View Full Version : University of Kentucky Men's Basketball - 6th edition
Biggest non-Reds topic on RZ. Keep it coming, haters and fans. :D
Cedric
08-09-2010, 06:55 PM
Huggins is a better coach than Cal.
Took a dormant UC program and made them elite. Taking an average WVU program and making them elite.
And he schooled Cal in March again.
Joseph
08-09-2010, 07:03 PM
Huggins is a better coach than Cal.
Took a dormant UC program and made them elite. Taking an average WVU program and making them elite.
And he schooled Cal in March again.
At the end of the day its still UC and WVU though. :)
RiverRat13
08-09-2010, 07:38 PM
I would easily take Roy Williams over Calipari.
Three times in Roy's career he has had the most talented team in the nation ('98, '05, '09). He won titles in two of those years. Calipari has had the most talented team in the nation twice ('08 and '10) and failed to win the title either time. Cal will most likely get another chance in '12. If he doesn't get it done with how loaded that roster will be, then I think even Kentucky fans will start to question how good of a coach he really is.
Reds4Life
08-09-2010, 08:06 PM
I would easily take Roy Williams over Calipari.
Three times in Roy's career he has had the most talented team in the nation. He won titles in two of those years ('98, '05, '09) . Calipari has had the most talented team in the nation twice ('08 and '10) and failed to win the title either time. Cal will most likely get another chance in '12. If he doesn't get it done with how loaded that roster will be, then I think even Kentucky fans will start to question how good of a coach he really is.
I agree on Williams. It's laughable when it's "questionable" if Williams is better when he's got 5 final fours and 2 national championships on his resume. Cal has none, of either.
WVRed
08-09-2010, 09:47 PM
You're telling me you would take Calhoun or Self over Cal? That's nuts, IMO. I wouldn't take Cryin' Roy either but you can at least make a decent argument for Roy.
Calhoun: two titles to his credit. Also produced some pretty good quality NBA players.
Bill Self: One title (against Cal) and also an impressive recruiter. He is the complete package. In the national title against Cal, he clearly outcoached him. Self is also younger I believe.
Until Cal wins a title, he isn't going to be in the elite status. He is just like Pitino as a coach. He can recruit and can sell ice to eskimos, but when the game is on the line, sometimes he makes the wrong decisions.
WVRed
08-09-2010, 09:55 PM
I would easily take Roy Williams over Calipari.
Three times in Roy's career he has had the most talented team in the nation ('98, '05, '09). He won titles in two of those years. Calipari has had the most talented team in the nation twice ('08 and '10) and failed to win the title either time. Cal will most likely get another chance in '12. If he doesn't get it done with how loaded that roster will be, then I think even Kentucky fans will start to question how good of a coach he really is.
In defense of the 2010 team, they were carried by three freshmen in the starting lineup, a sophomore, and a junior who might as well have been a sophomore given the injuries (Patterson). The talent got exposed in 2010 by a more seasoned WVU team.
2012 will likely be a different story. Of the players Kentucky has returning, Darius Miller and DeAndre Liggins will be seniors. Doron Lamb, Stacey Poole, and Jon Hood (who I think will surprise people by then) will be there and have some pretty good experience under their belts. The real wildcards could be who stays out of Kanter, Knight, and Terrence Jones. Add in Marquis Teague, Michael Gilchrist, and possibly Anthony Davis and a possible big, and it could be the deepest and most talented team since the 1996 squad.
If Cal hasn't won by 2012, I think there will be more questioning. It won't reach Tubby Smith's level though. Cal plays an uptempo style of play and brings in top recruits, which will give him a free pass with the fans.
Calhoun: two titles to his credit. Also produced some pretty good quality NBA players.
Bill Self: One title (against Cal) and also an impressive recruiter. He is the complete package. In the national title against Cal, he clearly outcoached him. Self is also younger I believe.
Until Cal wins a title, he isn't going to be in the elite status. He is just like Pitino as a coach. He can recruit and can sell ice to eskimos, but when the game is on the line, sometimes he makes the wrong decisions.
So you would rather have Self or Calhoun (at his age and with his health?!) over Cal? Saying Calhoun especially is just nuts.
Self outcoached Cal? I wonder how that end-game would turn out if you replayed it 100 times. I guess Self coached his boys to not miss a single shot in the final 2:12 of the game? Amazing coaching. haha.
During that stretch Kansas made 100% of their shots going 2 for 2 from two point range, 2 for 2 from three point range and 2 for 2 from the free throw line. Why doesn't Self coach his boys to do that every game??? :lol:
Sorry, I think you're off on those two guys. Self is a very good coach, but he's not on Cal's level when it comes to recruiting and saying that he out-coached Cal in the NC game is just wrong, IMO. That Memphis team's inability to hit a free throw finally came back and bit them in the ass. That's why they lost, that, and because Kansas didn't miss a single shot for the final 2:12 of the game.
1. Izzo
2. K
That's where the list ends for me.
I can see the Roy Williams argument and don't have an issue if someone wants to include him on their list above Cal... however, what was Roy's reputation before he got to UNC where he could have 12 All-Americans on every team?
guttle11
08-09-2010, 11:37 PM
That's an extremely simplistic look at the Kansas/Memphis game. There was also, you know, overtime. Bill Self is a much better basketball coach than most people would ever realize, or admit. Now that Kansas' conference situation is stable for the foreseeable future, he's going to be there for many years, and win more than one more title.
Izzo is the best coach in the country for sure. Coach K is 2nd, and I would place Self 3rd, Williams 4th, Boeheim 5th (even if he is a whiner), and Calipari 6th. Matta 7th, Howland 8th, Huggins 9th and Rick Barnes 10th.
Razor Shines
08-10-2010, 12:39 AM
So you would rather have Self or Calhoun (at his age and with his health?!) over Cal? Saying Calhoun especially is just nuts.
Self outcoached Cal? I wonder how that end-game would turn out if you replayed it 100 times. I guess Self coached his boys to not miss a single shot in the final 2:12 of the game? Amazing coaching. haha. Why doesn't Self coach his boys to do that every game??? :lol:
Sorry, I think you're off on those two guys. Self is a very good coach, but he's not on Cal's level when it comes to recruiting and saying that he out-coached Cal in the NC game is just wrong, IMO. That Memphis team's inability to hit a free throw finally came back and bit them in the ass. That's why they lost, that, and because Kansas didn't miss a single shot for the final 2:12 of the game.
1. Izzo
2. K
3. Mike Davis
That's where the list ends for me.
I can see the Roy Williams argument and don't have an issue if someone wants to include him on their list above Cal... however, what was Roy's reputation before he got to UNC where he could have 12 All-Americans on every team?
Uh, you forgot one.
Uh, you forgot one.
HOW did I forget the greatest coach in Hoosier history?!
;)
It's absolutely amazing how close he got to winning a championship...
If he had won that game I wonder if he would still be coaching at IU today.
That's an extremely simplistic look at the Kansas/Memphis game. There was also, you know, overtime. Bill Self is a much better basketball coach than most people would ever realize, or admit. Now that Kansas' conference situation is stable for the foreseeable future, he's going to be there for many years, and win more than one more title.
Izzo is the best coach in the country for sure. Coach K is 2nd, and I would place Self 3rd, Williams 4th, Boeheim 5th (even if he is a whiner), and Calipari 6th. Matta 7th, Howland 8th, Huggins 9th and Rick Barnes 10th.
Barnes over Billy D?
I know you Buckeyes hate everything Gator, but c'mon now...
I'm no big Billy D fan but he's got 2 rings on his fingers and the only things Rick Barnes is known for is taking his name out of the running for jobs he hasn't been offered and coaching underperforming basketball teams.
guttle11
08-10-2010, 01:21 AM
I'm not a huge proponent of titles defining a coach or player, especially in a crap shoot like March Madness, but Donovan is a definite omission. It's impossible to really feel satisfied with a list like that. Too many names to remember. He'd be in the top 10 somewhere, probably just above Howland.
Barnes has been to 18 NCAA tourneys with 3 schools, with 3 sweet sixteens, 2 elite 8s and a final four. That's pretty impressive. No one coaches that long without having some disappointing years. More often than not he gets the most out of what he has, and seeing how his recruiting is better than ever, I think the sky is the limit for Texas in the next decade. On top of that I love his coaching style. Just a personal favorite. Same with Bo Ryan, who maybe has the highest basketball IQ of any coach in America, pro or college. If he could ever get a couple top recruits to buy into his system for 2-3 years, he'd probably win a title.
I really like Bo Ryan. I hate seeing his teams on my side of the bracket in MM, but I really like what he is all about as a coach. Definitely one of the top defensive minds in college bball.
I think it would be interesting if he opened up his team's offensive game a little bit more... too much grind it out for my taste.
WVRed
08-10-2010, 09:17 AM
So you would rather have Self or Calhoun (at his age and with his health?!) over Cal? Saying Calhoun especially is just nuts.
Self outcoached Cal? I wonder how that end-game would turn out if you replayed it 100 times. I guess Self coached his boys to not miss a single shot in the final 2:12 of the game? Amazing coaching. haha. Why doesn't Self coach his boys to do that every game??? :lol:
Sorry, I think you're off on those two guys. Self is a very good coach, but he's not on Cal's level when it comes to recruiting and saying that he out-coached Cal in the NC game is just wrong, IMO. That Memphis team's inability to hit a free throw finally came back and bit them in the ass. That's why they lost, that, and because Kansas didn't miss a single shot for the final 2:12 of the game.
1. Izzo
2. K
That's where the list ends for me.
I can see the Roy Williams argument and don't have an issue if someone wants to include him on their list above Cal... however, what was Roy's reputation before he got to UNC where he could have 12 All-Americans on every team?
I'm not saying I would rather have Calhoun or Self over Cal, just that they are better all-around coaches. Completely left out Jim Boeheim as well. He has a title and is one of the best defensive minds in basketball.
That Memphis team's inability to hit a free throw finally came back and bit them in the ass.
You can replace that with Kentucky in some instances as well. Cal's teams have NEVER been good free throw shooting teams.
I'm not saying I would rather have Calhoun or Self over Cal, just that they are better all-around coaches. Completely left out Jim Boeheim as well. He has a title and is one of the best defensive minds in basketball.
You can replace that with Kentucky in some instances as well. Cal's teams have NEVER been good free throw shooting teams.
Better all around coaches? Disagree with that as well.
This UK team will break that bad free throw shooting mold and will likely be one of if not the best FT shooting teams Cal has ever coached.
Pretty interesting write-up from MJ after observing a couple summer practices.
Predicts DL will start and calls him most improved.
http://kentuckysportsradio.com/?p=57840
gilpdawg
08-12-2010, 04:53 AM
HOW did I forget the greatest coach in Hoosier history?!
;)
It's absolutely amazing how close he got to winning a championship...
If he had won that game I wonder if he would still be coaching at IU today.
I've often wondered that myself. I wouldn't mind the Sampson era being wiped out. Bring me a DeLorean!
WVRed
08-13-2010, 09:13 PM
Looks like the 200k won out.
Davis commits to Kentucky.
Let the hating commence.
Joseph
08-13-2010, 09:38 PM
Looks like the 200k won out.
Davis commits to Kentucky.
Let the hating commence.
I'd have been pissed if that check I gave Cal didn't net us something.
TeamSelig
08-14-2010, 12:10 PM
Wow. Davis/Gilchrist/Teague. Great group of players.
I am so pumped to get to see some real live Kentucky basketball tonight.
If this trip to Canada goes well, I hope they do it every year from now on.
It's an awesome way to integrate new/young players, and let's face it, we'll likely have at least 1-2 impact freshmen every year as long as Cal is coach.
TeamSelig
08-15-2010, 05:15 PM
I'm really disappointed that Kanter won't be playing. From all the crazy hype I've heard, I'd really like to see it.
Edit -
WMR,
Not only has Cal made being a UK fan better, but its making me like the NBA more. There will be tons of stars in the league to follow.
I'm really disappointed that Kanter won't be playing. From all the crazy hype I've heard, I'd really like to see it.
Yeah I would have liked to have seen him as well.
Did you see the World vs. US game that he played in? Pretty much owned Sullinger in that match-up who some services rated as the #1 Center in his class.
It's really not hype with Kanter. I know you weren't using the word in that way, but we usually use the word 'hype' when we don't expect the reality to match up with the word of mouth...
Kanter is legit.
Sure-fire one and doner, IMO, as long as he stays healthy.
WMR,
Not only has Cal made being a UK fan better, but its making me like the NBA more. There will be tons of stars in the league to follow.
No doubt! I told a buddy of mine that I would be for sure watching the Rookie vs. Soph game at the ASB for the first time in forever...
I can't tell you how much I enjoy seeing these stars going into the NBA from Kentucky. Especially kids like DeMarcus Cousins and John Wall who are not only NBA All-Star caliber players, but solid citizens who will be good ambassadors for the program for years to come. (Example: Cousins, Wall, and Bledsoe coming back to work Coach Cal's Rookie Camp this summer.)
Can you imagine the pick-up games they'll be having at the Craft Center over the next few years?? :eek:
Imagine Wall and Rondo going at it, for instance. I really like how Cal encourages former players to work out and play pick-up in Lexington over the summer.
TeamSelig
08-15-2010, 05:27 PM
Yeah I would have liked to have seen him as well.
Did you see the World vs. US game that he played in? Pretty much owned Sullinger in that match-up who some services rated as the #1 Center in his class.
It's really not hype with Kanter. I know you weren't using the word in that way, but we usually use the word 'hype' when we don't expect the reality to match up with the word of mouth...
Kanter is legit.
Sure-fire one and doner, IMO, as long as he stays healthy.
Nope I missed it.
Yeah, I meant I'm excited to see him play since I've heard so many good things about him.
I bring the highlights...
YouTube - Enes Kanter 2010 Nike Hoop Summit highlights (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6YzbhAQGPqk)
WVRed
08-15-2010, 08:18 PM
I'm on vacation this week and visiting my grandparents in the Ashland area, so I've been watching the game.
A few thoughts from the first half:
It's been kinda sloppy, but there will be a lot more dribble drive next season. Considering they are up 8 at the half and its an extremely early exhibition game, this is a good sign.
The two players who have impressed me the most and I believe will be key players this season are Darius Miller and DeAndre Liggins. I wouldn't be shocked if both players are being mentioned for the NBA after this season, especially Liggins. Both players are going to flourish in the dribble drive.
Another player to watch is Jon Hood. He could be a Jon Scheyer type of player who has the size and ability to play PG/SG/SF. He's made strides as well.
This team will not be anywhere near as talented as last years team (don't believe we will see that again for quite some time), but I believe they will play better together as a team and ultimately set a nice nucleus for the following season if enough players return. Add Davis, Teague, and Gilchrist and this team will be a national title favorite.
I should mention this is all without watching Enes Kanter, who is being held out while UK is waiting on a NCAA ruling on his eligibility.
The 2009 Cats aren't more talented than the 2010 version. More top heavy in terms of talent? Definitely. This team's talent is spread much more evenly. I do expect this team to experience more bumps and bruises along the way than the 2009 Cats because they don't have as much overpowering star power, but there is an excellent chance they'll be a tougher out than the 2009 Cats come March.
And the 2011 team should be a considerably better team than 2009. You'll have not only the top 3 players at their position coming in, you'll have veteran leaders with 3 years in the DDMO.
WVRed
08-15-2010, 08:49 PM
The 2009 Cats aren't more talented than the 2010 version. More top heavy in terms of talent? Definitely. This team's talent is spread much more evenly. I do expect this team to experience more bumps and bruises along the way than the 2009 Cats because they don't have as much overpowering star power, but there is an excellent chance they'll be a tougher out than the 2009 Cats come March.
And the 2011 team should be a considerably better team than 2009. You'll have not only the top 3 players at their position coming in, you'll have veteran leaders with 3 years in the DDMO.
I should rephrase that. I don't think they will be anywhere near as flashy as last years team. They will have their moments, but there isn't a John Wall or DeMarcus Cousins type player on this team. Kanter possibly, but that remains to be seen.
Brandon Knight has been the player that I have been impressed with in the second half. He has the ability to take over a game if need be. Ultimately if a game is on the line, I figure the ball will be in his hands.
Hood has had three dunks tonight as well.
Agree on the flashiness part. Our best player is probably going to be Kanter who probably has the least Euro-style game of any Euro player I've ever seen and he is the exact opposite of flashy.
Knight looks like a very, very solid PG who can score when he needs to. Certainly a better shooter than Wall.
WVRed
08-15-2010, 09:31 PM
Agree on the flashiness part. Our best player is probably going to be Kanter who probably has the least Euro-style game of any Euro player I've ever seen and he is the exact opposite of flashy.
Knight looks like a very, very solid PG who can score when he needs to. Certainly a better shooter than Wall.
If UK can manage to keep some of the key pieces on campus for another year, combined with the class coming in, this will be the most talented team top to bottom. Experience and talent meshed together, it will be like the 1996 team all over again.
cumberlandreds
08-16-2010, 07:58 AM
Brandon Knight with ZERO turnovers is amazing!. I don't care who you are playing in your debut game. This team will be more like Cal's team with Memphis. Lots of players between 6-4 and 6-9 who can run the floor and shoot well. Looks like this team will be a lot of fun to watch.
cumberlandreds
08-16-2010, 08:01 AM
I am so pumped to get to see some real live Kentucky basketball tonight.
If this trip to Canada goes well, I hope they do it every year from now on.
It's an awesome way to integrate new/young players, and let's face it, we'll likely have at least 1-2 impact freshmen every year as long as Cal is coach.
A college team can only do this kind of trip once every four years. Yes it would be nice if they could every year. Why Tubby never did this is beyond me? It can do nothing but help a team grow together. Pitino took one team to Italy and Joe B took two or three teams overseas and it always helped them tremendously.
A college team can only do this kind of trip once every four years. Yes it would be nice if they could every year. Why Tubby never did this is beyond me? It can do nothing but help a team grow together. Pitino took one team to Italy and Joe B took two or three teams overseas and it always helped them tremendously.
Didn't know that.
Well, glad to see Cal taking advantage of it regardless.
Good question on Tubby... his teams certainly wouldn't have been hurt by some extra practice time. :eek:
joshnky
08-16-2010, 01:17 PM
Didn't know that.
Well, glad to see Cal taking advantage of it regardless.
Good question on Tubby... his teams certainly wouldn't have been hurt by some extra practice time. :eek:
Isn't this seen as a "dead" period in college basketball? I believe that is the reasoning behind limiting the occurrence of these trips. I imagine a lot of coaches like to have a week or so in August to vacation and spend with their families following the summer camp grind and prior to the start of the fall semester.
cumberlandreds
08-16-2010, 01:39 PM
Terrence Jones is out for the rest of the Canadien trip. He has a cracked rib and will be out until September. He should be just fine when the real practices start.
Isn't this seen as a "dead" period in college basketball? I believe that is the reasoning behind limiting the occurrence of these trips. I imagine a lot of coaches like to have a week or so in August to vacation and spend with their families following the summer camp grind and prior to the start of the fall semester.
Obviously it isn't a totally dead period if the NCAA allows you to schedule these trips once every four years. They said on the telecast last night that last year Thad Matta brought OSU up for the same thing. I guess some coaches aren't interested in going that extra mile? Cal takes a week-long vacation every year in July. I guess you can do a trip like this, find time for your summer vacation, and still get the #1 class... of course, doesn't leave as much time for fine dining, which some coaches apparently cannot live without... :D
Are you really trying to make an excuse for why Tubby couldn't schedule a trip like this in 10 years? :lol:
dabvu2498
08-16-2010, 06:38 PM
A college team can only do this kind of trip once every four years. Yes it would be nice if they could every year. Why Tubby never did this is beyond me? It can do nothing but help a team grow together. Pitino took one team to Italy and Joe B took two or three teams overseas and it always helped them tremendously.
I'd almost swear I remember pictures of one of the Chuck Hayes era teams in France or Greece or somewhere in Europe. I can't be 100% certain on that, but some memory of that does stick out. Could be totally wrong too.
Some teams don't go because of budgetary concerns. Stallings had to pay for Vandy's trip last summer out of his own pocket because the money wasn't in the budget.
I'd say, however, primarily some coaches wouldn't want to risk injury, particularly this close to the start of "real" practice.
If Brandon Knight blows out a knee in Canada, UK fans will be singing a different tune about summer trips.
dabvu2498
08-16-2010, 06:39 PM
Obviously it isn't a totally dead period if the NCAA allows you to schedule these trips once every four years.
I think he meant dead period with regards to recruiting. Which it is.
WVRed
08-16-2010, 08:42 PM
Brandon Knight looking sharp again so far. Harrellson had six blocks early in the first half.
cumberlandreds
08-17-2010, 07:53 AM
I'd almost swear I remember pictures of one of the Chuck Hayes era teams in France or Greece or somewhere in Europe. I can't be 100% certain on that, but some memory of that does stick out. Could be totally wrong too.
Some teams don't go because of budgetary concerns. Stallings had to pay for Vandy's trip last summer out of his own pocket because the money wasn't in the budget.
I'd say, however, primarily some coaches wouldn't want to risk injury, particularly this close to the start of "real" practice.
If Brandon Knight blows out a knee in Canada, UK fans will be singing a different tune about summer trips.
I went to bigbluehistory.net to see if they listed any foreign games during Hayes time. I couldn't find any. That's a very extensive site. It does not list the exhibition games from the time period. Hayes may have been on a national team at that time.It does list the Italy trip in 1995. I also found one when Joe B took his 1975 team to Australia. They played 19 games on that trip and lost only two of them. I'm sure costs are a big reason that make these trips much harder. I read somewhere this trip was only costing UK $35,000. So you may only see trips to Canada in the future.
As far as injuries, that's a good point. But a player could blow his knee out just as easy in a pick up game or in AAU games. Injuries are just something I don't worry about. If they happen, they happen. Frustrating, but nothing you can do about them when they happen.
WVRed
08-18-2010, 11:20 AM
Not sure if this is real or photoshopped, but its still pretty cool:
http://kentuckysportsradio.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/team.jpg
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Dom-Papa/143435052358128?v=wall
:redface:
TeamSelig
08-19-2010, 12:52 PM
:lol:
WVRed
08-19-2010, 07:26 PM
Hot rumor going around is that DeAndre Daniels, who decommitted from Texas earlier this week, is likely going to be reclassified to the class of 2010. Kentucky is recruiting him and he could take the final scholarship for this year.
YouTube - 2010-2011 Kentucky Basketball: "Reloaded" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sw02mnEJSOY&feature=player_embedded)
New York Red
08-25-2010, 11:59 AM
Nice stuff, WMR! :thumbup:
Rivals released their updated 2011 player rankings today...
http://rivals.yahoo.com/Kentucky/football/recruiting/rankings/rank-2288
Revering4Blue
08-25-2010, 09:11 PM
Joe Crawford’s NBA Dream is Alive and Well
http://susanshan.com/2010/08/25/joe-crawfords-nba-dream-alive/
cumberlandreds
08-26-2010, 02:42 PM
Here's UK's 2010-11 schedule hot off the presses. Not too bad. Maui will be a tough tournament. A high noon New Years Eve showdown with little brother. The usual games against UNC and Indiana too with Notre Dame back on the schedule.
http://media.kentucky.com/smedia/2010/08/26/14/2010-11_UK_MBB_Schedule.source.prod_affiliate.79.pdf (http://media.kentucky.com/smedia/2010/08/26/14/2010-11_UK_MBB_Schedule.source.prod_affiliate.79.pdf)
Kyle Wiltjer committed to UK tonight.
25th player overall in the newest Rivals rankings...
http://rivals.yahoo.com/Kentucky/basketball/recruiting/player-Kyle-Wiltjer-76342;_ylt=Al9gv29Yyx4LsbiZFL5gtoMtsZB4
YouTube - Kyle Wiltjer Ultimate Junior Mixtape - 6'9'' class of '2011 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_4lzWKXiHgA&feature=player_embedded)
Video from his junior season. Got some Keith Van Horn in him.
George Foster
08-28-2010, 11:26 PM
Here's UK's 2010-11 schedule hot off the presses. Not too bad. Maui will be a tough tournament. A high noon New Years Eve showdown with little brother. The usual games against UNC and Indiana too with Notre Dame back on the schedule.
http://media.kentucky.com/smedia/2010/08/26/14/2010-11_UK_MBB_Schedule.source.prod_affiliate.79.pdf (http://media.kentucky.com/smedia/2010/08/26/14/2010-11_UK_MBB_Schedule.source.prod_affiliate.79.pdf)
I'm done after this year with my season tickets. They went up another $600 bucks to pay off Billy G. The pre-conference home games are terrible. I have 2 lower arena tickets and with the "K fund" mandatory donation it cost me $192 dollars a game for 20 games including pre-season games. I cannot sell them on the street for $192 dollars because it says only $42 dollars on the tickets. The guy I set beside, who has had season tickets for 45 years gave his up...he's had enough.
With all the games on TV, my kids playing sports, and the economy....I'll stay home next year. In retrospect, I should of done it this year but I wrote the check before I saw the schedule.
WVRed
08-29-2010, 09:05 PM
YouTube - Kyle Wiltjer Ultimate Junior Mixtape - 6'9'' class of '2011 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_4lzWKXiHgA&feature=player_embedded)
Video from his junior season. Got some Keith Van Horn in him.
Reminds me of Scott Padgett.
I think this commitment was a shock to everybody, including Cal. Given everything I have read though, I am glad we are taking Wiltjer over Quincy Miller.
WVRed
08-31-2010, 04:52 AM
http://kentuckysportsradio.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/newcats.bmp
I hope Polson enjoys his first day of middle school next year. :redface:
Kanter looks like the evil dude out of a Rocky movie. He definitely has a future in pro wrestling after he's done playing hoops.
macro
08-31-2010, 08:59 AM
Is that a number zero that Kanter is wearing? If so, would he be the first in program history?
cumberlandreds
08-31-2010, 09:00 AM
Is that a number zero that Kanter is wearing? If so, would he be the first in program history?
Yes I believe he would be the first. Tony Delk wore 00 but not a single 0.
WVRed
09-07-2010, 06:58 PM
Chane Behanon picked Louisville today. Had to figure that was coming after Wiltjer committed.
Hoosier Red
09-07-2010, 09:22 PM
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/08/sports/ncaabasketball/08basketball.html?_r=2&ref=sports
Turkish Team Says It Paid a Top Kentucky Recruit
ISTANBUL — The best recruit in Kentucky’s top-ranked recruiting class, the Turkish center Enes Kanter, received more than $100,000 in cash and benefits over three years from the professional team he played for here, according to the team’s general manager.
Joseph
09-07-2010, 09:25 PM
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/08/sports/ncaabasketball/08basketball.html?_r=2&ref=sports
Turkish Team Says It Paid a Top Kentucky Recruit
ISTANBUL — The best recruit in Kentucky’s top-ranked recruiting class, the Turkish center Enes Kanter, received more than $100,000 in cash and benefits over three years from the professional team he played for here, according to the team’s general manager.
Ruh roh Shaggy.
Hoosier Red
09-07-2010, 09:33 PM
To be fair. Better to find out now, than in April.
I've got to think this hurts the front court quite a bit for Kentucky though.
That Pete Thamel is some great reporter. :lol:
There is no guarantee that the NCAA will clear Kanter. I believe they will, but there are no guarantees when the NCAA gets involved.
NYT as crappy as ever. Love letting the jilted lovers in Turkey disparage the character of a 17 y/o kid in your paper. You would think the egg Thamel got on his and his paper's face from the Bledsoe debacle would have smartened them up a bit... guess it just made them more determined to be boorish.
Hoosier Red
09-07-2010, 09:45 PM
That Pete Thamel is some great reporter. :lol:
So the Turkish GM says that they played $100,000 to UK's top recruit and this is Pete Thamel's fault how?
I'm sure Thamel used some voodoo to trick the GM into saying this.
So the Turkish GM says that they played $100,000 to UK's top recruit and this is Pete Thamel's fault how?
I'm sure Thamel used some voodoo to trick the GM into saying this.
Are you being intentionally obtuse?
Of course the team in Turkey has bad things to say about Kanter. Did you even read the article? The only way they benefit is if they can force him into playing somewhere professionally next season.
Hoosier Red
09-07-2010, 09:48 PM
That Pete Thamel is some great reporter. :lol:
There is no guarantee that the NCAA will clear Kanter. I believe they will, but there are no guarantees when the NCAA gets involved.
NYT as crappy as ever. Love letting the jilted lovers in Turkey disparage the character of a 17 y/o kid in your paper. You would think the egg Thamel got on his and his paper's face from the Bledsoe debacle would have smartened them up a bit... guess it just made them more determined to be boorish.
Egg on their face? I've yet to see one answer as to how this isn't news. AGAIN, to carry on the same argument, SHOW ME ONE THING THAT WAS INCORRECT IN EITHER ARTICLE AND I'LL BE HAPPY TO DEFER TO YOUR NEWS JUDGEMENT.
Tell me why they shouldn't be reporting on this?
Because it's being mean to a 17 year old?
Egg on their face? I've yet to see one answer as to how this isn't news. AGAIN, to carry on the same argument, SHOW ME ONE THING THAT WAS INCORRECT IN EITHER ARTICLE AND I'LL BE HAPPY TO DEFER TO YOUR NEWS JUDGEMENT.
Tell me why they shouldn't be reporting on this?
Because it's being mean to a 17 year old?
Wow, you're not being obtuse intentionally, I can see that now. :(
I'm sure we'll finally find out about the Kentucky connection to that story any day now.
I mean, it WAS a KENTUCKY story, right? :lol:
It amazes me, all these posts, and you still don't comprehend my issue with the NYT and Pete Thamel.
Hoosier Red
09-07-2010, 09:56 PM
Are you being intentionally obtuse?
Of course the team in Turkey has bad things to say about Kanter. Did you even read the article? The only way they benefit is if they can force him into playing somewhere professionally next season.
Certainly some skepticism is warranted when evaluating the Turkish teams intentions.
Just curious though, you've said you believe the NCAA will clear him to play. What evidence being presented would lead you to believe he wouldn't be cleared. I mean won't all evidence have some taint of bias in it?
Same thing as the Bledsoe case, obviously there's a reason to be skeptical about what was being presented against him, but what specifically aside from the big blue jersey should lead you to believe him?
Certainly some skepticism is warranted when evaluating the Turkish teams intentions.
Just curious though, you've said you believe the NCAA will clear him to play. What evidence being presented would lead you to believe he wouldn't be cleared. I mean won't all evidence have some taint of bias in it?
Same thing as the Bledsoe case, obviously there's a reason to be skeptical about what was being presented against him, but what specifically aside from the big blue jersey should lead you to believe him?
From people who are close to the Kanter's, his family is very well-educated and kept meticulous documents concerning his monies received etc. etc. from the foreign clubs...
As far as Bledsoe, it was never about believing or disbelieving, it was about casting aspersions on Kentucky and Cal when neither had a DAMN thing to do with anything concerning monies allegedly paid for rent or whatever.
Hoosier Red
09-07-2010, 10:01 PM
Wow, you're not being obtuse intentionally, I can see that now. :(
I'm sure we'll finally find out about the Kentucky connection to that story any day now.
I mean, it WAS a KENTUCKY story, right? :lol:
It amazes me, all these posts, and you still don't comprehend my issue with the NYT and Pete Thamel.
No, essentially your issue is that Pete Thamel wrote something mean about UK.
Poor Poor UK.
Everybody's so mean to them. And the big bad NYT reporter keeps finding these people and asking them what the mean things about UK are.
Scrap Irony
09-07-2010, 10:03 PM
It's news and I cannot for the life of me see how it's not, WMR.
That said, the Turkish team has an awful lot to gain if Kanter is declared ineligible.
No, essentially your issue is that Pete Thamel wrote something mean about UK.
Poor Poor UK.
Everybody's so mean to them. And the big bad NYT reporter keeps finding these people and asking them what the mean things about UK are.
:lol: You got me.
If he had something LEGITIMATE about dirty stuff going on at UK, I would WANT it brought to light and exposed.
The first article was bad, this one was worse.
I wonder if a national article such as this one makes the NCAA more or less likely to declare Kanter eligible? But Thamel couldn't find someone to give the other side of the story. Yea right. Sounds like he tried really hard.
Hoosier Red
09-07-2010, 10:04 PM
From people who are close to the Kanter's, his family is very well-educated and kept meticulous documents concerning his monies received etc. etc. from the foreign clubs...
As far as Bledsoe, it was never about believing or disbelieving, it was about casting aspersions on Kentucky and Cal when neither had a DAMN thing to do with anything concerning monies allegedly paid for rent or whatever.
But that's the spot where we disagree, and to be honest the rest of the world of people who aren't Kentucky fans seems to agree with me, the NYTimes articles weren't casting aspersions but rather were reporting on things being investigated by the NCAA.
In each case the only reason I know to have some skepticism is because the article gave me some of the very reasons you mentioned.
It's news and I cannot for the life of me see how it's not, WMR.
That said, the Turkish team has an awful lot to gain if Kanter is declared ineligible.
Anything involving UK is news. It's just really crappy the way the NYT and Thamel choose to present it, especially where kids are involved.
Stellar close to the article. I mean, really stellar.
Karakas said he is skeptical of Kanter’s intentions.
“I don’t believe that Enes will be a very good student at school in the States,” he said. “He won’t be a hard worker. I know. I know his fundamentals for school. We know the education that he had before and what he did here in Turkey.
“But he’s a very hot prospect for basketball.”
A decent human being would have left crap like that on the cutting room floor... but not Pete Thamel.
Hoosier Red
09-07-2010, 10:12 PM
Stellar close to the article. I mean, really stellar.
To be fair the copy before the editor(who was secretly pressing for bad things on Kentucky to hide a UCONN scandal) cut it said.
“I don’t believe that Enes will be a very good student at school in the States,” he said. “He won’t be a hard worker. I know. I know his fundamentals for school. We know the education that he had before and what he did here in Turkey.
“But he’s a very hot prospect for basketball.”
Said the mean mean man who should never be trusted because he's bad. Seriously disregard everything from anyone who is Turkish. Listen to John Calipari. He says he's clean.
So it's not really Thamel's fault.
Scrap Irony
09-07-2010, 10:16 PM
Anything involving UK is news. It's just really crappy the way the NYT and Thamel choose to present it, especially where kids are involved.
It's not just UK. It's Kanter possibly being paid by his professional Turkish team. It has nothing to do with Kanter being a kid (though, to be fair, he's almost 20).
There is no shame in reporting it. There is no shame in quoting specific coaches. (Though that quote at the end of the story does kind of show the Turkish side of this story is being a bit snippy.)
Hoosier Red
09-07-2010, 10:16 PM
Stellar close to the article. I mean, really stellar.
A decent human being would have left crap like that on the cutting room floor... but not Pete Thamel.
Oh here we go, back to WMR turning into Moe Syszlack "WON'T SOMEONE PLEASE THINK ABOUT THE CHILDREN."
Why should that be cut? I mean it's a relevant quote from a relevant party involved in the story. Because it insults a player it should be cut?
It's not just UK. It's Kanter possibly being paid by his professional Turkish team. It has nothing to do with Kanter being a kid (though, to be fair, he's almost 20).
There is no shame in reporting it. There is no shame in quoting specific coaches. (Though that quote at the end of the story does kind of show the Turkish side of this story is being a bit snippy.)
Who do you work for, the NYT?
Enes' birthday is May 20, 1992.
You're both wrong on this matter IMO. The good news is that I have zero interest in trying to persuade you otherwise. I've stated my opinion on this latest drivel and that will be all the ones and zeroes I waste on the NYT (until their next love letter from Thamel to UK).
Scrap Irony
09-07-2010, 10:21 PM
Nice. Attack the poster, not the content.
Sad, really. I expected more from you.
Nice. Attack the poster, not the content.
Sad, really. I expected more from you.
How exactly am I attacking you? :lol: I did correct your incorrect information on Enes Kanter.
I typed that I think you're absolutely wrong on this matter. That's not an attack.
Hoosier Red
09-07-2010, 10:23 PM
Who do you work for, the NYT?
Enes' birthday is May 20, 1992.
You're both wrong on this matter IMO. The good news is that I have zero interest in trying to persuade you otherwise. I've stated my opinion on this latest drivel and that will be all the ones and zeroes I waste on the NYT (until their next love letter from Thamel to UK).
Sorry WMR, gets under my skin when people complain about reporters doing their job. Former news writer who had to take crap from a guys dad when I wrote about him getting arrested for getting in a fight. By the way I never said anything about his age, I don't particularly care what age you are, when you agree to play at a division 1 college you have to be ready for anything.
Sorry WMR, gets under my skin when people complain about reporters doing their job. Former news writer who had to take crap from a guys dad when I wrote about him getting arrested for getting in a fight. By the way I never said anything about his age, I don't particularly care what age you are, when you agree to play at a division 1 college you have to be ready for anything.
And that's your opinion. You are certainly entitled to it.
I just disagree with you. No big deal, the Earth will continue to spin on its axis...
Scrap Irony
09-07-2010, 10:29 PM
How exactly am I attacking you? :lol: I did correct your incorrect information on Enes Kanter.
I typed that I think you're absolutely wrong on this matter. That's not an attack.
He IS almost 20. He's an adult. Not a child, as you have intimated.
Hoosier Red
09-07-2010, 10:31 PM
And that's your opinion. You are certainly entitled to it.
I just disagree with you. No big deal, the Earth will continue to spin on its axis...
Fair enough. If you'll allow me one last parting shot. Pete Thamel and the NY Times have nothing personally against Kentucky. As I wrote when the first allegations about Bledsoe came out, the mere fact that the NCAA is investigating makes all the claims "newsworthy."
I'd venture to guess if these things were being alleged against a Duke, UNC, Kansas, or UCLA recruit the article wouldn't change. If you're against allowing adults to trash 17 year olds that's a reasonable critique, but please spare me the bias charge. It's so old and tired and used by every fan base.
He IS almost 20. He's an adult. Not a child, as you have intimated.
Scrap, YOU'RE WRONG. Hehe, he's NOT 20, he's 18.
http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Enes-Kanter-5168/
http://www.euroleague.net/competition/players/showplayer?clubcode=ulk&pcode=000936&seasoncode=e2008
Unless all these websites are wrong. Where are you seeing 20?
Edit: And I'm pretty sure that if he was 20 he'd be in the NBA right now.
Boston Red
09-07-2010, 11:41 PM
This reminds me of the Lasage situation at Louisville in Crum's later years. Except Lasage wasn't very good at basketball anyway.
Ricky P lining up a monster class for 2011??
Looks like hiring that assistant is paying dividends already.
I still hear LOTS of Quincy Miller to Baylor stuff... I think that's where Clifton is trying to push him, for obvious reasons. I do think he's UL's to lose right now.
BTW: Cal recently said that there are two kids who are still listing UK that UK is not recruiting. He can't name them because of NCAA rules but...
it's Tony Wroten and Quincy Miller.
Having UK on your list of schools is great for a recruit, obviously. Just found that sort of interesting.
Nice, fair take by the Sporting News.
http://www.sportingnews.com/ncaa-basketball/story/2010-09-07/calipari-kanter-decision-expected-in-10-14-days
cumberlandreds
09-08-2010, 08:03 AM
UK just needs to walk away from Kanter,IMO. I don't know what is being said is true or not but quite honestly I doubt anyone knows the full truth as to whether he has accepted money or not from the Turkey pro leagues. The risks far outweigh the gains with him. I hope they just wish him well and send back to Turkey so he can get ready fro the NBA next season.
Like someone else said its better this happens now than in March or April. I really don't want to go through forfeiting games because you find out later he has been paid or reimbursed a huge amount of money.
New York Red
09-08-2010, 09:42 AM
Nice, fair take by the Sporting News.
http://www.sportingnews.com/ncaa-basketball/story/2010-09-07/calipari-kanter-decision-expected-in-10-14-days
Good piece by DeCourcey.
I'm torn on the Kanter issue. I want to see him in a UK uniform, because we need him and he's the best freshman big man in the country, IMO. By season's end he may be the best big man in all of college basketball. Surrounded by the kind of talent Calipari brings in, Kanter could be a monster.
But I also would be concerned about there being a "rest of the story" type scenario, in which we learn more later, and then Kanter is declared ineligible after he's already played a season for us. He's more than worth taking a risk on, but I don't want any scenario in which UK is made to forfeit victories.
The Kanter family has plenty of money, so he wouldn't have needed his Turkish team to pay him, other than normal expenses. And there's plenty of reason for the Turkish team to be vindictive and lie about the situation - because they no longer have the kid playing for them. So who knows what the actual truth is here. I'll just be glad when a ruling is made and we can move forward, with or without him.
TeamSelig
09-08-2010, 11:29 AM
I've read that a) his family is rich (no need to be paid) and b) for a while now, his goal has been to come to the US to play NCAA and then go to the NBA
So why would he jeopardize that?
Hoosier Red
09-08-2010, 11:42 AM
Nice, fair take by the Sporting News.
http://www.sportingnews.com/ncaa-basketball/story/2010-09-07/calipari-kanter-decision-expected-in-10-14-days
The one question the NCAA really must ask is this: if Kanter weren’t committed to being a collegian, why would he be here? There’s plenty of money available to him to play for Fenerbahce or another club. He’s gone to an awful lot of trouble to play college basketball. To be a pro, he’d merely have to return home.
That's a bit naive of a take in my opinion, obviously Kanter has a lot to gain from playing for Kentucky(incrased marketability for his NBA draft stock) and the fact that whatever team drafts him won't have to go through the whole Rickey Rubio situation.
Now as you pointed out the guy at Fabernace has all the reason to trash him, he's never going back to that club, on the flip side though, Kanter has every reason to lie if he did take additional money.
So that leaves it to the NCAA to investigate and if they find enough evidence to declare him ineligible. In all honesty, the Turkish team needs better bookkeepers, you'd think it would be pretty easy to point out exactly how much they've paid him.
WOW.
http://kentuckysportsradio.com/?p=59854
Matt Jones being pretty useful for once.
Hoosier Red
09-08-2010, 01:32 PM
WOW.
http://kentuckysportsradio.com/?p=59854
Matt Jones being pretty useful for once.
Okay WMR, you and I have exchanged points on motivations and reasons for skepticism, I hope I've at the very least proven to anyone that reads with an open mind, that I have been and am continually skeptical of anything coming of these charges. I certainly don't take the Turkish clubs words at face value, but also the same test should be applied to the player, to UK, to everyone involved.
So with all that said, Of course a new assistant coach will try to say he was taken out of context. It was clear that he didn't want to speak with Thamel in the quotes, and it's even more clear that he has every reason to say he was being misrepresented.
He said what he said which isn't really damning one way or another unless you're really reaching. But the one thing he doesn't want to do is prove to be a liability to his new employer with regards to attracting talented players. And essentially if he looks like a "snitch" it could hurt his relationships with AAU coaches and "ahem advisors" and he'll be a liability to his current employer.
My main argument back and forth with you is that if we're to apply skepticism to what those accusing the UK players, shouldn't we apply equal skepticism to everyone who says something in support of the UK player?
It's as though whenever someone says something about a UK player or Coach Cal, it is important to always always question the motives, ethics, and biases involved. But whatever Coach Cal says, or a player, or someone speaking in support of a player, you want to take at face value.
For those keeping score at home, that's now TWO articles about UK written by Pete Thamel and published by the NYT where a source within the article later claimed they were misquoted.
Hoosier Red
09-08-2010, 05:50 PM
For those keeping score at home, that's now TWO articles about UK written by Pete Thamel and published by the NYT where a source within the article later claimed they were misquoted.
Taken from the comments of the KSR article;
HMM Says:
September 8th, 2010 at 9:01 am
More than likely he said exactly what he was quoted as saying and didn’t realize how it sounded. He clearly was trying not to talk about it. Just didn’t do a good job.
But I've already said too much. Not a vendetta against Kentucky, just hate people hating on the newspaper profession.
http://www.truebluekentucky.com/index.php/basketball/926-guest-basketball/3585-whats-the-deal-with-enes-kanter.html
Scrap Irony
09-08-2010, 09:09 PM
You do realize you're quoting two web sites dedicated to Kentucky athletics, right?
Just saying, if the Turkish guy has questionable motives, then these guys don't have much room for belief, either.
If you're questioning the NY Times, you've got to question less reliable sources, yes?
You do realize you're quoting two web sites dedicated to Kentucky athletics, right?
Just saying, if the Turkish guy has questionable motives, then these guys don't have much room for belief, either.
If you're questioning the NY Times, you've got to question less reliable sources, yes?
Enes Kanter is 18, right?
Still waiting for your verification on that.
:lol: As to your latest post, as I posted earlier, I am not trying nor am I interested in trying to convince you skeptics of anything. I bring stuff to this thread that I think a UK FAN might be interested in reading. Seriously, give it a rest with the attempted 'gotcha' stuff, please. I really hope you're capable of discerning the differences between an opinion piece in a blog type setting versus a piece of supposed 'serious journalism.' Maybe not? Seems pretty obvious to me. One is about opinions, the other is supposed to be about FACTS. Of course, facts and quotes seem to be rather malleable when they're in Pete Thamel's hands.
BOTH of Pete Thamel's articles concerning UK have had a source later claim that they were misquoted. Focus on that if you can.
Per MM, Darnell Dodson's career at UK is finished. He will not live in the lodge this year and will not be on scholarship.
Newest KSR blog on Kanter situation...
http://kentuckysportsradio.com/?p=59955
— My concern for Kanter’s eligibility is the effect the publicity could have on the situation. As Mike Decourcy said on the radio with me today, the actual facts in the Thamel story were not new to the NCAA or UK. But now the public knows those facts and the perception (aided by shows like PTI and Around the Horn taking superficial looks at the story) is that Kanter is a pro. Whether that makes the NCAA feel it has to justify the decision more is a question that I really wonder about now, even more so than the actual facts. Before the Thamel story, I was confident he would be deemed eligible at some point. Now the question is whether the NCAA will make the same decision with the public watching.
— An interesting perspective on the whole thing came from this article by a former pro player in Europe, the thesis of which is that having played in Europe, the author doesnt trust the Turkish team to tell anyone the truth. Because the team has an incentive to lie and the dealings in the Euro League are notoriously bad (with players often not being paid what they are owed, etc), there is a huge distrust factor from players about all actions of the teams. Thus trusting the Turkish team in this case would be misguided according to the author. A very good read.
— In our neck of the woods, the big story was the accusation of quote fixing by NY Times author Pete Thamel from the Assistant Coach he quoted in the piece. Rodney Crawford talked to me late last night and said that the quotes attributed to him were made about another player, not Kanter, and then used by Thamel to reflect on Kanter. The charge is a serious one and has gotten some national attention, with Gregg Doyel, the Yahoo College Basketball writer and others picking it up. It also had some traction on the college section of USA Today, which wrote about the controversy as well. As of now, Thamel and the Times havent answered the criticism. Our movement to try to make that happen heats up a bit tomorrow.
The bolded part is a question I asked myself in this thread last night...
— Speaking of media, a local writer got himself into this fight in ways that he probably wished in hindsight had never happened. John Clay took a break from telling people to get off his lawn and turn down their music by going after KSR on two different occasions, in a Live Blog and on his Sidelines section of the Herald Leader website. He suggested that the potential Thamel issues with the quotes were no big deal and that the KSR stories werent important because we were a “cheerleader site” for UK. This of course led to a great deal of criticism and soon thereafter, Clay stopped talking and became silent on the subject. What is interesting is that today likely brought his blog the highest number of hits and comments on the site in its history, showcasing how the tables have turned. It used to be that we went after the HL and other entities to get attention and traffic and now he has to do it in order for people to read his site. Ultimately it is actually somewhat sad that Clay’s natural tendency to take up for his fellow writer would overshadow his journalistic integrity on the issue of using quotes correctly, but we shouldnt be surprised. If this blog has taught me one thing, it is that with a couple of exceptions (Doyel, Whitlock, etc), media doesnt go after other media. Anyone could have called as I did and checked up on the NY Times sources in their story. The HL didnt…instead it defended Thamel. What does that tell you about their priorities?
So, so true. Media hacks more interested in defending their own hack brethren rather than finding the truth or doing the right thing.
http://content.usatoday.com/communities/campusrivalry/post/2010/09/assistant-coach-says-his-words-on-enes-kanter-adviser-were-taken-out-of-context-by-new-york-times/1
Hoosier Red
09-09-2010, 12:42 PM
Newest KSR blog on Kanter situation...
http://kentuckysportsradio.com/?p=59955
The bolded part is a question I asked myself in this thread last night...
I think the NCAA's likely to come to the same conclusion with or without Pete Thamel casting light on what has been alleged.
It's not an organization that traditionally cares what people think of it.
As for the source "claiming to be misquoted" I'm going to guess that happens to every reporter on almost every story. I forgot where I read it, but someone said that a journalists greatest skill is getting a source to disclose information that would probably be harmful if it came out.
Now I don't know if the Asst. Coach realized it as soon as he said it, and asked for Thamel to not use it(he'd be under no obligation to honor that request) or if he said it, thought it would be okay and then saw how it looked in print and said he was misquoted or if he was in fact misquoted. But the fact that Thamell's been accused of misquoting a source on two stories, is no stranger than two seperate UK recruits being accused of improperly receiving benefits. In fact it's probably much less strange.
I think the NCAA's likely to come to the same conclusion with or without Pete Thamel casting light on what has been alleged.
It's not an organization that traditionally cares what people think of it.
As for the source "claiming to be misquoted" I'm going to guess that happens to every reporter on almost every story. I forgot where I read it, but someone said that a journalists greatest skill is getting a source to disclose information that would probably be harmful if it came out.
Now I don't know if the Asst. Coach realized it as soon as he said it, and asked for Thamel to not use it(he'd be under no obligation to honor that request) or if he said it, thought it would be okay and then saw how it looked in print and said he was misquoted or if he was in fact misquoted. But the fact that Thamell's been accused of misquoting a source on two stories, is no stranger than two seperate UK recruits being accused of improperly receiving benefits.
Your arguments are getting worse and worse. :lol:
YOU FORGOT WHERE YOU READ IT. :lol: You should call Pete Thamel and ask to be a source on his next hatchet job. ;)
In fact it's probably much less strange.
It is? You figured that out how? You pulled it out of your own bias and state it like it's a fact when the truth is you have no clue whatsoever if that statement is true or not. Hehe, I'm beginning to see why you defend these journalism guys so passionately.
Boston Red
09-09-2010, 02:00 PM
Hatchet job or not by Thamel, do people generally believe Kanter got paid by his Turkish squad or not?
And who is Adrian Wojnarowski's source?
http://twitter.com/WojYahooNBA
"Some top INTL bball officials at USA practice validated on @PeteThamelNYT Kanter probe: "We've all known that kid's already a pro," one said"
Hatchet job or not by Thamel, do people generally believe Kanter got paid by his Turkish squad or not?
And who is Adrian Wojnarowski's source?
http://twitter.com/WojYahooNBA
"Some top INTL bball officials at USA practice validated on @PeteThamelNYT Kanter probe: "We've all known that kid's already a pro," one said"
MM had a great point that touches on this: EVERYONE in the international basketball community has a HUGE vested interest in Enes Kanter not playing college basketball. Don't expect anyone to 'have his back' because he could bring a system to its knees that currently makes European teams a lot of cheddar.
Boston Red
09-09-2010, 02:07 PM
How would Kanter bring anything to its knees? He wouldn't exactly be the first Euro to play college basketball. I don't see how Euro club basketball collapses if Kanter plays for Kentucky.
Does the NCAA then have the same motivation in the other direction? If so, that should help UK in this case.
Hey it's not all bad where the NYT is concerned...
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/09/09/arthur-sulzberger-we-will_n_710251.html?ir=New%20York
Cedric
09-09-2010, 02:10 PM
How would Kanter bring anything to its knees? He wouldn't exactly be the first Euro to play college basketball. I don't see how Euro club basketball collapses if Kanter plays for Kentucky.
Does the NCAA then have the same motivation in the other direction? If so, that should help UK in this case.
No.. It's just a sad case of denial here. Expect to see plenty more of it with Cal coaching his favorite team.
Boston Red
09-09-2010, 02:13 PM
Hey it's not all bad where the NYT is concerned...
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/09/09/arthur-sulzberger-we-will_n_710251.html?ir=New%20York
I'm guessing you didn't read Thamel's article in print...
I'm guessing you didn't read Thamel's article in print...
it will eventually have to be restructured and downsized (or sold to a deep-pocketed Sydney Harmon-type [sic] who runs it at a loss out of love)."
:thumbup: Sounds like downsizing and restructuring is exactly what they need down there at the NYT.
Then again, I would guess their college sports department or whatever they call it got their website more college sport driven clicks in the past 48 hours than they've gotten in the past 2 months, so maybe they've got a shot after all.
Boston Red
09-09-2010, 02:18 PM
I worked with a group looking to buy the Boston Globe from the Times a year or so ago (they decided not to sell). That is obviously a business well beyond being in trouble.
How would Kanter bring anything to its knees? He wouldn't exactly be the first Euro to play college basketball. I don't see how Euro club basketball collapses if Kanter plays for Kentucky.
Does the NCAA then have the same motivation in the other direction? If so, that should help UK in this case.
From MM's blog...
For me, the first thing to look at is motivations. It's absolutely clear as day that EVERYONE involved with International basketball is absolutely 100% opposed to Enes Kanter playing in the NCAA. It has nothing to do with any dislike for Kanter or the NCAA, it has to do with money. If the top talent in the international game were to stop signing contracts with international teams in favor of going to college for a year, those international teams would lose a LARGE pot of gold.... the amounts they are paid when those youngsters finally make it to the NBA. When international players are drafted into the NBA, the teams who hold their rights get a LOT of money to let them go to the NBA. If the youngsters go to college and never sign with the international teams, there IS NO contracts and that means no payday for these teams. Every person associated with International Basketball is going to do anything to make sure Kanter can't play NCAA basketball.
Does the NCAA have a motivation here? Not really, IMO. They make the billions off of their TV deal whether Enes Kanter plays NCAA bball or not. Does it really matter to them if they get more international players into the NCAA? I don't see why it really would. Better international exposure for the NCAA I guess, but again not sure that matters much to them.
Boston Red
09-09-2010, 02:33 PM
Eh, seems pretty weak to me given all the Euros already playing college basketball. I'm sure they'd rather he not play college basketball, but I doubt anyone other than the Turkish club itself is going to go out of its way to say or do anything to keep Kanter out if there is no legit reason for it.
Eh, seems pretty weak to me given all the Euros already playing college basketball. I'm sure they'd rather he not play college basketball, but I doubt anyone other than the Turkish club itself is going to go out of its way to say or do anything to keep Kanter out if there is no legit reason for it.
Well, keep in mind that we're only really talking about the top-top echelon international players here.
You think these european clubs and officials want to make it easy--or even POSSIBLE, if they had their way--for the Ricky Rubios and Enes Kanters of the world to circumvent the system that pays them millions of dollars?
Boston Red
09-09-2010, 02:54 PM
I'm sure they wouldn't be thrilled. But I also doubt this is some sort of conspiracy against Kanter.
If these guys say they think he got paid, the simplest (and most likely) explanation for those comments is that they think he got paid. (Obviously not as simple for the actual team involved as they really do have a huge and immediate motive to lie.)
I'm sure they wouldn't be thrilled. But I also doubt this is some sort of conspiracy against Kanter.
If these guys say they think he got paid, the simplest (and most likely) explanation for those comments is that they think he got paid. (Obviously not as simple for the actual team involved as they really do have a huge and immediate motive to lie.)
Like MM typed, I don't believe it's a conspiracy against Kanter. It's about protecting your business model, plain and simple.
Does it surprise me that an 'international basketball person' wants him labeled as a professional? Hell no.
Boston Red
09-09-2010, 03:05 PM
Taking it the next logical step, though, MM's theory makes no sense. OK, so Kanter is ruled ineligible. The Turkish squad wins. How does that help the rest of the Euro clubs with the next guy? This is a high profile case already, so the next guy knows he has to be more careful in his dealings with the clubs. How does keeping Kanter out of college basketball help the Euro clubs with that guy?
Makes no sense, and it especially makes no sense for them to lie about Kanter.
Taking it the next logical step, though, MM's theory makes no sense. OK, so Kanter is ruled ineligible. The Turkish squad wins. How does that help the rest of the Euro clubs with the next guy? This is a high profile case already, so the next guy knows he has to be more careful in his dealings with the clubs. How does keeping Kanter out of college basketball help the Euro clubs with that guy?
Makes no sense, and it especially makes no sense for them to lie about Kanter.
It lessens the chances of future stud European players trying to leave their 'parent clubs' and come to college in the states unless they totally sever such relationships and never play for European club teams in the first place (which is pretty much impossible because there is no other way for European players to develop their game IN EUROPE without moving to America).
Scrap Irony
09-09-2010, 05:09 PM
Enes Kanter is 18, right?
Still waiting for your verification on that.
:lol: As to your latest post, as I posted earlier, I am not trying nor am I interested in trying to convince you skeptics of anything. I bring stuff to this thread that I think a UK FAN might be interested in reading. Seriously, give it a rest with the attempted 'gotcha' stuff, please. I really hope you're capable of discerning the differences between an opinion piece in a blog type setting versus a piece of supposed 'serious journalism.' Maybe not? Seems pretty obvious to me. One is about opinions, the other is supposed to be about FACTS. Of course, facts and quotes seem to be rather malleable when they're in Pete Thamel's hands.
BOTH of Pete Thamel's articles concerning UK have had a source later claim that they were misquoted. Focus on that if you can.
No "gotcha" attempt at all. Just trying to figure out your logic. (Still struggling with that one. ;))
As to your assertion that claims of misquotes are rare, I can assure they're not. That's one reason reporters record almost everything.
Having said that, it seems strange that Thamel hasn't come out with his recording if it's actually a quote about Kanter. In the past, I know of a couple politician that claimed they were misquoted and threatened suit, but were then (the next day, in fact) given copies of their recorded conversations as "proof". (The corresponding story also severely damaged both party's reputations. Perhaps he's not up to date on Wildcat blogs?
Scrap Irony
09-09-2010, 05:13 PM
Hatchet job or not by Thamel, do people generally believe Kanter got paid by his Turkish squad or not?
And who is Adrian Wojnarowski's source?
http://twitter.com/WojYahooNBA
"Some top INTL bball officials at USA practice validated on @PeteThamelNYT Kanter probe: "We've all known that kid's already a pro," one said"
Depends on what you mean by paid, IMO. I'm sure he got his expenses paid (as is allowed). I think it's likely some padding went on so that he got paid well for expenses.
I don't think he'll be eligible this year. Or perhaps the NCAA will claim he's eligible, then recant later on, after Kanter has led Kentucky to the Final Four.
Wouldn't that be interesting...
I don't think he "made enough" to be considered a pro. It's similar, IMO, to a private school tuition at Oak Hill or another private basketball factory school. Lots of perks, lots of swag, very little cash, and a whole lot of icky gray area about professional athletics.
Hoosier Red
09-09-2010, 05:43 PM
No "gotcha" attempt at all. Just trying to figure out your logic. (Still struggling with that one. ;))
As to your assertion that claims of misquotes are rare, I can assure they're not. That's one reason reporters record almost everything.
Having said that, it seems strange that Thamel hasn't come out with his recording if it's actually a quote about Kanter. In the past, I know of a couple politician that claimed they were misquoted and threatened suit, but were then (the next day, in fact) given copies of their recorded conversations as "proof". (The corresponding story also severely damaged both party's reputations. Perhaps he's not up to date on Wildcat blogs?
WMR, you've had pretty much everyone who has ever been involved in professional journalism tell you that you don't know what you're talking about. Sources claim to be misquoted all the time. If you don't believe that the NY Times has higher professional standards than KSR, I'm sorry that's just your bias showing through.
You've made the assertion that two sources claiming to be misquoted should shed doubt on the stories. While that would be true if we knew for a fact that those sources were 100% accurate in their recollection of the conversations and weren't particularly displeased with how the quotes looked once they were down in print. As it is, I'm going to trust the word of the guy who has a tape recording and/or was taking notes on the conversation as it was happening. I'm guessing he probably remembers it better.
Our intern spoke to the New York Times Sport Editor about the allegation by Duquesne Assistant Rodney Crawford that Pete Thamel misused his quotes about another player and claimed that they were about Enes Kanter. The Times Sports Editor told us, “we stand by our reporting.” He also said that while he couldnt be certain, he did not believe that Thamel taped the interview with Crawford.
So there you go, the Times gave us the answer we asked for. It is up to everyone individually as to what you make of it.
What a surprise, hack Thamel didn't record the conversation. :lol: I'm sure he took notes, though! LOL that's plenty to convince some of our more astute journalism fans. :D
Looks like we've got some better journalists in this thread than employed by the NYT!! :laugh:
And Scrap: HOW OLD IS ENES KANTER??????
Please use your investigative abilities to confirm he is indeed 18 years old because I still haven't seen you admit that you were wrong when you kept doggedly insisting he was 20. ;)
Scrap Irony
09-09-2010, 06:13 PM
Didn't say he was 20, WMR. Said he was close to 20.
Which 18 is.
He's an adult. He's no child. He deserves to be reported on, just as anyone else of age.
But I guess I thought you could figure that out. Guess I was wrong.
Of course, I'm sure someone that's accused someone else of attempting "gotcha" moments on this thread wouldn't stoop so low as to try a "gotcha" moment of their own, but, hey, lookie, lookie:
There you are.
What. A. Surprise.
Boston Red
09-09-2010, 06:14 PM
It lessens the chances of future stud European players trying to leave their 'parent clubs' and come to college in the states unless they totally sever such relationships and never play for European club teams in the first place (which is pretty much impossible because there is no other way for European players to develop their game IN EUROPE without moving to America).
Don't see that. It lessens the chance Kanter plays in the states, but all it does for everyone else is let them know they need to be more careful in their dealings with the club if they want to come to the US and play college ball.
In any event, all I hope is the NCAA gets it right. If he's been paid and is a pro, I hope he's ineligible. If the Turkish team is just trying to screw him, I hope the NCAA figures that out and he gets to play. Pretty hard to tell one way or the other at this point.
Didn't say he was 20, WMR. Said he was close to 20.
Which 18 is.
He's an adult. He's no child. He deserves to be reported on, just as anyone else of age.
But I guess I thought you could figure that out. Guess I was wrong.
Of course, I'm sure someone that's accused someone else of attempting "gotcha" moments on this thread wouldn't stoop so low as to try a "gotcha" moment of their own, but, hey, lookie, lookie:
There you are.
What. A. Surprise.
Well you kept ignoring my question and refusing to admit he's not "ALMOST 20" he JUST TURNED 18. ;)
As important as the truth is to you, I figured you would want the record straight. :)
In any event, all I hope is the NCAA gets it right. If he's been paid and is a pro, I hope he's ineligible. If the Turkish team is just trying to screw him, I hope the NCAA figures that out and he gets to play.
1000% agreed. :thumbup:
Scrap Irony
09-09-2010, 06:22 PM
Well you kept ignoring my question and refusing to admit he's not "ALMOST 20" he JUST TURNED 18. ;)
As important as the truth is to you, I figured you would want the record straight. :)
Isn't 18 almost 20?
Truth is always important, WMR. Provided one can see it. Sometimes, we're just too blinded by obsession and fanatic loyalty to see it.
Isn't 18 almost 20?
Truth is always important, WMR. Provided one can see it. Sometimes, we're just too blinded by obsession and fanatic loyalty to see it.
He's closer to being 17 than he is 19. Or 20.
I guess that last part is aimed at me... maybe you're right, but I don't think so. I've always maintained that if ANYONE had some legitimate dirty dealings going on with UK, Cal, a Kentucky recruit, ANYTHING, I would WANT it brought to light.
Both of you told me only a few posts ago about how any reporter worth his salt records his interviews... now tell me, what does it say when Thamel's own editor DOESN'T KNOW if he recorded his interview or not? (Which sounds like total ass-covering to me.) If a journalist records one, wouldn't he record them all? Isn't that shoddy journalism? He's already had one 'source' renege on a quote and he doesn't record every damn word that he attributes to someone else in print? It stinks to high heaven.
You can claim bias all you want, but that knife cuts two ways.
Scrap Irony
09-09-2010, 08:06 PM
If he didn't record the interview, you can bet your bippy his editor is absolutely reading him the riot act. You wouldn't see that in print because editors keep that stuff behind closed doors.
Should he have recorded his interview? Truthfully, in the two years I spent writing, I never interviewed anyone without having a recorder right by me. Never once did I "forget" to turn it on. That cost me three or four interviews and definitely made people wary, but I was more concerned with getting things right (I tended, without the recorder, to make quotes "fit" grammatically. That made me uneasy.)
I knew some guys (generally older or less inclined to chase after stories) that insisted a recorder cramped their style.
Doesn't mean I was right or wrong. (Also doesn't mean Thamel is right or wrong.)
It does open up possibilities for those inclined to believe in conspiracy theories.
Hoosier Red
09-10-2010, 09:30 AM
From the other stories filed it appears he was in Turkey covering the USA basketball,(which makes sense since he interviewed the Turkish team GM et al.) So he probably was talking to the assistant coach over the phone(may not have had a recorder for that particular phone line. A lot of reporters do so much with their phones, I'm sort of surprised cell phones don't have a recording option available.
But neither here nor there.
I guess this is my question for WMR.
Is it more likely that Thamel;
a) took notes of the conversation as it was going, typed up the notes when he finished the interview, and kept the quotes in a file to refer to when writing the story.
b) Interviewed the coach but didn't bother to take notes, and after the interview didn't bother to type the notes into anything coherent, but rather pulled all the quotes from memory. Oh and despite not really wanting to do the interview, the coach remembered everything exactly as it was asked and answered a week later.
c) Thamel interviewed the coach, has notes, and purposefully took the answers out of context in order to smear Kentucky and Calipari.
WMR, despite your protests, I do not have a love affair with any particular journalist, but it's clear from your posts and accusations that you have little idea as to how the news gathering business works.
I don't doubt that there are journalists who have an agenda against UK, or have their own biases. But it would be more interesting to read if you could actually identify them with something a little more nuanced than, "Thamel wrote something mean about Kentucky. He's biased, he's a hack, he doesn't know what he's doing. The newspaper business sucks."
Scrap Irony
09-10-2010, 11:20 AM
From the other stories filed it appears he was in Turkey covering the USA basketball,(which makes sense since he interviewed the Turkish team GM et al.) So he probably was talking to the assistant coach over the phone(may not have had a recorder for that particular phone line. A lot of reporters do so much with their phones, I'm sort of surprised cell phones don't have a recording option available.
Ah. Never had to go overseas. Didn't know that.
However, I have done a crapload of phone interviews. (Most interviews are done over the phone; it makes subjects more likely to say something they should/shouldn't (depending on your viewpoint).
I always had my tape recorder set up to the phone. It takes less than a minute to do it.
If the current is different and he didn't have a converter, perhaps he ran out of batteries.
From the other stories filed it appears he was in Turkey covering the USA basketball,(which makes sense since he interviewed the Turkish team GM et al.) So he probably was talking to the assistant coach over the phone(may not have had a recorder for that particular phone line. A lot of reporters do so much with their phones, I'm sort of surprised cell phones don't have a recording option available.
But neither here nor there.
I guess this is my question for WMR.
Is it more likely that Thamel;
a) took notes of the conversation as it was going, typed up the notes when he finished the interview, and kept the quotes in a file to refer to when writing the story.
b) Interviewed the coach but didn't bother to take notes, and after the interview didn't bother to type the notes into anything coherent, but rather pulled all the quotes from memory. Oh and despite not really wanting to do the interview, the coach remembered everything exactly as it was asked and answered a week later.
c) Thamel interviewed the coach, has notes, and purposefully took the answers out of context in order to smear Kentucky and Calipari.
WMR, despite your protests, I do not have a love affair with any particular journalist, but it's clear from your posts and accusations that you have little idea as to how the news gathering business works.
I don't doubt that there are journalists who have an agenda against UK, or have their own biases. But it would be more interesting to read if you could actually identify them with something a little more nuanced than, "Thamel wrote something mean about Kentucky. He's biased, he's a hack, he doesn't know what he's doing. The newspaper business sucks."
You still don't get my issue with Thamel (or the journalism business), all these posts later. Jeez. :eek:
I wish you would stop with the weak-ass strawman arguments. You've been doing it for this entire discussion and it's about the weakest and lamest arguing technique known to man.
You either refuse or are simply incapable of getting my issues with these articles through your skull. I'm done.
If he didn't record the interview, you can bet your bippy his editor is absolutely reading him the riot act. You wouldn't see that in print because editors keep that stuff behind closed doors.
Should he have recorded his interview? Truthfully, in the two years I spent writing, I never interviewed anyone without having a recorder right by me. Never once did I "forget" to turn it on. That cost me three or four interviews and definitely made people wary, but I was more concerned with getting things right (I tended, without the recorder, to make quotes "fit" grammatically. That made me uneasy.)
I knew some guys (generally older or less inclined to chase after stories) that insisted a recorder cramped their style.
Doesn't mean I was right or wrong. (Also doesn't mean Thamel is right or wrong.)
It does open up possibilities for those inclined to believe in conspiracy theories.
Hmm, and I bet you never had a source later renege on you either. Thamel is now 0-2.
Sounds like you were a hell of a reporter, too bad Pete Thamel doesn't share your integrity.
I bet that if you HAD for some reason done an interview without a tape recorder and later had the source turn around and bite you on the ass, you sure as hell wouldn't conduct ANY future interviews without that tape recorder rolling... not Pete Thamel. I mean, he WAS overseas after all--although he more than likely interviewed the ass't coach for this story a long time ago while he was still in the states--it's not like he could have put the phone on speaker phone and recorded it that way... (I'm sure someone can come up with an excuse for why he couldn't have reasonably been expected to do that, either. :) ) Bottom line, you do what it takes to get it on tape, ESPECIALLY when you've already had one source claim you misused their words.
Shades of Stephen Glass and Jayson Blair. Anyone who really cares about journalism should be condemning Thamel's tactics, not trying to justify them.
I can tell you what this man would say about not getting your sources cold... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_R._Murrow Now THAT was a newsman.
Maybe we should start talking about Bruce Pearl and the fact that his program is now under investigation by the NCAA. I bet that's a topic everyone can get behind. :)
cumberlandreds
09-10-2010, 01:37 PM
Maybe we should start talking about Bruce Pearl and the fact that his program is now under investigation by the NCAA. I bet that's a topic everyone can get behind. :)
Sounds like Pearl has the same phone plan that Calvin Sampson did.
http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/news/story?id=5552505 (http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/news/story?id=5552505)
Cedric
09-10-2010, 01:44 PM
Maybe we should start talking about Bruce Pearl and the fact that his program is now under investigation by the NCAA. I bet that's a topic everyone can get behind. :)
It's the SEC. People down there care about one thing and it isn't character.
If you aren't cheating down there you aren't trying hard enough.
Joseph
09-10-2010, 03:15 PM
It's the NCAA. People care about one thing and it isn't character.
If you aren't cheating down there you aren't trying hard enough.
Fixed it or you.
Hoosier Red
09-10-2010, 04:34 PM
You still don't get my issue with Thamel (or the journalism business), all these posts later. Jeez. :eek:
I wish you would stop with the weak-ass strawman arguments. You've been doing it for this entire discussion and it's about the weakest and lamest arguing technique known to man.
You either refuse or are simply incapable of getting my issues with these articles through your skull. I'm done.
You'll have to forgive my Indiana education I suppose and enlighten me as to the issue.
So far you've said;
-The NY Times only printed the story on Bledsoe to cover up UConn's recruiting scandal(because the NY Times company policy apparantly was to cover for UConn.) You've also said that the NY Times is a crap paper, and an example of how newspaper business is going down hill. When asked for a specific issue you have with it, you've decided to take the "high road" and not get into it.
-That Pete Thamel doggedly dug through trash cans and was otherwise unscrupulous in his investigation in Eric Bledsoe.
-That Pete Thamel didn't have any real proof of wrongdoing by Bledsoe but just threw an article together with no actual news in order to slander him (or Cal.)
-That Pete Thamel used a quote from one of his sources in a way to demean Enes Kanter's academic integrity, which you've decided is unethical because Kanter is just a "kid." You also seemed to think it unethical to question Eric Bledsoe's grades because he was just a kid and the press shouldn't be demeaning a kid's education.
-That Pete Thamel has been accused by TWO sources of taking their quotes out of context or being misquoted. This you seem to think was a smoking gun because surely no responsible reporter has a source claim to be misquoted. When informed that sources claim to be misquoted all the time you rush right by and say that NO responsible reporter would ever forgo a recorder to play back the interview. When informed that many do but all take notes as they go, you still seem to assume that Thamel is obviously wrong because two sources claimed to be misquoted.
Essentially if there's a general theme to the complaints, it's that Thamel has an agenda to burn Coach Cal or Kentucky or both. When presented with contradictions that would in my mind prove to show some balance to the pieces you've usually laughed them off(You call that balance? was one of the posts as best as I remember.) You've decided that a man who has written two articles in three months about NCAA investigations into UK,(neither of which was factually inaccurate) has a clear agenda to "get" Calipari. This doesn't even get into the weird Pat Forde conspiracy theory that because Thamel used to work at ESPN, Forde was actually funnelling him information.
As I've told you before, the NY Times is where newspaper writers want to end up. I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that any writer who is working for the NY Times, probably doesn't have much time for an agenda other than writing quality articles because when you work for a place that's considered the gold standard of journalism, you are at risk of being knocked off by the next writer.
Scrap Irony
09-10-2010, 04:56 PM
Hmm, and I bet you never had a source later renege on you either. Thamel is now 0-2.
No, I had a bunch of them complain to my editor, to other sportswriters, to each other, to anyone that would listen. People often forget what they said, or they lie.
It's really that simple.
Having said that, Thamel has written two stories about Kentucky prospects/ players without much meat to them. Neither looks to be particularly damning, as Kanter's supposed "salary" would roughly equal a private school education anywhere in America.
The good news for Kentucky fans should be that there is apparently little reporters can find about the program even if it is cheating.
The bad news is that reporters are looking.
WVRed
09-10-2010, 05:56 PM
Fixed it or you.
Coming from Clifton, where fans are still living in the glory days of Huggs, Thugs, and Drugs. :)
macro
09-10-2010, 06:27 PM
It's the SEC. People down there care about one thing and it isn't character.
If you aren't cheating down there you aren't trying hard enough.
Yep, the SEC, and especially Calipari and UK, have cornered the market on cheating and sleazy dealings. It doesn't happen anywhere else.
Cedric
09-11-2010, 12:58 AM
Classic SEC spin.
"Everybody cheats!"
The conference is a joke from the top to the bottom in every sport. It's rotten to the core and luckily it's getting exposed almost daily.
Brutus
09-11-2010, 01:21 AM
That Pete Thamel is some great reporter. :lol:
There is no guarantee that the NCAA will clear Kanter. I believe they will, but there are no guarantees when the NCAA gets involved.
NYT as crappy as ever. Love letting the jilted lovers in Turkey disparage the character of a 17 y/o kid in your paper. You would think the egg Thamel got on his and his paper's face from the Bledsoe debacle would have smartened them up a bit... guess it just made them more determined to be boorish.
Or perhaps what they said happened is a possibility and the paper had sufficient grounds to run with the story. Here you are disparaging a writer's integrity without having any clue whatsoever what really happened.
Brutus
09-11-2010, 01:24 AM
Enes Kanter is 18, right?
Still waiting for your verification on that.
:lol: As to your latest post, as I posted earlier, I am not trying nor am I interested in trying to convince you skeptics of anything. I bring stuff to this thread that I think a UK FAN might be interested in reading. Seriously, give it a rest with the attempted 'gotcha' stuff, please. I really hope you're capable of discerning the differences between an opinion piece in a blog type setting versus a piece of supposed 'serious journalism.' Maybe not? Seems pretty obvious to me. One is about opinions, the other is supposed to be about FACTS. Of course, facts and quotes seem to be rather malleable when they're in Pete Thamel's hands.
BOTH of Pete Thamel's articles concerning UK have had a source later claim that they were misquoted. Focus on that if you can.
He didn't say misquoted. He said "misrepresented."
There's a huge difference. Misquoted means the words were not what he said they were. Misrepresented means he didn't mean it in the way it was presented or sounded.
My experience is that "misrepresented" means, "I said more than I wish I had, and I need to cover my tracks."
Brutus
09-11-2010, 01:26 AM
MM had a great point that touches on this: EVERYONE in the international basketball community has a HUGE vested interest in Enes Kanter not playing college basketball. Don't expect anyone to 'have his back' because he could bring a system to its knees that currently makes European teams a lot of cheddar.
It's only credible if a Kentucky fan website reports it, yes?
Brutus
09-11-2010, 01:28 AM
By the way... I used to cover this stuff for a living. A lot of people I know say this is no shock to coaches and people behind the scenes. This isn't some conspiracy to get Kanter's eligibility taken away. This isn't some jaded former coach sticking it to Kanter. This isn't some misreporting gone bad. It's common place for those types of kids to get paid over in Europe. That's the lay of the land. In fact, it's rare that a kid didn't get paid.
macro
09-11-2010, 02:07 AM
Classic SEC spin.
"Everybody cheats!"
The conference is a joke from the top to the bottom in every sport. It's rotten to the core and luckily it's getting exposed almost daily.
It seems from your last two posts that you're not here to discuss, but rather to incite. Since your opinion of UK, the SEC, and "people down there" are well-known to anyone who has read this series of threads, I'm not sure that continuing to beat the horse really serves any purpose.
Scrap Irony
09-11-2010, 10:27 AM
By the way... I used to cover this stuff for a living. A lot of people I know say this is no shock to coaches and people behind the scenes. This isn't some conspiracy to get Kanter's eligibility taken away. This isn't some jaded former coach sticking it to Kanter. This isn't some misreporting gone bad. It's common place for those types of kids to get paid over in Europe. That's the lay of the land. In fact, it's rare that a kid didn't get paid.
European basketball makes Division I ball look pristine. From 13 and 14 years old, kids are sold into a weird kind of relationship, where teams have all the power. They take kids from all over the country, pay for room, board, and "incidentals", then practice for hours a day.
When the kids get good enough to garner interest, they play them in leagues with professionals, thereby screwing their college eligibility. That way, the NBA is pretty much the only option and teams then get paid back a pretty substantial sum.
That said, America's private school athletic scholarships are suspiciously similar to this. I always wanted to do an expose on, say, a Trinity or an Oak Hill or a Mater Dei (Maryland) or a St. Anthony's (NJ) and see the books. A private school education helps both kid and school. After all, that education will always be a solid bedrock of information, no matter if the kid goes on to the NBA or an MBA.
But I question how much education really goes on at Oak Hill, where kids travel all over the country nine months out of a year. How many of these schools really teach reading, writing, and arithmetic rather than rebounding, reverse pivots, and roll with the pick?
It's all degrees of filth, in the end. Major public high school programs might give a kid some extra help with tutoring and swag. Private schools offer up $30,000 a year in education benefits and swag, and colleges... Well, it's a billion dollar industry, folks. What would you pay for LeBron?
WVRed
09-11-2010, 01:49 PM
But I question how much education really goes on at Oak Hill, where kids travel all over the country nine months out of a year. How many of these schools really teach reading, writing, and arithmetic rather than rebounding, reverse pivots, and roll with the pick?
I think what I would question first is the grades of the players who graduate from Oak Hill who go onto Division 1 college athletics.
UK has been hit or miss with Oak Hill, but mostly success. For every Ron Mercer, Rajon Rondo, or Cliff Hawkins, there is a Rashad Carruth in the mix.
Brutus
09-11-2010, 01:55 PM
European basketball makes Division I ball look pristine. From 13 and 14 years old, kids are sold into a weird kind of relationship, where teams have all the power. They take kids from all over the country, pay for room, board, and "incidentals", then practice for hours a day.
When the kids get good enough to garner interest, they play them in leagues with professionals, thereby screwing their college eligibility. That way, the NBA is pretty much the only option and teams then get paid back a pretty substantial sum.
That said, America's private school athletic scholarships are suspiciously similar to this. I always wanted to do an expose on, say, a Trinity or an Oak Hill or a Mater Dei (Maryland) or a St. Anthony's (NJ) and see the books. A private school education helps both kid and school. After all, that education will always be a solid bedrock of information, no matter if the kid goes on to the NBA or an MBA.
But I question how much education really goes on at Oak Hill, where kids travel all over the country nine months out of a year. How many of these schools really teach reading, writing, and arithmetic rather than rebounding, reverse pivots, and roll with the pick?
It's all degrees of filth, in the end. Major public high school programs might give a kid some extra help with tutoring and swag. Private schools offer up $30,000 a year in education benefits and swag, and colleges... Well, it's a billion dollar industry, folks. What would you pay for LeBron?
Everything I've heard and read is that Steve Smith truly commits his players to the books at Oak Hill. Heck, those kids have a grueling Military schedule they follow when they're home, as opposed to abroad. I think academically, Oak Hill and St. Anthony's (just to mention those couple) are legit. Now obviously I won't say a lot of money doesn't change hands, which is your primary point. But I do respect those programs because they seemingly take education seriously with the kids that enroll.
Scrap Irony
09-11-2010, 02:27 PM
How seriously can you take an education if you're gone for parts of seven months of the school year, as this year's class has?
Between AAU, Under 17 World Championships, traveling teams, and a full high school schedule (including sending kids across the country), there's little chance they're in the classroom, is there?
Perhaps tutors are sent with the team. If so, that's even more cash spent on erstwhile amateur athletes.
I suppose my point is that we ARE the Greeks-- the only difference is that we dress it up a little and mouth the words of education to appease our dirty consciences.
Brutus
09-11-2010, 02:53 PM
How seriously can you take an education if you're gone for parts of seven months of the school year, as this year's class has?
Between AAU, Under 17 World Championships, traveling teams, and a full high school schedule (including sending kids across the country), there's little chance they're in the classroom, is there?
Perhaps tutors are sent with the team. If so, that's even more cash spent on erstwhile amateur athletes.
I suppose my point is that we ARE the Greeks-- the only difference is that we dress it up a little and mouth the words of education to appease our dirty consciences.
Well 3 of the months they're gone they wouldn't be in school anyhow (during the summer). But yes, there are actually tutors sent with the Oak Hill team when they're traveling abroad during basketball season.
There was a thing a few years back on ESPN that went into Oak Hill for a typical week for those kids. It was no picnic. It takes a strong kid to survive that rigorous schedule.
But what you describe is happening with public schools too, not just Oak Hill. Training is becoming a year-round thing. I wouldn't single those schools out because they're really no different than many top public high school programs.
Scrap Irony
09-11-2010, 03:50 PM
Sure, large public schools can be dirty, but, really, they're just playing the percentages. The reason large schools win state championships is that they have more kids in their pool to pull from. It's a matter of logic and math.
The reason private schools win championships is because of money. In essence, they pay players. It's really that simple. If St. X needs a running back for next season, they don't develop one from within. They don't wait for the next generation of solid athletes or pray to the gods of transfer. They scout the local (and not-so-local) talent and offer scholarships to bring it in.
That's a system that's set up to be unfair, IMO, and ripe for abuse. It's abuse right now, though it's couched in terms like "better situation" and "development" and "seeking a better fit".
In the end, it all comes down to cash. Private schools can offer kids so many benefits that public schools cannot.
Okay this has got to go down as one of the biggest thread backfires of all time... "DB did you jump from a plane?"
http://tennessee.rivals.com/showmsg.asp?fid=8&tid=147017329&mid=147017329&sid=879&style=2
I really wonder what effect, if any, UT's self-imposed sanctions will have on penalties imposed by the NCAA?
It seems like this is even worse than Sampson at IU considering Pearl went to such great lengths to mislead NCAA investigators.
The funniest thing is that once the entire peanut gallery from TCP descended on their board, it set a record for most visitors to their men's bball board ever.
Scrap Irony
09-13-2010, 12:59 PM
That thread is disgusting.
It's also the reason UK fans are held in such... esteem by the rest of college basketball.
Hoosier Red
09-13-2010, 01:24 PM
Okay this has got to go down as one of the biggest thread backfires of all time... "DB did you jump from a plane?"
http://tennessee.rivals.com/showmsg.asp?fid=8&tid=147017329&mid=147017329&sid=879&style=2
I really wonder what effect, if any, UT's self-imposed sanctions will have on penalties imposed by the NCAA?
It seems like this is even worse than Sampson at IU considering Pearl went to such great lengths to mislead NCAA investigators.
The funniest thing is that once the entire peanut gallery from TCP descended on their board, it set a record for most visitors to their men's bball board ever.
That's true WMR, though Sampson had the additional mark of having been caught before.
Scrap Irony
09-13-2010, 01:34 PM
Considering last year's major problems with guns and drugs (not to mention the Lane Kiffin-era football violations), I wonder if this will be enough to get UT the dreaded "lack of institutional control" tag.
Ironic, if so, as that's what happened to Illinois when he ratted them out.
TeamSelig
09-13-2010, 03:39 PM
Okay this has got to go down as one of the biggest thread backfires of all time... "DB did you jump from a plane?"
http://tennessee.rivals.com/showmsg.asp?fid=8&tid=147017329&mid=147017329&sid=879&style=2
I really wonder what effect, if any, UT's self-imposed sanctions will have on penalties imposed by the NCAA?
It seems like this is even worse than Sampson at IU considering Pearl went to such great lengths to mislead NCAA investigators.
The funniest thing is that once the entire peanut gallery from TCP descended on their board, it set a record for most visitors to their men's bball board ever.
:lol:
http://www.geekologie.com/2010/09/08/watermelon-of-pain.gif
That thread is disgusting.
It's also the reason UK fans are held in such... esteem by the rest of college basketball.
Oh yeah, no other fans act boorish on the internet. Check out any Rivals message board and you will find the EXACT same level of discourse, finger pointing, and trash talking between rival fan bases.
Really Scrap, you're better than that.
:lol:
http://www.geekologie.com/2010/09/08/watermelon-of-pain.gif
:D
I'll admit the Pearlnocchio GIF made me chuckle.
WVRed
09-13-2010, 04:20 PM
What really made me laugh was the original thread poster instead of replying in the thread started a new one laughing at all the UK responders.
NCAA Infractions Count:
Bruce Pearl: 1
John Calipari: 0
New York Red
09-13-2010, 05:46 PM
Any truth to the rumor that UK and Duke will begin a two-year neutral site series next year, with sites TBA?
WVRed
09-13-2010, 05:56 PM
Any truth to the rumor that UK and Duke will begin a two-year neutral site series next year, with sites TBA?
TBK and KSR havent reported it, so I wouldn't run with it.
One would likely be New York with the other probably being Louisville/Nashville/Cincinnati/Atlanta.
Brutus
09-13-2010, 06:12 PM
What really made me laugh was the original thread poster instead of replying in the thread started a new one laughing at all the UK responders.
NCAA Infractions Count:
Bruce Pearl: 1
John Calipari: 0
The fact that two schools under Calipari's direction have been in trouble (even before Kentucky) is no accident. I realize Calipari has not been made complicit by any NCAA report. However, it is well known that William Wesley is responsible for the strings being pulled behind the scenes and everyone and their brother knows Calipari looks the other way while it's happening. Calipari may not directly be responsible, but he's every bit complicit, absent of actual infractions against him.
That he's never been named is silly. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. He may be good at covering his tracks but it doesn't make him any less clean.
FYI, John Wall and DeMarcus Cousins were both labeled "special talents" i.e. mentally handicapped, in order to gain admission into Kentucky. Now, I don't just blame Calipari for this because it's not unique to Kentucky to pull off, but it's still slippery.
Any truth to the rumor that UK and Duke will begin a two-year neutral site series next year, with sites TBA?
I haven't heard anything about that but it would be very cool.
We never did a home and home with Duke b/c K came out with this asinine demand that Duke get 2 home games to UK's 1 because Cameron is so small (which was obviously never going to happen).
Scrap Irony
09-13-2010, 07:21 PM
The fact that two schools under Calipari's direction have been in trouble (even before Kentucky) is no accident. I realize Calipari has not been made complicit by any NCAA report. However, it is well known that William Wesley is responsible for the strings being pulled behind the scenes and everyone and their brother knows Calipari looks the other way while it's happening. Calipari may not directly be responsible, but he's every bit complicit, absent of actual infractions against him.
That he's never been named is silly. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. He may be good at covering his tracks but it doesn't make him any less clean.
FYI, John Wall and DeMarcus Cousins were both labeled "special talents" i.e. mentally handicapped, in order to gain admission into Kentucky. Now, I don't just blame Calipari for this because it's not unique to Kentucky to pull off, but it's still slippery.
Respectfully, Brutus, horsecrap.
WWW isn't widely known to anyone aside from players and coaches within both the high level high school and AAU circuit. "Everyone" knows WWW cheats? No one, aside from high level players and coaches knows his impact. He's mostly a mentor to a select group of teenagers who are unfamiliar with the pitfalls of Division I, elite talent. He becomes a friend to some of those families and players. He's also friendly to many coaches.
There have been no allegations, no NCAA investigations, no hints of wrongdoing-- only hints and baseless conjecture from people who, frankly, should know better.
As to "special talents", John Wall had a 3.5 GPA in his one year of college. And Demarcus Cousins is among the wittiest and funniest players I have ever heard speak. He's positively Barkley-esque.
I don't know where you get this information, but, really, it's absolutey completely wrong. So wrong that I cannot imagine you were serious. So wrong that I'm hoping you were kidding.
Brutus
09-13-2010, 08:10 PM
Respectfully, Brutus, horsecrap.
WWW isn't widely known to anyone aside from players and coaches within both the high level high school and AAU circuit. "Everyone" knows WWW cheats? No one, aside from high level players and coaches knows his impact. He's mostly a mentor to a select group of teenagers who are unfamiliar with the pitfalls of Division I, elite talent. He becomes a friend to some of those families and players. He's also friendly to many coaches.
There have been no allegations, no NCAA investigations, no hints of wrongdoing-- only hints and baseless conjecture from people who, frankly, should know better.
As to "special talents", John Wall had a 3.5 GPA in his one year of college. And Demarcus Cousins is among the wittiest and funniest players I have ever heard speak. He's positively Barkley-esque.
I don't know where you get this information, but, really, it's absolutey completely wrong. So wrong that I cannot imagine you were serious. So wrong that I'm hoping you were kidding.
No it's not wrong. I used to cover this for a living and learned a lot in getting to know people. Trust me, it's all 100% accurate.
I know a lot of things the average fan doesn't know. And there are so many people that know so much more than I do.
The only "horsecrap" here is that people get all bent out of shape when they have no clue what is really going on behind the scenes. Calipari is a good guy and he's wise to stay one step away from (most of) the shenanigans, but he's every bit complicit in this stuff.
You do know Rose took his ACT in Detroit right? That's where it was flagged. Know who else lives in Detroit?
Also... *laugh* at the GPA comment for John Wall. Gee, a highly-recognized athlete having a good GPA at a athlete factory? Please. That's highly insulting you would even use that as an example.
For one, there is so much pressure on professors to "pass" players like John Wall, you don't want to be the one who doesn't.
Second, because Wall was put through as a "special talent," his course load was given a different treatment than other players.
If you want to take this offline, I'll give you some additional info as to my identity and where this info is coming from. But I promise you, it's all legit.
WVRed
09-13-2010, 09:58 PM
:D
I'll admit the Pearlnocchio GIF made me chuckle.
YouTube - Bruce Pearl - We've Got Weapons (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRTU4egxCMw)
Can't have a Bruce Pearl video without this little Freudian slip. :)
Scrap Irony
09-13-2010, 10:05 PM
Just so I have this right, you're saying both Cousins and Wall are semi-retarded.
Do I have that right?
If so, you're simply off-base.
One of my best friends in this world has interviewed both. He said Wall had star power and was exceptionally bright. His grades are all his. (Looking at the rest of the team and their GPA, it'd be hard to say someone helped them too much.)
He also compared Cousins to Barkley and said he was the best interview he'd ever had. Engaging, bright, witty-- retarded? Not a chance.
I, too, worked as a journalist, Brutus.
I, too, know "lots of people". Do some of those people question WWW? Sure. Is he assuredly dirty?
Not any dirtier than Thad Matta at tOSU. Or K at Duke. Or Roy Williams at UNC. Or any major player in the game.
Brutus
09-13-2010, 10:15 PM
Just so I have this right, you're saying both Cousins and Wall are semi-retarded.
Do I have that right?
If so, you're simply off-base.
One of my best friends in this world has interviewed both. He said Wall had star power and was exceptionally bright. His grades are all his. (Looking at the rest of the team and their GPA, it'd be hard to say someone helped them too much.)
He also compared Cousins to Barkley and said he was the best interview he'd ever had. Engaging, bright, witty-- retarded? Not a chance.
I, too, worked as a journalist, Brutus.
I, too, know "lots of people". Do some of those people question WWW? Sure. Is he assuredly dirty?
Not any dirtier than Thad Matta at tOSU. Or K at Duke. Or Roy Williams at UNC. Or any major player in the game.
I highly encourage you to take this offline if you want to know more. I'm not in the business of degrading players or airing dirty laundry in public.
But I'll give you a hint: reread what I said... did I say they were "semi-retarded?" No... what I said was they were admitted through special talents program. You can make the connection if you try.
Again, instead of telling me how wrong I am without bothering to learn more, I would encourage you to first do due diligence and hear what I have to say. I'm not blowing smoke here.
macro
09-14-2010, 02:02 AM
The fact that two schools under Calipari's direction have been in trouble (even before Kentucky) is no accident. I realize Calipari has not been made complicit by any NCAA report. However, it is well known that William Wesley is responsible for the strings being pulled behind the scenes and everyone and their brother knows Calipari looks the other way while it's happening. Calipari may not directly be responsible, but he's every bit complicit, absent of actual infractions against him.
That he's never been named is silly. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. He may be good at covering his tracks but it doesn't make him any less clean.
FYI, John Wall and DeMarcus Cousins were both labeled "special talents" i.e. mentally handicapped, in order to gain admission into Kentucky. Now, I don't just blame Calipari for this because it's not unique to Kentucky to pull off, but it's still slippery.
I don't think I've ever double quoted myself, but here goes (from the UK Basketball thread, 5th Edition)...
[Arguing about Calipari is] kinda like arguing religion and politics. No one is going to change the other's mind. That being said, unless some new information comes to light about what happened at UMass and/or Memphis, let's keep the discussion on "2010 Kentucky Wildcat's Men's Basketball". If some new information does come to light, then it probably will deserve a thread of its own.Just to reiterate what I said earlier, if Calipari says or does something new and you want to quote it and discuss it, feel free. If your only contribution to the discussion is to bash, troll, dredge up stuff from UMass/Memphis, and/or make baseless predictions about future problems with the program, then please withhold that contribution. Please and thank you (again).
Puffy
09-14-2010, 11:10 AM
John Wall might of been labeled "special talents" but that was more because of the school he attended (Word of God is a new school and is shady) and most likely not because of his academic prowess, as evidenced by his 3.5 GPA while at Kentucky.
dabvu2498
09-14-2010, 02:27 PM
The Eric Bledsoe story comes back to life. Is Pete Thamel still to blame? :D
Conflicting grades recorded on Eric Bledsoe's high school transcript and a night-school grade report from Parker High School call into question whether the basketball star should have been eligible to play his one year at the University of Kentucky.
Bledsoe's four-year transcript shows he made an A in Algebra 3 in night school as a senior by receiving a 90 during each of the two sessions. However, a grade report from those night sessions showed Bledsoe was recorded as making a C average, with a low C recorded in the first session and a low B recorded in the second.
http://www.al.com/sports/index.ssf/2010/09/records_differed_on_bledsoes_p.html?loc=interstiti alskip
Brutus
09-14-2010, 02:48 PM
I don't think I've ever double quoted myself, but here goes (from the UK Basketball thread, 5th Edition)...
I think Wall & Cousins' are quite relevant to the discussion.
Brutus
09-14-2010, 02:51 PM
John Wall might of been labeled "special talents" but that was more because of the school he attended (Word of God is a new school and is shady) and most likely not because of his academic prowess, as evidenced by his 3.5 GPA while at Kentucky.
Wrong.
First, don't be so naive to think GPA as a high profile athlete is indicative of a student's abilities. At every major program I've ever heard of, these high-profile kids often have papers written for them, tutors practically doing their work and in some cases, professors seeing to it (either by choice or by pressure) they get a passing grade.
Second, that's not the case. He was admitted in that capacity because it was the only way to get him through admissions. And this isn't guesswork being done.
Boston Red
09-14-2010, 03:39 PM
The Eric Bledsoe story comes back to life. Is Pete Thamel still to blame? :D
http://www.al.com/sports/index.ssf/2010/09/records_differed_on_bledsoes_p.html?loc=interstiti alskip
The good news, of course, is there was no Final Four for UK this year. So if Bledsoe was ineligible, Calipari won't have to worry about having a Final Four wiped out at three different schools.
Hoosier Red
09-14-2010, 04:35 PM
Wrong.
First, don't be so naive to think GPA as a high profile athlete is indicative of a student's abilities. At every major program I've ever heard of, these high-profile kids often have papers written for them, tutors practically doing their work and in some cases, professors seeing to it (either by choice or by pressure) they get a passing grade.
Second, that's not the case. He was admitted in that capacity because it was the only way to get him through admissions. And this isn't guesswork being done.
There's a logic missing though as to why would Wall get a good grade and the other basketball players didn't. After all, there was NO chance that Wall was coming back so it wouldn't have mattered if he had the Bluto Blutarsky GPA, but especially in the first semester there's no guarantee that Bledsoe and Cousins were going to be gone.(Well maybe Cousins.) and they received terrible grades. The terrible grades in fact made it harder for them to come back even if they had wanted to.
If UK was sophisticated enough to pressure teachers and tutors into making sure John Wall got his grades, wouldn't it have made more sense to make sure Cousins, Bledsoe and the rest of the team got good grades too?
Or maybe it was all part of their plot and we're just supposed to believe this.
Brutus
09-14-2010, 05:01 PM
There's a logic missing though as to why would Wall get a good grade and the other basketball players didn't. After all, there was NO chance that Wall was coming back so it wouldn't have mattered if he had the Bluto Blutarsky GPA, but especially in the first semester there's no guarantee that Bledsoe and Cousins were going to be gone.(Well maybe Cousins.) and they received terrible grades. The terrible grades in fact made it harder for them to come back even if they had wanted to.
If UK was sophisticated enough to pressure teachers and tutors into making sure John Wall got his grades, wouldn't it have made more sense to make sure Cousins, Bledsoe and the rest of the team got good grades too?
Or maybe it was all part of their plot and we're just supposed to believe this.
The average fan is in for a rude awakening if they ever realized how dirty college basketball is behind the scenes. That means recruiting, grade altering, you name it.
Joseph
09-14-2010, 05:19 PM
The Eric Bledsoe story comes back to life. Is Pete Thamel still to blame? :D
http://www.al.com/sports/index.ssf/2010/09/records_differed_on_bledsoes_p.html?loc=interstiti alskip
So kids with a C average can't get into college anymore?
Puffy
09-14-2010, 05:23 PM
The average fan is in for a rude awakening if they ever realized how dirty college basketball is behind the scenes. That means recruiting, grade altering, you name it.
No, we're not. You are acting very condescending for someone who really no one is disagreeing with. I know people who went to SU with Billy Owens and Derrick Coleman. Had some classes with each. Never saw either of them in class but once or twice. Even during tests. Billy Owens was driving around a red corvette in Syracuse the day after SU was eliminated. We all knew this car was not new that day but he'd had it for awhile from an agent or a rep of an agent. None of this is new and you aren't telling any of us anything we don't already know is going on.
HOWEVER, you are accusing Wall of this and there is no evidence to support you. You just keep saying it goes on everywhere - no crap! But John Wall was a "special talent" based on his school. Word of God is not accredited. Therefore he had to clear admissions hurdles to get in and thus he was labeled special talent. It means nothing here - dude got a 3.5 while the rest of the team had a cum GPA of under 2.0!! If teachers, tutors, students, etc were giving him these things then why did they not give the rest of team same things? They had 4 guys drafted in top 20 so it wasn't like Wall was only one with talent so why only cheat for him while letting rest of team get grades Dan Qualye would be embarrassed about?
Universities cheat. We can all agree about that. But you are claiming John Wall was a benefactor of said cheating and you have no proof with regards to him that its true and throwing out all universities cheat is not a fact that is relevant to this instance. Special Talent does not equate cheating. You need more than that
Brutus
09-14-2010, 05:38 PM
No, we're not. You are acting very condescending for someone who really no one is disagreeing with. I know people who went to SU with Billy Owens and Derrick Coleman. Had some classes with each. Never saw either of them in class but once or twice. Even during tests. Billy Owens was driving around a red corvette in Syracuse the day after SU was eliminated. We all knew this car was not new that day but he'd had it for awhile from an agent or a rep of an agent. None of this is new and you aren't telling any of us anything we don't already know is going on.
HOWEVER, you are accusing Wall of this and there is no evidence to support you. You just keep saying it goes on everywhere - no crap! But John Wall was a "special talent" based on his school. Word of God is not accredited. Therefore he had to clear admissions hurdles to get in and thus he was labeled special talent. It means nothing here - dude got a 3.5 while the rest of the team had a cum GPA of under 2.0!! If teachers, tutors, students, etc were giving him these things then why did they not give the rest of team same things? They had 4 guys drafted in top 20 so it wasn't like Wall was only one with talent so why only cheat for him while letting rest of team get grades Dan Qualye would be embarrassed about?
Universities cheat. We can all agree about that. But you are claiming John Wall was a benefactor of said cheating and you have no proof with regards to him that its true and throwing out all universities cheat is not a fact that is relevant to this instance. Special Talent does not equate cheating. You need more than that
I'm claiming the stuff on Wall because of direct knowledge of his situation, not based on the idea that "it happens everywhere."
He was admitted into Kentucky through the special talents program because it was the only way to get him admitted, and not just because of the curriculum at his school, but also because of (hint) test scores.
EDIT: to amend an earlier post, I want to clarify that the special talents program is not just for special ed, but also other individuals possessing, as the name suggests, "special talents."
Here is a good article explaining the loophole in athletics:
http://uwire.com/2010/04/29/granting-exceptions-special-admissions-play-role-in-ncaa-athletics/
Scrap Irony
09-14-2010, 05:49 PM
That loophole has gotten quite a few people into college, especially after Prop 48 came about.
I'm sure of at least 11 guys over four colleges (UK, UL, WKU, and IU) that have been allowed into college because of it.
I didn't know that about Wall, but it's not suprising.
I disagree, however, about what Wall did after he came to UK. He worked. Others in that program didn't.
Chris Marcus, the former WKU center, was a Prop 48 who had to sit out a year. Many, many kids across campus (and fans in Bowling Green) accused him of being ignorant and stupid.
By the time he went pro, Chris was a 3.5 student who could hold his own discussing American Lit in a fairly tough class. He worked at it and got better. I suspect Wall did the same.
Too, if this is only a Calipari Special, why in God's name wouldn't he have done this with his last Memphis PG?
guttle11
09-14-2010, 06:00 PM
Every school gives "exceptions". In fact, Xavier basketball got a player last year because Purdue ran out of their self allotted exceptions and chose to cut that player loose over others. Xavier took him in with an exception.
Giving a student an exception is not just an athletics thing. The amount of athletes that get admitted through those means is dwarfed by the "regular" students admitted because their parents donate money or because a certain student meets certain demos the alumni network likes to see. Just the way it is. If you actually got to analyze the credentials of every student accepted or denied at private universities, most people would have their jaw drop. That's life. I personally know of a kid admitted into one of the best schools in Ohio despite needing to get a GED because he was friends with the President's son. Kid ended up doing well in school because like a lot of kids he was just a lazy teen that grew up as he hit his 20s.
When it comes to sports, the student only has to meet the NCAA standards. Who the school decides to admit and for what reasons is not something the NCAA cares about.
Brutus
09-14-2010, 06:13 PM
That loophole has gotten quite a few people into college, especially after Prop 48 came about.
I'm sure of at least 11 guys over four colleges (UK, UL, WKU, and IU) that have been allowed into college because of it.
I didn't know that about Wall, but it's not suprising.
I disagree, however, about what Wall did after he came to UK. He worked. Others in that program didn't.
Chris Marcus, the former WKU center, was a Prop 48 who had to sit out a year. Many, many kids across campus (and fans in Bowling Green) accused him of being ignorant and stupid.
By the time he went pro, Chris was a 3.5 student who could hold his own discussing American Lit in a fairly tough class. He worked at it and got better. I suspect Wall did the same.
Too, if this is only a Calipari Special, why in God's name wouldn't he have done this with his last Memphis PG?
It's not a Calipari special. And it's also dependent on the cooperation of a school to admit such a player under the pretense of the program. Not all schools are as forgiving about such admittance.
I'm by no means singling out Calipari as the lone user (abuser?) of the program. It's widespread. But the discussion is about Calipari and Kentucky, hence why I'm discussing it here. I had direct knowledge of this particular instance, enough I could have written a story about it if I wanted to, but the spirit didn't move me. I had plenty of good intel and some sources, possibly even a few willing to speak "on the record" but decided the backlash wasn't worth it. I enjoy investigative journalism, but just don't have the desire to be one of those people accused of 'looking' for a story.
As far as Wall, I'll agree to disagree. But your example about Marcus is quite different. He was a situation where he was forced to sit out unless he applied himself academically. Further, he had 3 years in school to get better.
Understand this particular portion of the discussion is not suggesting Calipari is cheating. I want to clarify that for others reading or participating. What I'm discussing here is not cheating. It's an NCAA exemption to players that can't gain admission but have special abilities (playing piano, demonstrate unique traits, etc.) to get enrolled. Wall & Cousins were enrolled under this program. Bledsoe may have been, but I have no knowledge on that.
All I'm saying here is that this program is abused by Kentucky (and many other schools for that matter) and it's very slippery.
Brutus
09-14-2010, 06:15 PM
Every school gives "exceptions". In fact, Xavier basketball got a player last year because Purdue ran out of their self allotted exceptions and chose to cut that player loose over others. Xavier took him in with an exception.
Giving a student an exception is not just an athletics thing. The amount of athletes that get admitted through those means is dwarfed by the "regular" students admitted because their parents donate money or because a certain student meets certain demos the alumni network likes to see. Just the way it is. If you actually got to analyze the credentials of every student accepted or denied at private universities, most people would have their jaw drop. That's life. I personally know of a kid admitted into one of the best schools in Ohio despite needing to get a GED because he was friends with the President's son. Kid ended up doing well in school because like a lot of kids he was just a lazy teen that grew up as he hit his 20s.
When it comes to sports, the student only has to meet the NCAA standards. Who the school decides to admit and for what reasons is not something the NCAA cares about.
Yes. The issue is that, for instance, Kentucky, athletes make up over 90% of the students admitted under this program. That's a tremendous abuse.
That's why when the two best players in an incoming class are used under the program, I think it's a major problem.
guttle11
09-14-2010, 06:32 PM
Yes. The issue is that, for instance, Kentucky, athletes make up over 90% of the students admitted under this program. That's a tremendous abuse.
That's why when the two best players in an incoming class are used under the program, I think it's a major problem.
It's a business, even for state school. The simple truth is that John Wall provides more to the school than Timmy the future dentist from Maysville. That's just life.
Boston Red
09-14-2010, 07:09 PM
I'm not sure why this is an issue for anyone. If you are a scholarship athlete and are eligible under NCAA standards, just about any school is going to let you in. I would wager that approximately 100% of ND's football team wouldn't get into school there if they applied as "normal" students. There was a kid on my high school baseball team admitted to Princeton with something like a 1200 SAT. Kids with 1600 SATs get turned down there.
Brutus
09-14-2010, 07:14 PM
It's a business, even for state school. The simple truth is that John Wall provides more to the school than Timmy the future dentist from Maysville. That's just life.
The "it's a business" excuse may have some validity, but it's still not justified. If that's the case, why have eligibility? Why have standards? Heck, why even have criteria for what constitutes eligibility? Just let everyone be eligible no matter what their grades. Don't have this criteria if it's going to be abused then justified under the guise, "it's a business."
I happen to agree that it's a business. It's about the almighty dollar. That's why I think it's hilarious when any fans criticize the coach of another school for violations, when in reality these things are happening everywhere (not always to the same degree, but nonetheless happening).
But I just don't think it justifies it. If you're going to have standards, apply them and enforce them.
guttle11
09-14-2010, 08:14 PM
The "it's a business" excuse may have some validity, but it's still not justified. If that's the case, why have eligibility? Why have standards? Heck, why even have criteria for what constitutes eligibility? Just let everyone be eligible no matter what their grades. Don't have this criteria if it's going to be abused then justified under the guise, "it's a business."
I happen to agree that it's a business. It's about the almighty dollar. That's why I think it's hilarious when any fans criticize the coach of another school for violations, when in reality these things are happening everywhere (not always to the same degree, but nonetheless happening).
But I just don't think it justifies it. If you're going to have standards, apply them and enforce them.
Easy answer: Everything happens because it's a business. Alums want their degrees to mean something so "regular" students pay full price (a business transaction) while great students are covered by scholarships. The exposure that comes from big time D-1 athletics is invaluable, so great athletes are cut more slack. Basketball players get treated better than golfers and field hockey players.
Ivy League schools will admit a poorer student on scholarship over an equally qualified student with money because the poorer student is more likely to give back after he or she graduates and starts making Ivy League grad money. At the same time a poorer student that would be on full scholarship gets bumped because a wealthy alum will donate money if his son is admitted. Is either one right or wrong? Not really. It's a business, and the school has to sustain itself.
Brutus
09-14-2010, 08:32 PM
Easy answer: Everything happens because it's a business. Alums want their degrees to mean something so "regular" students pay full price (a business transaction) while great students are covered by scholarships. The exposure that comes from big time D-1 athletics is invaluable, so great athletes are cut more slack. Basketball players get treated better than golfers and field hockey players.
Ivy League schools will admit a poorer student on scholarship over an equally qualified student with money because the poorer student is more likely to give back after he or she graduates and starts making Ivy League grad money. At the same time a poorer student that would be on full scholarship gets bumped because a wealthy alum will donate money if his son is admitted. Is either one right or wrong? Not really. It's a business, and the school has to sustain itself.
But that still doesn't change the fact if you're going to have rules, enforce them or do away with them. I get your argument. I'm not even disagreeing with the practice. But in the application and enforcement of admissions of athletes, it's pointless to have these initial eligibility standards if every school is going to abuse them by using the exception that was meant for rare cases. Forget the business stuff for a minute. I am not disagreeing on the "why" aspect. Clearly we know the "why." Either the NCAA needs to bite down on this or completely do away with admissions standards.
KYRedsFan
09-15-2010, 08:47 AM
The Eric Bledsoe story comes back to life. Is Pete Thamel still to blame? :D
http://www.al.com/sports/index.ssf/2010/09/records_differed_on_bledsoes_p.html?loc=interstiti alskip
Yeah, everyone usually gets an A in Algebra III before taking algebra II. Not to mention that it was changed after the fact. Whole thing stinks and NCAA should eradicate the season. Guess you'll get to wear your UK2K shirts again!
Scrap Irony
09-15-2010, 12:01 PM
If you "eradicate" Kentucky's season, would you also "eradicate Kansas' National Championship three years ago? Or any Duke game involving William Avery?
Many, many teams have played players whose academic record has been spotty at best in high school.
Hoosier Red
09-15-2010, 12:24 PM
If you "eradicate" Kentucky's season, would you also "eradicate Kansas' National Championship three years ago? Or any Duke game involving William Avery?
Many, many teams have played players whose academic record has been spotty at best in high school.
But did the NCAA declare them ineligible afterwards?
Now that I've swung on both sides of the fence, I think its silly that the NCAA goes back over a player they admitted as eligible and determine him to be ineligible after he leaves the university.
However, that's how the NCAA operates. Does Calipari lose some support among UK faithful if say the NCAA declares Bledsoe ineligible for 2009-2010 and vacates the wins?
dabvu2498
09-15-2010, 03:04 PM
If you "eradicate" Kentucky's season, would you also "eradicate Kansas' National Championship three years ago? Or any Duke game involving William Avery?
Many, many teams have played players whose academic record has been spotty at best in high school.
Arthur also would have been eligible without the grade change.
Scrap Irony
09-15-2010, 07:29 PM
So, too, would have Bledsoe. His grade went from A to C, IIRC.
(EDIT: Depending on who you talk to. The NY Times is claiming that would have made him ineligible for scholarships to school. Others are not.)
As for Calipari losing support, yeah, there's a faction out there who want to win fair.
But I'm guessing most Kentucky fans are more Al Davis than Tony Dungy.
Hoosier Red
09-15-2010, 09:05 PM
I thought the grade going from a C to an A made him eligible with regards to his ACT score.
He would have been eligible but would have needed a higher ACT score to play his first year.
KYRedsFan
09-15-2010, 10:20 PM
The grade change made him eligible.
http://www.lex18.com/news/kanter-cleared-to-practice
I'm also hearing that Thamel's article, unintentionally, may have actually helped Kanter because the Turkish GM made a statement that the NCAA knows is untrue.
Nothing "revealed" (rehashed) in that Al.com article brought anything to the attention of the NCAA that they did not already know in regards to Eric's case.
http://www.cbssports.com/columns/story/9990638
@thomasbeisner No kidding. I'm actually embarrassed for the media 10:07 AM Sep 15th via TweetDeck in reply to thomasbeisner
Today is the day we pat Pete Thamel on the head and tell him good job, wittle boy. I like most of you guys, but please. Thamel's a tool. 10:07 AM Sep 15th via TweetDeck
And don't DM me, any of you, telling me I'm wrong or to shut up. Screw that noise. He's an ass, and has been WAY before he went after Cal 10:08 AM Sep 15th via TweetDeck
@TheBigLead My beef with Thamel relates to a story he wrote on ILLINOIS. years ago. Here's what I said then: http://www.cbssports.com/columns/story/9990638
In fact, I find it hard to believe John L. Smith is dumb enough to say what he said. Who quoted him, anyway? Jayson Blair?
LOL
Hoosier Red
09-16-2010, 01:55 PM
I did find the Jayson Blair line funny.
But seriously you're saying because Greg Doyel's(Really that's who you want backing you up?) written two articles complaining about the tone of Thamel's articles it proves something?
And to be fair it's not like the New York Times is the only place where people are saying, "How in the hell does Illinois recruit so well when they're absolutely atrocious."
HR, I don't think it proves a damn thing. It just made me laugh. :D
You still have permission to continue with your Thamel for Pulitzer letter-writing campaign. :D
WVRed
09-23-2010, 09:30 PM
The Bledsoe report comes out tomorrow at 4 PM.
http://m2.wnymedia.net/files/2010/04/officerBarbrady.gif
WVRed
09-24-2010, 08:45 PM
The change to Bledsoe's grade was legit and Bledsoe earned it, per the Alabama High School Athletic Association.
Other talk is that Enes could be eligible by December.
Haters commence.
Wow, I can't wait to read Pete Thamel's follow-up article on this situation.
http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/news/story?id=5612393
"Eric Bledsoe was a part of our normal institutional process, the NCAA's normal eligibility cycle and a more extensive secondary review by the NCAA eligibility center as well," Kentucky said in a statement issued Friday night. "We maintain our reliance on the high school, university and NCAA eligibility center for initial eligibility and will continue to do so. At no point was the University of Kentucky under investigation by the NCAA nor had any reason to believe we were ever under investigation."
Brutus
09-24-2010, 10:16 PM
The change to Bledsoe's grade was legit and Bledsoe earned it, per the Alabama High School Athletic Association.
Other talk is that Enes could be eligible by December.
Haters commence.
Technically, they didn't say that it was earned, but couldn't disprove it.
Witherspoon says an investigation found no documentation to justify the improvement. But, he says, an investigation didn't prove that it was improper, either. He added that the report is completes the investigation.
So in other words, it's a hung jury rather than an acquittal.
guttle11
09-25-2010, 12:14 AM
In the NFL they would say there was no irrefutable video evidence. You know, the camera angle wasn't right on the goal line. In the end it was a mucky shade of gray, with no evidence to show exactly what happened. That's where Calipari lives, though, and this won't be the last issue. Not only will people like Thamel keep digging, but Calipari will keep giving Thamel hope because he is what he is. At best he creeps up to the very edge, at worst he dips over and is smart enough to not get caught. The old dog ain't changing tricks now. Round and round we go...
"Eric Bledsoe was a part of our normal institutional process, the NCAA's normal eligibility cycle and a more extensive secondary review by the NCAA eligibility center as well," Kentucky said in a statement issued Friday night. "We maintain our reliance on the high school, university and NCAA eligibility center for initial eligibility and will continue to do so. At no point was the University of Kentucky under investigation by the NCAA nor had any reason to believe we were ever under investigation."
George Foster
09-25-2010, 12:27 AM
The change to Bledsoe's grade was legit and Bledsoe earned it, per the Alabama High School Athletic Association.
Other talk is that Enes could be eligible by December.
Haters commence.
If a teacher want's to give extra credit work, it is up to him or her to do that. The teacher gave the grade, and he sticks by his grade. Case closed. The NCAA can do nothing about it.
Personally, I think the teacher knew, no doubt, that Bledsoe needed a grade to get into college. He gave enough extra credit so he could give him that grade. I think considering the situation, and the kid, he did the right thing. Bledsoe now in the NBA with a contract, has changed his and his familes entire future. He kept a 2.0gpa or better at UK.
Sometimes mercy is a noble thing.
The change to Bledsoe's grade was legit and Bledsoe earned it, per the Alabama High School Athletic Association.
Other talk is that Enes could be eligible by December.
Haters commence.
You know, thinking about this some more, we're lucky that this investigative committee didn't contact any of our wannabe RedsZone insiders! :lol: Might have been a totally different outcome instead of vindication for Eric and his high school teacher. :eek:
If a teacher want's to give extra credit work, it is up to him or her to do that. The teacher gave the grade, and he sticks by his grade. Case closed. The NCAA can do nothing about it.
Personally, I think the teacher knew, no doubt, that Bledsoe needed a grade to get into college. He gave enough extra credit so he could give him that grade. I think considering the situation, and the kid, he did the right thing. Bledsoe now in the NBA with a contract, has changed his and his familes entire future. He kept a 2.0gpa or better at UK.
Sometimes mercy is a noble thing.
:clap:
Wow. You are freaking brilliant. You mean a teach might help a kid with some extra work if he knows it's the difference between going to college and not going? If the teacher further knows that said student grew up living out of a car and had never been given the advantages that those who are so quick to JUDGE HIM were afforded? (That's called cowardice, btw.)
Nah, we NEVER see a teacher taking an interest in a student's future anywhere else in this country. No, it's just another example of Cal's shadiness. :lol: :help:
George Foster
09-25-2010, 12:37 AM
Wow. You are freaking brilliant. You mean a teach might help a kid with some extra work if he knows it's the difference between going to college and not going? If the teacher further knows that said student grew up living out of a car and had never been given the advantages that those who are so quick to JUDGE HIM were afforded? (That's called cowardice, btw.)
Nah, we NEVER see a teacher taking an interest in a student's future anywhere else in this country. No, it's just another example of Cal's shadiness. :lol: :help:
The teacher sticks by his grade, case closed. It's none of our business.
Brutus
09-25-2010, 01:34 AM
You know, thinking about this some more, we're lucky that this investigative committee didn't contact any of our wannabe RedsZone insiders! :lol: Might have been a totally different outcome instead of vindication for Eric and his high school teacher. :eek:
If charges are dropped on a suspect, and the prosecutor comes out and says, "we can't find any evidence that it didn't happen, but we can't find any that it did," how much vindication is that really? If I'm a suspect, I'm relieved that I won't be tried or found guilty, but man that's not a very vindicating statement right there. That's essentially saying, 'we think you're guilty but we can't prove it.'
guttle11
09-25-2010, 01:47 AM
I hardly would call it "vindication". The independent investigators basically said that the grades were changed and no one can show proof as to why it was done. It just was done. That's all we know, the rest is hearsay from both sides. They even went to audit grades at a previous school, but couldn't find any because no one knew where the info was. Law states to hold the papers for three years, and two + years later the school is closed and the books disappeared. It's in the report.
Vindication? That's an odd definition. I don't think I would call grade changes that can't be verified or proven to be unjust and missing grade books vindication. It's a hollow ending.
Other talk is that Enes could be eligible by December.
Haters commence.
My money is on Kanter being eligible. He may have to sit out a few games, but I could see him being back by the UNC game.
Hoosier Red
09-26-2010, 06:32 PM
Wouldn't be surprised if you're right WMR. My guess is 4 games max. When do they play UNC?
Congrats on Bledsoe's grade being deemed legitimate. Not sure it matters so much by the time he's in the NBA, but I'm guessing it's better to not be responsible for vacating a season.
You'll remember that I predicted nothing would come of it, but simply was defending an author's right to find out what the NCAA was investigating, obviously there was some meat on the bone even if it was impossible to prove actual malfeasance.
Scrap Irony
09-26-2010, 06:58 PM
As a teacher, I've "given" many kids a couple points so that they pass. On occasion, I've given a couple points for an A or B, depending on work ethic.
If Bledsoe did indeed earn a C, but was given an A, I would hope he did work for it.
I don't know of any teacher going so far as to jump a kid's overall grade the 12 to 20points it would take to go from C to A.
http://kentuckysportsradio.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/monnite4-1024x768.jpg
WVRed
09-28-2010, 11:20 PM
http://kentuckysportsradio.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/monnite4-1024x768.jpg
This has seriously taken on a life of its own.
I wonder which is more popular, the Free Enes movement or the John Wall dance?
This has seriously taken on a life of its own.
I wonder which is more popular, the Free Enes movement or the John Wall dance?
YouTube - CALIPARI CALIPARI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=al3EUPOp9hk)
Sea Ray
09-29-2010, 10:36 AM
Only at Kentucky will you find more postings on the basketball thread than the football one in late Sept...
Only at Kentucky will you find more postings on the basketball thread than the football one in late Sept...
No real surprise. It's a basketball school.
No real surprise. It's a basketball school.
Football is fun and all, but we both know the real season starts in November, don't we? :D :thumbup:
Football is fun and all, but we both know the real season starts in November, don't we? :D :thumbup:
Yes we do. :)
New York Red
09-29-2010, 05:06 PM
Only at UK would someone travel 1000 miles to camp out with a bunch of knuckleheads dressed in blue, just to get vouchers for tickets to a practice. Yep, that would be me - and our campsight is already set up ... LOL. Our family and friends have been doing this for over 25 years.
New York Reds' vacation agenda:
Sep 25 - Jackson 100 stock car race at Brownstown Speedway, Indiana
Sep 28 - Reds division clincher at Great American Ballpark
Sep 29 - Oct 2 ... Big Blue Madness camping
Oct 9 - UK vs Auburn football game
My girlfriend (who is from NY and not a huge sports fan) thinks I'm insane. :p:
Joseph
09-29-2010, 08:45 PM
Only at UK would someone travel 1000 miles to camp out with a bunch of knuckleheads dressed in blue, just to get vouchers for tickets to a practice. Yep, that would be me - and our campsight is already set up ... LOL. Our family and friends have been doing this for over 25 years.
New York Reds' vacation agenda:
Sep 25 - Jackson 100 stock car race at Brownstown Speedway, Indiana
Sep 28 - Reds division clincher at Great American Ballpark
Sep 29 - Oct 2 ... Big Blue Madness camping
Oct 9 - UK vs Auburn football game
My girlfriend (who is from NY and not a huge sports fan) thinks I'm insane. :p:
You are. :)
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/dickvitale/news/story?id=5607445
I often think about the way the Derrick Rose situation was handled at Memphis. The NCAA Eligibility Center had declared Rose eligible. He then led the Tigers to the national championship game. Not a school in America would have sat Rose down when he was cleared! But after other information surfaced, the NCAA asked the school to vacate that Final Four appearance.
Give me a break! You have to pay the price as well. The NCAA has to look in the mirror and question its handling of the Rose situation. After declaring him eligible, how does it turn around and reverse that decision? The act should have been handled with a financial punishment, in my opinion.
Nice article from Dicky V.
gilpdawg
09-30-2010, 08:01 AM
The average fan is in for a rude awakening if they ever realized how dirty college basketball is behind the scenes. That means recruiting, grade altering, you name it.
Exactly. Ever read that book about Jimmy V at NC State? Some crazy stuff going on there and that was 25 years ago.
gilpdawg
09-30-2010, 08:08 AM
I often think about the way the Derrick Rose situation was handled at Memphis. The NCAA Eligibility Center had declared Rose eligible. He then led the Tigers to the national championship game. Not a school in America would have sat Rose down when he was cleared! But after other information surfaced, the NCAA asked the school to vacate that Final Four appearance.
Give me a break! You have to pay the price as well. The NCAA has to look in the mirror and question its handling of the Rose situation. After declaring him eligible, how does it turn around and reverse that decision? The act should have been handled with a financial punishment, in my opinion.
Not a Cal fan, but I totally agree with this. You can't clear someone to play, then renege after the fact, and then punish the school. Once you're eligible, then you're eligible.
RiverRat13
09-30-2010, 09:10 AM
Not a Cal fan, but I totally agree with this. You can't clear someone to play, then renege after the fact, and then punish the school. Once you're eligible, then you're eligible.
So any kid can have someone else take his ACT/SAT for him, then as long as the NCAA doesn't find out before he is cleared he should be eligible???
I don't think so.
Hoosier Red
09-30-2010, 11:12 AM
It's a fine line to walk. I tend to agree with him that if you are not caught in the act so to speak than there's no point to punishing after the fact. On the other hand, it makes more sense than just going after all the schools right away with an undermanned and underfunded staff and then letting a flood of questionable things skate by.
The optimal solution to me would be to have an NCAA eligibility clearinghouse with enough manpower to successfully evaluate eligibility before the season and an enforcement squad with enough manpower to enforce anything through the season. If both are large enough to handle all the eligibility questions effectively, than if something is discovered after the fact, Se la vie.
I think that the NCAA actually plays this game on purpose to a degree.
When you remember the NCAA isn't just some monolithic institution, but is composed entirely of the schools.
-Consider the schools who probably don't want the central clearinghouse to be TOO good at catching ineligible athletes, because who knows what they'll find in our closet.
-Consider the alternative to guys like Erick Bledsoe playing because they're "conditionally eligible" is them not playing at all. Bledsoe still would have gone to the NBA after his one year wait, and would have done nothing for the NCAA.
-Consider that having coaches(Who are the real stars) that are seen by the media as slimy creates a good vs evil narrative that can be used to increase viewership of any game. If you have coaches deemed on the side of good,(Izzo, Coach K, Williams?) and coaches seen as bad/slimy/evil(Huggins, Calipari, Matta?) than any game between those two takes on a new level of importance.
So every once in a while, the NCAA "discovers" new evidence, and puts a school on probation or vacates a season(wait it's Memphis who we don't really care about anyway? So much the better! Huzzah!) This hopefully keeps the rest of the schools somewhat honest(not exceedingly stupid) and shows an image of the NCAA trying to protect the "integrity" of college athletics.
Razor Shines
09-30-2010, 04:09 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/dickvitale/news/story?id=5607445
Nice article from Dicky V.
WMR compliments Dicky V???? That's historic. The media must have finally brainwashed him, pretty soon he'll be talking about how great of a coach Krzyzewski is.
WMR compliments Dicky V???? That's historic. The media must have finally brainwashed him, pretty soon he'll be talking about how great of a coach Krzyzewski is.
He's wearing a Duke jersey as we speak.
TeamSelig
09-30-2010, 04:21 PM
lol
YouTube - FREE ENES- Rich Breezy (Chambliss Production) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XFXzZt3O6Cw)
Photos of MBB team handing out breakfast to BBM campers...
http://www.ukathletics.com/view.gal?id=77578
WMR compliments Dicky V???? That's historic. The media must have finally brainwashed him, pretty soon he'll be talking about how great of a coach Krzyzewski is.
He's wearing a Duke jersey as we speak.
:lol:
Hey I heard Crean just got a commitment from the top 5th grader in the nation. ;)
BTW: That Lyle kid is good, but he's no Michael Avery. :D
Scrap Irony
09-30-2010, 09:48 PM
...The optimal solution to me would be to have an NCAA eligibility clearinghouse with enough manpower to successfully evaluate eligibility before the season and an enforcement squad with enough manpower to enforce anything through the season. If both are large enough to handle all the eligibility questions effectively, than if something is discovered after the fact, Se la vie.
I think that the NCAA actually plays this game on purpose to a degree.
When you remember the NCAA isn't just some monolithic institution, but is composed entirely of the schools.
-Consider the schools who probably don't want the central clearinghouse to be TOO good at catching ineligible athletes, because who knows what they'll find in our closet.
-Consider the alternative to guys like Erick Bledsoe playing because they're "conditionally eligible" is them not playing at all. Bledsoe still would have gone to the NBA after his one year wait, and would have done nothing for the NCAA.
-Consider that having coaches(Who are the real stars) that are seen by the media as slimy creates a good vs evil narrative that can be used to increase viewership of any game. If you have coaches deemed on the side of good,(Izzo, Coach K, Williams?) and coaches seen as bad/slimy/evil(Huggins, Calipari, Matta?) than any game between those two takes on a new level of importance.
So every once in a while, the NCAA "discovers" new evidence, and puts a school on probation or vacates a season(wait it's Memphis who we don't really care about anyway? So much the better! Huzzah!) This hopefully keeps the rest of the schools somewhat honest(not exceedingly stupid) and shows an image of the NCAA trying to protect the "integrity" of college athletics.
All the NCAA need do is hire 50 more investigators. It would speed up every investigation, keep the programs a bit more honest, and even help the economy.
But the NCAA is really, really happy with the status quo and the blind eye justice they've been handing out since they were organized.
If your program isn't obviously and eggregiously cheating in full public view (and you don't bald-faced lie to investigators), you're going to get away with virtually anything you want to do.
http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/55166ad90d.jpg (http://www.freeimagehosting.net/)
Yea son!! :D
gilpdawg
10-04-2010, 12:30 AM
So any kid can have someone else take his ACT/SAT for him, then as long as the NCAA doesn't find out before he is cleared he should be eligible???
I don't think so.
In that case, the kid would be accountable. How the heck would the school know? Unless you want representatives from the universities to be sitting in the room when everyone takes their test.
TeamSelig
10-04-2010, 11:03 AM
YouTube - John Wall 360 Layup (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IQLHCqSwpsE&feature=player_embedded)
Brutus
10-05-2010, 05:34 PM
All the NCAA need do is hire 50 more investigators. It would speed up every investigation, keep the programs a bit more honest, and even help the economy.
But the NCAA is really, really happy with the status quo and the blind eye justice they've been handing out since they were organized.
If your program isn't obviously and eggregiously cheating in full public view (and you don't bald-faced lie to investigators), you're going to get away with virtually anything you want to do.
The problem is they can't afford to hire more investigators without taking a bigger piece of the NCAA revenue pie, which requires presidents to sign off. Do you think institutions are going to allow more of their money to be withheld to catch cheaters? I doubt it, especially since they know those in glass houses can't throw stones.
I really think the NCAA does like to turn a blind eye in some cases, as they don't want the level of full-on corruption get exposed. But I also think they'd go after 80% of these cases more vigorously if they had the manpower. And since they're limited to a set percentage of admin costs they can pluck from the NCAA basketball revenue and postseason media rights, their primary sources of income, their hands are tied.
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