Why ST. Louis competes

[butlerbulldogs]

George Grande during the eighth inning, they don't just go get players for the fans. They do it for LaRussa, so he stays. There is more pressure in St. L he says, the reds need to fire him now. He is making it sound like it is ok for us not to compete because we don't have the pressure. I am tired of watching losing baseball. I am 27 years old and haven't seen the reds in the playoffs since I was 13 years old. Unbelievable!

[GIDP]

They compete because they get pitching off the scrap heap and they have one of the greatest hitters in the history of baseball on their team.

[FlyerFanatic]

wasnt welsh saying in some st louis dispatch article that a cards FO person said that their offer for Halladay would be something like, heres our minor league roster, choose any 5 you want? if they get halladay forget about it, they'll win the central hands down

[BluegrassRedleg]

They compete because they want to. It's a matter of pride for that organization.

[Captain Hook]

They compete because they want to. It's a matter of pride for that organization.

Agreed 100%

The Reds could be ran the same way but they allow their team to go into every season with major weaknesses then do nothing when the team shows that they can compete despite those weaknesses.Does anyone remember the last time the Reds made a move mid-season that improved the team that required taking on payroll?There have been a hand full of seasons over our playoff drought that the Reds were still in at this point but nothing is ever done.

[killuminati35]

I also couldn't agree more. There is a pride in that organization that keeps them in contention. The Reds had it once. It would be great to have it back.

[gilpdawg]

Agreed 100%

The Reds could be ran the same way but they allow their team to go into every season with major weaknesses then do nothing when the team shows that they can compete despite those weaknesses.Does anyone remember the last time the Reds made a move mid-season that improved the team that required taking on payroll?There have been a hand full of seasons over our playoff drought that the Reds were still in at this point but nothing is ever done.
Jimbo went out and got Estes and Moehler in 2002. That team hung in there for awhile and we made some moves. Neither one of those guys panned out but the effort was there. Also flipped Juan Encarnacion for Dempster. If Dempster's arm hadn't been blown out that may have worked out.

[Griffey012]

Tony Larussa and Dave Duncan. Possibly the best manager at getting production out of average talent, and easily the best pitching coach in baseball.

[LetsGoReds11]

Juan Guzman we went out and got in 99 for BJ Ryan and another minor league pitcher....Had a big salary that did an ok job for us that year when traded.....Still didn't get us over the hump though and into the playoffs as we all know what happened..

Yea I give alot of credit to Dave Duncan....He always seems to get a scrap heap of a starter and turn him into something of reliability and greatness....Chris Carpenter was coming off a major surgery and always had shoulder problems.....When the Cardinals picked him up how many years back, anyone could of had him....Took him awhile to get back but when he did, now look at what he does for that team....Kyle Loshe pitches 10 times better then he did when he was with the Reds or even the Twins....Many other pitchers he seems to do this with and it goes on and on.....Dave Duncan and Alber Pujols.....Thats all you have to say

[Fon Duc Tow]

.....Dave Duncan and Albert Pujols.....Thats all you have to say

Dick Pole and Brook Jacoby...Thats all you have to say :D

[Moosie52]

Salary Comparison
Reds Cards
2009 73,558,500 77,605,109
2008 74,117,695 99,624,449
2007 68,904,980 90,286,823
2006 60,909,519 88,891,371
2005 61,892,583 92,106,833
2004 46,615,250 83,228,333
2003 59,355,667 83,786,666
2002 45,050,390 74,660,875
2001 48,784,000 78,333,333

[Fon Duc Tow]

Salary Comparison
Reds Cards
2009 73,558,500 77,605,109
2008 74,117,695 99,624,449
2007 68,904,980 90,286,823
2006 60,909,519 88,891,371
2005 61,892,583 92,106,833
2004 46,615,250 83,228,333
2003 59,355,667 83,786,666
2002 45,050,390 74,660,875
2001 48,784,000 78,333,333

The Cards decide to have a lean year (meaning they only decided to spend 4 million more than the Reds, instead of the usual 25 million more than the Reds), and then fans come here and try to use the fact that the Reds spent so closely to the Cards this year as justification for the last 15 years of ineptitude. :rolleyes:

I'm sorry but what I said before is true. The Reds spend at the middle of the pack year after year and that is exactly where they end up year after year. The Cards on the other hand, for one reason or another decided not to spend as much this year for a change. But we'll see where that number is after St. Louis picks up another horse or two for the playoffs.

It is simple cause and effect, NOT luck or any other reason, as to why both Cincinnati professional sports teams fail year after year.

[Captain Hook]

The Cards decide to have a lean year (meaning they only decided to spend 4 million more than the Reds, instead of the usual 25 million more than the Reds), and then fans come here and try to use the fact that the Reds spent so closely to the Cards this year as justification for the last 15 years of ineptitude. :rolleyes:

I'm sorry but what I said before is true. The Reds spend at the middle of the pack year after year and that is exactly where they end up year after year. The Cards on the other hand, for one reason or another decided not to spend as much this year for a change. But we'll see where that number is after St. Louis picks up another horse or two for the playoffs.

It is simple cause and effect, NOT luck or any other reason, as to why both Cincinnati professional sports teams fail year after year.

The biggest problem isn't the team's payroll going into the season.Where I have a problem with the Reds ownership is like I mentioned before.The team goes into the season with issues that the front office wasn't able to address because of payroll restraints and finds a way through other strengths to be competitive.Not competitive enough to make the playoffs but close to it.This should give the front office a better idea of what is needed to not just be competitive but to make a actual playoff run.This season is a perfect example of what I'm talking about.The Cards on the other hand have a way of making deals happen and spending the money that it takes to make a .500 team a playoff team.

[kfm]

They compete because they get pitching off the scrap heap and they have one of the greatest hitters in the history of baseball on their team.

Agree 100%. Albert makes such a difference on that team and in this division and Dave Duncan can turn almost any pitcher into a winner. Give any team these two guys and they will be significantly improved. If the Reds had these two guys they would be in first place.

[Captain Hook]

I was wondering if the Reds had made the same exact moves that the Cards have made where would they be.I imagine they would be doing a little better then they are now.Injuries have played a big part in our demise as well as a lack of moves to improve what imo was at one time a fringe contender.With a little luck(no injuries)and a more motivated GM/owner we could like this.

CF Dickerson
C Hannigan
1B Votto
LF Holliday
2b DeRosa
SS Phillips
3B EE
RF Bruce

Hernandez,Gomes,Lugo,Taveras,Nix and Hairston is a pretty nice bench.I know the Reds wouldn't move BP to SS and with Lugo they wouldn't have to but its just what I would do.Derosa could play just about where ever he is needed so he wouldn't have to come out if you put BP back at second and Lugo at SS.

I think the moves that the Cards have made could have been made by the Reds.I won't say it would have been easy but they could have pulled it of if they were really serious about winning this year.Instead we're stuck with this crap.

[lidspinner]

IMO, the Cards understand that its very difficult to get your top prospects up to the big show and start.....I am sorry, but the odds are against any prospect in any organization turning out any better than Matt Holiday and Cliff Lee and Roy Halladay...so the Cards basically do what it takes to get those guys....even if it means giving up a guy that "MIGHT" make the MLB roster in 3 years.....They get negotiation rights to Matt and Cliff and their club jusst got better by at least 10-15 wins over the course of a year.....Now if matt and Cliff can give you a good 6 years then you have that long to go draft their replacements and develop them into stars......Its a common theme amoungs mid market teams....go look it up......the only teams out there that follow the Reds manual to success are the ones that 99% of the time finish at the bottom of the scrap heap.....I would say the exception to that rule is the Tampa Bay Rays and maybe the Athletics......its a model that the Reds have been trying for 15 years, its a model that has proven failure over 90% of the time.....I think its not time for a management change, but time for a theory change.....even if the payroll gets knocked up to 80mill....this team could contend for a playoff every year just like the Cards.....We have young pitching, we just need a ACE and we need protection around Joey not named jay.....oh yeah, and get Mario Soto in here PRONTO....