Volquez has Tommy John Surgery - Out for approximately one year

[LexingtonRedsFan]

While watching the mlb trade show online, there were messages on the twitter and then I saw one from mark sheldon...stated that volquez didnt complete his 80 pitches and went to the dugout early.....fingers crossed nothing bad

[GIDP]

This what happens when you are a reds player.

[BluegrassRedleg]

This what happens when you are a reds player.

If he was a Cardinal, he'd be throwing with 5 mph more velocity by now.

Duncan's deal with the devil on baseball's crossroads looms large.

[GIDP]

If he was a Cardinal, he'd be throwing with 5 mph more velocity by now.

Duncan's deal with the devil on baseball's crossroads looms large.

If he was a cardinals he would have been traded for Scott Rolen.

[gilpdawg]

I wouldn't panic just yet. I'd be more upset if he had continued to pitch through the whole year like a lot of guys would have. That's how you get blown out elbows. Shut him down for this year, and he should be ok for this year, if tendinitis is all it is, and I'm sure he's had a MRI.

[GIDP]

RHP Edinson Volquez will have right elbow surgery Monday, the Reds just announced. On the DL since June 2, Volquez yesterday complained of elbow stiffness and soreness after throwing 20 pitches of a scheduled 80-pitch simulated game.

A prognosis for recovery will be determined after Monday's surgery, the Reds said. From here, it would seem we have seen the last of Volquez this season. We'll get comments from the clubhouse, which opens at 3:40 p.m. to the media.


Not a good sign for a team trying to go all in for the 2010 season.

[mroby85]

Ugh, So how serious is this surgery? hopefully not one of the year and a half deals. This is sickening.

[GIDP]

Ugh, So how serious is this surgery? hopefully not one of the year and a half deals. This is sickening.

I bet he's out for at least the beginning of 2010. I can see it now.

"We arent worried about our pitching, we have Volquez coming back" when asked why we didnt go and get a starting pitcher.

[Fon Duc Tow]

If it is Tommy John surgery, he will be out until at least this time next year, or so I have read.

[GIDP]

If it is Tommy John surgery, he will be out until at least this time next year, or so I have read.
Yea TJ is at least a year long rehab.

[Jack Burton]

This organization is in shambles.

[WeLoveLarkin!!!]

and another depressive, and earth quaking chapter is added to the story of "reds misery"

[TheBigLebowski]

Not TJ. Exploratory. Let's just hope all goes well. We're due for a break.

[FlyerFanatic]

Not TJ. Exploratory. Let's just hope all goes well. We're due for a break.

where did you see that?

[TheBigLebowski]

Pretty apparent at this point that Homer's splitter needs work.

[REDblooded]

While Jocketty shreds a farm, Dustah shreds an arm

[GIDP]

Volquez had tommy john today.

2010 just got a lot more tough. I hope walt doesnt panic again like he did for Rolen.

[WildcatFan]

Out at least 12 months. Does that mean Harang and Arroyo don't get traded now?

[Joeyjection19]

Out at least 12 months. Does that mean Harang and Arroyo don't get traded now?

I hope that's not how it works. I'm not excited at all about Arroyo's raise, but having Harang at 12M is just awful. If we freed up 22M for next season right now, I'm sure we could sign two better SP's than those two.

Of course, we'll have to pick up some of their salary....

[mroby85]

Volquez had tommy john today.

2010 just got a lot more tough. I hope walt doesnt panic again like he did for Rolen.

Rolen appears to be a very solid baseball player to me. He doesn't have a hit yet, but you can tell he has an approach up there, and he looks stellar in the field. I'm not hating the trade at all after watching him play, he looks like he knows what he's doing out there.

[FlyerFanatic]

well volquez is done. who knows how much velocity he'll lose..unreal

[bgwilly31]

Oh mother of GOD!

Can we please go BACK AnD GET BACK JOSH HAMILTON!

Let the I told you so's come raining down on all the people that non stop bashed me for absolutely hating the trade before.

They all used the Whatever hamilton will relapse crap.

I'll take pitching over hitting....Look where that got us this year.

And now Volquez is down for the count.

12 months and then if he's ever as good. What are the chances of returning to the same level of performance or better>? In my personal expierence ive known 3 pitcher friends of mine that had it done. zero for 3 ever returned to full strentgh or full "potential"
__________________

[gilpdawg]

well volquez is done. who knows how much velocity he'll lose..unreal
This isn't 1988. Most guys get their velocity back. Most. Not all. Look at all the guys who had TJ surgery and came back with their same stuff.

[gilpdawg]

Oh mother of GOD!

Can we please go BACK AnD GET BACK JOSH HAMILTON!

Let the I told you so's come raining down on all the people that non stop bashed me for absolutely hating the trade before.

They all used the Whatever hamilton will relapse crap.

I'll take pitching over hitting....Look where that got us this year.

And now Volquez is down for the count.

12 months and then if he's ever as good. What are the chances of returning to the same level of performance or better>? In my personal expierence ive known 3 pitcher friends of mine that had it done. zero for 3 ever returned to full strentgh or full "potential"
__________________

You mean the Hamilton of the sub .700 OPS this year? Even when healthy he's not been going great. He needs a bounce back year next year himself.

[Bigg Red Smokey]

:all_cohol

As a Reds fan I am just looking for a little break...

Honestly this piece of news is as depressive as I have heard. I thought we had a shot with arms like Volquez and Cueto and to an extent Bailey. Throw in a coupe of vets like Harang and Arroyo and you have semblance of a real staff. I had HOPE.

Now I just feel sick...

[gilpdawg]

I had an idea earlier today....sitting there at work....and I think it's not a bad one.

1-Trade Cordero. Now. He'll clear waivers with his salary.
2-Put Homer on the "Phillip Hughes" plan. I think his future is in the pen anyway. He's got the stuff to go out there and blow people away for an inning. If that works out, there's your closer. Homer and Hughes career paths are eerily similar, and Hughes was as bad as Bailey until going to the pen. Now he's almost unhittable.
3-Trade one of Harang/Arroyo now. They'd clear waivers too.
4-With the payflex....sign or otherwise acquire a #3 caliber starter and a SS in the offseason.

Then your rotation next year is:

Cueto
Either Harang/Arroyo
Offseason acquisition
Owings/until Volquez hopefully returns in July-August
Whichever youngster earns the 5 spot in spring.

That top 3 isn't bad. Not great, but it's a start and if you spend wisely you could improve the offense enough to be a factor.

[FlyerFanatic]

This isn't 1988. Most guys get their velocity back. Most. Not all. Look at all the guys who had TJ surgery and came back with their same stuff.

well, do you want him to go back out there and throw with the same motion again? sounds pretty risky, say they change his throwing motion, whose to say he can get the velocity back with the new motion?

i'm not saying he'll fall off much, he might come back and throw 90, but i dont think he'll be able to rear back and crank out a 96-97 mph fastball like he has been doing.

[Shawn_RedsFan]

Gilpdawg- becoming a closer isn't that easy....keep Homer as a starter.

[gilpdawg]

Gilpdawg- becoming a closer isn't that easy....keep Homer as a starter.
Lots of closers are guys who struggled as starters. Joe Nathan, Eric Gagne just two off the top of my head. Dave Righetti (although he didn't really struggle), Jeff Brantley spent some time as a starter early in his career, Tom Gordon went from an average starter to an above average pen guy, the list goes on and on.

[Shawn_RedsFan]

Lots of closers are guys who struggled as starters. Joe Nathan, Eric Gagne just two off the top of my head. Dave Righetti (although he didn't really struggle), Jeff Brantley spent some time as a starter early in his career, Tom Gordon went from an average starter to an above average pen guy, the list goes on and on.

I know the former players you don't need to tell me that but why would we take Homer out of the starting role when he has been decent thus far and has shown signs of promise..and maybe if we had some better defense out there half the time his line wouldn't look so bad.

Are you forgetting about Masset?? Make him your closer.

[Ghosts of 1990]

Never should have traded Hamilton for this guy. He has bad mechanics.

[bgwilly31]

Never should have traded Hamilton for this guy. He has bad mechanics.


Can you imagine if we had hamilton back now.

Look how far volquez got us. pffttt.

1. Legit leadoff guy CF
2. Brandon phillips
3. Joey votto
4. Josh hamilton
5. Scott rolen
6. Jay bruce
7. Hanigan
8. Rosales<<<needs replaced by aquisition


I would Freaking love that lineup!!!!:eek::eek::eek::eek:

[JayBruce]

Can you imagine if we had hamilton back now.

Look how far volquez got us. pffttt.

1. Legit leadoff guy CF
2. Brandon phillips
3. Joey votto
4. Josh hamilton
5. Scott rolen
6. Jay bruce
7. Hanigan
8. Rosales<<<needs replaced by aquisition


I would Freaking love that lineup!!!!:eek::eek::eek::eek:

Hamilton has injured most of the year, too. We also don't have a legit leadoff guy; we have Wily Tavares.

The trade is looking like a wash. We trade away a guy who's body would inevitably fail him because of his drug use, and someone his jealous teammates didn't like for a guy who was an arm injury waiting to happen. Both teams got one good year out of their player, at least. I don't see Hamilton ever being able to play more than 120 games a season, and who knows if Volquez makes it back.

[Shawn_RedsFan]

I wouldn't take the trade back Volquez will be back and may be better than he ever has who knows but this is a big reason I wouldn't take it back DANIEL RAY HERRERA.

[bgwilly31]

Hamilton has injured most of the year, too. We also don't have a legit leadoff guy; we have Wily Tavares.

The trade is looking like a wash. We trade away a guy who's body would inevitably fail him because of his drug use, and someone his jealous teammates didn't like for a guy who was an arm injury waiting to happen. Both teams got one good year out of their player, at least. I don't see Hamilton ever being able to play more than 120 games a season, and who knows if Volquez makes it back.

still sticking to the relapse bull ehhh.

Volquez is done till 2011. So that puts him out for 1 full season and 3 quarters of another.

hamilton had a minor injury and is back in action. Even making ESPN commercials. He's a budding star!

Volquez is a fading spark.

[GIDP]

Josh Hamilton didnt do a lot of damage to his body with drugs
Josh Hamilton really didnt get injured
Josh Hamilton isnt OPSing under .700 this year

Its all propaganda dont listen to the lies people.

[JayBruce]

still sticking to the relapse bull ehhh.

Volquez is done till 2011. So that puts him out for 1 full season and 3 quarters of another.

hamilton had a minor injury and is back in action. Even making ESPN commercials. He's a budding star!

Volquez is a fading spark.

What in the eff are you talking about? I never wrote the word "relapse", nor did I imply that I thought he might have one. Don't put words in my mouth, brah.

FACT: Josh Hamilton did hard drugs for a number of years.
FACT: Drugs take a toll on the human body, even after you stop using them.
FACT: Josh Hamilton has missed a significant amount of time in the past 2.5 years, minor injuries or not.
FACT: He will continue to miss significant time for the remainder of his career.

[gilpdawg]

I know the former players you don't need to tell me that but why would we take Homer out of the starting role when he has been decent thus far and has shown signs of promise..and maybe if we had some better defense out there half the time his line wouldn't look so bad.

Are you forgetting about Masset?? Make him your closer.
If you're saying Homer has been decent....then I don't know what else I can add to this conversation. If he continues on his current path he'll be out of baseball in 5 years. Might as well give him a chance to succeed if he doesn't show something the rest of this year.

[gilpdawg]

What in the eff are you talking about? I never wrote the word "relapse", nor did I imply that I thought he might have one. Don't put words in my mouth, brah.

FACT: Josh Hamilton did hard drugs for a number of years.
FACT: Drugs take a toll on the human body, even after you stop using them.
FACT: Josh Hamilton has missed a significant amount of time in the past 2.5 years, minor injuries or not.
FACT: He will continue to miss significant time for the remainder of his career.
Your final fact isn't in fact, a fact, it's an assumption. Thanks. :D


(Although you're probably right, it's all in how ya word it)

[bgwilly31]

What in the eff are you talking about? I never wrote the word "relapse", nor did I imply that I thought he might have one. Don't put words in my mouth, brah.


FACT: He will continue to miss significant time for the remainder of his career.

Your a funny guy brah. :laugh:

[Krawhitham]

Gilpdawg- becoming a closer isn't that easy....keep Homer as a starter.

see David Weathers

[Krawhitham]

I would rather have Josh minus the attitude than Volquez, but


Of 68 Major League Baseball pitchers who underwent the surgery between 1998 and 2003, most (82 percent) returned to play within an average of 18.5 months post-surgery with no change in average earned run average or walks or hits per innings pitched, Dr. Brett W. Gibson of the Penn Sports Medicine Center in Philadelphia and colleagues found.

[BLEEDS]

Josh Hamilton didnt do a lot of damage to his body with drugs
Josh Hamilton really didnt get injured
Josh Hamilton isnt OPSing under .700 this year

Its all propaganda dont listen to the lies people.

Well at least we can agree on something... :thumbup:

Risk for Risk, I liked Volquez v. Hamilton at the time, and I still do.
Hopefully EV comes back and changes his mechanics now that he KNOWS it helped lead to this.
Hamilton, I see nothing but downside, and always did, from where he was at.
At the time, we were all offense, and were overloaded in the OF, and we needed pitching.
Hamilton for Volquez, and to a lesser extent but similar Pena for Arroyo, are the risks you take and hope to get the better end of it.


PEACE

-BLEEDS

[JWP]

Why does everyone want Josh Hamilton back so badly? He's been as irrelevant as Volquez has this season. He has a line of .226/.277/.377 for a sparkling .654 OPS in 212 ABs, and he's hardly been able to stay healthy.

I still make that trade 100% of the time. The Reds got a CY caliber season from Volquez, and the Rangers got an MVP caliber from Hamilton. The Reds got an injury riddled, mediocre sophomore campaign from Volquez (who did have a sub-3.00 ERA in the starts before his injury), as the Rangers did with Hamilton.

[bgwilly31]

right well now the reds have a tommyjon return Hope pitcher.

And the rangers have a MVP caliper Allstar hamilton.

Look how far that trade got us. :thumbdown

[JWP]

right well now the reds have a tommyjon return Hope pitcher.

And the rangers have a MVP caliper Allstar hamilton.

Look how far that trade got us. :thumbdown

An MVP caliper? :cool:

http://www.global-b2b-network.com/direct/dbimage/50238936/4_Key_Digital_Caliper.jpg

(And the Rangers don't have an MVP caliber player in Josh Hamilton right now. That's a fact.)

[GIDP]

MVP calipers? Are they better than Brembo's?

[JayBruce]

Your a funny guy brah. :laugh:

Thanks, guy. But I'm also correct.

If you're going to argue with me about whether or not drug use has, and will continue to have, an effect on Josh Hamilton's body, there is no need to even continue this discussion. It's a medical FACT, not something I made up; although it's probably too much to ask somebody who resides in Hamilton to be able to grasp such a concept.

It's clear with your subsequent post that you are completely out of your element with this discussion. Let the adults talk, please.

[bgwilly31]

MVP calipers? Are they better than Brembo's?

I post in car forums all day. :laugh:

[bgwilly31]

Thanks, guy. But I'm also correct.

If you're going to argue with me about whether or not drug use has, and will continue to have, an effect on Josh Hamilton's body, there is no need to even continue this discussion. It's a medical FACT, not something I made up; although it's probably too much to ask somebody who resides in Hamilton to be able to grasp such a concept.

It's clear with your subsequent post that you are completely out of your element with this discussion. Let the adults talk, please.

I said it when it happened this trade would go down as one fo the worst ever for the reds.

Volquez had one year of pretty good numbers.
2nd year not so good. and now he is down for a year and half. And has to recover from a tommyjon.

Hamilton is Very talented. Which is why is becoming a budding star of baseball. You find hamilton on Espn commercials. MLB.com's front page...And his name in hot topics all over the media. Volquez not so much.


Not to mention the Rangers team record since the trade has improved tremendously.

[JayBruce]

I said it when it happened this trade would go down as one fo the worst ever for the reds.

Volquez had one year of pretty good numbers.
2nd year not so good. and now he is down for a year and half. And has to recover from a tommyjon.

Hamilton is Very talented. Which is why is becoming a budding star of baseball. You find hamilton on Espn commercials. MLB.com's front page...And his name in hot topics all over the media. Volquez not so much.


Not to mention the Rangers team record since the trade has improved tremendously.

Look up Hamilton's stat line this year. It isn't impressive. And he's missed time with injuries, just like he has in his first two seasons. I don't care if he's on ESPN. I don't care that he gets a lot of press because of his story, however compelling it may be. I stand by my assertion that he will not be able to stay healthy the remainder of his career, and I'm fairly sure that I will be correct. Again, he hasn't been very good this year even when he's been healthy; he certainly didn't deserve the All-Star nod. Bottom line, neither guy would've helped much this year.

You're right about one thing, though: Josh Hamilton is very talented. Probably more talented than anyone to enter the game since A-Rod, and it's a shame that drugs probably cut that career in half. To be able to come back and do what he's done after being out of the game 3-4 years is simply astonishing.

[bgwilly31]

Look up Hamilton's stat line this year. It isn't impressive. And he's missed time with injuries, just like he has in his first two seasons. I don't care if he's on ESPN. I don't care that he gets a lot of press because of his story, however compelling it may be. I stand by my assertion that he will not be able to stay healthy the remainder of his career, and I'm fairly sure that I will be correct. Again, he hasn't been very good this year even when he's been healthy; he certainly didn't deserve the All-Star nod. Bottom line, neither guy would've helped much this year.

You're right about one thing, though: Josh Hamilton is very talented. Probably more talented than anyone to enter the game since A-Rod, and it's a shame that drugs probably cut that career in half. To be able to come back and do what he's done after being out of the game 3-4 years is simply astonishing.

You basically say a player isnt worth having because of your prediction of injuries.

You could say the same thing about our new tommy jon man. And actually you would make much more sense to say that.

Josh hamilton's value Right now. Is Much much MUCH higher than volquez value is.

[JWP]

Josh hamilton's value Right now. Is Much much MUCH higher than volquez value is.

I won't deny your claim that Hamilton is certainly a bigger star, a bigger name, than Volquez is. Part of that is because Hamilton is immensely talented, and part of that is of his road to the big leagues.

You've heard people talk about how Hamilton's history with drugs makes him much more fragile than someone his age normally would be. That's true. He's an old twenty eight, physically and chemically. Physically because the drugs have made his body naturally more frail over time, chemically because they've changed how his brain triggers the release of certain hormones within his body (some of which help to repair muscles, protein synthesis, etc.). Those are problems that are going to stay with him for the rest of his career.

Now, you could argue that Volquez's problems are going to stay with him for the rest of his career because he's a pitcher, and pitchers have elbow problems because pretty much every one of them get them sometime. Well, modern medicine is a pretty magnificent thing. Certainly the Tommy John procedure has a long layoff/rehab time, but as far as surgeries go, it's about as sure a thing as is out there. I've read articles that peg the success rate (that is, the odds of a pitcher making a full recovery without loss of stuff) anywhere from 85 (http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/2003-07-28-cover-tommy-john_x.htm) to 90% (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=3486). So, if we go by the odds (and baseball is all about probabilities), then we could say that Volquez's problems are much more likely to be temporary than Hamilton's.

Now I admit that it's not a sure thing by any stretch, but you parading around, dubbing him "Mr. Tommy John" like he's facing an impossible recovery that no pitcher has ever completed is maddening. So is all of this talk about how he's definitely going to return with the stuff of a fifth starter. Yeah, it could happen, but the dude had Cy Young quality stuff before the surgery, and he's not likely to fall off that far after it.

[bgwilly31]

I won't deny your claim that Hamilton is certainly a bigger star, a bigger name, than Volquez is. Part of that is because Hamilton is immensely talented, and part of that is of his road to the big leagues.

You've heard people talk about how Hamilton's history with drugs makes him much more fragile than someone his age normally would be. That's true. He's an old twenty eight, physically and chemically. Physically because the drugs have made his body naturally more frail over time, chemically because they've changed how his brain triggers the release of certain hormones within his body (some of which help to repair muscles, protein synthesis, etc.). Those are problems that are going to stay with him for the rest of his career.

Now, you could argue that Volquez's problems are going to stay with him for the rest of his career because he's a pitcher, and pitchers have elbow problems because pretty much every one of them get them sometime. Well, modern medicine is a pretty magnificent thing. Certainly the Tommy John procedure has a long layoff/rehab time, but as far as surgeries go, it's about as sure a thing as is out there. I've read articles that peg the success rate (that is, the odds of a pitcher making a full recovery without loss of stuff) anywhere from 85 (http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/2003-07-28-cover-tommy-john_x.htm) to 90% (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=3486). So, if we go by the odds (and baseball is all about probabilities), then we could say that Volquez's problems are much more likely to be temporary than Hamilton's.

Now I admit that it's not a sure thing by any stretch, but you parading around, dubbing him "Mr. Tommy John" like he's facing an impossible recovery that no pitcher has ever completed is maddening. So is all of this talk about how he's definitely going to return with the stuff of a fifth starter. Yeah, it could happen, but the dude had Cy Young quality stuff before the surgery, and he's not likely to fall off that far after it.

Right.... but your talking to a guy that hated the trade before hand.

And now knowing that Volquez would be basically USELESS to this team for 2 out of the first 3 years after the trade. And then on top of that have possibilities of never returning the same player.

Rubs salt in the wound that we lost Hamilton. Especially when you look at this team's offensive struggles have paralized them into bottom of the barrel quality.


Argue the lineup i made above and tell me that team doesnt look much better than what were putting out now and for the next year.

[George Foster]

Never should have traded Hamilton for this guy. He has bad mechanics.

I agree. I think his throwing motion resembles how Rob Dibble threw...same result.

It's funny how the pitchers with the best mechanics have the longest careers.

Nolan Ryan....Tom Seaver....Steve Carlton....Jim Bunning....Roger Clemons.

[Girevik]

Why does everyone want Josh Hamilton back so badly?


Because last year he was the media darling and his name was all over the place. Since we don't see ESPN talking about what kind of year he's having, everyone still associates him with the Cinderella player from last year.

There's a reason he wasn't in the All-Star home run derby this year.

[Orodle]

I agree. I think his throwing motion resembles how Rob Dibble threw...same result.

It's funny how the pitchers with the best mechanics have the longest careers.

Nolan Ryan....Tom Seaver....Steve Carlton....Jim Bunning....Roger Clemons.

There are also many pitchers with great mechanics that are hurt a lot too. When Mark Prior came out of college many praised his perfect mechanics, but as soon as his injuries started all of a sudden people were saying he had poor mechanics.

[bgwilly31]

Because last year he was the media darling and his name was all over the place. Since we don't see ESPN talking about what kind of year he's having, everyone still associates him with the Cinderella player from last year.

There's a reason he wasn't in the All-Star home run derby this year.

Get real. many of us here were HUGE hamilton fans when he still played here.

[Girevik]

That's not my point....what I'm saying is that what everyone remembers is the numbers he put up when he was always getting the press. Now that he's not playing well (when he is even playing), he's fallen off everyone's radar and the memory that persists is the monster we saw at last year's all star game.

When evaluating the trade today, there is a tendancy to compare THAT Hamilton vs. the Volques that is hurt today.

[bgwilly31]

right. And that monster is gone and will never be seen again.

He's coming off some injury that might be still lingering before and after the injury.

And possibly a slump.

Im not going to argue with you that hamilton is a career .220 hitter. Thats just absurd.

[Girevik]

Im not going to argue with you that hamilton is a career .220 hitter. Thats just absurd.

What that directed at me, or in general? I don't think I ever said anything like that.

[bgwilly31]

What that directed at me, or in general? I don't think I ever said anything like that.

Thats what your insinuating. With this look at hamiltons numbers now stuff.

[Girevik]

Not at all. The question I answered was "why does everyone want Hamilton back despite his bad numbers for this year". My opinion is that it's because everyone has stuck in their minds the guy that hit in the home run derby last year and aren't looking at what he did before or since. I didn't mean give any kind of opinion on what I thought he might do over the next 5 years (which is what you really have to look at to evaluate a trade).