Ghost in the grove at Gettysburg?

[savafan]

On July 4th, my fiancee Erin and I took a ghost tour to the Grove at Gettysburg. When we were there last year, our guide had told us to not enter the Grove. This time, the guide did allow us to enter. While in there, he told us of a story about a ghost that had been seen there recently. It was the spirit of a 13 year old girl named Elizabeth. She was a mentally disturbed girl who wandered away from home shortly after the war, traumatized by the fighting that had occurred there, and committed suicide. Our guide reported that he had seen her on two occasions. The first time, he shined his flashlight on her, and she hissed at him while moving her body into a lunging position. The second time he said she was seen while he told a group the story about his first encounter, and this time, she was just pacing back and forth in the woods behind him.

Erin and I had already been planning on going out later that night on our own to explore the area. It was Erin's idea to go out around dead time (3:00 AM). We went down to the grove, and as I approached the woods, something inside the trees threw something at me. Erin ran and refused to go in any further. I snapped some photos, which I just now looked at.

If you look at the pictures, you can see the shape of what appears to be a woman in spectral form, somewhat skeletal in appearance.

[Highlifeman21]

It's like Blair Witch Project meets Gettysburg

[LoganBuck]

Looked at one, not looking at the rest. Unsettling.

[Dom Heffner]

If, in death, I end up roaming through the woods for hundreds of years scaring ghost seekers, I'm going to be pretty disappointed.

Maybe it's because I believe there is no such thing as ghosts, but I don't see a thing.

[forfreelin04]

Sava,

I used to give Ghost Tours in Charleston, SC. I can tell you from experience that half the stories are made up. Personally, I loved it when someone thought they had something on their camera. That made the tips roll in! That is not say I'm a total non-believer. I've just been in enough situations to know; people see what they want to.

Furthermore, I read through the story about the girl's suicide. That certainly sounds like a ghost tour fabrication. We told a story about how Castle Pinckney in Charleston Harbor burnt to the ground killing all inside during the Civil War. We told the tour that the soldiers staying there we're burning alive and throwing themselves into the harbor only to feel the sting of salt! And then we would say, "you could smell the burning flesh from the lavish homes in Battery Parl." It was the most elaborate and detailed story we had. The truth was Castle Pinckney did burn to the ground, but in the 1950's, and no one was inside when it happened. In fact, the only thing signficant about Castle Pinckney was the fact it was taken by the Confederates before Fort Sumter. The Union troops moved from the island to Fort Sumter for better protection.

Truthfully, the only reason we took people out there was to ensure they got a nice breeze in July coming off the ocean.

It would stand to reason that this grove you speak of is probably just a nice place to tell a great story. If it's not historically backed up, I wouldn't believe it.

[savafan]

Sava,

I used to give Ghost Tours in Charleston, SC. I can tell you from experience that half the stories are made up. Personally, I loved it when someone thought they had something on their camera. That made the tips roll in! That is not say I'm a total non-believer. I've just been in enough situations to know; people see what they want to.

I've been ghosthunting for years. I don't want to come off as a kook, but I've had encounters with spirits, and moreso with demonic entities. I didn't want to believe for a long time, in fact I try to be as skeptical as possible, but I've experienced too much. Maybe there is nothing there in the photo, but something did throw something at me from in the woods.

For the record, I was wearing a Union slouch hat entering an area that was occupied by Confederate soldiers 146 years ago.

[Yachtzee]

Well, in the video game thread, we've got some guys working on their ghostbusting techniques, so maybe they should check it out. :)

[dougdirt]

If, in death, I end up roaming through the woods for hundreds of years scaring ghost seekers, I'm going to be pretty disappointed.

Maybe it's because I believe there is no such thing as ghosts, but I don't see a thing.

It seems lots of people don't believe in ghosts until they experience something. My best friend used to always give me crap.... until he lived in Arizona for 6 months. He didn't believe in any God or after life or anything before he moved out there. After his experiences in the house he lived in, he is certainly a believer now.

[savafan]

I also managed to capture this image during the daylight while hiking Big Round Top. It resembles the image of a soldier. Don't know how to explain it. I know it wasn't a tree.

[BuckeyeRedleg]

Looks like possibly a brown leaf hanging from that tree right by you. It doesn't look like the image is far away depth-wise. When you zoom in on it, of course it looks a little weird, but I think based on that first picture that it's just a leaf.

Now those night pictures at the beginning of this thread, I have no idea.

[reds1869]

I grew up in a Victorian era house and that will make a believer of anyone. Crazy, crazy things happened to me as a child and teenager. I always wondered if I was crazy until my wife-to-be was visiting my parents (I had told none of them of my encounters) experienced the exact same presences I had growing up. I was comfortably asleep 2,500 miles away in California and had not warned her what was in store if she slept alone in my bedroom. It unsettled here, and she was far from a believer. She is, in fact, a die hard atheist and skeptic. But she believes in her experiences and they continue to this day in the same location, though they no longer unsettle her as much.

Are ghosts real? No one can say conclusively What I can tell you is that I can walk into a location and give you a fairly accurate portrayal of those who have lived there and events that have occurred there. I can not explain my ability but it is certainly there and it is something I've grown comfortable with. The only downside is that people always want to take me to old, decrepit buildings and have me tell a story. The truth is, what I have for them is just usually not that interesting, much like everyday life. When a "psychic" or "parapsychologist" has a wild yarn for everything I get suspicious. It doesn't fit with my own very real encounters and I get suspicious that they are just milking it for money.

I have been to many civil war battlefields. Sava, I don't know what you encountered but let me say I've had some chilling experiences. Now, proceed to call for my straight jacket folks. :)

Edit: I agree with BuckeyeRedleg about the pictures.

[GAC]

If, in death, I end up roaming through the woods for hundreds of years scaring ghost seekers, I'm going to be pretty disappointed.

Maybe it's because I believe there is no such thing as ghosts, but I don't see a thing.

I agree. I don't see squat.

Does anybody else have a Cry Baby Bridge where you live? You know - the story where a mother left her baby on a railroad bridge, and it died, and at night you can hear the baby crying. We seem to have several of them. :p:

[savafan]

Looks like possibly a brown leaf hanging from that tree right by you. It doesn't look like the image is far away depth-wise. When you zoom in on it, of course it looks a little weird, but I think based on that first picture that it's just a leaf.



It may be a brown leaf. That was my first thought as well, but then I thought that if it was just a brown leaf, then why don't I see any other brown leaves besides just that one in the entire section of forest?

[Ltlabner]

It may be a brown leaf. That was my first thought as well, but then I thought that if it was just a brown leaf, then why don't I see any other brown leaves besides just that one in the entire section of forest?

Because a squirrel broke a small branch causing it to die?

Because a recent thunderstorm caused that branch to break causing it to die and turn brown?

Because the tree has recently been infected with some sort of insect and that's the first branch to die?

Could be any number of explanations. I have singular dead branches in a number of my trees. Not sure why.

ETA: Even if it's not a dead leaf/branch in the tree, it doesn't look anything like a dead union trooper to me.

[BuckeyeRedleg]

It may be a brown leaf. That was my first thought as well, but then I thought that if it was just a brown leaf, then why don't I see any other brown leaves besides just that one in the entire section of forest?


It looks like you took two pictures, right?

If so, what caused you to take two pictures of trees and brush or did you think you saw something weird in the first place?

I'm just trying to figure out if you were looking for something when you took the pictures or just later noticed it when you got the pics developed. If you noticed it later, I'm still wondering why you took two pictures of the same thing (from slightly different angles).

[cumberlandreds]

In the first set of pictures I don't see a thing. They are just black to me. In 2nd set,I'm not sure what it is. It could be a leaf like someone else said or something else. I have never experienced a ghost or haunting but I leave open the possiblity that things like that do happen. Me and my wife have visited Gettysburg a couple of times. One time when driving around the park late, about dusk, my wife said she got a really eery feeling when we passed some spring (I don't remember the name). She said she felt like if there were spirits there they were in that spot. It did look kind of creepy in that area but I didn't sense anything other than that. I've been wanting to go back since its been a long time since the last time we were there for any legth of time. May have to pay a visit soon. I only live about 1 1/2 hours from Gettysburg.
The History Channel shows The Ghost of Gettysburg every so often. There are two shows of ghost stories and some pretty chilling tales of peoples experiences with them that live in that area.
Thanks for sharing those SAVA. I find these experiences of people with ghosts fascinating.

[The Operator]

My favorite haunted spot is the road in Oxford near Miami University where you can pull over, blink 3 times, and then a dead motorcyclist will start driving toward you. Supposedly a long time ago a cyclist hit a little boy on a bike while on a night time trip to see his girlfriend whose parents forbid them to date, perfect haunted love story, ehh? You see the headlight, then the reflectors of the little boy's bike.

It actually DOES work, but I'm convinced that it's just a car coming down a distant hill, bright lights on, which from a distance appear as one headlight... and then I'm guessing it makes a turn, where the breaklights become "reflectors". (I have noticed once or twice the headlight seems to become two headlights the closer it gets, leading to my car theory). But, as I said, it DOES work and makes for a fun night, especially when you're bored.


As far as other stuff is concerned, I usually go out of my way NOT to have any kind of encounter with spirits or anything like that. Part of me does believe in that stuff, part of me doesn't. I'd rather keep it that way.

I did have one odd experience as a kid though. I was walking on my dad's back (he had a bad back and I was maybe 35 pounds at the time) in our basement, and as I looked up to the ceiling, I saw a whitish cloud/mass go IN an HVAC SUPPLY vent while the A/C was on!

At first I thought maybe it was smoke from one of dad's cigarrettes, but then I later realized that it was a supply vent and the air was on. My theory might have held water had that vent been to a return duct. It kinda creeped me out.

[Orodle]

I also managed to capture this image during the daylight while hiking Big Round Top. It resembles the image of a soldier. Don't know how to explain it. I know it wasn't a tree.

looks like a brown rag in a tree to me

[HotCorner]

The brown thing reminds me of a jawa's cloak.

http://www.rocketfettscollection.com/swchpics/jawa.jpg

[minus5]

I've been ghosthunting for years.

Been hunting and studying for years myself (since 1977 or so), pretty interesting stuff out there. I do think that the one pic looks like something hanging in the tree.

[pahster]

It seems lots of people don't believe in ghosts until they experience something. My best friend used to always give me crap.... until he lived in Arizona for 6 months. He didn't believe in any God or after life or anything before he moved out there. After his experiences in the house he lived in, he is certainly a believer now.

If your friend lived anywhere near Phoenix, I bet he just saw an old person. ;)

That brown thing looks like either a leaf or a bat to me, Sava.

[jimbo]

I agree. I don't see squat.

Does anybody else have a Cry Baby Bridge where you live? You know - the story where a mother left her baby on a railroad bridge, and it died, and at night you can hear the baby crying. We seem to have several of them. :p:

We have one just outside of Troy. My friend's parents used to own the house and property right next to it, and they told me there were several times they had to run people off their land late at night who were trying experience the crying baby. They lived there for over 10 years and never heard a thing.

[GIDP]

I also managed to capture this image during the daylight while hiking Big Round Top. It resembles the image of a soldier. Don't know how to explain it. I know it wasn't a tree.

HAHA are you kidding me? You have to be joking with this one :laugh:

[GIDP]

Id say double digits of people have died in my home before, and the only thing I hear or see at night is cars driving past my house.

My home is over 150 years old.

[The Operator]

I do believe that some people see things, though.

My personal opinion is that ghosts and things like that are probably all demonic forces masquerading as whatever it is the person is seeing or encountering. For those who don't encounter them, they probably aren't seen as a vulnerable (or usable) target to whatever it is. But that's getting pretty close to a religious discussion so I won't divulge much further.

I know people who claim to have seen things, though. A friend of my brother had an uncle commit suicide in their house, and ever since that time all kinds of odd things happened in that place. They would see light phenomena float through the house. Windows would mysteriously open. Walls of empty rooms would be tapped on, stuff like that. I've never experienced anything like that, and I can say for sure that I don't ever want to.

[Dom Heffner]

This stuff makes for good stories, but I could never be convinced.

It's fun to be scared, an altogether different thing to acutally believe any of this is true.

My Mother is really into this stuff, and we give each other grief back and forth.

I always like where people see the ghost wearing clothes. What determines what outfit the ghost is wearing?

How does one become a ghost? Once you are a ghost, do you ever stop being a ghost?

And- do you really just hang around the same places making noises for eternity?

[reds1869]

This stuff makes for good stories, but I could never be convinced.

It's fun to be scared, an altogether different thing to acutally believe any of this is true.

My Mother is really into this stuff, and we give each other grief back and forth.

I always like where people see the ghost wearing clothes. What determines what outfit the ghost is wearing?

How does one become a ghost? Once you are a ghost, do you ever stop being a ghost?

And- do you really just hang around the same places making noises for eternity?

Let me first say I'm a believer. Not one of the ones like you see on TV, but someone who tried not to believe but experience told me otherwise. That said, I'm not sure ghosts are spirtis/demons, etc. I think there is quite possibly a natural explanation for them, or that there is some part of some of our brains stuck in a different stage of evolution. It is also possible that they are spirts, and it is of course very possible they aren't there at all. I'm open to anything...when someone says they could never be convinced one way or another, that is a very closed minded and unscientific position. Here is an excellent article on just that topic.

http://skeptoid.com/episode.php?id=4134&comments=all

[wolfboy]

Id say double digits of people have died in my home before, and the only thing I hear or see at night is cars driving past my house.

My home is over 150 years old.

Double digits? So someone dies in your home roughly every 15 years? I hope you haven't been there for long. :eek:

[RBA]

Nonsense!

[GIDP]

Double digits? So someone dies in your home roughly every 15 years? I hope you haven't been there for long. :eek:

My house is a former doctors office.

[Spitball]

The Cresent Hotel in Eureka Springs, Arkansas, is pretty famous for ghost sightings. We went there last October and though I didn't see any ghosts, a buddy of mine showed me a weird configuration on the digital screen of his camera. He would take a picture but it wouldn't show up.

These are not my photographs so I can't claim they are real.

http://www.crescent-hotel.com/ghosts/photos.htm

In the 1930s, a man named Norman Baker used the building as a cancer ward. He advertised miracle cures but was really in it to make money. He would have patients write a series of letters when they would first arrive. He would then mail them to the patients' homes on a weekly basis after the patients would die. This technique made it possible to keep billing the hopeful families.

[CrackerJack]

Been hunting and studying for years myself (since 1977 or so), pretty interesting stuff out there. I do think that the one pic looks like something hanging in the tree.

Me too, pretty hardcore stuff also, mostly private homeowners and businesses, dozens of them over the last 5 years. I treat it pretty confidentially since I'm in a sort of visible professional position where I work, but suffice to say, there's a lot of things happening all around us we don't yet understand....not that that isn't obvious. People have real problems with this stuff.

Separating fact from fictional stories and whatnot is always the hard part.

I live in an historic Victorian home, built in the late 1800's, I NEVER believed in "ghosts," until I experienced things here for the last 3+ years.

Photos are never really good evidence or convincing at all, at least video provides some frame of reference other than a split second capture of something. You'll capture things in the IR spectrum, as well, that you won't see with the light your eyes are able to see naturally, flying all around you if it's an "active" spot. It's pretty freaky stuff until you get used to it.

[dougdirt]

My favorite haunted spot is the road in Oxford near Miami University where you can pull over, blink 3 times, and then a dead motorcyclist will start driving toward you. Supposedly a long time ago a cyclist hit a little boy on a bike while on a night time trip to see his girlfriend whose parents forbid them to date, perfect haunted love story, ehh? You see the headlight, then the reflectors of the little boy's bike.

It actually DOES work, but I'm convinced that it's just a car coming down a distant hill, bright lights on, which from a distance appear as one headlight... and then I'm guessing it makes a turn, where the breaklights become "reflectors". (I have noticed once or twice the headlight seems to become two headlights the closer it gets, leading to my car theory). But, as I said, it DOES work and makes for a fun night, especially when you're bored.

You want to be freaked out? Take several people with you. Have them get at different stages of the road and all be on the phone at the same time (three way calling). Flash your lights. You won't see the light coming down the road unless you are at the end of it (at least from my experience). The people on the road up ahead won't see the light at all (again, from my experience... done it three times. Same results every time).

[MrCinatit]

We have one just outside of Troy. My friend's parents used to own the house and property right next to it, and they told me there were several times they had to run people off their land late at night who were trying experience the crying baby. They lived there for over 10 years and never heard a thing.

There is one around Covington, as well - a covered bridge that was also supposedly "Devil worship central". I grew up around there, and visited the old bridge quite a bit. Never heard a baby, saw a ghost or ran into a devil worshipper.
Did run into a guy later who admitted he and his brother painted stuff on the bridge in attempts to heighten the "Devil worshipping" legend.

I also live in a house that is almost 200 years old. I've never seen or heard a suspicious thing.

And, I did take a look at one of the night photos. Honestly, I really didn't see that much, even when looking at it under different brightnesses.


I have always wondered one thing, though: Why do ghosts take their cloths with them to the afterlife? I can almost rationalize a the human mind being a dimensional entity in itself which has occasion to want to return to its old, physical world (almost rationalize...but never enough to buy into it).
But how would it manifest the cloths? That is not part of the "spirit". And how does it chose what it wants to wear?
I'm a ghost, you're seeing me without pants.

[savafan]

It looks like you took two pictures, right?

If so, what caused you to take two pictures of trees and brush or did you think you saw something weird in the first place?

I'm just trying to figure out if you were looking for something when you took the pictures or just later noticed it when you got the pics developed. If you noticed it later, I'm still wondering why you took two pictures of the same thing (from slightly different angles).

I was taking random pictures of the wall area. There was also a rock overhang, not actually a deep cave, but a little rocky inlet in the area that I was shooting pictures of, just because Joshua Lawrence Chamberlain of the 20th Maine who fought at Little Round Top is my personal hero, and I wanted images of the area. It was only later when I put the pictures on the computer that I noticed the images.

[Dom Heffner]

when someone says they could never be convinced one way or another, that is a very closed minded and unscientific position.

I could never be convinced the tooth fairy is real. Am I closed minded? ;)

In all seriousness, I can certainly clarify my earlier statement and say that I could not be convinced without scientific proof, and good luck getting some of that to me.

Photos and eyewitness accounts regarding this type of thing are as useful as a fork in tomato soup.

And all the believers ever offer up is that they know someone, they saw it themselves, or here's a picture.

[savafan]

There are times when I wonder if it is actually spirits that I'm experiencing, or an energy source left over from a different time, or perhaps alternate dimension. Energy remains after death of all organisms. Perhaps it is possible that in a place where 15,000 people died, there is enough energy still left over to manifest?

[GIDP]

or its nothing

[savafan]

or its nothing

You can believe what you want, but trying to antagonize me on an internet message board isn't going to make you seem cooler in the real world. ;)

[GIDP]

You can believe what you want, but trying to antagonize me on an internet message board isn't going to make you seem cooler in the real world. ;)

Im not the one that thought a dead leaf is some union soldier in some star wars cloak or something.

Or think that some white stuff taken by a camera which has glass, been in your hands all day, and uses a flash is a skeletal woman instead of just some smudge, or the flash reflecting off something out of focus.

I guess I just have to look at it from a "the least likely option" for us to see the same thing.

[Fon Duc Tow]

And all the believers ever offer up is that they know someone, they saw it themselves, or here's a picture.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

If ghosts existed, by now there would at least be a shred of proof. But the "proof" now is the same as the "proof" has always been.

Grainy out of focus pictures, and word of mouth.

The difference with me is I WANT to believe. But approaching it scientifically, it just simply does not hold water.

But you'll never talk a "believer" out of what he/she thinks. Think how many people believe that a bearded white dude talks to them in their minds and has promised them all sorts of goodies after they die.

And why should you talk anyone out of it. "Whatever gets you through the night, it's alright." :thumbup:

[savafan]

This video was shot near the same area I was at.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UovBlbzzwlE

[Dom Heffner]

I saw a grainy film of bigfoot once.

The people who shot it eventually fessed up that they staged it.

Normally either staged or some natural occurance that can be explained once analyzed.

[pedro]

I saw a grainy film of bigfoot once.

The people who shot it eventually fessed up that they staged it.

Normally either staged or some natural occurance that can be explained once analyzed.

If you're talking about the patterson film from 1967 they haven't to my knowledge actually admitted to a hoax.

http://bloggingexperiments.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/patterson_bigfoot.jpg

[GIDP]

So that possibly couldnt be car lights, or something below that little cliff that is there.

[savafan]

Normally either staged or some natural occurance that can be explained once analyzed.

I don't need scientific proof that spirits exist, because I've witnessed enough. Most of it benign, but some of it actually quite frightening. I didn't really believe until I experienced, which happened to me at a young age and has continued throughout my life. I'm not the only one. Being knocked around by unseen forces, having marks on my body, seeing objects move across a room...I don't need a theorem or formula to tell me these things exist because I've witnessed them. If you ever do, you'll believe too, but I won't mock you now for not believing.

[CrackerJack]

Couldn't have said it better myself.

If ghosts existed, by now there would at least be a shred of proof. But the "proof" now is the same as the "proof" has always been.

Grainy out of focus pictures, and word of mouth.

The difference with me is I WANT to believe. But approaching it scientifically, it just simply does not hold water.

But you'll never talk a "believer" out of what he/she thinks. Think how many people believe that a bearded white dude talks to them in their minds and has promised them all sorts of goodies after they die.

And why should you talk anyone out of it. "Whatever gets you through the night, it's alright." :thumbup:

I have plenty of evidence, but I'm not just going to post it in a place like this so people with no experience or knowledge can just rip me apart. :) And the traditional notion of "ghosts" is completely off-base, apparitions are extremely rare and no one has managed to catch a full, clear one (close) during reputable investigations from reputable groups.

There's plenty of evidence out there - unfortunately you just have to sift through the garbage to get to the good stuff, and there's a LOT of garbage.

My experiences here and in all of the dozens of homes I've been to in the Cincy area alone have changed my life and my outlook on our reality, it's the most eye-opening, amazing thing you can imagine, that you don't have to read in a book. These are doctors, business owners, teachers, lawyers, little old ladies, nuns, people from all walks of life and occupations, there is no discrimination, and their experiences are very real and in some cases, quite frightening and hard on their family. Many move or leave their homes if it's tied to the property. Others feel better just having some validation and people help them understand how to deal with it.

I don't really recommend this show per se, but watch the season premiere of "Ghost Hunters International" tonight on Sci-Fi at 9pm, they run the hour long episodes from 7-midnight EST. They go to Europe and around the world investigating - it's unfortunate they're complete tools and never find much though - they just aren't very good at it. But maybe it'll help, the Ghost Hunters series is a good one to watch if you're new to this stuff, ecspecially if you're more of a skeptic like I once was, I don't not blame someone for being that way until they experience or see something - it takes more than one incident usually.

[savafan]

So that possibly couldnt be car lights, or something below that little cliff that is there.

Ever been to Gettysburg GIDP? That's no where near a road.

[GIDP]

Ever been to Gettysburg GIDP? That's no where near a road.

I havent been there but I can tell there is a hill, and its likely video'ed by someone looking for ghost or have some sort of money investment in the video.

[CrackerJack]

This video was shot near the same area I was at.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UovBlbzzwlE

One of my favorites, residual figures disappearing into nothing and reappearing etc...,

Unfortunately taken by a bunch of kids who no one knows, with no credibility or reputation. :)

These aren't actual "ghosts," likely an imprint, how it works and why it happens is still something we can't answer yet.

[Highlifeman21]

I also managed to capture this image during the daylight while hiking Big Round Top. It resembles the image of a soldier. Don't know how to explain it. I know it wasn't a tree.

Did you get any closer?

Hard to say what is in the tree

[gilpdawg]

I agree. I don't see squat.

Does anybody else have a Cry Baby Bridge where you live? You know - the story where a mother left her baby on a railroad bridge, and it died, and at night you can hear the baby crying. We seem to have several of them. :p:
Yep, there's one about 3 or 4 miles from my childhood home in Indiana as well.

[Dom Heffner]

Being knocked around by unseen forces, having marks on my body, seeing objects move across a room...I don't need a theorem or formula to tell me these things exist because I've witnessed them. If you ever do, you'll believe too, but I won't mock you now for not believing.


I don't think I've mocked you here have I?

[Dom Heffner]

If you're talking about the patterson film from 1967 they haven't to my knowledge actually admitted to a hoax.


I wasn't referring to this one- I believe the man who made the one you are referring to died in 1972, though there's a pretty strong case it's a hoax.

The dude decides to film a bigfoot documentary and - oh my- finds a bigfoot, in broad daylight on the very first day of shooting.

Afterwards, he went to Vegas where he won billions of dollars in one pull of the slot machine.

[Dom Heffner]

I don't need scientific proof that spirits exist, because I've witnessed enough. Most of it benign, but some of it actually quite frightening. I didn't really believe until I experienced, which happened to me at a young age and has continued throughout my life. I'm not the only one. Being knocked around by unseen forces, having marks on my body, seeing objects move across a room...I don't need a theorem or formula to tell me these things exist because I've witnessed them. If you ever do, you'll believe too, but I won't mock you now for not believing.

You know, upon further reflection, this is sort of a clever post: Let me tell you how all these rare and ghostly things happen to me- I mean, it's not a stretch to call this outrageous- and then I'm going to take the high road and dare you to make fun of me because I would never make fun of you for not believing what is a pretty large leap of faith.

Thomas Jefferson used to say what admitted to no reason deserved only ridicule.

Perhaps he was right.

[savafan]

I don't think I've mocked you here have I?

Nope, not yet...

Cue next post...

[savafan]

You know, upon further reflection, this is sort of a clever post: Let me tell you how all these rare and ghostly things happen to me- I mean, it's not a stretch to call this outrageous- and then I'm going to take the high road and dare you to make fun of me because I would never make fun of you for not believing what is a pretty large leap of faith.

Thomas Jefferson used to say what admitted to no reason deserved only ridicule.

Perhaps he was right.

We take a lot of things on a leap of faith. We take it on faith that the sun will come up tomorrow just because it did today. We take it on faith that our car will get us to where we're going because it always has. We take it on faith that when we go to bed at night, we'll wake up tomorrow morning. They're all large leaps of faith, and someday they won't happen. Doesn't mean we have to give up believing in them. :)

[GIDP]

We take a lot of things on a leap of faith. We take it on faith that the sun will come up tomorrow just because it did today. We take it on faith that our car will get us to where we're going because it always has. We take it on faith that when we go to bed at night, we'll wake up tomorrow morning. They're all large leaps of faith, and someday they won't happen. Doesn't mean we have to give up believing in them. :)

I hope you know the sun doesnt just come up.

[Dom Heffner]

We take it on faith that the sun will come up tomorrow just because it did today.

This is observable science. And if the sun did not rise in the East, science would change its position on the subject.


We take it on faith that our car will get us to where we're going because it always has.

Again, this is observable, repeated behavior. Science.


We take it on faith that when we go to bed at night, we'll wake up tomorrow morning.

Third scientific observation.

To take these everyday occurences and compare them to beings from another dimension crossing into our world and physically moving objects is quite a leap indeed.

[gilpdawg]

My favorite haunted spot is the road in Oxford near Miami University where you can pull over, blink 3 times, and then a dead motorcyclist will start driving toward you. Supposedly a long time ago a cyclist hit a little boy on a bike while on a night time trip to see his girlfriend whose parents forbid them to date, perfect haunted love story, ehh? You see the headlight, then the reflectors of the little boy's bike.

It actually DOES work, but I'm convinced that it's just a car coming down a distant hill, bright lights on, which from a distance appear as one headlight... and then I'm guessing it makes a turn, where the breaklights become "reflectors". (I have noticed once or twice the headlight seems to become two headlights the closer it gets, leading to my car theory). But, as I said, it DOES work and makes for a fun night, especially when you're bored.



I've been to that spot. It looks like just a reflection or shadow to me. There is some sort of optical illusion thing going on in that spot though. I know a guy who claims the guy on the motorcycle chased him when he walked down by the bridge, but I'm quite dubious about that, I wasn't there that time, and the only time we ever went down there was when we were drinking. I haven't been there since I was in high school, and I'm not even sure I can remember where exactly it is, as I was new to the area at the time, and I never drove there, just rode with other people.

[gilpdawg]

In the 1930s, a man named Norman Baker used the building as a cancer ward. He advertised miracle cures but was really in it to make money. He would have patients write a series of letters when they would first arrive. He would then mail them to the patients' homes on a weekly basis after the patients would die. This technique made it possible to keep billing the hopeful families.
Wow, what a scumbag.

[*BaseClogger*]

Does anybody have a more detailed description of this location in Oxford? Never heard of it before...

[gilpdawg]

Does anybody have a more detailed description of this location in Oxford? Never heard of it before...
I know it's near Hueston Woods. I think it's on a road that turns off of Ohio 725 but I could be wrong. Also, I forgot to mention above, that when I've been there "the light" never goes away. That's why I think it's some sort of optical illusion or shadow or reflection. If it was a "car in the distance" like the other poster said, the light would eventually disappear, because the car would be gone, so either I'm seeing something totally different, or we're talking about two different places. :D


Edited to add-It's called Milford Road, according to this link. I think you actually turn off Ohio 177 on to Earhart Rd, which turns into Oxford-Milford Rd. Which makes sense, because according to Google Maps Earhart Rd. isn't a 90 degree turn off the main road, and then turns left and changes into another road, which is consistent with what I remember. So that's where it is.
http://www.ohioexploration.com/butlercounty.htm

[gilpdawg]

The area I'm referencing in my previous post is right in this area.

http://maps.google.com/maps?q=39.559158,-84.70273&sll=39.626582,-84.712486&sspn=0.062935,0.110378&ie=UTF8&ll=39.550912,-84.712486&spn=0.063004,0.110378&z=13

[The Operator]

Does anybody have a more detailed description of this location in Oxford? Never heard of it before...It's on Oxford-Milford Road.

A more detailed description:
http://www.yourghoststories.com/real-ghost-story.php?story=38

Edit: Looks like gilpdawg beat me by a minute. :-p

[*BaseClogger*]

Oxford-Milford Road is US-27, is it not?

[gilpdawg]

Oxford-Milford Road is US-27, is it not?

No, that's Oxford-Millville. This road runs between Ohio 73 and 177 east of Oxford.

[*BaseClogger*]

No, that's Oxford-Millville. This road runs between Ohio 73 and 177 east of Oxford.

Wow. Some more original road names would be appreciated! :D

I'll have to check this out when I have some free time at school...

[gilpdawg]

Wow. Some more original road names would be appreciated! :D


Yeah, I hate that. Near where I live there's 4 or 5 roads with the name "Gettysburg" in them. And for some reason, there's two places with the name Gettysburg, OH. The one most people would know off US 36 in Darke County and a place called that off US 40 in Preble County near my place which has about 7 people living there. So, not only are the roads named dumbly, they can't even name the towns right without repeating themselves, and the two Gettysburges are only 29 miles apart by road. Makes zero sense.

[RBA]

I went to Disneyland and I could swear they had a mansion that was full of ghost. I don't have proof because the cast members told us that photography was prohibited.

And on the scientific evidence, every time we went into the mansion there were ghost. So it was reoccurring observable scientific.

[wolfboy]

I went to Disneyland and I could swear they had a mansion that was full of ghost. I don't have proof because the cast members told us that photography was prohibited.

And on the scientific evidence, every time we went into the mansion there were ghost. So it was reoccurring observable scientific.

Strange, I encountered the same thing in Disneyworld. :yikes:

[nate]

Strange, I encountered the same thing in Disneyworld. :yikes:

I saw it too!

[cumberlandreds]

Strange, I encountered the same thing in Disneyworld. :yikes:

It must be a long term haunting. I encountered ghosts there nearly 30 year ago. ;)

[Johnny Footstool]

These aren't actual "ghosts,"

Agreed.


...likely an imprint,

Or some people in the woods with sheets.


...how it works and why it happens is still something we can't answer yet.

You drink a couple of beers, and walk around in the "haunted" woods at twilight with a sheet. When you see a group of people observing from a distance, you put the sheet over your head, then you poke your head in and out of the woods for a few minutes. Then you run home and laugh...

[durl]

Regarding the first post, it appears to be tree bark in the picture. And I might have an explanation for stuff being being thrown out from the trees. My favorite restaurant has a deck outside and several large trees surrounding it that form a canopy. It's not unusual, at night, for bark and leaves to drop onto tables. We assume it's because of squirrels moving around along the branches.

[OnBaseMachine]

Baseball teams fear 'haunted' Milwaukee hotel
add this RSS blog email print
Updated: July 10, 2009, 4:50 PM EDT 22 comments

MILWAUKEE (AP) - First Carlos Gomez heard voices. Then he watched his iPod go haywire after he got out of the shower, sending him scrambling for the lobby without stopping to put on his pants and shoes.

After last year's experience, the Minnesota Twins outfielder didn't want to go back to Milwaukee's Pfister Hotel. But Gomez had to stay there when the Twins were in town to play the Brewers last month, so he brought some protection: teammate-turned-roommate Francisco Liriano and a Bible.

"Everything's scary," Gomez said. "Everything in the hotel, the paintings and pictures, it's a lot of old, crazy stuff. No good, man. No good."

The Pfister is Milwaukee's most regal address, having hosted every U.S. president since William McKinley and scores of celebrities who can take a self-guided tour of the hotel's Victorian art collection. Today, it's the place to stay for upscale business travelers and out-of-town visitors, including many Major League Baseball teams. Commissioner Bud Selig, a Milwaukee native, is a frequent visitor.

But some players don't care for the 116-year-old hotel's posh accommodations and reputation for privacy. They swear it's haunted.

Gomez, San Francisco's Pablo Sandoval, St. Louis' Brendan Ryan and several Florida Marlins all say they've had odd experiences, though Ryan later said nothing really happened. Others aren't willing to talk publicly about what they've seen and heard.

Brewers visiting clubhouse manager Phil Rozewicz has heard it all from sleepy-eyed players who would rather hang out at Miller Park than spend one minute more than they have to at the Pfister.

"There was a rookie ball player and he was back in his room and he woke up in the middle of the night and his blinds were open, the window was opened and he was panicked," Rozewicz said. "So he went into the bathroom, splashed water on his face, came back out and went to bed. Shut the blinds, the window. Woke up in the morning. Same thing. Slept on the couch in the lobby the next night. Refused to go to his room. Finally, went to a Motel 6 or whatever up the street and just stayed there."

Of course, some of this could be mischievous teammates pulling pranks. But Pfister ghost stories go well beyond the ballpark.

Allison Jornlin, who leads haunted history tours for the folklore research organization Milwaukee Ghosts, said guests have reported seeing a "portly, smiling gentleman" roaming the halls, riding the elevator and even walking his dog. The apparition is said to resemble Charles Pfister, who founded the hotel with his father, Guido.

"His ghost is thought, usually, to behave very well," Jornlin said. "But MLB players seem to bring out his mischievous side."

Why's that?

"Obviously, he's a Brewers fan," Jornlin said.

But even some of the Brewers won't stay there in the offseason.

"Even if I come into town for FanFest or whatever, I'm staying somewhere else," said Brewers center fielder Mike Cameron, who moved his family to another hotel after one night last offseason. "I mean, it's not a bad place. But there has been a lot of stories, a lot of creepy things that have gone on."

Hotel general manager Joe Kurth won't acknowledge any specific ghost stories from ballplayers or other guests, citing privacy concerns. But he doesn't shy away from the rumors, suggesting that guests interested in seeing a spirit might want to stay in the hotel's historic wing.

The Pfister does have its fans. Colorado Rockies manager Jim Tracy loves the quiet atmosphere, though the same couldn't be said for Tracy's players when he was managing the Los Angeles Dodgers.

"I was hearing suggestions, to the point that they were saying, "I've got to go to a different hotel,"' Tracy said.

That sounds familiar to Gomez, who said he hears voices and noises when he stays there and had his worst experience after hopping out of the shower last year.

He'd just started putting his clothes on when his iPod started playing with a static noise. He grabbed it and the iPod changed music suddenly before going to static again.

"I grabbed my pants and my shoes and I ran to the lobby," Gomez said.

Gomez wishes the Twins would stay somewhere else.

"I'm scared to go there," he said. "They should change the hotel. Everybody here doesn't like the hotel. Why (do) they always put us in the same hotel when you can't sleep?"

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/9793112/Baseball-teams-fear-'haunted'-Milwaukee-hotel&gt1=39002

[westofyou]

Boogy Boogy

[Tommyjohn25]

Didn't Scott Williamson complain of a haunted hotel somewhere while he was playing for the Reds? I seem to remember something like that.

[reds1869]

Didn't Scott Williamson complain of a haunted hotel somewhere while he was playing for the Reds? I seem to remember something like that.

In St. Petersburg, Florida; the name of the hotel escapes me at the moment. His story is discussed in a book I read called Haunted Baseball. I don't put a lot of stock in the stories from that book, but it is a very entertaining read.

[savafan]

Mike Cameron swears the Pfister is haunted in this video

http://cosmos.bcst.yahoo.com/up/player/popup/index.php?cl=14435844

[Dom Heffner]

So imagine you are a ghost and you can move objects in the "real" world. Of all the things to do for eternity you are going to open and shut windows?

Mike Cameron says a hotel is haunted? Well, then, maybe he should bring his video camera next time stays there so we can all share in watching the spirits of dead people opening and closing window blinds.

[reds1869]

So imagine you are a ghost and you can move objects in the "real" world. Of all the things to do for eternity you are going to open and shut windows?

Mike Cameron says a hotel is haunted? Well, then, maybe he should bring his video camera next time stays there so we can all share in watching the spirits of dead people opening and closing window blinds.

I know the things I would choose to move, but that's not appropriate for a public forum. ;)

[savafan]

So imagine you are a ghost and you can move objects in the "real" world. Of all the things to do for eternity you are going to open and shut windows?



Perhaps they don't have a choice in what they do? Perhaps they are residual hauntings, doing the same things they did in life over and over?

[dougdirt]

So imagine you are a ghost and you can move objects in the "real" world. Of all the things to do for eternity you are going to open and shut windows?

Mike Cameron says a hotel is haunted? Well, then, maybe he should bring his video camera next time stays there so we can all share in watching the spirits of dead people opening and closing window blinds.

Dom, there is a belief that things are residual. Meaning that they do the same things over and over without the 'knowledge' that anyone else is there. Hence the reopening of the blinds and windows. 'It' realized the windows were closed and opened them without even 'knowing' anyone or anything else was there. Thats the belief anyways.

[GIDP]

Its pretty impressive how people who hunt for ghost are so dead set in their ways. It must take a lot of effort to think every crack or pop is a ghost walking on a floor.

[savafan]

Its pretty impressive how people who hunt for ghost are so dead set in their ways. It must take a lot of effort to think every crack or pop is a ghost walking on a floor.

I don't do that at all. My first goal is to try as hard as possible to find a natural explanation for everything. If none exists, then I consider other possibilities. I've debunked way more potential hauntings than actual paranormal experiences I've encountered. A lot more.

[dougdirt]

Its pretty impressive how people who hunt for ghost are so dead set in their ways. It must take a lot of effort to think every crack or pop is a ghost walking on a floor.

At the same time I think that door swings both ways (in the sense of believing or not believing, not so much a crack or pop is a ghost.... thats just dumb and no one over the age of 10 believes that). Those who don't want to believe simply won't, you know, until they experience something. I don't 'ghost hunt', to be honest, I would be way to scared to do it. I do believe though, in something paranormal. My best friend in turn used to give me so much grief for it all the time. He was very much an atheist until he got to Arizona where he experienced things that shook his world in a house he was staying at.

[savafan]

At the same time I think that door swings both ways (in the sense of believing or not believing, not so much a crack or pop is a ghost.... thats just dumb and no one over the age of 10 believes that). Those who don't want to believe simply won't, you know, until they experience something. I don't 'ghost hunt', to be honest, I would be way to scared to do it. I do believe though, in something paranormal. My best friend in turn used to give me so much grief for it all the time. He was very much an atheist until he got to Arizona where he experienced things that shook his world in a house he was staying at.

I think for some people it would literally take a ghost manifesting in solid physical form before their eyes and say to them, "Hi, I'm a ghost," before they'd believe.

[reds1869]

I think for some people it would literally take a ghost manifesting in solid physical form before their eyes and say to them, "Hi, I'm a ghost," before they'd believe.

That's basically what did it for my wife. And, no, I'm not kidding. And she is an atheist who makes fun of me for attending church!

[reds44]

I want to know if Gomez had been drinking or pulling a Michael Phelps before getting in the shower...

[marcshoe]

I've seen ghosts, but I don't believe in them, so it's okay. :confused:

I've been surprisingly unlucky in that regard in my trips to Gettysburg, though, and I even took a ghost tour. Nice stories, but no ghosts. I did, however, once have an experience in a hotel that I thought was weird and I couldn't find an explanation for. I didn't consider it to be a ghost, but the next day I picked up one of the "Gettysburg Ghosts" books and found a story identical to what I experienced--accompanied by a picture of the hotel where I stayed! :eek:


I will say that Gettysburg always gives me a creepy, step-into-the-past feeling. Knowing what happened there, it's bound to. It feels like more, but those are just feelings....

[GIDP]

I don't do that at all. My first goal is to try as hard as possible to find a natural explanation for everything. If none exists, then I consider other possibilities. I've debunked way more potential hauntings than actual paranormal experiences I've encountered. A lot more.

You try as hard as possible to find a natural explanation? I might be mistaken but didn't you create this thread? I dont want to sound insulting but you are pretty much lying to yourself if you honestly believe that. You seem to jump pretty quick that something is paranormal. I think your judgment is a little skewed just considering the couple pictures and post you have made in this thread.

I'm not saying I dont think ghost and things might be possible but I certainly see how far down the list of possibilities it possibly is. You even say it yourself that you debunked a lot of actual paranormal experiences, im guessing the ones you havent you believe to be real? Is there just a chance you really want to believe more than you really want to admit?

[GIDP]

At the same time I think that door swings both ways (in the sense of believing or not believing, not so much a crack or pop is a ghost.... thats just dumb and no one over the age of 10 believes that). Those who don't want to believe simply won't, you know, until they experience something. I don't 'ghost hunt', to be honest, I would be way to scared to do it. I do believe though, in something paranormal. My best friend in turn used to give me so much grief for it all the time. He was very much an atheist until he got to Arizona where he experienced things that shook his world in a house he was staying at.

I dont think its probable because the people that tend to believe just make these giant leaps. Some people dont want explainations, they much rather would believe that there is a ghost or something instead of the million of million of other options.

[GIDP]

I've seen ghosts, but I don't believe in them, so it's okay. :confused:

I've been surprisingly unlucky in that regard in my trips to Gettysburg, though, and I even took a ghost tour. Nice stories, but no ghosts. I did, however, once have an experience in a hotel that I thought was weird and I couldn't find an explanation for. I didn't consider it to be a ghost, but the next day I picked up one of the "Gettysburg Ghosts" books and found a story identical to what I experienced--accompanied by a picture of the hotel where I stayed! :eek:


I will say that Gettysburg always gives me a creepy, step-into-the-past feeling. Knowing what happened there, it's bound to. It feels like more, but those are just feelings....
I guess you just have to really want these types of things to be ghost or what ever. Maybe I'm just lucky and have never had anything even remotely paranormal happen to me or anyone I know other than some doped out uncle of mine.

[savafan]

You try as hard as possible to find a natural explanation? I might be mistaken but didn't you create this thread? I dont want to sound insulting but you are pretty much lying to yourself if you honestly believe that. You seem to jump pretty quick that something is paranormal. I think your judgment is a little skewed just considering the couple pictures and post you have made in this thread.

I'm not saying I dont think ghost and things might be possible but I certainly see how far down the list of possibilities it possibly is. You even say it yourself that you debunked a lot of actual paranormal experiences, im guessing the ones you havent you believe to be real? Is there just a chance you really want to believe more than you really want to admit?

Did I say anywhere definitively that the photos showed ghosts? No, I put a question mark at the end of the thread title. I am not an expert in spirit photography. I've sent the pictures out to people who are. I'm not jumping at anything, I'm not claiming I know what is in the pictures.

[dougdirt]

I dont think its probable because the people that tend to believe just make these giant leaps. Some people dont want explainations, they much rather would believe that there is a ghost or something instead of the million of million of other options.

Just like anything else, people that want to believe are going to do so and people who don't want to aren't. Both sides have their crazies and both sides have the more normal crowd.

[GIDP]

Did I say anywhere definitively that the photos showed ghosts? No, I put a question mark at the end of the thread title. I am not an expert in spirit photography. I've sent the pictures out to people who are. I'm not jumping at anything, I'm not claiming I know what is in the pictures.

You are certainly trying to imply its ghost.

[GIDP]

Just like anything else, people that want to believe are going to do so and people who don't want to aren't. Both sides have their crazies and both sides have the more normal crowd.

What would you consider a crazy then for people who don't believe in the ghost.

I certainly feel that the possibility of ghost is almost non existent does that make me a crazy?

I dont know where the moderate crowd would lay in the world of do you believe in ghost. It seems like such a small number of people ever supposedly experience ghost as it is. I'd be willing to bet the people that do believe are a lot more illogical in their reasoning than people who dont.

[GIDP]

BTW please dont take anything I'm saying to be insulting. I dont really want to come off that way but I guess its kind of hard not to considering the topic.

[dougdirt]

What would you consider a crazy then for people who don't believe in the ghost.


Those who have been in circumstances where all evidence points to something unnatural yet simply refuse the idea that its possible that there is a chance it was something paranormal.

[GIDP]

Those who have been in circumstances where all evidence points to something unnatural yet simply refuse the idea that its possible that there is a chance it was something paranormal.

Like what type of evidence? I dont think anyone has ever shown me a single proof of evidence other than these "this happened to me" stories, and I certainly have never experienced anything remotely paranormal. It seems like peoples evidence is completely based on having a lack of evidence.

[dougdirt]

Like what type of evidence? I dont think anyone has ever shown me a single proof of evidence other than these "this happened to me" stories, and I certainly have never experienced anything remotely paranormal. It seems like peoples evidence is completely based on having a lack of evidence.

Personal experience evidence. Video/pictures can be manipulated quite easily these days. I fully understand people not believing if they have never experienced anything. I will say this, I hope that you never have to experience anything. Its not the best thing in the world and I really hope I never have to again.

[GIDP]

So in other words you only will believe if you have it happen to you. Maybe I have and I just didnt see what someone else would see.

What is your story? Not to sound like a jerk but it seems all these stories are just so flaky.

[dougdirt]

So in other words you only will believe if you have it happen to you. Maybe I have and I just didnt see what someone else would see.

What is your story? Not to sound like a jerk but it seems all these stories are just so flaky.

I won't exactly not believe someone else's story, but I certainly prefer to know that person before giving them credit on whether I believe them or not.

As for my story, I am not going into it other than I was physically moved in a room where I was the only person in there. It was enough for me to believe.

I have only known two other people in my life to experience something, at least to the point where they told me about it. So its certainly not a thing that everyone has an experience with.

[GIDP]

I've never heard one story that I believed but maybe that just because I haven't experienced anything. I will say this any type of evidence presented to me always seems completely lacking of details or just silly. I don't want to say I don't believe you guys, but I don't believe you guys. :laugh:

[dougdirt]

I've never heard one story that I believed but maybe that just because I haven't experienced anything. I will say this any type of evidence presented to me always seems completely lacking of details or just silly. I don't want to say I don't believe you guys, but I don't believe you guys. :laugh:

Thats plenty fine. But ask yourself, why do some of the people with these stories tell them with absolutely nothing to gain from it?

[BoydsOfSummer]

I don't buy into the paranormal thing, but I swear I can't get enough of it. I catch any show regarding it and have even checked out different web sites about it. I'd love to have an "experience". Most people believe in a God of some sort. Are ghosts and such really that much of a stretch?

Maybe I do believe? :dunno: I guess I should be counted agnostic on all such matters.

[GIDP]

Thats plenty fine. But ask yourself, why do some of the people with these stories tell them with absolutely nothing to gain from it?

Why do people do a lot of things? Even if you arent making them up I still dont believe what you think happened actually did happen. Its me being a skeptic. Not that I think you made it up for the sake of making it up, but plenty of people think they see things when they dont. I think plenty of people have random reasons for making the stories up. I also think the unexplainable is what people think it is is mighty high.

I haven't experienced it but for all I know maybe I have and just didn't experience like someone else would have if in the same situation. I simply dont know.

Im a pretty big non believer, but it doesnt mean I rule it out.

[GIDP]

I don't buy into the paranormal thing, but I swear I can't get enough of it. I catch any show regarding it and have even checked out different web sites about it. I'd love to have an "experience". Most people believe in a God of some sort. Are ghosts and such really that much of a stretch?

Maybe I do believe? :dunno: I guess I should be counted agnostic on all such matters.

Same I certainly enjoy watching the shows, but I often just sit there laughing at it by the end.

[dougdirt]

Why do people do a lot of things? Even if you arent making them up I still dont believe what you think happened actually did happen. Its me being a skeptic. Not that I think you made it up for the sake of making it up, but plenty of people think they see things when they dont. I think plenty of people have random reasons for making the stories up. I also think the unexplainable is what people think it is is mighty high.

I haven't experienced it but for all I know maybe I have and just didn't experience like someone else would have if in the same situation. I simply dont know.

Im a pretty big non believer, but it doesnt mean I rule it out.

Well I didn't "see" anything. I felt something push me across the room about 6 feet. It would be pretty difficult for me to be shoved across a room with no one else in it and mistakenly miss something that would explain a logical reason for what happened.

[GIDP]

Well I didn't "see" anything. I felt something push me across the room about 6 feet. It would be pretty difficult for me to be shoved across a room with no one else in it and mistakenly miss something that would explain a logical reason for what happened.

Thats fine. Like you said even you dont believe people. I dont know if you have a reason to make it up. I certainly don't know a lot of things about people. I just know I haven't experienced it, and unless something happens to me I probably never will believe it.

[Stephenk29]

Well I didn't "see" anything. I felt something push me across the room about 6 feet. It would be pretty difficult for me to be shoved across a room with no one else in it and mistakenly miss something that would explain a logical reason for what happened.

Pretty sure in that situation my paints would be a little fuller.

I love those shows too, but I've never experienced anything. I've met a guy who claims to have had a lot of things happen to him. I'm pretty skeptical myself, but I certainly don't rule out the possibility.

[Driver62]

I believe somewhat in the paranormal and I've had a few things happen in my home that I couldn't explain but they weren't scary or anything like that.

As for Gettysburg, I've been there twice and have been all over the battlefield and the town. I wanted to hear or see something. I've heard all the stories about people seeing the same things for over 100 years but I didn't hear or see a thing.

Does that mean there are no ghosts or other activity there? Of course not. I just didn't have a paranormal experience on either of my visits.

People will believe what they want. I know two things happened in my home that there is no logical explaination for and one of them has happened several times but were they a paranormal experience? Beats me and I don't worry about it.

Now, if I look out my back window at night and see an indian or a soldier from the 1700's walking around, then I'll be a true believer.

[smith288]

I wasn't referring to this one- I believe the man who made the one you are referring to died in 1972, though there's a pretty strong case it's a hoax.

The dude decides to film a bigfoot documentary and - oh my- finds a bigfoot, in broad daylight on the very first day of shooting.

Afterwards, he went to Vegas where he won billions of dollars in one pull of the slot machine.

I saw a very good documentary (Monsterquest) that did a good job of finding various people who would know how to do certain things like skeptics of the Patterson film were saying. Such as making a professional looking costume or trick camera work.

A hollywood expert looked at the film and saw that he didnt believe it was a costume as a person of that height (determined by a photography expert who was able to get an accurate measurement based on 3d layout; also discovered the camera was a wide angle lens which wasn't known until this documentary). A human's body wouldn't have fit the profile of the object in the film because the knees werent in a human spot (much higher) and the head of the object was much more sloped than what a human could get away with without having their head WAY too far back in a mask to be able to even see (though not impossible, just unlikely for how well the thing was navigating).

Also, it was noted it had boobs. What weirdo would go out of their way to not only make a bigfoot suit and film it but to also make it a chick? Would be a lot of effort for such an odd detail.

All in all, it was still left to undetermined but many of the experts who took pieces of the film and tore it apart came back with the same theory that if it was a suit, it was state of the art for the time. TOO good for some bumpkin looking to fool people.

I still find it hard to believe. No bones or carcasses of these things? Maybe they are just smart enough to know how to dispose of a body but the chances are really small as I would assume they wouldn't know the scientific abilities of a human... but I digress.

Not something to discount immediately in my opinion.

[acredsfan]

While I have not had any personal experiences, I do not claim to be on either side of the argument. I love watching Ghost Hunters on what is now SyFy, but I want evidence for myself before I go believing. On the otherhand I will not write it off until I can prove these things don't exist. As a scientific thinker, you have to realize that there are things you don't understand or know about because that is the whole idea of science. If we knew everything there is to know then we would have nothing to look for.

On another note, I've really had the urge to start a paranormal investigation team, but would only want to do so if I could assure all of the people I would form this with would be genuine and scientific about it. My brother and I have talked about this for some time. We have 5 IR cameras that we have experimented with, but haven't done much in the way of pursuing this. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that if anybody would like to join us and try to pool experience and maybe just meet some other people who are skeptical but interested in the paranormal, maybe we could get something rolling. Just PM me and we'll see, I live in the Anderson area. Just be advised that I am skeptical, and would only be interested in forming a reputable group, not just going on how a place feels or what "legends" may be associated with it.

[Sea Ray]

I saw a very good documentary (Monsterquest) that did a good job of finding various people who would know how to do certain things like skeptics of the Patterson film were saying. Such as making a professional looking costume or trick camera work.

A hollywood expert looked at the film and saw that he didnt believe it was a costume as a person of that height (determined by a photography expert who was able to get an accurate measurement based on 3d layout; also discovered the camera was a wide angle lens which wasn't known until this documentary). A human's body wouldn't have fit the profile of the object in the film because the knees werent in a human spot (much higher) and the head of the object was much more sloped than what a human could get away with without having their head WAY too far back in a mask to be able to even see (though not impossible, just unlikely for how well the thing was navigating).

Also, it was noted it had boobs. What weirdo would go out of their way to not only make a bigfoot suit and film it but to also make it a chick? Would be a lot of effort for such an odd detail.

All in all, it was still left to undetermined but many of the experts who took pieces of the film and tore it apart came back with the same theory that if it was a suit, it was state of the art for the time. TOO good for some bumpkin looking to fool people.

I still find it hard to believe. No bones or carcasses of these things? Maybe they are just smart enough to know how to dispose of a body but the chances are really small as I would assume they wouldn't know the scientific abilities of a human... but I digress.

Not something to discount immediately in my opinion.


I saw that Big Foot show as well and did you notice they showed very few skeptics? I remember one and that's it. That's not very balanced reporting.


Here's my question that they didn't go into. They said that a human head couldn't fit into that costume. They superimposed a human head inside the Big Foot head. Problem is that assumes the person is 8 or 9 feet tall. The person's head would have to be below the Big Foot head. I'm sure that Big Foot was taller than the average human.

Am I missing something?

[Dom Heffner]

A hollywood expert looked at the film and saw that he didnt believe it was a costume as a person of that height

There was also a book written saying it was a hoax, including testimony from a guy who said he wore the suit in the film.

The bigger question is- and one nobody raises- is that this guy set out to shoot a bigfoot documentary and voila- sees a bigfoot on the first day of shooting.

Come on.

[acredsfan]

There was also a book written saying it was a hoax, including testimony from a guy who said he wore the suit in the film.

The bigger question is- and one nobody raises- is that this guy set out to shoot a bigfoot documentary and voila- sees a bigfoot on the first day of shooting.

Come on.That makes the whole thing statistically almost impossible. I find it very hard to believe Bigfoot can exist when so many people who try hard to find it can't, but just as many people work just as hard to hoax those who seriously believe for fame or money. Oh well, I can't be convinced until I see one in a zoo somewhere I guess. I won't however make fun of anybody who claims to have seen one, but that doesn't mean I believe them.

[Sea Ray]

While I have not had any personal experiences, I do not claim to be on either side of the argument. I love watching Ghost Hunters on what is now SyFy, but I want evidence for myself before I go believing.


I think that's where most of us fall where ghosts and other things are concerned. Until I experience "a ghost" I'm not convinced

[Dom Heffner]

I think the people who believe in this stuff use it as an explanation to anything they can't explain.

If they believed in invisible mushroom creatures, everytime something went bump in the night, it would be evidence of their existence.

I love the example above of how "my relative was never the type of person to believe in ghosts, but now he/she does...."

Well, then, they are the type of person to believe, aren't they?

A person that would never believe, would never believe.

I'm not sure how to reason with people who are essentially giving reason the finger.

[Larry Schuler]

This is a ghost. I am "ghosting" The Baumer's account to prove to you that we exist. What other explanation could there be for this post?

[dougdirt]

I think the people who believe in this stuff use it as an explanation to anything they can't explain.

If they believed in invisible mushroom creatures, everytime something went bump in the night, it would be evidence of their existence.

I love the example above of how "my relative was never the type of person to believe in ghosts, but now he/she does...."

Well, then, they are the type of person to believe, aren't they?

A person that would never believe, would never believe.

I'm not sure how to reason with people who are essentially giving reason the finger.

And at the same time if you were in a room with no one else in it and you were shoved across the room, you would just rub it off as the wind? Its a two way street with people who believe/don't believe. There simply is no reasonable explanation for something that shoved me hard enough to stumble across a room when nothing else was in the room but me and some furniture.

You don't have to believe and I honestly don't have an issue with someone not believing. However to be as close minded as to suggest its simply not possible is, well, unreasonable.

[Dom Heffner]

There simply is no reasonable explanation for something that shoved me hard enough to stumble across a room when nothing else was in the room but me and some furniture.


We agree totally here.

And no, I don't believe a ghost shoved you across the room.

One should be closed-minded to stuff like this. To be open-minded is to only encourage the fodder.

[Johnny Footstool]

The bigger question is- and one nobody raises- is that this guy set out to shoot a bigfoot documentary and voila- sees a bigfoot on the first day of shooting.

Come on.

...and in the 42 (yes, forty-two) years since then, with all the technological advancements since 1967, no one has been able to shoot a better video. Not even a ten-second clip.

[dougdirt]

We agree totally here.

And no, I don't believe a ghost shoved you across the room.

One should be closed-minded to stuff like this. To be open-minded is to only encourage the fodder.

Something caused my upper body to be jolted with force as if someone had shoved me. Whether it was a ghost or something else, it certainly wasn't something I could see. What is your explanation for what it could have been?

[lidspinner]

wow, a part of me wants that 15 minnutes back that it took me to read this thread....another part of me wants to slap GIDP for being such a non-believer but then I would need to slap myself, cause I too am a non believer(sort-of).....Ghosts are almost 100% of the time, discovered by someone who wants to discover a ghost.....I mean, sava took these pics while looking for a ghost.....the big foot video was taken while looking for bigfoot. The stuff that I DO believe in is the vidoes of someone doing something entirely different and you see an unexplained object in the background.....Those vidoes get me some goosebumps...

Let me re-word my thoughts....I am a non-believer of the proof that exists from true believers that go out and look for this stuff.

I am a believer, or I tend to believe stuff a little more when it comes from someone who is not "ghost hunting"...

If I go to crybabby bridge, then a frog fart could be interperted as a baby crying....expecially after a few months of telling the story.

If I go looking for bigffot with a camera, chances are that if I dont get video, I will probably hear something that leads me to think its bigfoot....when in reality it was probably 2 deer having sex.
Does anyone here deer hunt? if you do then you all understand the crazy sounds that you hear at 5am while sitting in your tree stand....Hell, I even swore that bigfoot was under my tree stand untill the sun came up and I seen that a coyote had drug his kill underneath my tree.....all I could hear was him chomping on a dead groundhog...Point is, you are going to hear all sorts of crazy things in the woods at night......just as yoou are in an old house, just as you are at gettsburgh, just as you would on an old county road at night......

my brain is open to all sorts of things, and I do think there is a paranormal life living amounst us......I just think that 99% of you "believers" want to believe a little to much.

[BearcatShane]

I love this stuff. I have never actually seen a ghost but I really, really hope I do some day because it will make me secure that when I'm dead, there is still something more. I live in Cincinnati and the two main haunted places that I know of are Lick Road and Buffalo Ridge Raod. The Lick Road story is a girl named Amy was raped and murdered by her boyfriend around 30 years ago and he dumped her body in the field at the end of Lick Road. Suposedly if you drive to the end of Lick Road, your windows will fog up and then turn off your car and flash your lights 3 times the Word "Amy" will appear in the condensation on the window. Also, if you get out of your car and go walk on the bridge you can hear her screams. I'v gone back to Lick Road and done these things MANY, MANY times and I have not had a single encounter. I'll keep trying though. The Buffalo Ridge story is that back in the 1930's their was a crematorium back in the woods off of Buffalo Ridge road and I think the Souls of the people who were cremated there haunt the place? I'm not completely sure on this one. Anyways if you drive on the road a van with one headlight supposedly will chase you out of the place. It's never happened to me. As for the crematorium, me and my boys actually did walk back there in their is an old building with only a foundation left but after further research, I don't think it was actually a crematorium.

[Dom Heffner]

...and in the 42 (yes, forty-two) years since then, with all the technological advancements since 1967, no one has been able to shoot a better video. Not even a ten-second clip.


1) There's a terrific case against the clip even being real.

2) If you are going to believe it, give me just a few sentences on the likelihood of setting out to film a bigfoot documentary and finding one on the first day. I mean, we hadn't even seen giant squids alive for centuries, and this guy gets a terrific film of bigfoot on the first day he tries? Sure, and I could walk into a casino, pull a lever, and retire on the first try.

3) The lack of technology is what makes the film seem more authentic. It's grainy, not in focus- a sharp, technoligically produced film would look as such. The sets in the new Star Wars movies are breathtaking- and they look nothing like the real thing. The simpler it is, the better. If you employ effects, they stand out like a sore thumb. Put a guy in a suit, film him from a distance, and you have the real mccoy, except for the dude in the suit. And unless I'm right there to unmask him, we don't "know."

4) If there were 600 fake films, there would have to be one that looks the best, wouldn't there? Your line of reasoning suggests that because it looks better than any other film, it must be real. Not a solid argument.


Something caused my upper body to be jolted with force as if someone had shoved me. Whether it was a ghost or something else, it certainly wasn't something I could see. What is your explanation for what it could have been?


I think the burden here isn't on me, my friend. I think the question to you would be, what else could it have been? Could it be possible you misperceived the events? Could you just have tripped and fallen?

To somehow come to the conclusion that a ghost could assault you- meaning it would have reasoning power, emotion, the ability to move objects in the physical world- over the imperfection of a human being to perceive events is striking.

"I fell down, felt like I was pushed, it must have been a ghost!"

Is that the reasoning line here?

Savafan's leaf picture- it's clearly a dead leaf- is a perfect example of the frenzy that goes with self-fulfilling ideas: I'm out hunting ghosts, I take a picture, I can't explain what I see, it must be a ghost!!!!!

Maybe you know better, maybe you don't. I don't really care. But to suggest that something from another world pushed you- if true- would make newspaper headlines around the world. I watched a 3 minute video yesterday on the news of a squirrel with a yogurt cup stuck on his head. If there were legitimate video or believable eyewitness accounts of ghost assaults, this stuff would be all over the news.

Instead, after all the paranormal study groups, ghost hunters, etc., there doesn't remain a single piece of conclusive evidence on any of this stuff.

I don't mean any offense, Doug. But you couldn't convince me a ghost commited assault on your person.

As well- have you ever asked yourslef why a ghost would shove you? I mean, do you think it was angry?

[OldRightHander]

I'm as skeptical as the next guy about this paranormal stuff, but that doesn't stop me from listening to Coast to Coast on occasion when I'm driving at night. It gives me a chuckle and occasionally someone will say something that at least makes me think of the consequences of it being real. My brain starts out with a what if and then follows the rabbit trail to the natural conclusion and then I laugh at the absurdity of most of it. The Bigfoot thing is really pretty harmless. If the things are running around in the woods, it's obviously not something that we need to be overly concerned about. It's not like they're a perceived threat if they've managed to keep away from humans all these years. I do have to agree that most people who are wired to believe one conspiracy theory (or strange creature) tend to buy into a lot of them.

[Johnny Footstool]

1) There's a terrific case against the clip even being real.

That's the point I was trying to make -- I was agreeing with you. If Bigfoot was real, the odds are we would have captured better footage of it sometime in the past 40 years. Sorry if that didn't come across.


I love this stuff. I have never actually seen a ghost but I really, really hope I do some day because it will make me secure that when I'm dead, there is still something more.

Something more, like opening and closing windows for all eternity, or running around in the woods while people chase you with a camera?

[Johnny Footstool]

Something caused my upper body to be jolted with force as if someone had shoved me. Whether it was a ghost or something else, it certainly wasn't something I could see. What is your explanation for what it could have been?

It could have been a severe muscle spasm or myoclonus. I'm not saying this is exactly what happened, but it seems more likely that you being pushed by a ghost.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myoclonus


Stimulus-sensitive myoclonus is triggered by a variety of external events, including noise, movement, and light. Surprise may increase the sensitivity of the patient.

[jimbo]

It could have been a severe muscle spasm or myoclonus. I'm not saying this is exactly what happened, but it seems more likely that you being pushed by a ghost.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myoclonus

I'm not sure how anyone can experience an involuntary muscle twitch and mistakenly interpret it as feeling like they were pushed or shoved. That sounds like just as much of a stretch than claiming it was a "ghost."

I've had a few experiences in my lifetime that turned me into a believer. I'm not saying I believe in "ghosts," as I think that is a bad term to use. We are not talking about dead people running around in white sheets terrorizing the living. Instead, I believe it's more about particular "energies" that can manifest themselves given the right circumstances. Are they intelligent spirits or entities, or just naturally occurring phenomenon? That's the debate.

Going back to Doug's experience though, I think only he can accurately describe what he felt. For us to sit here and judge or try and tell him what he experienced is kind of unfair, IMO. He seems like a pretty level-headed guy, I find no reason not to believe him because I don't think he has any kind of agenda here.

[Dom Heffner]

Someone claims they were pushed and fell down with no one else in the room.

Some possibilities:

1) They are making it up
2) they misinterpreted the experience.
3) A ghost did it.

In all of your experience as a human being, which one seems the likeliest? I mean, why would we believe the least likely scenario? People lie, people are wrong about their experiences, all the time. Every day.


Going back to Doug's experience though, I think only he can accurately describe what he felt. For us to sit here and judge or try and tell him what he experienced is kind of unfair, IMO. He seems like a pretty level-headed guy, I find no reason not to believe him because I don't think he has any kind of agenda here.

Reason is what guides and rules us. To sort of flip your finger at the laws of physics and expect people to be accepting is asking a lot, regardless of how nice you are or if you have an agenda or not.

I'm not doubting Doug believes it happened to him- I'm saying it didn't happen as he felt it.

Spirits commiting assault is a logical jump.

[Johnny Footstool]

I'm not sure how anyone can experience an involuntary muscle twitch and mistakenly interpret it as feeling like they were pushed or shoved. That sounds like just as much of a stretch than claiming it was a "ghost."

Really?

I had a muscle spasm in my leg once and it felt like someone kicked me. When I turned around, there was no one there.

Back spasms feel like you're being stabbed.

I think a severe muscle spasm in the chest could *feasibly* send someone staggering.

At least that answer is grounded in the realm of logic.


I've had a few experiences in my lifetime that turned me into a believer. I'm not saying I believe in "ghosts," as I think that is a bad term to use. We are not talking about dead people running around in white sheets terrorizing the living. Instead, I believe it's more about particular "energies" that can manifest themselves given the right circumstances. Are they intelligent spirits or entities, or just naturally occurring phenomenon? That's the debate.

Going back to Doug's experience though, I think only he can accurately describe what he felt. For us to sit here and judge or try and tell him what he experienced is kind of unfair, IMO. He seems like a pretty level-headed guy, I find no reason not to believe him because I don't think he has any kind of agenda here.

He asked for possible explanations. I simply provided one.

[dougdirt]

I have had a muscle twitch before and muscle spasm before.... neither of them in my upper body are going to A) cause me to go forward in a violent action or B) confuse it with being pushed/shoved.

I have tripped before. I have never tripped with my upper body causing me to 'lung forward involuntarily'.

Ghost, no ghost... some force hit me with a strong force that was unseen in my upper body hard enough to cause me to stumble forward a few feet.

BTW Dom, what 'law of physics' am I 'flipping the finger' to?

[jimbo]

Back spasms feel like you're being stabbed.


I've suffered from severe back spams for the past 6 years and would have never characterized them as feeling like I was being stabbed, although I do recognize that such conditions may feel different from person to person.

[jimbo]

I'm not doubting Doug believes it happened to him- I'm saying it didn't happen as he felt it.

Pretty bold statement being that you were not there and did not experience it yourself. You have no more evidence to support this conclusion as Doug does to support his.

There are still many things in our world that are yet unexplainable and cannot be proven or disproven by science or logic. Disagree?

[Yachtzee]

I've suffered from severe back spams for the past 6 years and would have never characterized them as feeling like I was being stabbed, although I do recognize that such conditions may feel different from person to person.

I once felt like someone was trying to cut me in half with an axe. I fell to the floor and couldn't move. It literally felt like if I tried to lift the top half of my body, it would come off the bottom half. Turned out it was a herniated disc that had been aggravated by a back spasm.

[forfreelin04]

Remember that one time the ghost pushed Adam Dunn in left field and he fell before he could catch that lazy flyball? Happened way too often. :cool:

I mean no disrespect to you Doug because your a man genius of Reds Minor League Baseball! However, I can agree a little with you and Dom. I had an experience when I was living in my fraternity house. (No it did not involve alcohol!) I was about fall asleep when I awoke suddenly and saw someone in my room. He/it was looking down at his feet. I started to say "hey nate" (my friend at the time) thinking he was in the room. Before I even could say "nate", I realized the door was locked and there was no way anyone could get into my room. At the point, a rush of fear came over me and the person looked up and pointed at me saying "Back!" It then disappeared. It's face was light yellow and there was a distinct wart on the persons nose. I was so scared (21 years old) I slept with the lights on for about a week. Later I found out, (after the incident) an old fraternity member died in a car accident and he was living in my room (1984) when it happpend. He also had a huge wart on his nose. True story and I've verified his car accident from alumni. Keep in mind I found out about the car accident after I saw the supposed ghost.

At the time, I thought my experience was so real that I told everyone about it as if it were 100% true. My parents and even my grandmother were told the story. That's how much I believed it.

However, I'm now 25 and a "little" more mature. I started to realize that I always had a little inclination or feeling that it was a dream. One of those "pop you right awake" dreams. The ones where you dream about sleeping. I also was extremely exhausted that night from studying and it was about 4 AM at the time. I did not know about the former fraternity member and the car accident at all, but I did see his picture all the time. His 1984 frat class picture was on the wall directly in front of my door. I saw it everyday. I always remembered his phone amongst the others because he was extremely ugly.

Thus, I also can agree with Dom here. I think reason tells us ghosts aren't real but it doesn't stop us from wanting to believe it to be true. I think people find comfort in the unknown; because life itself is a little too real. The unreal and unexplainable is so much more exciting (for some). We all loved fairy tales growing up and there's no reason to swear those off when there are adult ones too.

[Dom Heffner]

There are still many things in our world that are yet unexplainable and cannot be proven or disproven by science or logic. Disagree?

And there have been many things at once without an explanation that were considered supernatural and that now have explanations.

The statement I made is anything but bold- a bold person would call someone who told such a tale a liar. I'm giving the benefit of the doubt here.

There is no substantiated evidence that former living people can walk around amongst us and move objects in the physical world.

Doug is saying he was assaulted by something from another dimension.

Sorry- but I don't have to give that credence just because there are other unexplainable events in the world.

[savafan]

Savafan's leaf picture- it's clearly a dead leaf- is a perfect example of the frenzy that goes with self-fulfilling ideas: I'm out hunting ghosts, I take a picture, I can't explain what I see, it must be a ghost!!!!!



I'm not saying it isn't, as I'm not sure, but the photography experts who've gotten back with me on this so far, none of them have been near as certain about what exists in the picture as you have.

Like I said before, looking at the picture, if it is a dead leaf, there are no other dead leaves in that entire area of forest. Someone, I forget who, suggested that it would be possible for a squirrel to break that one branch, and no other branches in all of the other trees visible getting broken, to create that one dead leaf. I suppose that's possible. I decided to do a control experiment. I have woods behind my apartment. We have deer, squirrels, foxes, possums, skunks, raccoons and birds that I know of back in those woods. There are no dead leaves. I decided to break a branch and view it's progress. Once again, none of the leaves have turned brown. I have not proven or disproven anything, but I have utilized the scientific method to consider probability. I think my argument would have been stronger had I found multiple dead leaves as opposed to none, but it is what it is.

For the record, I have had muscle spasms that caused me to lunge violently forward.

[Johnny Footstool]

I have had a muscle twitch before and muscle spasm before.... neither of them in my upper body are going to A) cause me to go forward in a violent action or B) confuse it with being pushed/shoved.

I have tripped before. I have never tripped with my upper body causing me to 'lung forward involuntarily'.

Ghost, no ghost... some force hit me with a strong force that was unseen in my upper body hard enough to cause me to stumble forward a few feet.



So because it was like nothing you ever felt before, it couldn't have been a muscle spasm? That possibility is ruled out?

[Scrap Irony]

What is a photography expert and where can I get that job?

[dougdirt]

So because it was like nothing you ever felt before, it couldn't have been a muscle spasm? That possibility is ruled out?

Muscle spasms don't force you to tumble forward with force. Especially ones to your upper body. I can't describe the feeling other than it felt like someone was standing there and shoved me. Thats exactly what it felt like. What it was, I don't know. I can tell you it wasn't a muscle spasm. I know a muscle spasm. There is no way thats what it was and there is no way a muscle spasm in my upper body is going to cause my body to jolt forward in a way like that.

[savafan]

What is a photography expert and where can I get that job?

I believe the official term is professional photographer. :)

[WMR]

I believe the official term is professional photographer. :)

They haven't invented those in Bedford yet.

[Sea Ray]

Why do the ghosts in these ghost hinter shows only come out at night? I've never seen them "film" something during the day

[Dom Heffner]

Can ghosts move through walls?

Can you see them?

Are they energy or matter?

Do you experience "cold" when they are around?

Can ghosts make noises?

Can they hear?

[Johnny Footstool]

Muscle spasms don't force you to tumble forward with force. Especially ones to your upper body.

Savafan wrote that it had happened to him before, so it is possible.


I can't describe the feeling other than it felt like someone was standing there and shoved me. Thats exactly what it felt like. What it was, I don't know. I can tell you it wasn't a muscle spasm. I know a muscle spasm. There is no way thats what it was and there is no way a muscle spasm in my upper body is going to cause my body to jolt forward in a way like that.

I certainly can't tell you what you felt -- you were there, I wasn't. I'm just trying to give you one possible explanation that doesn't involve the supernatural.

[reds1869]

After rereading this thread, I've come to the following conclusion: The believers among us need to ask more skeptical questions like Dom Heffner and the non-believers need to be a little more open to possibilities. Both camps seem to dig their feet in like they are involved in a religious crusade. In the end, everyone--on both sides--needs to act in a more scientific manner. Using anecdotal evidence to "prove" ghosts does not do the job, nor does out of hand denying the existence of paranormal phenomena.

[Dom Heffner]

After rereading this thread, I've come to the following conclusion: The believers among us need to ask more skeptical questions like Dom Heffner and the non-believers need to be a little more open to possibilities. Both camps seem to dig their feet in like they are involved in a religious crusade. In the end, everyone--on both sides--needs to act in a more scientific manner. Using anecdotal evidence to "prove" ghosts does not do the job, nor does out of hand denying the existence of paranormal phenomena.

I truly appreciate this post, and I would add-

If we throw out the laws of physics, then we might as well just be talking about the Easter Bunny.

To say that a ghost pushed you or that you can see one, violates natural laws that we live and breathe by.

If you want to say that you think these laws don't apply at all times in our world, then hey, anything is possible. So if that's what some of you are saying, well, maybe there are tiny people living in my salt shaker right now and maybe we just can't see them.

If that's what being open-minded is about, consider mine closed.

This nonsense of people dying, their energy transforming into something else that is visible at times, they can then move through walls, move objects, speak....these are basic tenets of physics that have been violated and I'm not willing to go there based on a perception of the human mind.

[Dom Heffner]

I would love to ask our ghost chasers this:

Based on your eyewitness accounts and hearing accounts from others, can ghosts a) walk and b) move through obstacles such as walls, buildings, etc.?

[GIDP]

Maybe Ghost are actually the wind!

I feel ghost all day.

[TeamSelig]

I just took a huge ghost in my bathroom a few minutes ago

[pedro]

The only thing any of us know is that we don't really have any proof of anything. That goes for believers as well as disbelievers. Any stance to the contrary is, IMO, kind of arrogant.

[Johnny Footstool]

The only thing any of us know is that we don't really have any proof of anything. That goes for believers as well as disbelievers. Any stance to the contrary is, IMO, kind of arrogant.

One can deconstruct the idea of "proof" until there is no real "proof" of anything.

I don't think it's all that arrogant to view the universe as having some kind of order and reason to it, or to dismiss "possibilities" that are extremely remote and fall outside the realm of order and reason.

[dougdirt]

One can deconstruct the idea of "proof" until there is no real "proof" of anything.

I don't think it's all that arrogant to view the universe as having some kind of order and reason to it, or to dismiss "possibilities" that are extremely remote and fall outside the realm of order and reason.

Just because you can't prove something doesn't mean its not there. You can't prove love exists, but I bet we all can say we know it is.

Dom,
I am still curious as to what 'law of physics' was broken.

[pedro]

One can deconstruct the idea of "proof" until there is no real "proof" of anything.

I don't think it's all that arrogant to view the universe as having some kind of order and reason to it, or to dismiss "possibilities" that are extremely remote and fall outside the realm of order and reason.

True, but I still think it's one thing to say you don't believe something and quite another to dismiss it out of hand as completely impossible. The logical analogy for this is organized religion, which I don't believe in, yet I still admit that it is possible that I am wrong. That, however, is a topic best left for the the peanut gallery.

[Patrick Bateman]

Just because you can't prove something doesn't mean its not there. You can't prove love exists, but I bet we all can say we know it is.

Dom,
I am still curious as to what 'law of physics' was broken.

Except that love is an emotional state, not something independent of a person that is thought to be able to randomly push people to the ground.

[pahster]

Just because you can't prove something doesn't mean its not there. You can't prove love exists, but I bet we all can say we know it is.


There are a number of chemical, psychological, and sociological methods by which we can measure love.

[dougdirt]

There are a number of chemical, psychological, and sociological methods by which we can measure love.

No, we can measure something... but we can't be certain of what we are measuring.

[dougdirt]

Except that love is an emotional state, not something independent of a person that is thought to be able to randomly push people to the ground.

There are other examples of things that can't be proven but can't be unproven either. It was just a nice example that everyone would get.

[Patrick Bateman]

There are other examples of things that can't be proven but can't be unproven either. It was just a nice example that everyone would get.

I get that, it's just that there is really no great comparison for what is being discussed here.

[Johnny Footstool]

No, we can measure something... but we can't be certain of what we are measuring.

The things we can measure -- situations, behaviors, attitudes, actions, reactions, etc. -- are grouped together and defined as "love." The concept is broad, but we still have a pretty good idea what it is, and it is generally observable and repeatable.

[Yachtzee]

Just because you can't prove something doesn't mean its not there. You can't prove love exists, but I bet we all can say we know it is.

Dom,
I am still curious as to what 'law of physics' was broken.

Basic laws of physics accepted since Newton's time. I'm not a physicist, but it's my basic high school understanding that, in order to move a body at rest (you), some amount of force would be required to act upon that body, which in turn requires some combination of mass and energy. Thus for a ghost to move you, the ghost would need some kind of mass and/or energy to do so. If a ghost had mass or energy, it's presence would be detectable and measurable. As no one has yet provided observable and measurable scientific evidence of ghostly presences that can be repeated through experimentation, many people, including myself, remain skeptical.

[dougdirt]

The things we can measure -- situations, behaviors, attitudes, actions, reactions, etc. -- are grouped together and defined as "love." The concept is broad, but we still have a pretty good idea what it is, and it is generally observable and repeatable.

Or what is perceived as love. Lots of different definitions of love. I love people differently in my own life. Loving my family is different than loving a girl. Its an entirely different emotional tie.

Love to a 16 year old is often a lot different than love to a 25 year old, which is often a bit different than love to a 35 year old.

[dougdirt]

Basic laws of physics accepted since Newton's time. I'm not a physicist, but it's my basic high school understanding that, in order to move a body at rest (you), some amount of force would be required to act upon that body, which in turn requires some combination of mass and energy. Thus for a ghost to move you, the ghost would need some kind of mass and/or energy to do so. If a ghost had mass or energy, it's presence would be detectable and measurable. As no one has yet provided observable and measurable scientific evidence of ghostly presences that can be repeated through experimentation, many people, including myself, remain skeptical.

While I am not exactly sure what it is or isn't, there have been things caught on thermal imaging camera's that weren't seen by other regular camera's. Not exactly 'scientific' proof and I certainly am not going to go as far as saying its a ghost or entity, but well, something was there that wasn't seen by normal means that had energy of some kind that showed up.

[Johnny Footstool]

True, but I still think it's one thing to say you don't believe something and quite another to dismiss it out of hand as completely impossible...

Yes, it is important to remain open to possibilities, but not so open that you ignore the most likely possibilities.

[Johnny Footstool]

Or what is perceived as love. Lots of different definitions of love. I love people differently in my own life. Loving my family is different than loving a girl. Its an entirely different emotional tie.

Love to a 16 year old is often a lot different than love to a 25 year old, which is often a bit different than love to a 35 year old.

Sure. Like I said, it's a broad concept, with a lot of subsets and permutations, but it's still observable and repeatable. We know that emotions exist, and we know that certain emotions cause people to treat certain people more fondly than others, so we define that general state as "love."

[dougdirt]

Sure. Like I said, it's a broad concept, with a lot of subsets and permutations, but it's still observable and repeatable. We know that emotions exist, and we know that certain emotions cause people to treat certain people more fondly than others, so we define that general state as "love."

I treat some people more fondly than others because they are good people and other people are jerks. Thats not love.

But that really brings it back to the point that you can't prove love exists, just that some people cause different emotions than others. What emotion that is, you can't be sure other than taking ones word for it. They may just be really fond of that person or they may just really lust for that person and it triggers a strong emotional type of response.

[pahster]

I treat some people more fondly than others because they are good people and other people are jerks. Thats not love.

But that really brings it back to the point that you can't prove love exists, just that some people cause different emotions than others.

When we do science, we don't prove things; we disprove them.


What emotion that is, you can't be sure other than taking ones word for it. They may just be really fond of that person or they may just really lust for that person and it triggers a strong emotional type of response.

You're right at the individual level when it comes to survey data. Of course, when we have a large number of observations, we can expect the errors to wash out. That said, when it comes to measuring the levels of various chemicals in one's body, your argument doesn't hold.

[dougdirt]

When we do science, we don't prove things; we disprove them.
Except when the attempt to disprove something winds up proving it.



You're right at the individual level when it comes to survey data. Of course, when we have a large number of observations, we can expect the errors to wash out. That said, when it comes to measuring the levels of various chemicals in one's body, your argument doesn't hold.

And how many people have been measured in these such studies?

Either way, it comes back to the original topic.... how many 'haunted' places have been truly scientifically disproven? I am wagering zero.

[Johnny Footstool]

I treat some people more fondly than others because they are good people and other people are jerks. Thats not love.

Sorry, but that is a form of love.


But that really brings it back to the point that you can't prove love exists, just that some people cause different emotions than others. What emotion that is, you can't be sure other than taking ones word for it. They may just be really fond of that person or they may just really lust for that person and it triggers a strong emotional type of response.

You're trying to dispute one fine point of a broad definition. Really, the fact that you can define one emotion as "love" and other emotions as "not love" pretty much proves that love exists.

But really, we're getting off on a tangent here.

[pahster]

Except when the attempt to disprove something winds up proving it.

Science is not a means by which to prove things; hypothesis testing doesn't allow for it. A hypothesis is drawn from a theory and must be testable. So lets say the hypothesis is "as X increases Y increases." This relationship is tested using an appropriate method. If the result(s) of our test(s) allow us to reject the hypothesis, we know it to be false with some level of confidence (usually we take a 5% likelihood of rejection when the hypothesis is true as an acceptable level). However, if we fail to reject the hypothesis, it does not mean that it is true. It merely means that we can't discard it. Thus we don't prove things when we do science.


And how many people have been measured in these such studies?

It depends. Individual surveys? Probably 100-10,000 each. Lab stuff? I'm not so sure, but likely something around 10-100 each. Meta-analysis allow us to aggregate the results of individual studies to simulate having larger samples.

I'm running an experiment using undergrads as my subjects this fall. I'll have a subject pool of somewhere between 100-200, which is a pretty decent number. Medical research is often done using exceedingly tiny samples (i.e. 10 or fewer participants).

[savafan]

I suppose electromagnetic field readings by ghost hunters in the field wouldn't be a scientific means of measuring something. Sure, it can't say that there is definitively a paranormal entity present, but it can tell you that something is out of the ordinary.

Many ghost hunters claim that there are cold spots where ghosts are present. It has been known to happen during paranormal investigations for temperatures to drop sometimes as much as 40-50 degrees in supposed haunted areas. Again, doesn't tell you 100% that there is a ghost present, but it is something that can't always be explained by logical scientific thinking.

Also, cameras and electronic voice recorders have been placed in supposed haunted places and then left there while all persons leave the premises. Doors have been locked, and while there is no way for anyone to manipulate the situations, these recordings have picked up voices and movements that were discovered after the researchers went back to check their equipment.

I cannot say definitively that these meters and recordings prove the existence of ghosts, but neither can anyone else claim without prejudice that they do not.

[reds1869]

I suppose electromagnetic field readings by ghost hunters in the field wouldn't be a scientific means of measuring something. Sure, it can't say that there is definitively a paranormal entity present, but it can tell you that something is out of the ordinary.

Many ghost hunters claim that there are cold spots where ghosts are present. It has been known to happen during paranormal investigations for temperatures to drop sometimes as much as 40-50 degrees in supposed haunted areas. Again, doesn't tell you 100% that there is a ghost present, but it is something that can't always be explained by logical scientific thinking.

Also, cameras and electronic voice recorders have been placed in supposed haunted places and then left there while all persons leave the premises. Doors have been locked, and while there is no way for anyone to manipulate the situations, these recordings have picked up voices and movements that were discovered after the researchers went back to check their equipment.

I cannot say definitively that these meters and recordings prove the existence of ghosts, but neither can anyone else claim without prejudice that they do not.

Agreed 100%. The predictable response is going to be, of course, that all of these things are faked. And in fact some of them are. But I have to say there is possibly something to it. Honestly I would need to see such experiments with my own eyes to believe their veracity. Personal experience (which I can't use as evidence) tells me there is some validity, but that is also a far cry from evidence...it's just a nice start. I would love to be involved in events such as what you are describing to see for myself.

[Dom Heffner]

But that really brings it back to the point that you can't prove love exists, just that some people cause different emotions than others.

So love can't be proven to exist but other emotions can?

Prove sadness exists. have you ever been sad? Prove to me you were.

You're playing a shell game here. Emotions- such as love, sadness, happiness- can't be proven as we would prove a mathematical equation or the theory of gravity because they are internal mechanisms. We all feel them in our mind- though evidence can be seen on the outside such as our smiles, tears, romantic action.

Because we share the same human experience, however, we can relate what we are feeling. The chemical reaction your body goes through when you are in love is mostly the same for everyone. We know this because most people describe the same feelings.

You could look at someone with a sore throat and see that their throat is red, but could I prove that what they are feeling when their throat is sore is the same feeling that I have when my throat is sore?

Ghosts, on the other hand are an outside force- they are not internal feelings or emotions, and your attempt to say that "You can't prove love exists (even though you most certainly can), therefore everything in this world can't be proven" is not only a shoddy comparison but it's flat out wrong.

Could ghosts be possible? Not if you believe in the laws of physics. If you want to suspend that belief on special occasions, be my guest. But it is not arrogant to say that ghosts do not exist when everything that we are given to determine truth from fiction disproves them.

People say they feel cold when next to a ghost? What would actually happen if you were standing next to something cold would be this: the heat from your body would go towards the ghost, not the other way around.

People say they see ghosts walking across a floor and then disappearing into a wall or passing through something. The law of physics would say that you can't both stand on a floor and pass through walls (a floor is a wall on the ground, is it not?).

We can go on and on here, and the naysayers can say "Well, if they are ghosts, they don't have to follow the laws of physics..."

And at that point we can talk about tiny mushroom people living under bridges, and invisible pumpkins, and anything else the mind can dream up.

Ironically- science has discovered the chemical that makes us like to be scared.

I think there's more of that at work here than ghosts.

If this makes me arrogant, then I'm guilty as charged.

[BuckeyeRedleg]

If people believe in ghosts or the paranormal, what's the problem?

Not understanding the angst in this thread over it.

[dougdirt]

Could ghosts be possible? Not if you believe in the laws of physics. If you want to suspend that belief on special occasions, be my guest. But it is not arrogant to say that ghosts do not exist when everything that we are given to determine truth from fiction disproves them.


For the 3rd time, will you please tell me where ghosts defy the laws of physics. You keep bringing up that they do, but you have yet to say how they do.

[Dom Heffner]

Doug- Yachtzee did a pretty good job of explaining what I was going to post- sorry, didn't need think you had to hear it from me.

I think it's sort of funny that you're demanding an explanation as to how an invisible force (either a former human turned spirit, demon, etc.) pushing you to the ground violates natural laws.

They teach what you are claiming all the time in physics class. Things pop out of nowhere in your room when you are alone and assault you. No need to explain it, really, as there are things like "love" that are unprovable LOL.....

If a force can shove you, funny how we don't accidentally just "bump" into ghosts every now and then, isn't it? Or can they fly now, too? Or do they have the super power of appearing and reappearing at will? Yeah, that wouldn't violate any natural law.

[reds1869]

Doug- Yachtzee did a pretty good job of explaining what I was going to post- sorry, didn't need think you had to hear it from me.

I think it's sort of funny that you're demanding an explanation as to how an invisible force (either a former human turned spirit, demon, etc.) pushing you to the ground violates natural laws.

They teach what you are claiming all the time in physics class. Things pop out of nowhere in your room when you are alone and assault you. No need to explain it, really, as there are things like "love" that are unprovable LOL.....

If a force can shove you, funny how we don't accidentally just "bump" into ghosts every now and then, isn't it? Or can they fly now, too? Or do they have the super power of appearing and reappearing at will? Yeah, that wouldn't violate any natural law.

Food for thought:

https://reich-chemistry.wikispaces.com/file/view/heisenberg_uncertainty_principle.gif

[savafan]

If a force can shove you, funny how we don't accidentally just "bump" into ghosts every now and then, isn't it? Or can they fly now, too? Or do they have the super power of appearing and reappearing at will? Yeah, that wouldn't violate any natural law.

Yes, but what about unnatural law?

[Johnny Footstool]

Yes, but what about unnatural law?

Unnatural law would allow for any possibility -- magic, telekinesis, demonic wishes, sentient black holes, Easter Bunnies with swords...

[dougdirt]

I think it's sort of funny that you're demanding an explanation as to how an invisible force (either a former human turned spirit, demon, etc.) pushing you to the ground violates natural laws.

If a force can shove you, funny how we don't accidentally just "bump" into ghosts every now and then, isn't it? Or can they fly now, too? Or do they have the super power of appearing and reappearing at will? Yeah, that wouldn't violate any natural law.
For starters Dom, my experience is completely irrelevant to a ghost existing violating the laws of physics. Simply being invisible doesn't violate the laws of physics. Being invisible but having enough of something to cause a reaction to a person doesn't either. Heck, the wind is invisible and can knock you over can't it? The US Army uses a 'heat gun' that is invisible and will burn the crap out of you if you don't move long enough.

As for bumping into things all the time.... well there are different theories out there. Appearing and disappearing could be possible if the theory that ghosts take the energy from the fields around it to appear or to 'move things'. And no, that doesn't violate a law of physics.

I do find it a little funny though that we are maybe, 150 years into even beginning to understand things on a level beyond what our eyes can see but the belief is that anything we don't already understand simply is impossible because of science. Heck, even the simple things that we couldn't begin to imagine 30 years ago are childs play today in scientific terms because of where our technology is. The assumption you are making that things are simply impossible based on where we are in our 'science' is fairly arrogant.

[Ltlabner]

Can ghosts go through drive-thu's and get a cheeseburger?

[Dom Heffner]

Being invisible but having enough of something to cause a reaction to a person doesn't either. Heck, the wind is invisible and can knock you over can't it?

Oh dear.

This last post has too much in it for me to refute without taking too much time.

We knocked apart your love argument, now we are into invisible weaponry used by the Army (it's not invisible per se but it is provable) and a theory of invisiblilty that could actually work within the laws of physics but has nothing to with independent spirits walking around your home and pushing you to the ground for no reason.

Let's just agree to this: You believe that an invisible being can knock you over and commit assault on your person, while I believe that it's remotely likely this is what took place.

If you are going to ignore the way energy and matter work and be willing to suspend natural laws so that anyhting is possible, well then, there is no arguing with you becuase the way we argue is to use natural laws and logic.

If you believe your life is a Star Trek episode, there is no harm in that. But you can't have a fair debate with someone when their side gets to make up their own set of laws, such as "anything is possible."

As I said before, maybe tiny people live in my salt shaker. I think I saw one. So you all must automatically believe me because anything is possible.

In the words of the entirely medicore Jim Rome, "Out!"

[Ltlabner]

If you are going to ignore the way energy and matter work and be willing to suspend natural laws so that anyhting is possible, well then, there is no arguing with you becuase the way we argue is to use natural laws and logic.

This is always what I come back to also. If a believer is simply going to say "yaneverknow" to any point you make then there's really no discussing anything on a basis of reason, science, logic or even common sense. Frankly, most of the "proof" people come up with boils down to "yaneverknow" or some crappy picture.

And most of those crappy pictures turn out to be fakes or show absolutely nothing. A believer is going to see some brown leafs and conclude it's a paranormal being. A non-believer is going to see some brown leafs and correctly conclude they are brown leafs.

[Ltlabner]

It was only later when I put the pictures on the computer that I noticed the images.

But discovering the images later on is proof of one thing: that you didn't notice item earlier, not that it was a Rebel solider.

Unless you are trying to claim you memorized every last detail of your entire outing? Otherwise the image didn't magically appear, it was there all the while and you just missed it the first time.

[westofyou]

Can ghosts go through drive-thu's and get a cheeseburger?

Only after Midnight, before that they go to Steak and Shake and get a booth

[savafan]

But discovering the images later on is proof of one thing: that you didn't notice item earlier, not that it was a Rebel solider.

Unless you are trying to claim you memorized every last detail of your entire outing? Otherwise the image didn't magically appear, it was there all the while and you just missed it the first time.

Not necessarily. Some of my pictures contain balls of light, referred to as orbs, which I didn't see with my naked eye. Some of the pictures have a few, some have many. Other pictures contain what paranormal researchers call ectoplasm trails, again which I didn't see with my naked eye. These pictures were taken in the cellar of what is referred to in Gettysburg as the Jennie Wade House, considered by those who consider such things to be the sixth most haunted place in the country. Many others, not just myself, have captured the same things on camera at that location. You can't see them just by looking, but they show up on film. Now, I didn't alter those pictures, and I don't believe that everyone else who has taken photography there altered theirs either, although there is a possibility that some did. I've also watched video taken at that house, and heard voice recordings from when the house was locked up after hours. I don't know what it is, but something unnatural happens there, and if it's unnatural, then it can't be bound by natural law.

[dougdirt]

As I said before, maybe tiny people live in my salt shaker. I think I saw one. So you all must automatically believe me because anything is possible.



At the very least there have been things spotted on thermal imaging camera's when its not visible to the naked eye. When your salt shaker theory comes up with something at the very least as close to that, we can start talking. Until then, you are just trying to suggest I am stupid in a slightly nicer way than coming out and saying it.

There are EMF theories out there that have detected something in an area where there shouldn't have been any abnormal EMF readings where 'something' was seen or heard.

There is then of course EVP work that has picked up voices on the other end that weren't there to the ear or even video camera when it originally happened, but can be heard on the tape.

I am sure there are also other things.

There is stuff out there that at least suggests something is going on that we may not know much about. To ignore it or brush it off isn't the same as me brushing off your 'salt shaker men'.

[TeamSelig]

Sorry to break your heart, but the show Ghost Hunters is fake and staged.

[dougdirt]

Sorry to break your heart, but the show Ghost Hunters is fake and staged.

Which is fine and all, but that doesn't mean much in terms of anything that I said in my last post.

BTW, where did you see that it was fake and staged? I would be interested in seeing that.

[jimbo]

Sorry to break your heart, but the show Ghost Hunters is fake and staged.

If you claim is so, you would think they would come up with better faked and staged evidence. :rolleyes:

[TeamSelig]

There are some fake/fraud claims on the internet. To me, it's pretty obvious it is fake considering there is evidence found on basically every show. :rolleyes:

[dougdirt]

There are some fake/fraud claims on the internet. To me, it's pretty obvious it is fake considering there is evidence found on basically every show. :rolleyes:
Honestly, I think its actually about 50-50 whether they say a place is haunted or not. While they may find something at almost every place, they also need more than something to suggest a place is haunted.

Of course, unless one of us go out with them, we will never really know how its going down (short of evidence coming out that its faked - ie Bear Grills).

[savafan]

Of all the paranormal shows on television, the only one I put any stock in really is Paranormal State on A&E. One of my favorite episodes was when their investigation showed that what a woman was experiencing was actually caused by carbon monoxide poisoning.

[reds1869]

Of all the paranormal shows on television, the only one I put any stock in really is Paranormal State on A&E. One of my favorite episodes was when their investigation showed that what a woman was experiencing was actually caused by carbon monoxide poisoning.

I have to completely disagree. Of all the paranormal shows out there they are the most prone to embellishment and "creative" editing. The article below is a good read on such an incident.

http://www.ghosttheory.com/paranormal/paranormal-state-caught-faking-entire-show/

[savafan]

I have to completely disagree. Of all the paranormal shows out there they are the most prone to embellishment and "creative" editing. The article below is a good read on such an incident.

http://www.ghosttheory.com/paranormal/paranormal-state-caught-faking-entire-show/

Interesting. I've never talked with Chip or Ryan, but I have had contact with others involved with this show. I'm not sure what to think about this one article though.

[gilpdawg]

Of all the paranormal shows on television, the only one I put any stock in really is Paranormal State on A&E. One of my favorite episodes was when their investigation showed that what a woman was experiencing was actually caused by carbon monoxide poisoning.
I've had a minor episode of carbon monoxide poisoning. It will totally mess you up. Almost feels like you're having a stroke.

[jimbo]

There are some fake/fraud claims on the internet. To me, it's pretty obvious it is fake considering there is evidence found on basically every show. :rolleyes:

Actually, I think their recent seasons have become quite boring because of the lack of hard evidence found.

I've seen the claims and I don't give them much credit. With as many seasons and hundreds of shows they have done, and with the many people that has been associated with the show, I find it hard to believe that not one accusation of faking evidence has been leaked. There have also been a few investigators who did not leave under good circumstances. The only claims have come from the internet, skeptics not associated with the show.

I do think that sometimes things get edited by the network, not to fake evidence, but to condense the footage into an hour long show. At times, this could be done recklessly enough to make the evidence appear faked, the FLIR video being a good example of this.

I enjoy the show, but also take it with a grain of salt. I look at the evidence found and form my own conclusion.

[BuckeyeRedleg]

I have to completely disagree. Of all the paranormal shows out there they are the most prone to embellishment and "creative" editing. The article below is a good read on such an incident.

http://www.ghosttheory.com/paranormal/paranormal-state-caught-faking-entire-show/

I read a bit of this and then hit the youtube link within the article but the episode has been pulled.

On a sidenote, I did some other searches of that show on youtube and am utterly mystified by the level of fan worship the Ryan dude has out there. Seriously. Search his name on youtube and he has little tributes to him all over the place. I don't get it. One of the most average looking dudes I have ever seen.

People are freaky.

[RBA]

The ghost in my house ate the big piece of chicken. I get the shaft again.

[Sea Ray]

I don't know what it is, but something unnatural happens there, and if it's unnatural, then it can't be bound by natural law.

So you agree with Dom and disagree with Doug where laws of physics are concerned?

[savafan]

So you agree with Dom and disagree with Doug where laws of physics are concerned?

I agree that the natural world is dictated by the laws of physics, yes.

[Sea Ray]

I agree that the natural world is dictated by the laws of physics, yes.

And the unnatural world is dictated by what?

[Yachtzee]

And the unnatural world is dictated by what?

Zombie Overlords

[WMR]

Zombie Overlords

:laugh:

[savafan]

And the unnatural world is dictated by what?

Quite simply, we don't know.

[Sea Ray]

Quite simply, we don't know.

I agree with you. Doug and Dom were debating that issue. Doug seemed to take the position that ghosts do not violate our laws of physics with comments like this:



As for bumping into things all the time.... well there are different theories out there. Appearing and disappearing could be possible if the theory that ghosts take the energy from the fields around it to appear or to 'move things'. And no, that doesn't violate a law of physics.

I do find it a little funny though that we are maybe, 150 years into even beginning to understand things on a level beyond what our eyes can see but the belief is that anything we don't already understand simply is impossible because of science. Heck, even the simple things that we couldn't begin to imagine 30 years ago are childs play today in scientific terms because of where our technology is. The assumption you are making that things are simply impossible based on where we are in our 'science' is fairly arrogant.


So I'd say you're with Dom on this one

[BearcatShane]

Anyone have any recent ghost stories? I just watched this show on ghosts and it interested me.

[Yachtzee]

Anyone have any recent ghost stories? I just watched this show on ghosts and it interested me.

I played "Ghostbusters" on Lego Rock Band with my son. There were a lot of scary lego ghosts flying around, but we weren't afraid of no ghosts. ;)

[Eric_the_Red]

I watched Field of Dreams the other day. The ghost of Joe Jackson forgot which hands to use when he was throwing and batting. Scary.

[Dom Heffner]

Anyone have any recent ghost stories? I just watched this show on ghosts and it interested me.

I would hope that if someone really saw a true ghost, it would end up on CNN.

Can you imagine if ghosts really existed? What a news story that would be.

[dougdirt]

I would hope that if someone really saw a true ghost, it would end up on CNN.

Can you imagine if ghosts really existed? What a news story that would be.

More like if ghosts were proven to exist. "Ghost" videos have been on news channels before. Just like UFO videos.

[Dom Heffner]

More like if ghosts were proven to exist. "Ghost" videos have been on news channels before. Just like UFO videos.

Sure, you see ghost videos all the time on the news networks. Wolf Blitzer can't shut up about them.

[savafan]

Sure, you see ghost videos all the time on the news networks. Wolf Blitzer can't shut up about them.

They did show the Michael Jackson "ghost" video at Neverland Ranch on CNN a lot. :p:

[Dom Heffner]

I've been thinking that if ghosts can push someone down, and they've been doing this for centuries, at some point someone has died due to their injuries.

Some deaths that we thought were accidents were actually murders from beyond. ;)

[dougdirt]

I've been thinking that if ghosts can push someone down, and they've been doing this for centuries, at some point someone has died due to their injuries.

Some deaths that we thought were accidents were actually murders from beyond. ;)

If we are going that far you have to also consider suicides.

[Dom Heffner]

If we are going that far you have to also consider suicides.

Absolutely.

[westofyou]

Absolutely.

You know those mornings that you wake up and can't remember how you got home, or got undressed?

Ghosts probably are what got you home and into bed is my best guess.

[Dom Heffner]

You know those mornings that you wake up and can't remember how you got home, or got undressed?

Ghosts probably are what got you home and into bed is my best guess.

I wonder if I've ever been touched inappropriately by a ghost. Or if I could ever use that as an excuse?

[acredsfan]

I wonder if I've ever been touched inappropriately by a ghost. Or if I could ever use that as an excuse?
One thing is for sure, next time I "misplace" something, I'm not blaming it on my memory or what I did the night before. I wonder what use ghosts have for cell phones, keys and wallets though....

[forfreelin04]

I saw a ghost in the playoffs that looked like the Bengals at first glance. Turned out it was just the same ole Bungles. :(

[MrCinatit]

You know those mornings that you wake up and can't remember how you got home, or got undressed?

Ghosts probably are what got you home and into bed is my best guess.

I know quite a few people who have been possessed by the spirits on a Friday or Saturday night, only to not be able to remember what happened the next morning as they are throwing up.

[goreds2]

http://z.about.com/d/paranormal/1/0/g/j/1/decebal-hotel-ghost.jpg

[Dom Heffner]

http://z.about.com/d/paranormal/1/0/g/j/1/decebal-hotel-ghost.jpg

Wonder who picks out the ghost's wardrobe? Do they change clothes, or are they wearing what they wore when they died? Or do they wear what they wore at their funeral? Has there ever been a naked ghost?

I've always puzzled over why they are always wearing old fashioned clothes instead of terry cloth jogging shorts with a matching headband.

I'd be interested in what super power ghosts possess where they can pass through walls yet don't sink through the floor.

[BoydsOfSummer]

I know quite a few people who have been possessed by the spirits on a Friday or Saturday night, only to not be able to remember what happened the next morning as they are throwing up.

I'm about half possessed right now!:p:

[jimbo]

Wonder who picks out the ghost's wardrobe? Do they change clothes, or are they wearing what they wore when they died? Or do they wear what they wore at their funeral? Has there ever been a naked ghost?

I've always puzzled over why they are always wearing old fashioned clothes instead of terry cloth jogging shorts with a matching headband.

I'd be interested in what super power ghosts possess where they can pass through walls yet don't sink through the floor.

I can never understand the need for some to mock the beliefs of others? Whatever happened to the saying, if you can't say something nice, say nothing at all?

[mdccclxix]

Man, I was hoping to hear more stories and less arguing. 16 pages of ghost stories would be sweet.

[Roy Tucker]

Our kids used to play ghosts in the graveyard.

[mdccclxix]

These days, there isn't a single picture or video you could show me to make me believe. Period. I will peruse them for a good laugh though. And the TV shows on bigfoot are so completely, utterly hilarious I have fallen down laughing before. One show featured the "Texas Chapter" of Bigfoot hunters. Absolutely hilarious! And why was it on the History Channel?

Anyway, those shows are easy to pick apart. UFO's, Ghosts, Bigfoot, etc.

One fact on ghosts or spirits that I find interesting is that the idea of them has been around for eons. So many people have claims about them, I think it lends credence to the idea.

Another thought I had was that billions of people have passed away from earth. Billions. Yet there only seems to be accounts of hauntings on a limited scale.

Also, skeptically, hauntings seem to appear in places that seem appropriate. Near old pictures, in graveyards, at battlefields, in an old house. The context of these settings makes it easier for the mind to imagine the past, the people who are gone now, your own mortality is perhaps sharpened before you...then whoops! you see a ghost!

Nobody sees ghosts while waiting in line at McDonalds, right?

I'll wait to hear the stories of the burger ghost now, :)

Anyway, I do believe in ghosts because I believe there are things we cannot explain with science. Still no proof on why we're even alive, lol! Science has it's limits, and even if hobbyist ghost hunters trick themselves and others all the time, science can't disprove ghosts. I believe someday science will start to move into metaphysical discoveries, which will be a scary thing, but that's not for this discussion.

As for a ghost story of my own:

We had a house that had bedrooms in the 2nd floor. The whole family had gone to bed, people were just shutting out the lights, everyone was accounted for, and then the piano near the bottom of the steps just started playing a few of the highest notes. We even moved to the top of the steps while it played. After checking, nobody could have been doing it. That house had particular stuff happen to more than one person. Another time a door which would get stuck very firmly against carpet, so much so that it if it went too far back you could hear the fibers of the door cracking if you tried to move it back, just slammed shut after being fixed in a position like I described.

These experiences, and others from people who have nothing to gain by making it up, make me aware of the possibility that ghosts are real.

[Johnny Footstool]

Science has it's limits, and even if hobbyist ghost hunters trick themselves and others all the time, science can't disprove ghosts.

Nope, science can't disprove ghosts, because ghosts exist in the crazy, no-holds-barred world of The Supernatural. Science can't disprove the Flying Spaghetti Monster, either.

While it is possible that ghosts are real, the burden of proof lies with those making the claim.

[dougdirt]

Nope, science can't disprove ghosts, because ghosts exist in the crazy, no-holds-barred world of The Supernatural. Science can't disprove the Flying Spaghetti Monster, either.

While it is possible that ghosts are real, the burden of proof lies with those making the claim.

At the same time proof is all in the eyes of the person accepting/rejecting it. You could tell me all day long you love your wife. You know it, for a fact. Doesn't mean I will believe you. Some people have proof, just like your love for your wife, that they have seen a ghost or UFO, that you simply won't believe. There are explanations out there for a lot of 'hauntings' that aren't actually ghosts making noises or causing things to move around. There are explanations for things we see in the sky sometimes too. But sometimes there aren't either.
As for the flying spaghetti monster... has anyone ever caught it on camera? Ghosts and UFO's have been. Whether you want to believe its an actual ghost or object from somewhere that isn't Earth is another story, but there have been many different people with evidence of those things. Flying spaghetti monster, no, not really even close to the same kind of thing.

[westofyou]

Comparing love and belief in the supernatural is a reach of major league proportions.

[dougdirt]

Comparing love and belief in the supernatural is a reach of major league proportions.

Why? You can't show your love to another person. Its blind faith that someone believes how you feel about another person. If I experience something that you can't experience but I tell you that I did experience it you either have a choice to believe me or to not believe me.

[westofyou]

Why? You can't show your love to another person. Its blind faith that someone believes how you feel about another person. If I experience something that you can't experience but I tell you that I did experience it you either have a choice to believe me or to not believe me.

Because it's an emotion and you're trying to compare it to something that is not an emotion, it's silly to even try to go down that path.

[pahster]

Because it's an emotion and you're trying to compare it to something that is not an emotion, it's silly to even try to go down that path.

Yes. Also, we can measure the chemical reactions that cause emotions.

[jimbo]

Yes. Also, we can measure the chemical reactions that cause emotions.

That doesn't prove love though.

[Sea Ray]

I can never understand the need for some to mock the beliefs of others? Whatever happened to the saying, if you can't say something nice, say nothing at all?

I don't know, it sounded like a valid question to me...

[Johnny Footstool]

That doesn't prove love though.

No, but our measurements of those processes, as well as outward behaviors, are proof that an emotion called "love" does indeed exist.

Now, we can haggle at great length about the definition of love and what it really means and what it is and isn't, but we can't logically deny that the emotion of love exists.

[mdccclxix]

Comparing love and belief in the supernatural is a reach of major league proportions.

Not really because both involve the senses. You either hear, see, or feel a ghost. It is recorded in your mind. Likewise, the love you feel for another is internal.

[dougdirt]

Yes. Also, we can measure the chemical reactions that cause emotions.

Sure, but can we tell which reaction is being caused? We all have different meanings of the feeling of love. So we are going to get different results for readings on different people aren't we? So we don't really know what readings are right or wrong, which are love, lust or infatuation...

[dougdirt]

No, but our measurements of those processes, as well as outward behaviors, are proof that an emotion called "love" does indeed exist.

Now, we can haggle at great length about the definition of love and what it really means and what it is and isn't, but we can't logically deny that the emotion of love exists.
Some people don't believe love exists. You can't convince some people that ghosts don't exist either. Those who have experienced things aren't going to be swayed that there isn't "proof" out there because they have experienced proof. Just because they can't show it to you doesn't make it any less proof to them.

[Kingspoint]

Some people don't believe love exists.

Not everyone in life gets to experience that. I wouldn't wish that upon my worst enemy.

[Kingspoint]

Some people don't believe love exists. You can't convince some people that ghosts don't exist either. Those who have experienced things aren't going to be swayed that there isn't "proof" out there because they have experienced proof. Just because they can't show it to you doesn't make it any less proof to them.

Something "doesn't exist" because it hasn't been experienced, yet. The key to that is the word, "yet".

I have seen a UFO, and I'm not from Kentucky. ;)

Though I was in Kentucky when I saw it and I had a witness, and neither of us had been drinking.

[Kingspoint]

Not really because both involve the senses. You either hear, see, or feel a ghost. It is recorded in your mind. Likewise, the love you feel for another is internal.

Just like how an identical twin can get a "twinge" when something bad happens to their sibling, even though that person might be 1000 miles away, a deep, deep love can connect two people in a similar fashion.

Many humans and animals have "depressed" themselves to death within a week after losing a loved one or a mate.

[Kingspoint]

I've tried and tried not to be a Bengals' fan even though I've been abused by Mike Brown for years, but there's nothing I can do about it.

I love the Bengals.

[Kingspoint]

The reason 20th Century United States doesn't believe in "spirits" is because they are unfamiliar with how to connect to them. American Indians talk to their ancestors on a regular basis, and they do not leave them just because their bodies have ceased to function. Their ancestors are as alive as you or I.

Who do you think is dealing you that "bust" card when you go to the casino? ;)

[westofyou]

Just like how an identical twin can get a "twinge" when something bad happens to their sibling, even though that person might be 1000 miles away, a deep, deep love can connect two people in a similar fashion.

Many humans and animals have "depressed" themselves to death within a week after losing a loved one or a mate.

My mother is an identical twin, when her sister was ill last summer she knew it prior to hearing about it. She said it was just a sense that she had, she couldn't pinpoint it but she had it.

The obituaries are full of older couples who die within months of each other, even when one was as healthy as horse.