After all that noise about getting swept by the Cards.....

[mlh1981]

.......we have only lost one game in the standings since the beginning of the week.

It's not how we play against the Cards that matters. What's done is done, and the majority of our contests vs. them have already happened. Certainly, if we finish a game or two out, we can look at missed opportunities against them, but right now, after examining the so called "fallout" from all that.....we aren't looking too bad.

We swept a Marlins team that isn't halfway bad, beasting against one of the best pitchers in the process, and the horrific Cubs take 2 out of 3 against the Cards. Good luck figuring THIS game out :p:

[zacharync]

Agreed. I am ecstatic with how this series went. I was particularly pleased with how Homer stepped up and threw 6 shutout innings, despite his pitch count.

I am anxiously anticipating the roster moves that are about to occur over the next couple of weeks.

[redsfan_12]

Welp, cant rebound any better than we did :D

[Vottomatic]

Cardinals 1 game back.

And they thought they'd never see us again when they left on Wednesday. :D

[HARP3R]

Cardinals 1 game back.

And they thought they'd never see us again when they left on Wednesday. :D

THAT'S simply not true.

All the fans here in St.Louis know the Reds are here to stay. Walt sure knows how to build a winning club. Good pitching and great defense. It doesn't hurt that the Reds are a strong offensive club either.

Even though there aren't many of us here in St.Louis that likes the Reds, most of us can recognize a good ball club, which the Reds clearly are.

The coming west-coast road trip will tell us all a lot about the Reds. I'm excited to see how they play and figure out what those guys are really made of.

[Señor Rojo]

THAT'S simply not true.

All the fans here in St.Louis know the Reds are here to stay. Walt sure knows how to build a winning club. Good pitching and great defense. It doesn't hurt that the Reds are a strong offensive club either.

If you don't mind, can I pick your brain about what people in St. Louis thought of Jocketty leaving the Cardinals? What lead to him leaving and how did people react to it? I've been curious about this since the Reds hired him.

[HARP3R]

If you don't mind, can I pick your brain about what people in St. Louis thought of Jocketty leaving the Cardinals? What lead to him leaving and how did people react to it? I've been curious about this since the Reds hired him.

It was pretty mixed.

There were a lot of people that were upset about Walt leaving, but only really because no one knew anything about Mozeliak, and because WJ had been here for so long. Jocketty brought in a lot of big names to St.Louis, which brought a lot of respect from the fans, but people who followed the Cards' system as well as the big club could really see Walt's fatal flaw: a depleted farm system.

The Cardinals, under Walt, ALWAYS traded away a lot of prospects to bring in the big-name trade deadline guys (i.e. McGwire, Mulder, Rolen, Edmonds, Walker, etcetera). I don't know if Walt just didn't believe a strong farm system was a must when building an organization with some fiscal flexibility, or if he just felt those pieces were necessary, but he left a farm system that was always ranked near the bottom of the league.

So as a whole, I think a lot of us here were excited to see what Mozeliak could do, but we all respected Jocketty. I don't know exactly why Jocketty was fired, but I know there was a lot of divisiveness in the front office between WJ and Bill DeWitt. I guess the two just had different ideas on the future.

Sorry for the novel!

[Señor Rojo]

It was pretty mixed.

There were a lot of people that were upset about Walt leaving, but only really because no one knew anything about Mozeliak, and because WJ had been here for so long. Jocketty brought in a lot of big names to St.Louis, which brought a lot of respect from the fans, but people who followed the Cards' system as well as the big club could really see Walt's fatal flaw: a depleted farm system.

The Cardinals, under Walt, ALWAYS traded away a lot of prospects to bring in the big-name trade deadline guys (i.e. McGwire, Mulder, Rolen, Edmonds, Walker, etcetera). I don't know if Walt just didn't believe a strong farm system was a must when building an organization with some fiscal flexibility, or if he just felt those pieces were necessary, but he left a farm system that was always ranked near the bottom of the league.

So as a whole, I think a lot of us here were excited to see what Mozeliak could do, but we all respected Jocketty. I don't know exactly why Jocketty was fired, but I know there was a lot of divisiveness in the front office between WJ and Bill DeWitt. I guess the two just had different ideas on the future.

Sorry for the novel!

Thanks, this was very informative. The trading of prospect topic rings true with Jocketty running the Reds. The Rolen and Edmonds trades resulted in the Reds losing prospects too (Chris Dickerson for Edmonds might not be considered a "prospect"). Some people on this board were not happy about that.

[Kingspoint]

7-1-1

[HARP3R]

Thanks, this was very informative. The trading of prospect topic rings true with Jocketty running the Reds. The Rolen and Edmonds trades resulted in the Reds losing prospects too (Chris Dickerson for Edmonds might not be considered a "prospect"). Some people on this board were not happy about that.

Not a problem.

I actually wasn't aware that the Reds traded anyone for Edmonds or Rolen?

I'm not sure how Dickerson was viewed as a whole in Cincinnati, but from the outside, I thought he looked like a promising young player. Nothing great, but a serviceable guy. What did the Reds trade for Rolen?

And with Walt, it wasn't really trading prospects that irked me, it was the caliber of prospects the Cardinals traded for guys who didn't pan out. With Mulder, for instance, the Cards traded Dan Haren, Kiko Calero, and Daric Barton, which was obviously not a great move for the Birds in the long-run. Even at the time there was a lot of displeasure here.

The Rolen trade was a great move for Jocketty, though. He brought Scotty here for Placido Polanco, Mike Timlin, and Bud Smith.

[ezluke]

Not a problem.

I actually wasn't aware that the Reds traded anyone for Edmonds or Rolen?

I'm not sure how Dickerson was viewed as a whole in Cincinnati, but from the outside, I thought he looked like a promising young player. Nothing great, but a serviceable guy. What did the Reds trade for Rolen?

And with Walt, it wasn't really trading prospects that irked me, it was the caliber of prospects the Cardinals traded for guys who didn't pan out. With Mulder, for instance, the Cards traded Dan Haren, Kiko Calero, and Daric Barton, which was obviously not a great move for the Birds in the long-run. Even at the time there was a lot of displeasure here.

The Rolen trade was a great move for Jocketty, though. He brought Scotty here for Placido Polanco, Mike Timlin, and Bud Smith.

The reds traded our starting 3rd basemen Edwin Encarnacion, Josh Roenicke, and sp/rp zach Stewart. EE was playing his way to a dfa, JR was middle relief prospect with mid to high 90's fastball who was good not great in his shirt stints with the Reds ...but Zach was the heartbreaker for many. He was killing it in the minors, but has really struggled in the jays system for some reason. Our resident minor league guru thought we just traded a future cy young winner. Rolens contract and bad back were big part of the reasons many hated the trade.

[Vottomatic]

Thanks, this was very informative. The trading of prospect topic rings true with Jocketty running the Reds. The Rolen and Edmonds trades resulted in the Reds losing prospects too (Chris Dickerson for Edmonds might not be considered a "prospect"). Some people on this board were not happy about that.

I was a big EE fan from the day he came up. I gave him alot of rope because at times he frustrated me, and other times impressed me. Like Jay Bruce, I found myself often saying he was still young and will improve and develop into a star.

I also got excited about Zach Stewart's first year minor league numbers.

But by the time Walt traded EE and Stewart to Toronto, I was just beginning to sour on EE and didn't mind the trade, except for being frustrated by throwing in Stewart. Stewart's good numbers haven't continued and I'm thankful we got Rolen. If Francisco can improve his defense and walk ratio (actually took a 3-2 ball yesterday for a walk), he may be the future when Rolen retires in a couple of years. And could be the answer to resting Scott more and more.

While I liked Dickerson, he could never stay healthy and really was nothing more than a 4th or 5th outfielder. So far, getting Edmonds hasn't really paid off. Although in some strange way with OCab being out and Janish filling in at SS, and Cairo starting Rolen's rest day at 3B, it worked out well that Edmonds could play 1B today. Although I'm sure other guys could have done it..........with 6 OFers, it was good that one of them could do it. And he nearly homered today. In the end, the Reds had/have 40 man roster problems as it is, and Dickerson was one of the odd men out. And they have Dorn, Sappelt, and other OFers in the minors on their way, with nowhere to play at the major league level.

I have no problem with either trade. For me, Walt's only blunders were the signings of Patterson, Tavares, and if he signed Lincoln, that stunk too. But he tends to take chances on guys with usually a low risk situation such as Gary Matthews Jr., Springer, and Isringhausen. When the bullpen was struggling earlier, I was surprised they didn't call David Weathers and see what he had left.

Just my $.02 cents.

[HARP3R]

The reds traded our starting 3rd basemen Edwin Encarnacion, Josh Roenicke, and sp/rp zach Stewart. EE was playing his way to a dfa, JR was middle relief prospect with mid to high 90's fastball who was good not great in his shirt stints with the Reds ...but Zach was the heartbreaker for many. He was killing it in the minors, but has really struggled in the jays system for some reason. Our resident minor league guru thought we just traded a future cy young winner. Rolens contract and bad back were big part of the reasons many hated the trade.

Ahh, I do remember hearing about that trade now. I knew nothing about Roenicke or Stewart, but with how Rolen had played the previous two years with all of the injuries, I was pretty curious with the trade.

Encarnacion was known here in St.Louis by many as "the Cardinal killer", as many other players (Bud Norris, for instance) are. I was very happy to see EE gone from the Central.

However, with Rolen (healthy) and back to his old form, it seems that is really a trade that has paid off for Cincy, and I wouldn't mind seeing EE back at 3B over Scott.

Anyway, my advice to any Reds' fan...Don't grow too attached to any of your prospects. Walt isn't afraid to give (a little too much at times) to get. He does know how to build some darn good ball clubs though.

[ian_madden]

[QUOTE=HARP3R;2210069]Ahh, I do remember hearing about that trade now. I knew nothing about Roenicke or Stewart, but with how Rolen had played the previous two years with all of the injuries, I was pretty curious with the trade.

Encarnacion was known here in St.Louis by many as "the Cardinal killer", as many other players (Bud Norris, for instance) are. I was very happy to see EE gone from the Central.

Thats funny. I've never heard of EE as any killer except for my dreams. that guy can snag any hit down the line, it was his throws that were HORRIBLE. Good bat, but never matured for us. I'm happy he is gone. Nice insight from a Cards fan.

[Vottomatic]

Ahh, I do remember hearing about that trade now. I knew nothing about Roenicke or Stewart, but with how Rolen had played the previous two years with all of the injuries, I was pretty curious with the trade.

Encarnacion was known here in St.Louis by many as "the Cardinal killer", as many other players (Bud Norris, for instance) are. I was very happy to see EE gone from the Central.

However, with Rolen (healthy) and back to his old form, it seems that is really a trade that has paid off for Cincy, and I wouldn't mind seeing EE back at 3B over Scott.

Anyway, my advice to any Reds' fan...Don't grow too attached to any of your prospects. Walt isn't afraid to give (a little too much at times) to get. He does know how to build some darn good ball clubs though.

Actually, it's about time, this off season, to start trading some of these prospects. Think about it? Where are they going to play?

1B Votto........uh, no need to keep any future first basemen.
2B Phillips.........due an increase to $11M next year and then becomes a FA in '12. I think the Reds plan was to hope Todd Frazier would be ready by then. I do not see them re-signing Brandon Phillips, and I would expect BP to go for the gusto in FA. It would not surprise me to see them ponder trading him this offseason if they have any suitors.
SS OCab/Janish..........OCab has a team option for next season only at around $3M. OCab is also considered a team leader in the clubhouse. The other players like him alot. I doubt management doesn't have him return. Zach Cozart is in the wings and has little left to prove in triple A. I see him up here in '12 with OCab retiring.
3B Rolen.............with Francisco spelling him on off days and he brings a lefthanded power bat to the mix. I do see Cairo sticking around also.
C Hanigan/Hernandez.........Hernandez has an option for $3M in '11 and then becomes a FA. I think he'll be 36 at that point. Coaching job in the future? Hanigan will be this team for years, IMHO. And the Reds have two #1 picks in the minors in Mesoraco (tearing up double A) and Grandal (about to sign). Catching should be a strength for years to come.
OF - Stubbs, Bruce, Heisey, Gomes, Nix, Edmonds, and then in the minors Dorn, Sappelt, and several other lower level studs. Not a weakness now or in the near future.
SP - Bailey, Cueto, Volquez, Leake, Wood...........5 young stud pitchers. Do they re-sign Arroyo? Maloney, Lecure, Klinker at triple A.
RP - I can't remember his name, but they have a lefthander (Donny?) in the lower levels who is lights out. And Chapman is on the way as a reliever and future starter.

Reds have plenty of room to trade prospects to fill their holes.

[HARP3R]

That's true, Vottomatic.

A lot of prospects are drafted just to trade.

It is paramount to build some sort of depth in your farm system, though, and even though you have a superstar in the making at 1B, and a good young (relatively) 2B, it never hurts to have cost-controlled depth everywhere.

If the Cardinals lose Pujols, Yadier, or Holliday to a serious injury, they really don't have an adequate player to take over, and they can't afford to go out and get an adequate replacement.

If the Reds can continue to draft well, and keep restocking the farm, they can let go of some of those top prospects like Alonso to help go out and grab an ace, but you'll need the cheap prospects when guys like Votto, Volquez, and Stubbs/Heisey get those big contracts.

The Cardinals are pretty much handcuffed by the impending Pujols contract, along with Carp, Holliday, and Lohse (who makes something like $30M the next 3 seasons). They certainly won't be able to offer Molina or Rasmus what they deserve when the time comes. Heck, Waino's only making $4.8M this year! Not bad for a guy who's in the running for a Cy Young. We'll need quite a few cheap guys when Wainwright gets paid what he deserves.

[HARP3R]

Also, Vottomatic, the one thing I didn't mention is that it's players like Frazier and Francisco that allows guys like Rolen and Phillips to walk.

That will be a lot of money off the books when Rolen and BP are gone, and if Frazier/Francisco can play to their potential, that's a dangerous, and cost-controlled duo that will allow the Reds to pay the players they have to keep, as well as going out to pick up a couple big names for a year or two.

Prospects are no guarantee, but they are very important to the future of a team.

[Vottomatic]

Also, Vottomatic, the one thing I didn't mention is that it's players like Frazier and Francisco that allows guys like Rolen and Phillips to walk.

That will be a lot of money off the books when Rolen and BP are gone, and if Frazier/Francisco can play to their potential, that's a dangerous, and cost-controlled duo that will allow the Reds to pay the players they have to keep, as well as going out to pick up a couple big names for a year or two.

Prospects are no guarantee, but they are very important to the future of a team.

Rolen will be here til he retires. He did the organization a favor, and himself (in terms of being closer to home) by re-upping at a lower price. Even if he only plays 120 games a year, he's a bargain. He will finish his career with the Reds and will be loved for it in the end. I like his leadership and appreciate what he's got left. Defensively, he may not be what he once was, but the routine plays are no longer an adventure like they were with EE.

[HARP3R]

Defensively, he may not be what he once was, but the routine plays are no longer an adventure like they were with EE.

He's still better defensively than 95% of the 3B in the game.

It's a beautiful thing watching SR pick a short hop at the hot corner. I've never enjoyed watching a player play their position like I did watching Rolen. Well, I was too young to enjoy Ozzie's early years, but he was obviously a treat to watch, and I'd say he takes the cake against Rolen, but it's a close call.

[Vottomatic]

Go find some Brooks Robinson videos of him playing third base. Greatest defensive third baseman of all time, hands down.

[HARP3R]

Go find some Brooks Robinson videos of him playing third base. Greatest defensive third baseman of all time, hands down.

I definitely can't argue that. I'm sure sorry that I didn't have a chance to see him play.

[MikeThierry]

It was pretty mixed.

There were a lot of people that were upset about Walt leaving, but only really because no one knew anything about Mozeliak, and because WJ had been here for so long. Jocketty brought in a lot of big names to St.Louis, which brought a lot of respect from the fans, but people who followed the Cards' system as well as the big club could really see Walt's fatal flaw: a depleted farm system.

The Cardinals, under Walt, ALWAYS traded away a lot of prospects to bring in the big-name trade deadline guys (i.e. McGwire, Mulder, Rolen, Edmonds, Walker, etcetera). I don't know if Walt just didn't believe a strong farm system was a must when building an organization with some fiscal flexibility, or if he just felt those pieces were necessary, but he left a farm system that was always ranked near the bottom of the league.

So as a whole, I think a lot of us here were excited to see what Mozeliak could do, but we all respected Jocketty. I don't know exactly why Jocketty was fired, but I know there was a lot of divisiveness in the front office between WJ and Bill DeWitt. I guess the two just had different ideas on the future.

You sort of hit the nail on the head here but there was some real dissension within the Cards organization. There were essentially two camps in the organization where some believed in Walts philosophy over Jeff Lunow's drafting philosophy. I think the biggest issue that pushed him out is the fact that this team would have to consistently bring in fresh young talent if the Cards were going to keep Pujols. They weren't going to do that with Walt at the helm.

Currently, I think Mo has done an excellent job in bringing in young talent. Yeah, its true that the current farm system is somewhat depleted due to the trades of last year. However one factor in that depletion might be because there have been key impact rookies come into the team in the past couple of years (Freese, Ryan, Jay, Craig, Garcia).

HARP, I think its inevitable that the payroll is going to have to increase over 100 million. I certainly believe the Cards have the funds to do so. I don't think they will have a problem resigning Yadi and Rasmus. However, I would also like you to look at the bonus Waino gets if he finishes in the top 5. It might change your mind about him having a low contract. From what I understand, if he finishes in the top 5, his 2012-2013 option will be 22 million

[HARP3R]

HARP, I think its inevitable that the payroll is going to have to increase over 100 million. I certainly believe the Cards have the funds to do so. I don't think they will have a problem resigning Yadi and Rasmus. However, I would also like you to look at the bonus Waino gets if he finishes in the top 5. It might change your mind about him having a low contract. From what I understand, if he finishes in the top 5, his 2012-2013 option will be 22 million

I don't think there's any question that the Cards will HAVE to bump that payroll over $100M if they want to field a playoff team for the next decade.

Honestly, I don't follow the business part of baseball as much as I follow everything else, so I'm not really sure what is all embedded in Waino's contract. I'm pretty dull with the contracts and all their details haha! It sounds like you're light years ahead of me there! So please correct me if I'm wrong anywhere here! :D

The Cardinals' opening day payroll was $93M with roughly $63M tied up in 5 players (Pujols, Holliday, Carp, Lohse, and Penny). FIVE frickin' players out of 25. Carp, Lohse, and Penny will all three be off the books by 2013, I believe, so that'll open up quite a bit of payroll right there. It will be tough if the Cards re-sign Pujols to roughly $30M annually though, as almost $50M will be tied up annually for a handful of years between Holliday and Pujols. Not to mention the enormous contract Waino will eventually fetch, and the very generous contracts Rasmus, Molina, and possibly Garcia will be offered.

The Cardinals' organization is very lucky that year-in-year-out St.Louis ranks in the top-5 in attendance, because St.Louis is far from a big market, and sustaining a payroll upwards of $100M isn't really fiscally responsible for DeWitt. If the Cards can't get that payroll up, it'll be very difficult to field a serious contending team here in the near future.

[New York Red]

Go find some Brooks Robinson videos of him playing third base. Greatest defensive third baseman of all time, hands down.
Don't forget Buddy Bell. ;)

[redssince75]

Gee, how did a "Cards series didn't kill us" thread turn into a novel about Walt Jocketty's time with the Cardinals. I live in St. Louis, and I love the Reds, and while the Cardinals are the only other MLB team I even somewhat like, this stuff didn't interest me when it was happening the 1st time around.

[HARP3R]

Gee, how did a "Cards series didn't kill us" thread turn into a novel about Walt Jocketty's time with the Cardinals. I live in St. Louis, and I love the Reds, and while the Cardinals are the only other MLB team I even somewhat like, this stuff didn't interest me when it was happening the 1st time around.

Sorry about all the WJ talk. But it is relevant to you and your Reds, considering he is your GM. We were really just discussing some of his past pitfalls, which are likely to occur in Cincinnati.

I got a little carried away with the talk about the Cardinals and their payroll, and I shouldn't have let those opinions spill over into a Reds' forum. I do apologize for that.

[Señor Rojo]

Sorry about all the WJ talk. But it is relevant to you and your Reds, considering he is your GM. We were really just discussing some of his past pitfalls, which are likely to occur in Cincinnati.

I got a little carried away with the talk about the Cardinals and their payroll, and I shouldn't have let those opinions spill over into a Reds' forum. I do apologize for that.

It's cool. I found your recounts of WJ's track record in St. Louis to be really helpful. I also agree with your point of the Cardinals needing to open up their wallets to keep the core of their team. After living in St. Louis for a year, I wouldn't be surprised if a Pujols tax would passed on the November ballot (all money raised goes towards his new contract). Honestly, I think this season signals a changing of the guard in the central division. The Cardinals aren't getting any younger, whereas the Reds have some budding talent surrounded by experienced veterans. Let's hope Jocketty doesn't trade too much of our farm system for short term success.

[MarkInBoro]

Ahh, I do remember hearing about that trade now. I knew nothing about Roenicke or Stewart, but with how Rolen had played the previous two years with all of the injuries, I was pretty curious with the trade.

Encarnacion was known here in St.Louis by many as "the Cardinal killer", as many other players (Bud Norris, for instance) are. I was very happy to see EE gone from the Central.

However, with Rolen (healthy) and back to his old form, it seems that is really a trade that has paid off for Cincy, and I wouldn't mind seeing EE back at 3B over Scott.

Anyway, my advice to any Reds' fan...Don't grow too attached to any of your prospects. Walt isn't afraid to give (a little too much at times) to get. He does know how to build some darn good ball clubs though.

How is it that Cardinals fans like you can get into & banter along in a Cincinnati Reds forum, but Reds fans like myself can't obtain permission to join sites like CardsClubhouse.com?
I tried to join that site, & set up a user name & password with a contact roark1138...
But that user name & password doesn't work, maybe because the tag-line in ALL of my posts WOULD HAVE read..."Go Reds". :beerme:

[MikeThierry]

Well, I think they are going to get creative with the Pujols contract. Hell, it wouldn't surprise me if they offered partial ownership to him when his career is over with (something like 1-5%)

Senor, as far as the Cards not getting any younger, I think that is a bit misleading. The current Cardinals club might be the youngest I can remember in a long time. There is nobody over 30 within the every day starting lineup. The way the financial situation will be in a couple of years, it is important to constantly bring up cheap, young talent so I don't see this team aging as much as people think.

[MarkInBoro]

The Cardinals are pretty much handcuffed by the impending Pujols contract, along with Carp, Holliday, and Lohse (who makes something like $30M the next 3 seasons). They certainly won't be able to offer Molina or Rasmus what they deserve when the time comes. Heck, Waino's only making $4.8M this year! Not bad for a guy who's in the running for a Cy Young. We'll need quite a few cheap guys when Wainwright gets paid what he deserves.

There's no way the Cards can afford to pay all these guys what they'll be asking, or what arbitration settles for. I see some of your starting pitching ace-bloc going bye-bye after this season. That's no doubt the reason why the move was made to shore up the bottom of the rotation at the end of July...to get one last shot a World Series rings, before the lion's share of Cardinals franchise $$ is thrown at Puhols, the cornerstone.

[MikeThierry]

There's no way the Cards can afford to pay all these guys what they'll be asking, or what arbitration settles for. I see some of your starting pitching ace-bloc going bye-bye after this season. That's no doubt the reason why the move was made to shore up the bottom of the rotation at the end of July...to get one last shot a World Series rings, before the lion's share of Cardinals franchise $$ is thrown at Puhols, the cornerstone.

I highly doubt that. I don't think the Cardinals organization spent the money on Holliday and other players without factoring in the Pujols contract. Besides, Cardinals nation is sort of like the people who watch televangelists. If the Cards ask for people to spend more money at the ball parks, the Cards fans will pay the money. I don't mind paying 30 dollars for a ticket and 10 dollar beer if that means they will continue to put a winning product on the field. Besides, some people estimate that the payroll could increase to $120 million right now without raising ticket prices.

As far as the starting pitching goes, the Cards were very smart with their contracts. They have Carpenter and Waino locked up for a couple of more years. When Carps contract is up, he should be like 37 or 38. It won't take much to resign him if he is still effective. In the mean time, Shelby Miller should be ready to start pitching in the minors. If the Cards staff consists of one huge money ace in Wainwright but have other young pitchers such as Garcia and Miller on the cheap, the Cards should be good on the money front.

[HARP3R]

How is it that Cardinals fans like you can get into & banter along in a Cincinnati Reds forum, but Reds fans like myself can't obtain permission to join sites like CardsClubhouse.com?
I tried to join that site, & set up a user name & password with a contact roark1138...
But that user name & password doesn't work, maybe because the tag-line in ALL of my posts WOULD HAVE read..."Go Reds". :beerme:

:thumbup: That may do it, but I don't know. I've never been on CardsClubhouse, so I don't really know how they format the whole "acceptance" thing.

However, if you're looking for a Cards forum, go to Cards Talk on Stltoday.com. I must warn you, though. That place is a perfect example of inmates running the prison. As a Cards' fan, I can't tolerate that place.

Someone looking for a little fun banter may enjoy checking that place out, but I wouldn't expect much hospitality. Cards' fans don't even get that there.