Sick and Tired of this...

[Griffey012]

Edinson throws another 119 pitches in a meaningless game, and in his last 4 games.

119
117
110
103

I know Dusty isn't necessarily to blame for Wood and Prior's issues, but it is going to be apparent he doesn't give a rats @$$ about pitch counts, pitchers health, whatsoever. Absolutely no reason to be running Volquez and Cueto for anymore than 80-90 pitches. But hey, these wins now are going to jump us up into a battle for the playoffs right? :thumbup:

[Kingspoint]

Dusty said, "It was a gutsy performance. He was all over the place tonight."

I think the lesson he was trying to teach him tonight was to see if he could pitch well when he didn't have anything, and to do it at the end of a season when he's tired. It was definitely a lesson in mental toughness.

Although I wish Dusty was not in a REDS uniform for one reason and one reason only, his love for Corey Patterson, I feel that he's handled the pitchers well this year.

I'm OK with what he did tonight. As one who was the first one on this board to point out both Thompson's and Harang's overuse and to publicly ask for their shutdown, I feel that Volquez is fine and that there isn't any worry of him being overused this season.

Footnote: Harang's overuse was by the organization, not Baker's. Thompson's overuse was also by the organization. Both moves were corrected by the organization, and I feel really good about the handling of all of the pitcher's in this organization. I think Walt Jockety is doing very well in this area, though I still wish he wasn't here and that we had Krivsky.

[redsbuckeye]

Volquez and Cueto are currently 27th and 28th respectively in pitcher abuse points (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/statistics/sortable/index.php?cid=204015). This is a worrying trend considering they're both under 25 and in the sensitive zone for pitching fatigue related injuries.

Arroyo is 17th but I worry about him much less considering he's now past 30.

[ChatterRed]

Keep in mind that Edinson didn't even pitch 6 full innings. It's partially his fault because he picks at the plate alot. And saying he didn't have good stuff sounds ridiculous when the guy K's 10 batters. I think it's more a case of Dusty trying to help him get to 20 wins with very few chances left in the season.

Let's see.......in other games last night.........

Boston's Lester threw 119 pitches.........

Oakland's starter got hammered for 8 runs early, so he didn't stick around......so did Detroit's pitcher get hammered for 8 runs early, he didn't stick around either.....

Cleveland's Carmona threw 100 pitches in 5 innings but gave up 7 earned runs.......

Baltimore's Olsen went 6 innings throwing 105 pitches......

Marlin's Sanchez got rocked for 5 runs in 2 innings.........didn't stick around....
Phillies Blanton gave up 4 runs in 5 innings while throwing 97 pitches......got yanked for a pinch hitter in a close game (5-4 at the time).

Milwaukee's Dave Bush pitched 8 full innings and only threw 99 pitches, as opposed to Volquez not even pitching 6 full innings but throwing 119. Gotta tip the hat to Bush for being efficient and jab Volquez for not being efficient.

Pittsburgh's Ian Snell threw 103 pitches in 6 innings, but only got pulled because they were losing 3-2 for a pinch hitter.
Houston's Arias threw 69 pitches in 5 innings, but like Snell got pulled for a pinch hitter in a close game.

San Fran's Lincecum threw 126 pitches last night.

I disagree with Dusty most of the time, but this isn't one of those times. Volquez has struck out 23 batters in his last 2 games. Pretty ridiculous to say he doesn't still have good stuff.

[BurgervilleBuck]

Although I wish Dusty was not in a REDS uniform for one reason and one reason only, his love for Corey Patterson, I feel that he's handled the pitchers well this year.
So when Patterson's gone after this season, will you have full-on love for the Bakerman?

[nemesis]

Volquez and Cueto are currently 27th and 28th respectively in pitcher abuse points (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/statistics/sortable/index.php?cid=204015). This is a worrying trend considering they're both under 25 and in the sensitive zone for pitching fatigue related injuries.

Arroyo is 17th but I worry about him much less considering he's now past 30.

Wow. Linecum with his mechanics is #1. What are the Giants thinking? CC is second. I really hope we dont sign him. 2 maybe 3 years before the big time arm troubles start.

[ChatterRed]

Volquez and Cueto are currently 27th and 28th respectively in pitcher abuse points (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/statistics/sortable/index.php?cid=204015). This is a worrying trend considering they're both under 25 and in the sensitive zone for pitching fatigue related injuries.

Arroyo is 17th but I worry about him much less considering he's now past 30.

What a worthless list that pitcher abuse points was.

Gee, look at the names on that list. I'd say 75% or more are top of the league pitchers. Don't you think the fact that they pitch so well gives them reason to stay in the games longer as opposed to a pitcher that gets shelled every second or third outing????

Names on list:
Lincecum
Sabathia
Verlander
Halladay
Cain
Zambrano
Sheets
Meche
Peavy
Lester
Nolasco
Hamels
J. Santana
Myers
Vasquez
Dempster
Arroyo
Burnett
Perez
Volquez
Cliff Lee
E. Santana
Harang
Bannister

What a skewed list. Their success in pitching leaves them in the games longer than most pitchers. That list is a pile of dung.

[markymark69]

He had 10 strikeouts. Strikeout pitchers throw alot of pitches, plain and simple. We could go back to the pitch to contact theory of Dan O'Brien that seemed to work well.

[redsbuckeye]

What a worthless list that pitcher abuse points was.

Gee, look at the names on that list. I'd say 75% or more are top of the league pitchers. Don't you think the fact that they pitch so well gives them reason to stay in the games longer as opposed to a pitcher that gets shelled every second or third outing????

Names on list:
Lincecum
Sabathia
Verlander
Halladay
Cain
Zambrano
Sheets
Meche
Peavy
Lester
Nolasco
Hamels
J. Santana
Myers
Vasquez
Dempster
Arroyo
Burnett
Perez
Volquez
Cliff Lee
E. Santana
Harang
Bannister

What a skewed list. Their success in pitching leaves them in the games longer than most pitchers. That list is a pile of dung.

Educate yourself:

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=2633

Understand what the numbers mean before you spout off.

[Griffey012]

the matter is that there is no good reason to keep running him out their for that many pitches, unless he is throwing a no hitter and you can't take him out. It has nothing to do with whether he has good stuff or not, it is simply just an idea of not wasting young arms with a heavy workload especially this late in the season when you are out of the playoff hunt. On another note for the majority of the year I have thought Baker has handled his young pitchers well, but these last few starts by Volquez are not necessary pitch counts.

[I(heart)Freel]

I bet EV - now that 20 wins is almost certainly out of the picture - goes back to strict pitch counts and early exits. Even more when we bring up more relievers when AAA playoffs end.

It's a fine line... you want him to stretch his arm out so that when September is meaningful around here, he's ready for a full season (plus). But you don't want to stretch him too much.

Every five days from here on out, and with under 100 thrown... that's my bet. Might even argue you could go every six days with our off days taken into account. That would help Harang, Cueto... everyone really.

[757690]

Educate yourself:

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=2633

Understand what the numbers mean before you spout off.

Actually, after reading that article, it made me agree even more with chatterRed that BP's PAP is a load of dung.

(BTW, nothing in this article repudiates ChatterReds' point that the list is skewed toward the better pitchers because they are better and therefore go deeper into games.)

There is a lot to criticize, but this quote says it all:

"Roughly speaking, "too many pitches" seems to translate to "over 100""

How scientific! "Roughly speaking" and "seems" in the same sentence translates into "we are just guessing."

Leo Mazzone, who was the pitching coach for Maddox, Glavine and Smoltz, guys who pitched well at the age of 40, has been quoted as saying that the 100 pitch number is bunk.

There is no magic number that works for all pitchers. Every pitcher's arm is different and gets fatigued at a different point. Some pitchers get fatigued at a different point depending on the game. For some it is around 85 pitches, for some around 100 and for others it is around 120 pitches.
What you look for is if the pitcher is changing his mechanics. That is when he can damage his arm. That is when you take him out right now. Until then, you look at velocity, control and other obvious factors. The number of pitches are not nearly as important as these other factors.
The main exception is for pitchers 22 and younger. These guys you keep at a low pitch count, no matter what, since their bodies are still developing, and even then, 100 is not a hard number.

[Orodle]

119 pitches isnt anything out of this world. If he cant hold up over 119 pitches then is he really worth it?

[Ahhhorsepoo]

bronson is on there because he is like tim wakefield(obviously not a knuckleballer though).. he never exerts 100% of his energy so he should be safe to throw 150 pitches a game..

[redsbuckeye]

Actually, after reading that article, it made me agree even more with chatterRed that BP's PAP is a load of dung.

(BTW, nothing in this article repudiates ChatterReds' point that the list is skewed toward the better pitchers because they are better and therefore go deeper into games.)

Duh, that's obvious. It's totally beside the point though. PAP is a predictive measure not of how they will perform in later games, but how abused they are which might affect future injury situations. It's also emphasized for younger pitchers since they are more sensitive to arm problems in a joint that may not be fully developed until later in life.

No where am I saying that this is a performance based problem. It is, however, more of an investment protection issue. I would expect that a club that invests millions upon millions of dollars to properly learn how to protect that investment.


There is a lot to criticize, but this quote says it all:

"Roughly speaking, "too many pitches" seems to translate to "over 100""

How scientific! "Roughly speaking" and "seems" in the same sentence translates into "we are just guessing."

Hello strawman.

There was a link in the article to other articles which explain it more. Other articles elsewhere indicate that the 100 pitch count number is variable depending on the player and type of pitcher, but 100 is about an average and also an easy number to relate too (so, partially out of convenience).


Leo Mazzone, who was the pitching coach for Maddox, Glavine and Smoltz, guys who pitched well at the age of 40, has been quoted as saying that the 100 pitch number is bunk.

I could play that game with baseball execs who disagree. It's an appeal to authority, a logical fallacy.


There is no magic number that works for all pitchers. Every pitcher's arm is different and gets fatigued at a different point. Some pitchers get fatigued at a different point depending on the game. For some it is around 85 pitches, for some around 100 and for others it is around 120 pitches.
What you look for is if the pitcher is changing his mechanics. That is when he can damage his arm. That is when you take him out right now. Until then, you look at velocity, control and other obvious factors. The number of pitches are not nearly as important as these other factors.
The main exception is for pitchers 22 and younger. These guys you keep at a low pitch count, no matter what, since their bodies are still developing, and even then, 100 is not a hard number.

This part is fine except it's more like 24 or 25 and under. Bronson being high up on that list is fine because he's older than 30.

But it all doesn't matter, this doesn't mean anything for this year anyway which a lot of people don't understand. You'd want to look at previous years data to see what happens to pitchers who were abused now. For example, the 2003 PAP leaders including some telling examples:

1. Javier Vazquez
2003: 230.7 IP, 154 ERA+
2004: 198.0 IP, 92 ERA+

2. Kerry Wood
2003: 211.0 IP, 133 ERA+
2004: 140.3 IP, 122 ERA+

3. Mark Prior
2003: 211.3 IP, 175 ERA+
2004: 118.7 IP, 118 ERA+

And then after that? Well......

And PAP isn't a 100% predictive number, nowhere am I saying that. Some guys will be able to overcome their abuse and continue to pitch well. But the correlation is that the abused pitchers are more likely to become hurt pitchers.

[redsbuckeye]

And I'll admit PAP isn't a perfect stat. But I've seen nothing else to measure a pitchers abuse or overuse. So until someone comes up with something else, this is the best we got.

If you don't like it, make something better. But don't tell me there's no such thing as abuse.

[Jr's Boy]

I think Volquez either doesn't warm up enough before the game,or doesn't really get going till around the 3rd inning when he gets loose and starts dealing.Seems like he tries too hard early on.