South Africa 2010 - World Cup Final: Netherlands vs. Spain

[WMR]

Pretty perfect timing, huh?

2-1 Dutch

[MWM]

I think Spain wins 1-0 in similar fashion to the Germany game.

[BringDownMugabe]

Though this has nothing to do with the championship game, atleast not directly, this is still worth a look -- or a laugh.


Head referee: 96 percent of calls correct
Associated Press

DERDEPOORT, South Africa -- Despite complaints about game-changing mistakes and FIFA's agreement to revisit how technology can help officials, the head of refereeing for soccer's governing body says that the World Cup has been a success.
Jose Maria Garcia-Aranda said Saturday that an analysis of the first 62 matches showed referees got more than 96 percent of their decisions right.
"It is a big success," the Spanish official said at a news briefing. "We have to say it is not an opinion [but] facts."
“
We are not hiding our mistakes or the mistakes of the referees on the field of play.

” -- Jose Maria Garcia-Aranda,
FIFA's head of refereeing
FIFA acknowledged that referees made errors, though in "only a few" matches.
"We are not hiding our mistakes or the mistakes of the referees on the field of play," Garcia-Aranda said in a robust defense of FIFA's officiating program.
World Cup final referee Howard Webb agreed that mistakes had been made but said they were largely isolated.
"There is no point us sitting here as match officials and saying everything is absolutely perfect," said the 38-year-old Englishman, who is one of the few professional referees among the 29 FIFA selected for World Cup duty.
"But it's also right to point out that the vast majority of decisions have been very sound and very correct."
Referees were widely criticized after a series of mistakes in the first half of the tournament.
In the group stage, the United States was denied a likely winning goal late in its game against Slovenia, then a Brazil goal against Ivory Coast was allowed to stand despite two apparent handballs by Luis Fabiano leading up to it. Brazil's Kaka was ejected later in the same match when it appeared he and an Ivory Coast player collided accidentally.
The pressure was stepped up after errors by assistant referees affected the outcome of two second-round games. FIFA will revisit proposals to introduce goal-line technology in response to England being denied a clear goal, which would have tied its match against Germany 2-2 late in the first half. Germany went on to win 4-1.
Italian referee Roberto Rosetti has retired, three years before reaching the mandatory age to step down from duty, after he missed an offside call that allowed Argentina to score its first goal against Mexico. The Argentines went on to win, 3-1.
FIFA did not award control of another match to any of the four referees involved in the main controversies.
Garcia-Aranda said all of the errors have been studied carefully, and the referees' 96 percent accuracy rate favorably with the success of players taking penalty kicks.
Just nine of 15 penalties awarded during matches have been scored, a 60 percent accuracy rate.
"I think the refereeing in this tournament has been more than good," Garcia-Aranda said.


http://espn.go.com/espn/print?id=5368989&type=story
(http://espn.go.com/espn/print?id=5368989&type=story)

Keep up the fine work, FIFA. :rolleyes:

[Yachtzee]

Though this has nothing to do with the championship game, atleast not directly, this is still worth a look -- or a laugh.



http://espn.go.com/espn/print?id=5368989&type=story
(http://espn.go.com/espn/print?id=5368989&type=story)

Keep up the fine work, FIFA. :rolleyes:

They're definitely missing the point. This seems like an argument to bolster their position against replay or technology in games. Why they can't have goal line technology or have post-game reviews to lift suspensions for erroneous red cards is beyond me.

[Yachtzee]

Did anyone see Germany-Uruguay today? I missed it due to a golf outing I had previously committed to, but following it on my droid on the course, it looked like it might have been pretty exciting, with a 3-2 win for Germany with two big swings in lead changes.

[sabometrics]

Did anyone see Germany-Uruguay today? I missed it due to a golf outing I had previously committed to, but following it on my droid on the course, it looked like it might have been pretty exciting, with a 3-2 win for Germany with two big swings in lead changes.

One of the more exciting ones, even though it didn't have everything riding on it the way the semi-finals/finals did/will. Forlan took an incredible free kick in the last seconds of extra time, had me jumping out of my seat going "I can't believe that, it was soooo close."

[MWM]

Forlan's goal yesterday was nothing short of brilliant... Actually, Forlan has probably been the best player in this World Cup. He really came to play and has some crazy good skills.

[reds1869]

Forlan's goal yesterday was nothing short of brilliant... Actually, Forlan has probably been the best player in this World Cup. He really came to play and has some crazy good skills.

I agree that Forlan has been amazing, though I think Mueller and Villa would have something to say about the best player discussion. As sabometrics said, the final Forlan freekick was stunning. About as close as you can get without actually equalizing.

[MWM]

Van Bommell is going to wind up with a red in the game, I have a feeling.

[MWM]

Well, didn't take long for him to get is first yellow.

Dutch better be VERY careful here. They're playing dirty and are going to lose a player if they don't stop it.

[MWM]

Very cynical play from the Dutch in the first half. It's just a matter of time before they lose someone. If I'm the Dutch manager, I take Van Bommell out of the game. He's dangerous and going to wind up seriously hurting someone. He doesn't add all that much to the game, but when he gets near the ball, it looks like all he's thinking is taking someone out.

[MWM]

This is an embarrassment for the sport. Villa's dive would have made even Cristiano Ronaldo proud. And the ref bought it hook, line, and sinker. He even wound up giving the guy a yellow. Disgraceful.

[Homer Bailey]

I've really gotten into soccer this world cup, but this game is going to leave me with a bad taste in my mouth for 4 years.

[MWM]

Good lord, all the diving has ruined this game. These refs have no chance.

Robben might be a really good player, but he acts like a spoiled brat.

[Yachtzee]

Wow. I fell asleep. Not exactly the most thrilling game.

[MWM]

Well, this is better than PKs. But this is two straight very cynical WC final games. FIFA better get off their arses and start doing something about this nonsense.

[jmcclain19]

I think the Dutch had a pre game bet on whether all 11 guys could pick up a yellow card.

The Octopus Is never wrong - Spain wins.

[jmcclain19]

The diving thing just really wrings out a lot of the enjoyment for me. A least the EPL starts in a few weeks.

[Yachtzee]

I woke up just in time for the goal. If karma has its way, these two teams won't sniff another final for a long time. If FIFA was serious about stamping out dirty play, Van Bommel and De Jong would have been sent off in the first half. They didn't even make pretense of going for the ball.

[oneupper]

This one was right down there with the 2006 and 1990 finals. Awful.
Terrible finishing by both teams. Lots of rough play and consequently diving looking for a send-off.
I have a lot of Spanish friends, so I won't have to pick up a tab for a while. :)

[jmcclain19]

Amazingly stark difference between the 3rd place game and the final too. Yesterdays game was eons more entertaining. Wondering if Uruguay and Germany were both at full strength if the games wouldn't have reversed.

[oneupper]

The third place game is like the NBA All-Star game. No one plays defense.

[reds1869]

I've watched every Final since I was old enough to remember them. This was the biggest dog of them all. The most frustrating thing about it was watching two supremely talented squads play so cynically. Spain plays a beautiful game but ruins it with their Greg Louganis imitations. Hopefully in four years the trophy will be lifted by a team that plays beautifully and honestly.

[MWM]

The one good thing is that Spain has been the best team in the word for a few years, so at least they are a very worthy champion, unlike Italy in 2006.

[reds1869]

The one good thing is that Spain has been the best team in the word for a few years, so at least they are a very worthy champion, unlike Italy in 2006.

A very good point. Spain are the undisputed best team in the world at the moment.

[MWM]

Another good thing was how good the coverage was from ESPN (and I loathe ESPN). Alexi Lalas is awesome as a TV analyst and their personalities for other sports should take notes. I also LOVED listening to Steve McManaman.... and Klinsman, but to a lesser degree. Good solid, insightful dialog. There were no John Kruks or Keyshon Johnsons or Chris Bermans or Stuart Scotts. It's amazing how good they can be when they stick to just discussing the game intelligently.

If all their coverage were that good, I may actually start watching ESPN again (seriously, outside of college football season, I don't watch more than an hour of ESPN a month, if that even).

[Yachtzee]

I've watched every Final since I was old enough to remember them. This was the biggest dog of them all. The most frustrating thing about it was watching two supremely talented squads play so cynically. Spain plays a beautiful game but ruins it with their Greg Louganis imitations. Hopefully in four years the trophy will be lifted by a team that plays beautifully and honestly.

I think the dirty tackles and dives fed off each other. The ref should have had the guts to flash a red card early in the game to show both teams that shenanigans would not be tolerated.

[Javy Pornstache]

I laughed at everyone claiming this would be a "wide open" final, I am not sure which teams they had been watching to proclaim that, unless it was optimistic thinking. It was clear to anyone that has followed ANY of this cup for the past month that this final would be anything but. A Spain game is about guaranteed to be a 1-0 final, a Dutch game is about guaranteed to have a million cards, and either team is guaranteed to be dive-city. Agreed on the 3rd place game being like the NBA All-star game, but still, it was very enjoyable.

[Javy Pornstache]

Another good thing was how good the coverage was from ESPN (and I loathe ESPN). Alexi Lawless is awesome as a TV analyst and their personalities for other sports should take notes. I also LOVED listening to Steve McManaman.... and Klinsman, but to a lesser degree. Good solid, insightful dialog. There were no John Kruks or Keyshon Johnsons or Chris Bermans or Stuart Scotts. It's amazing how good they can be when they stick to just discussing the game intelligently.

If all their coverage were that good, I may actually start watching ESPN again (seriously, outside of college football season, I don't watch more than an hour of ESPN a month, if that even).

Agree 100%, Lalas has always been awesome, and really loved the touch of adding McManaman and Ruud and Roberto and some of the others to the studio. And I sure didn't miss Jack Edwards doing play-by-play this go around, glad they got actual international football broadcasters. Top-notch job by ESPN... maybe the first time those words have been uttered. :)

[reds1869]

Agree 100%, Lalas has always been awesome, and really loved the touch of adding McManaman and Ruud and Roberto and some of the others to the studio. And I sure didn't miss Jack Edwards doing play-by-play this go around, glad they got actual international football broadcasters. Top-notch job by ESPN... maybe the first time those words have been uttered. :)

No doubt their coverage was top shelf. Baseball America had an article in which the author praised ESPN's soccer coverage and asked why their other coverage can't be the same.

[improbus]

As bad as Robben was, at least he was getting kicked to go down. Iniesta was an embarassment and it was both fitting (for the game itself) and a shame (for the tournament as a whole) that he got the goal. I hate it when that kind of play is rewarded.

[Yachtzee]

As bad as Robben was, at least he was getting kicked to go down. Iniesta was an embarassment and it was both fitting (for the game itself) and a shame (for the tournament as a whole) that he got the goal. I hate it when that kind of play is rewarded.

The worst part is that some of the other teams that played negative are going to feel vindicated, as though this is the way you win. I was really hoping a team that played straight out attacking soccer would have won.

I agree about ESPN's coverage. I loved the shift from the old way of covering the sport, where the announcers would spend much of the match treating the viewers like soccer was some new, foreign sport we didn't understand, to having the announcers focus on the game at hand and the analysts provide meaningful insight. My hope is that it will improve coverage of USMNT games in qualifiers and other ESPN coverage for the MLS, EPL, and La Liga. I'm also hoping Germany's play might encourage ESPN or FSC to pick up the Bundesliga. I think they could then put on more games featuring Americans abroad. It might help Americans follow the sport between World Cups if we could see more of guys like Howard, Bradley, Dempsey, Donovan (wherever he goes), Altidore, Cherundolo, etc. playing club games.

[improbus]

I would love to catch some Bundesliga games. FSC (or FSW) used to carry them, but I didn't care too much to watch. However, judging by what I've seen in the WC, I would be very interested in watching.

[improbus]

I'm not sure that I would truly categorize the Spanish as playing "negative" football. I think they play a very horizontal game and deliberate build-up game. That is very different than the Italians. They can be a very prolific scoring team, however they missed a ton of open looks. I thought I remembered hearing that there were 3-4 red card, in the box hand balls committed by their opponents.

They don't take the air out of the game by putting 10 players behind the ball like the Greeks, but instead they lull the other team to sleep through constant possession. Any team can play "negative" football, but no other team in the world can truly play the Spanish game.

[MWM]

Germany played a straight out attacking style the entire cup until they ran into Spain. It's tough to play that style well against a more deliberate ball control team. I agree with improbus that it wasn't necessarily negative (ala Italy). A good attacking team can deal with a negative team. But a ball control, slower buildup style makes it more difficult. But it will be interesting to see how the game evolves with the success of teams who are not as aggressive.

[Betterread]

Germany played a straight out attacking style the entire cup until they ran into Spain. It's tough to play that style well against a more deliberate ball control team. I agree with improbus that it wasn't necessarily negative (ala Italy). A good attacking team can deal with a negative team. But a ball control, slower buildup style makes it more difficult. But it will be interesting to see how the game evolves with the success of teams who are not as aggressive.

No-one plays a straight out attacking style in the WC. Its too risky.
Germany was out-shot and out-possessed vrs. England. Argentina and Spain. Basically, this means they played counter-attack in the elimination games. They sat back and waited for the right opportunities - the same approach as Italy in 2006. They just didn't do it as well.
What is ball control soccer? You have to explain that one. All players on the international level have good control of the ball - orthey wouldn't be selected.
Spain is generallly described as a possession-oriented team - following the brazilian model. Is that what you are attempting to say?

[MWM]

I have no interest in being baited on a thread that has been a lot of fun the past couple of months, so don't take it personal if i don't respond.

[westofyou]

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/11/sports/soccer/11cupfeature.html?_r=1&ref=sports



The Spanish style is based on the Dutch system of “total football,” developed at the Amsterdam club Ajax, where Cruyff learned the game. It requires every player on the field to be a playmaker, as a dribbler or passer, depending on what the situation requires.

Open sections of the field were not gaps to be traversed with long passes or frantic runs forward; rather, they were areas to mount an organized, well-fortified attack with keen passing and combination play. That is the sort of play Spain has used here to dominate possession on its way to the final after losing to Switzerland, 1-0, in its opening match.

“I think Spain is the country playing the best football in the past few years,” Netherlands Coach Bert van Marwijk said Saturday. “I’ve been the coach of the national squad for two years now, and during that time, it has crossed my mind that I would love to play Spain, and now it is happening.”

He added: “Both teams have their own style, and they do resemble each other. Right now, Spain has executed better.”

[Yachtzee]

I'm not sure that I would truly categorize the Spanish as playing "negative" football. I think they play a very horizontal game and deliberate build-up game. That is very different than the Italians. They can be a very prolific scoring team, however they missed a ton of open looks. I thought I remembered hearing that there were 3-4 red card, in the box hand balls committed by their opponents.

They don't take the air out of the game by putting 10 players behind the ball like the Greeks, but instead they lull the other team to sleep through constant possession. Any team can play "negative" football, but no other team in the world can truly play the Spanish game.

I don't think they really went negative until the final against the Netherlands.

[Betterread]

Spain deserved to win. The Dutch were an embarrassment to their own tradition. I can't stand Robben but I give him a lot of credit for not going down under Puyol's challenge in extra time - which he easily could have done and gotten a PK. Although he lost some of his cred when he whined to the ref right afterwards.

[Betterread]

I don't think they really went negative until the final against the Netherlands.
I saw Iniesta and Villa dive one each. That doesn't make the team negative to me.

[improbus]

I saw Iniesta and Villa dive one each. That doesn't make the team negative to me.

Iniesta dove more than once.

[Yachtzee]

No-one plays a straight out attacking style in the WC. Its too risky.
Germany was out-shot and out-possessed vrs. England. Argentina and Spain. Basically, this means they played counter-attack in the elimination games. They sat back and waited for the right opportunities - the same approach as Italy in 2006. They just didn't do it as well.
What is ball control soccer? You have to explain that one. All players on the international level have good control of the ball - orthey wouldn't be selected.
Spain is generallly described as a possession-oriented team - following the brazilian model. Is that what you are attempting to say?

I don't think it means that at all. The German offense this time around was built for speed. Jogi Loew's philosophy was that, for this team, the best defense was a good offense. People have been using the possession stat to imply the Germans were content to wait for the counter. On the contrary, the Germans typically attacked throughout the game, moving the ball upfield quickly with quick, sharp passing to open up scoring opportunities. The defense moved up to support the offense. I think the possession difference came more from the other teams building slower, more deliberate attacks from the backfield and exercising caution so as to not lose possession to the potent German offense. I liken it to American football games where one team has a high-powered pass-oriented offense that seeks to win by scoring fast and often, and the other team seeks to beat that team with slow, deliberate drives to keep their offense off the field.

[Betterread]

I don't think it means that at all. The German offense this time around was built for speed. Jogi Loew's philosophy was that, for this team, the best defense was a good offense. People have been using the possession stat to imply the Germans were content to wait for the counter. On the contrary, the Germans typically attacked throughout the game, moving the ball upfield quickly with quick, sharp passing to open up scoring opportunities. The defense moved up to support the offense. I think the possession difference came more from the other teams building slower, more deliberate attacks from the backfield and exercising caution so as to not lose possession to the potent German offense. I liken it to American football games where one team has a high-powered pass-oriented offense that seeks to win by scoring fast and often, and the other team seeks to beat that team with slow, deliberate drives to keep their offense off the field.
Interesting perspective. So where's the speed - Muller, Klose, Podolski, Schweinsteiger - I don't really consider them pacy. I do think Germany played well as a collective unit and benefitted from early goals so the other team had to take the game to them.

[reds1869]

I would love to catch some Bundesliga games. FSC (or FSW) used to carry them, but I didn't care too much to watch. However, judging by what I've seen in the WC, I would be very interested in watching.

ESPN Deportes (and ESPN3 online if you have it) carries two weekly Bundesliga matches . Other than that the only option is Gol TV. The contract runs through 2010 so it won't be changing soon.

[Yachtzee]

Interesting perspective. So where's the speed - Muller, Klose, Podolski, Schweinsteiger - I don't really consider them pacy. I do think Germany played well as a collective unit and benefitted from early goals so the other team had to take the game to them.

I think the speed comes more from speed of passing, speed of decision making, and constantly moving up to be in the right position to receive the next pass. Here's an SI article from last year where Joachim Loew emphasizes the need for speed:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/writers/world_soccer/08/05/german.preview/index.html

[Yachtzee]

ESPN Deportes (and ESPN3 online if you have it) carries two weekly Bundesliga matches . Other than that the only option is Gol TV. The contract runs through 2010 so it won't be changing soon.

Unfortunately, ESPN3 isn't available for us Time Warner Cable Internet customers. It would be nice if they moved some of that ESPN Deportes coverage to ESPN or ESPN2. I really can't justify purchasing the Spanish Language Cable Package just to watch German soccer in a language I don't understand. And I doubt they ever pick up Gol TV. I find it odd that the Bundesliga is only carried on primarily Spanish Language channels in this country.

[reds1869]

Unfortunately, ESPN3 isn't available for us Time Warner Cable Internet customers. It would be nice if they moved some of that ESPN Deportes coverage to ESPN or ESPN2. I really can't justify purchasing the Spanish Language Cable Package just to watch German soccer in a language I don't understand. And I doubt they ever pick up Gol TV. I find it odd that the Bundesliga is only carried on primarily Spanish Language channels in this country.

I also have Time Warner so can't get ESPN3 through it. I'm lucky that my dad has a Verizon Surround account that he let's me use for remote access. He doesn't use so he figures that he'll just let me have at it--and I'm not going to argue.

As for the Bundesliga in Spanish, I agree that it is odd. Welcome to the wonderful world of international broadcasting rights.

[improbus]

Well, Mueller and Ozil are extremely fast and they were the ones launching and finishing many of the attacks.

[Cedric]

Just wanted to stop in and say I thought the final was wretched. It consisted imo of what is wrong with soccer. 30 million dollar players with no weak foot ability, flopping all over, and some terrible work from Howard Webb the ref.

[reds1869]

Just wanted to stop in and say I thought the final was wretched. It consisted imo of what is wrong with soccer. 30 million dollar players with no weak foot ability, flopping all over, and some terrible work from Howard Webb the ref.

Webb was especially disappointing. I've always thought he was a wonderful ref but he mishandled this match badly.

[jmcclain19]

Another good thing was how good the coverage was from ESPN (and I loathe ESPN). Alexi Lalas is awesome as a TV analyst and their personalities for other sports should take notes. I also LOVED listening to Steve McManaman.... and Klinsman, but to a lesser degree. Good solid, insightful dialog. There were no John Kruks or Keyshon Johnsons or Chris Bermans or Stuart Scotts. It's amazing how good they can be when they stick to just discussing the game intelligently.

If all their coverage were that good, I may actually start watching ESPN again (seriously, outside of college football season, I don't watch more than an hour of ESPN a month, if that even).

I told one of my friends that watching ESPN again for the first time in ages thanks to the World Cup was a stark contrast in styles.

I likened it to watching the Masters or Wimbledon, subtle, smart & without the need for the volume knob. Then when the commericals or a Sportscenter break would pop in, it was back to Monster Truck Rally time - screaming at you to be on the edge of your seat.

[Chip R]

I told one of my friends that watching ESPN again for the first time in ages thanks to the World Cup was a stark contrast in styles.

I likened it to watching the Masters or Wimbledon, subtle, smart & without the need for the volume knob. Then when the commericals or a Sportscenter break would pop in, it was back to Monster Truck Rally time - screaming at you to be on the edge of your seat.


Probably because the game was on SUNDAY! SUNDAY! SUNDAY! SUNDAY!!!

[improbus]

Webb was especially disappointing. I've always thought he was a wonderful ref but he mishandled this match badly.

I'm not so sure. The Dutch tend to put the refs in an impossible situation. What do you you do with Robben? His game is based around drawing fouls, but what he does isn't illegal. He relentlessly runs at defenders. He is the Manu Ginobili of soccer.

[improbus]

I told one of my friends that watching ESPN again for the first time in ages thanks to the World Cup was a stark contrast in styles.

I likened it to watching the Masters or Wimbledon, subtle, smart & without the need for the volume knob. Then when the commericals or a Sportscenter break would pop in, it was back to Monster Truck Rally time - screaming at you to be on the edge of your seat.
I haven't seen it in a while, but I one remembered watching a Serie A highlight show where they simply played cool music in the background and had no one talking. No pundits, no catch-phrases. Now, it was somewhat stylized, but it was done in a very entertaining way that highlighted the soccer above all. Has anyone ese ever seen it?

[Cedric]

I'm not so sure. The Dutch tend to put the refs in an impossible situation. What do you you do with Robben? His game is based around drawing fouls, but what he does isn't illegal. He relentlessly runs at defenders. He is the Manu Ginobili of soccer.

You have to red card someone for what De Jong did. That was a blatantly bad call. He also missed a huge non corner kick later in the game.

That's just the missed calls and not the overall lack of control he showed, IMO.

[reds1869]

You have to red card someone for what De Jong did. That was a blatantly bad call. He also missed a huge non corner kick later in the game.

That's just the missed calls and not the overall lack of control he showed, IMO.

I agree with all of those things. The missed corner kick was a game changer--maybe the game changer. He also allowed the fouling to be out of control. Even with the number of cards he issued it wasn't enough. Avoiding a red just because it is the final is inexcusable. If you dish one or two out early, the tone is set and the players will either reign in their behavior or be sent off. Who wouldn't enjoy a little five a side at the final? :D

[Chip R]

I agree with all of those things. The missed corner kick was a game changer--maybe the game changer. He also allowed the fouling to be out of control. Even with the number of cards he issued it wasn't enough. Avoiding a red just because it is the final is inexcusable. If you dish one or two out early, the tone is set and the players will either reign in their behavior or be sent off. Who wouldn't enjoy a little five a side at the final? :D


But do you want the title game to become a morass of yellow/red cards with players leaving the game? The NBA refs caught 10 kinds of hell in the 1st couple of games of the finals because they called so many fouls and didn't let the players play. Perhaps the ref for the final didn't want the game - and the sport - to become a joke. I think where the tone needs to be set is not early in the final game but in the preliminary rounds. If you run a bunch of players in the prelims, there will be criticism but I believe if it's called tight in all the games, the players will come around - especially if they are facing a suspension for a potential red card. You have a crazy prelim game and people will talk about it until the next day when there's another game. You have one in the final and that's what they talk about fore the next several months/years.

It seems the decision needs to be made by FIFA to get the rough play out of soccer - especially in the World Cup. But if they take the Officer Barbrady approach, they are going to continue to have problems in their final games.

[reds1869]

But do you want the title game to become a morass of yellow/red cards with players leaving the game? The NBA refs caught 10 kinds of hell in the 1st couple of games of the finals because they called so many fouls and didn't let the players play. Perhaps the ref for the final didn't want the game - and the sport - to become a joke. I think where the tone needs to be set is not early in the final game but in the preliminary rounds. If you run a bunch of players in the prelims, there will be criticism but I believe if it's called tight in all the games, the players will come around - especially if they are facing a suspension for a potential red card. You have a crazy prelim game and people will talk about it until the next day when there's another game. You have one in the final and that's what they talk about fore the next several months/years.

It seems the decision needs to be made by FIFA to get the rough play out of soccer - especially in the World Cup. But if they take the Officer Barbrady approach, they are going to continue to have problems in their final games.

I agree that it needs to be done in the earlier rounds. But to me they didn't prevent the game from being a joke, they just made it a different kind of joke. At some point the message needs to be sent that professional fouls, diving and cheap shots will not be tolerated. FIFA needs to consistently enforce the laws of the game and reward positive, sporting play.

[Chip R]

FIFA needs to consistently enforce the laws of the game and reward positive, sporting play.


That would not only help the aesthetics of the matches but would also set a good example for kids watching all over the world.

[bucksfan2]

Webb was especially disappointing. I've always thought he was a wonderful ref but he mishandled this match badly.

Really? I don't know enough about soccer but I thought he did a good job. I think the Dutch wanted to make sure it was a physical game while the Spanish were content with flopping all over the place. From my viewpoint no major off sides call was missed and no goal was disallowed.

The one issue I had was when Robben clearly was fouled on his break away. But I think the announcer nailed it on the head. If Robben goes down its a red card but Robben wanted to glory instead and fought to stay on his feet which led him to be off balance and not able to get a real shot off.

[Yachtzee]

But do you want the title game to become a morass of yellow/red cards with players leaving the game? The NBA refs caught 10 kinds of hell in the 1st couple of games of the finals because they called so many fouls and didn't let the players play. Perhaps the ref for the final didn't want the game - and the sport - to become a joke. I think where the tone needs to be set is not early in the final game but in the preliminary rounds. If you run a bunch of players in the prelims, there will be criticism but I believe if it's called tight in all the games, the players will come around - especially if they are facing a suspension for a potential red card. You have a crazy prelim game and people will talk about it until the next day when there's another game. You have one in the final and that's what they talk about fore the next several months/years.

It seems the decision needs to be made by FIFA to get the rough play out of soccer - especially in the World Cup. But if they take the Officer Barbrady approach, they are going to continue to have problems in their final games.

The difference between the NBA and soccer is that red cards are a harsher penalty than anything in basketball. Not only do you leave, but your team has to play down a man the rest of the game. An early red, and De Jong clearly earned one, would have set the tone for the game. It would have put the Dutch on notice that dirty play would not be tolerated and kept the Spanish honest for fear of giving the ref a reason to "even things up." The Dutch would also have to worry about going down to 9 men. Once they found out Webb wasn't going to give out a straight red, it became open season for dirty play.

As far as calling the preliminary rounds, there was just no consistency. The Germany-Australia game was called tight, with Oezil drawing an early yellow for simulation when all he did was go down on light contact with no additional playacting. Normally the ref just says "play on" and tells Oezil to get up.

I think what they need is to bring in refs for a "boot camp" before the World Cup and tell them regardless of how they call games in their home countries, this is how it will be for the Cup.

[Yachtzee]

Johan Cruyff has harsh words . . . for the Dutch.

http://soccernet.espn.go.com/world-cup/story/_/id/808405/ce/uk/?cc=5901&ver=us

[Chip R]

The difference between the NBA and soccer is that red cards are a harsher penalty than anything in basketball. Not only do you leave, but your team has to play down a man the rest of the game. An early red, and De Jong clearly earned one, would have set the tone for the game. It would have put the Dutch on notice that dirty play would not be tolerated and kept the Spanish honest for fear of giving the ref a reason to "even things up." The Dutch would also have to worry about going down to 9 men. Once they found out Webb wasn't going to give out a straight red, it became open season for dirty play.

And if Webb had done what you suggested and Spain rolled over an outmanned Dutch squad, everyone would have blamed Webb for the Dutch losing and making himself bigger than the game. Continuing with the NBA analogy, giving De Jong a red card is akin to giving someone like Derek Fisher two Technical fouls in the 1st quarter. Sure, they still can play 5 on 5 but they are losing one of their best players for the entire game. The ref may have been within the rules to give those technical fouls to Fisher but did he really have to? If the Lakers lose, everyone will blame the loss on the ref. No sport wants the refs to be the story. You also have to think that the Dutch were going to play very aggressive in the final and Webb knew that. He - and FIFA - probably didn't want to have the Dutch play a man or two down in the final so they let things go.


I think what they need is to bring in refs for a "boot camp" before the World Cup and tell them regardless of how they call games in their home countries, this is how it will be for the Cup.

Sounds like a great idea. Would adding another official on the field help?

[reds1869]

I think what they need is to bring in refs for a "boot camp" before the World Cup and tell them regardless of how they call games in their home countries, this is how it will be for the Cup.

I think that is an excellent idea. If you watch MLS or the Bundesliga, play is extremely physical and a lot of contact is accepted. Turn on Ligue 1 or Serie A and breathing on your opponent is a yellow card. Most major competitions fall into the gray area in between. Having consistently applied standards would be a great move.

I also like Chip's idea of another referee; that is a simple solution that is so obvious it hurts. Of course, that doesn't mean FIFA will go for such a thing.

[Yachtzee]

And if Webb had done what you suggested and Spain rolled over an outmanned Dutch squad, everyone would have blamed Webb for the Dutch losing and making himself bigger than the game. Continuing with the NBA analogy, giving De Jong a red card is akin to giving someone like Derek Fisher two Technical fouls in the 1st quarter. Sure, they still can play 5 on 5 but they are losing one of their best players for the entire game. The ref may have been within the rules to give those technical fouls to Fisher but did he really have to? If the Lakers lose, everyone will blame the loss on the ref. No sport wants the refs to be the story. You also have to think that the Dutch were going to play very aggressive in the final and Webb knew that. He - and FIFA - probably didn't want to have the Dutch play a man or two down in the final so they let things go.




It's not the same. Everyone is already criticizing the ref for not taking control early and sending De Jong. It was blatant dangerous play and deserved a red card. Spikes to the chest is a serious deal. Part of the reason for that is to protect the players from dangerous play where a someone might try to break someone's leg or arm or some other vicious play. Soccer has a long history and the yellow card/red card system developed as a means of clamping down on the thuggery that pervaded the sport in some of its earlier times. When Pele first came on to the scene, the Argentinians and Europeans just about tried to kill him on the field.

If the ref had given De Jong the red, people would have criticized De Jong, not the ref. It was a no doubter and De Jong knew the rules when he stepped on the field.

[Yachtzee]

I think that is an excellent idea. If you watch MLS or the Bundesliga, play is extremely physical and a lot of contact is accepted. Turn on Ligue 1 or Serie A and breathing on your opponent is a yellow card. Most major competitions fall into the gray area in between. Having consistently applied standards would be a great move.

I also like Chip's idea of another referee; that is a simple solution that is so obvious it hurts. Of course, that doesn't mean FIFA will go for such a thing.

I think there's a difference in the physical play of the MLS and say EPL and Serie A. In the MLS or EPL, there's a history of using the body to maintain control of the ball, so players will get in closer and jostle for the ball. However, the MLS has always followed the "tough but fair" style preferred in the EPL, where diving and intentionally brutal play, like going in studs up or scissoring someone's legs, is very much frowned upon. I just started watching some Serie A again this past year and it has changed a bit from when I used to see it in the early '90s. In those days, defense was paramount and cynical hard fouls intended to hurt someone were common place. There was a certain nastiness about it, especially when Roma and Lazio or Inter and AC Milan would play. At the other end, diving and embellishment were outrageous and fans often inserted themselves into the game by throwing garbage at opposing players on the field. These days, it looks like Serie A has taken major steps to clamp down on that. There's still a lot of defense, some dirty tackles and diving, but it doesn't quite have the nasty viciousness it had in years gone by.

Note: one of the interesting things about Serie A is that games have a political as well as sporting influence. Part of the reason why Roma and Lazio hate each other isn't just because they're from the same city. Roma supporters have often had ties to Communist parties while Lazio has been linked to the Fascists (yes, they still exist in Italy). Fans see those games as a cultural war as well as a soccer game, or at least they used to.

[reds1869]

Note: one of the interesting things about Serie A is that games have a political as well as sporting influence. Part of the reason why Roma and Lazio hate each other isn't just because they're from the same city. Roma supporters have often had ties to Communist parties while Lazio has been linked to the Fascists (yes, they still exist in Italy). Fans see those games as a cultural war as well as a soccer game, or at least they used to.

The Roma-Lazio derby played behind closed doors a few years back was surreal to watch. Every little sound that you hear when you are on the pitch--the thwack of the ball, the chatter--you could hear on TV due to the lack of a crowd.

Interestingly enough, Milan v. Inter has shifted political sides a bit. It used to be Milan were the leftist side and Inter the right wingers, but Berlusconi's reign at AC Milan has changed that.

[NJReds]

I just started watching some Serie A again this past year and it has changed a bit from when I used to see it in the early '90s. In those days, defense was paramount and cynical hard fouls intended to hurt someone were common place. There was a certain nastiness about it, especially when Roma and Lazio or Inter and AC Milan would play.

I think players like Van Basten and Roberto Baggio both had their careers shortened due to the physical nature of Serie A. You didn't want to be a striker in Serie A in the late 80s/90s.

[improbus]

The loudest sporting moment I have ever been a part of involved Lazio and Roma. My dad and I went to a Lazio vs. Fiorentina game near the end of the 2001 season. Lazio was just behind Roma in the standings and Roma was on the road vs. Napoli (who was awful that season). The Lazio-Fiorentina game was a laugher (thanks to Pavel Nedved), but about 2/3 of the way into the second half, the entire crowd starts screaming and jumping up and down. My dad and I have NO idea what is going on and are getting a little scared. However, a minute later, the scoreboard flashes the message that Napoli was beating Roma. Apparently, some guy had a radio in the stadium.