Sox offer Abreu... Could Jermaine Dye be back in Walt's plans?

[Nasty_Boy]

Per Trade Rumors


According to Roger Rubin of the New York Daily News, the White Sox offered a one-year, $8MM deal to free agent outfielder Bobby Abreu. If the Sox are able to sign Abreu, you'd have to think Jermaine Dye or Jim Thome would be traded.

Abreu has also been linked recently to the Braves, Mariners, Dodgers, and Giants.

[BEETTLEBUG]

I'm back on Dye's bandwagon hope he is on Walt's

[Bip Roberts]

Why we wouldnt just try to sign Abreu over trading for Dye is kind of mind blowing.

Then again trading young talent for a more expensive guy does seem like a reds type of move.

[smoke6]

Why we wouldnt just try to sign Abreu over trading for Dye is kind of mind blowing.

Then again trading young talent for a more expensive guy does seem like a reds type of move.
I'd rather have Dye. He more of a complete player.:thumbup:

[ChatterRed]

I think signing top of the line free agents lead to giving up compensatory picks. So Walt likes making trades more than signing top line free agents. Just my $.02 cents.

[Bip Roberts]

I'd rather have Dye. He more of a complete player.:thumbup:

complete how? I cant think of a thing Abreu would be worse at than Dye.

[redhawk61]

We could do worse than:

Taveras
Philllips(you know dusty will do it)
Votto
Dye
Bruce
Encarnacion
Hernandez
Agon

[Bip Roberts]

No honestly you probably couldn't

[redhawk61]

No honestly you probably couldn't

care to elaborate

Bruce, Taveras, Hernandez, Dye IMO are all better than who they are replacing from the opening day lineup last year.

[Bip Roberts]

Taveras is goin to play everyday so there is no way he out produces what the reds got out of CF last year.

Bruce probably will out produce Griffey even if he regresses just because of the defense.

Dye is probably a wash with Dunn if you believe that Dye is some how a much better defender than I think he is.

and Hernandez is a better bat but his Defense isnt something im really too excited about.

Then give the fact that dusty is controlling the line up which would keep edwin in the bottom 3rd of it likely I just dont see it being all that much better than last years.

[ChatterRed]

Taveras is goin to play everyday so there is no way he out produces what the reds got out of CF last year.

Bruce probably will out produce Griffey even if he regresses just because of the defense.

Dye is probably a wash with Dunn if you believe that Dye is some how a much better defender than I think he is.

and Hernandez is a better bat but his Defense isnt something im really too excited about.

Then give the fact that dusty is controlling the line up which would keep edwin in the bottom 3rd of it likely I just dont see it being all that much better than last years.

I think any of those players will provide better defense than Dunn and Griffey.

Yes, the Reds will miss Dunn's homers, but I think Dye would hit for better average and is a better clutch hitter than Dunn ever was.

Even if Taveras isn't that good, I think he's better than Patterson offensively.

Yes, I think the Reds have upgraded their outfield.

[redhawk61]

Taveras is goin to play everyday so there is no way he out produces what the reds got out of CF last year.

Bruce probably will out produce Griffey even if he regresses just because of the defense.

Dye is probably a wash with Dunn if you believe that Dye is some how a much better defender than I think he is.

and Hernandez is a better bat but his Defense isnt something im really too excited about.

Then give the fact that dusty is controlling the line up which would keep edwin in the bottom 3rd of it likely I just dont see it being all that much better than last years.
You don't think Willy can out produce .205/.238/.344?

[Bip Roberts]

I think any of those players will provide better defense than Dunn and Griffey.

Yes, the Reds will miss Dunn's homers, but I think Dye would hit for better average and is a better clutch hitter than Dunn ever was.

Even if Taveras isn't that good, I think he's better than Patterson offensively.

Yes, I think the Reds have upgraded their outfield.

I think Taveras is a solid down grade defensively over patterson with only slight offensive. But there is no way Taveras touches the over all reds production from CF last year of a .700 OPS.

They have maybe upgraded their outfield but thats a pretty large maybe. I see it as probably down graded unless Bruce goes nuts this season.

[Bip Roberts]

You don't think Willy can out produce .205/.238/.344?

More people than patterson played CF last year for the Reds

[elfmanvt07]

You don't think Willy can out produce .205/.238/.344?

He almost has to. Heck, he's almost guaranteed to have a higher AVG than Corey's OBP.

[elfmanvt07]

More people than patterson played CF last year for the Reds

But, if you look up, we're talking about opening day rosters.

[Bip Roberts]

But, if you look up, we're talking about opening day rosters.

Pattersons career OPS is better than Taveras so...

but if you want to look at last years OPS we can

Patterson had a .582
Taveras had a .604

Do you doubt that Patterson is better defender?

[Nasty_Boy]

I too, would much rather go after Abreu. Bobby is a much more complete player than Jermaine. Abreu gets on base at a higher clip, hits a few less HRs, is comparable in RBIs, and he can steal you 20 bases. I also think Jermaine is a bigger injury risk and I would rather pay for a bat than give up prospects for one.

As far as CF, you have to remember that JHJ, Bruce, Freel, and Dickerson all spent time in CF last season. IMO, the Reds would be better served with Dorn/Gomes in LF, Dickerson (maybe Stubbs later in the season) in CF, and Bruce in RF. That outfield would give you better production in CF and RF while downgrading in LF, but I think that platoon (Gomes and Dorn) along with some combination of JHJ and Dickerson seeing time there could be close to league average.

[dunner13]

there offering abreu 8 mill, what does dye make this year. I think it was around 12, so it would make more sense to give abreu a 1 yr 10mill offer.

[elfmanvt07]

there offering abreu 8 mill, what does dye make this year. I think it was around 12, so it would make more sense to give abreu a 1 yr 10mill offer.

I honestly think he might take this. Allow him to ride out the bad economy.

[Bip Roberts]

there offering abreu 8 mill, what does dye make this year. I think it was around 12, so it would make more sense to give abreu a 1 yr 10mill offer.

Exactly

[elfmanvt07]

Pattersons career OPS is better than Taveras so...

but if you want to look at last years OPS we can

Patterson had a .582
Taveras had a .604

Do you doubt that Patterson is better defender?

No I don't. But I also don't think that it's a "solid downgrade defensively." I think it's a wash, if you compare both sides of the ball. That being said, the outfield's defense has increased immensely overall, enough to offset the homers, IMO.

[Bip Roberts]

So you concede that we likely downgraded our production from CF last year? I cant wait to see if Patterson gets any time in the majors this year. If he does id laugh if he returns to a more career like OPS. Talk about a waste of cash if that happens.

The outfield D is probably going to be a lot better but that also depends on how LF shakes out.

[texasdave]

Walt had better pull a rabbit out of his hat pretty quickly, because his performance to date has been underwhelming to say the least. Wake up, Walt!! Good players are going for 'fringe money'. Grab one before they're all gone.

[Nasty_Boy]

No I don't. But I also don't think that it's a "solid downgrade defensively." I think it's a wash, if you compare both sides of the ball. That being said, the outfield's defense has increased immensely overall, enough to offset the homers, IMO.

There is absolutely no way that the D is improved enough to offset the loss of offense. Especially when you downgrade in CF. I would take Cpat back hitting 8th for 1 million than Willy leading off in CF for 6 million over 2 seasons. We overpaid for a guy that depends on his bunts going for hits over 60% of the time to be worth anything.

[smoke6]

complete how? I cant think of a thing Abreu would be worse at than Dye.

He's better defesively IMO.

[Nasty_Boy]

I don't think either is a shell of their former selves in the field. I think a move to LF would probably make either of them average for the position. Especially considering both have extremely good arms (although both are declining) compared to the average LF.

[Ghosts of 1990]

After doing nothing this offseason, I'd start talking Arroyo for Dye if they'd do it.

[TheNext44]

I really don't want either. I don't think that they are that much of an upgrade over what we have, when you consider their age, and their defense. Now, if the Reds had not signed Taveras and planted him in CF, than I would be for either of these guys. However, as it stands now, they would be replacing a Dickerson/Gomes platoon, and neither are an $8-10M upgrade over that.

Now if Walt can convince Dusty to platoon Dickerson and Taveras, and then get one of these guys, I would be happy, but I just don't see that happening.

[Bip Roberts]

Taveras has no platoon splits so the Reds will see this as he can play against both lefties and rightiest instead of he sucks against both

[TheNext44]

There is absolutely no way that the D is improved enough to offset the loss of offense. Especially when you downgrade in CF. I would take Cpat back hitting 8th for 1 million than Willy leading off in CF for 6 million over 2 seasons. We overpaid for a guy that depends on his bunts going for hits over 60% of the time to be worth anything.

According to their career numbers, and based on similar playing time, using the simple RC formula, the Reds current outfield will produce 290 runs.

Gomes 47
Dickerson 52
Taveras 72
Bruce 85
Nix 15
Hairston 20


Last year the Reds current outfield produced 295 runs using the simple RC formula.

My projections, which are very debatable, but I think in the ballpark for the Reds outfield next year has them producing 285 runs.

Gomes 45
Dickerson 55
Taveras 55
Bruce 100
Nix 15
Hairston 15

So the Reds, even with Taveras sucking it up in CF, should come pretty close to the offensive production in the outfield that they did last year.

I also think that the defense will be far superior than last years. Taveras is really just a notch below Patterson defensively. Remember he was very good in Houston, but was lost a bit in Coors. GABP is very similar to Minute Made Park, so I think Taveras should be better than he was in Coors. Also remember that Bruce played a lot of innings in CF defensively for the Reds last year, which brought down the defensive production there.
Bruce is a huge improvement over Jr. I loved Jr. but last year, anything not hit right at him was a triple. And Dickerson/Gomes is at least equal to what Dunn did last year defensively. Dickerson is better, Gomes worse.
Overall, the Reds defense should be at least 5-10 runs better than it was last year in the outfield, which would make the overall production around equal.

[Nasty_Boy]

What is similar playing time? How many ABs are you giving each guy?

[TheNext44]

What is similar playing time? How many ABs are you giving each guy?

Gomes 250 AB's
Dickerson 350
Taveras 600 (ugh)
Bruce 600
Nix 100
Hariston 100

That totals 2,000

Last year the Reds had approximately 1,985 AB's from their outfield.

But just to be clear, I agree that the Reds outfield will not be very good this year. It is just that it was not very good last year either. Basically it had Dunn for 4.5 months, Dickerson for one month, Hairston for around two months, and the rest were below average, with Patterson being well below average.

[RedLakerFan24]

I Would do a Stubbs and Thompson for Dye it would give us a pretty good line up

Taveras
Phillips
Votto
Dye
Bruce
Encarnacion
Hernandez
Gonzalez

[Nasty_Boy]

Gomes 250 AB's
Dickerson 350
Taveras 600 (ugh)
Bruce 600
Nix 100
Hariston 100

That totals 2,000

Last year the Reds had approximately 1,985 AB's from their outfield.

But just to be clear, I agree that the Reds outfield will not be very good this year. It is just that it was not very good last year either. Basically it had Dunn for 4.5 months, Dickerson for one month, Hairston for around two months, and the rest were below average, with Patterson being well below average.

I agree, I just wasn't sure what numbers you were using.

[Rusty the Red]

Taveras is goin to play everyday so there is no way he out produces what the reds got out of CF last year.

Bruce probably will out produce Griffey even if he regresses just because of the defense.

Dye is probably a wash with Dunn if you believe that Dye is some how a much better defender than I think he is.

and Hernandez is a better bat but his Defense isnt something im really too excited about.

Then give the fact that dusty is controlling the line up which would keep edwin in the bottom 3rd of it likely I just dont see it being all that much better than last years.

That's goofy. Virtually everybody on this board hated Patterson and he did have a bad year. You replace him with a guy who led the majors in steals last year and he's going to be worse than last year's whipping boy? that's classic - no matter what the Reds do I'm going to hate it attitude.

A bat boy would be better than Dunn in the field, so yes Dye is an upgrade, not one I'd explore, but he would be better.

Hernandez is what many on this board said we had to have - a solid veteran backstop. He can hit and he plays solid defense. He is better than what we began with last year.

EE has never been consistent and I'm not betting on him being so this year. Yes, I can see him batting 6th or seventh.

[RED VAN HOT]

I don't recall if the board was this negative last year. Even if we stand pat, this year's opening day starters will be as good or better at every position with the possible exception of LF. IMO, a Gomes/Dickerson platoon will not be that significant a downgrade, if at all.

This is a transition year. We should not trade high prospects for one to two years of an expensive, aging player when it is unlikely that the player will return a championship. That short term churning strategy is a way to stay bad forever. Does it ever make sense to trade high prospects for veteran players? Yes, when the veteran player has several peak years ahead and he significantly upgrades a position in which the team is weak.

The framework of a good team that will stay together for 3-4 years is in place. Moreover, the payroll is manageable. I suspect that the bad economy will last more than one year. Many teams will be trying to dump salary and get younger for several years. The Reds are in a good position.

[elfmanvt07]

We should not trade high prospects for one to two years of an expensive, aging player when it is unlikely that the player will return a championship.

I agree with this whole heartedly.

I think it's tough sometimes to think that we're not gonna do "that Reds thing" and get rid of all of our young talent on questionable veteran (read "old") players that never pan out. Walt is a different type of GM for this team, and frankly, I don't have any reason yet as to distrust his judgment. None of us have seen how this team will play as a unit, and I'm gonna reserve most of my further judgment until then. Dusty's complete ineptitude in creating a big league lineup is going to hold us back MUCH more than Walt's recent player acquisitions.

[RedLakerFan24]

Walt please trade for Dye or just offer Manny a 2-50 million

[cincyredsone]

i know jocketty tried to get dye during the winter meetings but, the white sox didn't want homer bailey( hard to imagine). i wouldn't mind seeing dye in a reds uniform next season. he would be a great asset on the field and, in the clubhouse.