Brady Quinn Traded To Denver

[goreds2]

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=4995081

CLEVELAND -- The Cleveland Browns have traded quarterback Brady Quinn to the Denver Broncos for fullback Peyton Hillis, a 2011 draft pick and a conditional pick in 2012.

The teams announced the trade Sunday and said the deal is pending physicals.

Quinn's departure comes one day after the Browns agreed to terms with free agent Jake Delhomme on a two-year contract.

Quinn went 3-9 in 12 starts for Cleveland, which drafted him in the first round of the 2007 draft.

"I appreciate everything Brady did for us last year and in his three seasons with the Cleveland Browns," coach Eric Mangini said in a statement. "He is professional in the way he goes about doing his job and worked extremely hard at every aspect of his game. I wish him the best of success in Denver."

Click on Link for more......

[CTA513]

Traded picks so they could draft him in the 1st round and then traded him for a RB/FB and 2 late draft picks.

:laugh:

[chicoruiz]

Well, yeah, sure, once you've got the great Jake Delhomme you don't need any other options...

[Joseph]

Holmgren and Mangini must have hated their QBs

[The Operator]

I could imagine Quinn doing well in Denver if given the chance. Especially if they keep Brandon Marshall.

What's going on in Cleveland?

[Yachtzee]

Jake Delhomme and Seneca Wallace. Kind of reminds me of the Bengals era when they started bringing in guys like Neil O'Donnell, Scott Mitchell, and Gus Frerotte. Does Delhomme have anything left in the tank?

[GIDP]

Hes probably better than Derek Anderson

[GAC]

Wallace played for Holmgren and is familiar with the WC offense. They didn't break the bank signing Delhomme to a 2 yr contract w/ Wallace as the backup. Holmgrem is smart enough to know these guys ain't the future, but he did good to shed two ineffective QBs in Anderson and Quinn. Wouldn't be surprised if they don't draft a QB.

He is definitely shaking things up, which I like to see. Plus we have 11 picks in the draft. And I like that a guy like Holmgren has control of them.

[5DOLLAR-BLEACHERBUM]

Traded picks so they could draft him in the 1st round and then traded him for a RB/FB and 2 late draft picks.

:laugh:
Holmgren is in charge now and had nothing to do with the Quinn mistake, he is just trying to cut bait with what has been done in the past. With so many picks in the draft my guess is Sam Bradford will be a Brown. Peyton Hillis was only a fullback out of need. If Moreno hadn't been there it could have been a different outcome for Hillis. I remember Mcdaniel saying in a press conf. that though he likes what Hillis brings to the table he feared using him at the rb spot when Moreno was ineffective because of lack of fullback depth. This guys a horse and paired with the emerging Harrison I'm not too upset about this deal.

[Kingspoint]

What's going on in Cleveland?

They're getting rid of dead weight.

[Eric_the_Red]

They're getting rid of dead weight.

So, they are contracting the franchise?

[Kingspoint]

Hes probably better than Derek Anderson

Not even close.

Coaches and management always wanted to hand the job to Quinn, but Anderson, who was an undrafted bench player, outplayed him every training camp, every OTA, and every season. Both players were doomed to begin with because the Browns relied on two Receivers (they had over 80% of the team's passes thrown to them) in Edwards and Winslow, neither of which could catch half the passes thrown to them. No drive can ever be sustained with two receivers like that, except for the year when Anderson led them to a 10-5 record when he had the reliable hands of Joe Jurevicious and Steve Heiden to throw to on 3rd Down. Derek Anderson could beat opposing teams by throwing the long-ball with great accuracy downfield to Edwards and Winslow, thus constantly keeping defenses deep which opened many holes for an over-the-hill Jamal Lewis to run through. Brady Quinn has a weanie arm and was inaccurate to boot. Think Ryan Fitzpatrick as his ceiling, except Quinn doesn't have half the brains of Fitzpatrick.

Most Cleveland Browns fans were totally clueless when it comes to judging both Derek Anderson and Brady Quinn. They flat out didn't know what they were talking about when they wanted Quinn in over Anderson, while being totally oblivious to Anderson's strength's and Winslow and Edwards weaknesses.

Winslow and Edwards weaknesses got them jettisoned off of the team. You don't trade that much "physical talent" away unless there are other major issues that outweigh the talent. Those issues were both of their abilities to not catch what's thrown to them. Hopefully, they both grow up mature as Receivers and learn how to stay focused.

As far as the future of Quinn and Brady. Anderson has the much brighter future still. Quinn has no arm. Anderson isn't as smart as Quinn, and it takes him longer to learn a system than it does Quinn. But, if Anderson can stay in a system for a couple of seasons, the second season he should become a very capable backup. I don't think Quinn can ever be a capable backup.

Arizona would be the ideal spot for Derek Anderson to be at because their Offensive philosophy fits his style perfectly. Though, I wouldn't be surprised to see him end up in Seattle, as Pete Carroll knows how valuable Anderson's assets can be having coached against him for 5 years at USC. Plus, Anderson can play in that miserable weather they have in Seattle.....the nasty wind and nasty, bitter, and cold rain that they have in November and December.

[Kingspoint]

Wallace played for Holmgren and is familiar with the WC offense. They didn't break the bank signing Delhomme to a 2 yr contract w/ Wallace as the backup. Holmgrem is smart enough to know these guys ain't the future, but he did good to shed two ineffective QBs in Anderson and Quinn. Wouldn't be surprised if they don't draft a QB.

He is definitely shaking things up, which I like to see. Plus we have 11 picks in the draft. And I like that a guy like Holmgren has control of them.

Delhomme is strictly a backup to Seneca Wallace. In no way, shape or form will Delhomme ever outplay Wallace in training camp and earn the starting Quarterback job. Seneca Wallace is very effective, and has averaged more yards per game in his career than Carson Palmer has the last 3 years of his career, along with a better Touchdown to Interception ratio.

[GIDP]

Delhomme is strictly a backup to Seneca Wallace. In no way, shape or form will Delhomme ever outplay Wallace in training camp and earn the starting Quarterback job. Seneca Wallace is very effective, and has averaged more yards per game in his career than Carson Palmer has the last 3 years of his career, along with a better Touchdown to Interception ratio.

The dudes career is a Carson Palmer season. Lets not get ahead of ourselves with the praise of a career back up.

[The Operator]

The dudes career is a Carson Palmer season. Lets not get ahead of ourselves with the praise of a career back up.

This.

[Kingspoint]

The dudes career is a Carson Palmer season. Lets not get ahead of ourselves with the praise of a career back up.

A "former" Carson Palmer season....certainly not as bad as one of the last 3 seasons of Palmer.

I have a strong feeling that neither of you have watched Seneca Wallace's starts....certainly not as many as 6 of them from start to finish (and probably not even one of them from start to finish) so you'd have a decent idea of what type of Quarterback he currently is.

He's a huge upgrade over Quinn, and he's much better than Delhomme is right now. I'd rather have Carson than Wallace, hoping that Carson, somehow, returns to resemble the old Carson just a little bit.

Seneca Wallace will help Cleveland win some games the next couple of years while they continue their search for a franchise Quarterback.

[GIDP]

A "former" Carson Palmer season....certainly not as bad as one of the last 3 seasons of Palmer.

I have a strong feeling that neither of you have watched Seneca Wallace's starts....certainly not as many as 6 of them from start to finish (and probably not even one of them from start to finish) so you'd have a decent idea of what type of Quarterback he currently is.

He's a huge upgrade over Quinn, and he's much better than Delhomme is right now. I'd rather have Carson than Wallace, hoping that Carson, somehow, returns to resemble the old Carson just a little bit.

Seneca Wallace will help Cleveland win some games the next couple of years while they continue their search for a franchise Quarterback.

I think you are a little over the top. Palmer had 3000 yards this year and Wallace has 3,500 in his career. Palmer had 21 TD and 13 INT last year and Wallace has 25 and 14 for his career. I dont want to say the guy sucks but seriously his career is basically a bad Palmer season, and thats just looking at the simplest of numbers. Hard to suggest some of the things you are suggesting.

[GAC]

Delhomme is strictly a backup to Seneca Wallace. In no way, shape or form will Delhomme ever outplay Wallace in training camp and earn the starting Quarterback job. Seneca Wallace is very effective, and has averaged more yards per game in his career than Carson Palmer has the last 3 years of his career, along with a better Touchdown to Interception ratio.

Hey, you may be right. I'll be the first to admit that I don't know squat about Wallace because my observations of his play have been limited, and that the reason Holmgren went after him is because Mike does, and Seneca is very familiar with his offense.

And your observations on their receivers was spot on. The Browns lost two of their "key" (and I use the word lightly) receivers going into last season in Stallworth and Winslow. And I was never a fan of Edwards. But look at what they went into the season with as far as the receiving corp was concerned? I knew they were in for a rough ride. I liked the TE Watson acquisition. But they need some receivers up in Cleveland.

Former GM Savage deserved to get fired. And the owner can share in some of the blame to. But I like the Holmgren hiring. He seems to have a plan, is shaking things up, and I like what he is doing so far.

Will be interesting to see who they draft with their 11 picks. And again, I like that Holmgren has the control/say in those picks. Brown fans have reason for optimism.

[The Operator]

Wallace is 29, 1 year younger than Palmer. He has completed 333 passes for 3547 yards (59.5 %) in his career. His career QB rating is 83.1.

In 2009, Palmer's worst EVER full season statistically, he completed 282 passes (at a 60.5% clip) for 3094 yards and 21 TDs. His QB rating was 83.6.


So Wallace is one year younger than Palmer and his entire career combined adds up to what is without question Carson Palmer's worst ever statistical full season. If this is the guy Cleveland is excited about, then that excites me as a Bengals fan.

[Kingspoint]

Wallace is 29, 1 year younger than Palmer. He has completed 333 passes for 3547 yards (59.5 %) in his career. His career QB rating is 83.1.

In 2009, Palmer's worst EVER full season statistically, he completed 282 passes (at a 60.5% clip) for 3094 yards and 21 TDs. His QB rating was 83.6.


So Wallace is one year younger than Palmer and his entire career combined adds up to what is without question Carson Palmer's worst ever statistical full season. If this is the guy Cleveland is excited about, then that excites me as a Bengals fan.

Wallace was brought in to be a good stopgap or backup while they search for a franchise Quarterback. Delhomme offers quality depth as a backup to Wallace or starter if Wallace gets injured. Neither will be the starter in 2012. That Quarterback will be drafted this year.

Cleveland has an excellent Offensive Line, an excellent run stuffer in Shaun Rogers, matched with quality depth at Linebacker so the team could run a 3-4 Defense. I agree with most people that the Browns will draft S Eric Berry with their first pick if the Seahawks pass on him. I see the Seahawks grabbing QB Jimmy Claussen if he's there. If Claussen is gone, then the Seahawks probably grab OT Brian Bulaga. LT Brian Bulaga is rising up the rankings very fast and could make it all the way to Seattle at #6 if they rank him that highly, or at least in their Top-10. The Browns already have a Franchise Left Tackle without a Franchise Quarterback. They can tell you which is more important. And, because of that, they'll take QB Jimmy Clausen over OT Brian Bulaga, but if Claussen is gone, it's looking like OT Brian Bulaga will be the guy the Seahawks take to solidify their Offensive Line leaving S Eric Berry for the Browns. If Claussen and Bulaga are both gone (meaning DT Gerald McCoy falls down to Seattle, I think the Seahawks pass on McCoy as they don't have a need for a DT, where their Safeties are absolutely atrocious) the Seahawks still take S Eric Berry. So, Cleveland would then have to choose between DT Gerald McCoy and the rest....and there's a big drop off from McCoy and "the rest". The Browns won't be able to pass on McCoy. They've already had feelers out with the rest of the league during Free Agency for Shaun Rogers, so they've got a good idea on who they can trade with and what they'll get. They'll take McCoy if he's there and then trade Rogers for something else.

Their backfield is set with Jerome Harrison, James Davis, Chris Jennings, Lawrence Vickers and Peyton Hillis. Massaquoi was a solid draft last season. Ben Watson was a solid pickup, especially for Seneca Wallace. They also have another Tight End (Evan Moore) who was picked up off of waivers last season and came on strong at the end of the season as a Receiver. There's a lot of good pieces in place. Robert Royal is a good blocking Tight End.

With the Browns' early 2nd round pick, I'd think they'd take either a Defensive End or a Quarterback, and then they've got 4 picks from the early 3rd round to the early part of the 4th Round to go after a Wide Receiver, Cornerback, Right Guard, and Quarterback/Defensive End (whichever they didn't get in the 2nd Round).

Massaquoi and Josh Cribbs should be a decent 1-2 WR group while they add to it another with a 2nd Day (Friday) pick. Chansi Stuckey has looked good in pre-season games, but it hasn't translated to regular season games. Most Redzoners are pretty familiar with 2nd year player Brian Robiskie, and it will be curious to see the 2nd year growth from both Robiskie and Massaquoi.

The 2nd Round pick this year is going to be a huge pick for the Browns.

The most likely players to be taken with the #2 pick will be from this group:

Florida's DE Carlos Dunlap
TCU's DE/OLB Jerry Hughes
Clemson's DE/OLB Ricky Sapp
Utah's DE/OLB Koa Misi
Texas QB Colt McCoy

[Kingspoint]

The Seahawks just traded away DE/OLB Daryl Tapp for a 4th Round pick. It's looking more and more that the Seahawks could be using their 2nd Round pick on a Defensive End.

[The Operator]

Why are the Browns paying Delhomme $7M if they expect him to be nothing more than a serviceable backup? That's a good amount of scratch for a guy who, if Wallace starts, should be riding the pine.

[Scrap Irony]

Delhomme will start the season as the Browns' QB. (Holmgren and Mangini as much as said that when they signed him, Kingsport's insistence aside.) The question is whether Delhomme has enough left in the tank to keep the qb spot away from a good back-up (but barely serviceable starter) Wallace.

And, as for draft picks, I expect Holmgren to go WR/TE heavy, as this draft has some solid talent in those areas. It wouldn't suprise me to see Holmgren ignore the signal caller completely in the draft this year, grab his go-to, #2, and possession receivers (the Browns need all three, really), then, knowing he's going to draft fairly high again next season, pick a qb then.

Or he could grab a top WR, find another in FA, and go DL and LB heavy, with a late-round qb as emergency starter.

(Of course, I have to admit, I HATE drafting late-round quarterbacks. So few make it out of the first round, less out of the second and so on. Why not fill holes-- and there are many in Cleveland-- rather than playing the lottery on a possible qb fit years down the road?)

[Kingspoint]

Why are the Browns paying Delhomme $7M if they expect him to be nothing more than a serviceable backup? That's a good amount of scratch for a guy who, if Wallace starts, should be riding the pine.

Mike Holmgren's record as a G.M. sucked in Seattle. Nothing surprises me when it comes to something he might do.

It's definitely a head-scratcher that he gave $7M to a guy who's very likely to lose the job in August to someone else. It would indicate that it's Delhomme's job to lose. Lose it though, he will.

[Kingspoint]

And, don't forget two other good signings, LB Scott Fujita and RT Tony Pashos. Fujita, if he can stay healthy, is a beast of a player and will instantly be the leader of the Defense in Cleveland. Pashos takes the place of Ryan Tucker and others they used there last season. Pashos is coming off an injury himself but appears healthy now and should provide a great anchor on the Right Side of the line.

[GAC]

If this is the guy Cleveland is excited about, then that excites me as a Bengals fan.

Nowhere has it been said, by Brown fans or their management, that they were excited about Seneca, as if he, or even Delhomme, are the QBs of the future. C'mon, lets be realistic here. Something had to be done with Anderson and Quinn. They weren't making it and it was no surprise they terminated Anderson's contract just days before he was due a roster bonus of $2 million and a $7.45 million dollar salary in 2010.

Holmgren stated.... "The quarterback position has been probably the one area we've spent the most time on as a group since I've been here," Holmgren said. "We all came to the conclusion that we couldn't go into the season the same way we went into last season."

There are some good "pieces", including depth, in Cleveland, but that's not denying the fact that there are also some holes that need to be addressed and filled in numerous areas. And QB is still one of them.

But again - I'm far more optimistic that a guy like Holmgren is making those decisions now. They'll make their biggest impact with the 12 picks in the draft.

[Kingspoint]

Nowhere has it been said, by Brown fans or their management, that they were excited about Seneca, as if he, or even Delhomme, are the QBs of the future. C'mon, lets be realistic here. Something had to be done with Anderson and Quinn. They weren't making it and it was no surprise they terminated Anderson's contract just days before he was due a roster bonus of $2 million and a $7.45 million dollar salary in 2010.

Holmgren stated.... "The quarterback position has been probably the one area we've spent the most time on as a group since I've been here," Holmgren said. "We all came to the conclusion that we couldn't go into the season the same way we went into last season."

There are some good "pieces" in Cleveland, but that's not denying the fact that there are also some holes that need to be addressed and filled in numerous areas. And QB is still one of them.

But again - I'm far more optimistic that a guy like Holmgren is making those decisions now. They'll make their biggest impact with the 12 picks in the draft.

Agree completely. Holmgren, with experience as a G.M. behind him, and no duties as a Head Coach, probably has a great chance to be a decent G.M. now in the NFL. He's always said that he's "a teacher". Well, he's going to have to forget about being a teacher as those skills have nothing to do with being a G.M. where it's all about delegating and making decisions. No more hands on grunt work. On the looks of things, so far so good. He's got a rock-solid Offensive Line that was leaking on the right side. Ignoring the pundits and fans who wanted Mangini gone and sticking with a guy who was successful in New York as the Jets' Coach his first season while providing some stability in Cleveland. Not making the Head Coach change was a great decision. Obtaining a ton of draft picks is also another, though I was surprised to see Kamerion Wimbley go. They've got great depth at Linebacker, though, and they could afford to do that. Linebacker is also the easiest position to replace in the draft.

If you're looking to improve a Secondary, there's no better way than to get a handful of 3rd and 4th Round picks as there are always very capable secondary players in those rounds as well as Wide Receivers and Linebackers and Guards. And, this year, there are Quarterbacks in the 3rd Round who have a great ability to be starters in the NFL.

[Scrap Irony]

And, this year, there are Quarterbacks in the 3rd Round who have a great ability to be starters in the NFL.

I disagree completely. This is a poor year for qb's in general. To further water it down by dropping into the third round for a possible starter?

Your chances of hitting big money on the lottery are better, IMO.

[bucksfan2]

Holmgren stated.... "The quarterback position has been probably the one area we've spent the most time on as a group since I've been here," Holmgren said. "We all came to the conclusion that we couldn't go into the season the same way we went into last season."

There are some good "pieces", including depth, in Cleveland, but that's not denying the fact that there are also some holes that need to be addressed and filled in numerous areas. And QB is still one of them.

But again - I'm far more optimistic that a guy like Holmgren is making those decisions now. They'll make their biggest impact with the 12 picks in the draft.

The bolded part is typical Mangini. The QB battle made the Browns relevant late into camp and into the season. I remember seeing daily SC updates on the status of the Browns QB situation. IMO Mangini handled that about as poorly as possible and it didn't make it even better than Winslow was traded away prior to the season and Edwards was traded to the Jets for some of Mangini's guys who were poor.

I am interested to see how Holmgren is as a GM. He was bad in that capacity with the Seahawks. When he removed himself from GM duties he became a successful coach. I think his worst move was keeping Mangini on board. I think he is a toxic coach, especially in the locker room.

I heard on the radio the other day how the Browns brought in the only QB worse than the Quinn/Anderson fiasco last season. Wallace really shouldn't do anything to excite Browns fans. I thought Quinn got shafted a little bit. Guy got less than a full season of starts. Granted his Browns career was filled with injuries and QB turmoil, I would at least have given him a shot this season.

It is still to be seen what the Browns do in the draft. They need a QB but I don't see them making a run at Bradford and don't know if they will pick another highly touted ND QB with some issues.

[Kingspoint]

Jake Delhomme says he "was not guaranteed anything" by the Browns upon signing a two-year deal with the club over the weekend.

Well, except $7 million in the first year. "I want to make that perfectly clear," he said. "I was guaranteed the chance to compete. Very simple. There were no guarantees whatsoever." President Mike Holmgren, however, has made it even more clear (with the $7M) that he doesn't want an in-camp QB competition. Because of his contract, Delhomme looks to have the upper hand on Seneca Wallace.

And, that "bold" part you were talking about bucksfan2, "We all came to the conclusion that we couldn't go into the season the same way we went into last season." is also a statement saying that Seneca Wallace isn't going to be given a chance to compete for the starting job and that, in fact, the Quarterback job is being "handed" to Delhomme.

And, Derek Anderson ended up signing with Arizona, the best place for him. Browns fans will see that Anderson's low completion percentages and YPA the last two seasons were the result of lousy Receivers and Coaching and not because of Derek Anderson. Instead of a 2-3 TD-to-Int ratio and completion percentages of 47.9 of his passes, and 5.38 yards per attempt, Anderson in Arizona will reverse those numbers and have at least a 3-2 TD-to-Int ration, complete at least 55% of his passes with at least 7.0 yards per attempt his first 3 seasons in Arizona.

[Kingspoint]

I disagree completely. This is a poor year for qb's in general. To further water it down by dropping into the third round for a possible starter?

Your chances of hitting big money on the lottery are better, IMO.

QB Tim Hiller, Western Michigan
QB Zac Robinson, Oklahoma State
QB Dan LeFevour, Central Michigan
QB Jevan Snead, Ole Miss
QB Tim Tebow, Florida
QB Colt McCoy, Texas

All of those are likely starters in the NFL, and none of them will be taken in the First Round.

You can also toss in as possible starters:

QB Colin Kaepernick, Nevada
QB Case Keenum, Houston
QB Jarrett Brown, West Virginia

All of them have at worst Jake Delhomme/Seneca Wallace ceilings, and Holmgren is an expert at grooming Quarterbacks. I'm sure if he picks one of these in the 3rd, 4th, or 5th Round, the chances that he'll outproduce Derek Anderson, Brady Quinn, Seneca Wallace, and Jake Delhomme are pretty good.

When it comes to drafting a quarterback who's going to lead a team to a Superbowl, where he gets drafted is anybody's guess. There's so much one doesn't know about the person until they get them in camp, and even then, a whole organization can screw that up, too (see Brett Favre).

[GIDP]

QB Tim Hiller, Western Michigan
QB Zac Robinson, Oklahoma State
QB Dan LeFevour, Central Michigan
QB Jevan Snead, Ole Miss
QB Tim Tebow, Florida
QB Colt McCoy, Texas

All of those are likely starters in the NFL, and none of them will be taken in the First Round.

You can also toss in as possible starters:

QB Colin Kaepernick, Nevada
QB Case Keenum, Houston
QB Jarrett Brown, West Virginia

All of them have at worst Jake Delhomme/Seneca Wallace ceilings, and Holmgren is an expert at grooming Quarterbacks. I'm sure if he picks one of these in the 3rd, 4th, or 5th Round, the chances that he'll outproduce Derek Anderson, Brady Quinn, Seneca Wallace, and Jake Delhomme are pretty good.

When it comes to drafting a quarterback who's going to lead a team to a Superbowl, where he gets drafted is anybody's guess. There's so much one doesn't know about the person until they get them in camp, and even then, a whole organization can screw that up, too (see Brett Favre).

Likely starters in the NFL arent taken in the 3rd round of NFL drafts.

[Kingspoint]

Likely starters in the NFL arent taken in the 3rd round of NFL drafts.

They not only are taken in the 3rd round, but they're taken in every round, and sometimes are undrafted.

[TC81190]

Likely starters in the NFL arent taken in the 3rd round of NFL drafts.
likely starters also don't include Tim Tebow.

[GIDP]

They not only are taken in the 3rd round, but they're taken in every round, and sometimes are undrafted.

Look at the NFL QBs last year. You tell me the odds that you are going to find a starting QB outside the 1st or 2nd rounds. It doesnt happen often. I might be mistaken but maybe 5 NFL starting QBs last year were not taken in the 1st round. If you go looking for a starting QB by saying we can get him in these later rounds most of the time you are going to be swinging and missing.

[Kingspoint]

The best pick for Cleveland would be QB Dan LeFevour, Central Michigan.

He'll be available at the end of the 3rd Round and he's DEFINITELY going to become a starter in the NFL.

I wouldn't be surprised at all if Holmgren drafts LeFevour. He knows Quarterbacks.

[Kingspoint]

Look at the NFL QBs last year. You tell me the odds that you are going to find a starting QB outside the 1st or 2nd rounds. It doesnt happen often. I might be mistaken but maybe 5 NFL starting QBs last year were not taken in the 1st round. If you go looking for a starting QB by saying we can get him in these later rounds most of the time you are going to be swinging and missing.

I don't have time to go through the list right now, but I'll go through it later. I'm pretty sure that at least a dozen starters (37%) were drafted in the 3rd Round or later. That's a pretty high number.

[BRM]

I don't have time to go through the list right now, but I'll go through it later. I'm pretty sure that at least a dozen starters (37%) were drafted in the 3rd Round or later. That's a pretty high number.

I believe that's probably pretty close. I can think of 7 or 8 off the top of my head. Brady, Bulger, Schaub, Hasselback, Romo, Delhomme, Cassell. I'm pretty sure Kyle Orton and David Garrard were late round picks as well.

[GIDP]

I don't have time to go through the list right now, but I'll go through it later. I'm pretty sure that at least a dozen starters (37%) were drafted in the 3rd Round or later. That's a pretty high number.

You are saying 12 of the 32 NFL teams had starting QBs drafted later than the 3rd round?

[GIDP]

There is 12 if you count every QB to have over 200 passing attempts last year.

[bucksfan2]

I believe that's probably pretty close. I can think of 7 or 8 off the top of my head. Brady, Bulger, Schaub, Hasselback, Romo, Delhomme, Cassell. I'm pretty sure Kyle Orton and David Garrard were late round picks as well.

If your talking starters as of last season, starting more that spot starts, I think you can add Anderson, Fitzpatrick, Gradkowski, and Shaun Hill. Not world beaters by any stretch of the imagination but 3 started over former 1st round picks (Quinn, Edwards, Russell, and Smith).

[Hoosier Red]

QB Tim Hiller, Western Michigan
QB Zac Robinson, Oklahoma State
QB Dan LeFevour, Central Michigan
QB Jevan Snead, Ole Miss
QB Tim Tebow, Florida
QB Colt McCoy, Texas

All of those are likely starters in the NFL, and none of them will be taken in the First Round.

You can also toss in as possible starters:

QB Colin Kaepernick, Nevada
QB Case Keenum, Houston
QB Jarrett Brown, West Virginia

All of them have at worst Jake Delhomme/Seneca Wallace ceilings, and Holmgren is an expert at grooming Quarterbacks. I'm sure if he picks one of these in the 3rd, 4th, or 5th Round, the chances that he'll outproduce Derek Anderson, Brady Quinn, Seneca Wallace, and Jake Delhomme are pretty good.

When it comes to drafting a quarterback who's going to lead a team to a Superbowl, where he gets drafted is anybody's guess. There's so much one doesn't know about the person until they get them in camp, and even then, a whole organization can screw that up, too (see Brett Favre).

You're talking about two different things when you say "likely" starters. Is it likely that one of those quarterbacks will develop into a starting QB in the NFL? Sure.
Is it likely that all of those quarterbacks will be in the NFL? Not a chance.

If 12 QB's last year who threw more than 200 times were drafted after the 2nd round, that means one maybe two quarterback per draft will be good enough to be a starting quarterback(and not even an above average quarterback, who picks somebody with the hopes they'll be 32nd in the league passing.)

[JaxRed]

Garrard was 4th round

[Scrap Irony]

QB Tim Hiller, Western Michigan
QB Zac Robinson, Oklahoma State
QB Dan LeFevour, Central Michigan
QB Jevan Snead, Ole Miss
QB Tim Tebow, Florida
QB Colt McCoy, Texas

All of those are likely starters in the NFL, and none of them will be taken in the First Round.

If you mean a starter as in a person who starts one game in the NFL, then perhaps half of your picks above might make one start. If you mean a qb who is a perennial starter on an NFL team, I'd say you're smoking something. There's only one Tom Brady.

Sure, you can mention the also-rans that have been undervalued, but, by and large, late-round qb picks have a horrid success rate, especially with their original teams.

Better to wait out the year and grab quality depth at other positions, while also signing a placeholder until you can move up to the upper portion of a later draft and pick a guy you really believe in.

I think that's what Holmgren has planned, actually. Unless Bradford drops (and he shouldn't), the Browns are going to go with the devil they know and try and fill from the strongest position in the draft-- wide receiver.

(Of course, Homgren could just as easily decide to sign a free agent WR or two and take some defensive talent, figuring it may be undervalued. What do I really know?)

[GIDP]

You're talking about two different things when you say "likely" starters. Is it likely that one of those quarterbacks will develop into a starting QB in the NFL? Sure.
Is it likely that all of those quarterbacks will be in the NFL? Not a chance.

If 12 QB's last year who threw more than 200 times were drafted after the 2nd round, that means one maybe two quarterback per draft will be good enough to be a starting quarterback(and not even an above average quarterback, who picks somebody with the hopes they'll be 32nd in the league passing.)

12 that were drafter 3rd round or later.

Out of the 23 that started 14 games or more there was 8.

[GIDP]

Basically you either get a once in a lifetime lucky pick like a Tom Brady or Kurt Warner or you draft in the 1st round.

[Caveat Emperor]

You are saying 12 of the 32 NFL teams had starting QBs drafted later than the 3rd round?

Actually, yeah:

Matt Schaub HOU (3rd Round)
Tony Romo DAL (Undrafted)
Tom Brady NE (6th Round)
Kyle Orton DEN (4th Round)
Kurt Warner ARI (Undrafted)
David Garrard JAX (4th Round)
Matt Hasselbeck SEA (6th Round)
Matt Cassel KC (7th Round)
Jake Delhomme CAR (Undrafted)
Marc Bulger STL (6th Round)
Bruce Gradkowski OAK (6th Round)
Ryan Fitzpatrick BUF (7th Round)


Basically you either get a once in a lifetime lucky pick like a Tom Brady or Kurt Warner or you draft in the 1st round.

And if you draft in the 1st round, you still have a fair chance of striking out -- see Akili Smith, Cade McNown, Patrick Ramsey, Joey Harrington, J.P. Losman, Rex Grossman, Jason Campbell, etc.

[GIDP]

Actually, yeah:

Matt Schaub HOU (3rd Round)
Tony Romo DAL (Undrafted)
Tom Brady NE (6th Round)
Kyle Orton DEN (4th Round)
Kurt Warner ARI (Undrafted)
David Garrard JAX (4th Round)
Matt Hasselbeck SEA (6th Round)
Matt Cassel KC (7th Round)
Jake Delhomme CAR (Undrafted)
Marc Bulger STL (6th Round)
Bruce Gradkowski OAK (6th Round)
Ryan Fitzpatrick BUF (7th Round)



And if you draft in the 1st round, you still have a fair chance of striking out -- see Akili Smith, Cade McNown, Patrick Ramsey, Joey Harrington, J.P. Losman, Rex Grossman, Jason Campbell, etc.

A lot of those guys arent NFL starters. They only played because they happend to be the least terrible on their team. Every team has to play a QB but it doesnt make all of them them worthy of being one.

Basically most of those teams are looking for a QB in this years draft or most likely should be.

If you want to solve your QB issues which way would you go?

[TRF]

Was Kurt Warner even drafted? I can't remember.

nevermind, i should read before i post.

[bucksfan2]

A lot of those guys arent NFL starters. They only played because they happend to be the least terrible on their team. Every team has to play a QB but it doesnt make all of them them worthy of being one.

Basically most of those teams are looking for a QB in this years draft or most likely should be.

If you want to solve your QB issues which way would you go?

With the exception of Gradkowski and Fitzy all others were bonified starters. Orton is the only other fringe guy.

[GIDP]

Cassel was? Delhomme was? Bulger? There is talk of the Rams drafting a QB this year. Delhomme was released, and Cassel was 25th in the league in passer rating last year barely above Fitzy.

[Hoosier Red]

And if you draft in the 1st round, you still have a fair chance of striking out -- see Akili Smith, Cade McNown, Patrick Ramsey, Joey Harrington, J.P. Losman, Rex Grossman, Jason Campbell, etc.

Here's the thing though, there are much higher rates of success for 1st round quarterbacks than there are for later round quarterbacks(they play sooner too on average)

HOWEVER, the cost of a 1st round quarterback is much higher as well, so if you lose, it likely sets the franchise back two years minimum.

Exactly what the balance is between higher prospect of being right, higher prospect of playing sooner, cost to draft is I don't know,
but I do know that if more than two-three guys on Kingspoint's list are 1) drafted in rounds 3-7, and 2) start more than 3-4 games in their career, it will be the greatest late round qb draft in history.

What's likely is one team will get lucky(smart) and pick the next Top 10 QB, one team will draft a guy who sits on the bench for 3-4 years, learns the system and starts maybe 4 years down the road, and every other qb taken will be selling insurance in 5 years.

[Scrap Irony]

What's likely is one team will get lucky(smart) and pick the next Top 10 QB, one team will draft a guy who sits on the bench for 3-4 years, learns the system and starts maybe 4 years down the road, and every other qb taken will be selling insurance in 5 years.



And this is why you only draft the guy you love at the qb position. Because, like it or not, he's who most of your fan base (and much of your team) will identify your success.

[Redsfaithful]

I was kind of worried about the Browns with Holmgren taking over. Not as much now, at least not anytime soon. Looking like a 4-6 win team again in 2010. That franchise ruined Brady Quinn, I don't think he's a bust if he'd gone to a non-dysfunctional team.

Maybe Holmgren gets a decent QB and they become a team to worry about in 2011, but that's easier said than done. They are in a brutal division when it comes to making mistakes, and you're just not going to win in the AFC North with Seneca Wallace or Jake Delhomme at QB. I kind of want to see Delhomme starting, how many INTs would he throw playing Baltimore, Pittsburgh, and Cincinnati twice a year?

[Kingspoint]

You are saying 12 of the 32 NFL teams had starting QBs drafted later than the 3rd round?


No. I say that there were probably about 40 starters last season (started 8 games or more or were meant to start 8 games or more, but injuries took them out), and that maybe 14 of those 40 were drafted AFTER the 2nd Round, I'm guessing...maybe a couple more.

[Kingspoint]

12 that were drafter 3rd round or later.

Out of the 23 that started 14 games or more there was 8.

What a coincidence? 8 out of 23 is 35%. That's pretty close for someone who was just guessing off the top of their head when I said 37%.


For reference when I was asked, I do mean "likely" starters. I intentionally used that word. As was said, it's very much different.

FWIW, if Claussen or Bradford fall to #7, then the Browns jump all over that.

[Kingspoint]

Actually, yeah:

Matt Schaub HOU (3rd Round)
Tony Romo DAL (Undrafted)
Tom Brady NE (6th Round)
Kyle Orton DEN (4th Round)
Kurt Warner ARI (Undrafted)
David Garrard JAX (4th Round)
Matt Hasselbeck SEA (6th Round)
Matt Cassel KC (7th Round)
Jake Delhomme CAR (Undrafted)
Marc Bulger STL (6th Round)
Bruce Gradkowski OAK (6th Round)
Ryan Fitzpatrick BUF (7th Round)



And if you draft in the 1st round, you still have a fair chance of striking out -- see Akili Smith, Cade McNown, Patrick Ramsey, Joey Harrington, J.P. Losman, Rex Grossman, Jason Campbell, etc.

Don't forget JaMarcus Russell and Brady Quinn, and I could go on and on with busted 1st Round picks at QB.

With that list right there of "quality" QB's drafted after the 2nd Round, if you've got your scouts doing their jobs and you have a competent QB's coach, then you should have faith that you can get a QB after the 2nd Round.

Central Michigan's QB has a 50-50 chance of becoming a quality starter, depending on who drafts him. If someone drafts him who lets him spend 3 years to develop his game, then that team will have themselves a starter. If they rush him, they'll end his career before it started.

[Kingspoint]

Also, drafting a 1st Round QB bust gets a G.M. fired.

[GIDP]

32 NFL teams have to have a likely starter. Doesnt mean all 32 QB who start in the NFL should.

[Kingspoint]

32 NFL teams have to have a likely starter. Doesnt mean all 32 QB who start in the NFL should.

Like MLB, the NHL, and the NBA, there's too many teams and not enough talent.

[Kingspoint]

I do like Cleveland's prospects for 2010. Wouldn't be surprised if they end up winning as many games as Pittsburgh (if Big Ben gets suspended).

[GIDP]

Like MLB, the NHL, and the NBA, there's too many teams and not enough talent.

Saying things like 12 QBs from later rounds start in the NFL is justification for the Browns to draft all these 3rd+ round guys is silly. You say there isnt enough talent but want to champion that late round QBs are easy to find.

[Slyder]

I believe that's probably pretty close. I can think of 7 or 8 off the top of my head. Brady, Bulger, Schaub, Hasselback, Romo, Delhomme, Cassell. I'm pretty sure Kyle Orton and David Garrard were late round picks as well.

Bruce Gradkowski (I think he was 6th round by Tampa) if you want to include him. Also drafting the WRONG QB in Rd 1 like Oakland did, like SD did (Leaf), like Cleveland did (Couch and Quinn), like Houston did (Carr) can set you back much worse than taking a guy in the middle/late rounds and rolling the dice.

[GIDP]

Bruce Gradkowski (I think he was 6th round by Tampa) if you want to include him. Also drafting the WRONG QB in Rd 1 like Oakland did, like SD did (Leaf), like Cleveland did (Couch and Quinn), like Houston did (Carr) can set you back much worse than taking a guy in the middle/late rounds and rolling the dice.

Not if you keep trying to draft the guys in the 3rd round+ and hope that one some day sticks enough that he isnt viewed as one of the bad NFL QBs.

Basically only 3 or 4 in last years NFL fit that category and they span from the 90s to today as a timeline.

[Slyder]

Oh whats his name... I seem to remember some guy who played college ball in D2 for some school in Deleware...

Made a pretty good career out for himself, probably would have had more sooner if not for some musical duo in KC (although I am always thankful for that) and some hot air ESPN guy (Salisbury). Won him an MVP, made a few pro bowls. He was drafted in the 4th round.

His name? Oh ya Rich Gannon.

A name from Raider Lore for those who dont want to give up on Brady Quinn... Jim Plunkett

[Slyder]

Not if you keep trying to draft the guys in the 3rd round+ and hope that one some day sticks enough that he isnt viewed as one of the bad NFL QBs.

Basically only 3 or 4 in last years NFL fit that category and they span from the 90s to today as a timeline.

I'd argue Oakland has better luck getting off the scrap heap than they do drafting in the First round.

First Round Pick QB:
JaLardman Russell
Todd Marijuanavich I mean Marinovich
Marc Wilson

Vs

Free Agents/Scrap Heap:
Rich Gannon
Jeff Hostetler
Bruce Gradkowski
Jim Plunkett
Darryl Lamonica
Jeff George (had one of his best seasons in Oakland QB rating of ~91.6 in 97)

(I do not consider Jay Schroeder in this group because we actually traded a great tackle for him sadly)

[Kingspoint]

Saying things like 12 QBs from later rounds start in the NFL is justification for the Browns to draft all these 3rd+ round guys is silly. You say there isnt enough talent but want to champion that late round QBs are easy to find.

They aren't easy to find. 1st Round Quarterbacks aren't easy to find. The Browns certainly know that. Why waste a good 1st Round pick on a Quarterback that only has a 50% chance of being any good when you can use the 1st Round pick on another position where your odds of getting a Pro Bowl player are much, much better?

It's a crapshoot when it comes to Quarterbacks, so why not throw the dice in the 3rd Round, where if you miss, you don't lose as much. A franchise that has a lot of holes can't afford to screw up a 1st round and early 2nd round pick.

[GAC]

The bolded part is typical Mangini.

But it was Holmgren who said it though. But there is some truth to the remainder of what you said, concerning Mangini and the QB situation. I wasn't high on either one of the Brown QBs to begin with. Thought the re-signing of Anderson, and giving him that ridiculous contract, even after the successful season he had, was pure stupidity. They should have sold high IMO. I also didn't jump for joy when they drafted Quinn. I personally thought he was somewhat of an over-rated college QB.

But even having said that, all the blame can't be placed solely on them. You can't go into the season with a receiving corp that was basically decimated, a running game that had question marks, injuries early on to key players, and hope for the best. You're asking for trouble.

Their win total was one more then I projected. ;)

I will say this though, and I do give Mangini credit for that - the team seemed to keep fighting, believed in themselves, and didn't give up. And I saw that in Dec., regardless of the opponent.

I've been maintaining the same "wait and see" attitude with the Browns as I have been with the Reds.

I guess I just need to pick better teams to root for. :mooner:

[GAC]

They aren't easy to find. 1st Round Quarterbacks aren't easy to find. The Browns certainly know that. Why waste a good 1st Round pick on a Quarterback that only has a 50% chance of being any good when you can use the 1st Round pick on another position where your odds of getting a Pro Bowl player are much, much better?

It's a crapshoot when it comes to Quarterbacks, so why not throw the dice in the 3rd Round, where if you miss, you don't lose as much. A franchise that has a lot of holes can't afford to screw up a 1st round and early 2nd round pick.

BINGO!

[Hoosier Red]

They aren't easy to find. 1st Round Quarterbacks aren't easy to find. The Browns certainly know that. Why waste a good 1st Round pick on a Quarterback that only has a 50% chance of being any good when you can use the 1st Round pick on another position where your odds of getting a Pro Bowl player are much, much better?

It's a crapshoot when it comes to Quarterbacks, so why not throw the dice in the 3rd Round, where if you miss, you don't lose as much. A franchise that has a lot of holes can't afford to screw up a 1st round and early 2nd round pick.

Now this I agree with. I was just taking issue with your list of players all turning out to be likely starters. As I said, someone from that list will be a starter so it makes sense to draft one or two of them.

I think the only times you draft a first round quarterback are when a) you are going to lose so you don't mind the quarterback starting right away,(Manning) b) you're going to lose so you don't mind the quarterback sitting for one season or two and developing behind a veteran (Palmer) or c) You are so stacked at talent everywhere else, you don't mind taking a quarterback and letting him develop. (rare)

In general, I think the first round and early second round, you have to get guys who are able to step in and start right away.

[bucksfan2]

But it was Holmgren who said it though. But there is some truth to the remainder of what you said, concerning Mangini and the QB situation. I wasn't high on either one of the Brown QBs to begin with. Thought the re-signing of Anderson, and giving him that ridiculous contract, even after the successful season he had, was pure stupidity. They should have sold high IMO. I also didn't jump for joy when they drafted Quinn. I personally thought he was somewhat of an over-rated college QB.

You overpay for average quarterbacks. Look at the contract Eli got. Eli is probably falls into the 10-15 range but is being paid like a top 3 QB. I don't exactly think the contract given to Anderson was that awful of a contract. I think the most unfortunate thing about Anderson's best season was the timing. It happened right after the Browns drafted Quinn and traded up to get him. And then the Browns screwed around with both QB's for the better half of 2+ years.


But even having said that, all the blame can't be placed solely on them. You can't go into the season with a receiving corp that was basically decimated, a running game that had question marks, injuries early on to key players, and hope for the best. You're asking for trouble.

It is really the Belichick way of coaching. You get rid of bad apples and bring in players who buy into the system. But the problem with all of the Belichick disciples is they didn't build the foundation first. Mangini traded away his two pro bowl skill position players last year. He left the offense void of skill players and their best player can't play QB, WR, or RB and is forced to play either return kicks or play in a wildcat formation.

You don't win in the NFL without talent. The Edwards trade was awful. Mangini basically gave away Edwards for some of his favorite Jets role players.


I will say this though, and I do give Mangini credit for that - the team seemed to keep fighting, believed in themselves, and didn't give up. And I saw that in Dec., regardless of the opponent.

I've been maintaining the same "wait and see" attitude with the Browns as I have been with the Reds.

I guess I just need to pick better teams to root for. :mooner:

IMO I think Mangini is one of the worst coaches in the league. Its his way or the high way, and he really has never been successful in his career. Yea I know his first season with the Jets was good, but IMO that was an outlier kid of season.

I think the only thing the Browns have going for them is their OL. They have Thomas and Steinbach who are very good and have a 1st round C in Mack. I think in a talent standpoint the Browns are lacking. They may all buy into Mangini's system, but you need talent to compete in the NFL.

[goreds2]

I do like Cleveland's prospects for 2010. Wouldn't be surprised if they end up winning as many games as Pittsburgh (if Big Ben gets suspended).


http://reason.com/assets/mc/mwelch/2009_11/clinton_laughing.jpg

[Kingspoint]

http://reason.com/assets/mc/mwelch/2009_11/clinton_laughing.jpg

You missed, "If Big Ben gets suspended".

[GAC]

IMO I think Mangini is one of the worst coaches in the league. Its his way or the high way, and he really has never been successful in his career. Yea I know his first season with the Jets was good, but IMO that was an outlier kid of season.

Some of that may be true. I'm kinda on the fence when it comes to Mangini. But enter Mike Holmgren. While Mangini is still growing into his role, and I had no problem with the Brown's retaining him for next year, because you have to give any new coach a chance, last year showed the flaws in his “I can do everything” approach that Holmgren’s presence most certainly should cure.

If not, then Mangini will be gone because it's Mike's show now.

As for the QB position....

Jake Delhomme and Seneca Wallace are simply "minding the store" until Holmgren develops a young quarterback from this year's draft. Drafting seventh, Holmgren would have to trade up to get Sam Bradford or Jimmy Clausen. Bradford probably will go No. 1, so the Browns would have to target the Tampa Bay Buccaneers' pick at No. 3 to jump ahead of the Redskins for Clausen. If that fails, the Browns will have to look at QBs like Colt McCoy, Dan LeFevour in the second or third rounds. And then there is still Tebow - The Browns are one of five teams for which Florida quarterback Tim Tebow will conduct individual workouts ....http://brownschat.clevelandbrowns.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/647104813/m/155108823

And I've read some talk that a "sleeper" QB could be Jevon Snead, the QB for Ole Miss. Personally, I like Tony Pike. ;)

So there are some options available at the QB position for Holmgren.

Going into the draft, the Browns need so much help in their secondary, and there is so much talent in that area available in the draft, the Browns have to go defense in the first round. Maybe guys like....

Kareem Jackson - Cornerback, Alabama.
Darell Stucky, Safety, Kansas

Shaun Rogers is expected to remain with the Browns in 2010, according to a report by the Cleveland Plain-Dealer. So drafting a DE to complement Rogers would be a big boost for the Brown's defense. Jason Pierre-Paul or Derrick Morgan?


I think in a talent standpoint the Browns are lacking. They may all buy into Mangini's system, but you need talent to compete in the NFL.

No doubt one needs talent to compete in the NFL. And while the Browns definitely have multiple needs and weaknesses to fill, they also have some talent too. They just need to add to, or complement, what they do have. Their O-line is gonna be good IMO. And they can fill their needs on the other side of the ball pretty handily in the first two rounds.

It's not like they are going to "right this ship" and correct everything going into next season. But they can take some really huge steps, push us in the right direction, going into next year with this draft IMO.

And if Mangini has "difficulties" with Holmgren, then I think we know who is going to win that battle by the end of next season. ;)

[Kingspoint]

I agree with you GAC, that if the Browns want Claussen, they'll have to make a trade with the Bucs. There's been reports from about 10 clubs though now (could be intentional rumors flying around trying to force his stock to drop) that Claussen is coming off as arrogant and entitled (aka Jay Cutler, Ryan Leaf). That said, I think he's worth risking a High #1 and their 2nd Round to move up to get him. The trade can't be made though until everyone finds out who the RAMS take with #1.

[BoydsOfSummer]

Tom Heckert is the GM. Holmgren is team President. I keep seeing Holmgren referred to as the GM.

[Kingspoint]

From Rotoworld w/ Rotoworld comments:

Browns president Mike Holmgren admitted that he isn't high on Notre Dame QB Jimmy Clausen.

"You know how you have a type of player that you like? It's not scientific. People like him a lot. He'll go high," Holmgren said. "But it would be hard for me [to take him]." Holmgren reiterated that he will take a quarterback in the draft, but it probably won't be until late.

[BoydsOfSummer]

Great--that means he likes him. I don't.

[Kingspoint]

From Rotoworld via mlive.com w/ Rotoworld comments:

Coach Eric Mangini said Tuesday that the Browns have not ruled out trading up to the Lions' spot at No. 2 overall.

Mangini also revealed that the Kam Wimbley trade was done to create an opportunity for another trade with the extra third-round pick. Moving up to No. 2 would enable the Browns to draft Jimmy Clausen, though president Mike Holmgren conceded that the Notre Dame QB is "a big debate" in the Browns draft room right now. Colt McCoy is another option, possibly in the second round.