Bengals 2010 pt. I

[Sea Ray]

My fear is that Mike Brown will look at this year and say it was a success and feel that no changes are needed for 2010. That would be a huge mistake.

An absolute "must change" for this team is its offensive coordinator. This team's offensive woes go beyond injuries, schemes and even seasons. This O has been woeful for 3 years now. Marvin will say that they got back to basics and decided to do one thing well: run the ball.

Well, OK, if you're going to be unimaginative and predictable then you'd better be flawless in that specialized area and the Bengals weren't. They still could not execute a boring playbook well. They led the league in offensive penalties. They jumped offsides, they held, they had delay of games...This all reflects on the OC. They have a lot of money tied up in offensive players. This O should be better.

On the passing side of the ball, Carson is locking onto one receiver way too much and Bratkowski did a horrible job "getting receivers open". Yesterday Sanchez looked at one receiver like you'd expect a rookie to do and generally he had some wide open guys to throw to. They threw some new plays at us. What new play did you see from the Bengals?

Far amd away this is the most important change for 2010 and if MB and Marvin don't see it let's hope Carson does. I hope Carson makes it loud and clear that he wants no part in a dink and dunk offense. That might be our only hope for change.

[Joseph]

Looking at some early mock draft projections....

Damian Williams, WR, USC
-The Bengals have one top WR so I have them taking another guy to play opposite Ocho Cinco. Williams is a pretty big WR with a good frame and good hands. Look for him to be a first rounder in the 2010 NFL Draft. I have him going to the Bengals because I think he will fit in well with their scheme and help balance their offense out.

TE Jermaine Gresham, OKlahoma
-Gresham is an elite tight end and if would have stayed healthy might have been a top 10 selection in the 2010 NFL Draft.

-In recent years the Bengals have accumulated a lot of young defensive talent, using four consecutive first round picks on that side of the ball from 2005-2008 plus second and third rounders last year. Perhaps now it’s time to help out the offense. Cincinnati has been searching for a pass catching threat at tight end for years but with little or no luck. Granted they just drafted Chase Coffman last year but his inability to get on the field and make an impact even though the Bengals were decimated by injuries at the tight end position speaks volumes. Oklahoma’s Jermaine Gresham might have been the first tight end selected in the 2009 NFL Draft had he come out early and he entered this season as a potential Top 15 overall pick. Unfortunately a knee injury wiped out Gresham’s senior campaign but he still has time to recover and to re-establish himself as a first round pick. A great athlete who in many ways is a wide receiver in a tight end’s body, Gresham has excellent hands, terrific ball skills and body control and the ability to stretch the field vertically. Not only would Gresham finally give Cincy a true playmaker at tight end but he’d also help open things up for the rest of the Bengals offense. Cincinnati also needs an upgrade at safety, where Chris Crocker, Roy Williams and Chinedum Ndukwe leave something to be desired, and a premier talent at defensive tackle could be a possibility as well.

Jared Odrick, DT, Penn St
-Penn State’s Jared Odrick really kicked his game up a notch as a senior and has put himself in contention for a spot in the first round. A great athlete who is very quick off the snap and gets a lot of penetration, Odrick is a classic three-technique.

DE Carlos Dunlap (Florida)
-Someone is going to jump on Dunlap in the first round. There are issues that have to be hashed out, but the Bengals scored big time drafting defenders with red flags in 2009. Adding him could make their defense downright scary assuming he pans out and stays out of trouble.

Brandon LaFell, WR, LSU
-Aside from a fluky blowout over the Bears, the Bengals haven't scored more than 24 points in a single game since Oct. 4. Part of the problem is the lack of a competent No. 2 receiver across from Chad Ochocinco. In the wake of Chris Henry's passing, the wide receiver position is more of a need than ever for Cincinnati.


I'm hoping the sophomore Texas safety Earl Thomas is available when we pick. I think he could be like Ed Reed or whatever.

[yab1112]

With Kelly coming back and Coffman only being a a rookie, I think they should wait until a later round if they feel the need to draft a tight end. Whether the reason Coffman didn't see the field this season was a nagging injury or failure to learn the offense (or both), those are both things that will get better with time. This kid was a big time talent in college. You have to give him at least one more year.

Assuming they don't add someone though FA, they need to go WR with the first pick. That being said - I like LaFell.

[CTA513]

Look what Zimmer did with the players he had and look what Bratkowski did with the players he had.

Thats all I need to look at to see which coach needs to go and which needs to stay.

[Sea Ray]

My guess is if they pick a WR #1 it'll be Golden Tate, ND

[Redsfaithful]

Willie Anderson said on Twitter that Marvin wanted to bring in Hue Jackson last year to be OC, but he was told he couldn't fire any offensive coaches.

Presumably by Mike Brown, and presumably because Brown didn't want to pay the rest of Brat's contract. If that's true it just shows why the Bengals will never be consistently good as long as Mike Brown is running the team, he's too much of a liability.

If that's true I also expect Marvin to leave when his deal is over, he has to be beyond frustrated by now.

[CTA513]

My guess is if they pick a WR #1 it'll be Golden Tate, ND

I wouldn't be against drafting him but the Bengals seem to like big WRs and if I remember correctly it was the reason they passed up on Jackson to take Simpson.

[LoganBuck]

Tank Johnson, Roy Williams, and Shame Graham are the only real free agent losses that must be addressed. The needs in offensive playmaking are obvious.

My short list for the 2010 draft so far, in no particular order.

1. Taylor Mays (only if Mike Zimmer is here, he is perfect for Zimmer's scheme)
2. Terrance Cody
3. Arrelious Benn
4. Jermaine Gresham
5. Dez Bryant
6. Marvin Austin
7. Marty Gilyard

Areas of need for the Bengals WR, TE, DT, S, K

I would prefer to see the Bengals draft a TE later in the draft, a player like Jake Ballard from Ohio State springs to mind for a mid to late round pick.

[Oxilon]

I still think the biggest areas to address are in this order.
1) LT: I Don't like Whitworth at LT. He can't handle the speed rushers. Move him to LG, move Mathis to RG and say good-bye to Bobbie Williams (he's too old and I saw him whiff too many times this season).

2) WR: That Jerome Simpson pick is looking awfully horrible right now. We need somebody to play opposite of Chad. We could have had Desean Jackson but this is nothing new in Bungle Land. I like Caldwell in the slot though.

3) CB: Leon Hall and Joseph are a great, young tandem. However, JJ is going to be FAs after next season, with Hall a FA after next season. Trent is a good nickel back, but he's no starter. We need to get a CB because I hate starting a rookie CB.

4) Safety: Eh...they're just not that good. Crocker is alright. I really don't like Ndukwe all that much

[KoryMac5]

I would like either a WR or a TE in the first round. One of Gresham, Williams, and Lafell should be there when the Bengals pick in round 1. Gresham would be a steal in my opinion.

I don't buy the reports that Brown didn't want Brat gone because of eating a contract. Marvin would have quit on the spot if he lost control over picking his coaches for the team. That's one thing that is a deal breaker for a lot of coaches. Brat should be gone I don't know how the Bengals would keep him on after the offensive let down the team had this year. Mike Martz would be a nice option but I think Hue will be the pick. Team also needs to keep Zimmer on, he seems like a loyal guy who has grown close with this group of players.

[Redsfaithful]

I don't know that Marvin has ever had control of who his coaching staff is. I'd be surprised if he does have complete control, Brown is a micro-manager.

[The Operator]

You guys think there is any chance The Bengals make an offer to a guy like Brandon Marshall this offseason? It looks like he's worn his welcome out in Denver and with this being an uncapped year, they could cut bait with Coles or whoever to free some money up.

Getting a guy like Marshall would make WR a much less pressing need in the draft. But they have to do something. I'd also love to see Mardy Gilyard as a 2nd or 3rd rounder. But, The Bengals did pass up on DeSean Jackson because he was smaller than Jerome Simpson, so that probably means a no-go on Mardy. :(

[LoganBuck]

Marshall is essentially Chad Ochocinco but grumpy instead of a circus sideshow. Not really a deep threat. More of a YAC guy, like Chad.

[The Operator]

I know Marshall really isn't a deep guy, I'd just love to have a sure handed guy who can catch a ton of footballs. His attitude is a concern, but then again, so is the attitude of quite a few current Bengals. Winning usually cures that.

Here's me thinking out loud: What type of draft status does Tony Pike have? I know he's probably not first round material, but if he's available in the mid rounds I wouldn't mind at all if The Bengals picked him up. He's a tall guy with a good arm, and Carson isn't getting any younger. It'd be nice to have a competent backup, if nothing else.

[KoryMac5]

Most Mock's have Pike in the 2nd round. Scouts think he is a system QB that may or may not pan out. I think from the numbers I have seen 75% of QB's drafted in the 2nd round fail. it will depend on how he does at the combine he may move up as he has nice size for a QB.

I would imagine that Monday will be the day something shakes loose among the Bengals FO. Brat being let go is a possibility.

[Yachtzee]

It's too soon for me to think much beyond basically keep Zimmer, dump Brat and get Palmer someone to help him work out the kinks this offseason. Beyond that, I'm not going to worry about anything until the draft, then I'm going to forget about things until training camp opens.

[macro]

It's too soon for me to think much beyond basically keep Zimmer, dump Brat and get Palmer someone to help him work out the kinks this offseason. Beyond that, I'm not going to worry about anything until the draft, then I'm going to forget about things until training camp opens.

Nothing against the Bengals, but ignoring them and the entire NFL until the draft sounds like a pretty good plan.

[KoryMac5]

Brat's contract is indeed up at the end of this season. Expect Hue Jackson to be brought in as OC.

[Boss-Hog]

Brat's contract is indeed up at the end of this season. Expect Hue Jackson to be brought in as OC.
I'd be thrilled with that but I remain skeptical it will happen. I hope I'm wrong.

[KoryMac5]

From C Trent:


Jumped over to #Bengals presser after #Reds, Lewis says he's "confident" staff will stay intact, including Zimmer, Bratkowski

Can't say I am happy about Brat not being shown the door. However Marvin has stated this before and than fired Chuck and Leslie.

[KoryMac5]

Bengals mouthpiece Hobson chimes in:


Head coach Marvin Lewis said Monday he’s “very confident” the Bengals can retain free agent defensive coordinator Mike Zimmer while giving indications his staff is not going to change much in 2010.


Offensive coordinator Bob Bratkowski said Monday that as far as he knows he’s going to be back in the job for the 10th season. And as Lewis heads into the last year of his deal he said “I imagine” he’ll have talks with Bengals president Mike Brown about his own status beyond 2010.

Looks like more of the same. Mike Brown and his loyalty continues to keep Brat here for 10 yrs.

[Chip R]

Marvin apologized today for not winning that game.

http://www.wcpo.com/news/local/story/Lewis-Apologizes-For-Failing-To-Get-Playoff-Win/ldZ3g4bc2EuAMCZgZJnlNA.cspx?rss=703

[TeamSelig]

We do need some offensive help, but I'd like to see some great defensive players drafted somewhat early. Let's take something we were good at, and make it great. Offense should be alot easier to correct.

[redsfandan]

We do need some offensive help, but I'd like to see some great defensive players drafted somewhat early. Let's take something we were good at, and make it great. Offense should be alot easier to correct.
:confused:

If Zimmer is back and the Bengals get healthy the defense should be very good already. But, unless they do something with the offense, they could be just as erratic as they were this year. Using the first three picks like this ...
1) wr
2) db
3) te
... would make sense. But I'm just not sure it will be THAT easy to correct the offense. After Zimmer, the offense has to be the next priority imo.

[TeamSelig]

A new OC would make the offense better. Our running game is already very good. Just need a good catching TE and a WR with some sort of play making ability.

[redsfandan]

A new OC would make the offense better. Our running game is already very good. Just need a good catching TE and a WR with some sort of play making ability.
I agree but what are the chances that the Bengals get all three AND better production from Palmer compared to the chances that the defense is even better if they just get healthy and resign Zimmer?

If they just resign Zimmer they should be fine. The offense is another story altogether.

[camisadelgolf]

I hope the Bengals also draft a lineman who can actually pass block. The jury's still out on Andre Smith, but it was getting really frustrating watching the pocket collapse so often. They could potentially get an elite guard with their first pick.

[Matt700wlw]

Bengals.com

While head coach Marvin Lewis is “very confident” the Bengals can keep free agent defensive coordinator Mike Zimmer, the guy on other side of the ball is also grinding through the 2009 game tape to get ready for 2010.

On Monday, offensive coordinator Bob Bratkowski said he’s satisfied with the foundation of the playbook he overhauled with a running game makeover last offseason, but there is his wish list that every fan from Anderson Township to Zanesville already knows about the pass game:

More big plays from an offense that had one pass longer than 20 yards (and it was 21) in the last three games. More efficiency in a pass game that netted the lowest yards per attempt of Carson Palmer’s career at 6.64. More production in the red zone, where the Bengals failed on 20 of their last 28 possessions in the last nine games to score a touchdown.

Other topics Bratkowski touched on Monday:

» The no-name offensive line made a name for itself in the running game and improved in the pass game after a “shaky” start, but needs to improve in the protection game.

“Early on we went with the run game a little bit more trying to keep our quarterback healthy,” Bratkowski said. “But as a group, they played (well).”

» The numbers back up the argument that the passing game never recovered from the loss of wide receiver Chris Henry when he broke his arm in the Nov. 8 win against Baltimore.

That was at the halfway point, when the Bengals were 18-for-25 on TDs in the red zone, Palmer had 14 touchdown passes and six 200-yard passing days in the first eight games, slot receiver Andre Caldwell had 29 catches, three touchdowns and a long of 24 while Chad Ochocinco had 44 catches for five touchdowns.

In the final eight weeks, which included Henry’s death in a pickup truck accident while he was on injured reserve, Palmer had six TD passes and three 200-yard days, Caldwell had 22 catches with no touchdowns and a long ball of 17 while The Ocho had just 28 catches and four TDs.

“You don’t want to say you couldn’t overcome the loss of one player, but it’s obvious if you look at the numbers, it had an effect on us,” Bratkowski said. “We had to look at how the other receivers were being used. Were we putting Laveranues (Coles) and Andre in the best spots? We kept moving them around to play to their strengths. All these evaluations are what we’ll be doing (in the offseason).”

» It sounds like a make-or-cut training camp for wide receiver Jerome Simpson, the 2008 second-round pick who was inactive for all but two games and has just one NFL catch.

“It’s a huge spring for him and a huge training camp for him,” Bratkowski said. “He works extremely hard at it. He spends extra time with coaches. He’s just got to get the consistency level down and he’ll be fine.”

No, the Bengals aren’t looking to drum Palmer out of the corps. If Bratkowski and Palmer would have trouble today scraping together votes if they ran on mayoral ticket in the Queen City, know that the quarterback has a solid mandate at Paul Brown Stadium.

Any rumors about a trade reuniting Palmer with old USC coach Pete Carroll in Seattle can be scotched right now. Palmer is Cincinnati's guy and while Bratkowski knows he didn’t have his typical numbers and quarterbacks coach Ken Zampese says Palmer wasn’t as accurate as he’s been, they both view his adjustment to the new style and new receivers along with his uncanny crunch-time heroics as major reasons for the Bengals winning the AFC North.

“It was a different style of play for him and there were a lot of changes,” Bratkowski said. “There were a lot of new people in place at different spots ... and it was good enough for seven drives in the fourth quarter to tie or go ahead. Plus, it was good enough to win the division. Good enough decision-making not to turn it over in those tight games.”

Zampese realizes how much Palmer missed his two favorite go-to guys, Henry and T.J. Houshmandzadeh, and that the team is “in a transition” trying to find a guy opposite The Ocho.

“He had time on task with those guys,” Zampese said. “They were guys you knew what you were going to get and you knew where to put it. You just had a lot of experience with the two in critical situations. There is a transition to who the next guys are going to be and it didn’t happen how we were hoping it would. We had a lot of time in the spring with (the new receivers) and it didn’t happen all the time like we were hoping it would. Players, coaches, anybody.”

For those fearing that Palmer’s injuries have dented the $130 million pure-passing merchandise, his position coach actually says he’s about as sound as can be.

Zampese says Palmer drove his legs through his passes this season like before he tore up his knee four years ago and he’s pleased that the things Palmer worked on in the spring, crisper footwork on his passing, mobility out of the pocket, and last-minute hurry-up situations, could be seen so readily. Finally, after always seeming to be rehabbing a knee (2006) or an elbow (2008), Palmer was able to get into a rhythm with his mechanics back in April, May and June.

“It’s always been interrupted by an elbow or whatever else it was before that and so we had a chance in the spring time to just start from ground zero again. This is what we’re going to be and this is how we’re going to get there,” Zampese said. There’s rust you knock off and trust that you build all the way back from knee to elbow to whatever else we were dealing with over the years that you have to overcome mentally and get back to that consistent technique regimen. I think we got to that point where we could just hit the same points over an extended period of time.

“He took it another step in the summer. I could tell he had really spent a lot of time getting downhill into the throw and strong off his back leg and using his legs more than just the arm, but using his legs to build a foundation.”

And did Palmer ever move out of the pocket. His scrambles saved the game in Cleveland. He tied it late in regulation with a fourth-down scramble that gave The Ocho a two-yard TD pass, and he got the winning field goal on the last drive in overtime when he scrambled for 15 yards on fourth-and-11.

“You saw it in college,” said Zampese, who thinks Palmer got inspired by less athletic quarterbacks making plays out of the pocket. “He ran all over the place.”

Palmer hit 60.5 percent of his passes this season, his lowest in a year he’s thrown at least 130 passes since the 60.9 of his first year starting in 2004. But Zampese says there are other things at work, such as knowing where his new receivers are going to be. Bratkowski isn’t letting Palmer off the hook. But he’s well aware of the factors.

“As you look at it, I would not say he’s missed a ton of throws where you say, ‘Gee, he could have had that one,’ ” said Bratkowski, who also discussed Palmer's 50-percent passing in the playoff game. “Our receivers were getting bumped around. They had guys draped all over them at times. There was one pass he threw high and one person was out of place that had to jump to go after the ball. It looks like a high ball, but there was another person in that spot that shouldn’t have been there.”

And there are Palmer’s intangibles. Zampese has watched him grow as a locker-room leader and Bratkowski likes the way he got the offense in and out of run plays.

Bratkowski remembers twice Saturday night, one where Palmer sent running back Cedric Benson on his 47-yard touchdown run away from the loaded side and one where he called off a flea-flicker because there was a safety blitz.

“He found checkdowns this year better than he has, too,” Zampese said. “There are some underlying positives that don’t always show up when you watch, but they will serve him well as he becomes an older player and make a difference for us as we go.”

And it looks like where they are going is back to the running game with the offseason emphasis on finding personnel and plays to revive the passing game. Much like Bratkowski did last offseason with the run.

“You just have to be more efficient in the throws,” Bratkowski said. “If you say balanced, you don’t run it as much, then you’re not as good a running team. You can’t say one thing and do another. But what has to come out of it is more efficiency and generate more big plays when we do throw.

“If you sit and tell the players one thing, but your actions don’t jive with what you’re telling them, they go, ‘They say we are, but we’re not.’ ”

The Bengals are, it seems, in it for the long run into 2010 with Palmer leading the pack.

[SeeinRed]

Just got a twitter update from Josh Katzowitz that says Zimmer re-signed with Cincy. Good news for sure.

[CTA513]

from NFL.com blog:


Bengals retain defensive coordinator Zimmer
Posted: January 12th, 2010 | Steve Wyche

Bengals defensive coordinator Mike Zimmer has signed a three-year contract to remain with the team, a source with knowledge of the situation said Tuesday.

Zimmer’s retention – his contract was set to expire – is considered a huge deal for a team that won the AFC North this season, largely on the strength of its defense.

Zimmer, who just completed his second season with Cincinnati, was reported to have been targeted for the defensive coordinator job in Washington under new coach Mike Shanahan. Zimmer also figured to have other suitors based on the job he has done in turning around the Bengals’ defense.

However, Zimmer’s relationship with coach Marvin Lewis, his affinity for several of his players and ownership’s commitment were factors in his decision to stay with the Bengals.


Source: http://blogs.nfl.com/2010/01/12/bengals-retain-defensive-coordinator-zimmer/

[Matt700wlw]

They've kept the right guy....now dump the wrong one.

Good start so far!

[SunDeck]

We do need some offensive help, but I'd like to see some great defensive players drafted somewhat early. Let's take something we were good at, and make it great. Offense should be alot easier to correct.

Is it that hard to teach a running back to catch the ball? Or is Cedric Benson just not a guy who would catch and run anyway? But I agree with you TS, and even though I think the Bengals need some help to give them more throwing options, building a defensive powerhouse can't hurt.

[Oxilon]

We do need some offensive help, but I'd like to see some great defensive players drafted somewhat early. Let's take something we were good at, and make it great. Offense should be alot easier to correct.

Problem with that is the Bengals have $100MM wrapped around Carson Palmer. If they're going to have a great defense (like the Ravens in 2000), you need the majority of your payroll wrapped around it. And you can't have a $100MM QB.

[Sea Ray]

That long article on Bratkowski didn't hit on his biggest issues such as playcalling. Why don't we run the no huddle? Palmer ran it very well 4 yrs ago. Why not now? Why don't we have a bubble screen in our playbook? We can't this offense execute a slant pattern? These are simple things that even rookie QBs can do.

Why did the offense lead the league in penalties?

As for Palmer his biggest problem was not looking off receivers. He locked onto them. He needs to work on that skill for 2010.

I don't think Brat knows the problems with this offense and for that reason is not the guy to turn it around

[HeatherC1212]

I'm SOOOOO glad they kept Zimmer in Cincy! :jump:

Now let's get going on fixing this whole offense problem, LOL :p:

[traderumor]

I'm a little slow on the trigger, came to post the news about Zimm, but see I am way behing, so I'll just say

Woo Hoo! Good news for the Bengals.

[yab1112]

Wasn't expecting this to happen so soon. I figured it would be a long drawn out process that would keep us in suspense. Kudos to Mike Brown for getting it done.

[redsfandan]

Now that we know Zimmer will be back I expect the defense to be even better once they get some guys healthy. Time to concentrate on the offense.

[Reds Fanatic]

That is fantastic news on Zimmer. The defense just keeps improving under Zimmer and next year should be another good year for the defense as some of the injured players come back.

[Redsfaithful]

Mike Brown really hasn't been as horrible as usual in the past 12 months, apart from the Andre Smith negotiations, and it's hard to tell who's really at fault with that sort of thing. Maybe we are entering an age where the Bengals will really just be a normal football team? I probably shouldn't be optimistic here, but the quickness of the Zimmer thing really surprised me.

[Sea Ray]

Mike Brown really hasn't been as horrible as usual in the past 12 months, apart from the Andre Smith negotiations, and it's hard to tell who's really at fault with that sort of thing. Maybe we are entering an age where the Bengals will really just be a normal football team? I probably shouldn't be optimistic here, but the quickness of the Zimmer thing really surprised me.

I hear what you're saying but I won't be impressed that things have changed unless he addresses the Offensive coach issues. If he brings back Bratkowski and WR coach Sheppard then it shows that he still doesn't demand excellence from his coaches and that'll lead to more mediocrity.

[TeamSelig]

Problem with that is the Bengals have $100MM wrapped around Carson Palmer. If they're going to have a great defense (like the Ravens in 2000), you need the majority of your payroll wrapped around it. And you can't have a $100MM QB.

Might be true. But I think if we target the right guys in the draft, we can stockpile good defensive talent for fairly cheap. I think we are a few good players from being pretty elite defensively.

It really depends on our younger players improving next season, which I think they will do. I think our offense can improve drastically just by signing a few stop gap players

[WVRed]

WOO HOO! :beerme::beerme::beerme:

[Kingspoint]

Hallelujah!

[Redsfaithful]

I don't like Bratkowski either particularly, but given enough talent he can make an offense work, he's shown that in the past. I'd give someone else another chance if it were my team obviously, but the Bengals can win with him as coordinator.

I really think the Bengals just need a shutdown offensive line again that works in both the passing and running game. Palmer doesn't seem to trust his line at all, and the pocket collapses pretty frequently, I think that would solve a lot of issues. And it goes without saying they need another decent receiver or two.

[redsfandan]

Might be true. But I think if we target the right guys in the draft, we can stockpile good defensive talent for fairly cheap. I think we are a few good players from being pretty elite defensively.

It really depends on our younger players improving next season, which I think they will do. I think our offense can improve drastically just by signing a few stop gap players
I'd love to hear you explain your reasons. To me, that's kinda like wishing the Reds would add a defensive specialist.

[Tony Cloninger]

I think Brown signed almost everyone BUT Zimmer last year to 2 year contracts. Why? Again......things like too much loyalty.

Yet they are still letting Zampese go interview in Chicago for the OC job...even if he is under contract.

[Hoosier Red]

I think Brown signed almost everyone BUT Zimmer last year to 2 year contracts. Why? Again......things like too much loyalty.

Yet they are still letting Zampese go interview in Chicago for the OC job...even if he is under contract.

If you don't allow Zampese to interview for a clear promotion you'll have a ton of trouble attracting quality coaches in the future.

[Caveat Emperor]

I'd say it's an even-money shot that Zimmer doesn't end up head coach of this team before his 3-year deal is up.

[TeamSelig]

I'd love to hear you explain your reasons. To me, that's kinda like wishing the Reds would add a defensive specialist.

Explain which part of my post? You are saying we need to address all needs of the team? I just mean in the 2nd round, there is a great WR and a great DB available, nab the DB instead... even though we need a WR, adding another good DB would give our secondary some depth and more talent.

[redsfandan]

Explain how your priority seems to be defense, the "Offense should be alot easier to correct", and that "our offense can improve drastically just by signing a few stop gap players". I just don't get that. The offense needs help. NOT the defense.

[camisadelgolf]

Mike Brown really hasn't been as horrible as usual in the past 12 months . . .
If he learned from his past mistakes, he should be the best GM in football.

[TeamSelig]

Replace Coles with a different vet receiver who can actually catch a ball consistently, and our offense is 2x better already.

Our running game is very good. We have a QB.... who USED to be pretty dominate (what happened!?) Hopefully he bounces back. I think you have to count on that. We have an elite receiver. We just need another solid receiver and a TE who can catch a ball. There is a chance that we have these needs on the team already.

What I mean is I'd rather have Average offense + Great Defense instead of Good offense + Good defense.

Maybe I just think the offense is easier to correct than you do. A new OC would instantly improve our offense IMO.

[Newport Red]

That long article on Bratkowski didn't hit on his biggest issues such as playcalling. Why don't we run the no huddle? Palmer ran it very well 4 yrs ago. Why not now? Why don't we have a bubble screen in our playbook? We can't this offense execute a slant pattern? These are simple things that even rookie QBs can do.

Why did the offense lead the league in penalties?

As for Palmer his biggest problem was not looking off receivers. He locked onto them. He needs to work on that skill for 2010.

I don't think Brat knows the problems with this offense and for that reason is not the guy to turn it around

All that and he still manged to outscore the opposition ten times this year.
Bratkowski/Organization knew exactly the problems with the offense. That's why they ran the ball.

[Caveat Emperor]

Our running game is very good. We have a QB.... who USED to be pretty dominate (what happened!?) Hopefully he bounces back. I think you have to count on that. We have an elite receiver. We just need another solid receiver and a TE who can catch a ball. There is a chance that we have these needs on the team already.

The running game is good because their offensive line is made up of a lot of very good run blockers. Pass blocking? Not so much...

[Sea Ray]

All that and he still manged to outscore the opposition ten times this year.
Bratkowski/Organization knew exactly the problems with the offense. That's why they ran the ball.

You and Mike Brown would get along real well. I get the impression he feels exactly the same way

[traderumor]

You and Mike Brown would get along real well. I get the impression he feels exactly the same wayAll triteness aside, the Head Coach and Offensive Coordinator should get credit for getting the most out of what they did have. They recognized the talents of the players they had at their disposal and played to the strength of the team. That netted a playoff spot. For that they should get credit instead of lambasting the OC as incompetent.

Up for debate is where they should go from here. Yes, they need to get better at the passing game, I would agree, either through the draft or free agency, but to simply look at points and close games and conclude the offense was ineffective, and then proceed to lay that at the feet of the OC, is a very narrow opinion. I think a good manager is one who is able to be successful with the resources he is given. I think that the offense did that. They simply did not have enough talent in the receiver corps this year to be a Super Bowl contender.

[Newport Red]

You and Mike Brown would get along real well. I get the impression he feels exactly the same way

If Mikey likes double digit wins as much as I do, yes we would.

He went into this season with a line so bad they had to use the sixth pick in the draft to upgrade it. And Smith made no significant impact this year.

His best receiver the past two years was playing in Seattle.

If your observation that Palmer locks onto one receiver is correct, he went into every game this year with arguably the second best quarterback on the field.

His tight ends were on IR before the regular season.


The only positives I see coming into the season were there was no black hole at center and he had Cedric for the full year.

He gave it to his best player, Cedric, often and kept Carson healthy.

Name any player other than Cedric who could sniff the Pro Bowl.

Name any player other than Cedric and Chad who could upgrade a good NFL offense.

The guy overachieved with the talent he was given.

Replace him if you want but he is hardly the problem.

[macro]

All that and he still manged to outscore the opposition ten times this year.


In fairness, that's only because the defense gave up only 18.2 ppg.

Had the defense allowed 24 points in every game (12 teams allowed 23.4 ppg or more), the team would have finished 3-13. The offense topped 23 points only three times this season.

[Sea Ray]

The analogy with Mike Brown goes to the question of "can we do better"?

I think we can. I don't think he utilized Carson Palmer's skills. For instance, why couldn't he use the no huddle?

This offense showed a huge lack of discipline by jumping off sides and receivers and QB not in synch. This is the fault of the offensive coordinator in not preparing them properly. He should have ridden them hard in practice like a drill sargeant until they could do it in their sleep. Lack of preparation I blame on the coach.

Why couldn't the offense execute a screen pass to a back like Scott every now and then? Peyton Manning always has dumpoff options and he uses them a lot. Ditto for Tom Brady.

How 'bout a slant pass? I haven't seen a decent slant executed by this team since the one that broke Slim's arm.

These are simple things that are not too much to ask of NFL offenses and but Brat can't seem to do it with this group.

[traderumor]

The analogy with Mike Brown goes to the question of "can we do better"?

I think we can. I don't think he utilized Carson Palmer's skills. For instance, why couldn't he use the no huddle?

This offense showed a huge lack of discipline by jumping off sides and receivers and QB not in synch. This is the fault of the offensive coordinator in not preparing them properly. He should have ridden them hard in practice like a drill sargeant until they could do it in their sleep. Lack of preparation I blame on the coach.

Why couldn't the offense execute a screen pass to a back like Scott every now and then? Peyton Manning always has dumpoff options and he uses them a lot. Ditto for Tom Brady.

How 'bout a slant pass? I haven't seen a decent slant executed by this team since the one that broke Slim's arm.

These are simple things that are not too much to ask of NFL offenses and but Brat can't seem to do it with this group.

No huddle--you surely aren't going no huddle when you are playing field position, ball control, grind it out football.

False starts--I blame the frequency of these on CP line of scrimmage shenanigans. Snap the ball already. I don't think every play requires a check off or hard count, and the hard count is just as likely to make your own guy flinch as it is to draw the D offsides.

Screens and dumps--I'm in agreement

Slants--the Bengals finally broke these out against the Chiefs, threw a few to Chad, including the game winner. They underutilized these as well and would have gone nicely with the ball control style of offense. I agree there.

[Sea Ray]

No huddle--you surely aren't going no huddle when you are playing field position, ball control, grind it out football.

False starts--I blame the frequency of these on CP line of scrimmage shenanigans. Snap the ball already. I don't think every play requires a check off or hard count, and the hard count is just as likely to make your own guy flinch as it is to draw the D offsides.



The no huddle would be a nice thing to not run exclusively but pull out of the bag once a game or so. It should have been in their arsenal given the fact they had a veteran QB.

You're the first one I've heard that blames the false starts on Carson. I disagree. That's discipline and falls on the O coordinator

[traderumor]

The no huddle would be a nice thing to not run exclusively but pull out of the bag once a game or so. It should have been in their arsenal given the fact they had a veteran QB.

You're the first one I've heard that blames the false starts on Carson. I disagree. That's discipline and falls on the O coordinatorWhether its discipline or not, the more cycles they run through just to get the freaking ball snapped is going to cause false starts. Seriously, you don't think a hard count, when your sitting there on your haunches, isn't going to make you twitch, which is all it takes for a false start? I think it is very plausible. Discipline, yes. Could CP's hard counts and check offs, etc. be exacerbating the problem? I think it is very possible.

I would say that the number of offsides on hard counts vs. the number of false starts from going through long counts is not a win, but a net loss. Rarely does the hard count draw the D offsides, but the long counts make it harder and harder for an offensive lineman not to flinch, esp. when he is trying to get off the ball first.

That I'm the first one that you've heard suggest it is not an argument. I actually think it is just as silly to not consider the QB's role in false starts.

[Sea Ray]

Whether its discipline or not, the more cycles they run through just to get the freaking ball snapped is going to cause false starts. Seriously, you don't think a hard count, when your sitting there on your haunches, isn't going to make you twitch, which is all it takes for a false start? I think it is very plausible. Discipline, yes. Could CP's hard counts and check offs, etc. be exacerbating the problem? I think it is very possible.

I would say that the number of offsides on hard counts vs. the number of false starts from going through long counts is not a win, but a net loss. Rarely does the hard count draw the D offsides, but the long counts make it harder and harder for an offensive lineman not to flinch, esp. when he is trying to get off the ball first.

That I'm the first one that you've heard suggest it is not an argument. I actually think it is just as silly to not consider the QB's role in false starts.

It all comes back to the offensive coordinator. If Carson's hard counts aren't being executed properly then it's up to the OC to coach him up and get it fixed.

Your example doesn't reflect well on the OC

[Newport Red]

It all comes back to the offensive coordinator. If Carson's hard counts aren't being executed properly then it's up to the OC to coach him up and get it fixed.

Your example doesn't reflect well on the OC

What do position coaches get paid to do?

[Sea Ray]

What do position coaches get paid to do?

Do I have to spell it out for you? TE coach coaches the TEs. WR coaches the WRs...

The Bears seem pretty impressed with the QB coach. They're interviewing him to be their OC.

Do the position coaches share in the blame? Sure, but that doesn't absolve the OC who shoulders the ultimate responsibility to get it done right.

[traderumor]

It all comes back to the offensive coordinator. If Carson's hard counts aren't being executed properly then it's up to the OC to coach him up and get it fixed.

Your example doesn't reflect well on the OCI'd say its a choice that an OC has made and lives with. But, I think you are greatly overstating the impact of this attribute on the overall job that an OC is being paid to do. Sure, his higher responsibility makes him technically accountable for such things, but I'd have a hard time sitting in a job evaluation with Brat and saying, "well, Bob, we're going to go another direction. Too many false starts in your regime."

In other words, that should be a very small part of an org's concern with an offensive coordinator. So much majoring in minors.

[sonny]

Lewis has been named AP Coach of the Year. I predict an extension.

[Kingspoint]

Lewis has been named AP Coach of the Year. I predict an extension.

Congratulations to the team for being the "story-of-the-year". Someone's name had to be attached to the story and they don't have a "Defensive Coordinator of the Year" Award.

Norv Turner was the "real" Coach of the Year if you want to look at a Coach's performance.

The Joke is on the Bengals' fans. As you say, here comes the 5-year extension. Funny though, how there's never any knocks on Marvin's door when it comes to interest in obtaining his services. Never a rumor. Never a wane of interest by any other teams. Yeah, he's really a good coach.

[traderumor]

Congratulations to the team for being the "story-of-the-year". Someone's name had to be attached to the story and they don't have a "Defensive Coordinator of the Year" Award.

Norv Turner was the "real" Coach of the Year if you want to look at a Coach's performance.

The Joke is on the Bengals' fans. As you say, here comes the 5-year extension. Funny though, how there's never any knocks on Marvin's door when it comes to interest in obtaining his services. Never a rumor. Never a wane of interest by any other teams. Yeah, he's really a good coach.This isn't college football. Coaches don't jump from team to team or entertain other offers while they are still under contract with another team. So, your jab is unfounded.

[cincrazy]

Congratulations to the team for being the "story-of-the-year". Someone's name had to be attached to the story and they don't have a "Defensive Coordinator of the Year" Award.

Norv Turner was the "real" Coach of the Year if you want to look at a Coach's performance.

The Joke is on the Bengals' fans. As you say, here comes the 5-year extension. Funny though, how there's never any knocks on Marvin's door when it comes to interest in obtaining his services. Never a rumor. Never a wane of interest by any other teams. Yeah, he's really a good coach.

Other than containing the potential of stirring up a whole bunch of trouble, I'm not sure what this post accomplishes.

Disagreeing with the award is fine. But failing to recognize what Lewis has done in turning this franchise around is foolish.

[traderumor]

Other than containing the potential of stirring up a whole bunch of trouble, I'm not sure what this post accomplishes.

Disagreeing with the award is fine. But failing to recognize what Lewis has done in turning this franchise around is foolish.Well said. :beerme:

[Playadlc]

Found this on a Bengals board...

1996-2002 --- [i.e. Pre-Marvin]
8-8
7-9
3-13
4-12
4-12
4-12
2-14

TOTAL WINS = 32
Playoff appearances = 0
Division titles = 0



2003-2009 --- [i.e. Post-Marvin]
8-8
8-8
11-5
8-8
7-9
4-11-1
10-6

TOTAL WINS = 56
Playoff Appearances = 2
Division titles = 2

[Redsfaithful]

Marvin Lewis is a great coach, I just don't understand how anyone can think otherwise. Even some of the stuff people use against him is unfounded (like challenges, you go back and look and percentage wise he's successful a lot when it comes to those). His time management could use some work, that's really about the only thing I can think to criticize.

Glad to see him win the AP award and I hope he coaches in Cincinnati as long as he wants.

[cincrazy]

Marvin Lewis is a great coach, I just don't understand how anyone can think otherwise. Even some of the stuff people use against him is unfounded (like challenges, you go back and look and percentage wise he's successful a lot when it comes to those). His time management could use some work, that's really about the only thing I can think to criticize.

Glad to see him win the AP award and I hope he coaches in Cincinnati as long as he wants.

Agreed.

The people that bash Marvin don't pay attention. How many coaches could succeed in this organization? No GM, a painful lack of scouts, Mike Brown wanting to pretend he's his father.

Marvin Lewis should be immediately inducted into the Hall of Fame for even managing two postseason appearances under Brown.

Before Marvin's first year, Tony Kornheiser said that if Marvin won six games, he should automatically win coach of the year honors. Which shows you how far this franchise has come under Lewis.

By the way, they won eight games that first year. A season after winning only two.

[Oxilon]

Found this on a Bengals board...

1996-2002 --- [i.e. Pre-Marvin]
8-8
7-9
3-13
4-12
4-12
4-12
2-14

TOTAL WINS = 32
Playoff appearances = 0
Division titles = 0



2003-2009 --- [i.e. Post-Marvin]
8-8
8-8
11-5
8-8
7-9
4-11-1
10-6

TOTAL WINS = 56
Playoff Appearances = 2
Division titles = 2

So the Bengals went from horrendous to mediocre with Marvin Lewis it seems. I still don't want an extension to Marvin until he can actually win a playoff game. 7 seasons with the Bengals and ZERO playoff wins kind of speaks for itself.

[camisadelgolf]

So the Bengals went from horrendous to mediocre with Marvin Lewis it seems. I still don't want an extension to Marvin until he can actually win a playoff game. 7 seasons with the Bengals and ZERO playoff wins kind of speaks for itself.
They went from horrendous to somewhat respectable. To count those first couple seasons against him is unfair when you consider how much making up he had to do for the previous regimes. You have to crawl before you run, but at least the Bengals are finally jogging. What Marvin has done for the organization has been incredible. Granted, he has input for the roster, but everything is ultimately Mike Brown's decision. When the Bengals lose, it is rarely, if ever, a result of bad coaching. The problem has been a lack of talent.

[Oxilon]

They went from horrendous to somewhat respectable. To count those first couple seasons against him is unfair when you consider how much making up he had to do for the previous regimes. You have to crawl before you run, but at least the Bengals are finally jogging. What Marvin has done for the organization has been incredible. Granted, he has input for the roster, but everything is ultimately Mike Brown's decision. When the Bengals lose, it is rarely, if ever, a result of bad coaching. The problem has been a lack of talent.

No offense, but I hate this excuse. The Bengals can't change the status quo of mediocrity because they'll more than likely revert back to the 90's Bengals if they replace Marvin. Honestly, .500 records or 4-12 seasons, either way, you're not going to win the Superbowl, and that's all I care about.

And if Billy Bidwell can hire a coach and get his team to the Superbowl, than surely even Mike Brown could do the same. Marvin Lewis has been with the Bengals 7 years; the talent that's here is on him now.

[Redhook]

This Marvin thing is a touchy subject. First, I'll never forget how he took this franchise from the depths of hell to the playoffs. He did a great job his first 3 years.

After '05 I would grade him at a C-. Some good years, some bad. Since '05, I believe his negatives have slightly outweighed his positives. I thought he failed with the Chad situation, his clock management blows, not challenging Brat in his play-calling, failing to adjust quickly enough during games, etc. I believe those are big issues and could've all been improved upon.

At this point in time the question is this, "Is Marvin the guy that can get the Bengals to the next level, i.e. Super Bowl Champs?" IMO, I don't think he is. I'm not saying I want him fired right now or that he's a bad coach, I just think he lacks something to get this team to the elite level. Obviously, having to deal with Mike Brown's shenanigans certainly doesn't help his cause, but I put some of the blame on Marvin.

[macro]

The sad thing is that this:



2003-2009 --- [i.e. Post-Marvin]
8-8
8-8
11-5
8-8
7-9
4-11-1
10-6

TOTAL WINS = 56
Playoff Appearances = 2
Division titles = 2

would have fan in an uproar and the coach fired in many (most?) NFL cities, while in Cincinnati it's considered a bright, new day.

[WMR]

This Marvin thing is a touchy subject. First, I'll never forget how he took this franchise from the depths of hell to the playoffs. He did a great job his first 3 years.

After '05 I would grade him at a C-. Some good years, some bad. Since '05, I believe his negatives have slightly outweighed his positives. I thought he failed with the Chad situation, his clock management blows, not challenging Brat in his play-calling, failing to adjust quickly enough during games, etc. I believe those are big issues and could've all been improved upon.

At this point in time the question is this, "Is Marvin the guy that can get the Bengals to the next level, i.e. Super Bowl Champs?" IMO, I don't think he is. I'm not saying I want him fired right now or that he's a bad coach, I just think he lacks something to get this team to the elite level. Obviously, having to deal with Mike Brown's shenanigans certainly doesn't help his cause, but I put some of the blame on Marvin.


The sad thing is that this:



would have fan in an uproar and the coach fired in many (most?) NFL cities, while in Cincinnati it's considered a bright, new day.

Agreed.

[Newport Red]

The sad thing is that this:



would have fan in an uproar and the coach fired in many (most?) NFL cities, while in Cincinnati it's considered a bright, new day.

He's one of the few coaches who got to rebuild a team twice. A rarity in the NFL.

[joshnky]

After '05 I would grade him at a C-. Some good years, some bad. Since '05, I believe his negatives have slightly outweighed his positives. I thought he failed with the Chad situation, his clock management blows, not challenging Brat in his play-calling, failing to adjust quickly enough during games, etc. I believe those are big issues and could've all been improved upon.

I agree on the Chad issue; however, I believe the health of Palmer has played a major factor in his post 2005 resume. Look at Brady and the Patriots for a similar comparison. While they haven't fallen as far, they've fallen back to the pack and many are suggesting the ending of an era. Unfortunately, Palmer's relative health and ability to avoid injury is a situation that is still in limbo and may end up being the death of Lewis' tenure and result in missing the opportunity that the defense and running game is providing.

[traderumor]

The sad thing is that this:



would have fan in an uproar and the coach fired in many (most?) NFL cities, while in Cincinnati it's considered a bright, new day.Hyperbole, plain and simple. More like there are a few NFL cities that might not be up to snuff, but many or most? A great exagerration.

[Tony Cloninger]

Tolerating mediocre HC goes back to Sam Wyche. Wyche had the most talent of all the coaches since 1980...and while that SB year of 1988 was great....He was also terrible at In game adjustments.....He would out cute himself and basically had no excuse for only having 2 playoff appearances with that great talent.

So I can tolerate Marvin beacuse I think he wins in spite of the Brown family and it's great in breed FO and scouting staff.

How may coaches will or would come here of any substance to begin with...if he were fired?

[macro]

Hyperbole, plain and simple. More like there are a few NFL cities that might not be up to snuff, but many or most? A great exagerration.

I don't understand your reply, tr. I didn't say that many or most NFL cities are not up to snuff, whatever that means. I said that many (or most?) NFL cities would not be celebrating a record such as Marvin's, but rather would be frustrated at the lack of success and calling for his firing. Is that the point you're disputing? If so, I'm puzzled as to why you would attempt to. Coaches with far better records and lists of accomplishments have been run out (or nudged out) of NFL cities many times. Heck, a story came out just this week that hinted that the Steelers' three-game, season ending winning streak may have saved Mike Tomlin's job, and this less than twelve months after he won the Super Bowl.

[traderumor]

I don't understand your reply, tr. I didn't say that many or most NFL cities are not up to snuff, whatever that means. I said that many (or most?) NFL cities would not be celebrating a record such as Marvin's, but rather would be frustrated at the lack of success and calling for his firing. Is that the point you're disputing? If so, I'm puzzled as to why you would attempt to. Coaches with far better records and lists of accomplishments have been run out (or nudged out) of NFL cities many times. Heck, a story came out just this week that hinted that the Steelers' three-game, season ending winning streak may have saved Mike Tomlin's job, and this less than twelve months after he won the Super Bowl.You understood it. Pittsburgh was one exception I was thinking about, but to say that his record to date, all things considered, would result in a firing in most NFL cities is an exaggeration. Whether you like it or not, the Bengals situation is what it is, and he has been successful. To say that is a reflection of low standards really isn't fair. If the Bengals fired him by the standard of these unnamed NFL cities, they would be wrong for doing so. Your assumption is that the other NFL cities you are alluding to would be justified in doing so, which begs the question.

[WVRed]

This Marvin thing is a touchy subject. First, I'll never forget how he took this franchise from the depths of hell to the playoffs. He did a great job his first 3 years.

After '05 I would grade him at a C-. Some good years, some bad. Since '05, I believe his negatives have slightly outweighed his positives. I thought he failed with the Chad situation, his clock management blows, not challenging Brat in his play-calling, failing to adjust quickly enough during games, etc. I believe those are big issues and could've all been improved upon.

At this point in time the question is this, "Is Marvin the guy that can get the Bengals to the next level, i.e. Super Bowl Champs?" IMO, I don't think he is. I'm not saying I want him fired right now or that he's a bad coach, I just think he lacks something to get this team to the elite level. Obviously, having to deal with Mike Brown's shenanigans certainly doesn't help his cause, but I put some of the blame on Marvin.

I think a good comparison would be Tony Dungy in Tampa Bay. Good coach who laid the groundwork for a pretty impressive team, but just didnt have what it took to win the big game.

[Newport Red]

I don't understand your reply, tr. I didn't say that many or most NFL cities are not up to snuff, whatever that means. I said that many (or most?) NFL cities would not be celebrating a record such as Marvin's, but rather would be frustrated at the lack of success and calling for his firing. Is that the point you're disputing? If so, I'm puzzled as to why you would attempt to. Coaches with far better records and lists of accomplishments have been run out (or nudged out) of NFL cities many times. Heck, a story came out just this week that hinted that the Steelers' three-game, season ending winning streak may have saved Mike Tomlin's job, and this less than twelve months after he won the Super Bowl.

I'd be shocked if the Rooney's fired Tomlin. Cowher was only 8-8 the year after his Super Bowl win.

Lewis hasn't been fired because Mike isn't going to pay him to not work. If there was a time to fire Lewis, it was last year, and Mike isn't paying 2 years for nothing. This season has made it mostly a mute point.

I'm sure Mike will offer Lewis an extension. Let's see how long it is and if Marvin accepts.

[Newport Red]

I think a good comparison would be Tony Dungy in Tampa Bay. Good coach who laid the groundwork for a pretty impressive team, but just didnt have what it took to win the big game.


I don't think the Bengals as a football organization has what it takes to even get to the Super Bowl. The Steelers, Patriots, Chargers and Colts are just better organization top to bottom. Pittsburgh can fade this year and New England did last year. I just don't see the Bengals ever being better than all the top tier teams in a season.

[camisadelgolf]

Marvin Lewis isn't the problem. Mike Brown is.

[Redsfaithful]

Honestly, .500 records or 4-12 seasons, either way, you're not going to win the Superbowl, and that's all I care about.

I love football way too much, and I love the Bengals too much which means I have watched the Bengals win or lose week in and week out since I was 7 years old.

Saying that, I'll tell you right now, I'll take .500 and in the conversation most of the year over 3-13 or 4-12 every single time.

There are 32 NFL teams, if you're only watching the Bengals (or whatever team really) to see them win a Super Bowl, then good luck with that. I definitely hope to see the Bengals win one in my life time, but that doesn't mean I'm not going to enjoy the heck out of years like 2005 and 2009, or even the occasional 8-8 season.

But I'm a die hard, no matter how much I sometimes wish otherwise, your mileage may vary.

[Mario-Rijo]

Marvin Lewis is a great coach, I just don't understand how anyone can think otherwise. Even some of the stuff people use against him is unfounded (like challenges, you go back and look and percentage wise he's successful a lot when it comes to those). His time management could use some work, that's really about the only thing I can think to criticize.

Glad to see him win the AP award and I hope he coaches in Cincinnati as long as he wants.

I don't hate on Marvin myself I think he's done a really exceptional job as the Bengals Head Coach. But he does aggravate me with his challenges, whoever is relaying the information to him isn't doing a real good job IMO. I'd like to see those percentages so if you have a link I'd appreciate it.

[Mario-Rijo]

On the subject of 2010 I'd agree with most of what's already been said. I think on defense safety is the biggest area of need although I never mind a little tweaking/upgrading in any spot. Depth at corner and at DT/DE could use some upgrading. LB is pretty solid all the way thru 5-6 guys deep who I think can start. I think the offense is pretty well stocked as well with exception to TE and improving depth all over. WR is an iffy spot for me to figure I think something needs done there but I think the Bengals will view that differently as well as Safety, I bet neither of those positions are a major priority as far as starters/high picks are concerned, but the Bengals really do tend to go best player available. That said I think Mays/Gresham are likely potential targets where we select. I really wish we could finally trade up and fill the spot next to Crocker with Eric Berry. Short of that I'll be angling for Gresham in the early going.

Also I'd find a replacement for Bratkowski and it stems from his pass happy ways. Here he is in a game in the playoffs where we must run the ball and should run the ball philosophically speaking based on the defense we faced and we decide to come out throwing the ball and never really feeding Cedric who had only 21 carries but was tearing it up on the ground. Now if there was an injury or something nagging we don't know about with Cedric I could forgive him for his approach afterall Cedric was the one guy who didn't go the previous week and I'm not sure why, he wasn't injured that I was aware of. Short of that we should have run, run, run at least at a 60/40 split. He goes out there passing the daggone thing and of course it didn't produce much against the #1 passing defense.

[Redhook]

How about Gresham in Rd. 1 and Gilyard in Rd. 2? From what I'm reading on Mock Drafts and Player Rankings, there is a possibility Gilyard will be around in Rd. 2. It'll be close. IMO, he'd be a great fit here. He's a great returner, very good receiver, great kid, college hero here, and he's a winner. He'd quickly become a fan favorite.

[camisadelgolf]

As far as the clock management and play challenges go, I don't think there's a single coach in the NFL who doesn't annoy his fans with that stuff multiple times throughout the year. In the grand scheme of things, they're fairly minor imo.

[WVRed]

How about Gresham in Rd. 1 and Gilyard in Rd. 2? From what I'm reading on Mock Drafts and Player Rankings, there is a possibility Gilyard will be around in Rd. 2. It'll be close. IMO, he'd be a great fit here. He's a great returner, very good receiver, great kid, college hero here, and he's a winner. He'd quickly become a fan favorite.

I would love that draft. I typically never drink the UC-OSU kool-aid when it comes to the Bengals but Gilyard is somebody that I want them to take. Not only do I think he would be the replacement for Ochocinco in a couple of years, but he understands what it means to Cincinnati and with the way he handled himself and the team when BK left, would really show leadership.

[Hoosier Red]

At this point in time the question is this, "Is Marvin the guy that can get the Bengals to the next level, i.e. Super Bowl Champs?" IMO, I don't think he is. I'm not saying I want him fired right now or that he's a bad coach, I just think he lacks something to get this team to the elite level. Obviously, having to deal with Mike Brown's shenanigans certainly doesn't help his cause, but I put some of the blame on Marvin.

I think the Reds are an instructive case in the failings of the "next level" mindset.
After 2000, many said Jack McKeon had done a good job getting the Reds back to winning ways, but believed he couldn't take them to the next level.
Since McKeon's been gone, the next level has been down. Then down some more.

Meanwhile he won a world championship, how's that for next level.

I think Marvin has done an above average job and while I believe there are coaches who could do a better job there are a great number of people who could do worse. Much worse.

[bucksfan2]

How about Gresham in Rd. 1 and Gilyard in Rd. 2? From what I'm reading on Mock Drafts and Player Rankings, there is a possibility Gilyard will be around in Rd. 2. It'll be close. IMO, he'd be a great fit here. He's a great returner, very good receiver, great kid, college hero here, and he's a winner. He'd quickly become a fan favorite.

No thanks on Gresham. More of a pass catching TE and not a blocking TE. The Bengals traditionally have wanted a TE who could block and catch. IMO they have a Gresham on their roster in Coffman.

I would love Gilyard in the 2nd. Even if it takes him a while to develop NFL WR skills he could pay divideds in the return game.

[macro]

I'd be shocked if the Rooney's fired Tomlin. Cowher was only 8-8 the year after his Super Bowl win.


FWIW, Mike Florio implied that it was not as impossible as some may have thought...

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/01/15/rooney-says-three-game-winning-streak-was-important-for-tomlin/

...and this guy seems to agree...

http://www.tribune-democrat.com/sports/local_story_016233400.html

[Tony Cloninger]

The Steelers expect to make the playoffs every year or win the SB or come close to it.....No matter how unreasonable that can be at times...since they are THE STEELERS....they are expected to do that just beacuse they are THE STEELERS.

While the bengals are always supposed to lose and IF they do win....it's luck and everyone else sucks and they are never really for real.

You literally have to do what the Patriots did and not only win once...YOU have to do it again beacuse the first time might be a fluke. The Patriots history besides 1976-1980...1984-1986....and the middle 90's with Parcells....was just as bad as the Bengals. In fact those 1976-1980 teams were considered some of the biggest underachieving teams ever.

[macro]

You understood it. Pittsburgh was one exception I was thinking about, but to say that his record to date, all things considered, would result in a firing in most NFL cities is an exaggeration. Whether you like it or not, the Bengals situation is what it is, and he has been successful. To say that is a reflection of low standards really isn't fair. If the Bengals fired him by the standard of these unnamed NFL cities, they would be wrong for doing so. Your assumption is that the other NFL cities you are alluding to would be justified in doing so, which begs the question.

I didn't say it would be justified, I just meant it was reality.


Whether you like it or not, the Bengals situation is what it is, and he has been successful. To say that is a reflection of low standards really isn't fair.Then what exactly is it a reflection of, then?

He is only "successful" when judged by the performance of his predecessors. When judged by the rest of the league, his record is average or below, and there are MANY franchises in the league that simply won't tolerate "average". He's been here seven years and has won what, exactly?

Can you name a comparable example of an NFL head coach that coached seven years with the same team, had two winning seasons out of those seven, won no playoff games, and kept his job long-term? I could start giving examples of coaches with similar or even better records who were let go or resigned, but it would be a long list.

Here are a few, so at least all of them won't remain "unnamed":

Shanahan - Denver
Sherman - Green Bay
Fassel - NY Giants
Schottenheimer - San Diego and Kansas City
Dungy - Tampa Bay (who was mentioned already)
Mariuchi - San Francisco
Gruden - Oakland
Billick - Baltimore
Mora - Indianapolis
Wannsdedt - Miami

And that's just the ones that come easy. Every one of those coaches had more success with those teams than Lewis. And there were even rumors heading into this offseason that Andy Reid could be in trouble in Philadelphia. If we were to dig down to the coaches with just similar records, it would take more time than I have, but it would provide evidence for my assertion of "many".

If we're going to define success as "improvement", "better morale", "not as bad as they used to be", etc., then I'm on board. The team is certainly not the laughingstock that it used to be. But the reality is that the standards are higher with MANY OR MOST NFL franchises.

[Tony Cloninger]

Maybe in some twisted and sick way.....Brown knows that a coach has one hand tied behind his back here and IF he can find someone to tolerate him and the way things work....he is not going to let him just go?

I always thought that is why he put up with Shula and then later Coslet for as long as he did. He knew they would put up with him more than some other coach.

[macro]

Let me follow up my previous comments by saying that I'm not in favor of firing Marvin Lewis right now. I do agree that he has turned the franchise around in many ways, and the foundation is laid for success, hopefully as early as next year.

My point was just that we as Bengals fans are probably much easier to impress because of the misery we experienced 1991 - 2002. It's all relative, and many other franchises are far less patient. And while we're being patient, let's not forget that Dick Vermeil took the Rams from decade-long laughingstock to Super Bowl Champions in his third season. Whisenhunt took the Cardinals from multiple-decades-long laughingstocks to within a heartbeat of being Super Bowl Champions in his second season. So say what you will about the state of the franchise when Lewis got here, turnarounds have occurred in other places much sooner.

I do think that I'd give Marvin 2-3 more years to either 1) win at least 12 games in a season, 2) get the team to at least the AFC Championship game, and/or 3) get the team to a #2 seed in the playoffs. Granted, those goals are somewhat arbitrary, but those are my benchmarks for success. If at least one of those three things isn't achieved in the next 2-3 years, I don't know how anyone could argue that Lewis is the man to take them to the next level. Ten years should be enough time.

[Reds4Life]

It's hard to give Marvin a fair evaluation because of Brown's involvement. A perfect example is the staff, Brown makes those decisions, not Marvin. I think if he could have, he probably would have fired Brat several years ago.

I am honestly suprised that he puts up with all the meddling from Brown and doesn't just go somewhere else, where he'd have full control over those things, like most NFL coaches.

Since Mikey boy is all about profit, you'd think he'd want to hire a GM, let Marvin do the job you pay him for, and just sit back and watch the piles of cash come rolling in. I think part of it is Mikeys quest to try and live up to his daddys standard, and it ain't going to happen.

[macro]

I mentioned the quick turnarounds in Arizona and St. Louis earlier, and I know those franchises had been plagued by poor ownership, as well. But my question is, were those situations similar to the Bengals as far as the owner not hiring a GM and meddling in the operation of the team? In other words, is this situation a fair comparison to those?

[joshnky]

I mentioned the quick turnarounds in Arizona and St. Louis earlier, and I know those franchises had been plagued by poor ownership, as well. But my question is, were those situations similar to the Bengals as far as the owner not hiring a GM and meddling in the operation of the team? In other words, is this situation a fair comparison to those?

I don't think it is a fair comparison because of the relative competition those teams faced. The NFC West is an awful division and when you couple that with the fact that the NFC has been relatively down compared to the AFC over the past decade it is much easier to perform the worst to first routine. The AFC North has arguably been the strongest division in football over the past decade and with the Colts, Steelers, and Patriots consistently better than their NFC counterparts it makes it that much more difficult to get over the hump.

[Kingspoint]

This isn't college football. Coaches don't jump from team to team or entertain other offers while they are still under contract with another team. So, your jab is unfounded.

You didn't read the post. I was extremely clear. There has never been any "interest" for the worst Head Coach in the NFL. "Interest" is brandied about all the time while Head Coaches are still under contract. My jab is fact.

[Kingspoint]

Other than containing the potential of stirring up a whole bunch of trouble, I'm not sure what this post accomplishes.

Disagreeing with the award is fine. But failing to recognize what Lewis has done in turning this franchise around is foolish.

Believing Marvin Lewis is in any way responsible for the Bengals' success and that he was deserving of Coach-of-the-Year is as foolish and gullible as one can get.

[Kingspoint]

Before Marvin's first year, Tony Kornheiser said that if Marvin won six games, he should automatically win coach of the year honors. Which shows you how far this franchise has come under Lewis.



Oh my God! Give me a break.

Mike Brown has made the changes, not Marvin Lewis. Every thing Marvin Lewis has done has been wrong. Mike Brown tried to include him on draft day, but he took that away from him after the disaster of Chris Perry.

Mike Brown has done well since then, and it was Mike Brown who chose Housh and Chad from Oregon State. Carson Palmer was handed to them because they sucked so badly the year before. It was Marvin Lewis who insisted that Eric Ghiaciuc would be a good Center. That great thinking wasted 3 years all by itself.

If Mike Zimmer wasn't here they'd have won 6 games or less this season, and that was Mike Brown's decision. Any participation by Marvin in that decision was luck, at best on Marvin's part as we had already seen the last 4 years what he thought Defensive Coordinators credentials should be.

Marvin Lewis is a joke.

Thank you Mike Brown for the changes you've made the last few years, the drafting of Joseph and Hall, and the number of defensive 1st Round picks you've built up the last several years, no thanks to any talent evaluation going on by Marvin Lewis.

[Redsfaithful]

lol so Mike Brown chose Zimmer, but it was Marvin Lewis who chose Bresnahan. Where are you getting this stuff? Are you related to Mike Brown?

[Redsfaithful]

I don't think it is a fair comparison because of the relative competition those teams faced. The NFC West is an awful division and when you couple that with the fact that the NFC has been relatively down compared to the AFC over the past decade it is much easier to perform the worst to first routine. The AFC North has arguably been the strongest division in football over the past decade and with the Colts, Steelers, and Patriots consistently better than their NFC counterparts it makes it that much more difficult to get over the hump.

This is so true, and I wish the media would acknowledge this every once in a while. The Bengals are basically in the division with football's New York Yankees, and it's not like the Ravens are bad either. Put the Bengals in the NFC West or NFC North or somewhere comparable and Marvin arguably might have won a division title in any of these years: 03, 04, 05, 06, 07, 09

Meanwhile Shayne Graham makes one kick in 2006 and the Bengals would have been a playoff team in three of the past five years.

I just don't think it can get any better with Mike Brown owning the team.

[Hoosier Red]

It's hard to give Marvin a fair evaluation because of Brown's involvement. A perfect example is the staff, Brown makes those decisions, not Marvin. I think if he could have, he probably would have fired Brat several years ago.



To be fair Marvin has been given the leeway to fire two defensive coordinators. What makes you think he doesn't have the ability to determine his own coordinators?

[Sea Ray]

Sure, his higher responsibility makes him technically accountable for such things, but I'd have a hard time sitting in a job evaluation with Brat and saying, "well, Bob, we're going to go another direction. Too many false starts in your regime."




A lack of discipline is a very valid reason to fire an offensive coordinator. Put another way, if a team executes poorly year after year, I blame the O coordinator. The execution of this offense was atrocious in 2009 and it goes beyond false starts. It also involves poor route running by the receivers and missed blocking assignments. Simply put I can think of very little that Bratkowski did well.

[traderumor]

A lack of discipline is a very valid reason to fire an offensive coordinator. Put another way, if a team executes poorly year after year, I blame the O coordinator. The execution of this offense was atrocious in 2009 and it goes beyond false starts. It also involves poor route running by the receivers and missed blocking assignments. Simply put I can think of very little that Bratkowski did well.I'd call it a blend of lack of talent (receivers) and inexperience (receivers and Oline). But, whatever.

[Tony Cloninger]

How anyone can thank Mike Brown after wasted years of the 90's and the continuing inability...to hire a competent GM or more scouts ...I mean I am stunned at the blind following that anyone would have for this person.

Mike Brown has basically said...I want to run my football operations like Pittsburgh...but I will not hire a real GM....while having a man who's experience goes as far as being a High School Coach...be the Director of Pro Football Operations (Jim Lippincott)....AND I will build my team almost 100% through the draft but have the smallest scouting department in all of football....while having my coaches ...who as if they are not busy enough during the year.... look at film of these college players and try to evaluate them within a month or 2...and personnel one on one workouts. The record of horrid draft moves and late round non factors boggle the mind.

[camisadelgolf]

When it comes to the NFL draft over the past few years, the Bengals have been about average. That's not going to cut it, but I don't think we can solely blame the size of the scouting department.

[Tony Cloninger]

I blame the ...IF not all of the 90's on Brown and his scouting staff of maybe 2. Anyone heard of Frank Smouse? He was one of the scouts and he was barely full time. The other ones you can count on half a hand. The fact that the last drafts have been average is thanks to Marvin having more pull..IMO. Which does not make it any better but it could be worse and will get worse if another puppet is installed as Head Coach.

[Redsfaithful]

A lack of discipline is a very valid reason to fire an offensive coordinator. Put another way, if a team executes poorly year after year, I blame the O coordinator. The execution of this offense was atrocious in 2009 and it goes beyond false starts. It also involves poor route running by the receivers and missed blocking assignments. Simply put I can think of very little that Bratkowski did well.

They definitely need a new wide receivers coach, but I can't put poor route running on Bratkowski. He's calling plays and designing a playbook, not coaching up receivers.

[Redhook]

Marvin Lewis is a joke.

Thank you Mike Brown for the changes you've made the last few years, the drafting of Joseph and Hall, and the number of defensive 1st Round picks you've built up the last several years, no thanks to any talent evaluation going on by Marvin Lewis.

Now C'mon. Thanking Mike Brown for anything is taking it too far. I understand your dislike for Marvin, but Mike Brown hasn't changed and is certainly not the reason the Bengals have had 2 winning seasons out of the last 5. Mike Brown is an embarrassment to Cincinnati Bengals football and that will likely never change.

[Kingspoint]

Now C'mon. Thanking Mike Brown for anything is taking it too far. I understand your dislike for Marvin, but Mike Brown hasn't changed and is certainly not the reason the Bengals have had 2 winning seasons out of the last 5. Mike Brown is an embarrassment to Cincinnati Bengals football and that will likely never change.

Putting all dislike for anyone aside, this was a great reward for the entire team. They get to be proud for having earned it together as a team. I'm sure they are all proud to have earned it for Marvin Lewis. It can only make everyone on the team closer.

[traderumor]

You didn't read the post. I was extremely clear. There has never been any "interest" for the worst Head Coach in the NFL. "Interest" is brandied about all the time while Head Coaches are still under contract. My jab is fact.Reading this and your subsequent posts, it is clear that you have an extreme view, bringing into question any "facts" you may attempt to present.

[redsfandan]

Bengals special teams coach Darrin Simmons says that Shayne Graham's two misses in the Wild Card loss to the Jets has put the kicker's future with the organization under the microscope.

The Cincinnati Enquirer has already reported that the Bengals will "very likely" let Graham walk as a free agent and Simmons did nothing to quiet that notion. "Snaps were good. Holds were good. There’s no excuse. He picked a hell of a time to have a bad game," Simmons said.

[redsfandan]

I haven't been in this thread since 1/12 but I felt I should still respond to this post:

Replace Coles with a different vet receiver who can actually catch a ball consistently, and our offense is 2x better already.

Our running game is very good. We have a QB.... who USED to be pretty dominate (what happened!?) Hopefully he bounces back. I think you have to count on that. We have an elite receiver. We just need another solid receiver and a TE who can catch a ball. There is a chance that we have these needs on the team already.

What I mean is I'd rather have Average offense + Great Defense instead of Good offense + Good defense.

Maybe I just think the offense is easier to correct than you do. A new OC would instantly improve our offense IMO.
I think that's part of it but I also think that the defense already has the potential to be one of the very best next year and it just doesn't seem like you share that view.

Between key players missing time due to injury (Odom/Peko/etc) and inexperience (Maualuga/Rivers should only improve with more experience) I think the defense is in pretty good shape with a little better luck as far as injuries go. I'm in no way saying that they shouldn't add to the defense. I just think the offense is a higher priority. The defense wasn't a problem in '09. The offense was a problem.

[KoryMac5]

Improving the team speed on offense could and should help. I would definitely look at adding speed at the WR position as well as the TE position. We need a burner on the edge who can stretch the field. Look at the seperation the Colts got yesterday with Garcon and Collie, both pretty speedy receivers who run good routes.

I am all for taking a wideout or a TE in the first round if a good one is there.

[ChazzReinhold]

Bengals special teams coach Darrin Simmons says that Shayne Graham's two misses in the Wild Card loss to the Jets has put the kicker's future with the organization under the microscope.

The Cincinnati Enquirer has already reported that the Bengals will "very likely" let Graham walk as a free agent and Simmons did nothing to quiet that notion. "Snaps were good. Holds were good. There’s no excuse. He picked a hell of a time to have a bad game," Simmons said.

What about the '05 playoffs? What about the '06 regular season miss vs PIttsburgh? It's not like his performance to choke in big games was an abberation.

With all that said, WR should be the #1 target for the Bengals. If they don't pick a WR, Greshman should be the choice if he's still available.

[TeamSelig]

I haven't been in this thread since 1/12 but I felt I should still respond to this post:

I think that's part of it but I also think that the defense already has the potential to be one of the very best next year and it just doesn't seem like you share that view.

Between key players missing time due to injury (Odom/Peko/etc) and inexperience (Maualuga/Rivers should only improve with more experience) I think the defense is in pretty good shape with a little better luck as far as injuries go. I'm in no way saying that they shouldn't add to the defense. I just think the offense is a higher priority. The defense wasn't a problem in '09. The offense was a problem.

I think we have a potentially great defense, I just think we lack any kind of depth.

[Sea Ray]

I think we have a potentially great defense, I just think we lack any kind of depth.

We must have had very good depth this year in order to survive all the injuries. We lost Odom, Rey M, Tank, Roy Williams, Peko, Jeanty, & Crocker to significant injuries this year. That's an awful lot. I'd say their depth was very good to be able to withstand all of that.

[TeamSelig]

We played pretty poorly at the end of the season too. We still played okay once Odom was hurt, but when Peko got hurt, it really killed us.

[Kingspoint]

We played pretty poorly at the end of the season too. We still played okay once Odom was hurt, but when Peko got hurt, it really killed us.

Rotoworld thinks we should draft a DT with their first 2010 Mock Draft.

[KoryMac5]

Rotoworld thinks we should draft a DT with their first 2010 Mock Draft.

So far the mock's have been all over the board on the Bengals. Several stating a WR or TE and some saying we should go with defense. I would love a speedy wideout or a good TE, depends on the combine and who falls to us I suppose.

[bucksfan2]

So far the mock's have been all over the board on the Bengals. Several stating a WR or TE and some saying we should go with defense. I would love a speedy wideout or a good TE, depends on the combine and who falls to us I suppose.

Hernandez = Chase Coffmann. The Bengals employ a block first, catch pass second form or TE. Think Heath Miller or Todd Heap. Taking Hernandez, whom I have seen some mock drafts predict, makes little sense to me. The guy isn't the type of TE the Bengals use.

My list would be LT, WR, S, RB, QB, CB in that order. LT is the obvious need. Shift Whitworth back to G and get a bonified LT to help with the pass blocking. Need a WR to stretch the field. I would entertain trade ideas for both Marshall and Boldin, but use a 2nd rounder to try to fill that void. S is the next pressing need with depth needed at RB (especially one who can play in the return game), QB (Carson's heir apparent), and CB.

[Redsfaithful]

I think Whitworth only gave up one sack this year for whatever it's worth, and Marvin has been pretty vocal about him being great at left tackle. I think they see him as a good fit there, so I'm hoping they get a guard in the second round. Whitworth-New Guard-Cook-Williams-Smith could be a pretty decent line I think.

I think they need offensive help myself, but I also wouldn't be opposed to getting a safety in the first round. I'm hoping for safety or wide receiver first round and then best player available that fits after that.

[camisadelgolf]

I would love for the Bengals to draft an interior lineman as long as he projects to be elite. If the Bengals had Steve Hutchinson, it would have had a huge impact on their offensive production imo.

[Tony Cloninger]

Just do not ignore the defense....like they ignored the offense pretty much in 05-08.....and before you realize it...your offense sucks beacuse of injuries/bad later picks you do get or players who under-achieve.

It happened in the late 80's when they went all out on defense and kept drafting lineman really late in the draft....and think McNally would turn them to gold like he did Kozerski and Reimers and Montoya...who were drafted after the 5th-6th rounds. Before you know it...you have Kevin Sargent manning the LT and people like Ken Moyer and Scott Brumfield manning your G positions.

[joshnky]

My list would be LT, WR, S, RB, QB, CB in that order. LT is the obvious need.

The Bengals window of opportunity is now so they need an impact player. The "impact" left tackles will be gone long before the Bengals pick, although they could draft a guard who could come in and start right away. And, whether he ends up their or not, they drafted their LT last year in Andre Smith. It may have been a bad pick but a top ten tackle should fill that position not right tackle.

[bucksfan2]

The Bengals window of opportunity is now so they need an impact player. The "impact" left tackles will be gone long before the Bengals pick, although they could draft a guard who could come in and start right away. And, whether he ends up their or not, they drafted their LT last year in Andre Smith. It may have been a bad pick but a top ten tackle should fill that position not right tackle.

They drafted Andre Smith to be a RT.

[Yachtzee]

Just do not ignore the defense....like they ignored the offense pretty much in 05-08.....and before you realize it...your offense sucks beacuse of injuries/bad later picks you do get or players who under-achieve.

It happened in the late 80's when they went all out on defense and kept drafting lineman really late in the draft....and think McNally would turn them to gold like he did Kozerski and Reimers and Montoya...who were drafted after the 5th-6th rounds. Before you know it...you have Kevin Sargent manning the LT and people like Ken Moyer and Scott Brumfield manning your G positions.

I don't know if they've really ignored offense during those years. I think the problem is that the offensive players they've drafted haven't had the success that some of their defensive draft picks have had.

[RedEye]

I haven't been the biggest Brat supporter over the years, but to be fair he had some pretty difficult personnel issues to deal with this year.

1) Depleted WR corps -- The losses of TJ and Slim were huge and never really overcome. Ocho was rejuvenated this year, but Coles never really figured out the playbook (and/or fell of the performance cliff that a lot of 30 year-old WR do). Caldwell flashed but was still too young and inconsistent to be dependable every game. Without his customary array of wideouts, Carson was left to throw to Coats (stone hands), Foschi (passable) and a cast of misfits way more often than he should have.

2) I also think the offensive line, while much better than anyone expected in the pre-season, also had serious weaknesses in pass blocking. I think by the end of the year Brat was actually pretty limited in his repertoire for play calling simply because the O was struggling so badly in certain facets of the game. It was too late to start over, so they just tried to keep going with what worked (Ced 25+ times a game with a few passes to Chad). For good teams, that was just too easy to stop. Heck, even for a solid playoff team like the J-E-T-S, it was too one-dimensional.

If they don't go with a wideout or a TE in the first round to address the first need, I kind of hope they go for a good G to line up next to Andre Smith on the right side. Bobbie Williams is getting old and you can never have too many OL. With Whitworth, Mathis, Cook, a new draftee and Smith starting while Roland and Livings rotate in, I think the OL could really establish something solid to go along with an improving D. Then we might really have something here.

[Redsfaithful]

I have read rumors that Coles was more hurt than they let on publicly, which I kind of hope is true as it would mean he might bounce back next year with better health.

[Kingspoint]

I haven't been the biggest Brat supporter over the years, but to be fair he had some pretty difficult personnel issues to deal with this year.

1) Depleted WR corps -- The losses of TJ and Slim were huge and never really overcome. Ocho was rejuvenated this year, but Coles never really figured out the playbook (and/or fell of the performance cliff that a lot of 30 year-old WR do). Caldwell flashed but was still too young and inconsistent to be dependable every game. Without his customary array of wideouts, Carson was left to throw to Coats (stone hands), Foschi (passable) and a cast of misfits way more often than he should have.

2) I also think the offensive line, while much better than anyone expected in the pre-season, also had serious weaknesses in pass blocking. I think by the end of the year Brat was actually pretty limited in his repertoire for play calling simply because the O was struggling so badly in certain facets of the game. It was too late to start over, so they just tried to keep going with what worked (Ced 25+ times a game with a few passes to Chad). For good teams, that was just too easy to stop. Heck, even for a solid playoff team like the J-E-T-S, it was too one-dimensional.

If they don't go with a wideout or a TE in the first round to address the first need, I kind of hope they go for a good G to line up next to Andre Smith on the right side. Bobbie Williams is getting old and you can never have too many OL. With Whitworth, Mathis, Cook, a new draftee and Smith starting while Roland and Livings rotate in, I think the OL could really establish something solid to go along with an improving D. Then we might really have something here.

I would love to see Idaho's G/T Iupati join the Bengals' Offensive Line. Can't have too many good Samoans, what with their strength of character, determinedness, and flat-out nastiness on the field. But, as you pointed out, my first choice would be a Tight End. If we're going to commit to the run, then either of those players would be excellent first round choices.

[mash3024]

Unfortunately, I wonder what the penalty will be for Maualuga next year for his DUI last night? Is it to much to ask to take a cab every now and then.

[SeeinRed]

Unfortunately, I wonder what the penalty will be for Maualuga next year for his DUI last night? Is it to much to ask to take a cab every now and then.

Doesn't the first offense involve a fine and entering a substance abuse program. I don't think he will miss any games, but the league will definately be watching him closely. Its dissapointing, but everyone makes mistakes. This is his first and hopefully his last.

Unfortunately, I can here it coming already. People claiming it is an example that nothing has changed with the Bengals. I don't throw him on the list of former Bengals with discipline problems unless it happens again. He wasn't even around when the Bengals were the "thugs" of the NFL.

[mash3024]

Doesn't the first offense involve a fine and entering a substance abuse program. I don't think he will miss any games, but the league will definately be watching him closely. Its dissapointing, but everyone makes mistakes. This is his first and hopefully his last.

Unfortunately, I can here it coming already. People claiming it is an example that nothing has changed with the Bengals. I don't throw him on the list of former Bengals with discipline problems unless it happens again. He wasn't even around when the Bengals were the "thugs" of the NFL.

I wasn't sure how they reacted with the first offense so hopefully that is correct.

Now that I'm thinking about it, didn't the same happen to Leon Hall last year without suspension?

Maualuga seems like a good guy, lets hope this will be his first and only offense.

[TeamSelig]

Another reason why we need good depth. Our players can't even stay out of trouble for a month past the season ends.

[macro]

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_4mYJaIIASxk/R6vQ2JrM6_I/AAAAAAAAAFk/ohISYsMuVQY/s400/ringling+brothers+circus+discount+code.jpg

PRESENTS

Your 2010 Cincinnati Bengals

http://cdn.bleacherreport.com/images_root/image_pictures/0465/7194/119325_feature.jpg

http://www.yardbarker.com/author/article_external/2032714

[bucksfan2]

I would take TO at this stage in his career. One year, incentive laden deal. Character wise in Buffalo he was pretty good. TO would allow the Bengals to draft a WR a little later and use the 1st rounder on an OT or TE.

[Kingspoint]

I would take TO at this stage in his career. One year, incentive laden deal. Character wise in Buffalo he was pretty good. TO would allow the Bengals to draft a WR a little later and use the 1st rounder on an OT or TE.

I'd rather trade our 2nd or 3rd Rounder to Arizona for Boldin. He's tough as nails and doesn't have alligator arms. Palmer has enough Wide Receivers dropping passes than to add to the mix the 2nd worst pass-dropper in the league, next to Braylon Edwards.

[Redsfan320]

I would take TO at this stage in his career. One year, incentive laden deal. Character wise in Buffalo he was pretty good. TO would allow the Bengals to draft a WR a little later and use the 1st rounder on an OT or TE.

NO! This man is a cancer everywhere he goes, and all Palmer needs is someone like him on the field to distract. Besides, imagine how he and Ochocinco would fuel each other. :eek:

320

[LoganBuck]

NO! This man is a cancer everywhere he goes, and all Palmer needs is someone like him on the field to distract. Besides, imagine how he and Ochocinco would fuel each other. :eek:

320

Two negatives make a positive!

[KoryMac5]

I'd rather trade our 2nd or 3rd Rounder to Arizona for Boldin. He's tough as nails and doesn't have alligator arms. Palmer has enough Wide Receivers dropping passes than to add to the mix the 2nd worst pass-dropper in the league, next to Braylon Edwards.

Plus after you cut Coles you can use the savings to sign Boldin to a new contract. Boldin isn't going to go anywhere without a new deal.

[Yachtzee]

If the Bengals pick up a free agent receiver, I would hope it's either a deep threat or someone who can hold onto the ball when going across the middle. Does either description fit TO at this point?

[CTA513]

Boldin has problems staying healthy

[camisadelgolf]

I'm watching an NFL bloopers show on CBS, and Chip Morton (strength and conditioning coach) had me cracking up. He showed all his different tactics for finding ways to get on TV by standing next to head coaches. For example, during the locker room prayers, he always make sure to grab Marvin's hand.

[Degenerate39]

A friend of mine saw that the Bengals may go after TO on ESPN. And Chad Ocho Cinco posted on Facebook that Terrell would be a Bengal next season. Anyone have any thoughts or comments about this?

[Eric_the_Red]

A friend of mine saw that the Bengals may go after TO on ESPN. And Chad Ocho Cinco posted on Facebook that Terrell would be a Bengal next season. Anyone have any thoughts or comments about this?

The Bengals must really want me to become a full-fledged Colts fan. Maybe they will sign Donte Stallworth and Mike Vick too.

[CTA513]

If they risk bringing in a guy that can tear a team apart then they should also re-sign Odell Thurman once hes reinstated.

[Joseph]

If they risk bringing in a guy that can tear a team apart then they should also re-sign Odell Thurman once hes reinstated.

At least he might still have something to offer on the field.

[Yachtzee]

So far, the only source seems to be Ochocinco, who isn't exactly Nostrodamus.

[Danny Serafini]

The Bengals must really want me to become a full-fledged Colts fan. Maybe they will sign Donte Stallworth and Mike Vick too.

So funny you would say that:

http://cincinnati.com/blogs/bengals/2010/02/11/bengals-have-interest-in-jones/


The team is also expected to have interest in former Cleveland receiver Dante Stallworth, who was released by the Browns on Monday after being reinstated by Commissioner Roger Goodell after the Super Bowl.

That's actually the best sounding idea in the article. It also says the team offered Matt Jones a contract and worked out Pacman Jones. Let the fun begin!

[macro]

Since this has been discussed here (http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=79894&page=10), let's merge the threads.

[Tony Cloninger]

This is truly garbage. It makes them look like cheap jokes who know they cannot afford anyone else. Is there some way to make me stop liking this team? Some magic elixir?

[camisadelgolf]

Say waht you want aboutt the Bengals being cheap ndaand taxkking risks on 'bad character' playersm , but cany you c9imagine the 2Benals withous Cded　Bejnson? IF not for him, rthey douldn
t go t the playoffs.

[Playadlc]

A friend of mine saw that the Bengals may go after TO on ESPN. And Chad Ocho Cinco posted on Facebook that Terrell would be a Bengal next season. Anyone have any thoughts or comments about this?

I love it. If it helps get us more points on the board, do it.

If we signed TO, would any team be talked about more this off-season?

[RedFanAlways1966]

Say waht you want aboutt the Bengals being cheap ndaand taxkking risks on 'bad character' playersm , but cany you c9imagine the 2Benals withous Cded　Bejnson? IF not for him, rthey douldn
t go t the playoffs.

Huh? I might need to see an eye doctor b/c my eyes are getting funky when trying to read this. ;)

camisadelgolf, you posting after drinking?!? :beerme:

[RedEye]

Pacman Jones? Matt Jones? Donte Stallworth?

Man, I'm the first guy to defend the Bengals in some of their character renovation projects of the past. I actually tend to think certain stories about "character" catch the media's eye and then get blown way out of proportion (teams aren't paying these guys to be choir boys, after all). But still... these three would seem to be the very height of irresponsibility mixed with talent. Pacman Jones in particular makes TO look like... well... a pretty harmless sideshow act. Wow.

[KoryMac5]

I don't have a problem with Owens. I live about 1.5 hrs from Buffalo and he was pretty much a model citizen for the Bills last season. He had quite a few opportunities to explode and he was pretty consistently goaded by the Buffalo press to melt down and he never took the bait. Plus the guy caught 55 balls for a 15 yd average with Fitzpatrick being his QB all season. I wouldn't mind giving him a shot but I think you have to put Ocho-Uno on a short leash here.

Stallworth might be worth a gamble, however I want no part of Pacman Jones or Matt Jones here.

[SeeinRed]

I would think that working these players out and looking into what they offer to the team is a worthwhile task. You can really hit lightning in a bottle with some of these players. Sure some don't work out, and the Bengals haven't shown the ability to cut bait before it goes too far, but if done right you can get some talented players on the cheap. Its easier to judge talent than character though.

I think a lot of this story just gets blown out of proportion because its the Bengals and they are "interested" in a player with a history of misbehaviour. How much actual interest the Bengals have in these players is irrelevant to some of these outlets report it.

[bucksfan2]

I really don't care about Matt Jones. If he is clean, and able to help the Bengals out then I am all for it. Pacman and Stallworth I want to part of. I would be fine with TO, he would a little better WR than TJ is at this point in his career. A little more speed but more of an over the middle possession WR.

A few years ago the Reds took a pretty big gamble on a recovered drug addict. It was a feel good story, unfortunately when the Bengals take a chance its the "same old Bungles".

[WVRed]

Say waht you want aboutt the Bengals being cheap ndaand taxkking risks on 'bad character' playersm , but cany you c9imagine the 2Benals withous Cded　Bejnson? IF not for him, rthey douldn
t go t the playoffs.

Never drink and type.

[WVRed]

So funny you would say that:

http://cincinnati.com/blogs/bengals/2010/02/11/bengals-have-interest-in-jones/



That's actually the best sounding idea in the article. It also says the team offered Matt Jones a contract and worked out Pacman Jones. Let the fun begin!

Just because I like this now:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wYV9w9O8KpY

[Hoosier Red]

I really don't care about Matt Jones. If he is clean, and able to help the Bengals out then I am all for it. Pacman and Stallworth I want to part of. I would be fine with TO, he would a little better WR than TJ is at this point in his career. A little more speed but more of an over the middle possession WR.

A few years ago the Reds took a pretty big gamble on a recovered drug addict. It was a feel good story, unfortunately when the Bengals take a chance its the "same old Bungles".


Of the guys who had issues before they came to the Bengals, how many have ended up being problems here?

Roy Williams(generally regarded as an uncoachable pain)
Tank Williams(enough firearms to invade Canada)
Ced Benson(Two arrests)

All were good soldiers with the Bengals and truly seemed to appreciate that this was their last chance.


I guess Deltha O'Neal did get arrested but that's going back 4-5 years.

[camisadelgolf]

Huh? I might need to see an eye doctor b/c my eyes are getting funky when trying to read this. ;)

camisadelgolf, you posting after drinking?!? :beerme:
:eek: Wow. I totally don't remember typing that.

[bucksfan2]

Of the guys who had issues before they came to the Bengals, how many have ended up being problems here?

Roy Williams(generally regarded as an uncoachable pain)
Tank Williams(enough firearms to invade Canada)
Ced Benson(Two arrests)

All were good soldiers with the Bengals and truly seemed to appreciate that this was their last chance.


I guess Deltha O'Neal did get arrested but that's going back 4-5 years.

Being a Bengals fan and being close to the situation its pretty annoying and disappointing how much press they now get for bad apples. If my memory serves me correct Maualuga is the only Bengal to get arrested over the last season +. But when the Bengals decide to try out Pacman (who I would boo everytime he steps on the field) and Matt Jones the media comes out in force against them. Not to mention that Tennessee offered him a contract. And Tennessee being the team that gave Pacman multiple chances.

I was completely against the Tank signing, but in his time as a Bengal he was a model citizen (from what I know) and I believe he even started a charity last season.

[Newport Red]

Sign a few of those players and Hard Knocks will be pleading to film the Bengals again.

[Hoosier Red]

Being a Bengals fan and being close to the situation its pretty annoying and disappointing how much press they now get for bad apples. If my memory serves me correct Maualuga is the only Bengal to get arrested over the last season +. But when the Bengals decide to try out Pacman (who I would boo everytime he steps on the field) and Matt Jones the media comes out in force against them. Not to mention that Tennessee offered him a contract. And Tennessee being the team that gave Pacman multiple chances.

I was completely against the Tank signing, but in his time as a Bengal he was a model citizen (from what I know) and I believe he even started a charity last season.

Well that's actually my point the problem with the Bengals over the years wasn't so much the repeat offenders(though Henry and Thurman would qualify) but rather the sheer number of players who were arrested. It's my experience that most of these players do much better once they've had to sit out for any extended period of time.
In effect, the Bengals are exploiting an inefficiency in the system by letting other teams drop talented guys, and picking up guys who are looking to redeem themselves.

Many people make fun of the Mike Brown redeemer quote but there's a lot worse things you can say about him.

[yab1112]

From Profootballtalk.com:


Matt Jones Picks the Bengals

Mike Brown and Marvin Lewis have picked up another reclamation project.

Matt Jones will join the Bengals, according to ESPN's Chris Mortensen. Unlike a potential Pacman Jones signing, this looks like a smart bet for the Bengals.

Jones is not a great big play threat, but we think he's got somewhat of a bad rap as a player. He occasionally took over games in 2008 with the Jaguars and is a difficult guy to defend on third downs and the red zone.

The Bengals wideout group was lacking size and speed last year. Jones gives them some size at a very cheap price. He knows this could be his last chance in the NFL.

If Jones doesn't impress this summer, the Bengals could drop him with nothing less. We think it's more likely that he allows them to cut Laveranues Coles and save some money.

[Tony Cloninger]

In my opinion, MB's sole motivation, as always, is money. He can sign players like this for less money. And that means more money in his pocket. And generally, the players are talented and would probably be worth more than MB is paying them if it weren't for their.....um.....indiscretions.

Mike Brown doesn't make ANY decision without careful consideration of the financial benefits to the Brown family. I'm not saying that IT is Completely wrong, but it generally does not bode well for success on the field as we fans well know over the past umpteen years.

Not every redeemed player is going to work out and the odds are it ends worse than the possible benefits that could come out of it.

[bucksfan2]

From Profootballtalk.com:

Matt Jones Picks the Bengals

Mike Brown and Marvin Lewis have picked up another reclamation project.

Matt Jones will join the Bengals, according to ESPN's Chris Mortensen. Unlike a potential Pacman Jones signing, this looks like a smart bet for the Bengals.

Jones is not a great big play threat, but we think he's got somewhat of a bad rap as a player. He occasionally took over games in 2008 with the Jaguars and is a difficult guy to defend on third downs and the red zone.

The Bengals wideout group was lacking size and speed last year. Jones gives them some size at a very cheap price. He knows this could be his last chance in the NFL.

If Jones doesn't impress this summer, the Bengals could drop him with nothing less. We think it's more likely that he allows them to cut Laveranues Coles and save some money.


Everything in this article makes complete sense to me. Coles was bad last season and the Bengals should rid themselves of his contract. Jones, may be a wild card, but if he is good this year he helps the Bengals, if he is bad they cut him without losing much.

I know some, many in Bengal world, will view this as Mike Brown being cheep. But I think this makes perfect football sense. In what sport isn't it key to find younger, cheaper, and better players?

[camisadelgolf]

In the case against Matt Jones, I don't think he's as bad of a character guy as a lot of us are making him out to be. His first conviction was for having cocaine in his car. He had someone else in the car with him at the time, and he denied that the cocaine belonged to him. The second arrest came because he violated probation by testing positive for alcohol. Yes, alcohol. Jones clearly isn't a saint, but it's not like he beats his wife.

[CTA513]

Hopefully Jones has cleaned his act up and can help the Bengals at a position they need help at.

[Hoosier Red]

In my opinion, MB's sole motivation, as always, is money. He can sign players like this for less money. And that means more money in his pocket. And generally, the players are talented and would probably be worth more than MB is paying them if it weren't for their.....um.....indiscretions.

Mike Brown doesn't make ANY decision without careful consideration of the financial benefits to the Brown family. I'm not saying that IT is Completely wrong, but it generally does not bode well for success on the field as we fans well know over the past umpteen years.

Not every redeemed player is going to work out and the odds are it ends worse than the possible benefits that could come out of it.

Though I won't argue against Brown being a spendthrift, he spends to the salary cap every year. Spending less on one player doesn't really save him money.

[camisadelgolf]

Mike Brown spends to the salary cap because he doesn't know how to manipulate it like the rest of the league does. If a different team in the league had the contracts Brown did, they would've done maneuvers to make room under the cap and obtain more expensive, talented players.

[Hoosier Red]

Mike Brown spends to the salary cap because he doesn't know how to manipulate it like the rest of the league does. If a different team in the league had the contracts Brown did, they would've done maneuvers to make room under the cap and obtain more expensive, talented players.

True, Brown's certainly conservative on that front. He's stated his desire to avoid having the contracts build up over the years, though he's shown more creativity on that front recently with the contracts that Chad and Carson signed specifically. Eventually the cap comes back to bite everyone but I wish he'd be more creative about it.

[Eric_the_Red]

I will start to rethink my position of Mike Brown being cheap once the team has a practice bubble and an adequate scouting department.

I'm not sure how I feel about buying tickets & merchandise for the Bengals that help make Mike Brown rich, while he continues to field a traditionally mediocre to poor team, with a roster of guys that have well-documented police blotters.

[Danny Serafini]

In the case against Matt Jones, I don't think he's as bad of a character guy as a lot of us are making him out to be. His first conviction was for having cocaine in his car. He had someone else in the car with him at the time, and he denied that the cocaine belonged to him. The second arrest came because he violated probation by testing positive for alcohol. Yes, alcohol. Jones clearly isn't a saint, but it's not like he beats his wife.

According to the police report an officer witnessed him cutting up some coke in the car. He wasn't some innocent bystander on this one.

http://static.katv.com/news/jones2.pdf

[camisadelgolf]

According to the police report an officer witnessed him cutting up some coke in the car. He wasn't some innocent bystander on this one.

http://static.katv.com/news/jones2.pdf
Personally, I don't buy Matt Jones' story one bit, but I just mean to say he's not a violent offender or someone who is constantly in the spotlight for his misbehavior. His second arrest was for testing positive for alcohol. Sure, it was dumb and inconsiderate of him, but is that really such a big sign that he's going to constantly be in trouble for his ways?

[TC81190]

I read they signed kicker Dave Rayner to replace Graham.

[Kingspoint]

Boldin has problems staying healthy

Yes, he does. But, what would you rather have? Someone who's healthy for 10 games who catches what's thrown to him or someone who's healthy for 16 games because he doesn't catch what's thrown to him (he's afraid of being hit).

[Kingspoint]

Matt Jones' only problem is he has to quit doing the Coke. And, it has to be for a while. After that "while" happens, he has to work his tail off and get into shape mentally and physically. If all of that happens, he'd be an asset to the team.

[Redhook]

Matt Jones' only problem is he has to quit doing the Coke. And, it has to be for a while. After that "while" happens, he has to work his tail off and get into shape mentally and physically. If all of that happens, he'd be an asset to the team.

So, you like his chances, eh?

[Revering4Blue]

I read they signed kicker Dave Rayner to replace Graham.


WKRC Cincinnati confirms that the Bengals have no plans to retain free agent K Shayne Graham.
The Bengals are dumping Graham, their 2009 franchise player, after one bad season out of the last several. Someone's going to get a pretty good kicker in free agency. Graham is only 32 and offers lots of leg strength.

[KoryMac5]

Graham is only 32 and offers lots of leg strength.

Graham may be accurate but his leg strength leaves a lot to be desired especially on kick offs.

[Kingspoint]

Rotoworld's comments are inaccurate about his leg strength. He's not horrible, but they imply that he's worth the risk of making very many 50+ attempts on a season. That's just not true, especially with the new rules where the other team gets the ball back from the point where the kick was made from and not the line of scrimmage.

Someone will get a good kicker, but you just can't keep a guy who choked so badly for you.

[Kingspoint]

So, you like his chances, eh?

It didn't sound like I did, but I actually do. He should eliminate the need to use a 1st or 2nd Round pick on a Wide Receiver. At least they'll have 10 weeks to figure that out now.

[Danny Serafini]

Personally, I don't buy Matt Jones' story one bit, but I just mean to say he's not a violent offender or someone who is constantly in the spotlight for his misbehavior. His second arrest was for testing positive for alcohol. Sure, it was dumb and inconsiderate of him, but is that really such a big sign that he's going to constantly be in trouble for his ways?

Well, yes. He's showing a pattern of poor judgment. Though to be totally honest my biggest concern isn't him acting stupid, it's the fact that he's not that good of a receiver. To me this signing isn't much more than a scratch off ticket.

[Yachtzee]

Matt Jones - don't mind taking a flyer on him. If it doesn't work out, you can let him go. As far as his record goes, drugs and alcohol are problems that can be overcome. Lots of good people become addicted to drugs and alcohol and have gone on to become better people after beating their addictions. I see him as strictly a role player though.

Pacman Jones I want no part of. That guys troubles seem to arise from stupidity and a general lack of good character. I'd rather not have him in the locker room with some of the younger players on the team. That seems like a recipe for off-the-field trouble.

[Eric_the_Red]

Everyone says Matt Jones is "no risk". What happens if he makes the team as the #3 receiver, then gets picked up for drugs around week 5? How did this team react after losing the #3 receiver this season? Players with a pattern of making bad choices are certainly a risk.

[LoganBuck]

Everyone says Matt Jones is "no risk". What happens if he makes the team as the #3 receiver, then gets picked up for drugs around week 5? How did this team react after losing the #3 receiver this season? Players with a pattern of making bad choices are certainly a risk.

If Matt Jones makes the team, he is no better than a #4 receiver. You can't depend on him and it would be foolish for the Bengals to assume they can.

[Kingspoint]

Pacman Jones I want no part of. That guys troubles seem to arise from stupidity and a general lack of good character. I'd rather not have him in the locker room with some of the younger players on the team. That seems like a recipe for off-the-field trouble.

Agree. I wouldn't let PacMan Jones around anyone.

[Kingspoint]

If Matt Jones makes the team, he is no better than a #4 receiver. You can't depend on him and it would be foolish for the Bengals to assume they can.

You mean like how you can depend on Andre Caldwell, Jerome Simpson, Leverneaus Coles and Chase Coffman?

[Yachtzee]

If Matt Jones makes the team, he is no better than a #4 receiver. You can't depend on him and it would be foolish for the Bengals to assume they can.

I don't see him as anything more than a role player brought in on passing downs and possibly an option at QB if the Bengals decide to jump on the Wildcat bandwagon.

[LoganBuck]

You mean like how you can depend on Andre Caldwell, Jerome Simpson, Leverneaus Coles and Chase Coffman?

No, you can't depend on him until he proves you can.

Caldwell is role player
Simpson is a bust, doesn't know the playbook, and has been thrown out of practice by Carson Palmer on more than one occasion.
Coles is old and ricketty
Coffman ???

[Kingspoint]

No, you can't depend on him until he proves you can.

Caldwell is role player
Simpson is a bust, doesn't know the playbook, and has been thrown out of practice by Carson Palmer on more than one occasion.
Coles is old and ricketty
Coffman ???

Personally, I'd love to see the Bengals go after and sign on March 5th Jason Avant. Avant can play all three WR's spots that Chad doesn't play, and, though this may be a detriment on him becoming a Bengal, he's as good a person as you'll find. Avant right now is better than every receiver on the Bengals not named Chad. Avant is one of the Top 24 Wide Receivers in the NFL. He's on a team loaded with depth, though. He's an unrestricted Free Agent, so the Eagles can't match, even if there's no CBA. He caught 71% of the passes thrown to him last year.

[sonny]

Personally, I'd love to see the Bengals go after and sign on March 5th Jason Avant. Avant can play all three WR's spots that Chad doesn't play, and, though this may be a detriment on him becoming a Bengal, he's as good a person as you'll find. Avant right now is better than every receiver on the Bengals not named Chad. Avant is one of the Top 24 Wide Receivers in the NFL. He's on a team loaded with depth, though. He's an unrestricted Free Agent, so the Eagles can't match, even if there's no CBA. He caught 71% of the passes thrown to him last year.

I like it. The Bengals certainly need a possesion guy for defenses to worry about so chad or Caldwell, hell even Coles can stretch the field.

[WVRed]

At least now the only time we have to worry about Stallworth is when we play the Ravens twice a year. Signed with Baltimore today per ESPN.

[Redlegs212]

At least now the only time we have to worry about Stallworth is when we play the Ravens twice a year. Signed with Baltimore today per ESPN.

I was getting scared the Bengals were going to sign him..

[Eric_the_Red]

I was getting scared the Bengals were going to sign him..

But I would rather have him than Matt Jones, if they had to pick up a "character cast-off". At least Stallworth had flashes of good play.

[bucksfan2]

But I would rather have him than Matt Jones, if they had to pick up a "character cast-off". At least Stallworth had flashes of good play.

In NE with Welker and Moss beside him. He was nothing special before that or after that in Cleveland.

[Eric_the_Red]

In NE with Welker and Moss beside him. He was nothing special before that or after that in Cleveland.

More special than Matt Jones, who adds nothing to the offense, was my point. I'd rather have neither of them and go after another free agent WR.

[bucksfan2]

More special than Matt Jones, who adds nothing to the offense, was my point. I'd rather have neither of them and go after another free agent WR.

I don't see that an issue. The Bengals basically signed Jones for the minimum. I don't know the contract status, but they may be able to cut him without paying him any money. To me this is kind of like signing DeDe Dorsey to play RB, adds depth but no guarantees.

[Playadlc]

More special than Matt Jones, who adds nothing to the offense, was my point. I'd rather have neither of them and go after another free agent WR.

Jones had almost 800 receiving yards in 08. While I don't expect him to be a 1,000 yards receiver here, he could be a great redzone/3rd down target for us.

I also don't see how signing a guy to a 1 year 700K deal is going to stop us from going out and getting another WR if we deem it necessary.

[WVRed]

More special than Matt Jones, who adds nothing to the offense, was my point. I'd rather have neither of them and go after another free agent WR.

Matt Jones adds size (6'6) and the possibility of a red zone target for Palmer. We lost our red zone target last season with Chris Henry. I think MJ could more than qualify for what we need.

I think we could still sign Terrell Owens as well. Actually, I am hoping we sign TO.

[Eric_the_Red]

Listening to the Bengals coaches that watched his workout, it doesn't sound like Jones adds anything. I saw the Bengals should convert him to TE if he can block.

[Kingspoint]

I'd like to see us go after Kevin Walter. (For the record, I have no personal biases for or against him when he was a Bengal. I'm only looking at his potential value over the next two years based upon what he's done the last two years.) He got lost in the shuffle last year. Schaub wasn't real comfortable with him in the Redzone like he was the year before. He had the highest catch percentage on the Houston staff, though. His catch percentage was also in the low 70's, one of the top-5 in the NFL. Houston's indicated that they are going to go with Jacoby Jones as a starter next year and not retain Walter if Walter gets a decent offer from someone. Walter is an Unrestricted Free Agent with 6+ years of service, so CBA or no CBA, he'll remain Unrestricted.

[WMR]

Walter was a fantasy stud for me two years ago. He would instantly become our 2nd best receiver, IMO. Love the way he plays football. He's a hard-nosed receiver.

[Kingspoint]

Walter was a fantasy stud for me two years ago. He would instantly become our 2nd best receiver, IMO. Love the way he plays football. He's a hard-nosed receiver.

It's not like he doesn't know Brat's system. Who doesn't when it comes down to it?

Oh, wait. Jerome Simpson doesn't.

[camisadelgolf]

It's not like he doesn't know Brat's system. Who doesn't when it comes down to it?

Oh, wait. Jerome Simpson doesn't.
Neither did the Chicago Bears, apparently.

[Tony Cloninger]

I agree with Walter. A Wesley Welker type WR is what Carson needs if he does not have a TE to throw to. Someone he can count on for 3rd down.

They are not going to try a guy who is not that big to begin with and cannot really block at TE...when he was signed a s a WR. They already have one guy who appears useless as a TE for their system drafted last year.

TO is the kind of player that has already messed up teams with thicker skin than this one....him and Chad would be fun if they were winning but a nightmare if they are losing.

[Kingspoint]

Neither did the Chicago Bears, apparently.

No they didn't, did they?

[TC81190]

Just throwing it out there, but would anyone get behind signing the now free agent LT?

[Eric_the_Red]

Just throwing it out there, but would anyone get behind signing the now free agent LT?

Why, was he arrested? ;)

Seriously though, no way. He is done, finished, kaput.

[CTA513]

Just throwing it out there, but would anyone get behind signing the now free agent LT?

Probably not since Benson wants to be the main guy.
LT also looks like hes slowed down but he could probably still help a team out with his pass catching ability.

[TC81190]

Why, was he arrested? ;)

Seriously though, no way. He is done, finished, kaput.
I don't think it would take much, plus I'm sure he is motivated to prove exactly the opposite - that he can still produce.

[TeamSelig]

It would be nice to have a short pass option considering Cedric can't really catch.

[Kingspoint]

It would be nice to have a short pass option considering Cedric can't really catch.

That would be a reason to sign him, but unfortunately, LT is going to have to be humbled, as he's not worth more than $2M a year to anyone. I doubt if he signs with anyone before April.

[CTA513]

It would be nice to have a short pass option considering Cedric can't really catch.

Both Scott and Leonard can catch but Scott didn't seem to see much playing time when Benson was healthy.

[TeamSelig]

Blah.

LT at least gives you some play making ability. Leonard did make some good plays after the catch though.

[Eric_the_Red]

LT's last 4 seasons receiving yards:
06: 508
07: 475
08: 426
09: 154

Rushing avg:
06: 5.2
07: 4.7
08: 3.8
09: 3.3

Not sure what in there suggests anything other than he is following the steep drop-off that 30 yr old RBs all seem to hit. Why would anyone think he would improve next year after 4 years of decline?

[UKFlounder]

In 2005 or 2006, yeah. In 2010? I'm not so sure about that. He didn't give San Diego much play-making ability last year (even the last 2 years).

He does have a big name and big reputation, but the Bengals have far greater needs than a once-great RB (the same way they didn't need to sign Shaun Alexander after Seattle released him.)


Blah.

LT at least gives you some play making ability. Leonard did make some good plays after the catch though.

[WVRed]

In 2005 or 2006, yeah. In 2010? I'm not so sure about that. He didn't give San Diego much play-making ability last year (even the last 2 years).

He does have a big name and big reputation, but the Bengals have far greater needs than a once-great RB (the same way they didn't need to sign Shaun Alexander after Seattle released him.)

Bingo. Remember when people were upset because the Bengals didn't sign the hometown favorite Alexander and opted for Cedric Benson instead?

Pass on LT. He is way past his prime, and Bernard Scott/Brian Leonard are adequate for backups.

[TeamSelig]

Hey, I think he is probably done as a RB, but I was thinking of a 3rd down RB or another pass option. I'm not all for signing him, but I wouldn't be mad if we did.

However, I really hope he proves us all wrong. I did notice that SD seemed to try and use him as a power RB last season. From the games I watched, it seemed like every running play was up the middle where no hole exists.

[TC81190]

Brian Westbrook is out there now too. Definitely didn't see that coming. I didn't know LT had declined til I looked up his stats the other day. Haven't looked at Westbrook's yet.

[Root Down]

I think the Bengals are full up at the RB position. Scott and Leonard will offer more than LT or Westbrook would. I think it would be a huge mistake for them to sign one of those guys, though I know they never will. Brown isn't the type to take an older player that is over the hump. Don't get me wrong, I am an LT fan. I think the guy was a great player and still has a little left in the tank. But, he's not going to offer more than Scott or Leonard would as evidenced by Larry Johnson this year. He's a good possibly great RB, but the Bengals opted to play in house options and use him as an absolute last resort.

[TC81190]

I think the Bengals are full up at the RB position. Scott and Leonard will offer more than LT or Westbrook would. I think it would be a huge mistake for them to sign one of those guys, though I know they never will. Brown isn't the type to take an older player that is over the hump. Don't get me wrong, I am an LT fan. I think the guy was a great player and still has a little left in the tank. But, he's not going to offer more than Scott or Leonard would as evidenced by Larry Johnson this year. He's a good possibly great RB, but the Bengals opted to play in house options and use him as an absolute last resort.
Oh I see what you're saying and I know they wouldn't sign them either. I just tend to disagree that it would be a bad idea, as a combination of the fact that I'm not nearly as high on Leonard and Scott as others are or as sold on the fact that LT/Westbrook are complete toast (more Westbrook than LT.)

I'm just saying, I like the chances of one of them re-emerging and having a productive season a la Ced Benson more so than I like the chances of Scott/Leonard having that kind of season.

[Kingspoint]

Leonard is one of the 5 best "3rd-Down backs" in the NFL right now. I saw several reports saying he was the very best last season. Obviously, this doesn't take into account full-time backs who can also catch, as that list has plenty of players better than Leonard at 3rd downs. But, for pure 3rd-down backs, we have one of the very best in the NFL right now.

Where we could use another Runningback is someone who can be an every-down back in case Cedric Benson gets injured. That player, the Bengals feel, is not Leonard. Since Scott has proven to be an excellent Kick Returner for us, we'd get hurt in the Kick Return department if Scott has to take over for Benson.

The Bengals are definitely going to add another Runningback because of this, but neither Westbrook or LT fall into that mold. Thomas Jones does, though.

[KoryMac5]

Coles was cut today, looks more and more like that top pick in April will be a wide out. Also Graham is very doubtful that he will be resigned as well.

[Playadlc]

We will sign Kevin Walter. I almost guarantee it.

[Eric_the_Red]

We will sign Kevin Walter. I almost guarantee it.

Probably. And the team will still have no deep threat. Wonderful. :bang:

[Mario-Rijo]

Probably. And the team will still have no deep threat. Wonderful. :bang:

That may be true or not. It takes a whole lot less to be the deep threat/decoy and a guy could come out of the draft for just that, look at Henry his 1st year. Sure we missed Chris after he was gone last season but the real problem with this offense was no TJ who worked the underneath routes, consistently made catches (especially on 3rd down), etc. Kevin Walter is actually a really smart acquisition because of his intelligent route running and excellent hands but that would depend on how much money they were to give him. He's not worth TJ money but he'd be a somewhat shrewd move.

That said I would much rather spend the money on a big time TE who can work those underneath routes and/or stretch the field. Enter Ben Watson who would help take the double coverages off by eating up the middle of the field. Caldwell and Ocho could start on the outside and find their deep man in the draft. If they don't appreciate Watson well then there are several intriguing options at TE this offseason and guys who should come cheaper but wouldn't stretch the field quite as well. Bo Scaife is an able blocker and has excellent hands underneath, Owen Daniels would be a risk due to his torn up knee last season but Tony Scheffler wouldn't be a bad fit either although the latter 3 are all RFA's, Watson being unrestricted. I'd also give Anthony Fasano a look as well.

Me I'd sign a couple of solid TE options like Fasano and re-sign Kelly and Foschi and spend the big dollars on Brandon Marshall, be bold it's time to go all in.

[Mario-Rijo]

I should have added my pick for defensive impact player via FA who would be S Nick Collins of GB who is a RFA as well, I believe. I would push some ducks to either he or Marshall. Or could cut Geathers and sign Julius Peppers (but I do not see something like that happening obviously).

[Hoosier Red]

My favorite college athlete of all time just got released by the Redskins.

http://blogs.heraldtimesonline.com/iusp/?p=7443

[Mario-Rijo]

My favorite college athlete of all time just got released by the Redskins.

http://blogs.heraldtimesonline.com/iusp/?p=7443

I wonder if he can still return?

[Kingspoint]

Probably. And the team will still have no deep threat. Wonderful. :bang:

But, they'll have someone with sure hands and more after-the-catch ability than Housh had.

[Kingspoint]

Good thoughts, Mario. But, Tennessee virtually guaranteed that he isn't going anywhere without a sign-and-trade option as they tendered him too high for his value (same with Scheffler, as he was tendered too high for his value, but not as over-valued as Scaife).

[bucksfan2]

I think the cut of Coles makes sense, but I also think he got somewhat of a bad rep around here. It takes time for a WR and QB to get on the same page, it hardly ever happens right away unless you are a great talent. Coles didn't get any help from Carson being held out all of training camp. When he was finally ready to play they were working on game plans instead of working on QB WR timing. I thought Coles would be better this season, but at his cost it made sense to cut him.

[LoganBuck]

The Bears just signed Brandon Manumaleuna to a five year deal. He is a bigger Reggie Kelly type, and they are said to be listening on Greg Olsen. Greg Olsen would be an ideal fit as a downfield pass catcher, from the tight end position. What would it take to acquire him?

[RichRed]

I wonder if he can still return?

Take it from a Redskins fan: No, he can't.

[WVRed]

Adding a receiver through FA isn't looking too good.

Anquan Boldin to the Ravens for 3rd and 4th round picks.

Kevin Walter resigned with Houston (thank God)

Brandon Marshall is likely headed to Seattle.

[Playadlc]

Adding a receiver through FA isn't looking too good.

Anquan Boldin to the Ravens for 3rd and 4th round picks.

Kevin Walter resigned with Houston (thank God)

Brandon Marshall is likely headed to Seattle.

I didn't think T.O. to Cincy would ever happen about a month ago. Now it looks like a strong possibility.