Its Depressing that.....

[berryluther]

If Harrang bounces back and Arroyo avoids the slow start this will be the best starting 5 the reds have put on the field in almost 2 decades and we have maybe the worst offense in that same time frame.

This offense has the potential to equal that of the Paul Householder and Eddie Milner regime.

The young guys are going to have to have career years to compete in what is the second worst division in baseball. Letas just hope Walt can spin Harrang, Arroyo and Phillips for some uber prospects at the deadline. Then we can start saying wait till 2012 in stead of wait for 2010.

[DTCromer]

Hello Negative Nancy!

[Orodle]

For once I would like to see the Reds keep their vets and combine them with their young studs. Always trading away your vets and you'll never be winning. If we trade for huge prospects that will be ready in say 2 years by then some guys like Volquez and Votto will be in the position where someone wants them to be traded for "uber" prospects. This is the never ending rotation the Reds have been in pretty much since '95.

[berryluther]

For once I would like to see the Reds keep their vets and combine them with their young studs. Always trading away your vets and you'll never be winning. If we trade for huge prospects that will be ready in say 2 years by then some guys like Volquez and Votto will be in the position where someone wants them to be traded for "uber" prospects. This is the never ending rotation the Reds have been in pretty much since '95.

Welcome to major league sports without a salary cap.

[CRedsLarkin11]

Welcome to major league sports without a salary cap.

Isn't that the truth? There is a reason the NFL has taken over, if you fail it is your own fault with personnel decisions. I don't really understand those who defend uncapped play, most of the arguments center around not being able to keep dynasties together but come on, small market teams can't keep their home grown talent once they reach 28. Granted, I am a Steelers fan and they make excellent decisions and would not be near as successful without a cap and I'm a Reds fan, we all know how that has been going without a cap. At least the Reds would have a chance instead of getting this bull crap excuse that the economy is bad so they can't afford their number one priority this offseason and worry about ticket sales that would be much better if you would have actually showed the fans you wanted to win

[improbus]

If Harrang bounces back and Arroyo avoids the slow start this will be the best starting 5 the reds have put on the field in almost 2 decades and we have maybe the worst offense in that same time frame.

This offense has the potential to equal that of the Paul Householder and Eddie Milner regime.

The young guys are going to have to have career years to compete in what is the second worst division in baseball. Letas just hope Walt can spin Harrang, Arroyo and Phillips for some uber prospects at the deadline. Then we can start saying wait till 2012 in stead of wait for 2010.
I'm not quite so down on the offense. We have four legitimate 30 HR threats in Bruce, Phillips, Votto, and EE. Votto's numbers were only slightly off of Dunn's pace from last year (.297, .368, .506, .874). We have speed at multiple positions for the first time in years. I expect to get something from the catcher for the first time since Joe Oliver and Eddie Taubensee laced 'em up. I know the Reds don't have the 40 HR guys, but that doesn't mean that they are the '86 Cardinals.

[stock]

If Harrang bounces back and Arroyo avoids the slow start this will be the best starting 5 the reds have put on the field in almost 2 decades and we have maybe the worst offense in that same time frame.

I agree that this is not anywhere near the best lineup in the league. But assuming no injuries occur between now and April one, this years opening day lineup will be more impressive than last years. Who would you rather have in your lineup:

Griffey, Dunn, Patterson, Keppinger and Bako or

Bruce, Dickerson, Taveras, Gonzalez and Hernandez?

Give me the 2009 lineup anyday. Plus, Phillips is the magical 27 on opening day, EdE is 26 and Votto is settled in.

[akron3344]

Householder and mIlner were great just ask Duane Walker and Mike Vail!

[Ghosts of 1990]

I agree that this is not anywhere near the best lineup in the league. But assuming no injuries occur between now and April one, this years opening day lineup will be more impressive than last years. Who would you rather have in your lineup:

Griffey, Dunn, Patterson, Keppinger and Bako or

Bruce, Dickerson, Taveras, Gonzalez and Hernandez?

Give me the 2009 lineup anyday. Plus, Phillips is the magical 27 on opening day, EdE is 26 and Votto is settled in.

Ok I'll play. Neither is any good. 2009 or 2008. B/c we were abhorrent in 2008, we shouldn't be excused to be horrible again.

I understand the frustration. We do have a very solid pitching staff that with any type of offense and these youngsters in the lineup we could challenge and bring excitement back to the city, make it a true baseball town again. Instead we sign junk 33 year old lefty bench players, a center fielder who is iffy and may be CP from the right side and overall don't make a splash at all.

I used to buy into Castellini wanting to be a winning. That "the losing stops here". He's no different then uncle carl thus far. He just spins things differently.

[swaisuc]

I think you're underestimating how bad some of our offenses have been in the last 20 years. Just for a random example, they showed the 20 strikeout game by Randy Johnson on MLB network the other night. The Reds started an outfield of Sadler, Ochoa, and Rivera, while playing Juan Castro at first base... And this was in May while we still had a winning record.

As bad as the 2009 offense might be, we're not even approaching some of the crap we've thrown out there IMO.

[CesarGeronimo]

I think you're right, Swiasuc. This offense isn't as bad as some of the previous ones. That doesn't make me feel a lot better, but it is true. I actually don't think this year's team is bad at all, compared to what we've seen in recent years.

But it's just disappointing that after all of talk of winning now that the team did so little to improve during the offseason, and that it appears (at least to me) that Dusty Baker is driving the personnel decisions to build a team that fits his 70s model of focusing on speed, aggressive hitting (free swingers with low OBP who do not clog the bases) and "manufacturing runs" with lots of bunting and stolen base attempts.

[roby]

If Harrang bounces back and Arroyo avoids the slow start this will be the best starting 5 the reds have put on the field in almost 2 decades and we have maybe the worst offense in that same time frame.

This offense has the potential to equal that of the Paul Householder and Eddie Milner regime.

The young guys are going to have to have career years to compete in what is the second worst division in baseball. Letas just hope Walt can spin Harrang, Arroyo and Phillips for some uber prospects at the deadline. Then we can start saying wait till 2012 in stead of wait for 2010.

If the Reds trade Phillips and Harang, they're total idiots. These are two solid veterans who have proven that they will take less than market value because they like to play in Cincinnati. They are also the kind of personality players you want to contribute to team leadership. Plus, they have some talent, If the reds ever compete, it won't be by trading these types of players. It will be by making better choices than re-signing Weathers, Patterson, TaverAS-type players.

[xavr1]

I think we are focusing on the wrong part of the original post. He opened by saying that the Reds have the potential to have one of their best staffs in a very long time, and I think THAT is the important takeaway.

Even with an average or below average lineup, that pitching staff alone can keep it interesting for us in the Central. And, yes, I agree that the lineup looks slightly better this year than last. But I am more excited about the pitching.

[Nasty_Boy]

I'm not saying that we should trade Harang or Phillips but potentially we could have been better served by moving them before last season. Harang was coming off another TOR season, Phillips was 30-30 with GG defense while being due quite a bit of money in their "boarderline prime" years. After watching last seasons regression from both, there is a possibility that both never regain their form and just become a payroll burden. And I don't agree with the "team leadership" aspect. I view Phillips as selfish and Harang as a guy that doesn't say much and just does his job, much like Dunn.

As far as this team's offense... The main problem is power, the problem is we are OBP challenged, and we have a manager that doesn't put his players in the best possible spot for them and the team. Take Phillips, Bruce, Edwin, and Votto... BP has no business hitting 4th against RHP, but he will probably do it most of this season regarless of LHP or RHP. Same goes for Bruce, who will probably hit 3rd most games while guys like Votto and Edwin sit in the 5-6 hole and continue to get on base with no body behind them to take advantage of their skills.

We have many issues with the offense and a glaring hole at SS... A healthy Gonzo, and Dusty paying attention to the numbers instead of batting guys in position order (CF, SS, etc.) would go a long way towards helping this team become competitive.

[roby]

I'm not saying that we should trade Harang or Phillips but potentially we could have been better served by moving them before last season. Harang was coming off another TOR season, Phillips was 30-30 with GG defense while being due quite a bit of money in their "boarderline prime" years. After watching last seasons regression from both, there is a possibility that both never regain their form and just become a payroll burden. And I don't agree with the "team leadership" aspect. I view Phillips as selfish and Harang as a guy that doesn't say much and just does his job, much like Dunn.

As far as this team's offense... The main problem is power, the problem is we are OBP challenged, and we have a manager that doesn't put his players in the best possible spot for them and the team. Take Phillips, Bruce, Edwin, and Votto... BP has no business hitting 4th against RHP, but he will probably do it most of this season regarless of LHP or RHP. Same goes for Bruce, who will probably hit 3rd most games while guys like Votto and Edwin sit in the 5-6 hole and continue to get on base with no body behind them to take advantage of their skills.

We have many issues with the offense and a glaring hole at SS... A healthy Gonzo, and Dusty paying attention to the numbers instead of batting guys in position order (CF, SS, etc.) would go a long way towards helping this team become competitive.

Nasty: I agree with most of what you are saying. I think Harang's regression can be blamed on injury. An injury that he appears to completely come back from at the end of last year. I think he will be the normal Harang this season. I also don't see Brandon Phillips as selfish. I think he is vocal, and I think he gets a lot of bad blamed on him simply because his personality is slightly like Chad Johnson's. He is NOT Chad J, however. He is much more of a team player. I hope that he gets out of the #4 spot in the lineup...and that he works the count better than in the past. I do think he is part of the answer for the reds...not part of the problem.

[bgwilly31]

I'm not saying that we should trade Harang or Phillips but potentially we could have been better served by moving them before last season. Harang was coming off another TOR season, Phillips was 30-30 with GG defense while being due quite a bit of money in their "boarderline prime" years. After watching last seasons regression from both, there is a possibility that both never regain their form and just become a payroll burden. And I don't agree with the "team leadership" aspect. I view Phillips as selfish and Harang as a guy that doesn't say much and just does his job, much like Dunn.

As far as this team's offense... The main problem is power, the problem is we are OBP challenged, and we have a manager that doesn't put his players in the best possible spot for them and the team. Take Phillips, Bruce, Edwin, and Votto... BP has no business hitting 4th against RHP, but he will probably do it most of this season regarless of LHP or RHP. Same goes for Bruce, who will probably hit 3rd most games while guys like Votto and Edwin sit in the 5-6 hole and continue to get on base with no body behind them to take advantage of their skills.

We have many issues with the offense and a glaring hole at SS... A healthy Gonzo, and Dusty paying attention to the numbers instead of batting guys in position order (CF, SS, etc.) would go a long way towards helping this team become competitive.


BP as selfish.

Please explain. ... im curious to hear your outlandish explanation of that statement.

Ive listened to probably 20 different BP interviews.

Before and after the Griffey+Dunn era.

Have you>?

[DTCromer]

I think you're underestimating how bad some of our offenses have been in the last 20 years. Just for a random example, they showed the 20 strikeout game by Randy Johnson on MLB network the other night. The Reds started an outfield of Sadler, Ochoa, and Rivera, while playing Juan Castro at first base... And this was in May while we still had a winning record.

As bad as the 2009 offense might be, we're not even approaching some of the crap we've thrown out there IMO.


If I'm not mistaken, we pretty much played every single RH batter we had in that game. Most of those guys were regular bench players.

[swaisuc]

If I'm not mistaken, we pretty much played every single RH batter we had in that game. Most of those guys were regular bench players.


I agree (Casey and Dmitri Young at least were on the bench and healthy), but given our present roster I find it hard to believe Baker will run out a lineup anywhere near that for any game this year.

It would be something like us starting a lineup with Janish at 1st and an OF of Nix, Dickerson, and Hopper. You're welcome for the scary visual.

[Nasty_Boy]

BP as selfish.

Please explain. ... im curious to hear your outlandish explanation of that statement.

Ive listened to probably 20 different BP interviews.

Before and after the Griffey+Dunn era.

Have you>?

Yes I have!

The man had problems with the attention Hamilton and Jr recieved during his run to 30-30. He rubbed many journalists (C. Trent and Hal) wrong with his actions after games. Last season in San Fran after he had struggled for about a month, he wouldn't talk to reporters after a 2 HR game because they had ignored him while he struggled. He says he wants to be a leader, yet his actions on the field don't lead me to believe that. They way acts and runs after hitting HR's is saying, "Hey look at me." His game at the plate seems to be driven by stats instead of playing the team game. All too many times he swings and misses at a 1st pitch slider away after a teammate walks, or he hits into a 1st pitch DP and doesn't run hard to 1st. It shows me that he's not mature enough to handle the highs and lows of the game.

I think he's a ultra-talented player that has the skills to be an all time great with his speed, power, defense combination... but I haven't seen it translate. And I think the Chad Johnson comparison is right... As long as things are good and BP is in the news and not Jr and Hammy (or soon to be Jay and Joey) he'll be fine, when things are bad the guy pouts like my 3 year old!

[Redus]

Householder and mIlner were great just ask Duane Walker and Mike Vail!

What no Wayne Krenchicki or Brad Gulden mentions? There now there is!:beerme:

[akron3344]

Wayne Krenchicki for Paul Moskau was a cataclysmic trade. Brad Gulden and MIke O'Berry and Damon Berryhill were epic

[LouisvilleCARDS]

I agree with some of the other posters. We lose out big bat in the lineup in Dunn, of course. We don't have a replacement for his power. But then again, no Patterson or Griffey in the lineup - who were there most of last year. Second season for Bruce. Another year for Votto. And there's always the hope that Encarnacion turns it around and becomes more consistent. Hernandez in a new environment may be much better than with the O's. At least he's still better at the plate than the .200 trio of Bako, Ross, and Valentine.

I'm not giving up on the offene yet. Obviously a lot more production has to come from within with some of the young guys, but I think it can be done.

[ChatterRed]

The offense will be better than people think it will be. And the pitching will be one of the better ones in mlb. I really believe that. Alot of guys are coming into their prime and have had a few years to adjust and learn the league. It's about time that we start to see the best from some of these guys.

[roby]

Yes I have!

The man had problems with the attention Hamilton and Jr recieved during his run to 30-30. He rubbed many journalists (C. Trent and Hal) wrong with his actions after games. Last season in San Fran after he had struggled for about a month, he wouldn't talk to reporters after a 2 HR game because they had ignored him while he struggled. He says he wants to be a leader, yet his actions on the field don't lead me to believe that. They way acts and runs after hitting HR's is saying, "Hey look at me." His game at the plate seems to be driven by stats instead of playing the team game. All too many times he swings and misses at a 1st pitch slider away after a teammate walks, or he hits into a 1st pitch DP and doesn't run hard to 1st. It shows me that he's not mature enough to handle the highs and lows of the game.

I think he's a ultra-talented player that has the skills to be an all time great with his speed, power, defense combination... but I haven't seen it translate. And I think the Chad Johnson comparison is right... As long as things are good and BP is in the news and not Jr and Hammy (or soon to be Jay and Joey) he'll be fine, when things are bad the guy pouts like my 3 year old!

Just for the record, I was NOT comparing Phillips with Chad. I was saying that youmay be confusing one with the other. Brandon is far more balanced and team-oriented than Chad. He works with the young players, often passes a compliment of himself off...giving credit to another player, etc. Just because Johnson and Phillips are both outgoing, doesn't mean they are alike in other ways.

[Nasty_Boy]

Chad was team oriented until things went wrong. Phillips can change my opinion this season by the way he handles failure and losing, because I see more of that than the good times this season. He may change and prove me wrong, but my opinion of him now is a talented guy that wants people to notice him and he has a hard time when he's ignored.

[fourrunhomer]

If Harrang bounces back and Arroyo avoids the slow start this will be the best starting 5 the reds have put on the field in almost 2 decades and we have maybe the worst offense in that same time frame.

This offense has the potential to equal that of the Paul Householder and Eddie Milner regime.

The young guys are going to have to have career years to compete in what is the second worst division in baseball. Letas just hope Walt can spin Harrang, Arroyo and Phillips for some uber prospects at the deadline. Then we can start saying wait till 2012 in stead of wait for 2010.

This has the potential to be one of our best offenses in several years. I believe the HRs will actually increase over last year. Plus, they will get on base at a significantly higher rate, thus more runs scored. Not to mention, there will be far fewer runners erased from stupid mistakes.

[mlh1981]

We have a lot of young guys who can, and probably will, improve, we have some vets like Phillips who will probably bounce back, and will undoubtedly have better hitting at CF, C, and SS this year. I don't see the problem. I am mad that we didn't get another bat, but sometimes, it's better to go with what you have than to overpay someone and put them in a position in which they can't succeed (for instance, Bobby Abreu isn't and shouldn't be a team leader). Let the young guys figure out their roles and grow into them.

[Nasty_Boy]

This has the potential to be one of our best offenses in several years. I believe the HRs will actually increase over last year. Plus, they will get on base at a significantly higher rate, thus more runs scored. Not to mention, there will be far fewer runners erased from stupid mistakes.

What evidence supports this? You lose the top HR and OB man. You lose a few HRs but gain a few OB points in CF. Bruce could be a big improvement over Jr, but he may be about the same. If Gonzo is at SS, you lose some OBP but maybe gain some power... But I doubt he's a shadow of his former self.

This offense can be better than last seasons, but that isn't saying much. We need Bruce, Edwin, and BP to all improve signifcantly while hoping that Votto doesn't regress and Willy somehow reverts to the Colorad 97 game form of 2007. Hernandez and Hanigan will almost certainly be better, but the only thing that is close to being a sure bet is Arroyo will throw 200 innings. It's tough to count on youth to carry a team.

[JoshFogg]

It is depressing that Francisco Rodriguez makes as much per season as Francisco Cordero. When, Francisco Rodriguez is 2X the closer CO CO is.

[RedsFanWC]

The offense will be better than people think it will be. And the pitching will be one of the better ones in mlb. I really believe that. Alot of guys are coming into their prime and have had a few years to adjust and learn the league. It's about time that we start to see the best from some of these guys.

I agree that the offense will be better than people think. I find that most people are counting on a bounceback year for Harang and at the same time they are writing off the offensive vets who had bad years in 2008 (like Taveras).

Compare the 07 vs 08 OPS numbers for the following guys in camp:
Willy Taveras (749 ops in 2007 vs 604 ops in 2008)
Jonny Gomes (782 ops vs 665 ops)
Brandon Phillips (816 ops vs 754 ops)
Alex Gonzalez (793 ops vs DNP)
Ramon Hernandez (715 ops vs 714 ops - 822 ops in 06)
Jeff Keppinger (877 ops vs 656 ops)
Daryle Ward (963 ops vs 721 ops)
Jacque Jones (735 ops vs 446 ops - 833 ops in 06)

I dont believe that all of these guys will bounceback, but I wouldnt be surpised if a lot of them do. If these guys play like 07, and Votto, Bruce, EE, Dickerson, Hairston and Hanigan play like 08, this offense will score plenty of runs