View Full Version : University of Kentucky Men's Basketball - 6th edition
Javy Pornstache
12-04-2010, 04:37 PM
Yeah I didn't like how the game was officiated, but the fouls were called almost evenly up until the last 30 seconds. The final tally was 26 called on UK, and 20 on UNC. But considering 3-4 of those were intentional fouls in the final 30 seconds, it was essentially a pretty evenly called game.
That said, I hate the fouls that were being called. Especially when there were some flat out collisions that were let go.
Not even close to evenly called, Bruti. The final number of fouls are irrelevant when you talk about the INCONSISTENCY of the fouls. Kentucky running over a North Carolina player under the rim, is a charge on Kentucky. The same exact play, the same exact contact, but a North Carolina running over a Kentucky player under the rim, and suddenly the NBA rule is in effect where the defender is tagged with the foul because he can't stand under the rim. All of UK's bigs (who all fouled out, and NOT at the end of the game on intentional fouls) would be called for the tickiest of tack plays, while Zeller and Henson mugged many times with no calls. I don't ever make excuses for officiating, but this was a ludicrously inconsistent game. That said, UK certainly could've done some things to help themselves win that they didn't do.
Not even close to evenly called, Bruti. The final number of fouls are irrelevant when you talk about the INCONSISTENCY of the fouls. Kentucky running over a North Carolina player under the rim, is a charge on Kentucky. The same exact play, the same exact contact, but a North Carolina running over a Kentucky player under the rim, and suddenly the NBA rule is in effect where the defender is tagged with the foul because he can't stand under the rim. All of UK's bigs (who all fouled out, and NOT at the end of the game on intentional fouls) would be called for the tickiest of tack plays, while Zeller and Henson mugged many times with no calls. I don't ever make excuses for officiating, but this was a ludicrously inconsistent game. That said, UK certainly could've done some things to help themselves win that they didn't do.
Good post, JP.
Check this out, not sure I've ever seen this before... http://kentucky.rivals.com/showmsg.asp?fid=1383&tid=151453461&mid=151453461&sid=888&style=2
UNC's last field goal came at the 6:46 mark. Their last 14 points came from the FT line, only 3 of those were from intentional fouls.
I fully agree UK still could have won the game, but I'm proud of how they fought through the adversity they faced today to the best of their abilities. Would LOVE to play them on a neutral court.
Doron Lamb is a BALLER. Love that kid. Got moxy too. Stepped up and nailed his FTs.
Brutus
12-04-2010, 05:10 PM
Not even close to evenly called, Bruti. The final number of fouls are irrelevant when you talk about the INCONSISTENCY of the fouls. Kentucky running over a North Carolina player under the rim, is a charge on Kentucky. The same exact play, the same exact contact, but a North Carolina running over a Kentucky player under the rim, and suddenly the NBA rule is in effect where the defender is tagged with the foul because he can't stand under the rim. All of UK's bigs (who all fouled out, and NOT at the end of the game on intentional fouls) would be called for the tickiest of tack plays, while Zeller and Henson mugged many times with no calls. I don't ever make excuses for officiating, but this was a ludicrously inconsistent game. That said, UK certainly could've done some things to help themselves win that they didn't do.
Unfortunately it's nearly impossible to have a 'consistent' game when officiating basketball. I've been watching hoops since I was a kid and I've never seen a game that fans thought was consistent, or at least, both sides thought it was consistent. It just doesn't happen.
The only hope is that the number of whistles during the game are relatively fair. No one can complain about fouls being called when it's evenly called. The implication here by the original poster was that Kentucky didn't get a "fair" whistle. Considering the foul disparity was almost non-existent until the fouls at the end, it's hard to argue against being "fair."
I'm sure Carolina fans could pick a few bad calls or non-calls on Kentucky too. Were there bad calls? Sure. Uneven calls in a vacuum? Absolutely! And I didn't like how it was officiated. But it was fair.
Razor Shines
12-04-2010, 05:41 PM
Not even close to evenly called, Bruti. The final number of fouls are irrelevant when you talk about the INCONSISTENCY of the fouls. Kentucky running over a North Carolina player under the rim, is a charge on Kentucky. The same exact play, the same exact contact, but a North Carolina running over a Kentucky player under the rim, and suddenly the NBA rule is in effect where the defender is tagged with the foul because he can't stand under the rim. All of UK's bigs (who all fouled out, and NOT at the end of the game on intentional fouls) would be called for the tickiest of tack plays, while Zeller and Henson mugged many times with no calls. I don't ever make excuses for officiating, but this was a ludicrously inconsistent game. That said, UK certainly could've done some things to help themselves win that they didn't do.
As someone who doesn't care for either team, I can say it was sightly edged toward UNC. I didn't think it was nearly as bad as you described though.
WVRed
12-05-2010, 01:11 AM
Didn't get to watch the game (switched allegiances in football for the day to WVU), but I did DVR it so I am going to watch it tomorrow evening.
I did hear it was 5 on 10 though, Kentucky vs UNC, three refs, and two CBS announcers.
Brutus
12-05-2010, 05:46 AM
Didn't get to watch the game (switched allegiances in football for the day to WVU), but I did DVR it so I am going to watch it tomorrow evening.
I did hear it was 5 on 10 though, Kentucky vs UNC, three refs, and two CBS announcers.
It wasn't as one-sided officiating as UK fans are making it seem. Sorry, it just wasn't.
But I do agree that Gus Johnson was going gaga, it seemed, over every UNC shot.
Didn't get to watch the game (switched allegiances in football for the day to WVU), but I did DVR it so I am going to watch it tomorrow evening.
I did hear it was 5 on 10 though, Kentucky vs UNC, three refs, and two CBS announcers.
We got a bad whistle, but it's par for the course playing at Chapel Hill. I just wish they gave us that same whistle in Rupp.
Bad calls of note: The charge call on Brandon Knight versus Zeller. OBVIOUS block. Huge call, b/c it takes one away from BK and adds to Zeller.
- The offensive rebound by Jorts and subsequent raping by Zeller that was not called... it would have fouled Zeller out and UK probably wins the game if that happens...
- There was a play where the ball went out of bounds and the UNC player saved it underneath the basket to Zeller who got fouled by Jorts (wasn't really a foul, Zeller just fell over and didn't get a whistle until the ref saw the ball miss the hoop)... well, the man saving the ball was clearly out of bounds and it happened right in front of the ref but NO CALL http://i809.photobucket.com/albums/zz16/jallen1414/DSCN1785.jpg
- Zeller's first foul drawn on Jorts in the opening minute was an obvious flop
There are a couple others but those were the most blatant...
The nice thing is that even UNC fans are willing to admit they got a favorable whistle... I hate that baby blue, but they are a pretty classy fanbase overall...
One thing that is pathetic though, they had 1100 empty seats for that game. That is weak! One reason I pick UK as the greatest program of all-time, our fan support is unmatched. We put 24k in Rupp for a midweek game versus Boston University, UNC can't fill it up for a saturday game versus Kentucky? Really almost couldn't believe it.
WVRed
12-06-2010, 03:31 PM
http://kentuckysportsradio.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/freedom1.jpg
Watched the game last night and while I will agree the officiating was bad, UK had more than one opportunity to win the game. I think if Doron Lamb's floater had went in with about 30 seconds to go, UK would have been up by 3 and the outcome may have been different.
Also, with Guy Davis and Clark Kellog, I really wouldn't shed a tear if CBS didn't carry another UK game. You know BS when you CBS.
cumberlandreds
12-06-2010, 03:57 PM
UK's long stretch in the 2nd half without a FG cost them the game. You can't do that on the road and expect to win. Bad calls, no doubt, in this game but I won't pin the loss on the officials.
Cats better come ready to play weds in Ruppdom Hall because ND looks to be a pretty damn good team... in at #23 in the latest coach's poll (Cats drop to #16 ... About where they belong at this point, IMO.)
Sea Ray
12-06-2010, 04:42 PM
Cats better come ready to play weds in Ruppdom Hall because ND looks to be a pretty damn good team... in at #23 in the latest coach's poll (Cats drop to #16 ... About where they belong at this point, IMO.)
Tennessee's at #13 (#11 in AP). Is that about where they should be?
If these early scores are any indication, it looks to be an abysmal year in the SEC.
dabvu2498
12-07-2010, 01:35 AM
Tennessee's at #13 (#11 in AP). Is that about where they should be?
If these early scores are any indication, it looks to be an abysmal year in the SEC.
The West has been miserable. Ole Miss lost at home vs. Dayton. LSU lost at home to Nichols St. Mississippi St. lost at home to Florida Atlantic. Arky lost at home to UAB. Bama's had 3 bad losses. Auburn may have the worst RPI in the country.
The SEC may be a 4 bid league. Maybe 3 if Vandy or UF slips.
Florida was, as many predicted, overrated.
WVRed
12-07-2010, 10:48 AM
The West has been miserable. Ole Miss lost at home vs. Dayton. LSU lost at home to Nichols St. Mississippi St. lost at home to Florida Atlantic. Arky lost at home to UAB. Bama's had 3 bad losses. Auburn may have the worst RPI in the country.
The SEC may be a 4 bid league. Maybe 3 if Vandy or UF slips.
Florida was, as many predicted, overrated.
Tennessee has been good so far, but the real fun will begin when Pearl begins his suspension.
They showed a picture of Auburn's new arena during the basketball game on Saturday night immediately following the SEC championship. I think the parents may have made the trip and that was about it.
Sea Ray
12-07-2010, 10:58 AM
Tennessee has been good so far, but the real fun will begin when Pearl begins his suspension.
Yep #2 in the RPI. Unfortunately they tend to open seasons better than they finish. In other words, I don't expect such excellence to last. As always it'll be a battle to make the Sweet 16.
WVRed
12-08-2010, 01:33 PM
Big news announced today. Kentucky has agreed to participate in the "Champions Classic", a new event that involves UK, Duke, Michigan State, and Kansas.
http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/news/story?id=5898231
2011(MSG-New York):
Kentucky vs Kansas
Michigan State vs Duke
2012(Georgia Dome-Atlanta)
Kentucky vs Duke
Michigan State vs Kansas
2013(United Center-Chicago)
Kentucky vs Michigan State
Duke vs Kansas
dabvu2498
12-08-2010, 08:26 PM
Big news announced today. Kentucky has agreed to participate in the "Champions Classic", a new event that involves UK, Duke, Michigan State, and Kansas.
http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/news/story?id=5898231
2011(MSG-New York):
Kentucky vs Kansas
Michigan State vs Duke
2012(Georgia Dome-Atlanta)
Kentucky vs Duke
Michigan State vs Kansas
2013(United Center-Chicago)
Kentucky vs Michigan State
Duke vs Kansas
I miss the fact that those big time out of conference games don't happen in Rupp anymore. Other than UNC, Louisville, and Indiana, when was the last time a "major" nonconference team came to Rupp?
Heck, their best nonconference "home" opponent is Notre Dame and that's going down in Louisville.
The folks paying big coin for season tickets can't be all pleased about that.
WVRed
12-08-2010, 09:27 PM
I miss the fact that those big time out of conference games don't happen in Rupp anymore. Other than UNC, Louisville, and Indiana, when was the last time a "major" nonconference team came to Rupp?
Heck, their best nonconference "home" opponent is Notre Dame and that's going down in Louisville.
The folks paying big coin for season tickets can't be all pleased about that.
Michigan State and Kansas have both came to Rupp, as has UCLA. Duke refuses to schedule a home and home and would rather the games be played in Durham or NYC (pro-Duke crowd).
dabvu2498
12-08-2010, 10:24 PM
Michigan State and Kansas have both came to Rupp, as has UCLA. Duke refuses to schedule a home and home and would rather the games be played in Durham or NYC (pro-Duke crowd).
Michigan State hasn't been there since 2002. Kansas 2005. UCLA? 1961.
This made me chuckle...
I got a kick out of the UNC fan that suggested that they create another one with UCLA, Louisville and Indiana.
They could call that the second-fiddle classic.
UNC -- second fiddle to DUke
Louisville -- second fiddle to UK
Indiana -- second fiddle to Purdue
UCLA -- second fiddle to ... well, they just aren't good
Nice win versus ND.
Little Hansbrough is just as annoying as his big brother.
All that 'mean mugging' in the first half was something else...
Razor Shines
12-09-2010, 05:18 AM
This made me chuckle...
IU second fiddle to Purdue? Not bloody likely. They may be a little better right now, but they haven't ever won the NCAA tournament and haven't been to a final four since 1980. IU has been in the national championship game more recently than Purdue has been in the elite 8. second fidde......
RiverRat13
12-09-2010, 09:12 AM
IU second fiddle to Purdue? Not bloody likely. They may be a little better right now, but they haven't ever won the NCAA tournament and haven't been to a final four since 1980. IU has been in the national championship game more recently than Purdue has been in the elite 8. second fidde......
Pretty much ditto with regards to Duke and Carolina. UNC has more NCAA titles and a much better head-to-head record. The greatest coach in Duke's history still has a losing record to North Carolina.
And the "Second Fiddle" series would have a collective 22 National Titles to the other group's 16.
RiverRat13
12-09-2010, 09:23 AM
I miss the fact that those big time out of conference games don't happen in Rupp anymore. Other than UNC, Louisville, and Indiana, when was the last time a "major" nonconference team came to Rupp?
Heck, their best nonconference "home" opponent is Notre Dame and that's going down in Louisville.
The folks paying big coin for season tickets can't be all pleased about that.
I couldn't agree more. All of these non-conference games in neutral locations are great, but I abhor this trend of taking big-time games off of college campuses. It's freakin' COLLEGE basketball! Students should be the one who benefit from top match-ups.
WVRed
12-09-2010, 10:21 AM
Michigan State hasn't been there since 2002. Kansas 2005. UCLA? 1961.
I thought for some reason UCLA did a home and home in the past decade, turns out it was the Wooden Classic in Anaheim.
IU second fiddle to Purdue? Not bloody likely. They may be a little better right now, but they haven't ever won the NCAA tournament and haven't been to a final four since 1980. IU has been in the national championship game more recently than Purdue has been in the elite 8. second fidde......
NOBODY PUTS BABY (Creanie) IN A CORNER!!
"A Little Better" - Hehe, you really hate Purdue, huh?
BTW: I think the original poster was only talking about their current station in college bball, not their history. (Although either measure still works for the UK-UL comparison. ;) )
Razor Shines
12-09-2010, 02:15 PM
NOBODY PUTS BABY (Creanie) IN A CORNER!!
"A Little Better" - Hehe, you really hate Purdue, huh?
BTW: I think the original poster was only talking about their current station in college bball, not their history. (Although either measure still works for the UK-UL comparison. ;) )
If Purdue was in a stretch of making deep runs in the tourney I wouldn't have a problem with it, but They haven't even been to the elite 8 since 2000. Yes, Purdue is better right now, but that's not really saying much.
If Purdue was in a stretch of making deep runs in the tourney I wouldn't have a problem with it, but They haven't even been to the elite 8 since 2000. Yes, Purdue is better right now, but that's not really saying much.
Losing Hummel was just devastating for them. I thought they had a great chance to make the FF and even win it all with Hummel.
Hearing Kyrie Irving may be done for the year...
Razor Shines
12-09-2010, 02:40 PM
Losing Hummel was just devastating for them. I thought they had a great chance to make the FF and even win it all with Hummel.
Hearing Kyrie Irving may be done for the year...
Yeah, if he really is done then that takes Duke down a peg from being the clear cut best team in the country.
RiverRat13
12-09-2010, 03:05 PM
Hearing Kyrie Irving may be done for the year...
He does have Duke Medical right there to get him back!
I remember when Carlos Boozer was supposedly out for the year. I remember when Elton Brand was supposedly out for the year. I remember Chris Duhon's "courage" playing with injured ribs. Both K and Roy have a history of being a touch over-dramatic when it comes to their injured players.
Yeah I fully expect him to be back by ACC play... those toe injuries can be tricky though.
Puffy
12-09-2010, 05:32 PM
Irving will be back this year. But I imagine this will be an injury that lingers all year. Of that, I have no sympathy for Dook.
It's funny, some younger fans don't even 'get' why IU is a rival of Kentucky's...
I'm guessing some of our more 'seasoned' fans in this thread don't have that problem. :lol:
Really looking forward to the game tomorrow. I've actually been offered tickets... hope I can work it out to go.
Hoosier Red
12-10-2010, 02:36 PM
It's funny, some younger fans don't even 'get' why IU is a rival of Kentucky's...
I'm guessing some of our more 'seasoned' fans in this thread don't have that problem. :lol:
Really looking forward to thegame tomorrow. I've actually been offered tickets... hope I can work it out to go.
I'm predicting a double digit UK win. I'm thinking it will be 10+ at half, IU makes a mini run to get it to within shouting distance, and then can't keep up in the final 6 or 7 minutes.
Do any of you Hoosiers read/post on the PEEGS site? Man those guys are just eaten up all to DEATH with UK over there... :eek:
Do any of you Hoosiers read/post on the PEEGS site? Man those guys are just eaten up all to DEATH with UK over there... :eek:
I stay away from that site for the most part.
I see a 15-20 point loss tomorrow for IU.
What about Kent Sterling, BRM? That guy takes the cake. :lol:
I think you're probably close... I don't like predicting big wins against rivals, ever, however.
I'll be thrilled if they can just keep it competitive for a decent chunk of the game.
Hoosier Red
12-10-2010, 02:54 PM
What about Kent Sterling, BRM? That guy takes the cake. :lol:
I think you're probably close... I don't like predicting big wins against rivals, ever, however.
Peegs is good for inside info, but the message board is just idiot upon idiot.
For good analysis, I tend to go to www.crimsoncast.com. The best writer on that site only writes about once a week though and he's often times writing about football or soccer instead of basketball.
:D
Well, you know Crean will have them playing hard...
Haha, HR, wonder who you're talking about? :D
Okay, let me ask this: What has to happen tomorrow for IU to win? Watford does a decent job of containing T. Jones for one...
Hoosier Red
12-10-2010, 03:07 PM
Haha, HR, wonder who you're talking about? :D
Okay, let me ask this: What has to happen tomorrow for IU to win? Watford does a decent job of containing T. Jones for one...
1. Pritchard, Elston, or Capobianco would have to play above their heads and get Kentucky's frontcourt into foul trouble. 2. Watford would have to play well and force Jones to expend a lot of energy guarding him. 3. Creek, Jones, and Hulls would all have to be hitting shots. 4.And they'd have to avoid turning the ball over.
In order of likely happening, I'd put it 3,2,1,4
Razor Shines
12-10-2010, 03:16 PM
Haha, HR, wonder who you're talking about? :D
Okay, let me ask this: What has to happen tomorrow for IU to win? Watford does a decent job of containing T. Jones for one...
I agree pretty much with HR. UK will have to really struggle and get into foul trouble.
IU would really have to be raining in the 3 ball as well. Hulls would have to hit 8 or 9.
They couldn't guard R. Jackson from BC and he didn't have much of an inside presence.
I think UK will win by 20 or so.
IU deserves to win this game!! UK players look like they'd rather be somewhere else.
Thank God Liggins came to play!! :eek:
Razor Shines
12-11-2010, 08:14 PM
So Liggins pushes off then knocks Hulls back again and draws the foul but Oladipo drives and gets hit and that's good D? All right cool.
Liggins and JORTS!!! :eek:
Easily the best game of Jorts' career.
Razor Shines
12-11-2010, 08:21 PM
We got a bad whistle, but it's par for the course playing at Chapel Hill. I just wish they gave us that same whistle in Rupp.
.
Did IU drive the ball more than a couple times in the 2nd half? Seems to me they settled for jump shots while Kentucky was looking to drive every possession. Add in superior athletes and it's a recipe for free throw discrepancy.
Also, our two best players were saddled with foul trouble for much of the game... that helped IU keep it close.
I thought the defensive intensity from UK was like night and day first half to second.
What about the call that fouled out Darius Miller? Phantom call if I've ever seen one.
IU deserves a bunch of credit though, they played their hearts out.
If Liggins and Jorts hadn't brought it today in a big way, UK loses.
Brutus
12-11-2010, 09:04 PM
Did IU drive the ball more than a couple times in the 2nd half? Seems to me they settled for jump shots while Kentucky was looking to drive every possession. Add in superior athletes and it's a recipe for free throw discrepancy.
Also, our two best players were saddled with foul trouble for much of the game... that helped IU keep it close.
I thought the defensive intensity from UK was like night and day first half to second.
What about the call that fouled out Darius Miller? Phantom call if I've ever seen one.
I can't believe you're bringing up officiating. Goodness. Indiana had 30 fouls called on them, 17 for Kentucky. Strip the last four minutes, and it was still 26-17.
And for the record, Kentucky actually took more 3-pointers than did Indiana (18-15).
But hey, don't let the facts get in the way of a good story.
Now to those UK fans that want to discuss basketball in reality world...
Kentucky won the game because they tightened the defense the last 8 minutes. Indiana was previously getting some easy backdoor looks, and UK took that away. I was impressive with how aggressive they were down the stretch. Plus, loved the way Liggins was using his size advantage on Hulls to get inside.
UK played well when it counted. They earned a tough win.
But typical of some people to make officiating a convenient excuse.
Someone on another board made a good point that Jorts' play seems to have increased in quality since Kanter was allowed to resume practicing with the team. I don't think those two things are necessarily unrelated.
Coach Cal post-game: "We won the game over 5 minutes tonight. Offensively AND Defensively."
Agree with Coach. I do think our defense was really clicking for closer to 10 minutes rather than 5.
"They could've, maybe should've, won the game tonight."
Agreed!
"What about Josh Harrellson tonight?"
:clap:
"When you win, enjoy it."
:clap: :clap: :clap:
Razor Shines
12-11-2010, 10:04 PM
Did IU drive the ball more than a couple times in the 2nd half? Seems to me they settled for jump shots while Kentucky was looking to drive every possession. Add in superior athletes and it's a recipe for free throw discrepancy.
Also, our two best players were saddled with foul trouble for much of the game... that helped IU keep it close.
I thought the defensive intensity from UK was like night and day first half to second.
What about the call that fouled out Darius Miller? Phantom call if I've ever seen one.
I'm not saying you won because of the officials. UK was just better, but they got away with more than IU did. You did get that favorable whistle at home.
I'm not saying you won because of the officials. UK was just better, but they got away with more than IU did. You did get that favorable whistle at home.
I agree we got a favorable whistle overall. When the UK offense is firing on all cylinders, however, you should see three things: 1) Layups/Attacking the rim 2) Free throws 3) Open 3s.
I wasn't sure if Crean was the man for the job at IU, to be honest. After seeing him and his team today live for 40 minutes for the first time this season, I am much more of a believer. He is a quality coach and obviously the recruiting is coming around. He is getting maximum potential from his team, IMO.
I really like Hulls.
Razor Shines
12-11-2010, 10:17 PM
I agree we got a favorable whistle overall. When the UK offense is firing on all cylinders, however, you should see three things: 1) Layups at the rim 2) Free throws 3) Open 3s.
I wasn't sure if Crean was the man for the job at IU, to be honest. After seeing him and his team today live for 40 minutes for the first time this season, I am much more of a believer. He is a quality coach and obviously the recruiting is coming around. He is getting maximum potential from his team, IMO.
I really like Hulls.
Yeah, I think he is getting the most out of their talent.
Ultimately the score ended up where I thought it would but I thought Kentucky's flurry would come at the start of the second half. Earlier in the thread I meant Lamb when I said Jones. I thought the IU guards would struggle with guarding Knight and Lamb, but it was really Liggins and Knight that gave them the problems.
Are you ready for your av? ;)
Razor Shines
12-11-2010, 10:40 PM
Are you ready for your av? ;)
Lets have it.
http://new.kentuckysportsradio.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/josh2.jpg
caption: JORTS Creaned Us!!
;)
:roll:
Now... Get posting!! ;)
Razor Shines
12-11-2010, 10:56 PM
Wow, that's rough.
Wow, that's rough.
LOL I wanted it to be funny but not mean-spirited. You're a good dude, just bad taste in teams you root for in college bball. ;)
Razor Shines
12-11-2010, 11:02 PM
Well you've got a 168 hour victory dance.
Topcat
12-13-2010, 12:31 AM
Just wanted to jump in and say the Ville just got Rodney Purvis :)
WVRed
12-13-2010, 10:43 AM
Just wanted to jump in and say the Ville just got Rodney Purvis :)
Yeah, we've gotta let you guys have one every now and then. :)
Still too early to look at 2012 though. Players move up and down the rankings by then and some of the commitments don't stick (like Louisville's class last year). Purvis will though, unless Tim Fuller somehow leaves between now and then.
Hoosier Red
12-13-2010, 10:56 AM
Weird. I thought I had posted in either this one or the other one, but apparantly not. Didn't want WMR to think I was ducking him though. :)
IU's about 75-80% of the way there, which showed tonight because they hung with UK for about 75-80% of the game.
I said before that absent a win, this game wouldn't tell us anything about the Hoosiers. Coming close really doesn't make a big difference, and if IU loses to any of the remaining out of conference teams, any good feelings will be nullified.
Last year IU sandwiched its two "best losses"(At Illinois 72-70, Vs. Purdue 78-75) with two of its ugliest losses (at home to Iowa by 15 and at Northwestern by 17.)
Still if we take anything positive out of it, Christian Watford played great against legitimate big men. If he can legitimately play the four, the team is 10x better than last year.
I had decided that it would only be fair to give Creek through the pre-conference schedule to 1) Trust his knee and 2) Incorporate himself into the flow of the offense better. He and VJIII both take bad shots at times, but a lot of that has to do with the fact that the offense at various points in their careers has been "4 guys stand around and watch VJIII or Maurice do something."
For IU fans of any length, this is what we call the "Bracey offense."
WVRed
12-14-2010, 09:55 PM
On a side note, Matt Jones has left KSR to become a writer for CBS Sports. Thomas Beisner is now the head. I've always enjoyed Beisner and Drew Franklin's writings over there and always thought Jones was trying for nothing more than to make a name for himself.
Off-nights don't get much better than that for KENTUCKY. :lol:
Fun little video here......
YouTube - Marquis Teague Has Crazy Handles, Dimes, And Athleticism; Best PG In '11? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CkoP_fx7_4o)
dabvu2498
12-15-2010, 08:30 AM
Off-nights don't get much better than that for KENTUCKY. :lol:
Typical Vols. Look like a Final 4 team on Saturday, lose at home to Oakland Monday.
That said, Oakland is nothing to sneeze at. 4 days ago they played Michigan State to a 1 point game and Ketih Benson would probably start at all 12 SEC schools.
joshnky
12-15-2010, 08:56 AM
Typical Vols. Look like a Final 4 team on Saturday, lose at home to Oakland Monday.
That said, Oakland is nothing to sneeze at. 4 days ago they played Michigan State to a 1 point game and Ketih Benson would probably start at all 12 SEC schools.
Kind of the same deal for Louisville as well. When they're not able to get out in transition they struggle and that was what happened last night. While they're not high-profile, Drexel is still a quality team and very strong defensively. Sagarin has then 29th, three spots behind UNC and RealTimeRPI had them at 51 prior to yesterday, only one spot behind Washington.
cumberlandreds
12-15-2010, 08:57 AM
Typical Vols. Look like a Final 4 team on Saturday, lose at home to Oakland Monday.
That said, Oakland is nothing to sneeze at. 4 days ago they played Michigan State to a 1 point game and Ketih Benson would probably start at all 12 SEC schools.
Oakland and Drexel may be good teams but Tennessee and UL should not be losing to them at home. On a neutral court I can understand but at home should be unacceptable if you are going to be a top team.
Kind of the same deal for Louisville as well. When they're not able to get out in transition they struggle and that was what happened last night. While they're not high-profile, Drexel is still a quality team and very strong defensively. Sagarin has then 29th, three spots behind UNC and RealTimeRPI had them at 51 prior to yesterday, only one spot behind Washington.
The same Drexel team that lost their starting PG from last year and lost to UK by almost 50? It's funny you would try to compare the Drexel loss to losing AT UNC in a rivalry game or even bring up U-Dub, who UK beat on a neutral floor.
UL has no go to scorer. Hairbrush is probably their best option and that says a lot right there... and what has happened to Mike Marra? Cold doesn't begin to describe it..... dude is like the Antarctic right now... all that being said, I full expect them all to have the games of their lives versus Kentucky in 2 weeks. :D
Pitino's post-game press conference was classic Pitino... 2 minutes in and he gets a question he doesn't like and storms out... not before delivering the good ole 'inadvertent' middle finger head scratch to the reporter who asked the question that pissed him off so badly.
Honestly, how can Purvis look at Siva's complete lack of development and stick with his UL verbal? I'll be very surprised if it sticks. The best point guard Pitino has put into the NBA is Sebastian Telfair.
dabvu2498
12-15-2010, 09:21 AM
Oakland and Drexel may be good teams but Tennessee and UL should not be losing to them at home. On a neutral court I can understand but at home should be unacceptable if you are going to be a top team.
Can't disagree with that. But Oakland did come within a point of Michigan St. last time out.
Oakland has had a bunch of stinkers too... pretty enigmatic team, IMO.
dabvu2498
12-15-2010, 09:25 AM
The same Drexel team that lost their starting PG from last year and lost to UK by almost 50?
This year's Drexel team is exponetially better than last years. Not that they should be beating Louisville... but still, they are better.
This year's Drexel team is exponetially better than last years. Not that they should be beating Louisville... but still, they are better.
They looked pretty horrible to me... they kept trying to give the game to UL but UL just refused to take it.
dabvu2498
12-15-2010, 09:27 AM
Oakland has had a bunch of stinkers too... pretty enigmatic team, IMO.
They have at least one future NBA player on their roster. Not sure we can say that about Louisville.
cumberlandreds
12-15-2010, 09:27 AM
Can't disagree with that. But Oakland did come within a point of Michigan St. last time out.
It was on a neurtral court too,Detroit. Oakland is better than Drexel but still......
They have at least one future NBA player on their roster. Not sure we can say that about Louisville.
They were picked 5th in that horrible conference they play in, correct? Do you know where they were picked to finish last year? (I don't, honestly asking here.)
Who's the sure-fire NBA player on their roster?
dabvu2498
12-15-2010, 09:35 AM
They were picked 5th in that horrible conference they play in, correct? Do you know where they were picked to finish last year? (I don't, honestly asking here.)
Who's the sure-fire NBA player on their roster?
http://www.nbadraft.net/players/keith-benson
http://www.nbadraft.net/2011mock_draft
http://www.nbadraft.net/players/keith-benson
http://www.nbadraft.net/2011mock_draft
Hmm, draftexpress, which I like a lot better than draft.net, has him going in the 2nd round with the 20th pick... Kid's a good player, no doubt, but he's more of a fringe NBA prospect than any sort of a sure-thing. JMO of course, could be totally wrong.
dabvu2498
12-15-2010, 09:44 AM
They were picked 5th in that horrible conference they play in, correct? Do you know where they were picked to finish last year? (I don't, honestly asking here.)
Who's the sure-fire NBA player on their roster?
I think we're bouncing back and forth between Oakland and Drexel here. So I'll clarify my position...
Oakland: Won the Summit League (17-1) and conference tourney last year. Have a future NBA center on their team in Keith Benson.
Drexel: Much improved from last year. Don't care where they were picked to finish. (Don't forget, UF was picked to win the SEC East.) They were 3-5 this time last year. They're 7-1 now against a very similar schedule.
I think we're bouncing back and forth between Oakland and Drexel here. So I'll clarify my position...
Oakland: Won the Summit League (17-1) and conference tourney last year. Have a future NBA center on their team in Keith Benson.
Drexel: Much improved from last year. Don't care where they were picked to finish. (Don't forget, UF was picked to win the SEC East.) They were 3-5 this time last year. They're 7-1 now against a very similar schedule.
EDIT: We got our lines crossed. I was talking about Drexel when you were talking about Oakland and vice versa. :lol: Sorry, it's early. Oakland I agree is pretty good. Drexel..... I just don't see it. They really did try to give that game to UL last night several times.
dabvu2498
12-15-2010, 09:58 AM
Hmm, draftexpress, which I like a lot better than draft.net, has him going in the 2nd round with the 20th pick... Kid's a good player, no doubt, but he's more of a fringe NBA prospect than any sort of a sure-thing. JMO of course, could be totally wrong.
Nonetheless, he's a bit better than a "stinker."
Averaging 18.1-11.7-3.4 per game.
Had 22-15 vs. West Virginia
16-14 vs. Purdue
17-12 vs. Michigan State
and 26-10 last night.
He can play.
Nonetheless, he's a bit better than a "stinker."
Averaging 18.1-11.7-3.4 per game.
Had 22-15 vs. West Virginia
16-14 vs. Purdue
17-12 vs. Michigan State
and 26-10 last night.
He can play.
Yeah he's good. I thought you were saying earlier that there was a future NBA player on Drexel and my early-morning brain took over from there. :lol: I didn't watch the UT game, only the Drexel one. I was wracking my brain trying to remember the big for Drexel who had NBA potential.
dabvu2498
12-15-2010, 10:01 AM
EDIT: We got our lines crossed. I was talking about Drexel when you were talking about Oakland and vice versa. :lol: Sorry, it's early. Oakland I agree is pretty good. Drexel..... I just don't see it. They really did try to give that game to UL last night several times.
They outrebounded Louisville by 20. Sure, they turned it over. A lot. But a lot of team are going to do that against Louisville.
Just looked like to me Drexel played harder.
dabvu2498
12-15-2010, 10:02 AM
Yeah he's good. I thought you were saying earlier that there was a future NBA player on Drexel and my early-morning brain took over from there. :lol: I didn't watch the UT game, only the Drexel one. I was wracking my brain trying to remember the big for Drexel who had NBA potential.
I hear you. 8 cups of coffee is the only way I'm rolling.
They outrebounded Louisville by 20. Sure, they turned it over. A lot. But a lot of team are going to do that against Louisville.
Just looked like to me Drexel played harder.
That's exactly what I saw.
That, and UL has very little offense coming from their big men and if their wings aren't hitting 3s they have a very anemic offense...
I was really surprised how lackadaisical Siva was bringing the ball up in the final minutes when they were down. He plays with a lot more 'swagger' than he has earned, IMO.
Just looked like to me Drexel played harder.
That's how I saw it too. Was watching it with my dad and he was railing on all the missed FT's down the stretch. That irritates him to no end.
That's how I saw it too. Was watching it with my dad and he was railing on all the missed FT's down the stretch. That irritates him to no end.
Is your dad a Hoosier too?
You never shared your thoughts about the game, btw...
Your guys actually surprised me a bit.
Is your dad a Hoosier too?
You never shared your thoughts about the game, btw...
Your guys actually surprised me a bit.
Oh yeah, he's a Hoosier. He was pretty ticked at the collapse on Saturday, as was I. IU played tough and hung in there only for it all to fall apart the last 8-10 minutes. Disappointing and encouraging at the same time.
joshnky
12-15-2010, 12:59 PM
Honestly, how can Purvis look at Siva's complete lack of development and stick with his UL verbal? I'll be very surprised if it sticks. The best point guard Pitino has put into the NBA is Sebastian Telfair.
Have you watched Louisville play at all this year? Outside of this one game, Siva has been much better this year compared to last. His biggest problem is picking up cheap fouls reaching on defense. He's still not a great shooter but he has done well so far with the faster pace of the Louisville offense.
WVRed
12-17-2010, 09:30 AM
Just saw that the SEC-Big East Challenge is going to be an Invitational similar to the ACC-Big Ten. All teams will be playing and on home floors instead of neutral sites.
Add in playing Kansas/Duke/Michigan State the next three years and now likely a top Big East team and this schedule is getting more grueling. I like it though.
Heard something really funny happened last night...
Guess UL had a graduation ceremony last night and someone listed their middle name as "Free Enes." :lol:
That is so awesome. hahaha.
80 years ago today, Adolph Rupp coached his first game at KENTUCKY, a win over my alma mater Georgetown College.
Here is a link to the boxscore: http://www.bigbluehistory.net/bb/Statistics/Games/19301218GeorgetownCollege.html
Basketball's Baron - Rupp Turns Philosopher and Coaches Love It
by Joseph Litsch, Atlanta Journal-Constitution, March 26, 1977.
College basketball has never experienced such a lineup: Hobson, Meyer, Iba, Hinkle, Holman, Longborg, Hickey, Rupp, Wooden.
Among the nine are more than 4,500 wins, 17 NCAA championships, 14 NIT championships and five Hall of Famers. The Hyatt Regency's Phoenix Ballroom was packed to standing room only to hear each in turn reminisce and evaluate various aspects of basketball.
But it was only when Adolph Rupp, affectionately and respectfully called the Baron of Bluegrass Basketball, spoke that the multitude responded with a standing ovation.
"Gentlemen, I don't know where basketball is going," Rupp began in the familiar quavering voice. "I don't think preachers are overpaid, I know they pray like hell over that collection plate, but I don't think it's filled. And when a preacher's son enrolls as a freshman driving a Thunderbird, I wonder about it. When I get back home to Lexington, I'm going down to check the Thunderbird prices. I didn't know they were in that range."
Rupp leaned heavily on the lectern. He had been assisted by Abe Lemons and Ray Meyer. "This is not one of my good days," Rupp explained later. He is 75 and seriously ill.
"I thought I'd throw in a little philosophy." Rupp went on. "I think we get a little thin-skinned if we stay in this business long. And believe me, I've had some sharpies thrown at me.
"Just the other day, I heard of one - and it was a sharp one - from Arizona," Rupp continued. "Things like that can hurt, especially if you've got children who are old enough to read.
"But let me tell you one thing about criticism. Forget it. If you worry about what people think and say about you, you'll never last in this game," Rupp said.
The room was quiet save the gravelly voice. Those present were seeing an Adolph Rupp they had never before seen. A sharp contrast to the quick wit and sharp tongue of previous coaching clinics.
"I think a lot about Rudyard Kipling. I remember when he was still living and an editor for the Manchester Guardian wrote that the junk Kipling was writing would never last.
"Well, it hurt Kipling," Rupp continued. "He was greatly depressed. And while he was in that depression, he sat down and wrote the poem 'L'Envoi'."
"When earth's last picture is painted, and the tubes are twisted and dried.
When the oldest colors have faded, and the youngest critic has died.
We shall rest, and faith, we shall need it - lie down for an aeon or two.
Till the Master of All Good Workmen shall set us to work anew!
And those that were good will be happy; they shall sit in a golden chair;
They shall splash at a ten-league canvas with brushes of comets' hair;
They shall find real saints to draw from - Magdalene, Peter and Paul;
They shall work for an age at a sitting and never be tired at all!
And only the Master shall praise us, and only the Master shall blame;
And no one shall work for money, and no one shall work for fame;
But each for the joy of the working, and each, in his own separate star,
Shall draw the Thing as he sees It for the God of Things as They Are!"
"Thank you."
There was an air of benediction, but the reverence was broken by thunderous applause. The crowd stood, applauding and wondering if this would be the last time they would listen to the man in the brown suit. This was a different man from the one who had won 880 games while Kentucky's head basketball coach.
"Well, this is the first time I've ever said this," Rupp said later. "This is my philosophy and I've always tried to live by that poem. I learned it back in 1919.
"When I got up, I didn't know what I was going to say. Everybody else had talked about the game, so I decided to give them some advice."
Rupp has never dodged criticism nor the public. His telephone number to this day is listed in the Lexington directory. Dial it and he answers.
"I saw no reason for an unlisted number," he said. "If somebody wanted to talk to me, I wanted to talk to them."
When he shows up at Rupp Arena, the 23,000-seat coliseum named for him and built for the Kentucky team he established, it's cause for a five-minute standing ovation.
"I don't go when they play Mississippi or a team like that. I want to see a contest," he said the old fight blazing through.
Hundreds of coaches filed past Rupp, shaking his hand and asking for his autograph.
"You know what you've meant to me, and I want to thank you," said North Carolina Coach Dean Smith.
"And good luck to you," answered Rupp.
"This is the most enjoyable session I've ever been to and I've been to plenty," said former Georgia Tech Coach John "Whack" Hyder.
Rupp waited until the crowd had thinned then asked someone to help him up. "This has been a long session. They tire me out," he said.
The crowd in the lobby parted to let him through. Hands thrust out to shake his, Rupp accepted the praise graciously.
"Now that's what you call a real legend," said one young coach. "He IS college basketball."
Cal wore a brown suit in tribute to Coach Rupp's first game 80 years ago and ended up getting ejected for only the 2nd time in his career.
Eloy Vargas went up for a lob and got undercut and Cal lost it. That's a sore spot with many coaches when it isn't called because it can so easily result in injury. Cal definitely got his money's worth. It made me wonder how many times, if any, Coach Rupp was ejected? Cal made the joke that Rupp didn't get ejected, HE ejected the officials. :lol:
Brandon Knight also made a better than half-court shot that ended up being SC #1 play.
Joe B. Hall was honored last night and over 40 of his former players came to participate.
It was cool seeing Sean Woods back in the building. He said he still gets goosebumps whenever he comes into Rupp. One of my favorite Cats.
cumberlandreds
12-20-2010, 09:19 AM
I don't blame Cal for being ejected. The refs decided to take the 2nd half off and not call anything against either team. I think it was Lamb that got hammered on a shot just before the Vargas non-call too. I'm sure he also used it to try to light some type of fire in his team. They were very slugglish the whole night. But you can expect that against a team like MVSU. The next two games will be similar too against Winthrop and Coppin State. I'm sure they are looking ahead to the holiday and Louisville already.
WVRed
12-20-2010, 11:22 AM
I don't blame Cal for being ejected. The refs decided to take the 2nd half off and not call anything against either team. I think it was Lamb that got hammered on a shot just before the Vargas non-call too. I'm sure he also used it to try to light some type of fire in his team. They were very slugglish the whole night. But you can expect that against a team like MVSU. The next two games will be similar too against Winthrop and Coppin State. I'm sure they are looking ahead to the holiday and Louisville already.
Went back and watched the video of Cal getting ejected. You knew it was coming but what cracked me up was that Doron Lamb was the one trying to calm Cal down.
I thought the Vargas non call could have went either way though. It wasn't incidental contact but it was a dangerous fall that could have resulted in a serious injury.
Went back and watched the video of Cal getting ejected. You knew it was coming but what cracked me up was that Doron Lamb was the one trying to calm Cal down.
I thought the Vargas non call could have went either way though. It wasn't incidental contact but it was a dangerous fall that could have resulted in a serious injury.
How could Vargas getting under-cut have gone against Vargas? Vargas committed no foul.
WVRed
12-20-2010, 01:45 PM
How could Vargas getting under-cut have gone against Vargas? Vargas committed no foul.
It was a no-call. Didn't suggest Vargas should have been called for it.
Vargas was undercut by a MVSU player and nothing was called. However, from the replay it wasn't an intentional foul on the MVSU player. It could have been called on MVSU or not called at all.
WVRed
12-20-2010, 03:45 PM
Looks like Cal is ok with the NBA coming to Kentucky possibly:
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=5931443
The only downside is I don't see it having much of a benefit to the NBA to relocate a franchise or go through expansion to Kentucky. Most UK fans in general don't follow the NBA and at the most only follow Kentucky players in the NBA.
It would have a benefit though to both Calipari and Pitino in that NBA scouts would constantly be around. If you needed anything else to appeal to recruits, there you go.
http://www.sportingnews.com/ncaa-basketball/feed/2010-09/enes-kanter/story/kanter-will-stay-at-kentucky-if-asked-to-sit-out-a-year
The father of Kentucky freshman center Enes Kanter, who is awaiting a final ruling on his eligibility from the NCAA, said he will “guarantee” that if his son is asked to serve a one-year suspension over amateurism issues he will not enter the 2011 NBA Draft and will play college basketball next season.
“Enes would do anything to play and help UK, his teammates and fans,” Mehmet Kanter wrote. “In the last two years, one thing me and Enes never discussed was him being pro. He didn’t mention to me about NBA or draft and I guarantee you as a father – if that’s the NCAA's decision Enes will be a sophomore next year in UK.”
“I been saying from beginning of the review there has never been any monetary exchange between Enes and Fenerbahce,” Mehmet Kanter said. “Enes was 16 years old, never had any knowledge about any accounts and everything has been between me and Fenerbahce.”
TIFWIW... it would be pretty amazing if Kanter stayed to play with the 2011 class...
TeamSelig
12-22-2010, 03:34 PM
OMG..........
That would be too good to be true.
Doron Lamb new freshman scoring record (Mashburn 31) versus Winthrop today (32).
Hoosier Red
12-22-2010, 03:54 PM
“I been saying from beginning of the review there has never been any monetary exchange between Enes and Fenerbahce,” Mehmet Kanter said. “Enes was 16 years old, never had any knowledge about any accounts and everything has been between me and Fenerbahce.”
The University of Kentuck and coach John Calipari would like to personally thank Auburn University for introducing this line of argument into player eligibility issues. It's trailblazers like Morgan Newton who make it possible to find new and exciting loopholes to exploit.:D
In all seriousness, it's a huge recruiting coup if UK can convince him to stay and play for a year, but I'm not sure what the benefit is to Kanter. Maybe if the NBA is locked out however....
WVRed
12-23-2010, 12:44 AM
The University of Kentuck and coach John Calipari would like to personally thank Auburn University for introducing this line of argument into player eligibility issues. It's trailblazers like Morgan Newton who make it possible to find new and exciting loopholes to exploit.:D
In all seriousness, it's a huge recruiting coup if UK can convince him to stay and play for a year, but I'm not sure what the benefit is to Kanter. Maybe if the NBA is locked out however....
Wrong Newton. Morgan Newton plays QB for Kentucky.
If he could even be half of what Cam is, I'd be perfectly happy.
WVRed
12-23-2010, 01:02 AM
The dream scenario for me is that hopefully everybody from this class sticks around if the NBA locks out, a freed Enes, and the top recruiting class next year.
Only problem would be making the scholarship situation work out.
Hoosier Red
12-23-2010, 01:16 AM
Wrong Newton. Morgan Newton plays QB for Kentucky.
If he could even be half of what Cam is, I'd be perfectly happy.
Bah. That's what happens when you google very quickly. Was looking for Cam's father's name.
I'll just go with Rev. Newton
Hoosier Red
12-23-2010, 01:17 AM
The University of Kentuck and coach John Calipari would like to personally thank Auburn University for introducing this line of argument into player eligibility issues. It's trailblazers like Rev. Newton who make it possible to find new and exciting loopholes to exploit.:D
In all seriousness, it's a huge recruiting coup if UK can convince him to stay and play for a year, but I'm not sure what the benefit is to Kanter. Maybe if the NBA is locked out however....
WVRed
12-23-2010, 11:00 AM
According to Larry Vaught, a decision could be made today. The decision (entirely speculation) is that Kanter would be declared eligible for this season but immediately eligible for the start of next season.
I wonder if Pitino is going to instruct his guys to try and instigate something early with our guys again? This group actually seems better equipped to deal with such tactics than last year's squad.
This is definitely UL's Super Bowl and you know Pitino will pull out all the stops.
joshnky
12-27-2010, 03:11 PM
This is definitely UL's Super Bowl and you know Pitino will pull out all the stops.
Really? Last year that may have been true but not this year. This UK team just isn't good enough to raise the game to that level for UofL. Last year's UK team brought the hype and swagger that raised this game to another level beyond the normal heat of the rivalry.
Personally, I hated last years UK team and really wanted UofL to win that game. This year, knowing that UK is not quite so intimidating, my level of excitement about the game is much lower. I realize the new arena might make this game have a greater meaning for some fans but, win or lose, we still have a terrific arena and no one will remember the outcome of this game in five years.
Also, to answer your question about Pitino instigating some trouble early on, I'd be shocked if he went for that again. Louisville can beat UK this year without all of that (and it won't work anyway) whereas last year they had no shot without trying something to alter the game plan (and it almost worked).
Really? Last year that may have been true but not this year. This UK team just isn't good enough to raise the game to that level for UofL. Last year's UK team brought the hype and swagger that raised this game to another level beyond the normal heat of the rivalry.
Personally, I hated last years UK team and really wanted UofL to win that game. This year, knowing that UK is not quite so intimidating, my level of excitement about the game is much lower. I realize the new arena might make this game have a greater meaning for some fans but, win or lose, we still have a terrific arena and no one will remember the outcome of this game in five years.
C'mon now, you know UL doesn't want UK to start their series off in the Bucket at 1-0 versus UL.
I think the new arena combined with Pitino v. Cal will have the atmosphere pretty electric... Pitino said something about this being their game of the year in his press conference...
Also, to answer your question about Pitino instigating some trouble early on, I'd be shocked if he went for that again. Louisville can beat UK this year without all of that (and it won't work anyway) whereas last year they had no shot without trying something to alter the game plan (and it almost worked).
Yeah I hope you're right. Anyway, the smarter tactic IMO, and something Pitino is pretty much guaranteed to do, is try to get a main UK cog in foul trouble (thinking of Terrence Jones, especially).
Scrap Irony
12-27-2010, 04:30 PM
Who does Louisville have to drive in order to get Jones in foul trouble? That team is built around the jumper, just as Kentucky is.
Who does Louisville have to drive in order to get Jones in foul trouble? That team is built around the jumper, just as Kentucky is.
Jennings?
I assume Harrellson will be matched up on him but maybe you run a little rub screen or something to get Jones switched onto him and then attack the rim...
joshnky
12-27-2010, 07:06 PM
Who does Louisville have to drive in order to get Jones in foul trouble? That team is built around the jumper, just as Kentucky is.
Great point. Both teams play a similar style without a "true" 4 on the floor unless Pitino decides to go with Buckles who has fallen out of favor of late. It should be a fun game. I expect a lot of sloppy play and turnovers as the pace will be insane but at least it can't possibly be as bad as the brutal slug fest of last year. As far as Jones goes, as long as he can keep from picking up stupid fouls in transition he should be fine. All of UofL's big men are good in transition but awful in a half court set.
Hopefully, Marra and Justice will be healthy to provide some depth behind Kuric/Smith and Siva (who will definitely be in foul trouble). On the other hand, I expect a lot of UK fans are also hoping for a sudden return to health for Marra given his recent shooting prowess.
I dunno how realistic a new arena for UK is in this economic climate... I've heard rumblings that big coal will end up paying for a lot of it... However, definitely expect the new arena talk to ratchet up a couple notches after everyone gets to witness UL's shiny new facility firsthand.
Have you been yet Josh? I'm going to the UK/UL game and am really looking forward to seeing it. Really want to see the Kentucky Wall of Fame.
joshnky
12-27-2010, 09:59 PM
Have you been yet Josh? I'm going to the UK/UL game and am really looking forward to seeing it. Really want to see the Kentucky Wall of Fame.
I haven't been yet but I'd be interested to hear a non-UofL fans perspective.
On the game, I hope UK decides to defend UofL in the same manner that Morgan St and WKU have instead of the Drexel approach. Louisville has proven quite capable of hitting threes at a near record pace when they're wide open. Drexel extended the defense and they couldn't hit anything.
WVRed
12-27-2010, 10:48 PM
If anybody on this thread hasn't seen it yet, I would highly recommend the documentary Blue Dawn. I bought it for my Dad for Christmas and watched it tonight. It's an extremely in-depth look at last seasons team with extensive interviews with Calipari and others throughout.
If you are a UK fan, this is a must-have.
http://www.amazon.com/University-Kentucky-Blue-John-Calipari/dp/B0041HT5J0
Buckles out of the game tomorrow with a fractured finger.
WVRed
12-30-2010, 10:20 PM
I saw tickets being sold on TBK a set of two for $900-$1000. Remember reading when Rick came back to Rupp for the first time the tickets were going around $1500. Yeah, this is the pinnacle of college basketball.
I'm interested in seeing if Cal uses the "Cal"zone against Louisville at all. I read earlier this week how attentive to detail Pitino is and how Cal while at UMass threw a zone together during preseason just to have Pitino defend against it but never used it.
joshnky
12-31-2010, 03:09 PM
Buckles out of the game tomorrow with a fractured finger.
This ended up hurting a lot more than I expected it to.
Great game by Kentucky. Aside, from a 10 minute stretch in the first half Louisville didn't play badly, UK just executed to perfection. It felt like they didn't miss a shot or make a mistake in the entire second half. They continually took advantage of Louisville's weakness at the 4 and just punished them when they doubled in the paint.
I hate to lose but I'm not too upset because Louisville just got beat by a better team playing a nearly perfect game.
Scrap Irony
12-31-2010, 03:35 PM
I thought Terrence Jones played big as a point forward. Louisville kept doubling (usually off Harrellson, who had the game of his life), and Jones kept making them pay. Really intelligent game by a kid who's not known for being all that basketball smart.
Knowles had a great game, the best by a Kentucky kid since... Rex Chapman 15 years ago?
And Brandon Knight is making me look good in saying he'd be a better college player than John Wall. (I'm also guessing he stays two years in order to graduate or come close.)
This UK team is not good enough for the championship, but it pays smarter than last season's team did.
This UL team is not good enough nor as talented as last year's team, but I love watching them play, too.
Unfortunately, this year's WKU team is struggling against a really tough schedule. (Look for the Toppers to go on a monster Sun Belt winning streak.
Murray State is also playing okay against a tough schedule, with four losses.
Might be an interesting year in the Bluegrass State this season. I expect at least four Kentucky teams and perhaps five to make the tournament.
Knowles had a great game, the best by a Kentucky kid since... Rex Chapman 15 years ago?
LOL, uh no. Hilltopper oughta know better than that. :nono:
http://bigbluehistory.net/bb/Statistics/Games/20041218Louisville.html
Not to mention his team actually won the game and we all remember exactly how that went down...
YouTube - Last minute of Kentucky Louisville 2004 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-MfuwGMg48A&playnext=1&list=PLC3827CF4EBE22D77&index=15)
By the way, watching that video, it's amazing how much worse Pitino looks now. These past few years have really aged him.
EDIT: Rondo had a better game than Knowles yesterday in 2005 as well. http://bigbluehistory.net/bb/Statistics/Games/20051217Louisville.html
Kentucky is now 28-14 lifetime versus Louisville.
The best part about beating UL is no UL yapping until the football game rolls around.
I sure hope Topcat stops by. ;)
This is a fun group to watch. Very unselfish. Loved the way Jones looked out of the double team for the open man. Earlier in the season he forces his shot/drive into that double team. It is amazing what Cal gets out of these freshmen and how much they improve from start to finish.
Like Cal said in his presser, "Brandon is RUNNING the team now." And you watch him and that's exactly what he's doing... such a cerebral kid...
And Josh Harrellson... WOW, what more can you say. His name will live on in UK lore forevermore after his performance yesterday.
As to my experience in YUM!: Couldn't believe how much BLUE was in that arena. The arena is amazing. All the amenities one could imagine. UL fans were very courteous overall.
dabvu2498
01-01-2011, 08:53 PM
Knowles had a great game, the best by a Kentucky kid since... Rex Chapman 15 years ago?
That was 25 years ago. I suddenly feel ancient. :eek:
Also, seems like Pelphrey had a moster game against Louisville at some point.
That was 25 years ago. I suddenly feel ancient. :eek:
Also, seems like Pelphrey had a moster game against Louisville at some point.
Good memory. He dropped 26 on them in 1991.
http://bigbluehistory.net/bb/Statistics/Games/19911228Louisville.html
dabvu2498
01-01-2011, 11:46 PM
Good memory. He dropped 26 on them in 1991.
http://bigbluehistory.net/bb/Statistics/Games/19911228Louisville.html
My brother was at UK then. I was about as big a UK fan as one could possibly be at that point.
My brother was at UK then. I was about as big a UK fan as one could possibly be at that point.
Was?
dabvu2498
01-03-2011, 11:08 AM
Was?
I grew up. ;)
I grew up. ;)
Now you are in a Vandy-UT home. Quite a change.
cumberlandreds
01-04-2011, 09:15 AM
UK overcomes a slow start to throttle Penn 86-62. On to the SEC. The Cats play at Georgia on Saturday. This won't be an easy game. Georgia has some talent and a good coach in Mark Fox.
Blimpie
01-04-2011, 09:02 PM
Granted the SEC overall is WAY down this year, but Georgia will be pretty fierce competition in the East this year. Outside of the UK freshmen, they probably have as much talent on their roster than any other team.
Extremely tough way to open up the conference season for the Cats. I think they will be fortunate to get out of Athens with a win.
nmculbreth
01-07-2011, 07:22 PM
http://www.sportingnews.com/ncaa-basketball/feed/2010-09/enes-kanter/story/kanter-will-stay-at-kentucky-if-asked-to-sit-out-a-year
TIFWIW... it would be pretty amazing if Kanter stayed to play with the 2011 class...
Looks like it is going to be a moot point.
http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/news/story?id=6000134
Too bad. I'm not a UK follower but it seems like Kanter and his family tried to comply with the spirit of the NCAA by-laws, which is more than I can say for some of the high profile rulings the NCAA has made recently.
redsfan_12
01-07-2011, 09:18 PM
Its really BS at how Masolli (sp?), Renardo Sidney (MS St), and Selby can play, but Kanter cant. The kid passed up millions of dollars to play college basketball. It is also a joke that Bruce Pearl can still coach. Guy admits to cheating and what not, and all...the NCAA is just a joke anymore...
Brutus
01-07-2011, 11:22 PM
Its really BS at how Masolli (sp?), Renardo Sidney (MS St), and Selby can play, but Kanter cant. The kid passed up millions of dollars to play college basketball. It is also a joke that Bruce Pearl can still coach. Guy admits to cheating and what not, and all...the NCAA is just a joke anymore...
$33,000 is still far more than any of those players took. It doesn't matter if he passed up millions... he accepted money he wasn't supposed allowed, by rule, to accept.
This is an open and shut case. I appreciate he wanted to play college ball and wish more would just as he does. But $30K is a large chunk of money and it's not one that has ever been OK'd by the NCAA.
Funny thing about this is that for as upset as Kentucky fans are about this, going so far in some cases to go say ridiculous things to Pete Thamel (even death threats), they're losing sight of the fact that Josh Harrellson has been, IMHO, one of the absolute most improved players in America. He's not Enes Kanter, but right now he's rated No. 7 in the country in offensive efficiency, doesn't turn it over much, is one of the better rebounders in the nation and has been a workhorse inside. I think UK fans should focus on what they have instead of being preoccupied with what was never going to be there to begin with.
Scrap Irony
01-08-2011, 01:54 AM
You ignore two things, Brutus:
1) The Kanter family tried to trudge through the NCAA rulebook by themselves with no help from anyone. Remember, different language, different culture, different ways of doing things. No Turkish ballplayer goes to a regular high school. (That's why this decision is so backwards, IMO. The NCAA is seemingly taking a hard-line stance against not just Kanter, but all "foreigners" simply because they do things the NCAA refuses to understand.) How can one family, with English as a second language, expect to keep straight the myriad of rules when entire universities can't?
You rail againt it being a professional team that gave him money. So what? Doesn't any money given to a player by anyone automatically make them a professional?
2) The Kanter family never spent the money on anything except an education. There was extra money in the savings account ($13,000) over top of the amount used for tutors, et al, never spent. In America, the money Kanter's father accepted would have been less than many private school scholarships.
By the letter of the law, Kanter should have been declared ineligible, true. But the kid could have made millions (and was in fact offered a million dollars) and refused it to go to college. That's the kind of kid I would want at my school representing my corporation.
His is the type of case the appeals process was made for.
Instead, we get Josh Selby, who took money knowing full well it was wrong, then lied about it.
Instead, we get Renardo Sidney, who took money knowing full well it was wrong, then lied about it.
Instead, we get five (!) OSU players who knowingly broke the rules, then hid behind ignorance, knowing full well they were wrong.
Instead, we get a limp governing body that turns a blind eye to what is right in order to hide behind what is easy.
You insist he took money he wasn't allowed to take. Fair enough. So did Selby, Sidney, and the Ohio State players. Is it the amount of money that offends you? What does that matter? Isn't all of it technically wrong? If you're going to follow the letter of the law, that's fine.
But do it for everyone.
Brutus
01-08-2011, 02:16 AM
You ignore two things, Brutus:
1) The Kanter family tried to trudge through the NCAA rulebook by themselves with no help from anyone. Remember, different language, different culture, different ways of doing things. No Turkish ballplayer goes to a regular high school. (That's why this decision is so backwards, IMO. The NCAA is seemingly taking a hard-line stance against not just Kanter, but all "foreigners" simply because they do things the NCAA refuses to understand.) How can one family, with English as a second language, expect to keep straight the myriad of rules when entire universities can't?
You rail againt it being a professional team that gave him money. So what? Doesn't any money given to a player by anyone automatically make them a professional?
2) The Kanter family never spent the money on anything except an education. There was extra money in the savings account ($13,000) over top of the amount used for tutors, et al, never spent. In America, the money Kanter's father accepted would have been less than many private school scholarships.
By the letter of the law, Kanter should have been declared ineligible, true. But the kid could have made millions (and was in fact offered a million dollars) and refused it to go to college. That's the kind of kid I would want at my school representing my corporation.
His is the type of case the appeals process was made for.
Instead, we get Josh Selby, who took money knowing full well it was wrong, then lied about it.
Instead, we get Renardo Sidney, who took money knowing full well it was wrong, then lied about it.
Instead, we get five (!) OSU players who knowingly broke the rules, then hid behind ignorance, knowing full well they were wrong.
Instead, we get a limp governing body that turns a blind eye to what is right in order to hide behind what is easy.
You insist he took money he wasn't allowed to take. Fair enough. So did Selby, Sidney, and the Ohio State players. Is it the amount of money that offends you? What does that matter? Isn't all of it technically wrong? If you're going to follow the letter of the law, that's fine.
But do it for everyone.
Professional basketball clubs employ players for a livelihood. Their very existence is to employ professionals. Taking money/benefits from hobbyists and getting paid from a professional ballclub is a very big distinction. It's not even remotely the same. If Josh Selby took money from the Pistons, we wouldn't be having this conversation because he would be ineligible just like Kanter is, even if it were for academic expenses.
This isn't hard to figure out. And ignorance isn't an excuse for not following the law. OK so the Kanters wanted to play college ball and towed the line carefully. So what? If they were really concerned by it, they wouldn't have risked being associated with the club or would have sought advice about it. So that they took any money above travel expenses isn't a good excuse. If they were truly doing their homework, they would have known not to take that chance to begin with.
It's pretty simple... those players you mentioned received benefits. They were punished. Kanter received money from a professional club. He was considered, thereby, a professional. I can understand one supposedly had the right motives and the others didn't, but intellectually, the one that received money from a professional basketball club should thereby be considered a professional.
In any event, if the Kanters are true to their word and they want their son to have an American education... guess what? They're still going to get it. A free education at Kentucky if he wants it. That's what he wanted right?
Does it suck that a player wanted to play college ball instead of the NBA? Actually, yes. I am disappointed by that. Kanter is a great talent, one that is good for the college game.
But he received expenses from a professional club beyond travel & sustenance. That right there ends an NCAA case pretty much every time.
You ignore two things, Brutus:
1) The Kanter family tried to trudge through the NCAA rulebook by themselves with no help from anyone. Remember, different language, different culture, different ways of doing things. No Turkish ballplayer goes to a regular high school. (That's why this decision is so backwards, IMO. The NCAA is seemingly taking a hard-line stance against not just Kanter, but all "foreigners" simply because they do things the NCAA refuses to understand.) How can one family, with English as a second language, expect to keep straight the myriad of rules when entire universities can't?
You rail againt it being a professional team that gave him money. So what? Doesn't any money given to a player by anyone automatically make them a professional?
2) The Kanter family never spent the money on anything except an education. There was extra money in the savings account ($13,000) over top of the amount used for tutors, et al, never spent. In America, the money Kanter's father accepted would have been less than many private school scholarships.
By the letter of the law, Kanter should have been declared ineligible, true. But the kid could have made millions (and was in fact offered a million dollars) and refused it to go to college. That's the kind of kid I would want at my school representing my corporation.
His is the type of case the appeals process was made for.
Instead, we get Josh Selby, who took money knowing full well it was wrong, then lied about it.
Instead, we get Renardo Sidney, who took money knowing full well it was wrong, then lied about it.
Instead, we get five (!) OSU players who knowingly broke the rules, then hid behind ignorance, knowing full well they were wrong.
Instead, we get a limp governing body that turns a blind eye to what is right in order to hide behind what is easy.
You insist he took money he wasn't allowed to take. Fair enough. So did Selby, Sidney, and the Ohio State players. Is it the amount of money that offends you? What does that matter? Isn't all of it technically wrong? If you're going to follow the letter of the law, that's fine.
But do it for everyone.
:clap: Damn that's a good post. :eek:
I feel bad for Kanter more than anything else. If he had known how this would play out, he could have spent the last year earning between 3-4 million dollars between playing for his National Team and Euro ball.
He came to Kentucky to be a college basketball player AND student.
As you so well laid out, his INTENT is what separates him from the masses of collegiate athletes in the eligibility news lately. The fact that he was willing to make restitution combined with his clear intent to remain amateur would seemingly lead to the NCAA giving him a path to play college sports. The NCAA and the Appeals Committee, in their infinite wisdom, decided to deny him that path.
Whatever, it's over now.
"My team's on the court!"
“I’m not worried about that,” Calipari said when asked about the possibility of UK forfeiting games because of Kanter’s participation. “This is about that young man. So whatever (the Kanter family) chooses to do as a family, we’ll support.”
:eek: Yanno, part of me would love to see the Kanter's lawyer slug the NCAA right in the nose with a lawsuit and see some transparency introduced into the circus they're running in Indianapolis...
Personally I think he'll just set his sights on preparing for the draft. I know I wish him the best and will always consider him a Cat.
Scrap Irony
01-08-2011, 04:24 AM
Professional basketball clubs employ players for a livelihood. Their very existence is to employ professionals. Taking money/benefits from hobbyists and getting paid from a professional ballclub is a very big distinction. It's not even remotely the same. If Josh Selby took money from the Pistons, we wouldn't be having this conversation because he would be ineligible just like Kanter is, even if it were for academic expenses.
Respectfully, your argument is entirely semantics, Brutus. It doesn't matter who pays the cash. The fact of the matter is that all were paid largely for their talent. Period. That makes each of them professional. The distinction you're trying to make is flawed at its very core.
This isn't hard to figure out. And ignorance isn't an excuse for not following the law. OK so the Kanters wanted to play college ball and towed the line carefully. So what? If they were really concerned by it, they wouldn't have risked being associated with the club or would have sought advice about it. So that they took any money above travel expenses isn't a good excuse. If they were truly doing their homework, they would have known not to take that chance to begin with.
It's pretty simple... those players you mentioned received benefits. They were punished. Kanter received money from a professional club. He was considered, thereby, a professional. I can understand one supposedly had the right motives and the others didn't, but intellectually, the one that received money from a professional basketball club should thereby be considered a professional.
Again, if you want to play any basketball in Turkey, that's the system he had to deal with. There are no high school teams to play with, no AAU clubs. The only basketball is run by professional clubs, who then have a stranglehold on those players.
It's patently unfair to expect those kids in other countries to do things as American kids when they have no opportunity to do so.
Too, he wasn't paid to be a professional. His father was given money for educational expenses. He and his family refused moneys that they thought would have made him a professional. That's a pretty big distinction both you and the NCAA haven't seen yet.
In any event, if the Kanters are true to their word and they want their son to have an American education... guess what? They're still going to get it. A free education at Kentucky if he wants it. That's what he wanted right?
Does it suck that a player wanted to play college ball instead of the NBA? Actually, yes. I am disappointed by that. Kanter is a great talent, one that is good for the college game.
But he received expenses from a professional club beyond travel & sustenance. That right there ends an NCAA case pretty much every time.
So it's okay to get money from boosters, agents, and assorted hangers-on, but not from a professional team? Again, that's some pretty tortuous logic, IMO.
Finally, I think it's important not just to focus on the hard and fast rule. (The NCAA hasn't done that all year-- why start now?) The intent is key here.
To use an analogy, I've got a kid in class who plagiarized on his last paper. He didn't really understand the concept of cheating, but, once it was explained, he apologized profusely and offered to not only take the punishment (a zero), but also re-do the paper.
The rule is pretty straightforward.
But the intent wasn't to deceive me or lengthen his work. He just didn't quite grasp the concept of how to (or the need to) cite paraphrased material.
What should I have done, Brutus?
I know what the NCAA would have done. Well, no, I don't. I guess it depends on the university, the spotlight, and how much money can be earned, as to their decision.
TeamSelig
01-08-2011, 03:30 PM
Good post, Scrap.
Brutus
01-08-2011, 04:55 PM
Respectfully, your argument is entirely semantics, Brutus. It doesn't matter who pays the cash. The fact of the matter is that all were paid largely for their talent. Period. That makes each of them professional. The distinction you're trying to make is flawed at its very core.
Sure it matters. The very core of the ruling is that he was considered a professional. Professionals earn money for a living. Say some young hair stylist gets paid $20 by a friend to do hair. That isn't really considered being a professional, it's just receiving money for something they're good at. But if they get paid by a hair stylist to do peoples' hair, it becomes a profession.
It's not semantics. The very definition of the word applies to Kanter. It doesn't apply to the other cases.
Again, if you want to play any basketball in Turkey, that's the system he had to deal with. There are no high school teams to play with, no AAU clubs. The only basketball is run by professional clubs, who then have a stranglehold on those players.
It's patently unfair to expect those kids in other countries to do things as American kids when they have no opportunity to do so.
Too, he wasn't paid to be a professional. His father was given money for educational expenses. He and his family refused moneys that they thought would have made him a professional. That's a pretty big distinction both you and the NCAA haven't seen yet.
Not true. There are club teams that are not considered professional clubs all around the region. There were plenty of opportunities. And if playing was important to he and the family, they could have uprooted to America to play.
So it's okay to get money from boosters, agents, and assorted hangers-on, but not from a professional team? Again, that's some pretty tortuous logic, IMO.
Finally, I think it's important not just to focus on the hard and fast rule. (The NCAA hasn't done that all year-- why start now?) The intent is key here.
To use an analogy, I've got a kid in class who plagiarized on his last paper. He didn't really understand the concept of cheating, but, once it was explained, he apologized profusely and offered to not only take the punishment (a zero), but also re-do the paper.
The rule is pretty straightforward.
But the intent wasn't to deceive me or lengthen his work. He just didn't quite grasp the concept of how to (or the need to) cite paraphrased material.
What should I have done, Brutus?
I know what the NCAA would have done. Well, no, I don't. I guess it depends on the university, the spotlight, and how much money can be earned, as to their decision.
Show me where I said it was "OK" to get money from boosters. Don't start with the strawman.
I said there's a difference between receiving benefits and being a professional. Those other examples were cases of receiving money or benefits, not being in a quasi-state of employ. They all broke rules, but being a professional is what constitutes being ineligible.
The intent was to render services as a basketball player to a club that operates professionally in exchange for a stipend that went beyond travel expenses. That's all the intent that matters, even if the family had the 'right' intentions. It doesn't matter what the money was going to be used for.
You keep trying to portray the NCAA as inconsistent. But they're not... not when it comes to professional clubs and this type of money. Anytime you get dollar amounts involved, especially of this magnitude, and especially involving professional clubs... even the NCAA is pretty consistent: you're a professional. To their credit, that's the one area they've never wavered.
To your analogy... what should you have done? He broke a rule. There should be a punishment involved. But it's hard to compare the instance because this isn't about punishing someone as much as it is deciding whether someone is a 'professional.' Breaking a rule once can earn varying degrees of punishment. Becoming a professional never goes away.
Scrap Irony
01-08-2011, 05:53 PM
Sigh.
Once again, Brutus, you refuse to acknowledge the fact that the money was NOT for playing basketball, but for educational expenses. (As is supposedly allowed by NCAA guidelines, though only, apparently, for select colleges and players.) For example, Ohio State used a couple kids from foreign countries who also were technically "paid" money in order to obtain an education. Should they too have been ruled permanently ineligible?
In other words, that professional dog just won't hunt.
As to "simply moving to America" in order to not break NCAA guidelines of professionalism-- geez, ethnocentrist much? He was 14 when he started, for God's sake. Would you uproot for family, practice, and stake everything on whether a 14-year-old might eventually 1) be good enough to play at a high level college, and, 2) still be interested in playing basketball at all?
I'm suprised you're arguing this, as you've always seemed a bit of a pragmatist when it comes to tOSU, the NCAA, and the prossionalism of amateur athletics. Wonder why?
Brutus
01-08-2011, 06:16 PM
Sigh.
Once again, Brutus, you refuse to acknowledge the fact that the money was NOT for playing basketball, but for educational expenses. (As is supposedly allowed by NCAA guidelines, though only, apparently, for select colleges and players.) For example, Ohio State used a couple kids from foreign countries who also were technically "paid" money in order to obtain an education. Should they too have been ruled permanently ineligible?
In other words, that professional dog just won't hunt.
As to "simply moving to America" in order to not break NCAA guidelines of professionalism-- geez, ethnocentrist much? He was 14 when he started, for God's sake. Would you uproot for family, practice, and stake everything on whether a 14-year-old might eventually 1) be good enough to play at a high level college, and, 2) still be interested in playing basketball at all?
I'm suprised you're arguing this, as you've always seemed a bit of a pragmatist when it comes to tOSU, the NCAA, and the prossionalism of amateur athletics. Wonder why?
I'm not "refusing to acknowledge" anything. Except that why was he given money for 'educational expenses' in the first place? Because of his skills as a basketball player to contribute to a professional basketball club! That's a professional. He was reimbursed to contribute to a pro basketball club. Forget that it was for educational motives. That's a professional.
That's really all that matters and the core point that is conveniently being ignored by folks in Kentucky.
I don't see what Ohio State has to do with this. You want to know something? Alexander Radojevic. Remember him? He was the OSU recruit that was declared ineligible by the NCAA in 2003. You want to know why he was ruled ineligible? Because he was paid by a professional club, despite appearing in six games. But he was ruled a professional. He didn't know the rules. He was 17. Should the NCAA let him be eligible? Should he have been allowed to play for Ohio State? He could have just gone to the NBA, but he wanted to play in America's college system.
I'm really not sure what your points about OSU have to do with this anyhow. Seems you're trying to get some jabs in. Except, for what? I've not said anything about Ohio State other than to say the stuff OSU athletes did are things you can find at Kentucky, North Carolina, Oklahoma, etc. I certainly haven't really said much about it except being the 'pragmatist' you describe in the crucification of athletes. It's by that token I'm not blaming Kentucky or Kanter, but you can't have your cake and eat it too. He wanted to be an amateur but he was willing to accept expenses from a pro team when there are club teams in the region and they could have uprooted to America. You say that's not practical, yet it was practical enough for them to do research on what constitutes being an NCAA athlete and that was their motivation... to prepare for being a college basketball player. You say they took steps to make sure he would be eligible, yet you say they "didn't know the rules." If ignorance of overseas players is the litmus test, then every kid that was paid by a professional club should get to come to America to play if they want to, because by that standard, it's not fair to expect any of them to know the rules.
But one thing that still rings true: they weren't paid by a professional club. And that's really the difference that matters.
Scrap Irony
01-08-2011, 07:17 PM
The OSU player absolutely should have been allowed to play, if his journey was similar to Kanter's. (I know nothing of him or his situation.)
As to the "payment", the NCAA allows players, like Kanter, to get their educations paid for by professional teams.
Febernahce pulled a fast one with elder Kanter, giving him the money instead of paying a tutor/ teacher directly. By the rule of the law, this immediately made Kanter ineligible.
This is why Kanter is ineligible, Brutus.
Meanwhile, kids from Kansas, Mississippi State, and OSU not only are found out doing things against the rules, but they lie about it after getting caught. Each of these players are punished (well, kind of-- some are still awaiting a punishment, assuming they come back to school), but allowed to stay in school.
A player from Auburn is allowed to be eligible even though his father broke a major rule with the NCAA having found him good to go because they had no proof he knew the rule was being broken.
If you can't see the dichotomy of the decisions...
Brutus
01-08-2011, 07:52 PM
The OSU player absolutely should have been allowed to play, if his journey was similar to Kanter's. (I know nothing of him or his situation.)
As to the "payment", the NCAA allows players, like Kanter, to get their educations paid for by professional teams.
Febernahce pulled a fast one with elder Kanter, giving him the money instead of paying a tutor/ teacher directly. By the rule of the law, this immediately made Kanter ineligible.
This is why Kanter is ineligible, Brutus.
Meanwhile, kids from Kansas, Mississippi State, and OSU not only are found out doing things against the rules, but they lie about it after getting caught. Each of these players are punished (well, kind of-- some are still awaiting a punishment, assuming they come back to school), but allowed to stay in school.
A player from Auburn is allowed to be eligible even though his father broke a major rule with the NCAA having found him good to go because they had no proof he knew the rule was being broken.
If you can't see the dichotomy of the decisions...
I've already corrected this in the Cam Newton thread, but this is not the case.
The NCAA's FAQ on benefits:
It is important to note that educational expenses (e.g., high-school or preparatory school tuition payments) may be considered a prohibited form of pay based on athletics skill, depending on the source from which the educational funds are received. For example, under current NCAA legislation, a prospective student-athlete may not receive educational expenses from his or her outside sports team or organization when those funds are based in any degree on the recipient's athletics ability. In addition, a prospect may not receive educational expenses from any individual whose relationship with the prospect developed as a result of the prospect's athletics participation or reputation.
The FAQ for allowed sources of benefits:
The most common sources from which a prospect may receive educational expenses without jeopardizing his or her amateur status are described below:
* Parents, legal guardians and other family members may provide educational expenses for a prospect.
* High schools and preparatory schools may provide academic and athletically related scholarships to a prospect.
* A prospect may receive educational expenses from an established and continuing scholarship program designed to aid students in secondary schools, even if athletics participation is part of the basis (but not the major criterion) for receiving the award, provided the prospect remains free to select his or her own school, the school controls the aid and the prospect has no continuing obligation to the donor.
* An established friend or mentor who has a close and established relationship with a prospect that developed without regard to athletics participation or reputation and before the prospect achieved any notoriety as an athlete may provide educational expenses to the prospect if such expenses are similar in nature to other assistance provided by the individual to the prospect before the prospect achieved notoriety as an athlete.
Professional clubs are not the guise under which educational expenses can be paid. It doesn't matter if the money went to Kanter or his father. Professional clubs cannot pay for educational expenses.
Only high schools & prepatory schools can cover educational expenses for athletes. That's been the basis of almost every ruling the NCAA has had in this particular type of instance. That's always been true.
You keep quoting the "he's allowed to received educational expenses" mantra, but it's not true. The NCAA's FAQ's, rule book, etc. make this clear. Every coach I've ever spoken with has told me the same. No expenses can be paid for by a professional club to any prospective athlete except for actual travel expenses incurred as part of participation. That's it.
If he had gone to a school in Turkey that paid for his athletic scholarship, you would be correct. But professional clubs cannot pay for any other expenses whether he or his father receive the money.
He's a professional by the clinical form of definition. What the other athletes did while they were already on campus is nowhere related to whether Kanter was considered a professional basketball player before arriving at Kentucky.
Heck, even Steve Smith wouldn't take him because he thought Kanter was a professional. What does that tell you?
Once again: educational expenses cannot be paid for by a professional team.
From the NCAA Bylaws, Rule 12.02.4 Amateurism: Professional Athletics Team: Allowable "necessary" expenses:
(1) Meals directly tied to competition and practice held in preparation for such competition;
(2) Lodging directly tied to competition and practice held in preparation for such competition;
(3) Apparel, equipment and supplies;
(4) Coaching and instruction;
(5) Health/medical insurance;
(6) Transportation (expenses to and from practice competition, cost of transportation from home to training/
practice site at the beginning of the season and from training/practice site to home at the end of
season);
(7) Medical treatment and physical therapy;
(8) Facility usage; (Revised: 4/24/03)
(9) Entry fees; and (Revised: 4/24/03)
(10) Other reasonable expenses; or (Adopted: 4/24/03, Revised: 10/28/04)
Now, another rule directly from the bylaws regarding this issue. Regarding educational expenses prior to arriving in college...
From NCAA Bylaw 12.1.2.1.3.1 Prohibited Forms of Pay: Educational Expenses Prior To Collegiate Enrollment:
12.1.2.1.3.1 Educational Expenses or Services—Prior to Collegiate Enrollment. A prospective student-athlete may receive educational expenses or services (e.g., tuition, fees, room and board, books, tutoring, standardized test preparatory classes) prior to collegiate enrollment from any individual or entity other than an agent, professional sports team/organization, member institution or a representative of an institution’s athletics interests, provided the payment for such expenses or services is disbursed directly to the individual, organization or educational institution (e.g., high school, preparatory school) providing the educational expense or service. (Adopted: 4/25/02 effective 8/1/02, Revised:1/14/08)
So again, Kanter CANNOT receive money for educational expenses from a professional club. Even if it were not directly given to him.
He, thereby, was considered a professional basketball player.
Scrap Irony
01-08-2011, 10:46 PM
I obviously wasn't being clear enough, as I expected you to know the loopholes used by Division I schools.
He's not getting paid. Not in a legal sense. Let me explain: professional teams in foreign countries provide "expense" money. This money may be used for anything from an apartment to food to clothing to... yep, you guessed it, an education. (This is a common loophole around the NCAA ruling and has been for 30 years.)
It's one used by virtually any prospect from anywhere around the world (other than the US and Canada), including some pretty good foreign players of the past 20 years. The only difference is that the Kanters touched the money, rather than letting the professional team pay for it (as per guidelines for some expenses) and that they didn't spend all the cash given them. (The amount of money given was excessive; many think it was done purposefully, as a way to make Kanter ineligible before he ever stepped foot on a high school or college campus.)
As an aside, using only common sense here: how different is this than simply a private school scholarship? I'm fairly certain amost any private school in the country does the same thing for somewhere around the same amount of money.
Brutus
01-08-2011, 11:25 PM
I obviously wasn't being clear enough, as I expected you to know the loopholes used by Division I schools.
He's not getting paid. Not in a legal sense. Let me explain: professional teams in foreign countries provide "expense" money. This money may be used for anything from an apartment to food to clothing to... yep, you guessed it, an education. (This is a common loophole around the NCAA ruling and has been for 30 years.)
It's one used by virtually any prospect from anywhere around the world (other than the US and Canada), including some pretty good foreign players of the past 20 years. The only difference is that the Kanters touched the money, rather than letting the professional team pay for it (as per guidelines for some expenses) and that they didn't spend all the cash given them. (The amount of money given was excessive; many think it was done purposefully, as a way to make Kanter ineligible before he ever stepped foot on a high school or college campus.)
As an aside, using only common sense here: how different is this than simply a private school scholarship? I'm fairly certain amost any private school in the country does the same thing for somewhere around the same amount of money.
Did you bother reading what I posted? It says specifically... educational expenses CANNOT be covered by professional teams. How is that a loophole? It's expressly forbidden by the NCAA and has been ruled as such in pretty much every case that's come before the NCAA in some form or another.
Any players that had educational expenses covered were considered a professional by NCAA definition. That's right there in the rules plain as day. There's no loophole about it. Teams may try to launder the money to players in that form (under the guise of "expenses"), but if the NCAA finds out about it, there's no doubt what the ruling will be -- because it's not allowed.
It seems you're arguing that because some teams have gotten away with it, thereby it's a loophole. I'm sure that it's happened before, but it's not a loophole. It's against the rules and stated in the bylaws as such.
I think you're mistaking ways to hide something like educational expenses with "loophole." There's nothing legal about it. It's not a loophole because it's specifically addressed. If you want to again amend your statement to say teams have used other allowable expenses to launder educational expenses... then sure, I'm sure that's happened. But it's still against the rules no matter how you want to slice it.
How is it different than an athletic scholarship? Well, pretty simple: professional teams have one purpose. Basketball. At least athletic scholarships, in theory, serve the purpose of also educating the students. Now I'm not so naive to think that's not abused in the states, nor is it even a major concern with a lot of coaches/athletes these days. But there is still at least, on paper, a big difference between the two.
WVRed
01-09-2011, 09:53 AM
So did anybody know Kentucky lost yesterday?
WVRed
01-09-2011, 11:58 AM
As for Kanter, here are some quotes by the UK brass. The bolded comments are for harshness toward the NCAA ruling.
UK Athletics Director Mitch Barnhart
“We are disappointed in the result and equally disappointed in the process. We have spent significant effort and resources to help this young man play college basketball in the United States. This has been on our radar screen daily for 10 months.
“We were informed by the NCAA that the flexible decisions made by the NCAA staff in other high-profile cases could not be used in case precedent and were not binding on the NCAA going forward. The University of Kentucky was very hopeful that our student-athlete might receive the same type of consideration afforded to these other athletes but that did not happen. We were also reminded on a regular basis that the amateurism and professionalism piece, including benefits received from a professional team, is the one area of Bylaw 12 that has not been deregulated.”
UK Men’s Basketball Coach John Calipari
“We are obviously disappointed in this decision and find it unfortunate that a group of adults would come to such a decision regarding the future of an 18-year-old young man.
“This has never been about our program or the University of Kentucky, it has been about the wishes of Enes and his family to have their son educated in the United States. It is a shame that Enes had to endure the constant speculation and misinformation that was furthered by certain media organizations in the smear campaign conducted by his Turkish team.
“The silver lining is that Enes will always be part of this team. My job will be to prepare him for his entry into the NBA Draft, which this decision by the Association will likely necessitate. Enes will always be a part of our family and I plan to be by his side in the green room whenever he is drafted.”
“I’m very disappointed in what appears to me to be an inconsistent decision that leaves an outstanding young man without any recourse. It’s very disappointing that this young man, who along with his family intended to do everything the right way and in compliance with the rules, won’t be able to pursue his dream of playing at UK and in intercollegiate athletics. As an NCAA board member, I continue to be puzzled and confused by the reasoning behind this decision, which seems to be an inconsistent and arbitrary application of the rules. It is unfortunate and disappointing that Enes and his family have been negatively impacted by this process. It is certainly a matter I will continue to try to understand and question in my remaining time on the board as part of an organization, whose stated purpose is to put families and student athletes first.”- Lee T. Todd, Jr
Scrap Irony
01-09-2011, 11:59 AM
Did you bother reading what I posted? It says specifically... educational expenses CANNOT be covered by professional teams. How is that a loophole? It's expressly forbidden by the NCAA and has been ruled as such in pretty much every case that's come before the NCAA in some form or another.
Any players that had educational expenses covered were considered a professional by NCAA definition. That's right there in the rules plain as day. There's no loophole about it. Teams may try to launder the money to players in that form (under the guise of "expenses"), but if the NCAA finds out about it, there's no doubt what the ruling will be -- because it's not allowed.
It seems you're arguing that because some teams have gotten away with it, thereby it's a loophole. I'm sure that it's happened before, but it's not a loophole. It's against the rules and stated in the bylaws as such.
I think you're mistaking ways to hide something like educational expenses with "loophole." There's nothing legal about it. It's not a loophole because it's specifically addressed. If you want to again amend your statement to say teams have used other allowable expenses to launder educational expenses... then sure, I'm sure that's happened. But it's still against the rules no matter how you want to slice it.
How is it different than an athletic scholarship? Well, pretty simple: professional teams have one purpose. Basketball. At least athletic scholarships, in theory, serve the purpose of also educating the students. Now I'm not so naive to think that's not abused in the states, nor is it even a major concern with a lot of coaches/athletes these days. But there is still at least, on paper, a big difference between the two.
Not some teams, Brutus. All teams.
You're simply wrong on this, despite what you insist is in the rules. It's been seen as an expense for all high school level athletes for 30 years.
Oxblood
01-09-2011, 02:31 PM
So did anybody know Kentucky lost yesterday?
Lost to GA? That's surprising.
Brutus
01-09-2011, 03:29 PM
Not some teams, Brutus. All teams.
You're simply wrong on this, despite what you insist is in the rules. It's been seen as an expense for all high school level athletes for 30 years.
I'm honestly shocked anyone could say, with a straight face, they're "wrong" when the rules are posted plain as day specifically saying this is something that is not permissible in any form by the letter and spirit of the law. Even if you choose to not take my word for it, coming from many conversations about it with coaches & compliance folks, which is fine, that you're still choosing to believe otherwise even though it's right there staring you in the face in black & white is pretty incredible.
I'm not wrong about it. Not "all" teams do it. The ones that do... it's still very much against the rules. Some teams (and yes, "some") do it as a form to try to avoid getting caught. It's like money laundering with benefits. But it's still against the rules. Period.
Scrap Irony
01-09-2011, 05:13 PM
It's not ignorance, Brutus. This is the way it's been with all European prospects (aside from England and some German guys) that have come to America to play basketball since Detlef Schrempf and Christian Welp.
It's the way Olympiakos "high schooler" and former OSU 7-footer Zisis Sarikopoulos was able to get through school. It's the way any kid from Turkey, Serbia, Spain, et al, gets eligible for the NCAA.
The dogmatic insistence that this is professionalism, Brutus, simply doesn't pass the smell test.
1) Most Division I athletes must practice with/ learn from a professional squad in their region because high school sports (as they're known in America) just aren't there.
2) Professional teams give money to amateur basketball players as "expenses" to pay for needed expenses.
3) Division I prospects must have the equivalent of a high school diploma or GED in order to get into colleges and universities in America.
4) Professional teams across the rest of the world practice at all hours and are not responsible for the education of their players (like a high school would be), so not only do they not require kids to go to school, they basically keep them from it.
5) Many foreign players come straight from Europe, Latin and South America, and some from Asia and Australia to American universities and are immediately eligible for playing and for .
I know it's confusing. (This is why the NCAA handbook is so incredibly hard to decipher. Rules oddly oppose each other.) You find a rule (or seven) to quote but the reality is obviously different. (Otherwise, no player from basketball factories like Olympiakos or Febernahce or wherever would ever be eligible.)
I'm not ignorant on this issue, Brutus. The NCAA ruled against Enes Kanter citing the professionalism rule.
They could have just as easily allowed him in (as they have in every other case where a player came to Division I hoops from a basketball factory).
This runs contrary to decisions made this year across the NCAA landscape, where the focus wasn't on the rule, but on the individual student involved. (Newton, the OSU players, Selby, et al.)
Brutus
01-09-2011, 05:31 PM
It's not ignorance, Brutus. This is the way it's been with all European prospects (aside from England and some German guys) that have come to America to play basketball since Detlef Schrempf and Christian Welp.
It's the way Olympiakos "high schooler" and former OSU 7-footer Zisis Sarikopoulos was able to get through school. It's the way any kid from Turkey, Serbia, Spain, et al, gets eligible for the NCAA.
The dogmatic insistence that this is professionalism, Brutus, simply doesn't pass the smell test.
1) Most Division I athletes must practice with/ learn from a professional squad in their region because high school sports (as they're known in America) just aren't there.
2) Professional teams give money to amateur basketball players as "expenses" to pay for needed expenses.
3) Division I prospects must have the equivalent of a high school diploma or GED in order to get into colleges and universities in America.
4) Professional teams across the rest of the world practice at all hours and are not responsible for the education of their players (like a high school would be), so not only do they not require kids to go to school, they basically keep them from it.
5) Many foreign players come straight from Europe, Latin and South America, and some from Asia and Australia to American universities and are immediately eligible for playing and for .
I know it's confusing. (This is why the NCAA handbook is so incredibly hard to decipher. Rules oddly oppose each other.) You find a rule (or seven) to quote but the reality is obviously different. (Otherwise, no player from basketball factories like Olympiakos or Febernahce or wherever would ever be eligible.)
I'm not ignorant on this issue, Brutus. The NCAA ruled against Enes Kanter citing the professionalism rule.
They could have just as easily allowed him in (as they have in every other case where a player came to Division I hoops from a basketball factory).
This runs contrary to decisions made this year across the NCAA landscape, where the focus wasn't on the rule, but on the individual student involved. (Newton, the OSU players, Selby, et al.)
It says plainly that professional teams cannot pay education expenses. Not even if the money is not paid directly. There's no debating that in plain language. It's right there. That's always been the rule and that's always been the interpretation.
Any teams that do it otherwise are doing so as an attempt to hide the educational expenses being paid to the athlete so they will not lose eligibility with the NCAA. And when the NCAA finds out that is the case, that's why rulings like the one with Kanter happen.
There's nothing vague, inconspicuous or inconsistent about this rule. It's not a confusing rule. It's not contradictory. That particular one is right there in the bylaws. Compliance officers are laughing right now at the comments coming out of Lexington because everyone knows the NCAA ruled, in this case, in the technical way. The way that the rulebook dictates. There's no disputing that, or at least there shouldn't be (but apparently citing the actual rules on the subject isn't enough to avoid creative ways to be entrenched in a position).
If you want to argue whether or not it should constitute professionalism, it's a discussion I think can be made. But there shouldn't be any debating the fact that, at least according to the bylaws, this IS professionalism.
As I said, you're right that teams do often do what you suggested... pay expenses through pro teams without the athlete touching the money. But it's just a laundering scheme to avoid getting caught. It's not permissible and it doesn't make the player avoid the dreaded "pro" label if he gets caught.
Scrap Irony
01-09-2011, 05:42 PM
So all universities who bring in players from basketball factories are breaking the rules?
Why, then, has the NCAA simply not allowed those players in Division I hoops?
I agree that the NCAA has ruled on Kanter based on professionalism and that the rulebook at least partly explains the answer. But, when compared to the real world, your claims that it's "plain" and "black and white" ring hollow.
What you say makes no sense in the current world of college hoops and hasn't since European kids started coming across.
Topcat
01-09-2011, 05:57 PM
So all universities who bring in players from basketball factories are breaking the rules?
Why, then, has the NCAA simply not allowed those players in Division I hoops?
I agree that the NCAA has ruled on Kanter based on professionalism and that the rulebook at least partly explains the answer. But, when compared to the real world, your claims that it's "plain" and "black and white" ring hollow.
What you say makes no sense in the current world of college hoops and hasn't since European kids started coming across.
His whole family lived off his housing allowance . Following link actually uses facts. But most likely UK fans do not want facts because it doesn't fit there agenda to win a NCAA basketball title. http://thesportsjury.com/20110109879/opinion/qkantq-play-for-kentuckyand-shouldnt
Brutus
01-09-2011, 06:29 PM
So all universities who bring in players from basketball factories are breaking the rules?
Why, then, has the NCAA simply not allowed those players in Division I hoops?
I agree that the NCAA has ruled on Kanter based on professionalism and that the rulebook at least partly explains the answer. But, when compared to the real world, your claims that it's "plain" and "black and white" ring hollow.
What you say makes no sense in the current world of college hoops and hasn't since European kids started coming across.
I think it's simply a matter of manpower. The NCAA eligibility clearinghouse simply can't bust but a fraction of kids that were paid by professional clubs overseas. A lot of them probably have been paid expenses that went above and beyond the allowable "necessary" expenses. But conducting a thorough investigation to find that out isn't feasible, so short of any specific evidence existing to the contrary, the NCAA typically clears those players.
Do all universities break the rules in bringing in those kids? Not all, but I imagine many (though it's not fair to assume all of them know their kids are likely 'professionals'). But as with the Kanter situation, I don't hold it against the schools as much the letter of the law dictates those players should be labeled professionals and the schools shouldn't gripe if they're in fact ruled ineligible.
I don't think Kanter or Kentucky did anything wrong. But the rule is in place to keep from kids that have been playing professional basketball, coming in and having a competitive advantage. Dictating kids that have been, by law, paid as professionals, is the best way to do that. And by those laws, Kanter was found to have fit that bill. For me, that's the most important point.
My specific points about this:
1. I see a difference between being given extra benefits on campus, and being compensated by a professional club
2. I see a difference between not having a competitive advantage while being compensated benefits in school and being compensated to play against professionals
3. I see a difference between pursuing an education awarded by athletic scholarship by an institution of learning and reimbursed education expenses by a professional club.
It's those subtle points that differentiate the players suspended for games at a time and being ruled a professional. And it's not an indictment against Kanter, just simply a letter-of-the-law observation between the differences.
The lingering question I had: if the money was for educational expenses, but they anticipated playing NCAA ball, why were the expenses necessary? That part never added up for me (but it's not central to my point).
Anyhow, should he be a pro because he was allegedly paid for expenses meant for education? I don't know. As I said, it's a good debate. But I think the premise of the rule is that it opens up a can of worms and potential for abuse if it's allowed.
Scrap Irony
01-09-2011, 06:40 PM
I think it's simply a matter of manpower. The NCAA eligibility clearinghouse simply can't bust but a fraction of kids that were paid by professional clubs overseas. A lot of them probably have been paid expenses that went above and beyond the allowable "necessary" expenses. But conducting a thorough investigation to find that out isn't feasible, so short of any specific evidence existing to the contrary, the NCAA typically clears those players.
Respectfully, that makes no logical sense, Brutus. The NCAA could simply create a rule where all kids who played with professional teams ineligible. That they don't indicates they accept how it works currently.
But the Kanter situation is one where they can subjectively brandish their collective amateur sword and insist on education before professionalism.
It's subjective as Hades, runs counter to recent NCAA decisions, and does a disservice to the young man.
That, IMO, is plain, black, and white.
Scrap Irony
01-09-2011, 06:45 PM
His whole family lived off his housing allowance . Following link actually uses facts. But most likely UK fans do not want facts because it doesn't fit there agenda to win a NCAA basketball title. http://thesportsjury.com/20110109879/opinion/qkantq-play-for-kentuckyand-shouldnt
Did you read the article you linked to?
Were one of my sophomore students to turn that in, they'd have to re-write it. Painful.
Trolling doesn't belong on an intelligent board.
Scrap Irony
01-09-2011, 07:00 PM
My specific points about this:
1. I see a difference between being given extra benefits on campus, and being compensated by a professional club
2. I see a difference between not having a competitive advantage while being compensated benefits in school and being compensated to play against professionals
3. I see a difference between pursuing an education awarded by athletic scholarship by an institution of learning and reimbursed education expenses by a professional club.
It's those subtle points that differentiate the players suspended for games at a time and being ruled a professional. And it's not an indictment against Kanter, just simply a letter-of-the-law observation between the differences.
And mine:
1. A ruling like the one against Kanter is ethnocentrist, ignorant of other cultures, and ignores the reality of the way basketball is played around the rest of the world.
2. Compensation is compensation and it matters not whether a kid received it from a professional team, a booster, a street agent, or a university. Any money given to an athlete because of his skill makes said athlete professional.
3. Recent NCAA rulings and the new focus of the new NCAA president run counter to the decision made on Kanter, especially as his intent was not to defraud nor take advantage, but to become a college player.
Brutus
01-09-2011, 07:08 PM
Respectfully, that makes no logical sense, Brutus. The NCAA could simply create a rule where all kids who played with professional teams ineligible. That they don't indicates they accept how it works currently.
But the Kanter situation is one where they can subjectively brandish their collective amateur sword and insist on education before professionalism.
It's subjective as Hades, runs counter to recent NCAA decisions, and does a disservice to the young man.
That, IMO, is plain, black, and white.
Why doesn't it make sense? We have laws in this country that aren't enforceable but in rare instances, but that doesn't mean we do away with them or make them more strict just because we can't catch everyone doing them.
By your logic, we should just stop allowing European players because many of them have probably played professional basketball in some fashion.
Like I said... the NCAA is inconsistent, but they're pretty darn consistent when it comes to getting compensated by professional clubs. That's going to not end well for schools & players almost every time.
Brutus
01-09-2011, 07:13 PM
And mine:
1. A ruling like the one against Kanter is ethnocentrist, ignorant of other cultures, and ignores the reality of the way basketball is played around the rest of the world.
2. Compensation is compensation and it matters not whether a kid received it from a professional team, a booster, a street agent, or a university. Any money given to an athlete because of his skill makes said athlete professional.
3. Recent NCAA rulings and the new focus of the new NCAA president run counter to the decision made on Kanter, especially as his intent was not to defraud nor take advantage, but to become a college player.
1. OK but this isn't the rest of the world. This is America. We shouldn't have to change our culture or our tradition to suit the rest of the world. Call that ethnocentrist if you like, but this is our country and our system. If kids want to play American ball, they should have to go by our rules. If you go into a person's house, do you expect them to change their house rules for you? No.. you obey their laws & their rules.
2. Not true. There's a huge difference getting paid by a professional organization and getting paid by random individuals. Getting benefits from boosters doesn't make you a pro. You're not providing any service for them as a basketball player. Getting paid by a basketball club to play basketball in exchange for playing ball is, by very definition, a professional.
3. If they were so hung up on being an amateur, they never should have played for a professional club to begin with. Club teams do exist. But that's neither here nor there. Intent matters, but only to a point. He is still, by law, a pro.
Scrap Irony
01-09-2011, 07:40 PM
Why doesn't it make sense? We have laws in this country that aren't enforceable but in rare instances, but that doesn't mean we do away with them or make them more strict just because we can't catch everyone doing them...
If the NCAA doesn't want professionalism or professional teams paying for things like education, then it'd be awfully easy to get rid of those players. Any player that ever played for a team like Febernahce or Olympiakos would automatically be ineligible.
It's that simple and wouldn't take any manpower at all.
They don't.
That should tell you two things:
1) The NCAA recognizes that someone is paying for a kid's education. Since most kids arond the world are remarkably poor, it stands to reason that they couldn't afford the tutors or teachers they'd need to get a secondary degree so that they'd be eligible for universities in America.
2) Because only a few students have been declared ineligible out of a few hundred (again, over the course of 30 years), the NCAA is okay with that.
It has nothing to do with professionalism... unless the NCAA wants it to.
By your logic, we should just stop allowing European players because many of them have probably played professional basketball in some fashion.
No, I'm simply reporting what's already happening. (And yeah, most European players probably have played some sort of professional ball. As have most American kids. Almost all get paid in some fashion or another.)
Like I said... the NCAA is inconsistent, but they're pretty darn consistent when it comes to getting compensated by professional clubs. That's going to not end well for schools & players almost every time.
Except when it does. And no one knows when the NCAA is going to declare an athlete ineligible or over what.
Topcat
01-09-2011, 07:54 PM
Did you read the article you linked to?
Were one of my sophomore students to turn that in, they'd have to re-write it. Painful.
Trolling doesn't belong on an intelligent board.
I was talking about the points involved in it. But I guess you rather become the grammar police. The points made in the article are true. BTW I am not trolling. I have stated from day 1 there would be no way Kantner would be eligible. The fact Oak Hill Academy wouldn't touch this kid was a dead give away he was a pro.
TeamSelig
01-10-2011, 12:57 PM
:lol:
Some UK fans not too happy about the Enes decision.
http://www.cardchronicle.com/2011/1/7/1921970/kentucky-fans-are-taking-this-enes-kanter-news-in-stride
note: comments are pretty offensive
Topcat
01-10-2011, 04:49 PM
:lol:
Some UK fans not too happy about the Enes decision.
http://www.cardchronicle.com/2011/1/7/1921970/kentucky-fans-are-taking-this-enes-kanter-news-in-stride
note: comments are pretty offensive
Sad part is that is quite typical of all to many UK fans. Who forced the $$$ on this kid ever? Also to state the obvious he was a 1 and done player from the get go.
Sad part is that is quite typical of all to many UK fans. Who forced the $$$ on this kid ever? Also to state the obvious he was a 1 and done player from the get go.
Cardinal troll.
Sad part is someone being ignorant enough to equate 10 idiots on twitter with a fanbase comprised of millions. Kentucky fans are passionate, but to attempt to relate those twitterers to somehow being representative of the entire fanbase is just dumb.
(PS- 28-14 ... Where were you after that beatdown at the YUMMY! Center? I guess trolling isn't as much fun when your team just got whipped...)
Fun question I saw on another board: Who is your pick for greatest leaper to ever play at UK?
King Rex? Dirk? James Lee? Azubuike? John Wall?
dabvu2498
01-10-2011, 06:37 PM
Fun question I saw on another board: Who is your pick for greatest leaper to ever play at UK?
King Rex? Dirk? James Lee? Azubuike? John Wall?
They didn't call him "Sky" Walker for no good reason.
They didn't call him "Sky" Walker for no good reason.
Of course!!! Should have listed SKY in my first post. :D
Another excellent candidate. ;)
WVRed
01-10-2011, 10:08 PM
Cardinal troll.
Sad part is someone being ignorant enough to equate 10 idiots on twitter with a fanbase comprised of millions. Kentucky fans are passionate, but to attempt to relate those twitterers to somehow being representative of the entire fanbase is just dumb.
(PS- 28-14 ... Where were you after that beatdown at the YUMMY! Center? I guess trolling isn't as much fun when your team just got whipped...)
Show me the UK fans on twitter and I'll show you the Cardinals scout.com board where:
Peyton Siva was said to be better than John Wall.
An epic meltdown when Marquis Teague picked Kentucky over Louisville
UK was dirty for hiring a Nike guy in Martin Newton yet Louisville hired Tim Fulller, another Nike guy, to keep up.
Every fanbase has idiot fans. I'm not going to pretend Kentucky doesn't because simply put, they do. Some just tend to get magnified more than others, and I live in a state where that is the case.
TeamSelig
01-10-2011, 10:20 PM
Yeah, I don't think they rep the fan base (those on twitter) but I did find them to be hilarious... in a... cross the line, going overboard kinda way
Topcat
01-11-2011, 04:13 AM
Show me the UK fans on twitter and I'll show you the Cardinals scout.com board where:
Peyton Siva was said to be better than John Wall.
An epic meltdown when Marquis Teague picked Kentucky over Louisville
UK was dirty for hiring a Nike guy in Martin Newton yet Louisville hired Tim Fulller, another Nike guy, to keep up.
Every fan base has idiot fans. I'm not going to pretend Kentucky doesn't because simply put, they do. Some just tend to get magnified more than others, and I live in a state where that is the case.
Oh I totally agree. But death threats and wishing ill health on a person is beyond pathetic. As for the poster who talked about UK's record versus the Ville. All i have to state is this........................... what school has had players permanently banned from pro basketball? 28-14 how is that record since UK got close to the death sentence the 1st time?:p:
You say troll I say ya okay blue neck:D Bottom line at least we both love the Red's :D
cumberlandreds
01-11-2011, 09:03 AM
Fun question I saw on another board: Who is your pick for greatest leaper to ever play at UK?
King Rex? Dirk? James Lee? Azubuike? John Wall?
Kenny "Sky" Walker would be my choice. One of the best all around players to ever put on a Waldcat uniform too.
Scrap Irony
01-11-2011, 01:15 PM
Minnifield for me. In an early ESPN game (and one of my first basketball memories), he was staring at the rim in a dunk against MSU (IIRC).
Greatest dunk I had ever witnessed-- until Blake Griffin and Derek Rose came along.
cumberlandreds
01-11-2011, 02:11 PM
Minnifield for me. In an early ESPN game (and one of my first basketball memories), he was staring at the rim in a dunk against MSU (IIRC).
Greatest dunk I had ever witnessed-- until Blake Griffin and Derek Rose came along.
You have the Minnifield dunk correct. That was one of the best dunks you would ever want to see. I think it was during the 82-83 season.
dabvu2498
01-11-2011, 03:45 PM
This one:
YouTube - Dirk Minniefield Dunk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AuzUyVvMs4E)
Yeah. That's the single best dunk ever in UK history. Bar none.
dabvu2498
01-11-2011, 08:34 PM
Good gracious, Auburn is bad.
"Dick Vitale Curb Stomps NCAA Pres Into Response"
http://www.sportsbybrooks.com/dick-vitale-curbstomps-ncaa-prez-into-response-29413
gilpdawg
01-14-2011, 08:28 AM
For all the crap Dick gets on here, "Dookie V" and all that stuff, at the end of the day, when he actually gets serious and underneath all the bravado, the dude's usually right on the money. I like the guy. Nobody cares about college hoops more than that dude, even if he does love Duke. (and fwiw, I don't like Duke, but I respect the heck out of them)
And, I haven't really chimed in on the Kanter situation, simply because I'm not a Kentucky fan, but dude should be able to play. People forget that these are 18 year old kids. They do things that they shouldn't because they probably don't know any better. Selby and the big guy from IU should be eligible as well. My personal opinion is that all these kids should get ONE free pass for minor infractions. As long as there's no Eddie Sutton or SMU Football type cheating going on, then the NCAA should just back off. Why keep the charade going on? It's a minor league for the NFL and the NBA and they should just admit it. I mean, if I was born a poor black child like Steve Martin in the Jerk :) and I was a phenomenal basketball player and my family was poor and I was going to go play basketball in college, sure, I'm getting a free education, but I can't even afford to go to McDonalds. It's not like I can do what other college students do and get a job. I have to practice and play games and go to class. I can't even get a job in the summer because if I want to keep my spot I have to work on my game. In that hypothetical, if some agent offered me 10 grand, you bet I'd take it and hope nobody noticed, and you would too. I can't really speak on the European guys as I don't really know the culture over there, but heck with it, let em play. It's a cattle call anyway.
Topcat
01-15-2011, 12:27 AM
UK fans, of course, were among the harshest critics of Lasege, and it was four UK Law School graduates on the Kentucky Supreme Court (coincidentally) who ended Lasege’s legal battle against the NCAA (in a 4-3 vote). Karma, anyone?
http://blogs.courier-journal.com/ericcrawford/2010/09/09/remembering-lasege/
:thumbdown
Scrap Irony
01-15-2011, 09:48 AM
UK fans, of course, were among the harshest critics of Lasege, and it was four UK Law School graduates on the Kentucky Supreme Court (coincidentally) who ended Lasege’s legal battle against the NCAA (in a 4-3 vote). Karma, anyone?
http://blogs.courier-journal.com/ericcrawford/2010/09/09/remembering-lasege/
:thumbdown
And, from the same UofL reporter in the same story:
And I must admit — I like to point out the inconsistency in our two rabid fan bases. U of L fans are writing me telling UK was wrong to go after a player with Kanter’s background in the European pro leagues. They forget how U of L — rightly — fought for Lasege, until it had to side against him in court. And they forget a kid like Simeon Naydenov, who had to repay money and sit games for the exact same reason.
:thumbdown indeed
Hoosier Red
01-15-2011, 11:02 AM
For all the crap Dick gets on here, "Dookie V" and all that stuff, at the end of the day, when he actually gets serious and underneath all the bravado, the dude's usually right on the money. I like the guy. Nobody cares about college hoops more than that dude, even if he does love Duke. (and fwiw, I don't like Duke, but I respect the heck out of them)
And, I haven't really chimed in on the Kanter situation, simply because I'm not a Kentucky fan, but dude should be able to play. People forget that these are 18 year old kids. They do things that they shouldn't because they probably don't know any better. Selby and the big guy from IU should be eligible as well. My personal opinion is that all these kids should get ONE free pass for minor infractions. As long as there's no Eddie Sutton or SMU Football type cheating going on, then the NCAA should just back off. Why keep the charade going on? It's a minor league for the NFL and the NBA and they should just admit it. I mean, if I was born a poor black child like Steve Martin in the Jerk :) and I was a phenomenal basketball player and my family was poor and I was going to go play basketball in college, sure, I'm getting a free education, but I can't even afford to go to McDonalds. It's not like I can do what other college students do and get a job. I have to practice and play games and go to class. I can't even get a job in the summer because if I want to keep my spot I have to work on my game. In that hypothetical, if some agent offered me 10 grand, you bet I'd take it and hope nobody noticed, and you would too. I can't really speak on the European guys as I don't really know the culture over there, but heck with it, let em play. It's a cattle call anyway.
I disagree about Vitale. I think once you get below the bravado and the dipsy doo dunkaroos, he's someone who's very passionate about the game, but he will 100% side with the "kids" and the coaches every time. He doesn't like the NCAA as an institution, he often complains about the tournament selection committee(How could you leave out XYZ team.)
As I said, I think you have to appreciate his passion, but recognize his bias.
As for the Kanter situation, a few things to consider, even if you take away the $20,000 that Kanter's father said was for educational expenses, you're still talking about $13,000 which is needless to say a significant amount of money. I think if a booster had handed out $10,000 it would look worse than if a recruit was paid $1,000 or $5,000. The Ohio State Football players were all suspended for half a season and I'm going to guess none of them got caught receiving even $2,000 in benefits(maybe I'm wrong, they are all very tatted up.)
That much being said, I think the NCAA is punishing UK for the Bledsoe case which they couldn't prove but which they strongly suspect he should not have been eligible. This is not really a fair way of doing things, Kanter had nothing to do with Bledsoe, but I'm thinking he's paying the price for Bledsoe's alleged sins.
RiverRat13
01-15-2011, 04:10 PM
That dunk was amazing. Holy freakin' cow!
New York Red
01-18-2011, 04:09 PM
So is Beckham officially a Wildcat? I can't find anything official. Any of you guys back home seen him play? If so, who would you compare him to?
WVRed
01-20-2011, 10:03 AM
So is Beckham officially a Wildcat? I can't find anything official. Any of you guys back home seen him play? If so, who would you compare him to?
Its official, he's a preferred walk-on I believe. If anything its just PG depth.
I'm surprised nobody is talking about Cal cussing Terrence Jones out, since that was the whole story yesterday. If Cal does it it's wrong but Coach K can do it on ESPN and not a word is said.
cumberlandreds
01-20-2011, 02:08 PM
Its official, he's a preferred walk-on I believe. If anything its just PG depth.
I'm surprised nobody is talking about Cal cussing Terrence Jones out, since that was the whole story yesterday. If Cal does it it's wrong but Coach K can do it on ESPN and not a word is said.
Much ado about nothing. Nearly every coach at one time or another will "cuss" a player. Just something else for media to talk about. Especially since it involved Calipari.
dabvu2498
01-20-2011, 03:56 PM
I'm surprised nobody is talking about Cal cussing Terrence Jones out, since that was the whole story yesterday. If Cal does it it's wrong but Coach K can do it on ESPN and not a word is said.
I'm more surprised no one is discussing the fact that they lost to Alabama.
Razor Shines
01-20-2011, 04:10 PM
Its official, he's a preferred walk-on I believe. If anything its just PG depth.
I'm surprised nobody is talking about Cal cussing Terrence Jones out, since that was the whole story yesterday. If Cal does it it's wrong but Coach K can do it on ESPN and not a word is said.
Where was the story? I guess I missed it. I didn't know anything about it until Cal apologized for it.
I don't see what the big deal was and I don't understand why he apologized for it.
dabvu2498
01-20-2011, 04:13 PM
Where was the story? I guess I missed it. I didn't know anything about it until Cal apologized for it.
I don't see what the big deal was and I don't understand why he apologized for it.
Bobby Knight never would have apologized for that selfish m)*%@$ @$!%@*!!!!
Where was the story? I guess I missed it. I didn't know anything about it until Cal apologized for it.
I don't see what the big deal was and I don't understand why he apologized for it.
He dropped some F-bombs and it was caught on camera. At least it looked like F-bombs with my limited ability to lip read. The media loves to report on that stuff. I was surprised he apologized for it honestly.
New York Red
01-20-2011, 04:15 PM
I'm more surprised no one is discussing the fact that they lost to Alabama.
I think most of us have come to the realization that this UK team, because of it's lack of depth and weakness in the paint, is going to take a few lumps. A fun team to watch, but some glaring holes that may not be fixed this year. We'll go as far as our three-point shooting can take us. Depending on match-ups, this team could go out in the second round, or get hot and make an Elite 8 run. We have to avoid athletic or physical bigs, and that won't be easy in the tourney.
Enjoying this team, but it's hard to not think about what's coming in next year. That team will be special.
New York Red
01-20-2011, 04:18 PM
Where was the story? I guess I missed it. I didn't know anything about it until Cal apologized for it.
I don't see what the big deal was and I don't understand why he apologized for it.
During a time out, Cal called Jones a "selfish MFer". Probably not the best choice of words to use, but not a big deal either. Cal's wife called him after the game and apparently wasn't pleased. So Cal apologized. The guy has the most high profile coaching gig in the country and makes $4 million/year, but it's obvious who calls the shots at home.
Gotta love the ladies. :beerme:
Oxblood
01-20-2011, 07:14 PM
Lol @ Cal calling someone selfish. Laugh Riot.
Joseph
01-20-2011, 11:28 PM
Lol @ Cal calling someone selfish. Laugh Riot.
Troll much my friend?
Topcat
01-21-2011, 02:33 AM
Troll much my friend?
Blind to Calipari much ?:eek:
WVRed
01-21-2011, 10:49 AM
Blind to Calipari much ?:eek:
As WOY I believe once said, "Nice opinion, please provide some FACTS to back it up."
Regarding the Cal comment, this is why coaching in the state of Kentucky (that includes Louisville) is such a microcosm of a job. You not only have to win, you have to be everything to everyone. Your presence is requested at certain events (part of why Gillispie was let go) and in a particularly conservative state (the Southern Baptist headquarters is in Louisville), using foul language on national television and having an affair and trying to cover it up in the case of Pitino are frowned upon heavily by people in the state.
using foul language on national television and having an affair and trying to cover it up in the case of Pitino are frowned upon heavily by people in the state.
Frowned upon but overlooked as long as you're winning. It's that way at nearly every program.
Oxblood
01-21-2011, 12:32 PM
Troll much my friend?
Lol, I thought it was funny, that's all.
There are plenty of things to denigrate Cal over but calling him selfish is pretty dumb, IMO. I'm guessing those levying the 'selfish' epithets at Cal haven't given a fraction of the time and money that Cal DONATES to a diverse number of charities from his Calipari Foundation to the million plus dollars he raised for Haiti relief.
The world could use more guys as "selfish" as John Calipari.
Too bad this is a family board we could get into Pitino's funded abortions and various other hi-jinks that completely embarrassed his family and school and discuss what that says or doesn't say about HIS selfishness.
Topcat
01-22-2011, 06:21 AM
There are plenty of things to denigrate Cal over but calling him selfish is pretty dumb, IMO. I'm guessing those levying the 'selfish' epithets at Cal haven't given a fraction of the time and money that Cal DONATES to a diverse number of charities from his Calipari Foundation to the million plus dollars he raised for Haiti relief.
The world could use more guys as "selfish" as John Calipari.
Too bad this is a family board we could get into Pitino's funded abortions and various other hi-jinks that completely embarrassed his family and school and discuss what that says or doesn't say about HIS selfishness.
Niceeeeeeeeeeeee care for me to open the Calipari vault really? BTW only damn reason anyone knows about Pitino's transgressions is he was "Man" enough to own up to his mistakes and not be allowed to be black mailed.
WVRed
01-22-2011, 11:39 AM
Niceeeeeeeeeeeee care for me to open the Calipari vault really? BTW only damn reason anyone knows about Pitino's transgressions is he was "Man" enough to own up to his mistakes and not be allowed to be black mailed.
Go for it.
Just remember, at Kentucky we raise the bar. We don't buy the bar and throw a random woman on it. :)
Niceeeeeeeeeeeee care for me to open the Calipari vault really? BTW only damn reason anyone knows about Pitino's transgressions is he was "Man" enough to own up to his mistakes and not be allowed to be black mailed.
I would actually prefer you quit trolling this thread but if you want to play these little games, I'll play them with you.
Razor Shines
01-22-2011, 01:38 PM
I would actually prefer you quit trolling this thread but if you want to play these little games, I'll play them with you.
I'm ready. I gotta drink, some food...go!
Topcat
01-23-2011, 05:47 AM
I'm ready. I gotta drink, some food...go!
Like any serious hate fan base we both could. I wave the white flag only because are all Reds fans. Last thing I want is a hate on misguided rivalry of BB teams in the NCAA. (ps yes I will mock and laugh when Calipari puts UK on probation though):jump:
Topcat
02-02-2011, 05:58 AM
Louisville loses to Georgetown and Wildcats lose to what ! Some also ran lmao :D. Wonder what team has more hope come real time aka March madness ;)
WVRed
02-02-2011, 04:09 PM
Louisville loses to Georgetown and Wildcats lose to what ! Some also ran lmao :D. Wonder what team has more hope come real time aka March madness ;)
I'd venture to say both teams will be 4-5 seeds. Kentucky could push up to a possible 3 seed by winning the SEC tournament.
The lack of depth, size, and leadership experience on this team is quite troublesome. I wouldn't write Kentucky off in the final four just because of how wide open it is, but they are going to have to get a few breaks to get there.
I seriously wonder if Darius Miller is just naturally timid, or if time with Billy Clyde has all but destroyed his self confidence. Miller is the one player who has needed to step up and provide a leadership role but always defers.
Topcat
02-03-2011, 06:00 AM
I'd venture to say both teams will be 4-5 seeds. Kentucky could push up to a possible 3 seed by winning the SEC tournament.
The lack of depth, size, and leadership experience on this team is quite troublesome. I wouldn't write Kentucky off in the final four just because of how wide open it is, but they are going to have to get a few breaks to get there.
I seriously wonder if Darius Miller is just naturally timid, or if time with Billy Clyde has all but destroyed his self confidence. Miller is the one player who has needed to step up and provide a leadership role but always defers.
Not a flame okay. but seriously and I ask this because I have read it often. has Calipari ever actually coached up a player or is he capable of ?
Not a flame okay. but seriously and I ask this because I have read it often. has Calipari ever actually coached up a player or is he capable of ?
Man you are a lame troll. Seriously, new material please. Eric Bledsoe and Tyreke Evans especially think you're foolish to suggest Cal hasn't developed players... OR we could just start comparing lists of which coach has put which players into the league. That could be fun. The best PG Fifteeno ever put into the League was Sebastian Telfair. :laugh:
I know this logic might escape you, but just because you say "Not a flame okay" but then proceed that up with a flaming post, THAT'S FLAMING. :redface:
Little brother syndrome run amok. Everyone get a good look.
dabvu2498
02-03-2011, 09:43 AM
I seriously wonder if Darius Miller is just naturally timid, or if time with Billy Clyde has all but destroyed his self confidence. Miller is the one player who has needed to step up and provide a leadership role but always defers.
I just found it terribly ironic that he passed up that shot the day after this: http://vaughtsviews.com/?p=8891 was dicussed in the media.
I really doubt if a year with Billy Clyde broke him down so bad that 2 years of positive reinforcement couldn't rebuild. I just kinda think that's who he is. And I heard things along a similar line from his time at Mason County.
cumberlandreds
02-03-2011, 01:17 PM
I just found it terribly ironic that he passed up that shot the day after this: http://vaughtsviews.com/?p=8891 (http://vaughtsviews.com/?p=8891) was dicussed in the media.
I really doubt if a year with Billy Clyde broke him down so bad that 2 years of positive reinforcement couldn't rebuild. I just kinda think that's who he is. And I heard things along a similar line from his time at Mason County.
I think its just his nature to be a follower and not a leader. Cal just needs to accept that and fit him in as such and not expect things from someone that they can't or aren't willing to do. Cal should have just kept this meeting with Miller quiet. It has just left him wide open to 2nd guessing. IMO, Miller had just played one of his better games against Georgia. He was much more aggressive in his overall play. So I don't why Cal thought he had to push him more.
WVRed
02-03-2011, 09:33 PM
Not a flame okay. but seriously and I ask this because I have read it often. has Calipari ever actually coached up a player or is he capable of ?
I'll bite. The 1992 UMass team:
Calipari's greatest strength as a coach is his ability to create teams that play together. His 1992 Massachusetts team remains one of the most overachieving units The Minutes has ever seen, featuring a shooting guard with range so limited he made one 3-pointer all season (Jim McCoy), a 6-foot-3 power forward (Will Herndon), and a left-handed center who stood all of 6-7 (Harper Williams). Somehow, that collection of marginal talent went 30-5 and advanced to the NCAA Sweet 16.[5]
For that matter, you could include Marcus Camby. Unlike most of Cal's players, Camby wasn't highly sought after coming out of high school and at the time Cal had moderate success at UMass. Calipari and Marcus Camby put each other on the map and got each other in the NBA.
Man you are a lame troll. Seriously, new material please. Eric Bledsoe and Tyreke Evans especially think you're foolish to suggest Cal hasn't developed players... OR we could just start comparing lists of which coach has put which players into the league. That could be fun. The best PG Fifteeno ever put into the League was Sebastian Telfair.
I don't really think you can say Cal "coached up" Tyreke Evans or Eric Bledsoe. The NBA drafts on potential and potential alone. If not for the one and done rule, none of these players would have ever played HS.
Unfortunately, once you get to the level of popularity that Calipari and Pitino are at, you can pretty much pick and choose the recruits who come to play for you. Both coaches have had to "coach up" certain players but when you have talent and likely going to the NBA anyways, it really doesn't matter now.
When Rick Pitino was at Kentucky, he had the Kentucky letterhead that got him into recruits homes. He also had NBA coaching experience, which was also a plus. But Pitino did "coach up" Billy Donovan, who took Providence to the Final Four.
Bottom line is, you have to look back a lot farther than just the new millennium to make your argument. Calipari and Pitino have both paid their dues and its been in the past, long before Kentucky ever entered the picture for either of them.
Topcat
02-03-2011, 10:20 PM
I'll bite. The 1992 UMass team:
For that matter, you could include Marcus Camby. Unlike most of Cal's players, Camby wasn't highly sought after coming out of high school and at the time Cal had moderate success at UMass. Calipari and Marcus Camby put each other on the map and got each other in the NBA.
I don't really think you can say Cal "coached up" Tyreke Evans or Eric Bledsoe. The NBA drafts on potential and potential alone. If not for the one and done rule, none of these players would have ever played HS.
Unfortunately, once you get to the level of popularity that Calipari and Pitino are at, you can pretty much pick and choose the recruits who come to play for you. Both coaches have had to "coach up" certain players but when you have talent and likely going to the NBA anyways, it really doesn't matter now.
When Rick Pitino was at Kentucky, he had the Kentucky letterhead that got him into recruits homes. He also had NBA coaching experience, which was also a plus. But Pitino did "coach up" Billy Donovan, who took Providence to the Final Four.
Bottom line is, you have to look back a lot farther than just the new millennium to make your argument. Calipari and Pitino have both paid their dues and its been in the past, long before Kentucky ever entered the picture for either of them.
Thanks for the info and yes I do agree that he did an excellent job in retrospect with UMass.
I'll bite. The 1992 UMass team:
For that matter, you could include Marcus Camby. Unlike most of Cal's players, Camby wasn't highly sought after coming out of high school and at the time Cal had moderate success at UMass. Calipari and Marcus Camby put each other on the map and got each other in the NBA.
I don't really think you can say Cal "coached up" Tyreke Evans or Eric Bledsoe. The NBA drafts on potential and potential alone. If not for the one and done rule, none of these players would have ever played HS.
Unfortunately, once you get to the level of popularity that Calipari and Pitino are at, you can pretty much pick and choose the recruits who come to play for you. Both coaches have had to "coach up" certain players but when you have talent and likely going to the NBA anyways, it really doesn't matter now.
When Rick Pitino was at Kentucky, he had the Kentucky letterhead that got him into recruits homes. He also had NBA coaching experience, which was also a plus. But Pitino did "coach up" Billy Donovan, who took Providence to the Final Four.
Bottom line is, you have to look back a lot farther than just the new millennium to make your argument. Calipari and Pitino have both paid their dues and its been in the past, long before Kentucky ever entered the picture for either of them.
I don't think Cal is the greatest bench coach ever, but I think its patently ridiculous to say that he doesn't know how to coach up players, point guards especially. He gets awesome talent but he takes that talent and forces it to defend and attack, attack, attack. Perfect recipe for growth towards the NBA when you add in world-class athletes/prospects.
You can point to how many "stud" players ending up as "duds" their freshmen year? Bunches. Why does that never happen to Calipari players? Is he just that much better at picking them than every other coach?
WVRed
02-04-2011, 10:18 PM
I don't think Cal is the greatest bench coach ever, but I think its patently ridiculous to say that he doesn't know how to coach up players, point guards especially. He gets awesome talent but he takes that talent and forces it to defend and attack, attack, attack. Perfect recipe for growth towards the NBA when you add in world-class athletes/prospects.
You can point to how many "stud" players ending up as "duds" their freshmen year? Bunches. Why does that never happen to Calipari players? Is he just that much better at picking them than every other coach?
The only other coach I can think of with a better track record for developing NBA ready PG's is Lute Olson.
Whether or not Kentucky or Louisville fans want to admit it, John Calipari and Rick Pitino are one in the same when it comes to coaching up talent. Both are excellent motivators and have a signature weapon that they utilize (Calipari=DDMO, Pitino=full court pressure defense). However, the one area that they lack is game management. If its a three point game with a minute to go, you can almost start to bet money on the opposing team.
Think about it, the only UK team besides last year's team that had individual talent from top to bottom was the 1996 National Championship team. With the way Cal recruits, I don't know if we will ever have an opportunity to see that because it will depend heavily on defections. Next years team could possibly do it but I think we will lose three from this years team (Knight, Jones, and Lamb).
Topcat
02-05-2011, 06:40 AM
The only other coach I can think of with a better track record for developing NBA ready PG's is Lute Olson.
Whether or not Kentucky or Louisville fans want to admit it, John Calipari and Rick Pitino are one in the same when it comes to coaching up talent. Both are excellent motivators and have a signature weapon that they utilize (Calipari=DDMO, Pitino=full court pressure defense). However, the one area that they lack is game management. If its a three point game with a minute to go, you can almost start to bet money on the opposing team.
Think about it, the only UK team besides last year's team that had individual talent from top to bottom was the 1996 National Championship team. With the way Cal recruits, I don't know if we will ever have an opportunity to see that because it will depend heavily on defections. Next years team could possibly do it but I think we will lose three from this years team (Knight, Jones, and Lamb).
You know what WVRed. As like most Wildcat fans I honestly took some pokes at your team. But I am from Winnipeg,Canada and did not know as much about KU and there history going into typing and speaking on the KU team that I will admit.
Apparently you are a fan of Calipari and world wide Wes and his Nike ties. Thus actually becoming in your eyes as nothing more than a "troll" will never be an area we can agree on. But the laundry list on Calipari is Jerry Tarkanian like.
joshnky
02-05-2011, 09:21 AM
You know what WVRed. As like most Wildcat fans I honestly took some pokes at your team. But I am from Winnipeg,Canada and did not know as much about KU and there history going into typing and speaking on the KU team that I will admit.
Apparently you are a fan of Calipari and world wide Wes and his Nike ties. Thus actually becoming in your eyes as nothing more than a "troll" will never be an area we can agree on. But the laundry list on Calipari is Jerry Tarkanian like.
I'm a huge Louisville fan but you're ruining a good thread with your trolling. No Louisville fan can make serious accusations against Calipari given that we have Pitino. Personally, I'd rather have a coach who bends the rules professionally (as all do) then one who lacks a moral code in his personal life. And it is hard to bring up the WWW and Nike thing when Pitino just hired Tim Fuller whose primary qualification for the job is his Nike contacts.
Razor Shines
02-05-2011, 10:37 AM
You know what WVRed. As like most Wildcat fans I honestly took some pokes at your team. But I am from Winnipeg,Canada and did not know as much about KU and there history going into typing and speaking on the KU team that I will admit.
Apparently you are a fan of Calipari and world wide Wes and his Nike ties. Thus actually becoming in your eyes as nothing more than a "troll" will never be an area we can agree on. But the laundry list on Calipari is Jerry Tarkanian like.
Come on, bro. This is getting kinda silly. What good does posting garbage like this do? I don't like UK either and I know it's frustrating as hell to argue with WMR but this kinda stuff just makes you look bad.
Sea Ray
02-05-2011, 12:35 PM
You know what WVRed. As like most Wildcat fans I honestly took some pokes at your team. But I am from Winnipeg,Canada and did not know as much about KU and there history going into typing and speaking on the KU team that I will admit.
Apparently you are a fan of Calipari and world wide Wes and his Nike ties. Thus actually becoming in your eyes as nothing more than a "troll" will never be an area we can agree on. But the laundry list on Calipari is Jerry Tarkanian like.
You still come across as very clueless on Kentucky BB. The dead giveaway is your constant reference to KU and "there" history. Upon hearing that I thought you were talking Kansas Jayhawk sports.
Go do some more research before embarrassing yourself here anymore.
WVRed
02-06-2011, 12:35 AM
I'm a huge Louisville fan but you're ruining a good thread with your trolling. No Louisville fan can make serious accusations against Calipari given that we have Pitino. Personally, I'd rather have a coach who bends the rules professionally (as all do) then one who lacks a moral code in his personal life. And it is hard to bring up the WWW and Nike thing when Pitino just hired Tim Fuller whose primary qualification for the job is his Nike contacts.
This.
You are one of the most intelligent and informative Louisville fans that post on this board. I will admit that I will bring up the "Little Brother U" card from time to time but overall, I have a great deal of respect for Louisville and their accomplishments. It may not be the same as Kentucky, but it is still impressive.
I've been hazed by WMR for saying this, but I think UK fans owe Rick Pitino a great deal for restoring the program after Eddie Sutton left it in shambles. I also don't fault Rick for leaving for a NBA job with complete control in New England, where he is from. Personal issues aside, coming back to Louisville was probably the worst thing he could have done to UK fans, but the STATE of KENTUCKY was his adoptive home, as has been mentioned before.
As for the UK-UofL rivalry, consider this: I currently live in West Virginia and have to hear WVU fans talk about how much they would love to get out of playing Marshall, especially in football and even when Marshall was doing well back during the 1990's. The only reason the series is even played now is because the governor intervened. There is a difference though in that WVU is in constant BCS contention while Marshall isn't on the same playing level.
As a UK fan, I couldn't imagine not playing Louisville. That's why I never understood WVU fans and their attitude towards playing their in-state "little brother". Am I the only one who feels this way?
WVRed
02-06-2011, 12:43 AM
Two in a row.
Three things I see with this team right now:
1. No depth-There is nobody else on the bench who can contribute outside of Doron Lamb. Cal did go deeper into the bench tonight by bringing in Hood and Polson, but there is nobody else.
2. No inside presence-Harrellson has disappeared of late, and Vargas is very ineffective. How far we go in the tournament is going to depend heavily on the draw because if we face a team with decent bigs, we are finished.
3. No veteran leadership-We have veterans, they just don't play like veterans. Darius Miller passing up a wide open shot against Ole Miss is a prime example of that. Miller is too passive and Liggins is a defensive specialist only. Harrellson is a senior who plays at times like a sophomore.
This team will still make the tournament but it is kinda getting frustrating to watch. Hopefully Cal will find something that will work come SEC tournament time so we can work toward getting a higher seed.
Topcat
02-06-2011, 04:05 AM
I want to apologize for flaming in this thread. I am a passionate fan but have let my anger thru work cloud my opinions and thoughts on this thread. I am sorry and will try to be a better poster as I used to be in the past. Sorry all UK fans and those I have offended.
TheBigLebowski
02-06-2011, 11:06 AM
HOW BOUT DEM GATORS!!!!
You guys need to take it easy on Calipari. Almost every coach around says that kind of stuff - he just happened to get caught on camera. He's great at what he does and he is the best recruiter in the country not named Billy Donovan.
And, damn - I wish we would have gotten Brandon Knight.
WVRed
02-07-2011, 10:27 AM
HOW BOUT DEM GATORS!!!!
You guys need to take it easy on Calipari. Almost every coach around says that kind of stuff - he just happened to get caught on camera. He's great at what he does and he is the best recruiter in the country not named Billy Donovan.
And, damn - I wish we would have gotten Brandon Knight.
I made the comment that after it happened how when Calipari does it, it gets national press. Coach K is a potty mouth with his players and it gets swept under the rug by ESPN. As long as you're winning I guess....
Don't know if the Donovan best recruiter comment was sarcasm or not, but he's lost his recruiting touch. He's lost two five star in state recruits (Brandon Knight and Austin Rivers) to out of state schools. His top recruit coming in next year is from St Louis (same HS as David Lee). It's a shame because he could have really built on the two national championships and it just seems like Florida has stalled.
Sea Ray
02-08-2011, 02:32 PM
Big game tonight with UT coming to Rupp. Scotty Hopson looks like he will play albeit not at 100%. UK has the starters, UT the depth. I doubt the Volunteers can pull one off at Rupp but we'll see
New York Red
02-09-2011, 04:54 PM
Way too many turnovers, but overall a good game for the Cats last night. We still struggle to put teams away, and the occasional droughts on offense continue, but these are always concerns with a team so young and thin.
UK is now 30-0 at home in the Cal era. Not bad. :beerme:
dabvu2498
02-12-2011, 04:25 PM
I blame the refs. :D
WVRed
02-15-2011, 09:04 PM
Rick Stansbury is officially my least favorite coach of all time. The stunt before the end of the half didn't help either.
dabvu2498
02-15-2011, 11:36 PM
Rick Stansbury is officially my least favorite coach of all time. The stunt before the end of the half didn't help either.
I don't think we'll be seeing him much longer.
cumberlandreds
02-16-2011, 09:16 AM
Rick Stansbury is officially my least favorite coach of all time. The stunt before the end of the half didn't help either.
When I was in college Stansbury was the grad assistant at the same college,Cumberland College in Williamsburg, Kentucky. I would see him out early in the mornings running many days. When he got to Miss State I thought it was neat to have seen a major college coach at his beginnings. But in recent years Stansbury has turned into a real prick. It seems he's always complaining about something and his team is never given a fair shake. It's quite obvious he totally gave in to Sydney and his entourage and that will quite likely bring him down. No, I'm not a fan of his any longer.
WVRed
02-16-2011, 11:22 AM
When I was in college Stansbury was the grad assistant at the same college,Cumberland College in Williamsburg, Kentucky. I would see him out early in the mornings running many days. When he got to Miss State I thought it was neat to have seen a major college coach at his beginnings. But in recent years Stansbury has turned into a real prick. It seems he's always complaining about something and his team is never given a fair shake. It's quite obvious he totally gave in to Sydney and his entourage and that will quite likely bring him down. No, I'm not a fan of his any longer.
I fault Stansbury some for Kanter's being declared ineligible. If Kanter had been declared eligible, it would have given creedence to his comment that Kentucky was shown "favoritism".
That being said, I loved Cal's comment about Dee Bost being a "professional". Stansbury didn't like it too well when Cal alleged one of his players getting favorable treatment by the NCAA.
WVRed
02-16-2011, 02:52 PM
It does bring back memories of another famous meltdown:
YouTube - Mike Davis Ejection at Indiana UK game (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8RxFpVihLqA)
I was able to make it to the game last night... really fun game to attend. I detest Stansbury so I (along with everyone else) went nuts when he got his T. Love Rupp.
http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/b3e7242d75.jpg
WVRed
02-18-2011, 12:54 PM
Just saw where former UK recruit and NC State signee CJ Leslie was suspended for 1 game for "immaturity issues" by Sidney Lowe.
Kinda wonder if this romantic poem has anything to do with it?
http://deadspin.com/#!5763288
Warning: Wear loose fitted clothing and light some candles before reading. :) Probably NSFW
WVRed
02-24-2011, 12:28 PM
I think we've found the perfect nickname for this years team.
"The Unclutchables"
dabvu2498
02-24-2011, 04:08 PM
I think we've found the perfect nickname for this years team.
"The Unclutchables"
My dad says some folks down home are calling em "The Possums." Cause you always see them dead on the road.
Oxblood
02-24-2011, 04:21 PM
What's your opinion on Kentucky in the tournament, good chance to make a deep run or prob 1 and done?
cumberlandreds
02-25-2011, 10:21 AM
I think we've found the perfect nickname for this years team.
"The Unclutchables"
Perfect! I like that one.
cumberlandreds
02-25-2011, 10:23 AM
What's your opinion on Kentucky in the tournament, good chance to make a deep run or prob 1 and done?
Because this team continues to prove they can't get it done down the stretch in tight games I can't see them going far at all. My best guess right now would be 1-1 in both the SEC and NCAA's.
WVRed
02-25-2011, 11:21 AM
Because this team continues to prove they can't get it done down the stretch in tight games I can't see them going far at all. My best guess right now would be 1-1 in both the SEC and NCAA's.
I'm more optimistic, but a lot is going to depend on the draw. Kentucky's problems have come more on the road while Rupp has been automatic. With how UK fans travel to the SEC tournament and the NCAA tournament, every game is going to be a home game.
I think a Saturday finish in the SEC and a Sweet Sixteen in the NCAA is well within reach. Odds are we are going to be a 5 seed right now and depending on the SEC tournament could improve to a 3.
TheBigLebowski
02-26-2011, 04:28 PM
LET'S-GO-GA-TORS!!! (clap, clap, clap-clap-clap)
We're 8 point dogs today...seems about right...we are either going to win a close game or get run out of the gym.
LET'S-GO-GA-TORS!!! (clap, clap, clap-clap-clap)
We're 8 point dogs today...seems about right...we are either going to win a close game or get run out of the gym.
See, I told you guys that Gator basketball fans actually do exist. :D
Nice win for the Cats... if they could manage the next two they would win 2nd in the East and avoid the Thursday game. (Cats own tie-breakers with Vandy/UGA)
dabvu2498
02-26-2011, 08:28 PM
See, I told you guys that Gator basketball fans actually do exist. :D
Nice win for the Cats... if they could manage the next two they would win 2nd in the East and avoid the Thursday game. (Cats own tie-breakers with Vandy/UGA)
What is the next tie-breaker? Division record?
TheBigLebowski
02-27-2011, 10:24 AM
See, I told you guys that Gator basketball fans actually do exist. :D
Nice win for the Cats... if they could manage the next two they would win 2nd in the East and avoid the Thursday game. (Cats own tie-breakers with Vandy/UGA)
You'd be surprised, actually....we don't have the passion for hoops that UK fans do, but it's becoming quite popular. Our program saw a bit of a dip over the past few years due to Billy D's flirtations with the Magic and UK, but I really like our chances to get to the Sweet 16 this year and hopefully be even better next year - we have a nice class coming in and return some key players.
As for the game, I was wrong on both counts - we neither got run out of the gym nor won a close one. We were competitive but had no answer to the UK runs in the 2nd half. I was afraid we'd play too much man to man and that's exactly what we did. Our guys do not fight off screens well and we're also prone to giving perimeter shooters way too much space and UK shoots the 3 too well. Bad combo and it cost us the game.
UK has so much doggone talent...if only you could keep them around for a couple of years you'd be unbeatable. Miller was unreal yesterday...we know all about Knight here in Florida as he is a product of the Sunshine State and we're still bitter he is not wearing our colors...Harrellson is a beast on the boards and we had no answer for him....but I must say this....the refs let him get away with a LOT. Still, UK would have won that game regardless.
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