatly made a solid move in aquiring him.

[redsfanmia]

I will say this, he has done WELL since the trade to Arizona. They definatly made a solid move in aquiring him.

For now.

[Az. Reds Fan]

Dunn cared enough about winning to get it done for the Dbacks today...RBI double in the 9th to win it

[HalMorrisRules]

According to Pete Gammons on ESPN today, Dunn told him that the biggest difference in going to the Diamondbacks was that the players really care about winning. That's all they talk about. He said that wasn't the case with the Reds where winning wasn't that big a deal with the players.

Peter's insider column has a quote from Adam that is not anywhere as "harsh" as what you are saying he said, in fact making no direct statements about the team let alone his teammates. Are you sure you arent embellishing it somewhat?

[killuminati35]

For the sake of argument, let's say that Dunn isn't being misquoted. Is it really that big of suprise to anyone that the Reds players might not care about winning? I mean, the results speak for themselves, don't they? All you have to do is look through any random game thread and you will see comment after comment about the team looking "flat".

[Mutaman]

Peter's insider column has a quote from Adam that is not anywhere as "harsh" as what you are saying he said, in fact making no direct statements about the team let alone his teammates. Are you sure you arent embellishing it somewhat?

I can't say until I see the quote. What is it?

[HalMorrisRules]

I can't say until I see the quote. What is it?

Dunn has taken to the pennant race atmosphere. "Those years in Cincinnati were great to me, but I grew up playing football and thinking team first, and getting into this situation is what I now know I want and need. I know that players become free agents and say it isn't only about the money, but now that I've been in this environment I know my priority as a free agent will be to sign with a team that has a chance to win. Money can't buy happiness when you're losing."

That is the only direct quote from Dunn in the entire article.

Gammons Insider Blog (http://insider.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index?name=gammons_peter)

[Ghosts of 1990]

I was a dunn fan, and winning didn't seem that important to him if we're going on what was communicated verbaly and honestly non verbally

[Mutaman]

Ok, lets go to the facts: Gammons was on Michael Kay's show this afternoon on ESPN 1050. Toward the end of the interview Gammons said that he had a long talk with Adam Dunn last week and Dunn said that he "played 5 dead years in Cincinnati where nobody cared whether they won or not.... now I'm on a team where all they do is talk about winning...."


Heres the interview (the Dunn comment is near the end):

http://stations.espn.go.com/stations/1050espnradio/show?showId=mkay1

[ChatterRed]

Uh.......it's a young team that needed leadership and direction from it's veterans. Dunn was a veteran who did not provide winning leadership.

I blame Dunn.

You want guys around that want to win? Lead by example. His body language alone spoke of someone who didn't care.

He's full of dung.

[757690]

Ok, lets go to the facts: Gammons was on Michael Kay's show this afternoon on ESPN 1050. Toward the end of the interview Gammons said that he had a long talk with Adam Dunn last week and Dunn said that he "played 5 dead years in Cincinnati where nobody cared whether they won or not.... now I'm on a team where all they do is talk about winning...."


Heres the interview (the Dunn comment is near the end):

http://stations.espn.go.com/stations/1050espnradio/show?showId=mkay1

This is a very vague quote. Dunn could be talking about the fans, the players or the organization or any and all combinations of these.
Also Dunn played 7 1/2 years in Cincinnati, not 5. He did play 5 years under the Linder ownership and to say that during that era, that "nobody cared whether they won or not," is being polite.
After reading tha quote, I am not sure what Dunn meant or who he was referring to.

[Orodle]

Well If I played on a team that kept running Corey Patterson out there I would agree that no one cared. There is nothing wrong with what Dunn said...its the truth and the Reds stink. Hes learning what it takes to win right now and apparently the veterans that were around when he was comming up did not get that. Cough cough Jr ....Jr got out of town and the Mariners had one of the best years any team has ever had.

[REDblooded]

so.... let me get this straight. after griffey was traded, wasn't Dunn quoted as saying that this was his team? So, if it was his team, wouldn't it's attitude reflect his leadership? If he was a winner, wouldn't it make his new teammates winners too?

On the flip side, he goes to a new team where he isn't the team veteran. It's not his team, the mentality is already in place. the team atmosphere is already set. now he can play for a winner.

[redsbuckeye]

The spin machines here could rival any major news network.

[Nasty_Boy]

The spin machines here could rival any major news network.

I was thinking the same thing. Everyone acts like they know what was going on everyday at GABP. As much information that we get now from the internet, we still don't know it all.

[HeatherC1212]

Uh.......it's a young team that needed leadership and direction from it's veterans. Dunn was a veteran who did not provide winning leadership.

I blame Dunn.

You want guys around that want to win? Lead by example. His body language alone spoke of someone who didn't care.

He's full of dung.

You said it better than I could and I completely agree that he could have and should have helped provide better leadership as a veteran of the team.

[ChatterRed]

so.... let me get this straight. after griffey was traded, wasn't Dunn quoted as saying that this was his team? So, if it was his team, wouldn't it's attitude reflect his leadership? If he was a winner, wouldn't it make his new teammates winners too?

On the flip side, he goes to a new team where he isn't the team veteran. It's not his team, the mentality is already in place. the team atmosphere is already set. now he can play for a winner.

Well said. He can't be lazy in his attitude anymore since he's now surrounded by winners.

In other words, he went with the general attitude flow of the team he was on. If nobody cared, neither did he. Now that they care, he has to act like he does too. :rolleyes:

[Ahhhorsepoo]

We have said on these very boards for years that he didnt play hard nor seem to care about winning.. and that he was a leader for this team.. if he didnt rub those young guys into that.. then you my friends are far more out of touch than even i thought..

[Nasty_Boy]

How do you know that he didn't care? How do you know he didn't play hard? The blaming Dunn for this junk is beyond stupid.

[Ahhhorsepoo]

Did you watch him the last 5 years? his first year he sure hustled alot more.. he didnt have the speed then either.. but he sure hustled and was at least measurably faster in his movement throughout the whole game..

and if you are going to blame it on him gaining weight.. how can someone who cares gain weight by fishing and not working out during the offseason.. if he cared he would do what he could to improve.. not continue to achieve status quo..

[CWRed]

How do you know that he didn't care? How do you know he didn't play hard? The blaming Dunn for this junk is beyond stupid.


So true. I've had it with this Dunn crap. He is on a well-coached team now and with guys who do know how to play. So he'll be so much better away from the Reds and Dusty.

[Ahhhorsepoo]

yeah good players around him surely make him a better fielder.. enough to go gold glove......

[bounty37h]

According to Pete Gammons on ESPN today, Dunn told him that the biggest difference in going to the Diamondbacks was that the players really care about winning. That's all they talk about. He said that wasn't the case with the Reds where winning wasn't that big a deal with the players.

Well, then that finalizes it for me, I am officially on the Dunn Haters wagon now, I was always on the fence, have respect for what he [I]can [I]do as a player. But, as the teams highest paid player, supposedly the best player on the team, I throw a lot of the responsibility of getting the other players on board with him. No, it shouldnt take that, as they should ALL be accountable as individuals and as a team, and have that drive on their own, but it is also human nature to follow those ahead of you, and Dunn was that guy, so yes, IMHO it falls greatly on his shoulders, and I have lost respect for him as a player with those comments. I didnt think he was the right fit on this team, but was pulling for him in AZ where his role is more secondary, as it should have been for us. I now dont care crap about him as a player.

[ChatterRed]

Well, then that finalizes it for me, I am officially on the Dunn Haters wagon now, I was always on the fence, have respect for what he can do as a player. But, as the teams highest paid player, supposedly the best player on the team, I throw a lot of the responsibility of getting the other players on board with him. No, it shouldnt take that, as they should ALL be accountable as individuals and as a team, and have that drive on their own, but it is also human nature to follow those ahead of you, and Dunn was that guy, so yes, IMHO it falls greatly on his shoulders, and I have lost respect for him as a player with those comments. I didnt think he was the right fit on this team, but was pulling for him in AZ where his role is more secondary, as it should have been for us. I now dont care crap about him as a player.


So are you saying you're done with Dunn? :D

[HeatherC1212]

Today's game had the Reds in a huge hole losing 5-0 before they even came to bat in the second inning :eek: but they kept battling back and somehow kept chipping away at that lead before they finally won the game 8-6. After reading this thread again, I find myself wondering if they would have done that with Dunn in the lineup. Those guys battled their way back into that game today enough that they got a win and prevented a Pirates sweep (which would have royally honked me off FWIW, LOL :laugh: ). Tell me again that this team doesn't want to win because after today, I sure don't see that from those guys. The season is lost and yet they just clawed their way back into a game that they could have easily given up for another loss.

JMO of course. :)

[Nasty_Boy]

Well, then that finalizes it for me, I am officially on the Dunn Haters wagon now, I was always on the fence, have respect for what he [I]can [I]do as a player. But, as the teams highest paid player, supposedly the best player on the team, I throw a lot of the responsibility of getting the other players on board with him. No, it shouldnt take that, as they should ALL be accountable as individuals and as a team, and have that drive on their own, but it is also human nature to follow those ahead of you, and Dunn was that guy, so yes, IMHO it falls greatly on his shoulders, and I have lost respect for him as a player with those comments. I didnt think he was the right fit on this team, but was pulling for him in AZ where his role is more secondary, as it should have been for us. I now dont care crap about him as a player.


Hilarious!

Then I blame Sean Casey for the losing from 2001-2005. He was the leader of this team. He was the "best" player and face of the Reds.

[Newman4]

Dunn is gone. Water under the bridge. Move on.

[bounty37h]

Hilarious!

Then I blame Sean Casey for the losing from 2001-2005. He was the leader of this team. He was the "best" player and face of the Reds.

Was he making nearly the entire team budget by himself? You really think he was supposed to be the best player, or even one of the best players-if you do thats, fine, but tell me now, so I can not even bother arguing with you, as that would show you know nothing of this sport. That is as silly of an analogy as you coinsider my post to be.

[ChatterRed]

What has Sean Casey done since he left the Reds?

'Nuff said.

[Nasty_Boy]

Was he making nearly the entire team budget by himself? You really think he was supposed to be the best player, or even one of the best players-if you do thats, fine, but tell me now, so I can not even bother arguing with you, as that would show you know nothing of this sport. That is as silly of an analogy as you coinsider my post to be.

Casey was making about 8 million. He was the 2nd highest paid player behind Jr.

And I fail to see how 13 million is close to 75 million. But then again, your most productive players should be making the most money.

[Ghosts of 1990]

The Reds do stink as an organization. We do. We stink. But the thing is Adam Dunn and his .248 average here in all those years were a huge part of it.

Jay Bruce will become the player Adam Dunn never could be, so; farewell Adam.

[levydl]

What has Sean Casey done since he left the Reds?

'Nuff said.

Been a bit player on good teams?

[ChatterRed]

Casey was making about 8 million. He was the 2nd highest paid player behind Jr.

And I fail to see how 13 million is close to 75 million. But then again, your most productive players should be making the most money.


What kills me is that Dunn said he'd take less to play on a winner. So when he signs a $70 million contract over 5 years, Reds fans will be crying that we could have signed him. He would have wanted more from the Reds. Bank on it.

[redsbuckeye]

What kills me is that Dunn said he'd take less to play on a winner. So when he signs a $70 million contract over 5 years, Reds fans will be crying that we could have signed him. He would have wanted more from the Reds. Bank on it.

That may or may not be true, but you'll never know since he'll never say one way or the other.

[levydl]

What kills me is that Dunn said he'd take less to play on a winner. So when he signs a $70 million contract over 5 years, Reds fans will be crying that we could have signed him. He would have wanted more from the Reds. Bank on it.

Bank on your hypothetical?

[Jack Burton]

Well, it all went downhill for dunn once they took away his Lay Z Boy. A man needs to relax sometimes with a cold brew.

[Nasty_Boy]

The Reds do stink as an organization. We do. We stink. But the thing is Adam Dunn and his .248 average here in all those years were a huge part of it.

Jay Bruce will become the player Adam Dunn never could be, so; farewell Adam.

If Jay Bruce comes close to Adam as an offensive player the he'll be a good one. But until he learns the strike zone and the ability to be patient, he will continue to be a batter that pitchers don't have to throw strikes to get him out. If he learns control of the strikezone he'll be a stud, but he has a long long way to go. He's just an easy out right now.

[Stephenk29]

I think Ryan Howard is hitting .234 right now. I'll take his .234 average. Average is always everything apparently. People would jump at the chance for Howard, but not Dunn:rolleyes:

[Moosie52]

If the Reds didn't care so much about winning (and I can believe that), it's because Junior and Dunn didn't care so much about winning. It was all about Junior enjoying the last few years of his stellar career, of being worshipped by the other players and having 25 built-in friends in the dugout. Junior was not driven to win with the Reds. Oh, once in a while he got serious about winning, but mostly it was about having fun. Dunn was his most steadfast devotee. Maybe if Dunn is with guys who do put winning first now, he will work harder to keep up with them.

[ChatterRed]

So, the Reds are playing better without Dunn. The record holds that up to be true. Enough said.

[kpresidente]

So, the Reds are playing better without Dunn. The record holds that up to be true. Enough said.

The pitching has been much better. Harang and Arroyo in particular.

That's why I'm excited about next year. Getting those two back on track is all the difference. Hopefully, WJ will spend Dunn's money on another top-of-the rotation starter, which will make the staff even better, while providing depth in case there are injuries/poor performances again.

Let the position players take care of themselves. We've got guys in the minors, and stop-gaps will produce enough to win games until they arrive. As long as the pitching can keep games close, that is.

[Ahhhorsepoo]

how can you just say the pitching has been better? the defense is much improved as well..

[aerontg]

I'm just looking forward to next year, when *maybe* guys that are supposed to get on, get on base. And those that are supposed to drive them in do their job. The pitching is fine at this point, and the defense is MUCH better. Main focus this offseason: worry about how you're going to score runs.

[Jr's Boy]

I just we are on the smiling:)side of the scoreboard a lot next season.

[aerontg]

I just we are on the smiling:)side of the scoreboard a lot next season.

And Grande will be there to remind you every time. :D

[redsbuckeye]

So, the Reds are playing better without Dunn. The record holds that up to be true. Enough said.

Post hoc ergo propter hoc.

[redsbuckeye]

how can you just say the pitching has been better? the defense is much improved as well..

While I'm sure this is the case, I'd be curious to see just how much better it has gotten.

I tried to do a pre and post Dunn defensive efficiency split, but data on reached first on errors is hard to come by in a game by game basis (short of checking the play by play for each game, but I don't have that kind of patience).

If anyone else has the will to find that, please let's see it.

[DeadRedinCT]

While I'm sure this is the case, I'd be curious to see just how much better it has gotten.

I tried to do a pre and post Dunn defensive efficiency split, but data on reached first on errors is hard to come by in a game by game basis (short of checking the play by play for each game, but I don't have that kind of patience).

If anyone else has the will to find that, please let's see it.

Been going through these threads and came upon this one and this comment in particular. As redsbuckeye stated, it's hard to come up with reached on error data - Baseball Prospectus and Baseball Reference disagree with the number of ROE. So I went with B-Pro for full season numbers of ROE and with B-Ref for ROE since Dunn has been traded. The formula I used is hier (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/glossary/index.php?search=DEF_EFF).


Defense Efficiency DEF BF H K BB HBP ROE HR

overall 0.6748 5807 1401 1127 507 58 62 185

thru 7/31 0.6762 4292 1034 836 368 39 46 137

thru 8/12 0.6702 4730 1158 916 401 44 55 152

since 8/12 0.6957 1077 243 211 106 14 7 33




There is a discrepancy in the defense efficiency that I calculated (using the link provided above) and that reported on the B-Pro website and I'm not sure why. The defense efficiency since the Dunn trade, if projected over a full season, would put the Reds closer to middle of the pack (as opposed to dead last with both Griffey and Dunn).

[redsbuckeye]

Been going through these threads and came upon this one and this comment in particular. As redsbuckeye stated, it's hard to come up with reached on error data - Baseball Prospectus and Baseball Reference disagree with the number of ROE. So I went with B-Pro for full season numbers of ROE and with B-Ref for ROE since Dunn has been traded. The formula I used is hier (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/glossary/index.php?search=DEF_EFF).


Defense Efficiency DEF BF H K BB HBP ROE HR

overall 0.6748 5807 1401 1127 507 58 62 185

thru 7/31 0.6762 4292 1034 836 368 39 46 137

thru 8/12 0.6702 4730 1158 916 401 44 55 152

since 8/12 0.6957 1077 243 211 106 14 7 33




There is a discrepancy in the defense efficiency that I calculated (using the link provided above) and that reported on the B-Pro website and I'm not sure why. The defense efficiency since the Dunn trade, if projected over a full season, would put the Reds closer to middle of the pack (as opposed to dead last with both Griffey and Dunn).

Good stuff. So the defense really is better without Dunn and Griffey to the point of 2% more chances turned in to outs. That's probably a fairly significant number.

To note, homer rate is down slightly, strikeout rate is slightly up. Walk rate is also slightly up.