Why we don't want Haren

[brm7675]

Some are pointing to Haren as a pitcher the Reds should go after. While Haren is a good pitcher, he is not better then the Reds top 3 and this small tid bit makes him even less wanted:

One general manager hears that interim GM Jerry DiPoto is asking for two starters plus bullpen help in exchange for Dan Haren.

[Kiss the Baby00]

i cant take it anymore. you make the worst posts with the worst opinions. every single post you make i want to smash my face into my desk because it is always horrible

dan haren isnt any better than our top 3?

do you know who dan haren is?

3.68 career era
7.7 k/9
07 era 3.07
08 era 3.33
09 era 3.14

Bronson career era 4.22
Cueto career era 4.32
Volquez career era 4.37

Tell me how these 3 are better than dan haren? should be entertaining....

[lidspinner]

dan haren would come in here and be no worse than #2 on this staff.....on Cueto right now is better...and maybe Edinson if he returns to form....but Haren is a freaking bulldog...eats innings, gets K's, low ERA, low WHIP....the guy is better than Bronson and some on this site wouldnt trade Bronson for Cliff Lee. (I am joking about that)...Dan Haren is a stud in the mold of a #2-3 starter....he is not a ace....but he would help this team from day 1.

Not sure if I would give up what they are asking if that is indeed what they are asking. matter of fact, I know I would not give up 2 MLB starters unless they are Janish and Bronson....

[redsfan_12]

Some are pointing to Haren as a pitcher the Reds should go after. While Haren is a good pitcher, he is not better then the Reds top 3 and this small tid bit makes him even less wanted:

One general manager hears that interim GM Jerry DiPoto is asking for two starters plus bullpen help in exchange for Dan Haren.

:laugh:

[GIDP]

If you are asking me who I want to pitch for the Reds next year, Haren, Arroyo, or Harang, im 100% going with Haren. The problem is getting a deal done for what the Dbakcs want, and like BRM said the rumors are that he wants half a pitching staff.

[Kiss the Baby00]

If you are asking me who I want to pitch for the Reds next year, Haren, Arroyo, or Harang, im 100% going with Haren. The problem is getting a deal done for what the Dbakcs want, and like BRM said the rumors are that he wants half a pitching staff.


thats why he is the interim GM

[MBZags]

If you are asking me who I want to pitch for the Reds next year, Haren, Arroyo, or Harang, im 100% going with Haren. The problem is getting a deal done for what the Dbakcs want, and like BRM said the rumors are that he wants half a pitching staff.

Asking prices in trades always begin at exorbitant rates. If they really want to unload Haren, that price will come down within the next couple weeks.

[brm7675]

i cant take it anymore. you make the worst posts with the worst opinions. every single post you make i want to smash my face into my desk because it is always horrible

dan haren isnt any better than our top 3?

do you know who dan haren is?

3.68 career era
7.7 k/9
07 era 3.07
08 era 3.33
09 era 3.14

Bronson career era 4.22
Cueto career era 4.32
Volquez career era 4.37

Tell me how these 3 are better than dan haren? should be entertaining....


How is Dan doing this year? Really how are his numbers right now at this point this season. I don't give a Rats butt what his career numbers are, I look at what he has done this season and right now, I will take Bronson/Cueto and Leake over Haren.

[Kiss the Baby00]

How is Dan doing this year? Really how are his numbers right now at this point this season. I don't give a Rats butt what his career numbers are, I look at what he has done this season and right now, I will take Bronson/Cueto and Leake over Haren.

lol then you arent a very knowledgeable baseball fan. half a season doesnt make or break a player.

[sivman17]

lol then you arent a very knowledgeable baseball fan. half a season doesnt make or break a player.

haha.. according to brm's reasoning, corey patterson is better than most of the players on our team (.289 BA, 16 SB)

[Red in Atl]

i cant take it anymore. you make the worst posts with the worst opinions. every single post you make i want to smash my face into my desk because it is always horrible

dan haren isnt any better than our top 3?

do you know who dan haren is?

3.68 career era
7.7 k/9
07 era 3.07
08 era 3.33
09 era 3.14

Bronson career era 4.22
Cueto career era 4.32
Volquez career era 4.37

Tell me how these 3 are better than dan haren? should be entertaining....

Child Please...I don't think there's any reason to jump all over the guy. Haren's pushing 31 and has thrown going on 6 straight seasons of 200+ innings. There are lots of ways to decide who is a better fit of a pitcher besides ERA.

Haren's a really good pitcher, but he isn't worth more than Alonzo and Maloney. Maybe another prospect thrown in.

It's crazy for teams like the Reds to clean out the farm system for a 3 month rental. We are on the verge of being a good team for the next foreseeable future. That is all due to young talent and a smart GM.

All BRM was saying is that the price for Haren is too high, and I agree.

[Kiss the Baby00]

Some are pointing to Haren as a pitcher the Reds should go after. While Haren is a good pitcher, he is not better then the Reds top 3 and this small tid bit makes him even less wanted:

One general manager hears that interim GM Jerry DiPoto is asking for two starters plus bullpen help in exchange for Dan Haren.


no, in fact brm was saying he is not better than any of the reds top 3, independent of asking rpice. then he said the high asking price made him want him less. and i didnt jump all over him for jsut this post. look at his others, they are generally terrible. which brings me to my next question. is there a way to ignore certain people?

also haren is under contract for next yr and wouldnt be a 3 month rental.

[brm7675]

lol then you arent a very knowledgeable baseball fan. half a season doesnt make or break a player.

No what I see is a pitcher who has had a decent season but not great who could be trending downward. I see our roster and like what I have and don't see how he would be that much of an improvement given what it would take to get him. Sorry if I am going to deal good talent I want someone with strong upside (Lee) who can be a difference maker. Haren is not a difference maker at this point with what we have.

[brm7675]

no, in fact brm was saying he is not better than any of the reds top 3, independent of asking rpice. then he said the high asking price made him want him less. and i didnt jump all over him for jsut this post. look at his others, they are generally terrible. which brings me to my next question. is there a way to ignore certain people?

also haren is under contract for next yr and wouldnt be a 3 month rental.

Right now, at this point, Bronson, Leake and Cueto are having overall better seasons, add to that the return of Edinison and I don't see Haren as a difference maker, and again you have issues with age, work load and such. So KTB, if you were GM I am guessing you would go after him, what are you willing to part with to get this "difference maker".

[Kiss the Baby00]

No what I see is a pitcher who has had a decent season but not great who could be trending downward. I see our roster and like what I have and don't see how he would be that much of an improvement given what it would take to get him. Sorry if I am going to deal good talent I want someone with strong upside (Lee) who can be a difference maker. Haren is not a difference maker at this point with what we have.

you make no sense. talk yourself in circles and backtrack on things you previously have said.

you dont want to trade our prospects for a pitcher like haren who "could be trending downward"

but you would do it for Lee.

hmmmmm.

Lee is 31, free agent at the end of the year and has a career era of 3.86, WHIP 1.27, 2.93 K/BB

Haren is 29, not a free agent until the end of next season, career era of 3.68, WHIP 1.19, 3.92 K/BB.

numbers dont lie, people do

[brm7675]

you make no sense. talk yourself in circles and backtrack on things you previously have said.

you dont want to trade our prospects for a pitcher like haren who "could be trending downward"

but you would do it for Lee.

hmmmmm.

Lee is 31, free agent at the end of the year and has a career era of 3.86, WHIP 1.27, 2.93 K/BB

Haren is 29, not a free agent until the end of next season, career era of 3.68, WHIP 1.19, 3.92 K/BB.

numbers dont lie, people do

Lee is a difference maker, Lee is an ACE. Plus the M's were not asking what the Dbacks are asking. Given where we stand with our SP right now, I am not going to trade for what we have, I am only going to trade if I can add a difference maker, similar to what Milwaukee did when they got CC. Like I said, Haren doesn't impress me as being better then what we have this season already, so unless the Dbacks are willing to take say Yonder and a couple of AA or A players, I am not interested and I hope neither is Walt.

[Kiss the Baby00]

Lee is a difference maker, Lee is an ACE. Plus the M's were not asking what the Dbacks are asking. Given where we stand with our SP right now, I am not going to trade for what we have, I am only going to trade if I can add a difference maker, similar to what Milwaukee did when they got CC. Like I said, Haren doesn't impress me as being better then what we have this season already, so unless the Dbacks are willing to take say Yonder and a couple of AA or A players, I am not interested and I hope neither is Walt.


its amazing. you completely ignore and disregard numbers that blatantly prove you are wrong. :rolleyes:

[brm7675]

its amazing. you completely ignore and disregard numbers that blatantly prove you are wrong. :rolleyes:

So you are saying Lee isn't an Ace, isn't a difference maker?

Again if you are so in love with Haren, what would you be willing to give up to get him?

[Vottomatic]

you make no sense. talk yourself in circles and backtrack on things you previously have said.

you dont want to trade our prospects for a pitcher like haren who "could be trending downward"

but you would do it for Lee.

hmmmmm.

Lee is 31, free agent at the end of the year and has a career era of 3.86, WHIP 1.27, 2.93 K/BB

Haren is 29, not a free agent until the end of next season, career era of 3.68, WHIP 1.19, 3.92 K/BB.

numbers dont lie, people do

Haren is not a Free Agent until either 2013 or 2014. He has a team option for '13 at his same pay rate. So he would be locked up for $12.75M in '11, '12, '13 (option). Link: http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=t6E4P6tV9b-L_V2AxQ-xA6w&output=html

Here's why I don't want Haren:

2006:
Before All-Star game: 3.52 ERA
After AS Game: 4.91 ERA

2007:
Before: 2.30 ERA
After: 4.15 ERA

2008:
Before: 2.72 ERA
After: 4.18 ERA

2009:
Before: 2.01 ERA
After: 4.62 ERA

2010:
Before: 4.36 ERA
After: ?????????

Link: http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/7172/splits;_ylt=Ar91zZdQqd6W5IZZOpn8C9GFCLcF?year=2010&type=Pitching

Those second half ERA's aren't atrocious, but clearly he has made his stats look better with good first halves. Does he get worn down? Maybe. But if the trend has been consistent since 2006, what is going to happen when he's already posted his worst first half ERA in a long time?

Just say NO to Dan Haren.

One more thing...........while you two childishly bicker and insult eachother...........here's some advice, stick to facts to back up your reasonings.

[Kiss the Baby00]

Haren is not a Free Agent until either 2013 or 2014. He has a team option for '13 at his same pay rate. So he would be locked up for $12.75M in '11, '12, '13 (option). Link: http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=t6E4P6tV9b-L_V2AxQ-xA6w&output=html

Here's why I don't want Haren:

2006:
Before All-Star game: 3.52 ERA
After AS Game: 4.91 ERA

2007:
Before: 2.30 ERA
After: 4.15 ERA

2008:
Before: 2.72 ERA
After: 4.18 ERA

2009:
Before: 2.01 ERA
After: 4.62 ERA

2010:
Before: 4.36 ERA
After: ?????????

Link: http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/7172/splits;_ylt=Ar91zZdQqd6W5IZZOpn8C9GFCLcF?year=2010&type=Pitching

Those second half ERA's aren't atrocious, but clearly he has made his stats look better with good first halves. Does he get worn down? Maybe. But if the trend has been consistent since 2006, what is going to happen when he's already posted his worst first half ERA in a long time?

Just say NO to Dan Haren.

One more thing...........while you two childishly bicker and insult eachother...........here's some advice, stick to facts to back up your reasonings.

this is a good post with facts to back it up. these are the posts i like to see. and i believe my posts are filled w stats to back up my reasoning.

[FlyerFanatic]

brm got owned in this thread. WOW

[brm7675]

this is a good post with facts to back it up. these are the posts i like to see. and i believe my posts are filled w stats to back up my reasoning.


Wait, according to you Haren is da man and worth getting, so which is it? Again whom would you be willing to give up to get this "difference" maker in your mind.:cool:

Plus really we are not basing our view on just ERA are we? Lets also not forget Haren has given up a few long balls, which is one of the reason people want Harang gone...

[Kiss the Baby00]

Wait, according to you Haren is da man and worth getting, so which is it? Again whom would you be willing to give up to get this "difference" maker in your mind.:cool:

Plus really we are not basing our view on just ERA are we? Lets also not forget Haren has given up a few long balls, which is one of the reason people want Harang gone...

vottomatic posted very revealing stats which i wasnt aware of before he posted. it makes me more hesitant to get him than before.

and i think i posted stats besides era which harens numbers were better than lee in every category. Haren over his career gives up 1.1 HR/9 while Lee gives up 1.0. I think the reason ppl want Harang out is more to do with his 5+ era not so much about giving up the HRs.

[brm7675]

vottomatic posted very revealing stats which i wasnt aware of before he posted. it makes me more hesitant to get him than before.

and i think i posted stats besides era which harens numbers were better than lee in every category. Haren over his career gives up 1.1 HR/9 while Lee gives up 1.0. I think the reason ppl want Harang out is more to do with his 5+ era not so much about giving up the HRs.

Judging a pitcher soley on ERA alone is pointless, there are a number of better other numbers to look at. Also if Haren is better then Lee, then why didn't the Rangers go after Haren? Why were teams pushing each other over to get Lee?

[1990REDS]

you make no sense. talk yourself in circles and backtrack on things you previously have said.

you dont want to trade our prospects for a pitcher like haren who "could be trending downward"

but you would do it for Lee.

hmmmmm.

Lee is 31, free agent at the end of the year and has a career era of 3.86, WHIP 1.27, 2.93 K/BB

Haren is 29, not a free agent until the end of next season, career era of 3.68, WHIP 1.19, 3.92 K/BB.

numbers dont lie, people do

this stat really surprises me. doesnt he currently have like a 15/1 Kto BB ratio? i dont follow the indians but man he really must have been garbage early in his career.

[Kiss the Baby00]

Judging a pitcher soley on ERA alone is pointless, there are a number of better other numbers to look at. Also if Haren is better then Lee, then why didn't the Rangers go after Haren? Why were teams pushing each other over to get Lee?


Im not sure if you missed it. aside from ERA, i also posted K/BB, WHIP, HR/9. not sure what else you are looking for. babip ?

[Krawhitham]

i cant take it anymore. you make the worst posts with the worst opinions. every single post you make i want to smash my face into my desk because it is always horrible

dan haren isnt any better than our top 3?

do you know who dan haren is?

3.68 career era
7.7 k/9
07 era 3.07
08 era 3.33
09 era 3.14

Bronson career era 4.22
Cueto career era 4.32
Volquez career era 4.37

Tell me how these 3 are better than dan haren? should be entertaining....

I know who Dan Haren is, he is a 1st half work horse who's numbers fall off a cliff after the All-Star break

2009
1st Half 2.01 ERA
2nd Half 4.62 ERA

2008
1st Half 2.72 ERA
2nd Half 4.18 ERA

2007
1st Half 2.30 ERA
2nd Half 4.15 ERA


He has a 4.36 ERA and a .283 BAA in the 1st half this season, what will his numbers be like in the 2nd half if they are this bad to start with?

We do not need a starter for the long haul we need a stud for this season. The pitching we have is enough for the long haul it is just young and on pitch counts

[Kiss the Baby00]

I know who Dan Haren is, he is a 1st half work horse who's numbers fall off a cliff after the All-Star break

2009
1st Half 2.01 ERA
2nd Half 4.62 ERA

2008
1st Half 2.72 ERA
2nd Half 4.18 ERA

2007
1st Half 2.30 ERA
2nd Half 4.15 ERA


He has a 4.36 ERA and a .283 BAA in the 1st half this season, what will his numbers be like in the 2nd half if they are this bad to start with?

We do not need a starter for the long haul we need a stud for this season. The pitching we have is enough for the long haul it is just young and on pitch counts

31 minutes too late. check out vottomatics post

[Krawhitham]

31 minutes too late. check out vottomatics post

Never made it to the 2nd page before I posted


OOPS

[brm7675]

For me it's simple, Haren is a good pitcher and in previous years I would have said go for it, but this isn't like past seasons. We have a very good SP rotation, and to add anyone into that mix I feel they have to be leaps and bounds better, because you are giving away your future. Given that money wise Haren is a good fit for the D-backs they are going to want HIGH return to let him go, I can't justify giving away High return for someone who isn't on the level of Lee or Oswalt or Halliday or CC and such.

[Kiss the Baby00]

For me it's simple, Haren is a good pitcher and in previous years I would have said go for it, but this isn't like past seasons. We have a very good SP rotation, and to add anyone into that mix I feel they have to be leaps and bounds better, because you are giving away your future. Given that money wise Haren is a good fit for the D-backs they are going to want HIGH return to let him go, I can't justify giving away High return for someone who isn't on the level of Lee or Oswalt or Halliday or CC and such.


i never said we should get haren. jsut that he is better than our #3 and has better career numbers than lee. I think we should get chris young or stephen drew

[brm7675]

i never said we should get haren. jsut that he is better than our #3 and has better career numbers than lee. I think we should get chris young or stephen drew

We have Orlando, why would we need to add a good young quality SS at this point?:p:

[The Voice of IH]

I agree with brm, Haren is not the answer for the Reds, the cost is too high, and he will now only clog up the rotation.

[CincyRed44]

I find it quite interesting what other teams think trading such and such player will get them. Talk amongst fan bases can be quite revealing. Take into account the Tigers are sniffing around Arizona for Dan Haren & Stephen Drew so of course the Diamondback faithful put in there request for a subsequent return.

Diamondbacks Receive:
SP – Rick Porcello
SP – Jacob Turner
OF – Brennan Boesch
2 other prospects

Tigers Receive:
SP – Dan Haren
SS – Stephen Drew

my guess is they would want a package from the Reds very similar

SP - Mike Leake
SP - Travis Wood
OF - Jay Bruce
SP - Matt Fairel
OF - Yorman Rodriquez or C - Devin Mesoraco or SS - Zack Cozart

If this is what they are wanting they can just keep on praying to the trade gods. There's no way I gut our system and team to acquire said "Ace."

[scott91575]

I find it quite interesting what other teams think trading such and such player will get them. Talk amongst fan bases can be quite revealing. Take into account the Tigers are sniffing around Arizona for Dan Haren & Stephen Drew so of course the Diamondback faithful put in there request for a subsequent return.

Diamondbacks Receive:
SP – Rick Porcello
SP – Jacob Turner
OF – Brennan Boesch
2 other prospects

Tigers Receive:
SP – Dan Haren
SS – Stephen Drew

my guess is they would want a package from the Reds very similar

SP - Mike Leake
SP - Travis Wood
OF - Jay Bruce
SP - Matt Fairel
OF - Yorman Rodriquez or C - Devin Mesoraco or SS - Zack Cozart

If this is what they are wanting they can just keep on praying to the trade gods. There's no way I gut our system and team to acquire said "Ace."

No freaking way the Tigers send Porcello and Boesch to Arizona. Boesch is untouchable. In the end it comes down to the best offer, and no way anyone has to beat a deal with Boesch because it is not happening.

[Vottomatic]

I hope the Reds stand pat. I don't see many answers out there and alot of teams are going to overpay. When they do, they'll be looking at a bleak future after decimating their minor league system or trading away decent major leaguers to go for it all.

Brewers did that with Sabathia a few years back, but didn't give that much up. It seems this year that teams unloading big contracts/good players are asking for the moon.

I say nah baby nah.

Stand pat and tinker with the roster in the offseason. Gradually changing my mind about all of this.

[lidspinner]

I hope the Reds stand pat. I don't see many answers out there and alot of teams are going to overpay. When they do, they'll be looking at a bleak future after decimating their minor league system or trading away decent major leaguers to go for it all.

Brewers did that with Sabathia a few years back, but didn't give that much up. It seems this year that teams unloading big contracts/good players are asking for the moon.

I say nah baby nah.

Stand pat and tinker with the roster in the offseason. Gradually changing my mind about all of this.


I will also say that m mind is gradually trending the other way....BUT, I still would kick the tires to see what they want...and I am sure Walt has already done that.

[Vottomatic]

I will also say that m mind is gradually trending the other way....BUT, I still would kick the tires to see what they want...and I am sure Walt has already done that.

Definitely kick the tires.

I have to say that Walt, IMHO, has never gotten the raw end of a deal. I don't see him overpaying.

Many of us cried last year when he traded EE and especially Zach Stewart for Rolen. We all look stupid now. Including me. I liked the trade but had higher hopes for Stewart, who is having just an average minor league season this year.

Unless he can pull off the big deal, I say stand pat.

I'm not that interested in Haren, unless he came as a steal. I'm not interested in Oswalt at all after reading that he wants his $16M option picked up by the team he's traded to. I'm really pretty happy with what we got, starting pitching-wise. Not saying we don't need an ace. But I think we got good pitchers from 2 thru 5. I just don't think Haren is much better than what we got. Oswalt can be at times, but he's too pricey. Cliff Lee would have been ideal, but he would have been a rental. Boo-hoo, forget that.

The aces I'm interested in aren't available. I would love to send a huge package of prospects to the Marlins for Josh Johnson. He's under contract thru 2013 ($7.75M - '11, $13.75M - '12, $13.75M - '13). Pretty reasonable pricing for an ace considering Sabathia's salary and that Cliff Lee will probably get about $20M per season from the Yanks. Carpenter will end up making in the $18M-$20M from the Cards eventually. Carpenter made $14.5M this year and makes $15M in '11. So $13.75M for Josh Johnson, who currently leads all NL starting pitchers with a 1.70 ERA, is VERY reasonable. Plus, he's only 26 years old.

Can you imagine a rotation of:

Josh Johnson
Johnny Cueto
Edison Volquez
Mike Leake
Travis Wood or Homer Bailey?

If we were able to acquire Johnson, I'd be fine letting Arroyo walk.

I also wish we could acquire Joakim Soria from KC, and obviously unload Cordero. I know both are pretty much impossible. No team would be willing to take on Cordero's contract. And KC more than likely won't deal Soria.

But these are the unlikely deals I wish we could make. And because they're so unlikely, I'd just as well stand pat. The guys who are available don't interest me. But there are teams who are out of it who still aren't willing to part with certain players, and that's where it ends for me.

[Hondo]

Definitely kick the tires.

I have to say that Walt, IMHO, has never gotten the raw end of a deal. I don't see him overpaying.

Many of us cried last year when he traded EE and especially Zach Stewart for Rolen. We all look stupid now. Including me. I liked the trade but had higher hopes for Stewart, who is having just an average minor league season this year.

Unless he can pull off the big deal, I say stand pat.

I'm not that interested in Haren, unless he came as a steal. I'm not interested in Oswalt at all after reading that he wants his $16M option picked up by the team he's traded to. I'm really pretty happy with what we got, starting pitching-wise. Not saying we don't need an ace. But I think we got good pitchers from 2 thru 5. I just don't think Haren is much better than what we got. Oswalt can be at times, but he's too pricey. Cliff Lee would have been ideal, but he would have been a rental. Boo-hoo, forget that.

The aces I'm interested in aren't available. I would love to send a huge package of prospects to the Marlins for Josh Johnson. He's under contract thru 2013 ($7.75M - '11, $13.75M - '12, $13.75M - '13). Pretty reasonable pricing for an ace considering Sabathia's salary and that Cliff Lee will probably get about $20M per season from the Yanks. Carpenter will end up making in the $18M-$20M from the Cards eventually. Carpenter made $14.5M this year and makes $15M in '11. So $13.75M for Josh Johnson, who currently leads all NL starting pitchers with a 1.70 ERA, is VERY reasonable. Plus, he's only 26 years old.

Can you imagine a rotation of:

Josh Johnson
Johnny Cueto
Edison Volquez
Mike Leake
Travis Wood or Homer Bailey?

If we were able to acquire Johnson, I'd be fine letting Arroyo walk.

I also wish we could acquire Joakim Soria from KC, and obviously unload Cordero. I know both are pretty much impossible. No team would be willing to take on Cordero's contract. And KC more than likely won't deal Soria.

But these are the unlikely deals I wish we could make. And because they're so unlikely, I'd just as well stand pat. The guys who are available don't interest me. But there are teams who are out of it who still aren't willing to part with certain players, and that's where it ends for me.

I like your ideas about landing Johnson. The only problem is the Marlins are trying to get that Stadium Built... They signed Ramirez and Johnson as Cornerstones of the future.

[FlyerFanatic]

haren to the angels