Why wasn't Brandon pulled?

[brm7675]

I was screaming at my TV set last night at our "manager' when he again showed he has no ability to manage a team. You could see Phillips was hurting and needed to be pulled. Yet he 'listens" to Phillips and lets him play? Why are we paying this man to manage if he isn't going to? There is no way that he or Phillips could know what the true issue was. Also why carry replacement players if you are not going to use them? Dusty has a history or ruining pitchers, now it looks like he might be building a resume at hurting position players also.:thumbdown

[GIDP]

Dusty is a big time players manager. Plus there is another factor in there that is to taboo to discuss.

[vottofan4life]

If he isnt playing today could Miguel Cairo be getting some more starts?

[brm7675]

Dusty is a big time something (insert your own view) but I personally would not use the word manager. The issue here our manager refuses to manage and take control of this team. Winning teams don't have that type of leadership.


Dusty is a big time players manager. Plus there is another factor in there that is to taboo to discuss.

[Hanover]

If Brandon says he is OK, you leave him in. Unless you have seen something that makes you think he can't do the job.

People pick on Dusty for the dumbest things.

[Quatitos]

If I were dusty I would have done the same thing if Phillips thinks he is fine. From what I've seen of Phillips, he knows when he can play hurt and when he can't, and is able to not hurt himself more severely while doing so.

I did not watch the game last night but caught the inning where he got hurt on the radio, and they seemed to think it was a cramp based on how Phillips was acting. If it was a cramp, I don't see why you would you would pull someone as good as Brandon. Just take the trainer out and let him stretch it out a bit. I was kind of surprised that it took them a whole batter to realize that he was hurting, and wish that would have been a little faster recognizing it.

[brm7675]

A) What the player thinks should not matter, very few players will say 'take me out" that is why we employ managers
B) Did you see how he struggled to get to that next ground ball?
C) It was the top of the 8th with a 7 run lead, why keep him in?
D) No Dusty gets 'picked" on because he is an.... who should not be in charge of any pro baseball team.


If Brandon says he is OK, you leave him in. Unless you have seen something that makes you think he can't do the job.

People pick on Dusty for the dumbest things.

[The Voice of IH]

Who would have replaced Phillips, Sutton maybe?

[Caveman Techie]

A) What the player thinks should not matter, very few players will say 'take me out" that is why we employ managers
B) Did you see how he struggled to get to that next ground ball?
C) It was the top of the 8th with a 7 run lead, why keep him in?
D) No Dusty gets 'picked" on because he is an.... who should not be in charge of any pro baseball team.

A) Not true, if the player says he is ok, you have him jog a little and test it out. If he still looks ok. You believe him.

B) That next ground ball was while he was still having the cramp, I fault Dusty and the other coaches for not calling "time" before that pitch.

c) It was the top of the 7th, not the 8th. And if he said he was fine after stretching it out then ok.

D)Careful your preconceptions are showing.

I agree I think Brandon should have been pulled after that, but if it was just a cramp it's not the end of the world that he didn't.

[brm7675]

A) managers are there to make decisions, players are always going to want to stay in.

B) he cound't jog, it was still causing him to limp when he went after that grounder

C) Okay the 7th, so what, the game was in hand, why risk further injury for no reason?

D) What is showing is my disdain for what the reds have as a manager.

How do you, Brandon, Dusty or anyone know at that point it was just a cramp? Did I miss them bringing out an MRI or xray machine and checking? Gee what happens the next time say pitcher X says he it's only a twitch in the elbow, nothing important and lets him continue to pitch and then what? We have bench players for a reason, we have "trained" medical staffs for a reason. On top of that the game was in the bag.

QUOTE=redlegz;2098787]A) Not true, if the player says he is ok, you have him jog a little and test it out. If he still looks ok. You believe him.

B) That next ground ball was while he was still having the cramp, I fault Dusty and the other coaches for not calling "time" before that pitch.

c) It was the top of the 7th, not the 8th. And if he said he was fine after stretching it out then ok.

D)Careful your preconceptions are showing.

I agree I think Brandon should have been pulled after that, but if it was just a cramp it's not the end of the world that he didn't.[/QUOTE]

[bengalsown]

we have one of the best W/L records in the major leagues...yeah Dusty needs to go

[DirtyBaker]

I was wondering that too. I understand the logic behind being a players manager and wanting to keep guys (certainly a Brandon Phillips) happy. In that situation it just seemed excessive. A huge lead late in the game and a healthy Drew Sutton on the bench. Even someone who's never watched a baseball game could tell BP looked hurt fielding that groundball off the pitcher's glove the next play.

[Caveman Techie]

How do you, Brandon, Dusty or anyone know at that point it was just a cramp? Did I miss them bringing out an MRI or xray machine and checking? Gee what happens the next time say pitcher X says he it's only a twitch in the elbow, nothing important and lets him continue to pitch and then what? We have bench players for a reason, we have "trained" medical staffs for a reason. On top of that the game was in the bag.


Lol I think I have a pretty good idea what a cramp feels like (get em all the time at night) and I'm pretty sure Brandon does too. No need for the mobile MRI unit.

[brm7675]

Well gee the Cleveland Cavilars who had the best record in teh NBA the past two seasons just fired their head coach, the Broncos fired their Head Coach who had led them to the playoffs and World titles. Heck the Yankees fired Joe Torre and look what he did for them. The Yankees hired Joe Giradi who was fired by the marlins after being named MOTY and having a winning record. Dusty needs to go...


we have one of the best W/L records in the major leagues...yeah Dusty needs to go

[brm7675]

Again i ask you, why take the risk? This wasn't game 7 of the world series? it was a game in late may against the Pirates in teh late innings in a game we were up by 7. It was clearly seeable that what ever the problem was it wasn't going away and Brandon was in discomfort at the least, pain in the most, so why not give him the rest of the game off and bring in Sutton?


Lol I think I have a pretty good idea what a cramp feels like (get em all the time at night) and I'm pretty sure Brandon does too. No need for the mobile MRI unit.

[texasdave]

No harm, no foul. I thought Dusty should have pulled him in that situation just to err on the side of caution, but it isn't the first time a player tried to 'rub some dirt on it' and try to finish a game.

[brm7675]

This is where we disagree, I see HUGE harm. It shows me that Dusty is more worried about his relationship with his players then the overall performance of the team. The smart baseball move at that point is to remove the hurt player and go with someone who is 100% and don't be worried if it hurts the feelings of the player who is banged up. Managers are there to manage the team and put the best possible team on teh field at all times, not be friends with the players.


No harm, no foul. I thought Dusty should have pulled him in that situation just to err on the side of caution, but it isn't the first time a player tried to 'rub some dirt on it' and try to finish a game.

[Vottomatic]

I find fault with Dusty often too. But not last night. If BP says he's alright, I leave him in too.

Seems like you're nitpicking big time.

[Quatitos]

This is where we disagree, I see HUGE harm. It shows me that Dusty is more worried about his relationship with his players then the overall performance of the team. The smart baseball move at that point is to remove the hurt player and go with someone who is 100% and don't be worried if it hurts the feelings of the player who is banged up. Managers are there to manage the team and put the best possible team on teh field at all times, not be friends with the players.

First off, it was a cramp, nothing was really injured. Cramps hurt, but there is no real damage done by them.

Second, if you used this kind of thinking, you would remove players whenever they were hit by a pitch, since that hurt them. Would you agree with a manager that took people out after they got hit by a fastball in the back. I mean they could tell you they feel fine, but you can't trust the player to know how they feel. So just yank em out and put someone else in who hasn't felt any pain today.

For example, Joey Votto takes a ball to the thigh, but says he is fine. You can't trust that he knows how much pain he is in, so take him out and put Cairo in. I think we can all agree that something like that would be a bad idea.

[The Voice of IH]

You have to listen to the trainer as well, I doubt that Trainer said "I think he should come out" and Baker said..."No if Brandon Says he is fine, he is fine!" Baker has to surrounded himself with people he trust. that includes his coaching staff, players, and trainers. and he has to listen to them. I am sure it was not all his doing keeping him in, it was either a group decision, or a group consistences.

[brm7675]

First off, how do we know it was just a cramp? Are we going off the players word for that? Wouldn't it be better to have a doctor or at least a trainer take a look at it?

Second, he couldn't move he had no range he was darn lucky to get to the ball he got to, and if it was just a cramp why didn't he finish the game? If he was 'okay' to stay in, then he is 'okay' to finish the game. When I see a player grabbing the back of his leg and 'trying' to stretch it out, I want a doctor to see him. And yes lets say a batter gets plunked in the head, he is out of the game and getting looked at. Remember when Hatcher got plunked on the hand in the WS? What happen? The game was over for the most part, you error on the side of safety and get him out.


First off, it was a cramp, nothing was really injured. Cramps hurt, but there is no real damage done by them.

Second, if you used this kind of thinking, you would remove players whenever they were hit by a pitch, since that hurt them. Would you agree with a manager that took people out after they got hit by a fastball in the back. I mean they could tell you they feel fine, but you can't trust the player to know how they feel. So just yank em out and put someone else in who hasn't felt any pain today.

For example, Joey Votto takes a ball to the thigh, but says he is fine. You can't trust that he knows how much pain he is in, so take him out and put Cairo in. I think we can all agree that something like that would be a bad idea.

[Caveman Techie]

First off, how do we know it was just a cramp? Are we going off the players word for that?

Do you not know what a leg cramp feels like? There is no mistaking it, and if Brandon told him it was a cramp, then thats what it was!

[Hanover]

It was a stinking cramp.

Yes, I realize he struggled to get to the next ball. That is why he was taken out during the next inning.

[Caveman Techie]

Second, he couldn't move he had no range he was darn lucky to get to the ball he got to,

And the ground ball you are talking about was before they even came out to check him out. Del Rosario made a pitch when Brandon was still suffering from the cramp, and no one asked for "time". You are being nitpicky and trying to blame Dusty for something that is a non-issue.

If you wanted to blame Dusty for something it should be why they didn't call time before the pitch was made when they saw Brandon was having trouble.

[brm7675]

A) yes I have and it just doesn't go away and your mobility just doesn't return to 100%
B) Homer says his arm is fine, just a little twinge...yet we DL him?

Again what would have been lost by removing Brandon and putting Sutton in the game right then outside of maybe Brandon's ego, which we know is so important.:rolleyes:


Do you not know what a leg cramp feels like? There is no mistaking it, and if Brandon told him it was a cramp, then thats what it was!

[brm7675]

I blame Dusty for it also, you could see Brandon was in pain/discomfort and Dusty and the trainer should have been right out there, but Dusty was probably asleep and someone probably had to awaken him. Sorry but the health of your players is not a "non-issue".


And the ground ball you are talking about was before they even came out to check him out. Del Rosario made a pitch when Brandon was still suffering from the cramp, and no one asked for "time". You are being nitpicky and trying to blame Dusty for something that is a non-issue.

If you wanted to blame Dusty for something it should be why they didn't call time before the pitch was made when they saw Brandon was having trouble.

[Caveman Techie]

A) yes I have and it just doesn't go away and your mobility just doesn't return to 100%
B) Homer says his arm is fine, just a little twinge...yet we DL him?

Again what would have been lost by removing Brandon and putting Sutton in the game right then outside of maybe Brandon's ego, which we know is so important.:rolleyes:

A)And did you go running to the DR. office when you had a cramp? You know I hear it's better to be safe than sorry on something like that.

B)A pitcher with a "twinge" in his shoulder is a little bit more serious than a player getting a simple cramp.

[brm7675]

No but I did sit down for a while and relax the leg and such, which is what at least Brandon should have done. Why is it worse if the pitcher says hey I am okay, i can continue. Again if you leave it up to players they won't come out.

Again what "harm" would it have been to pull Brandon and play it safe? Why risk further injury or such when the game was in hand.


A)And did you go running to the DR. office when you had a cramp? You know I hear it's better to be safe than sorry on something like that.

B)A pitcher with a "twinge" in his shoulder is a little bit more serious than a player getting a simple cramp.

[Caveman Techie]

I'm done with this thread, I can't believe I got sucked in to an argument over a player having a leg cramp.:rolleyes:

When will I learn to just ignore it.

[brm7675]

This thread has nothing to do with a leg cramp, but the ability of our "manager" to do his job and put the best players on the field. Dusty showed again last night he doesn't have the ability to "manage' this team and is more worried his personal relationships with his players over managing this team.


I'm done with this thread, I can't believe I got sucked in to an argument over a player having a leg cramp.:rolleyes:

When will I learn to just ignore it.

[BurgervilleBuck]

A) What the player thinks should not matter, very few players will say 'take me out" that is why we employ managers
What's this "we" crap? Are you a manager? How many games at the major league level have you managed? Obviously, Phillips didn't think he should come out and he'd be the best judge since, y'know, it's his body.


B) Did you see how he struggled to get to that next ground ball?
Yah, cramps can hobble you temporarily.


C) It was the top of the 8th with a 7 run lead, why keep him in?
Because it was top of the 8th with a 7 run lead.


D) No Dusty gets 'picked" on because he is an.... who should not be in charge of any pro baseball team.
See my response to your point A).

[Quatitos]

First off, how do we know it was just a cramp? Are we going off the players word for that? Wouldn't it be better to have a doctor or at least a trainer take a look at it?

Second, he couldn't move he had no range he was darn lucky to get to the ball he got to, and if it was just a cramp why didn't he finish the game? If he was 'okay' to stay in, then he is 'okay' to finish the game. When I see a player grabbing the back of his leg and 'trying' to stretch it out, I want a doctor to see him. And yes lets say a batter gets plunked in the head, he is out of the game and getting looked at. Remember when Hatcher got plunked on the hand in the WS? What happen? The game was over for the most part, you error on the side of safety and get him out.

I did not say getting hit in the head, I said getting hit at all. You resort to specific bad scenarios even though you are preaching about blanket statements. Anyways, aside from that, where do you draw the line to error on the side of safety?

I guess getting hit by a pitch has more bad scenarios than getting a cramp does, so I will resort to something about the same severity of getting a cramp. Lets say a player slides and scratches up their elbow a bit (I mean no blood just scraped up a bit, which is about the severity of a cramp), I assume by your reasoning you would automatically take them out because you can't risk their long term health for any sort of "injury".

Also, I am not arguing that play should have been stopped earlier to check out Phillips. Someone should have noticed that Phillips was not getting back to position or was trying to stretch his calf back out. But, if it was actually a severe injury Brandon would have made sure that play was stopped.

This is just kind of silly that you are saying Dusty can't manage because he has a relationship of trust with his players. A manager would be unable to manage if he does not have a certain level of trust with all of his players. If anyone thinks that having, and trying to maintain a level of trust and respect between players and managers is a bad thing, well I am glad they are not in charge of the Reds management.

[bengalsown]

this thread is pathetic...

[RedsFanInBama]

Some people will look for anything to whine about.

By the way, brm, didn't you post two days ago that you were done blaming Dusty? That lasted a hell of a long time.

[Vottomatic]

.......and Brandon played last night and had several key hits. But yeah.......he's injured. (sarcasm)

This may go down as the dumbest thread of the year.

[BurgervilleBuck]

.......and Brandon played last night and had several key hits. But yeah.......he's injured. (sarcasm)

This may go down as the dumbest thread of the year.

Actually, it has competition (http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=82364).