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View Full Version : Trade Phillips and put Keppinger at 2B?



ChatterRed
10-01-2008, 04:37 PM
Anyone interested in saving Phillips $5 million salary and installing Keppinger at 2B?

Did you realize that out of players with atleast 450 at-bats this year, that Keppinger lead all of mlb in strikeouts per at-bat with a rate of 19.1 AB/SO..........he only had 24 in 459 at-abats. In other words, he makes contact. I also think his .260 average was a result of not being completely healthy. http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/ABpSO_leagues.shtml



Gonzalez will be back at SS next year because they owe him too much money.

What do you think?

Lockdwn11
10-01-2008, 04:44 PM
I would be interested in trading anyone not named Volquez, Bruce, or Cueto if the returns were right but I wouldn't go shoping him . I think this team is better if Keppinger isn't in the starting lineup in 08

Nasty_Boy
10-01-2008, 04:55 PM
I'm all for trading Phillips because of the return he could bring. There is enough talent in the majors to take over for Kepp at 2nd in the near future. Just make the team better, I don't care who has to be traded.

And the K/AB thing means nothing. It just lead to a lot of DPs and harmless groundouts.

fadetoblack2880
10-01-2008, 04:55 PM
i'd rather have phillips unless you can get another 2b like him. keppinger coming off the bench would be ideal.

bubbachunk
10-02-2008, 12:09 AM
After seeing him for a full season I do not want Kepp "starting" for my team anywhere unless it is spot duty as a supersub

tommycash
10-02-2008, 09:57 AM
I don't see how putting Keppinger at 2B and trading Phillips away makes us better. That actually makes us worse at 2B. Kepp is a bench/role player in real life. We will be better with Phillips and Gonzo in the middle. EE and Votto will continue to improve next year. Bruce and maybe Dickerson in the outfield with a power bat bought in the outfield. Hanigan with a new face (by free agency) competing for the C spot, and a new 5th starter (either by prospects in our org or by FA or trade) this team will get better. We don't have to do anything to drastic. What was the difference between the Rays of last year and the Rays of this year? They traded Dukes for a minor leaguer, and Delmon Young for Garza and Harris. We traded Griffey for Masset and Richar, and Dunn for Castillo and Owings. The trades we made could make as much impact as the Rays did. But it was the young guys in the Rays system that won it for the Rays this year.

roby
10-02-2008, 11:23 AM
I absolutely hate the idea of trading Brandon Phillips. If the Reds keep moving their good players, they never will get any good. Phillips brings a lot to the table both defensively and offensively. Is he perfect? No. But he is one of the best 2nd basemen in the game. Instead of treading water (i.e. we need pitching, so we trade Josh Hamilton for Edinson Volquez. NOW we need an outfielder. We trade Brandon for an outfielder. NOW we need a 2nd baseman. It just gets crazy). The Reds are going to have to play add on, not trade and make another hole. I certainly am glad that we have Volquez. But it is obvious that we opened up a major weakness in the outfield. The only way to stop this trend is to develop the farm system and make smart free agent signings. I would NOT trade Brandon Phillips!

Nasty_Boy
10-02-2008, 01:08 PM
Brandon Phillips is NOT one of the best 2nd basemen in the league, unless by best you mean 10th or 11th.

freestyle55
10-02-2008, 01:20 PM
Brandon Phillips is NOT one of the best 2nd basemen in the league, unless by best you mean 10th or 11th.

Really? Who are the 10 better than him, all around?

Not saying he's #1, the best player on the Reds, or should be hitting 4th, but would say he's in the 5-6-7 range...

Lockdwn11
10-02-2008, 04:11 PM
Brandon Phillips is NOT one of the best 2nd basemen in the league, unless by best you mean 10th or 11th.



I will have to disagree with you on this. I would like to know who are the 2nd basemen you think are better.

JayBruceFan
10-02-2008, 04:27 PM
Andy Phillips right?

:D

snowstorm
10-02-2008, 04:33 PM
Trading Phillips would be a bad move. I will admit that Phillips slipped a bit offensively from last year, but he still had 21 HR, 78 RBI, and had 80 runs. That's in addition to his defense. I have no problem with Phillips contract now that Griffey and Dunn's contracts are now gone. Keppinger is a nice backup, but does not have enough offensively to warrant starting. Despite hitting for a decent average, he had an OPS this year of only .657 and was not a power threat at all.

The guy would should be trying to trade is Arroyo IMO.

BLEEDS
10-02-2008, 05:30 PM
I'm all for trading Phillips because of the return he could bring. There is enough talent in the majors to take over for Kepp at 2nd in the near future. Just make the team better, I don't care who has to be traded.

And the K/AB thing means nothing. It just lead to a lot of DPs and harmless groundouts.

What he said.

The other HUGE problem with BP is that he is recieving too much Man Love from Dusty, who will bat him 3rd or 4th if he's on this roster, which is about 3-4 spots lower than he deserves, except against Lefties.

I could live with him being packaged for just about anything that can OPS over .800 in OF/Corner IF, and pick from about 3-4 guys in the minors or cheap FA to fill in at 2B, if we don't go with Kepp long term (or he's playing SS).

PEACE

-BLEEDS

BLEEDS
10-02-2008, 05:49 PM
Really? Who are the 10 better than him, all around?

Not saying he's #1, the best player on the Reds, or should be hitting 4th, but would say he's in the 5-6-7 range...


Name Team G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB K SB CS AVG OBP SLG OPS
Chase Utley PHI 159 607 113 177 41 4 33 104 64 104 14 2 .292 .380 .535 .915
Ian Kinsler TEX 121 518 102 165 41 4 18 71 45 67 26 2 .319 .375 .517 .892
Dan Uggla FLA 146 531 97 138 37 1 32 92 77 171 5 5 .260 .360 .514 .874
Dustin Pedroia BOS 157 653 118 213 54 2 17 83 50 52 20 1 .326 .376 .493 .869
Mark DeRosa CHC 149 505 103 144 30 3 21 87 69 106 6 0 .285 .376 .481 .857
Brian Roberts BAL 155 611 107 181 51 8 9 57 82 104 40 10 .296 .378 .450 .828
Kelly Johnson ATL 150 547 86 157 39 6 12 69 52 113 11 6 .287 .349 .446 .795
Alexei Ramirez CWS 136 480 65 139 22 2 21 77 18 61 13 9 .290 .317 .475 .792
Placido Polanco DET 141 580 90 178 34 3 8 58 35 43 7 1 .307 .350 .417 .768
Jose Lopez SEA 159 644 80 191 41 1 17 89 27 67 6 3 .297 .322 .443 .764
Brandon Phillips CIN 141 559 80 146 24 7 21 78 39 93 23 10 .261 .312 .442 .754
Ryan Theriot CHC 149 580 85 178 19 4 1 38 73 58 22 13 .307 .387 .359 .745
Rickie Weeks MIL 129 475 89 111 22 7 14 46 66 115 19 5 .234 .342 .398 .740
Akinori Iwamura TB 152 627 91 172 30 9 6 48 70 131 8 6 .274 .349 .380 .729
Robinson Cano NYY 159 597 70 162 35 3 14 72 26 65 2 4 .271 .305 .410 .715
Marco Scutaro TOR 145 517 76 138 23 1 7 60 57 65 7 2 .267 .341 .356 .697
Mark Ellis OAK 117 442 55 103 20 3 12 41 53 65 14 2 .233 .321 .373 .694
Freddy Sanchez PIT 145 569 75 154 26 2 9 52 21 63 0 1 .271 .298 .371 .669



Ranked by OPS, qualified MLB 2008, he's 11th.

Only 4 guys on this list have an OBP under .320, and Brandon's one of them.

I'd be hard pressed to take him over ANYONE ranked higher than him, and I could easily take 2-3 below him over him.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

snowstorm
10-02-2008, 06:19 PM
Second base is not the problem with this team. I'd prefer just to stick with Phillips.

However, if the team does trade him, it had better be for another second baseman. Keppinger is not the answer here.

roby
10-02-2008, 07:06 PM
Name Team G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB K SB CS AVG OBP SLG OPS
Chase Utley PHI 159 607 113 177 41 4 33 104 64 104 14 2 .292 .380 .535 .915
Ian Kinsler TEX 121 518 102 165 41 4 18 71 45 67 26 2 .319 .375 .517 .892
Dan Uggla FLA 146 531 97 138 37 1 32 92 77 171 5 5 .260 .360 .514 .874
Dustin Pedroia BOS 157 653 118 213 54 2 17 83 50 52 20 1 .326 .376 .493 .869
Mark DeRosa CHC 149 505 103 144 30 3 21 87 69 106 6 0 .285 .376 .481 .857
Brian Roberts BAL 155 611 107 181 51 8 9 57 82 104 40 10 .296 .378 .450 .828
Kelly Johnson ATL 150 547 86 157 39 6 12 69 52 113 11 6 .287 .349 .446 .795
Alexei Ramirez CWS 136 480 65 139 22 2 21 77 18 61 13 9 .290 .317 .475 .792
Placido Polanco DET 141 580 90 178 34 3 8 58 35 43 7 1 .307 .350 .417 .768
Jose Lopez SEA 159 644 80 191 41 1 17 89 27 67 6 3 .297 .322 .443 .764
Brandon Phillips CIN 141 559 80 146 24 7 21 78 39 93 23 10 .261 .312 .442 .754
Ryan Theriot CHC 149 580 85 178 19 4 1 38 73 58 22 13 .307 .387 .359 .745
Rickie Weeks MIL 129 475 89 111 22 7 14 46 66 115 19 5 .234 .342 .398 .740
Akinori Iwamura TB 152 627 91 172 30 9 6 48 70 131 8 6 .274 .349 .380 .729
Robinson Cano NYY 159 597 70 162 35 3 14 72 26 65 2 4 .271 .305 .410 .715
Marco Scutaro TOR 145 517 76 138 23 1 7 60 57 65 7 2 .267 .341 .356 .697
Mark Ellis OAK 117 442 55 103 20 3 12 41 53 65 14 2 .233 .321 .373 .694
Freddy Sanchez PIT 145 569 75 154 26 2 9 52 21 63 0 1 .271 .298 .371 .669



Ranked by OPS, qualified MLB 2008, he's 11th.

Only 4 guys on this list have an OBP under .320, and Brandon's one of them.

I'd be hard pressed to take him over ANYONE ranked higher than him, and I could easily take 2-3 below him over him.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

I'm glad you are not in charge, then!

roby
10-02-2008, 07:09 PM
Brandon Phillips is NOT one of the best 2nd basemen in the league, unless by best you mean 10th or 11th.

You are kidding, right? Phillips is indeed a op of the line defensive 2nd baseman. DFo you ever watch the Reds play, or do you just look at stat sheets? While phillips is NOT a 3rd or 4th place hitter, he still has value with the bat as well. I'm convinced that he is going to improve some more. He is still in his mid twenties and was a late bloomer.

Lockdwn11
10-02-2008, 09:38 PM
Name Team G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB K SB CS AVG OBP SLG OPS
Chase Utley PHI 159 607 113 177 41 4 33 104 64 104 14 2 .292 .380 .535 .915
Ian Kinsler TEX 121 518 102 165 41 4 18 71 45 67 26 2 .319 .375 .517 .892
Dan Uggla FLA 146 531 97 138 37 1 32 92 77 171 5 5 .260 .360 .514 .874
Dustin Pedroia BOS 157 653 118 213 54 2 17 83 50 52 20 1 .326 .376 .493 .869
Mark DeRosa CHC 149 505 103 144 30 3 21 87 69 106 6 0 .285 .376 .481 .857
Brian Roberts BAL 155 611 107 181 51 8 9 57 82 104 40 10 .296 .378 .450 .828
Kelly Johnson ATL 150 547 86 157 39 6 12 69 52 113 11 6 .287 .349 .446 .795
Alexei Ramirez CWS 136 480 65 139 22 2 21 77 18 61 13 9 .290 .317 .475 .792
Placido Polanco DET 141 580 90 178 34 3 8 58 35 43 7 1 .307 .350 .417 .768
Jose Lopez SEA 159 644 80 191 41 1 17 89 27 67 6 3 .297 .322 .443 .764
Brandon Phillips CIN 141 559 80 146 24 7 21 78 39 93 23 10 .261 .312 .442 .754
Ryan Theriot CHC 149 580 85 178 19 4 1 38 73 58 22 13 .307 .387 .359 .745
Rickie Weeks MIL 129 475 89 111 22 7 14 46 66 115 19 5 .234 .342 .398 .740
Akinori Iwamura TB 152 627 91 172 30 9 6 48 70 131 8 6 .274 .349 .380 .729
Robinson Cano NYY 159 597 70 162 35 3 14 72 26 65 2 4 .271 .305 .410 .715
Marco Scutaro TOR 145 517 76 138 23 1 7 60 57 65 7 2 .267 .341 .356 .697
Mark Ellis OAK 117 442 55 103 20 3 12 41 53 65 14 2 .233 .321 .373 .694
Freddy Sanchez PIT 145 569 75 154 26 2 9 52 21 63 0 1 .271 .298 .371 .669



Ranked by OPS, qualified MLB 2008, he's 11th.

Only 4 guys on this list have an OBP under .320, and Brandon's one of them.

I'd be hard pressed to take him over ANYONE ranked higher than him, and I could easily take 2-3 below him over him.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

LOL So your tell all of us you would trade BP for Placido Polanco? I'm sure the Tiger would be more than happy to do that deal. BP has a better glove then 99.9 of the players on your list surely that should count for something. I would take Chase Utley , Ian Kinsler and maybe Alexei Ramirez over Brandon but thats about it

kpresidente
10-02-2008, 09:41 PM
Ranked by OPS, qualified MLB 2008, he's 11th.

Only 4 guys on this list have an OBP under .320, and Brandon's one of them.

I'd be hard pressed to take him over ANYONE ranked higher than him, and I could easily take 2-3 below him over him.


Defensively, he was 2nd in MLB in RZR and 3rd in FPct. Overall, only Mark Ellis, who led both stats, was better with the glove.

That being said, the 5-7 rank somebody else gave was pretty close. I'd go with 7th before 5th, but 7th is still quite a bit above average.


Phillips needs to be used right. He needs to be a middle-of-the-order bat against lefties (.914 3-year OPS), and bat 8th against RH (.720), where you can at least utilize his speed to generate runs in front of the pitcher. The fact that Dusty can't see that isn't Phillips's fault.

I don't want to trade him. I wanted to trade him last year because I knew it was a career year. Now I just think you're opening up a hole unnecessarily. Plus the guy could solve our problems at SS if it came to that.

freestyle55
10-03-2008, 08:45 AM
Ranked by OPS, qualified MLB 2008, he's 11th.

Only 4 guys on this list have an OBP under .320, and Brandon's one of them.

I'd be hard pressed to take him over ANYONE ranked higher than him, and I could easily take 2-3 below him over him.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

And last year he was 8th...with the aging Jeff Kent as one of those ahead of him...he had a down year, and the Reds Management, as they typically do with all of their players, have no idea how to best maximize his output. It's been said a billion times, bat him 4th against LH, lower against RH. He's at the top of the list with defense, most definitely over most of those players above him.

While I'm happy to argue how much defense matters in a LF position, I don't think anyone will argue that 2B is not an important position for defense, and Brandon Phillips is head and shoulders above most everyone at that position.

I'd be hard pressed to take many people over him, except Utley, Pedroia, Kinsler, maybe Ramirez...

Nasty_Boy
10-03-2008, 10:03 AM
The point of all of this is the Reds could make themselves a better team by trading Brandon. He has value in the trade market, and he could be replaced in house. And yes, I watch ever stinking game and I know BP can pick it at 2nd. I'm not questioning his defense which is outstanding, but you could improve yourself as a team by trading him. I'm also worried that 2007 is the best that BP can be at the plate. He has terrible plate discipline, and he is an out machine. Although his defense is great, it is really only worth about 1 to 1.5 wins over the average 2nd baseman. And to answer the Placido Palanco question, yes I would rather have him than Phillips for a couple of reasons. 1) Palanco is a plus defensive 2nd baseman, he may not have BP range but he's gold glove caliber. 2) Dusty would never hit him 3-4 in the lineup. He would hit him 2nd, or 6th-7th. Palanco's OBP would be great in the 2 hole, he also never Ks so he would be a great hit and run candidate. What I'm saying is Palanco's skill set is better suited for this team than Brandon Phillips. And BP is entering his prime years, he should not have regressed so much this season. He has the tools to be a great offensive player, he just doesn't have the head or the coachs to reach that potential.

But I would take any of the first 6 on that list and Palanco before BP. I just think he needs a better coaching staff and environment to become an elite 2nd baseman.

ChatterRed
10-03-2008, 10:10 AM
Phillips isn't going anywhere. The point of this thread was saving money. Other than the pitchers, the only everyday players making some bucks are Phillips, Gonzalez, and Freel.

I've read that second base is the easiest position to play/field in mlb.

You're not going to be able to trade Gonzalez or Freel since they are coming off injuries. We are stuck with them. If you want to free up more payroll, Phillips is the only real candidate unless you unload Arroyo, Harang, or Cordero.

It was just a question. I can see most on here adore BP and do not want to trade him. I like BP too, but in no way do I think he is irreplaceable. Defense is his strength. I think his hitting needs to improve and he makes alot of dumb moves on the basepaths.

Just my $.02 cents.

kpresidente
10-03-2008, 10:23 AM
I'm not questioning his defense which is outstanding, but you could improve yourself as a team by trading him.

How so?

Why is his value higher for somebody else than for us? There's only two ways, in general, to get value in a trade. The obvious one is trade from a position of strength to a position of weakness, the other is to trade a big salary to a large-market team who doesn't value every dollar as much.

Is 2B a position of strength? For all the talk about Phillips offensively, Keppinger would have ranked dead last among qualified 2B in OPS. His OBP was lower than Phillips's, and he doesn't have the power. He's also a defensive liability, which is huge because we have issues at SS as well. If you ditch Phillips and pencil Keppinger in a 2B, then 2B becomes the biggest weakness on the team next to LF, which could be filled in FA without having to give anything up. I'd probably go that route before trading Phillips.

What about in the line-up? Phillips absolutely kills LHP. Given that Jay Bruce can't hit LHP for squat, it makes good sense to swap them in and out of one of the 3/4/5 spots. Trade Phillips and you've lost a middle-of-the order bat against LHP.

What about his salary? That's certainly an issue down the road, but as for right now, he's only scheduled to make $4.75M in '09 and $6.75M in '10.


I don't think anybody's putting Phillips on the "untouchables" list, it's just that I don't see how should be targeted for trade bait, either.

Nasty_Boy
10-03-2008, 10:29 AM
I don't want Kepp at 2nd. I think that you could get some serious help by packaging BP and others. I'm not going to pretend to know who's available or who the Reds are willing to trade. But if take BP's money off the books, and use it towards a SS, C, CF, or pitcher, you could get bye with Kepp, Freel, Jerry, or Janish until Valaika, Turner, or even Frazier are ready. I'm not under the illusion the Reds can win next season, so I see this a move that would help more in 2010. I think that Phillips is going to be severly overpaid compared to his production in 2-3 seasons.

kpresidente
10-03-2008, 10:38 AM
I don't want Kepp at 2nd. I think that you could get some serious help by packaging BP and others. I'm not going to pretend to know who's available or who the Reds are willing to trade. But if take BP's money off the books, and use it towards a SS, C, CF, or pitcher, you could get bye with Kepp, Freel, Jerry, or Janish until Valaika, Turner, or even Frazier are ready. I'm not under the illusion the Reds can win next season, so I see this a move that would help more in 2010. I think that Phillips is going to be severly overpaid compared to his production in 2-3 seasons.

If you don't like him long-term, and you're playing for 2010, then trade him after next year. To trade him now is selling low. This was his worst season as a starter.

And what do you care about "using his money toward x,y,z" positions if you're throwing in the towel on 2009? If that's the case, don't bring in anybody. Just put all our money in the bank and spend it then.

Nasty_Boy
10-03-2008, 11:44 AM
I would be more than 100% happy with the Reds saving their money and making a push for 2010. I don't think there is anyways short of signing CC and trading for Holiday, that the Reds compete in '09. As for the selling low on BP, I think there is a definate possibility that he regresses even further next season. He won't have the protection of AD hitting behind him, and as long as Duhsty keeps him in the 3-4 hole he will continue to hinder this team's offensive production. Trust me, I want to see BP be the offensive player that he has the talent to be... I just don't think he has the mind set to do it under this coaching staff.

BLEEDS
10-03-2008, 11:47 AM
The point of all of this is the Reds could make themselves a better team by trading Brandon. He has value in the trade market, and he could be replaced in house. And yes, I watch ever stinking game and I know BP can pick it at 2nd. I'm not questioning his defense which is outstanding, but you could improve yourself as a team by trading him. I'm also worried that 2007 is the best that BP can be at the plate. He has terrible plate discipline, and he is an out machine. Although his defense is great, it is really only worth about 1 to 1.5 wins over the average 2nd baseman.

And to answer the Placido Palanco question, yes I would rather have him than Phillips for a couple of reasons. 1) Palanco is a plus defensive 2nd baseman, he may not have BP range but he's gold glove caliber. 2) Dusty would never hit him 3-4 in the lineup. He would hit him 2nd, or 6th-7th. Palanco's OBP would be great in the 2 hole, he also never Ks so he would be a great hit and run candidate. What I'm saying is Palanco's skill set is better suited for this team than Brandon Phillips.

And BP is entering his prime years, he should not have regressed so much this season. He has the tools to be a great offensive player, he just doesn't have the head or the coachs to reach that potential.

But I would take any of the first 6 on that list and Palanco before BP. I just think he needs a better coaching staff and environment to become an elite 2nd baseman.

:clap::clap:
:notworthy:notworthy
:beerme:

This is 100% dead on. Especially the bolded points.

Add to this the fact that EVERYONE can agree that BP is being used incorrectly - and the fact that EVERYONE SHOULD KNOW that he will CONTINUE TO BE USED INCORRECTLY with this Manager and FO, then the BEST option is to trade him for an even more valuable Asset.

Even Dusty could not do anything wrong with Holliday, put him in the 4 hole and never look back.

Splits, OBP, OPS, tendencies - not his game. Give him something he can't possibly screw up.

BP is also a prima donna and needs his ego stroked. We got rid of one guy for being that (KGJ) so we don't need another. Can you IMAGINE the media quotes we'd get from BP if Dusty actually had the Cohones, let alone Smarts, to bat him 6th or 7th versus RHP?!!? 70% of the time?!?!?

Everyone acts like he's not replaceable, and this is about as far from the truth as you can get. Only a hurt Keppinger and Corey Patterson had worse OPS in our entire lineup - who had 0ver 50 games and not a Catcher or Pitcher. SAD, almost pathetic.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

kpresidente
10-03-2008, 11:59 AM
Add to this the fact that EVERYONE can agree that BP is being used incorrectly - and the fact that EVERYONE SHOULD KNOW that he will CONTINUE TO BE USED INCORRECTLY with this Manager and FO, then the BEST option is to trade him for an even more valuable Asset.
This is ridiculous logic.

You trade a player because your manager isn't using him right? Why not just tell the manager to use him right?



Only a hurt Keppinger and Corey Patterson had worse OPS in our entire lineup - who had 0ver 50 games and not a Catcher or Pitcher. SAD, almost pathetic.
How is it unusual that a middle-infielder have the third-lowest OPS on the team?

kpresidente
10-03-2008, 12:01 PM
I would be more than 100% happy with the Reds saving their money and making a push for 2010. I don't think there is anyways short of signing CC and trading for Holiday, that the Reds compete in '09. As for the selling low on BP, I think there is a definate possibility that he regresses even further next season. He won't have the protection of AD hitting behind him, and as long as Duhsty keeps him in the 3-4 hole he will continue to hinder this team's offensive production. Trust me, I want to see BP be the offensive player that he has the talent to be... I just don't think he has the mind set to do it under this coaching staff.
"Protection" doesn't exist. Just a myth.

http://www.sabernomics.com/sabernomics/index.php/2004/09/the-protection-externality-it-doesnt-exist/

I don't see why he would be worse than this year.

redsfandan
10-03-2008, 12:18 PM
Phillips isn't going anywhere. The point of this thread was saving money. Other than the pitchers, the only everyday players making some bucks are Phillips, Gonzalez, and Freel.

I've read that second base is the easiest position to play/field in mlb.

You're not going to be able to trade Gonzalez or Freel since they are coming off injuries. We are stuck with them. If you want to free up more payroll, Phillips is the only real candidate unless you unload Arroyo, Harang, or Cordero.

It was just a question. I can see most on here adore BP and do not want to trade him. I like BP too, but in no way do I think he is irreplaceable. Defense is his strength. I think his hitting needs to improve and he makes alot of dumb moves on the basepaths.

Just my $.02 cents.

bgwilly31
10-03-2008, 12:28 PM
So what your trying to say is Kepp. is pretty much AS good as Phillips. :lol:

Come on.

Seriously.

No, i'm always hearing how we need defense behind this team. And now people are thinking of trading our only potential gold glover.

Knightro28
10-03-2008, 12:35 PM
Name Team G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB K SB CS AVG OBP SLG OPS
Chase Utley PHI 159 607 113 177 41 4 33 104 64 104 14 2 .292 .380 .535 .915
Ian Kinsler TEX 121 518 102 165 41 4 18 71 45 67 26 2 .319 .375 .517 .892
Dan Uggla FLA 146 531 97 138 37 1 32 92 77 171 5 5 .260 .360 .514 .874
Dustin Pedroia BOS 157 653 118 213 54 2 17 83 50 52 20 1 .326 .376 .493 .869
Mark DeRosa CHC 149 505 103 144 30 3 21 87 69 106 6 0 .285 .376 .481 .857
Brian Roberts BAL 155 611 107 181 51 8 9 57 82 104 40 10 .296 .378 .450 .828
Kelly Johnson ATL 150 547 86 157 39 6 12 69 52 113 11 6 .287 .349 .446 .795
Alexei Ramirez CWS 136 480 65 139 22 2 21 77 18 61 13 9 .290 .317 .475 .792
Placido Polanco DET 141 580 90 178 34 3 8 58 35 43 7 1 .307 .350 .417 .768
Jose Lopez SEA 159 644 80 191 41 1 17 89 27 67 6 3 .297 .322 .443 .764
Brandon Phillips CIN 141 559 80 146 24 7 21 78 39 93 23 10 .261 .312 .442 .754
Ryan Theriot CHC 149 580 85 178 19 4 1 38 73 58 22 13 .307 .387 .359 .745
Rickie Weeks MIL 129 475 89 111 22 7 14 46 66 115 19 5 .234 .342 .398 .740
Akinori Iwamura TB 152 627 91 172 30 9 6 48 70 131 8 6 .274 .349 .380 .729
Robinson Cano NYY 159 597 70 162 35 3 14 72 26 65 2 4 .271 .305 .410 .715
Marco Scutaro TOR 145 517 76 138 23 1 7 60 57 65 7 2 .267 .341 .356 .697
Mark Ellis OAK 117 442 55 103 20 3 12 41 53 65 14 2 .233 .321 .373 .694
Freddy Sanchez PIT 145 569 75 154 26 2 9 52 21 63 0 1 .271 .298 .371 .669



Ranked by OPS, qualified MLB 2008, he's 11th.

Only 4 guys on this list have an OBP under .320, and Brandon's one of them.

I'd be hard pressed to take him over ANYONE ranked higher than him, and I could easily take 2-3 below him over him.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

But what about defense? Have you seen Dan Uggla anytime recently? Did you watch DeRosa's glorious game last night against the Dodgers? And come on, Kelly Johnson and Placido Polanco cannot be thought of in the same level as Brandon Phillips. He is relatively young, and has a great combo of offense and defense

Nasty_Boy
10-03-2008, 12:38 PM
How is it unusual that a middle-infielder have the third-lowest OPS on the team?

It's becoming more and more unusual... but then again, how many middle infield - defense first players are their team's highest paid position player? BP has to do more offensively for the Reds to justify paying him what he's getting paid.

As for your protection myth... that's all well and good but you can't deny that BP was at his best when Jr was getting on in front of him and Dunn was swinging it well behind him. Even if that's not the case, Brandon Phillips will hurt our run production because Dusty will not use him in the bottom half of the order.

Trade him, play the young guys, spend your money on 2010 when the prospects have developed and this team is an arm or a bat away from being a serious contender. I don't want them spending just to be spending. Aging players and bad contracts could set this franchise back once again. Go young, build around Jay, Joey, Volquie, and Cueto. Trust your scouts and your drafts, so that way your ready for Frazier, Alonso, Valaika, Dorn, and even Stubbs and Soto, to play major roles on a contending team.

Nasty_Boy
10-03-2008, 12:43 PM
He's not that young, he's not cheap, and his defense (while special) is only worth about 1 to 1.5 wins a year. I would venture to say that regardless of Uggla's D, his bat makes up for it... The same goes with Uttley.

Give the first 6 and Palanco.... They are all better suited for the Reds than Brandon Phillips. As for Palanco, his defense is top notch. He lacks the range that BP has, but his glove is stellar. Oh, how I would love to have Brian Roberts!

Nasty_Boy
10-03-2008, 12:44 PM
Before I get back to work.... Check out BP's numbers after the ASB. He was Cory Patterson-esqu. He is a lot closer to Pokey Reese than he is to Joe Morgan.

BLEEDS
10-03-2008, 01:30 PM
This is ridiculous logic.

You trade a player because your manager isn't using him right? Why not just tell the manager to use him right?


Ridiculous Logic? Hardly. Which team do you watch? Do you pay attention to the way players get consistently put OUT of position, and NOT have their skils utilized in the best possible manner?

IFF it was that easy, just to "tell the manager to use him right" it would have been done by now. It hasn't, and it won't. It took 300 AB"s from Corey Patterson's GLARING weaknesses to get him out of the lead-off position. It would actually take some RESEARCH to see beyond the back of the bubble gum card to figure out BP's being used TOTALLY wrong. Not happening with the DUHster.

I'll tell you what is Ridiculous Logic - continuing to bat a guy who 70% of the time is your 7th best hitter, in the 4 hole.



How is it unusual that a middle-infielder have the third-lowest OPS on the team?

It isn't - that's usually why they're batting 7th or 8th, not 4th.
THAT is the unusuality.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

kpresidente
10-03-2008, 02:07 PM
He's not that young, he's not cheap, and his defense (while special) is only worth about 1 to 1.5 wins a year. I would venture to say that regardless of Uggla's D, his bat makes up for it... The same goes with Uttley.

Give the first 6 and Palanco.... They are all better suited for the Reds than Brandon Phillips. As for Palanco, his defense is top notch. He lacks the range that BP has, but his glove is stellar. Oh, how I would love to have Brian Roberts!

So the argument is Phillips isn't as good as Utley or Uggla? No kidding.

But since we're talking win shares, Brian Roberts was good for a whopping 3 more than Phillips (in 75 more ABs, but I'll leave that alone). Roberts will make $8 million next year. Is 3 wins worth $3.25 million extra in salary? That's $1.1 million per win. This year we paid $1 million per win. Conclusion: Valuewise, a straight Brian Roberts for Brandon Phillips swap favors the Orioles slightly.


Besides, I thought you were playing for 2010? Brian Roberts will be a FA. If you like him, you can sign him then, but I doubt he'll come cheaper than BP.


BTW - Phillips was worth 3 wins over Polanco.

kpresidente
10-03-2008, 02:11 PM
Ridiculous Logic? Hardly. Which team do you watch? Do you pay attention to the way players get consistently put OUT of position, and NOT have their skils utilized in the best possible manner?


Yeah, but we're talking what should happen. As in, Brandon Phillips should or should not be traded.

Whether or not he's gets traded, just like whether or not Dusty bats him in the correct spot, is a different conversation.

BLEEDS
10-03-2008, 02:51 PM
Yeah, but we're talking what should happen. As in, Brandon Phillips should or should not be traded.

Whether or not he's gets traded, just like whether or not Dusty bats him in the correct spot, is a different conversation.

Well, we already knew what SHOULD happen with him in the lineup, but it DIDN'T happen, and likely WON'T so that IS a factor to whether we SHOULD trade him, or not.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

BLEEDS
10-03-2008, 02:51 PM
Is 3 wins worth $3.25 million extra in salary?

YES! Emphatically.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

bgwilly31
10-03-2008, 02:52 PM
Before I get back to work.... Check out BP's numbers after the ASB. He was Cory Patterson-esqu. He is a lot closer to Pokey Reese than he is to Joe Morgan.

The season was over after the all-star break.

B-Phillips had an off year. He strives in the clutch. When your 15games back there is no clutch.

When this team is a contender i definitely want B-PHillips here.

You dont become a contender when you continue to trade away your talent because you dont want to spend the money.

kpresidente
10-03-2008, 02:58 PM
YES! Emphatically.


Good. Then you emphatically love 72 win seasons, because at that rate, that's how many an $80 million payroll will buy.

roby
10-03-2008, 04:07 PM
The point of all of this is the Reds could make themselves a better team by trading Brandon. He has value in the trade market, and he could be replaced in house. And yes, I watch ever stinking game and I know BP can pick it at 2nd. I'm not questioning his defense which is outstanding, but you could improve yourself as a team by trading him. I'm also worried that 2007 is the best that BP can be at the plate. He has terrible plate discipline, and he is an out machine. Although his defense is great, it is really only worth about 1 to 1.5 wins over the average 2nd baseman. And to answer the Placido Palanco question, yes I would rather have him than Phillips for a couple of reasons. 1) Palanco is a plus defensive 2nd baseman, he may not have BP range but he's gold glove caliber. 2) Dusty would never hit him 3-4 in the lineup. He would hit him 2nd, or 6th-7th. Palanco's OBP would be great in the 2 hole, he also never Ks so he would be a great hit and run candidate. What I'm saying is Palanco's skill set is better suited for this team than Brandon Phillips. And BP is entering his prime years, he should not have regressed so much this season. He has the tools to be a great offensive player, he just doesn't have the head or the coachs to reach that potential.

But I would take any of the first 6 on that list and Palanco before BP. I just think he needs a better coaching staff and environment to become an elite 2nd baseman.

Oh...O.K. :eek:

roby
10-03-2008, 04:10 PM
He's not that young, he's not cheap, and his defense (while special) is only worth about 1 to 1.5 wins a year. I would venture to say that regardless of Uggla's D, his bat makes up for it... The same goes with Uttley.

Give the first 6 and Palanco.... They are all better suited for the Reds than Brandon Phillips. As for Palanco, his defense is top notch. He lacks the range that BP has, but his glove is stellar. Oh, how I would love to have Brian Roberts!

But, Polanco has a great big mis-shaped head.

roby
10-03-2008, 04:15 PM
Well, we already knew what SHOULD happen with him in the lineup, but it DIDN'T happen, and likely WON'T so that IS a factor to whether we SHOULD trade him, or not.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

If your coaching staff/manager is THAT incompetent...it really doesn't matter what you do (at least with a limited payroll)> You're not going to win anyway. I agree that Phillips should not be batting 3rd or 4th...but trading him so Dusty can't bat him there is like pounding thumb tacks with a sledge hammer.

DannyB
10-04-2008, 10:20 AM
Trading him without knowing how Gonzales is going to be would be a huge mistake IMO.

Hondo
10-15-2008, 05:09 PM
Worst Idea ever, as Kepp proved he is not an everyday player...

ChatterRed
10-15-2008, 08:51 PM
Worst Idea ever, as Kepp proved he is not an everyday player...

When did he prove that?

He was coming back from a broken knee midseason. Not exactly a good sample to look at. :thumbdown

Orodle
10-15-2008, 09:39 PM
I'm a big sabermetrics guy but judging players soley on their OPS is too one diminsional and really hypocritical to the whole "moneyball" movement.

Va Red Fan
10-16-2008, 12:27 PM
If BP could land us a power hitting LF and a prospect or two, I'm fine with that. He can be replaced, easily. I was expecting him to become a top five second baseman this year and he failed to do so. He actually went backward. He has value on the market, but I would want a dependable RH bat, prefer someone who can play LF and maybe a project. If not that kind of return, then he can continue to develop here.

BLEEDS
10-16-2008, 02:03 PM
If BP could land us a power hitting LF and a prospect or two, I'm fine with that. He can be replaced, easily. I was expecting him to become a top five second baseman this year and he failed to do so. He actually went backward. He has value on the market, but I would want a dependable RH bat, prefer someone who can play LF and maybe a project. If not that kind of return, then he can continue to develop here.

Agree 100%.

PEACE

-BLEEDS