OSU-UM Football Rivalry

[Sea Ray]

According to this writer the OSU-UM football rivalry could go by the wayside:


The Big Ten should announce its division pairings sometime in September, and the idea of placing Michigan and Ohio State in opposite divisions has been gaining steam, with everyone from Ohio State coach Jim Tressel to Big Ten commissioner Jim Delany to Ohio State athletic director Gene Smith to Michigan athletic director David Brandon laying groundwork for that possibility

http://www.cleveland.com/osu/index.ssf/2010/08/ohio_state_vs_michigan_must_no.html

I think this is a mistake. Arguably, OSU-MI is the most storied rivalry in all of sports and this setup would end it. In years like this yr in all likelihood the two wouldn't even meet. Some years they would meet twice, further diluting the impact of the game.

I feel strongly that they should be kept in the same division so that they play every year and also it would ensure that a lot rides on the game.

What do you think?

[Captain13]

It doesn't matter to me about divisions, as long as they make sure The Big Game gets played every year on the last weekend of the Big 10 schedule.

As a matter of fact, I think the last week of the season should always look like this.
OSU v Mich
IU v Purd
Ill v NW
Iowa v Neb
Minn v Wis
MSU v PSU

That should get some rivalries going at the end of the year.

[ThornWithin81]

They have to play every year in the last regular season game. If they take that away it ceases to be the greatest rivalry in American sports.

Hopefully UM/OSU grads and fans can get vocal and make sure this doesn't happen.

[reds1869]

I would be in favor of placing them in opposite divisions if the Big Ten does indeed go to divisional play. If anything the rivalry would intensify. A Big Ten tile game matching the Wolverines and Buckeyes would be a blast. Of course, I say that as someone with no horse in the race and maybe UM and OSU fans feel differently.

[WVRed]

According to this writer the OSU-UM football rivalry could go by the wayside:



http://www.cleveland.com/osu/index.ssf/2010/08/ohio_state_vs_michigan_must_no.html

I think this is a mistake. Arguably, OSU-MI is the most storied rivalry in all of sports and this setup would end it. In years like this yr in all likelihood the two wouldn't even meet. Some years they would meet twice, further diluting the impact of the game.

I feel strongly that they should be kept in the same division so that they play every year and also it would ensure that a lot rides on the game.

What do you think?

It's all about revenue. Put Ohio State and Michigan in separate divisions and see to it that they play every season (which would probably still happen), and then if both teams are hot, they face each other again in the Big Ten Championship.

It divides them up and likely means they will see each other twice.

[guttle11]

Letting them play twice only set the league up for logistical disaster. One school wins on the other's home field, goes unbeaten. In a title game rematch the previous game loser pulls the upset and wins the Big Ten title. The credibility of the league title is iffy at best and the league could well miss out on a National Title Game appearance.

The best division breakdown for the Big Ten:

Ohio State
Michigan
Iowa
Michigan State
Indiana
Purdue


Penn State
Nebraska
Wisconsin
Northwestern
Minnesota
Illinois

Revenue wise you split the 6 biggest, most reliable fan bases up evenly. 99% of the time one of those schools will be in the title game, and about 80% of the time you'll have 2 of the 6 playing each other.

OSU/Michigan
Iron Bowl
ND/USC
Army/Navy

Football rivalries are special because you only meet once. One shot for everything. You start giving them the chance to meet twice a year, every year and you dilute the rivalry. Suddenly OSU playing Michigan won't be the same draw it was before. Over time it wouldn't draw more eyeballs and dollars than a Michigan/Nebraska or Ohio State/Penn State game, and you've ruined a great thing in vein.

[15fan]

Put all 12 teams in one division. Overall winner gets a bid to the title game.

Opponent is drawn at random from the 11 remaining teams, NBA lottery style.

[LoganBuck]

Letting them play twice only set the league up for logistical disaster. One school wins on the other's home field, goes unbeaten. In a title game rematch the previous game loser pulls the upset and wins the Big Ten title. The credibility of the league title is iffy at best and the league could well miss out on a National Title Game appearance.

The best division breakdown for the Big Ten:

Ohio State
Michigan
Iowa
Michigan State
Indiana
Purdue


Penn State
Nebraska
Wisconsin
Northwestern
Minnesota
Illinois

Revenue wise you split the 6 biggest, most reliable fan bases up evenly. 99% of the time one of those schools will be in the title game, and about 80% of the time you'll have 2 of the 6 playing each other.

OSU/Michigan
Iron Bowl
ND/USC
Army/Navy

Football rivalries are special because you only meet once. One shot for everything. You start giving them the chance to meet twice a year, every year and you dilute the rivalry. Suddenly OSU playing Michigan won't be the same draw it was before. Over time it wouldn't draw more eyeballs and dollars than a Michigan/Nebraska or Ohio State/Penn State game, and you've ruined a great thing in vein.

Penn State has to be in the East. They have been upset over travel costs, and the next wave of conference expansion will be done with them in mind.

[WMR]

Do Michigan fans WANT the 'rivalry' to continue?

As they say, sometimes the better part of valor is discretion.

[Roy Tucker]

There is ebb and flow to every rivalry. OSU has dominated recently, but UM kicked their butt for a long stretch in the late '90's/early 2k's.

I'm just afraid that no matter what they do, it will wreck the rivalry.

[westofyou]

Do Michigan fans WANT the 'rivalry' to continue?

As they say, sometimes the better part of valor is discretion.

You mean the same one that Michigan leads, 57–43–6?

Ummm yeah.

[WMR]

You mean the same one that Michigan leads, 57–43–6?

Ummm yeah.

I knew someone would quote the all-time record...

what's the record for UM v. OSU in the Tressel era?

Maybe just move divisions until he retires? :D

[westofyou]

I knew someone would quote the all-time record...

what's the record for UM v. OSU in the Tressel era?

Maybe just move divisions until he retires? :D

It's not good, but then again what was it during the Bruce era?

History is not just what you can see in YOUR rearview mirror, there are folks who have been watching that matchup for decades

[WMR]

It's not good, but then again what was it during the Bruce era?

History is not just what you can see in yOUR rearview mirror, theer are folks who have been watching that matchup for decades

True, true.

It's just gotta be getting real old having OSU put a big negative stamp on the UM season every year...

maybe getting away from having to play the OSU juggernaut would help the UM program recover? But then again, think how good it will feel to finally beat them again... it cuts both ways, I guess.

I personally love collegiate rivalries and would hate to see this one changed...

[Boston Red]

I'm sure WMR was ready for UK to admit they couldn't compete with UofL back when Petrino's teams were dominating UK a few years back (and after John L's teams and even Ron Cooper's teams had pretty much owned the series).

Strangely, the tides sometimes turn.

[WVRed]

Do Michigan fans WANT the 'rivalry' to continue?

As they say, sometimes the better part of valor is discretion.

My guess is unless there is some sort of miracle this season, Rich Rodriguez will be gone. I honestly believed Michigan hired Rodriguez because 1. the spread option has given Ohio State problems in the past, and 2. Rodriguez would have been a good play in order to convince Terrelle Pryor not to go to Columbus.

Rodriguez is the college football version of Billy Gillispie, good success at a smaller school, but not the kind of coach you want if you are in the national spotlight.

I believe Les Miles was and still is the right coach for Michigan. Don't know if that will ever happen though, even if he does get canned from LSU after this season.

[WMR]

I'm sure WMR was ready for UK to admit they couldn't compete with UofL back when Petrino's teams were dominating UK a few years back (and after John L's teams and even Ron Cooper's teams had pretty much owned the series).

Strangely, the tides sometimes turn.

I never wanted to stop playing UL. I knew they would eventually turn into U of L again. :D

Now OSU on the other hand..... I don't think that train will ever quit rolling.

Now ask me if I'd like to get out of playing UF every season.

[Boston Red]

I never wanted to stop playing UL. I knew they would eventually turn into U of L again. :D



Happily for us, you guys will always be UK, so we'll never be too far out of it. :D

And while Ohio State is usually gonna be Ohio State, Michigan is going to get back to being Michigan soon, too. They're impossible to keep down for long.

[WMR]

Happily for us, you guys will always be UK, so we'll never be too far out of it. :D

And while Ohio State is usually gonna be Ohio State, Michigan is going to get back to being Michigan soon, too. They're impossible to keep down for long.

hahahahahahahahah thank you for the laugh

[westofyou]

My guess is unless there is some sort of miracle this season, Rich Rodriguez will be gone. I honestly believed Michigan hired Rodriguez because 1. the spread option has given Ohio State problems in the past, and 2. Rodriguez would have been a good play in order to convince Terrelle Pryor not to go to Columbus.

Rodriguez is the college football version of Billy Gillispie, good success at a smaller school, but not the kind of coach you want if you are in the national spotlight.

I believe Les Miles was and still is the right coach for Michigan. Don't know if that will ever happen though, even if he does get canned from LSU after this season.

I work with a few UM grads, they (as well as I) believe that RR is not a "Michigan" guy, never has been, never will be and well... was a bad choice for that program.

As for "stop playing OSU" to make yourself look better as WMR suggests, well that's not the UM way either.

[ochre]

You mean the same one that Michigan leads, 57–43–6?

Ummm yeah.
or the one OSU leads 31-27-2 since 1950...

:)

[WMR]

I wonder what sort of response you would receive if this question was posed to the current UM student body?

[WVRed]

Happily for us, you guys will always be UK, so we'll never be too far out of it. :D

And while Ohio State is usually gonna be Ohio State, Michigan is going to get back to being Michigan soon, too. They're impossible to keep down for long.

Bingo.

I used the Billy Gillispie comparison and I think it is a relatable one in this thread. WOY said that people in Michigan do not like Rod because he is not "a Michigan guy". While true, it speaks that there is a need for a coach who can unite the fanbase again, the same way John Calipari did at Kentucky. Once that happens, that train will start rolling again.

Using WMR's logic, I wonder how many OSU fans would have liked to have gotten out of playing Michigan during the 1990's, when Ohio State was on the cusp of playing for a national championship but always got knocked out by Michigan. :)

[Chip R]

I would think, if tOSU and UM wind up in different divisions, that each team will be allowed to select another school in the other division that they will play every year. In this case UM and tOSU would play every season.

With a championship game, it takes a bit of the shine off the rivalry if they end up playing in the championship game. It might end up somewhat anti-climatic.

[15fan]

UM and RR each got what they deserved when they hooked up, IMO.

UM has historically done well when they've poached top shelf talent from Ohio. When Tressell shut of that pipeline, the tide turned.

I think UM is going to have a tough time returning to the status as an elite power every year. Michigan as a destination is a really tough sell. Especially on 18-23 year olds who also have options to head to places like Austin, LA, Tallahassee, Miami, etc.

[westofyou]

Michigan as a destination is a really tough sell. Especially on 18-23 year olds who also have options to head to places like Austin, LA, Tallahassee, Miami, etc.

And Columbus is the Paris of the Midwest?

[Sea Ray]

I'm sure WMR was ready for UK to admit they couldn't compete with UofL back when Petrino's teams were dominating UK a few years back (and after John L's teams and even Ron Cooper's teams had pretty much owned the series).

Strangely, the tides sometimes turn.

Better yet, how's that football rivalry goin' with UT? My guess is he doesn't want that one dropped...

[Reds Fanatic]

I am sure they will somehow guarantee the schools play every year but if they end up in seperate divisions the game will be moved up earlier in the year. I guarantee they will avoid a situation where OSU and Michigan would play at the end of the regular season and then meet again in the Championship game the next week.

[Cedric]

And Columbus is the Paris of the Midwest?

In terms of football talent compared to Michigan? Yes it sure is.

I think that is what 15 fan was talking about.

[Roy Tucker]

I agree that Michigan will get back to being Michigan soon. Don't know how soon "soon" is, but it will happen.

I cringe when I hear my fellow OSU fans barking and woofing about how UM sucks. It wasn't that long ago the shoe was on the other foot and paybacks are a witch.

I guess you just have to pile it when when you are the big dog. Not my style though.

[ThornWithin81]

I wonder what sort of response you would receive if this question was posed to the current UM student body?

They would hate it. Absolutely hate it.

It defines both of our football programs (I went to Ohio State from 2004 to 2009). It is everything.

I think they should just leave the conference alone. We've had 11 teams for years now and we only had one division. Every team gets 8 divisional games. Instead of playing 8 out of 10 division peers each year, teams will now play 8 out of 11. Simply add in Nebraska and leave it alone. Make sure the big rivalries play every year and go from there.

I hate the 6 and 6 "Title Game" setups anyway. Teams should not play twice a year in College Football, unless by some freak circumstances two non-conference opponents play early in the season, go undefeated from there and meet again in the National Title game (or another bowl, for that matter).

Think about this: If the Big Ten had 12 teams in 2006 when "The Game of the Century" was played in Columbus, that game would have lost most of it's meaning, assuming OSU and Michigan were in opposite conferences. OSU beats Michigan and then faces Michigan on a neutral site the next week? Terrible. Just terrible.

It's perfect that our seasons always end up against each other. If OSU is undefeated and heading to a title game, they have to get through the Wolverines. If the Wolverines are undefeated and heading for the title game (Sadly, a long shot these days) they have to go through the Buckeyes.

That is the way it should always be.

[westofyou]

In terms of football talent compared to Michigan? Yes it sure is.

I think that is what 15 fan was talking about.

Not the drift I was getting, "destination" "options" all belie the place, not the folks at said place.

That said I'd take Ann Arbor 10000 times over Columbus... as a "destination"

[WVRed]

In terms of football talent compared to Michigan? Yes it sure is.

I think that is what 15 fan was talking about.

I'm thinking more along the lines of college atmosphere. SoCal and beach life, etc.

All Ohio State has to offer is academics and facilities.

[Boston Red]

Not the drift I was getting, "destination" "options" all belie the place, not the folks at said place.

That said I'd take Ann Arbor 10000 times over Columbus... as a "destination"


And I'd take Westwood, CA 10000 times over both if a kid is really exploring his options.....though, somehow, UCLA has still managed to be mediocre to bad for most of a decade.

[ThornWithin81]

I'm thinking more along the lines of college atmosphere. SoCal and beach life, etc.

All Ohio State has to offer is academics and facilities.

Sorry, wrong. "College Atmosphere" goes beyond sunny weather and beach access. If you play football at Ohio State you are a god in the city of Columbus, especially on that campus. That goes a long way, as does the fact that most of OSU's players grow up wearing OSU gear from the crib onward.

[15fan]

And Columbus is the Paris of the Midwest?

Nah. Parisians are snooty. Columbus is more...London. It's always gray both places. :)

Shoulda done a better job spelling out my premise. In a nutshell,

http://www.census.gov/popest/states/NST-ann-est.html

Michigan's population has been flat for the past decade, and has actually declined each of the last 4 years. Over the same time frame, Ohio (which has about 1.5 million more people) has added population each year, and grown by about 200,000 people over the decade. The Great Lakes region as a whole isn't adding population like the sun belt, southwest, or California. Michigan as a state is seeing a net outflow of people. There doesn't appear to be anything on the immediate horizon to reverse that trend line.

That's a reflection of a lot of things. Mainly economics. If you are a kid who grew up in Michigan, staying at home for college & football is an easier sell. If you are a kid from outside the state / region, it's a tougher sell. Factor in the weather (worse in Ann Arbor than in just about any other major college football town), and the smaller home state population base from which to draw, and those are two big things that UM must overcome. All else being equal, UM must import talent without a couple of the usual selling points that make it easy for Chambers of Commerce to drum up interest.

[15fan]

double post

[westofyou]

Nah. Parisians are snooty. Columbus is more...London. It's always gray both places. :)

Shoulda done a better job spelling out my premise. In a nutshell,

http://www.census.gov/popest/states/NST-ann-est.html

Michigan's population has been flat for the past decade, and has actually declined each of the last 4 years. Over the same time frame, Ohio (which has about 1.5 million more people) has added population each year, and grown by about 200,000 people over the decade. The Great Lakes region as a whole isn't adding population like the sun belt, southwest, or California. Michigan as a state is seeing a net outflow of people. There doesn't appear to be anything on the immediate horizon to reverse that trend line.

That's a reflection of a lot of things. Mainly economics. If you are a kid who grew up in Michigan, staying at home for college & football is an easier sell. If you are a kid from outside the state / region, it's a tougher sell. Factor in the weather (worse in Ann Arbor than in just about any other major college football town), and the smaller home state population base from which to draw, and those are two big things that UM must overcome. All else being equal, UM must import talent without a couple of the usual selling points that make it easy for Chambers of Commerce to drum up interest.


Stats are stats, and Columbus is still Columbus.

[Sea Ray]

They would hate it. Absolutely hate it.

It defines both of our football programs (I went to Ohio State from 2004 to 2009). It is everything.

I think they should just leave the conference alone. We've had 11 teams for years now and we only had one division. Every team gets 8 divisional games. Instead of playing 8 out of 10 division peers each year, teams will now play 8 out of 11. Simply add in Nebraska and leave it alone. Make sure the big rivalries play every year and go from there.

I hate the 6 and 6 "Title Game" setups anyway. Teams should not play twice a year in College Football, unless by some freak circumstances two non-conference opponents play early in the season, go undefeated from there and meet again in the National Title game (or another bowl, for that matter).

Think about this: If the Big Ten had 12 teams in 2006 when "The Game of the Century" was played in Columbus, that game would have lost most of it's meaning, assuming OSU and Michigan were in opposite conferences. OSU beats Michigan and then faces Michigan on a neutral site the next week? Terrible. Just terrible.

It's perfect that our seasons always end up against each other. If OSU is undefeated and heading to a title game, they have to get through the Wolverines. If the Wolverines are undefeated and heading for the title game (Sadly, a long shot these days) they have to go through the Buckeyes.

That is the way it should always be.

That ship's already sailed. The main reason for adding a 12th team was so they could have a championship game. I share your concern about teams having to play twice but it'll also break ties. There have been years where the top two teams in the Big Ten didn't play each other.

[Chip R]

UM and RR each got what they deserved when they hooked up, IMO.

UM has historically done well when they've poached top shelf talent from Ohio. When Tressell shut of that pipeline, the tide turned.

I think UM is going to have a tough time returning to the status as an elite power every year. Michigan as a destination is a really tough sell. Especially on 18-23 year olds who also have options to head to places like Austin, LA, Tallahassee, Miami, etc.

If location were the top priority of playing football in college, none of the Big 10 schools or Big 12 schools would get any recruits.

[ThornWithin81]

Stats are stats, and Columbus is still Columbus.

I wouldn't move back to Columbus for any length of time. If it weren't for the friends I have in the city I wouldn't even consider it on a short time basis.

I've never been to Ann Arbor so I can't compare.

[paintmered]

What's the first non-OSU thing you think about when it comes to Columbus? I'm still trying to think of something... Chain restaurants, maybe?

Oh, and OSU and Michigan need to play every year.

[westofyou]

I wouldn't move back to Columbus for any length of time. If it weren't for the friends I have in the city I wouldn't even consider it on a short time basis.

I've never been to Ann Arbor so I can't compare.
Ann Arbor is smaller, I haven't been in YEARS so I'm not qualified to speak of now... I'm just pushing buttons... well because i'm a UM fan, and that's all I got right now

[guttle11]

What's the first non-OSU thing you think about when it comes to Columbus? I'm still trying to think of something... Chain restaurants, maybe?

Oh, and OSU and Michigan need to play every year.

The Big Bang.

[ThornWithin81]

Ann Arbor is smaller, I haven't been in YEARS so I'm not qualified to speak of now... I'm just pushing buttons... well because i'm a UM fan, and that's all I got right now

All I know is that they play in a giant toilet bowl. :beerme:

[ThornWithin81]

What's the first non-OSU thing you think about when it comes to Columbus? I'm still trying to think of something... Chain restaurants, maybe?

Oh, and OSU and Michigan need to play every year.

The Columbus Blue Jackets! :D

[guttle11]

Penn State has to be in the East. They have been upset over travel costs, and the next wave of conference expansion will be done with them in mind.

No they don't. Ohio State and Michigan are Big Ten football. Penn State is going nowhere regardless of division. They will not walk away from more than $25 million a year. Put them with Nebraska and be done with it.

[WVRed]

Sorry, wrong. "College Atmosphere" goes beyond sunny weather and beach access. If you play football at Ohio State you are a god in the city of Columbus, especially on that campus.

Same could be said for USC and all the other powerhouses. You are a god if you play basketball at UK all throughout the state. In some powerhouse states (Tennessee and Florida), college football is more prevalent than the NFL.


That goes a long way, as does the fact that most of OSU's players grow up wearing OSU gear from the crib onward

No surprise, as Ohio is a hotbed of football talent. With Tressel, its a matter of keeping that talent in-state.

[Chip R]

What's the first non-OSU thing you think about when it comes to Columbus? I'm still trying to think of something... Chain restaurants, maybe?

Burning couches? Oh, wait, that's tOSU related.

[ThornWithin81]

Burning couches? Oh, wait, that's tOSU related.

After the win against Michigan in 2005 I watched a guy drag his couch onto Lane Avenue and light it up.

I also watched him get arrested. :D

[WVRed]

Burning couches? Oh, wait, that's tOSU related.

I thought that was WVU.

[Slyder]

I thought that was WVU.

We've burned our fair share of couches in Morgantown but Ohio St. and others do it too.

[LoganBuck]

No they don't. Ohio State and Michigan are Big Ten football. Penn State is going nowhere regardless of division. They will not walk away from more than $25 million a year. Put them with Nebraska and be done with it.

Penn State isn't walking away from anything, what I was saying is that you can't put them into a division of all teams in the western part of the conference. They will object to that.

[cincrazy]

Stats are stats, and Columbus is still Columbus.

Columbus is a beautiful city. You have your opinion, and that's fine. I realize it supports your general argument. But I don't see the point in making it seem like a bum city. Ann Arbor and Columbus are different. They both are unique, and they both have a charm about them.

[Chip R]

It appears they are going to a 9 game schedule and Iowa and Wisconsin will be in different divisions,

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?id=5498692

[KronoRed]

If Michigan and OSU are split up I foresee it working out just as well as the ACC's foolish idea of splitting Miami South and fsu up in an attempt to have them meet every year in their title game.

[Redsfaithful]

Stats are stats, and Columbus is still Columbus.

It's gotten a lot nicer in the last ten years. For whatever that's worth.

[Hoosier Red]

I would think, if tOSU and UM wind up in different divisions, that each team will be allowed to select another school in the other division that they will play every year. In this case UM and tOSU would play every season.

With a championship game, it takes a bit of the shine off the rivalry if they end up playing in the championship game. It might end up somewhat anti-climatic.

I imagine they'd still find a way to protect that rivalry, but as you said the championship game cheapens it a bit.
A good comparison is the Texas-Oklahoma game, they're in the same division, which means that only one will get to play for the Big 12 championship, and it's usually decided by the middle of October who that south champion will be.

The Ohio State-Michigan rivalry would be even better because it would be the last game of the "regular" season. Even in years where one is down, the chance to play spoiler would be huge.

In my opinion I could live with these divisions;

West
Nebraska
Wisconsin
Iowa
Minnesota
Northwestern
Illinois

East
tOSU
tPSU
Michigan
tMSU
Indiana
Purdue

While it's true the Big 3 are bigger names in the East than in the West, the only time East vs. West really matters is in the Championship game, and Nebraska(most likely) or Iowa or Wisconsin would be no pushover.

[Sea Ray]

If OSU and Mich meet a second time in championship game I only see problems coming out of that. What if the losing team (in their first meeting) wins the championship game? How will that play?

If you put them in the same division and play their last game in late Nov it makes that one game huge. What can be better than that?

[Chip R]

If OSU and Mich meet a second time in championship game I only see problems coming out of that. What if the losing team (in their first meeting) wins the championship game? How will that play?

Hence the problem.


If you put them in the same division and play their last game in late Nov it makes that one game huge. What can be better than that?

If - like a few years ago - both are top rated teams, the loser gets screwed. Maybe a last second FG turns the tide or someone sprained an ankle. The losing team can say that if that player was healthy they would have won.

We have to remember that there is no law that says UM and OSU are always going to be the best two teams in the Big T(welv)en. It doesn't diminish the rivalry any when either or both teams have fallen on tough times. You think Florida kids (and fans) don't have the same intensity for the Georgia game if Georgia isn't a top 25 team? The OSU-UM rivalry will survive whether they are in different divisions or not.

[Roy Tucker]

But the problem is, if they are in different divisions, they just won't play that often. From the article in the base note


Take one division template, which features Ohio State, Penn State and Wisconsin on one side and Michigan, Nebraska and Iowa on the other. If the Big Ten had added Nebraska along with the Nittany Lions in 1993 and split into divisions then, the Buckeyes and Wolverines would have met in the title game either three or four times in the last 17 years.

That means 13-14 times out of the last 17 years, they *don't* play. I just can't see that happening.

[dabvu2498]

Why couldn't the Big 10 do the same scheduling that the SEC does? 5 division games, 1 "traditional" rival from the other division (Bama-Tennessee, Florida-LSU, Auburn-UGa) and 2 rotating interdivision games? No, it's not always totally equitable, but it gives the fans what they want. And it hasn't seemed to detract from the SEC Championship games when it's been a rematch.

[Chip R]

But the problem is, if they are in different divisions, they just won't play that often. From the article in the base note.

Not necessarily. It can be a protected rivalry and they can play every year whether they make the championship game or not.

[Roy Tucker]

Not necessarily. It can be a protected rivalry and they can play every year whether they make the championship game or not.

yabbut then you run into the issue of playing 2 weeks straight with different scenarios playing out of that.

maybe both teams have a slot already won in the BT title game so what does the regular season game mean?

or one team pulls off a titanic upset in game #1 only to have to beat them again in game #2 so what did it matter?

or maybe both teams are ranked highly and both games are good.

it just seems with any setup, the muddy waters run deep.

[Chip R]

yabbut then you run into the issue of playing 2 weeks straight with different scenarios playing out of that.

maybe both teams have a slot already won in the BT title game so what does the regular season game mean?

or one team pulls off a titanic upset in game #1 only to have to beat them again in game #2 so what did it matter?

or maybe both teams are ranked highly and both games are good.

it just seems with any setup, the muddy waters run deep.


You can't have it both ways. Either you put them in in the same division and possibly not have the two best teams meet in the championship game or you put them in different divisions and run the risk of either having them play twice or not at all.

Let's just call a spade a spade. It's a money grab and the championship game is basically a big money maker. There's no law that says they have to seperate the conference into divisions but they have to keep up with the Joneses or be relegated to irrelevancy.

[Roy Tucker]

You can't have it both ways. Either you put them in in the same division and possibly not have the two best teams meet in the championship game or you put them in different divisions and run the risk of either having them play twice or not at all.

Let's just call a spade a spade. It's a money grab and the championship game is basically a big money maker. There's no law that says they have to seperate the conference into divisions but they have to keep up with the Joneses or be relegated to irrelevancy.

Yeah, I can agree with this. $$$ trumps all.

[gonelong]

Put tOSU and Mich in 2 different divisions, and then have them meet in the first Big10 game of the season. Each team should have a rivalry game, regardless of division affiliation. An early tOSU/Mich game kicks off the season and IMO would be well received.

More often than not both teams will be highly ranked early, so a W moves you up the polls, and a loss doesn't kill the season for the other team. It keeps both teams relevant in the BCS for the majority of the season. If a rematch in the title game is playing out during the season, the building tension will be thick.

If they meet in the Big10+2 Championship game then you have your traditional winner-takes-all tOSU/Mich matchup at then end of the season, and not simply a repeat of last weeks game. If the loser of the first match wins the final and only has 1 loss, they are still a viable BCS NC candidate.

If the first game was a lopsided game, the national interest will still be there since the first game is so far in the rear-view mirror. If the first game was a close game, then the interest will be very high.

GL

[BuckeyeRed27]

I would like to see OSU, Michigan, Wisky in one division and PSU, Nebraska and Iowa in the other.

I would also like to see OSU vs Michigan and PSU vs. Nebraska both be regular season finales. Many years those would be division deciding games and would set up a playoff of sorts.

[Sea Ray]

Hence the problem.



If - like a few years ago - both are top rated teams, the loser gets screwed. Maybe a last second FG turns the tide or someone sprained an ankle. The losing team can say that if that player was healthy they would have won.

We have to remember that there is no law that says UM and OSU are always going to be the best two teams in the Big T(welv)en. It doesn't diminish the rivalry any when either or both teams have fallen on tough times. You think Florida kids (and fans) don't have the same intensity for the Georgia game if Georgia isn't a top 25 team? The OSU-UM rivalry will survive whether they are in different divisions or not.

You're making my point. Florida and Georgia are in the same division yet the rivalry goes on

[Cedric]

Put tOSU and Mich in 2 different divisions, and then have them meet in the first Big10 game of the season. Each team should have a rivalry game, regardless of division affiliation. An early tOSU/Mich game kicks off the season and IMO would be well received.

More often than not both teams will be highly ranked early, so a W moves you up the polls, and a loss doesn't kill the season for the other team. It keeps both teams relevant in the BCS for the majority of the season. If a rematch in the title game is playing out during the season, the building tension will be thick.

If they meet in the Big10+2 Championship game then you have your traditional winner-takes-all tOSU/Mich matchup at then end of the season, and not simply a repeat of last weeks game. If the loser of the first match wins the final and only has 1 loss, they are still a viable BCS NC candidate.

If the first game was a lopsided game, the national interest will still be there since the first game is so far in the rear-view mirror. If the first game was a close game, then the interest will be very high.

GL

You are sorely mistaken if you think a Michigan vs Ohio State game would work in September or early October. People would go nuts if it was the first Big Ten game.

[Roy Tucker]

You are sorely mistaken if you think a Michigan vs Ohio State game would work in September or early October. People would go nuts if it was the first Big Ten game.

Yeah, its been the last game of the season since 1935 (except for one year). I just don't think you mess with something like that.

Some things are tradition and a recognizable signature for a league and OSU-UM the last game of the season is one of those capstone events. You blow that up and you might as well get rid of the Buckeye logo or change the Michigan helmet or something goofy like that. It is possible for marketing genuises to ruin things. Look at the CART-IRL split or New Coke.

[gonelong]

You are sorely mistaken if you think a Michigan vs Ohio State game would work in September or early October. People would go nuts if it was the first Big Ten game.

Assuming the Big10+2 will have them play each year. That means either player early, mid, or late.

You don't like early. That leaves mid or late.

Frankly, I just can't get behind a middle of the season tOSU/Mich game. A loss by either team before the game and the shine that an earlier game would have had is lost. A mid-season loss to one of your powers drops them in the rankings moreso than an early season loss, affecting the whole league. Can't think of a single benefit to a mid-season game.

Late is troublesome as the game will be devalued if they rematch a week or two later. It could also make a mockery of the game if either team can lose and then still rematch in the Big10 championship game. Who is going to show their hand in the first game if a rematch is likely?

Early has a lot going for it. The bonus is the possibility of the two teams meeting again later in the season. Two meaningful tOSU/Mich games in a season would be fantastic. That 2nd game will be as big (or bigger) than it is now, and would happen a decent number of years. Obviously in a goodly number of years, they won't rematch.

You say it's not going to work.

How is it not going to work? Are tOSU fans suddenly not going to the Shoe? Are Mich fans suddenly not going to the Big House? Is ESPN not pulling GameDay at tOSU/Mich? Is the nation not watching a tOSU/Mich game at 8:00 PM on Saturday in Sept or Oct?

Mich plays ND right before the Big10 schedule and that game is not exactly ignored. Whenever two powerhouses meet early, the game is hyped beyond belief. tOSU/Mich early will work just like tOSU/USC early worked. (obvious non-conf/conf difference)

GL

[gonelong]

Yeah, its been the last game of the season since 1935 (except for one year). I just don't think you mess with something like that.

Some things are tradition and a recognizable signature for a league and OSU-UM the last game of the season is one of those capstone events. You blow that up and you might as well get rid of the Buckeye logo or change the Michigan helmet or something goofy like that. It is possible for marketing genuises to ruin things. Look at the CART-IRL split or New Coke.

I'd rather not mess with it either. I'm quite positive the Big10 didn't want to mess with their signature event either. Too late. The landscape has dictated they change or risk losing relevancy on the national stage.

The Big10 will have a conf championship game, and divisions. The tOSU/Mich game will no longer be the last on the Big10 schedule, the conf game will. The tOSU/Mich game being the last in the regular season will no longer carry the oomph it did before. So they have already messed with it.

Nostalgia and tradition have already lost. The only questions left is what now?

GL

[Chip R]

You're making my point. Florida and Georgia are in the same division yet the rivalry goes on


That's not necessarily the point. The point is that a rivalry can endure despite one team or another not being strong for a while. But I'll give you another example: Florida State and Miami. Different divisions in the same conference but the rivalry is always intense.

[Sea Ray]

That's not necessarily the point. The point is that a rivalry can endure despite one team or another not being strong for a while. But I'll give you another example: Florida State and Miami. Different divisions in the same conference but the rivalry is always intense.

That's why I was puzzled you used that as your example. There's no one doubting that the rivalry can endure a team not being strong for awhile. That's been the case since RR got to Mi. The issue is whether to put them in the same division or not.

The Miami FSU example is a poor one because neither team has done well since the ACC has gone to a Championship game. FSU has played in the game once while Miami never has.

In the Big Ten we're projecting that OSU and MI will compete for the championship game often. If we're thinking that they won't then I agree, it doesn't really matter which division you put them in. I'm trying to avoid a scenario where they'll play twice in a year. That would diminish the game.

[SandyD]

I vote for same division. Seriously. Just go geographic, and have:
NE, MN, IA, WI, IL, NW in the west
OSU, UM, MSU, PSU, Pur, IN in the east.

Have one set non-division game every year if necessary to preserve rivalries that may be broken.

NE needs a rival, and IA seems like a likely choice.

I wasn't crazy about the idea of a championship game when the SEC started theirs, but it's kind of grown on me. And I don't think any rivalries have broken down because of it.

[bucksfan2]

I vote for same division. Seriously. Just go geographic, and have:
NE, MN, IA, WI, IL, NW in the west
OSU, UM, MSU, PSU, Pur, IN in the east.

Have one set non-division game every year if necessary to preserve rivalries that may be broken.

NE needs a rival, and IA seems like a likely choice.

I wasn't crazy about the idea of a championship game when the SEC started theirs, but it's kind of grown on me. And I don't think any rivalries have broken down because of it.

Here is the issue I see with your breakdown. Starting next season the Big Ten will have 4 program schools. Schools that will always be relevant regardless of their record. Teams that have larger athletic budgets, have a history of winning, and really will be cash cows for the Big Ten. Those schools are OSU, UM, PSU, and now Nebraska. After that you have some nice schools in MSU, Wisconsin, Iowa, maybe Purdue. Then you have the bottom feeders, teams that every once in a while while will surprise but aren't to be counted upon to do much. And then you have Indiana.

The problem I see, and I think the problem the new alignment has, is you have three of your top four programs in the same division. And I do think the Big 10 would love to see OSU play UM in the Big Ten championship. How many times have we see the Big 12 title pretty much declared by the OU Texas game mid season? I don't have an issue with OSU and UM being in different divisions if they play every year and it isn't the first game of the season.

[Captain13]

I agree w/the East-West split. I also think the Big 10 should have "rivalry week" to end the season. That week the 6 games should be OH St v Mich, MSU v PSU, IU v. PU, Ill v NW, MN v WI and Iowa V Neb. That, my friends, is a fun day of football. You could schdule 2 games each at noon, 3:30, and 8:00.

[Chip R]

Looks like tOSU president Gordon Gee is OK with UM and tOSU not only being in different divisions but playing earlier in the season.

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?id=5501871

[Reds Fanatic]

It will be officially announced tonight but it looks like they are putting Ohio State and Michigan in seperate divisions. This will almost surely result in that game being moved up earlier in the year in future years because otherwise the possibility would exist of having to play each other in back to back weeks if they met in the championship game.

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncaa/news/story?id=5519832

[guttle11]

Ugh, *sigh*.

[BuckeyeRed27]

Yeah not real happy about this.

The divisions are reported to be:

OSU
Penn St
Wisky
IU
PU
Illinois

Mich
Nebraska
Iowa
NW
MSU
Minnesota

Can't imagine Wisconsin fans are real happy with that breakdown either.

[jredmo2]

Looks like the game will still be the last of the regular season. Best option under the circumstances, IMO. Sure, it's not the same as before, but that was going to happen regardless. And the risk of a rematch in the championship game? What's the problem with that? That would only add more intrigue and heat to the rivalry, and IMO is the ideal situation for the league and the rivalry.

[Unassisted]

And the risk of a rematch in the championship game? What's the problem with that? That would only add more intrigue and heat to the rivalry, and IMO is the ideal situation for the league and the rivalry.It's a tough game for both teams. If you know that you're going to play the same team twice in 2 weeks, which game do you put more emphasis on?

I'd rather see the Big Ten skip the Championship game than replicate the rivalry game a week later. Just award the league championship to the division winner with the higher BCS ranking.

[Chip R]

I'd rather see the Big Ten skip the Championship game than replicate the rivalry game a week later. Just award the league championship to the division winner with the higher BCS ranking.


If you aren't going to have a championship game, just skip the divisions and determine the winner the same way they have done.

But let's not pretend this is about determining a champion and the conference's BCS representative. It's about money and - to a lesser extent - keeping the Big T(welv)en relevant from the end of the regular season to the start of the bowl games. And, possibly, to avoid such a lengthy layoff for the conference champions if they make the BCS championship game.

[KronoRed]

Sad to see the Big 10 + 2 blow this.

[Reds Fanatic]

As much as I love the tradition of OSU Michigan being the last game of the year if you are going to put them in seperate divisions I would think you have to move the game up. It makes no sense as intense as that game is every year to leave a possibility of having to come back and play the team you just beat again the next week. The conferences that have champtionship games do not schedule teams from opposite divisions to play right at the end of the year. I don't ever remember seeing an SEC or Big 12 matchup one week and then they turn around and do it again the next week for the championship.

[BuckeyeRed27]

As much as I love the tradition of OSU Michigan being the last game of the year if you are going to put them in seperate divisions I would think you have to move the game up. It makes no sense as intense as that game is every year to leave a possibility of having to come back and play the team you just beat again the next week. The conferences that have champtionship games do not schedule teams from opposite divisions to play right at the end of the year. I don't ever remember seeing an SEC or Big 12 matchup one week and then they turn around and do it again the next week for the championship.

Yeah it doesn't make any sense to have it be the last game. Too many variables that could make the game meaningless. If those are infact the divisions I guess I would like to see Penn State become the last game and have Michigan be two weeks before that with IU or PU between.

[*BaseClogger*]

YouTube - Rage Against The Machine: Killing In The Name (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QNzIKoAy2pk)

[Unassisted]

If you aren't going to have a championship game, just skip the divisions and determine the winner the same way they have done.

But let's not pretend this is about determining a champion and the conference's BCS representative. It's about money and - to a lesser extent - keeping the Big T(welv)en relevant from the end of the regular season to the start of the bowl games. And, possibly, to avoid such a lengthy layoff for the conference champions if they make the BCS championship game.I'd be OK with no divisions, too. It'd be interesting to hear from BCS championship game coaches whether they think a championship helped/hindered their path to and preparation for the title game.

There aren't enough indoor football venues in the midwest to play a title game. The weather could be really ugly in Chicago in the late November/early December!

[Danny Serafini]

It's official, the divisions are as reported above, and Ohio St. and Michigan will continue to play the last game of the season.

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncaa/news/story?id=5519832

[Chip R]

I'd be OK with no divisions, too. It'd be interesting to hear from BCS championship game coaches whether they think a championship helped/hindered their path to and preparation for the title game.

There aren't enough indoor football venues in the midwest to play a title game. The weather could be really ugly in Chicago in the late November/early December!

There are plenty. Lucas Oil Field in Indy, Ford Field in Detroit, the Metrodome in Minneapolis.

A lot of people would rather have it outside. They have actually been talking about Lambeau Field in Green Bay. There's no denying the weather in the Midwest can be rough in early December. But does the game really need to be played indoors?

[ochre]

There are plenty. Lucas Oil Field in Indy, Ford Field in Detroit, the Metrodome in Minneapolis.

A lot of people would rather have it outside. They have actually been talking about Lambeau Field in Green Bay. There's no denying the weather in the Midwest can be rough in early December. But does the game really need to be played indoors?
Those are all too small.

[Cedric]

Those are all too small.

The first CG is already announced for Indianapolis Lucas Field.

Holds over 70,000.

[Chip R]

Those are all too small.

I don't think so.

[bucksfan2]

There are plenty. Lucas Oil Field in Indy, Ford Field in Detroit, the Metrodome in Minneapolis.

A lot of people would rather have it outside. They have actually been talking about Lambeau Field in Green Bay. There's no denying the weather in the Midwest can be rough in early December. But does the game really need to be played indoors?

I have a feeling that it will be played at Lucas Oil Field and I have a little issue with that. I just get sick and tired of Indy in general getting a bulk of big time NCAA events. I would love to see a rotating game that hits several different venues. I love the idea of an outdoors championship game. Lets be honest these Big 10 teams are built to play in the weather. They know in Nov it gets cold so they need to build a team that can play in inclement weather. No sense in ignoring that when deciding on where to have the game. I would love to see Lambo and Solider Stadium get championship games. Its not going to happen but it sure would be cool, pun intended.

[Roy Tucker]

There are plenty. Lucas Oil Field in Indy, Ford Field in Detroit, the Metrodome in Minneapolis.

A lot of people would rather have it outside. They have actually been talking about Lambeau Field in Green Bay. There's no denying the weather in the Midwest can be rough in early December. But does the game really need to be played indoors?

Yep, I agree.

Big 10 teams build around playing bad-weather games and pride themselves on it. Why not play the championship game outdoors like the midwest football gods meant? The corporate fat cats won't like but but who cares? Let them rattle ther jewelry.

And I think any NFL stadium will be sufficent. They can handle crowds. I'd really like to see the BT championship game rotated around BT stadia (like the Shoe or the Big House) but I seriously doubt that will happen.

[Chip R]

I have a feeling that it will be played at Lucas Oil Field and I have a little issue with that. I just get sick and tired of Indy in general getting a bulk of big time NCAA events. I would love to see a rotating game that hits several different venues. I love the idea of an outdoors championship game. Lets be honest these Big 10 teams are built to play in the weather. They know in Nov it gets cold so they need to build a team that can play in inclement weather. No sense in ignoring that when deciding on where to have the game. I would love to see Lambo and Solider Stadium get championship games. Its not going to happen but it sure would be cool, pun intended.

NCAA HQ is in Indy. It's centrally located and the only teams it would have a home field advantage for are Indiana and Purdue neither of whom are powerhouses. The theory behind playing it inside is that they want a true test of football and don't want weather handicapping the teams. They also want the 80K fans watching the game to be comfortable.

I don't have a problem with an outdoor championship game but the powers that be may not want that.


I'd really like to see the BT championship game rotated around BT stadia (like the Shoe or the Big House) but I seriously doubt that will happen.

Too much of a possible home field advantage for those teams. Would you really want tOSU and Iowa squaring off in Kinnick or Camp Randall?

[ThornWithin81]

I'm getting tired of College Football. Too many bowl games, too much of a "business" approach, especially when you get to the end of the season with these championship games and the bowl structure.

Terrible. I'm not watching this season.

[bucksfan2]

I just saw that two of the protected crossovers are PSU-Nebraska and OSU-Michigan. If your another Big 10 team how can you not love this? The Big boys will play at least 2-3 of the best programs in the Big 10.

[BoydsOfSummer]

I wish they were in the same division. It would add even more to that game every year. The way they have set it up, tOSU/UM could play back to back weeks for the Big Ten title should it play out that way (and often does).

[Brutus]

I wish they were in the same division. It would add even more to that game every year. The way they have set it up, tOSU/UM could play back to back weeks for the Big Ten title should it play out that way (and often does).

Truth is, based on the records of the 12 schools, the two may have met only 3-4 times in the championship game over the last 20 years if given the new format. Granted, the schedules would have played out differently, but nonetheless it wouldn't happen as often as people assume.

For the small amount lost in the meaning of this game in different divisions, the prospect of playing one another in the championship game is even bigger.