NY Times article about Cincinnati stadiums

[macro]

The article focuses on the negatives of building the stadiums and fails to consider the negatives of not building them. There would probably be no NFL team in the city and the Reds might not be in Hamilton County.

So, what do you think? Was it worth it? What would the riverfront look like today, otherwise?


December 25, 2009

Stadium Boom Deepens Municipal Woes
By KEN BELSON (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/b/ken_belson/index.html?inline=nyt-per)

CINCINNATI — Years after a wave of construction brought publicly financed stadiums costing billions of dollars to cities across the country, taxpayers are once again being asked to reach into their pockets.

From New Jersey to Ohio to Arizona, the stadiums were sold as a key to redevelopment and as the only way to retain sports franchises. But the deals that were used to persuade taxpayers to finance their construction have in many cases backfired, the result of overly optimistic revenue assumptions and the recession.

Nowhere is the problem more acute than in Cincinnati. In 1996, voters in Hamilton County approved an increase of half of one percent in the sales tax that promised to build and maintain stadiums for the Bengals (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/sports/profootball/nationalfootballleague/cincinnatibengals/index.html?inline=nyt-org) and the Reds, pay Cincinnati’s public schools and give homeowners an annual property tax rebate. The stadiums were supposed to spur development of the city’s dilapidated riverfront.

But sales tax receipts have fallen so fast in the last year that the county is now scrambling to bridge a $14 million deficit in its sales tax fund. The public schools, which deferred taking their share for years, want their money.

The teams have not volunteered to rewrite their leases. So in the coming weeks, the county plans to cut basic services, lower its legal bills and drain a bond reserve fund with no plan for paying it back.

“Anyone looking at this objectively knows it’s a train wreck,” said Dusty Rhodes, the county auditor. “I told them they were making a big mistake, but they didn’t want to hear me.”

Cincinnati is hardly alone. In Indianapolis, the Capital Improvement Board spent 2009 trying to find $32 million (http://www.indy.com/posts/city-may-privatize-stadium-convention-center-operations) to run the Lucas Oil Stadium and convention center. In Milwaukee, a drop in sales tax receipts may delay by several years the date for paying off the bonds issued to build Miller Park, the home of the Brewers.

Columbus, Ohio, is considering using public money to keep the Blue Jackets (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/sports/hockey/nationalhockeyleague/columbusbluejackets/index.html?inline=nyt-org) in town. Glendale, Ariz., has fought to hold the Phoenix Coyotes (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/sports/hockey/nationalhockeyleague/phoenixcoyotes/index.html?inline=nyt-org) to their long-term lease. In New Jersey, a ticket surcharge (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/10/sports/10jersey.html) may be added to help resolve a tenant-landlord dispute between the Devils (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/sports/hockey/nationalhockeyleague/newjerseydevils/index.html?inline=nyt-org) and Newark.

Mark Rosentraub, the author of the book “Major League Losers (http://www.amazon.com/Major-League-Losers-Sports-Paying/dp/0465071430),” said that many of the stadium deals included “revenue bombs,” with financial traps like balloon payments on debt in later years and sweeteners like the Hamilton County property tax rebate to win public support.

In many cases, the architects of the deals are long gone by the time the bill comes due.

“This is one of the effects of the economic tsunami sweeping through,” Rosentraub said of the deficits.

The 1996 proposal to build stadiums for the Bengals and the Reds had plenty of proponents. The economy was growing, Riverfront Stadium was outdated and the Bengals were hinting that they would move, as the Browns had done.

The plan went awry almost from the start. The football stadium exceeded its budget by $50 million, forcing the county to issue more bonds. Forecasts for growth in the sales tax turned out to be too rosy. The teams received sweetheart leases. In 2000, voters threw out the county commissioners who cut the deal.

That year the sales tax grew 1.8 percent, the first of many years below the 3 percent forecast. Both stadiums were originally expected to cost $500 million combined. Yet Paul Brown Stadium alone cost $455 million and the Great American Ballpark, the Reds’ home a few hundred yards down the Ohio River, cost $337 million by the time it opened in 2003.

The generous deal for the Bengals has been a sore spot. The team had to pay rent only through 2009 on its 26-year lease, and has to cover the cost of running the stadium only for game days. Starting in 2017, the county will reimburse the team for these costs, too. The county will pay $8.5 million this year to keep the stadium going.

Link to read the rest of the article:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/25/sports/25stadium.html?_r=1

[traderumor]

I see the biggest opportunity here as continuing to develop the riverfront. I know money is tight for everyone, but there is so much opportunity to turn that into its own community that will attract tourist dollars.

If you build something distinctive down there where people can hang out and spend money on a game day, or on a weekend, then everyone wins, including the Reds, who have higher attendance. Right now, there is nothing for us out of towners to do before or after the game but drive in and get in your car and leave either for a hotel in the suburbs or catch a day game and drive back home. More people staying downtown means more sales and bed taxes to the county.

We love Cincy and would like to spend a couple of days down there and catch a few ballgames, but who wants to get in their car and drive all over the countryside for activities?

[Caveat Emperor]

So, what do you think? Was it worth it? What would the riverfront look like today, otherwise?

It'd be a muddy hole in the ground, the same way it is now and the same way it will be 5 years from now.

This Banks project is a total pipe dream that is destined to either never make it off the ground or, if it does, be so half-assed and poorly done that it'll be vacant within a decade.

Cincinnati is incapable of doing anything properly at a civic level. It's run by people who are worried about what people might think and cowing to loudmothed morons like Christopher Smitherman and Chris Finney as opposed to making smart decisions. I wouldn't trust the mayor and city council to run a Big Boy, much less a major metropolitan city. Same goes for the county commissioners.

In a way, this article made me long for the days of Bob Bedinghaus -- who at least made a decision (even if it was terrible) and paid for it with his job. The current crop of people all just refuse to act. They won't raise taxes because it might cost them votes. They won't rollback tax credits because it might cost them votes. They won't cut pet projects because it might cost them votes. It's just decision paralysis while the county drifts towards disaster.

[hebroncougar]

I thought the stadium deals at the time were a huge sham. Heck, the owners put up nothing, and got everything. And the Reds cry broke all the time. I do have to give the Bengals some credit, they locked up Palmer, and they do pay for players on occasion.

[Roy Tucker]

I still maintain that the City/County screwed the pooch by building GABP on the Banks instead of Broadway Commons.

Like CE said, the Banks is a pipe dream and the version I saw in the paper a couple weeks ago looked very watered down and won't amount to anything.

And instead, we'll have a Biff World casino on Broadway Commons that will generate untold controversy.

bah.

[westofyou]

My buddy from Oakland went to Paul Brown Stadium last weekend and said it put the Raiders and the Niners joints to shame.

[Caveat Emperor]

My buddy from Oakland went to Paul Brown Stadium last weekend and said it put the Raiders and the Niners joints to shame.

It's a beautiful facility. I've watched games from the stands and from a luxury box -- both experiences are fantastic. It's one of the few football stadiums I've ever seen that actually has an interesting look to it.

But, it is what it is: a building that gets used 11-12 times per year.

[Cyclone792]

My buddy from Oakland went to Paul Brown Stadium last weekend and said it put the Raiders and the Niners joints to shame.

Both stadiums are really nice, especially since Cast started pouring a little bit of money and personality into GABP when he bought the team. GABP is now starting to take on the look and feel that it should have had all along right from the beginning (well except for the quality product on the field), but better late than never, I suppose.

I hope the Banks ends up fairly nice, but like CE I'm skeptical and pretty much consider that project a type of "I'll believe it when I see it" deal.

If nothing else, when that Moerlein Lager House goes up then it'll at least give me a pretty sweet spot to hang out and drink beer prior to Reds games during the summer without having to cross the bridge to Newport. The current downtown options near the ballpark are rather uninspiring.

[AtomicDumpling]

The stadiums turned out very nice. That is the good part.

The decision to build the stadiums was the correct one. The decision to build them on the riverfront was the wrong one.

The riverfront acreage was very expensive, which drove up the cost of the stadiums. But the most important reason not to build on the riverfront was because that location destroyed most of the economic benefit to Hamilton County. The riverfront is basically an island isolated from the rest of the city and county. Because of the river and the freeway there was no room around the stadiums to build any businesses or adequate parking.

In most cities there are many bars, restaurants and other businesses built right next to the stadiums that capitalize on all those people coming to the games. In Cincinnati that has not happened. Here people drive in to the city, park in a garage, watch the game and leave. There is very little economic benefit to the community derived from the sports teams -- and much of the reason for that is the location of the stadiums. It was doomed to failure from the start because of the poorly considered decision to build the stadiums in the worst possible location.

A good portion of the limited economic spin-off now goes to northern Kentucky, whose residents refused to contribute any funds to help build the stadiums. I think those economic benefits should go to the residents of Hamilton County because they were the ones that did the right thing and agreed to a tax increase to pay for the stadiums.

Since the people of Hamilton County are the only ones that stepped up to the plate to pay for the stadiums, they are the people that should have benefited from the economic spin-off. One stadium should have been built at Broadway Commons, where there was a lot of surrounding space available to build businesses that could have capitalized on the traffic and benefited the community with increased tax revenue. The other stadium should have been built in the center of Hamilton County somewhere where there is easier access than the downtown/riverfront fiasco we have now.

I never understood the logic of putting stadiums next to the river. The city would be much more attractive with green space, park land, museums and amusement parks next to the river. Now we just have miles of ugly concrete parking lots, garages and run-down old buildings along the river.

People will go to stadiums no matter where they are. We wasted a great resource (the riverfront) just to build two big stadiums that have nothing to do with the river. Stadiums around the country have been built in places where they revitalized urban areas and communities. We chose to build ours in a spot where there was zero chance of revitalizing anything.

We got two great stadiums, but we could have gotten so much more.

[Reds4Life]

I wish PBS had a little more color to it. It's basically just concrete and green seats and padding.

[flyer85]

a dumb idea to begin with. If building these extravagant stadium was such a good idea then teams would finance them on their own.

The county walked out on a limb and now seems surprised by how things have played out. I have zero sympathy for the county and the folks that let themselves be fooled into building stadiums for millionaires so could stuff their coffers with even more dollars.

[George Anderson]

A good portion of the limited economic spin-off now goes to northern Kentucky, whose residents refused to contribute any funds to help build the stadiums. .

I don't think I have ever spent one nickel anywhere in Cincinnati prior to a game. I stay over the river in KY and spend all my money over there. It's just better over there than in Cincy.

[dougdirt]

I thought the stadium deals at the time were a huge sham. Heck, the owners put up nothing, and got everything. And the Reds cry broke all the time. I do have to give the Bengals some credit, they locked up Palmer, and they do pay for players on occasion.

The Bengals have a salary floor that they must meet and a cap teams can't go over. If Baseball had that then teams would lock up legit talent and not just 3 or 4 teams could compete for the best talents in the league.


It's a beautiful facility. I've watched games from the stands and from a luxury box -- both experiences are fantastic. It's one of the few football stadiums I've ever seen that actually has an interesting look to it.

But, it is what it is: a building that gets used 11-12 times per year.
It gets used a little more than that. There are some concerts held there throughout the year. High school football games a few times a year. Still, its probably empty 330 times a year.

[Caveat Emperor]

a dumb idea to begin with. If building these extravagant stadium was such a good idea then teams would finance them on their own.

If Cincinnati didn't do it, Los Angeles, San Antonio, Sacramento, etc. would have.

Of course, if you don't care about having pro sports teams in your city, you can always take the view of "Screw it, let them go." But, that was an option that most people found somewhat unsavory.

[traderumor]

If Cincinnati didn't do it, Los Angeles, San Antonio, Sacramento, etc. would have.

Of course, if you don't care about having pro sports teams in your city, you can always take the view of "Screw it, let them go." But, that was an option that most people found somewhat unsavory.I think Cincinnati realizes that its pro sports is the primary attraction for the Queen City in the grand scheme of things and that losing it would be a bigger disaster than the current shortfall.

[KronoRed]

A good portion of the limited economic spin-off now goes to northern Kentucky, whose residents refused to contribute any funds to help build the stadiums.

I'm sorry, but I don't remember there ever being any talk of having Northern Kentucky help with the stadiums, their certainly was never a vote by the "residents".

As for the stadiums, the county should have told the Bengals to take a hike and only dealt with the Reds.

[dougdirt]

I'm sorry, but I don't remember there ever being any talk of having Northern Kentucky help with the stadiums, their certainly was never a vote by the "residents".

As for the stadiums, the county should have told the Bengals to take a hike and only dealt with the Reds.

They still benefit greatly because of the screwups that Cincinnati has had since the stadiums have been built. I go to 20+ Reds games a year. I park in Newport because its cheaper. So does everyone I know. While there are plenty of people who do park in Cincinnati, there are still a good number of people who park in Newport for games and spend money before and after the games at the bars/restaurants over there. When me and the friends go out to bars, we wind up in Kentucky at a 10-1 rate over downtown Cincinnati. If there were something between the stadiums I think Cincinnati would start seeing a decent boost in revenue while Northern Kentucky would take a hit. Instead its been 7-10 years of nothing in Cincinnati.

[AtomicDumpling]

I don't think I have ever spent one nickel anywhere in Cincinnati prior to a game. I stay over the river in KY and spend all my money over there. It's just better over there than in Cincy.


They still benefit greatly because of the screwups that Cincinnati has had since the stadiums have been built. I go to 20+ Reds games a year. I park in Newport because its cheaper. So does everyone I know. While there are plenty of people who do park in Cincinnati, there are still a good number of people who park in Newport for games and spend money before and after the games at the bars/restaurants over there. When me and the friends go out to bars, we wind up in Kentucky at a 10-1 rate over downtown Cincinnati. If there were something between the stadiums I think Cincinnati would start seeing a decent boost in revenue while Northern Kentucky would take a hit. Instead its been 7-10 years of nothing in Cincinnati.

Exactly. I do the same thing.

This is an example of just how monumentally stupid it was to build the stadiums where they did. It is easier and more fun for people who live in Ohio to drive to another state to park, eat and drink then walk across a long windy bridge back into Ohio to watch the game. Then walk back across the bridge with thousands of other people to eat and drink again before driving back into Ohio to go home. The fans spend their money in Kentucky. Kentucky gets the revenue. Ohio taxpayers foot the bill for the stadium.

If you want to spend your money in downtown Cincinnati you have to walk across the freeway bridge, walk up a steep hill past blocks of parking garages and seemingly abandoned buildings and mingle with lots of unsavory and dangerous characters before you reach any decent places to eat or drink. And you get to pay $10 or more to park your car instead of the $2-$3 you pay in Kentucky.

It is faster, safer, easier, cheaper and more fun to park, eat and drink in Kentucky than in Cincinnati.

Hamilton county taxpayers might as well have built the two new stadiums on the other side of the river. It probably would have been cheaper and then at least we would still have an uncluttered riverfront to develop into something nice.

If they had built the stadiums far from the river maybe they would have generated the economic boon we were promised before we approved the tax hike.

[Chip R]

My buddy from Oakland went to Paul Brown Stadium last weekend and said it put the Raiders and the Niners joints to shame.

I would hope so since both Bay Area facilities are over 30 years old.

[Caveat Emperor]

I've never paid more than $2 to park for a Reds game in the last 5 years, and I've never once parked in KY.

[Chip R]

I've never paid more than $2 to park for a Reds game in the last 5 years, and I've never once parked in KY.


I usually park at the Westin where on weekends and evenings it's only $3 up from $1 as recently as a couple of years ago.

[KronoRed]

They still benefit greatly because of the screwups that Cincinnati has had since the stadiums have been built.

Perhaps, though I think quite a few people do park and eat in Cincy, but the original statement was Kentucky had rejected helping with the stadiums which is simply not true, they were never asked, nor was Clermont county or Butler county though quite a few people go to Reds games from there. ;)

Besides if there was this huge boom to be had Ovation in Newport wouldn't be stuck in neutral and the Levee wouldn't be losing tenants left and right, I just don't think that is the reason Hamilton county is having trouble.

[AtomicDumpling]

Perhaps, though I think quite a few people do park and eat in Cincy, but the original statement was Kentucky had rejected helping with the stadiums which is simply not true, they were never asked, nor was Clermont county or Butler county though quite a few people go to Reds games from there. ;)


The residents of northern Kentucky and other surrounding areas were definitely asked to help with the stadiums. Just because it never got on the ballot doesn't mean they were not asked. It never got to the ballot because it was quite obvious those people did not want to help.

I remember the years when the politicians were debating what should be done and how to do it. They tried very hard to get several local governments, county governments and the state governments to pitch in some funds to help build the stadiums and keep the Reds and Bengals in the area. The only people that stepped up to the plate were the people of Hamilton county. Everybody else was content to sit back and enjoy the benefits of having major league teams here while not doing their fair share to make it possible.

I can't say I blame them though. The Hamilton county government was foolish enough to foot the entire bill while placing the stadiums where other people would reap a large portion of the economic benefits. Now they complain they can't pay the bill. Well, duh. That was a situation they should have foreseen and could have avoided if they had acted more responsibly.

[Newport Red]

The residents of northern Kentucky and other surrounding areas were definitely asked to help with the stadiums. Just because it never got on the ballot doesn't mean they were not asked. It never got to the ballot because it was quite obvious those people did not want to help.

I remember the years when the politicians were debating what should be done and how to do it. They tried very hard to get several local governments, county governments and the state governments to pitch in some funds to help build the stadiums and keep the Reds and Bengals in the area. The only people that stepped up to the plate were the people of Hamilton county. Everybody else was content to sit back and enjoy the benefits of having major league teams here while not doing their fair share to make it possible.

I can't say I blame them though. The Hamilton county government was foolish enough to foot the entire bill while placing the stadiums where other people would reap a large portion of the economic benefits. Now they complain they can't pay the bill. Well, duh. That was a situation they should have foreseen and could have avoided if they had acted more responsibly.

I remember the idea was floated to share the burden with the surrounding counties. I doubt Clermont, Warren or Montgomery county residents would vote to sent their tax money to Hamilton County. Although I wasn't in Kentucky at the time, I certainly wouldn't vote to send my money to Ohio.

[KronoRed]

I remember the idea was floated to share the burden with the surrounding counties. I doubt Clermont, Warren or Montgomery county residents would vote to sent their tax money to Hamilton County. Although I wasn't in Kentucky at the time, I certainly wouldn't vote to send my money to Ohio.

Nor would Hamilton county voters approved a stadium in Kentucky even if it was right across the river.

But again, there was no vote or even a public opinion poll that I remember, I'm sorry if i come across smitey but saying that "the residents made it clear" just isn't good enough for me, no one asked me :cool:

Anyway, in 25 years we won't have to worry, the Dayton Reds will need us all :D

[Newport Red]

Nor would Hamilton county voters approved a stadium in Kentucky even if it was right across the river.

But again, there was no vote or even a public opinion poll that I remember, I'm sorry if i come across smitey but saying that "the residents made it clear" just isn't good enough for me, no one asked me :cool:

Anyway, in 25 years we won't have to worry, the Dayton Reds will need us all :D

No smite taken.:)
The idea was such a non-starter that no one was going to put it on the ballot.

Maybe they'll be playing at Champion Field in Florence.

[Blimpie]

Hamilton county taxpayers might as well have built the two new stadiums on the other side of the river. It probably would have been cheaper and then at least we would still have an uncluttered riverfront to develop into something nice.I agree. We already have the airport... so, why the hell not?

[Reds4Life]

There isn't much in downtown Cincinnati to keep people on this side of the river. Plus, there are large parts of downtown where you need to wear body armor.

A lot of the development on the Levee Cincinnati could have had. The city wasn't willing to grant the tax incentives to the developers, so they looked elsewhere. They have nobody to blame but themselves. The idea of building the Underground Railroad museum, on probably the most prime piece of property on the riverfront, was the dumbest decision they have ever made. That would have been perfect for restaurants and other things, but instead they bungled it, in typical Cincinnati fashion.

I've been a life long Hamilton County resident. Within the next coupe years, I'm probably moving to Kentucky. The property taxes here are getting out of control, and will continue to go higher thanks to the inept local government.

[NJReds]

This is an example of just how monumentally stupid it was to build the stadiums where they did. It is easier and more fun for people who live in Ohio to drive to another state to park, eat and drink then walk across a long windy bridge back into Ohio to watch the game. Then walk back across the bridge with thousands of other people to eat and drink again before driving back into Ohio to go home. The fans spend their money in Kentucky. Kentucky gets the revenue. Ohio taxpayers foot the bill for the stadium.

I can attest to this. I've taken three trips into Cincinnati to see a weekend series. The first time I stayed downtown. The next two times I stayed in Kentucky and except for the game didn't spend a dime in Ohio. It was cheaper and more convenient.

[hebroncougar]

The residents of northern Kentucky and other surrounding areas were definitely asked to help with the stadiums. Just because it never got on the ballot doesn't mean they were not asked. It never got to the ballot because it was quite obvious those people did not want to help.

I remember the years when the politicians were debating what should be done and how to do it. They tried very hard to get several local governments, county governments and the state governments to pitch in some funds to help build the stadiums and keep the Reds and Bengals in the area. The only people that stepped up to the plate were the people of Hamilton county. Everybody else was content to sit back and enjoy the benefits of having major league teams here while not doing their fair share to make it possible.

I can't say I blame them though. The Hamilton county government was foolish enough to foot the entire bill while placing the stadiums where other people would reap a large portion of the economic benefits. Now they complain they can't pay the bill. Well, duh. That was a situation they should have foreseen and could have avoided if they had acted more responsibly.

That's comical. How about residents from Hamilton County pay some extra tax to benefit the airport over here in NKY? How would that go over?

[camisadelgolf]

PBS is one of the best stadiums in all of sports, but having the county pay so much for it was just stupid. Mike Brown should be convicted of theft.

[Reds4Life]

PBS is one of the best stadiums in all of sports, but having the county pay so much for it was just stupid. Mike Brown should be convicted of theft.

Beddinghaus should be in jail for fraud. Instead he got a nice cushy job with the Bengals. Geez, wonder why? :rolleyes:

[Yachtzee]

Without those stadiums, Cincinnati is essentially Toledo, a AAA town. Cincinnati never ran with the momentum of building the stadiums to get the Banks project built and only have themselves to blame.

Meanwhile, I wonder how the folks at the NY Times would feel about the NFL, MLB, NBA and NHL pooling all local revenues and then providing the funds for teams to build stadiums themselves in conjunction with revenue sharing so that no team has to ask for public money again. I know it would never happen because the leagues like the flexibility of playing cities off one another. However, its easy for a city with teams that have huge piles of cash to build their own parks to criticize places like Cincinnati for using public funds to build such stadiums without looking at the consequences of not building the stadiums. Not everyone has the luxury of playing in the NYC market. I think Hamilton Co. voters were more concerned about a future without major league sports than they were about how much revenues these places would generate.

[Redsfan320]

The thing about Cincy's stadiums.. they're plain. Really, really plain. PBS and GABP
Never been to PBS, but from the outside: white steel, green seats.Blech.
GABP: Concrete, and even more white steel. I don't mind the red seats, but still. I love the green steel at Atlanta's Turner Field. Wish Cincy would do something at least slightly unique with their stadiums.

320

[traderumor]

PBS is one of the best stadiums in all of sports, but having the county pay so much for it was just stupid. Mike Brown should be convicted of theft.He will when the owners of companies given tax abatements to relocate do. Greed goes both directions. If they didn't think it would benefit them, they wouldn't have done it. Maybe its more like they deserve each other.

[KronoRed]

I agree. We already have the airport... so, why the hell not?

Sounds good.

In all honestly if the river is 20 miles farther south then I don't think anyone really cares, remember folks northern Kentucky is just as much part of the metro Cincinnati area as Norwood or Anderson township.

[Hoosier Red]

The thing about Cincy's stadiums.. they're plain. Really, really plain. PBS and GABP
Never been to PBS, but from the outside: white steel, green seats.Blech.
GABP: Concrete, and even more white steel. I don't mind the red seats, but still. I love the green steel at Atlanta's Turner Field. Wish Cincy would do something at least slightly unique with their stadiums.

320

I forget the exact magazine/journal but some architectural magazine ranked PBS as one of only two stadiums to crack the top 100 buildings in the world. The other stadium was the Bird's nest in Beijing.

[Redsfan320]

I forget the exact magazine/journal but some architectural magazine ranked PBS as one of only two stadiums to crack the top 100 buildings in the world. The other stadium was the Bird's nest in Beijing.

Probably cause it's got it's got that bit of a curve around the top. :rolleyes:
Whoever made this list should be fired. ;)

320

[macro]

I forget the exact magazine/journal but some architectural magazine ranked PBS as one of only two stadiums to crack the top 100 buildings in the world. The other stadium was the Bird's nest in Beijing.

Hoosier, you may be thinking about this list:

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=54585