Ohio State hoops 2010-11

[Brutus]

Game numero uno is in the books for the Ohio State basketball team. Ohio State blew by a weak North Carolina A&T club 102-61.

It was a pretty sleek game statistically for Ohio State. Jared Sullinger had 19 points and 14 rebounds, Dallas Lauderdale had 13 & 12 and freshman point guard Aaron Craft had 8 points and 9 assists off the bench--with no turnovers.

Next up for Ohio State is a tough game at No. 11 Florida on Tuesday as part of ESPN's 24-hour college basketball marathon. That will be an interesting test for them.

I kind of thought the No. 4 ranking was too lofty this early in the season for Ohio State. But their depth and talent has been tremendous so far. The chemistry, even in liberal substitutions, has been seamless.

[Redsfaithful]

Shows how closely I follow college basketball until later in the season, but I had no idea they were so highly ranked. I knew they were going to be highly touted with four starters coming back and a really good freshman class, but I was expecting something in the 10-15 range.

I'm excited for this year, seems like a team that's capable of a deep run in March.

[bucksfan2]

IMO the success of the team rest in that freshman Aaron Craft. They have needed a PG ever since Connely left. If Craft can play well this season they have a dangerous team. If Bufford is force to play PG I think the year will end up disappointing.

[Brutus]

IMO the success of the team rest in that freshman Aaron Craft. They have needed a PG ever since Connely left. If Craft can play well this season they have a dangerous team. If Bufford is force to play PG I think the year will end up disappointing.

Craft is the real deal. I saw him several times in AAU ball with All-Ohio, and trust me when I say what he's doing right now is not an illusion. He lacks the pure explosive talent of some of the top tier point guards, but he's as pure a point guard as you could possibly ask for.

[Cedric]

Really early but I highly doubt anyone but Duke is better than OSU.

[Captain Hook]

Really early but I highly doubt anyone but Duke is better than OSU.

If Florida proves to be a top ten team and the Bucks stay healthy then yeah.Signs point to that being the case with Florida but I'm not going to rush judgment on either team just yet.No doubt OSU is going to be really good but, I'm not sure it's them and Duke in a class of their own.

Either way, Ohio State played a fantastic game tonight against a team that made a lot of big shots and even threatened to pull ahead of OSU at one point.The back and fourth was amazing.What a fun games it was to watch.

[Brutus]

If Florida proves to be a top ten team and the Bucks stay healthy then yeah.Signs point to that being the case with Florida but I'm not going to rush judgment on either team just yet.No doubt OSU is going to be really good but, I'm not sure it's them and Duke in a class of their own.

Either way, Ohio State played a fantastic game tonight against a team that made a lot of big shots and even threatened to pull ahead of OSU at one point.The back and fourth was amazing.What a fun games it was to watch.

Defensively, Duke probably gets after it better than anyone. But Ohio State's offensive firepower is as good as it gets this year... at least from what we've seen so far.

Tonight people will talk about Florida's awful defense. But a big point they're missing is that Ohio State was beating Florida's press and getting easy buckets before they could get back and get set defensively. Then after Ohio State countered with several big baskets, Florida just kind of quit.

I don't know whether or not it's a class of their own, but I do think Duke and Ohio State are the best bets right now to get to the Final Four. Kansas State is a good team, but the jury is still out on them. Michigan State has the chance to be in that class, as does a few other teams.

[Captain Hook]

Defensively, Duke probably gets after it better than anyone. But Ohio State's offensive firepower is as good as it gets this year... at least from what we've seen so far.

Tonight people will talk about Florida's awful defense. But a big point they're missing is that Ohio State was beating Florida's press and getting easy buckets before they could get back and get set defensively. Then after Ohio State countered with several big baskets, Florida just kind of quit.

I don't know whether or not it's a class of their own, but I do think Duke and Ohio State are the best bets right now to get to the Final Four. Kansas State is a good team, but the jury is still out on them. Michigan State has the chance to be in that class, as does a few other teams.

I started thinking about half way through the first half that if Donovan didn't give up on the full court press the Buckeyes would take advantage sooner or later.Normally I wouldn't second guess a guy that has had so much success but, I really feel like he didn't give his guys a chance.Even when it was painfully obvious that it wasn't going to work they kept pressing.IMO it was more a case of bad strategy then it was Florida players not playing defense.

[Brutus]

I started thinking about half way through the first half that if Donovan didn't give up on the full court press the Buckeyes would take advantage sooner or later.Normally I wouldn't second guess a guy that has had so much success but, I really feel like he didn't give his guys a chance.Even when it was painfully obvious that it wasn't going to work they kept pressing.IMO it was more a case of bad strategy then it was Florida players not playing defense.

I definitely didn't understand the reluctance to pull off the pressure.

It was so clear, even to Donovan, that they weren't getting Craft rattled, they decided to double him on the in-bounds so they could deny the ball. All Ohio State did, then, was bring up Buford to accept the trigger and Ohio State used the newly created man advantage to get outlet quickly down the court and score easily.

At that juncture, Donovan should have scrapped the press and worked on his team playing halfcourt defense. Very strange decision indeed.

[bucksfan2]

I was very, very impressed with OSU against Florida. A couple of comments about the game.

Craft looked good. Steady PG who can hit the outside shot when needed. His job is to get the offense started and get the ball to scorers.

I make no secret about it, Bufford is probably my least favorite player of the Thad Matta era. He is supremely talented but just takes too many poor shots. Too many "only a good shot if it goes in" type shots. I was impressed with how he handled the PG position. He got the offense started and ran an offense. I don't mind when he shoots, I just don't like him jacking up quick shots early in the clock. He didn't do that last night.

Dare I say it but David Lighty looked like Even Turner. IMO he is the key to the season. He can guard anyone from the 2-5 spot. His shot looks much, much, much better.

Sullinger will be a beast this season. He looked good and quick on the blocks last night. It will be interested to see how his mid-range game looks. But he knows how to move without the ball and find openings. His defense does need some help, but what freshman doesn't need to work on D.

Thad Matta played man to man. I think I was most happy about that last night.

[BuckWild03]

I know it's early, but after last night's game, I am convinced that this is the best Buckeyes TEAM, with an emphasis on TEAM, I have ever seen in my 26 years of existence.

They made Florida's press look silly and were not afraid to make the extra pass even passing up an open shot for a better shot at times.

They just have phenomenal chemistry for so many young guys. I know you have the glue with Lighty, Buford and Diebler, but Sullinger, Thomas and Craft have stepped in and played like they have been teammates of the older guys for years.

I am very excited about this team!

[Reds Freak]

Really good early showing. But let's remember it's November and my guess is that Florida team isn't going to be as good as its current ranking. However, I think this is a very 'likeable' team. Even during the Oden, Conley, Cook year, I had a hard time rooting for a team like that because everyone knew they were one-and-dones. When I think about those players, I don't even consider them Buckeyes. But I agree with BuckWild, this might be the best team, in the true sense of the word, at Ohio State in a long time...

It's interesting too that Donovan said after the game that this OSU team is better without Turner. No offense to Turner's abilities, but they aren't as one-dimensional as last year...

[Cedric]

Really good early showing. But let's remember it's November and my guess is that Florida team isn't going to be as good as its current ranking. However, I think this is a very 'likeable' team. Even during the Oden, Conley, Cook year, I had a hard time rooting for a team like that because everyone knew they were one-and-dones. When I think about those players, I don't even consider them Buckeyes. But I agree with BuckWild, this might be the best team, in the true sense of the word, at Ohio State in a long time...

It's interesting too that Donovan said after the game that this OSU team is better without Turner. No offense to Turner's abilities, but they aren't as one-dimensional as last year...

It's really early, I agree on that. Can this Buckeye team stop the ball? Does this Buckeye team have enough inside depth to compete with some teams?

[BuckWild03]

It's really early, I agree on that. Can this Buckeye team stop the ball? Does this Buckeye team have enough inside depth to compete with some teams?

I think this is one question that we will start to see teams with an inside presence explore this season--trying to bait Sullinger in to foul trouble. I think that will be his biggest obstacle in learning to handle that this year.

Lauderdale is a dominating shot blocker in the mold of Ken Johnson but he's also going to have 2 or 3 silly fouls every game.

Beyond that, who do we have to go to? I don't think of Kecman as much of an inside presence. Anyone know anything about Evan Ravenel? This may very well be the team's achilles heal and where the team will really have to rely on a zone defense if the big guys get in to foul trouble.

[WMR]

Ohio State is legit. Eddie Munster didn't do his team any favors by trying to keep the press on when it was clearly sabotaging his team's chance at a victory however.

[BuckeyeRed27]

Up to #2 in the most recent poll.

I haven't watched the last two games, but they seemed like sluggish blowouts if that makes sense.

They play Florida State at their place in the Big 10/ACC tomorrow night.

[traderumor]

An ugly, Big 10 like game where both teams played shut down D. The game was in the Bucks control throughout, Florida St. just doesn't have much offense. D and rebounding got it done for the Bucks.

Their outside shooting is a concern for me. FSU packed the zone in the first half to keep the game close despite their offensive woes. When OSU started penetrating in the 2nd half, FSU started swatting balls left and right (they were letting them play, let me tell you, Sullinger was beat to death in there with only a few calls).

I dunno what to think after that game. Last night Craft was dribbling around, then decided to make a move after half the shot clock was gone, forcing several bad shots due to the clock running down. The D is back, nice switching and rotating man to man.

[bucksfan2]

An ugly, Big 10 like game where both teams played shut down D. The game was in the Bucks control throughout, Florida St. just doesn't have much offense. D and rebounding got it done for the Bucks.

Their outside shooting is a concern for me. FSU packed the zone in the first half to keep the game close despite their offensive woes. When OSU started penetrating in the 2nd half, FSU started swatting balls left and right (they were letting them play, let me tell you, Sullinger was beat to death in there with only a few calls).

I dunno what to think after that game. Last night Craft was dribbling around, then decided to make a move after half the shot clock was gone, forcing several bad shots due to the clock running down. The D is back, nice switching and rotating man to man.

I was somewhat impressed with the game. Every game isn't going to be a run and shoot game that is offensive. What was impressive is the defensive effort by OSU. Everyone on OSU played a great defensive game, that will win more games than not, especially with the type of offensive players OSU has.

A bigger concern to me is Bufford. The guy just doesn't get it. There is something holding him back from being a very good player. Last season it was an awful shot selection. This season he just doesn't seem to play smart basketball. It was disappointing to see him pick up his 4th and then go ahead and pick up a stupid offensive foul for his 5th on the next possession.

[Brutus]

Ohio State had 40 points, 13 rebounds and 3 steals tonight from Jared Sullinger. And they needed every bit of it, shaking off a pesky IUPUI 75-64. IUPUI actually led 50-41 with about 11 minutes left, but the Buckeyes seemed to wake up after their 9-day layoff, putting them away with a 34-14 run to close out the game.

[Marc D]

Ohio State had 40 points, 13 rebounds and 3 steals tonight from Jared Sullinger. And they needed every bit of it, shaking off a pesky IUPUI 75-64. IUPUI actually led 50-41 with about 11 minutes left, but the Buckeyes seemed to wake up after their 9-day layoff, putting them away with a 34-14 run to close out the game.

I'm running out of adjectives for Sullinger already. What a beast.

The best part for OSU fans is that if the NBA does have a lock out we might get 2 years of him.

[Brutus]

I'm running out of adjectives for Sullinger already. What a beast.

The best part for OSU fans is that if the NBA does have a lock out we might get 2 years of him.

He's the most polished post player as a freshman I can remember, granting that I'm younger than some. Still, his hands isn't something that can be taught. His footwork can, but not with the efficiency he has. Just a tremendous post player and has a face-up game that Ohio State fans have yet to truly see (i.e., he'll hit jumpers if they allow him to).

[Redsfaithful]

I don't remember who it was, but someone on here thought it was ridiculous that I thought the Buckeyes would be better this year, even with losing Evan Turner. That's looking like a no brainer at this point.

[BuckeyeRed27]

I don't remember who it was, but someone on here thought it was ridiculous that I thought the Buckeyes would be better this year, even with losing Evan Turner. That's looking like a no brainer at this point.

We'll see when they get into Big 10 play, but it is hard to argue that they are a more balanced team.

[Brutus]

Ohio State ran Oakland out of the gym tonight 92-63 behind six double-figure scorers.

With the Big Ten looking kind of sluggish the last few weeks, the conference seems to run through Columbus for this year.

[Razor Shines]

Without Irving Ohio st. Is as good as duke, possibly better. Iu played decent in the second half but it didn't matter.

[Brutus]

Without Irving Ohio st. Is as good as duke, possibly better. Iu played decent in the second half but it didn't matter.

Yeah with respect to Kansas, it's hard not to put Duke & OSU slightly ahead of KU right now. I'd say OSU is 1 and Duke 2, though with Irving, maybe I'd say Duke 1A and Ohio State 1B.

Either way, I think Ohio State is really hard to defend. You can't zone them because of their ball movement and shooting. You can't go man because Sullinger is too good on the block. You can't double down on him because OSU spreads the floor so well and he's a good passer, so he'll just throw it back outside for an open shot.

There's not a good way to defend them. Perhaps you could try pressing and speeding up the tempo, but they've got good long athletes to break the press and get easy buckets. I don't envy opposing coaches right now.

[improbus]

I love this OSU team, but they are very untested (outside of a mediocre Florida team). I'll be interested to see how they perform against a pretty tough Big Ten schedule.

My favorite part of watching them is hoping that Buford starts taking ridiculous shots. He is the John Salmons/Jamal Crawford of the Buckeyes. Very entertaining stuff.

[BuckeyeRed27]

Playing Meechigan right now and up 1 at the half. Not watching the game, but UM started off hitting 5 of their first 6 shots and cooled off a bit.

[traderumor]

Good foul shooting down the stretch. OSU played a solid game. Michigan won the battle with Sullinger as he had an ugly game due to sagging zone, but lost the game. Since the point is winning the game...

[Reds Fanatic]

Ohio State should move up to number 1 as Duke just lost to Florida State.

[BuckeyeRed27]

Ohio State should move up to number 1 as Duke just lost to Florida State.

Polls in basketball are largely irrelevant but it's still pretty sweet to be #1. Go Bucks!

[bucksfan2]

Watched the game on and off. Craft played like an upperclassman and Sullinger played like a freshman. He looked rattled and picked up some silly fouls (although Craft's foul of the 3 point shooter was awful). Lauderdale had completely disappeared this season and I am surprised. He even looks lost on the defensive end.

I love Lighty but man is that a god awful free throw shot. It is nice that he has the ability to be the trigger man on inbound passes because he is a poor FT shooter.

[Captain Hook]

Not that it really means anything right now but it's always nice to be #1.

Go Bucks!!!

[traderumor]

Watched the game on and off. Craft played like an upperclassman and Sullinger played like a freshman. He looked rattled and picked up some silly fouls (although Craft's foul of the 3 point shooter was awful). Lauderdale had completely disappeared this season and I am surprised. He even looks lost on the defensive end.

I love Lighty but man is that a god awful free throw shot. It is nice that he has the ability to be the trigger man on inbound passes because he is a poor FT shooter.Sullinger had his worst game of the year, had trouble with the five men hanging on him every time he touched the ball ;) But he more than made up for it with his PSU performance.

[Unassisted]

Not that it really means anything right now but it's always nice to be #1.

Go Bucks!!!First time they've been #1 in the AP poll since 1962, according to a Dispatch reporter's tweet. I had no idea it had been that long.

[BuckeyeRed27]

First time they've been #1 in the AP poll since 1962, according to a Dispatch reporter's tweet. I had no idea it had been that long.

I'm not sure that is right. They were #1 for parts of the 2007 season.

[Unassisted]

I'm not sure that is right. They were #1 for parts of the 2007 season.You're probably right. I see now that I read the tweet (http://twitter.com/#%21/BBaptistHoops/status/27066280452292610) wrong. He said it was just the SECOND time since 1962.

[Brutus]

This prolly speaks for itself..

YouTube - Party in the O-S-U (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6du8UQZJAhI)

[Buckeye33]

Mr. Craft, you have been a welcome addition to this very good OSU basketball team but please never sing on camera EVER again!

[Brutus]

Mr. Craft, you have been a welcome addition to this very good OSU basketball team but please never sing on camera EVER again!

Needless to say, none of them knocked it out of the park with stunning vocals lol

[LoganBuck]

Ohio State has been tested today in Illinois.

[BuckeyeRed27]

20-0
Sullinger is a beast. Loved what I saw from the team yesterday. Bring on Purdue.

[traderumor]

Purdue will be another tough game, but they have not been playing their best basketball either during this stretch. I watched them a little against MSU last night and both of those teams are good, but not elite. I kind of expected a loss yesterday, but once you get this far along undefeated, it is a matter of who and when, not if.

[Brutus]

Purdue will be another tough game, but they have not been playing their best basketball either during this stretch. I watched them a little against MSU last night and both of those teams are good, but not elite. I kind of expected a loss yesterday, but once you get this far along undefeated, it is a matter of who and when, not if.

Ohio State definitely doesn't have anyone that can defend JaJuan Johnson. He's so difficult to guard because he's got some post moves, though mostly finesse moves, but this year he's become such a face-up threat. He kind of plays a little like Kevin Durant this year in some ways.

But his ability to step out and hit a shot, play away from the basket, will be tough for OSU. The reason Mike Tisdale was tough yesterday for Illinois is that he's able to drag Sullinger & Lauderdale away from the basket -- something they're not comfortable with. Lauderdale is good for hedging screens because of his length, but he isn't comfortable guarding out there.

For that reason, I suspect Johnson will get his points. Sullinger & Johnson will probably both go for 25, as JJ isn't a great defender.

So the issue, then, becomes whether or not Ohio State can defend E'Twaun Moore as well as they've done with Battle & McCamey of Penn State & Illinois respectively. If they do, I can't see Purdue going into Columbus and winning. If they don't, could be a fantastic finish. Purdue is getting just enough out of Barlow, Smith, Byrd, etc. to keep pace, but they can't afford off-nights for their two stars.

[Kingspoint]

Good Luck Buckeye Hoops' fans.

I hope you win it all this year.

[bucksfan2]

Ohio State definitely doesn't have anyone that can defend JaJuan Johnson. He's so difficult to guard because he's got some post moves, though mostly finesse moves, but this year he's become such a face-up threat. He kind of plays a little like Kevin Durant this year in some ways.

But his ability to step out and hit a shot, play away from the basket, will be tough for OSU. The reason Mike Tisdale was tough yesterday for Illinois is that he's able to drag Sullinger & Lauderdale away from the basket -- something they're not comfortable with. Lauderdale is good for hedging screens because of his length, but he isn't comfortable guarding out there.

For that reason, I suspect Johnson will get his points. Sullinger & Johnson will probably both go for 25, as JJ isn't a great defender.

So the issue, then, becomes whether or not Ohio State can defend E'Twaun Moore as well as they've done with Battle & McCamey of Penn State & Illinois respectively. If they do, I can't see Purdue going into Columbus and winning. If they don't, could be a fantastic finish. Purdue is getting just enough out of Barlow, Smith, Byrd, etc. to keep pace, but they can't afford off-nights for their two stars.

It will be a tough game and OSU is bound to lose one sooner or later. As for Johnson I wonder if OSU will put Lighty on him. Lighty is one of the most versitile players I can remember in college basketball. I don't know if he has the size to play with him on the blocks but he should be able to guard him away from the basket.

The thing that drives me nuts about Thad is probably his best quality. He never panics and always sticks to his strategy. He doesn't make snap decisions and keeps with his game plan. When OSU went down 8 to Illinois I got worried and wanted changes. OSU didn't change and eventually wore down the Illini.

[BuckeyeRed27]

The Buckeyes are just laying wood to Purdue right now. wooooooo

[traderumor]

What was that, the Globetrotters vs. the Generals? Aaron Craft as Curly Neal, Jared Sullinger as Meadowlark Lemon, DeShaun Thomas as Goose Tatum.

[Captain Hook]

Bucks looked like the best team in the country tonight against Purdue.If they keep this up they'll be hard to beat come tournament time.As long as they stay healthy they're the team to beat imo.

[New York Red]

I already thought they were the best team in the country, but after that display last night, there's no doubt left. I think this OSU team cuts the nets in March. They are scary good.

[sonny]

I already thought they were the best team in the country, but after that display last night, there's no doubt left. I think this OSU team cuts the nets in March. They are scary good.

I'm on the fence about this team. I can see them winning it all, but I have this feeling in the pit of my stomach that come March, this team will forget how to play team Basketball.

Sullinger is a scary talent but I think they might rely on him too much in pressure situations. Craft is the wild card on this team. If e can play like he did the other night consistantly, we be lookin' good. OTOH, if he is inconsistant, I could see a second or third round exit.

[Unassisted]

I'm on the fence about this team. I can see them winning it all, but I have this feeling in the pit of my stomach that come March, this team will forget how to play team Basketball.
I watched the Illinois game and can understand that POV. They definitely have some rough edges.

[Brutus]

I watched the Illinois game and can understand that POV. They definitely have some rough edges.

I'm not seeing the rough edges. That's not to say they're perfect, as no team is, but they're about as complete a team as you could ask for.

First, in response to the earlier comment about team basketball, I don't think it will change. Craft, Sullinger & Sibert have played together for 4 years in AAU and play pretty much as they're playing now. They lost only a handful of AAU games out of nearly 200, and won 3 national titles together.

Throw in David Lighty & Jon Diebler, who have been consummate team players since they got to Ohio State, and what you see is what you get with them. William Buford was a little iffy with shot selection early in his career, but even he's really thrived with the team concept. They're one of the more unselfish teams I've ever seen, especially considering they don't play in a motion, flex or swing offense that is more predicated on passing.

But really, the only thing this team has lacked this year has been the ability to consistently put teams away. I think that's more about playing board with the schedule than anything, as they showed against Purdue they have the ability to play at an extremely high level.

Looking at it: dominant post player, heady, talented point guard, scorers, shooters, perimeter defenders, a shot-blocker/screener, and a scorer off the bench capable of putting up 20 on a given night. There really aren't any soft spots on that team.

I think the only possible weakness with Ohio State is if you can get them in a physical, full court game and hope to get a few guys in foul trouble or a little worn down, they don't go real deep. But even then, you're running a risk because of their ability to score in transition, and they'll usually break pressure with ease.

[traderumor]

I got to watch the NW game from about the last 5 minutes of the 1st half on. NW nearly stole that game with the good old fashioned stalling tactic and finally hit a few 3's. Run the shotclock, bombs away on a 3 and hope--those geniuses at NW are clearly just smarter than everyone else ;)

This is a game where those who didn't see the game would say "really?" or "I told you so," but I told my boys earlier in the day that this was the perfect trap game, and then with Shurna out, it became even more so for that one game. NW did what they wanted to do, and probably feel pretty good about themselves today.

I thought Ohio State played well, NW just limited the number of possessions. The Buckeyes had a blowout working until that flukey 7 point play. Get on the bus, get of town.

I will be very surprised if they make it through this stretch of games undefeated. Michigan, @Wisc, @ Purdue, Mich. St. That will be hard to not stub a toe.

But, I am of a mind that the sooner the undefeated tag goes away, the better. It won't change a thing for seeding and it will remove some of the pressure of being undefeated this late in the season.

[bucksfan2]

I got to watch the NW game from about the last 5 minutes of the 1st half on. NW nearly stole that game with the good old fashioned stalling tactic and finally hit a few 3's. Run the shotclock, bombs away on a 3 and hope--those geniuses at NW are clearly just smarter than everyone else ;)

This is a game where those who didn't see the game would say "really?" or "I told you so," but I told my boys earlier in the day that this was the perfect trap game, and then with Shurna out, it became even more so for that one game. NW did what they wanted to do, and probably feel pretty good about themselves today.

I thought Ohio State played well, NW just limited the number of possessions. The Buckeyes had a blowout working until that flukey 7 point play. Get on the bus, get of town.

I will be very surprised if they make it through this stretch of games undefeated. Michigan, @Wisc, @ Purdue, Mich. St. That will be hard to not stub a toe.

But, I am of a mind that the sooner the undefeated tag goes away, the better. It won't change a thing for seeding and it will remove some of the pressure of being undefeated this late in the season.

I only watched a handful of minutes and those consisted of very early in the game and the last 5 minutes. Northwestern used the textbook game plan to upsetting a more talent team. You take the air out of the ball and hit the 3. The problem with that game plan is that if you don't hit the 3 at a high rate you are blown out of the game.

Late in the game Northwestern was down 10 points but hit 3's on 3-4 straight possessions. Couple that with OSU going 1-4 from the line + missing the front end of a 1 and 1. Only a handful of teams have the ability to play like NW and be successful at it. Notre Dame comes to mind but you often find out that their success is very limited in the tournament.

[BuckeyeRed27]

At home against Meechigan tonight at 7pm EST

[cincrazy]

This team is really impressing me. I know the Michigan game wasn't pretty, but they pulled out yet another one. The Big 10 probably lags behind the Big East this year (a huge part of that reason being that the Big East has 32 teams), but it's incredibly deep. Even teams like Penn State, Northwestern, and Michigan can beat anyone on any given night. Yet this OSU team hasn't lost once so far. Pulling out all of these close games is really going to help come tourney time, IMO.

The one thing that really concerns me is the free throw shooting. That could loom large come March.

[bucksfan2]

This team is really impressing me. I know the Michigan game wasn't pretty, but they pulled out yet another one. The Big 10 probably lags behind the Big East this year (a huge part of that reason being that the Big East has 32 teams), but it's incredibly deep. Even teams like Penn State, Northwestern, and Michigan can beat anyone on any given night. Yet this OSU team hasn't lost once so far. Pulling out all of these close games is really going to help come tourney time, IMO.

The one thing that really concerns me is the free throw shooting. That could loom large come March.

The FT shooting could come back to haunt them. The one thing I can notice is Sullinger's FT stroke. I like the stroke he just seems like a very streak FT shooter. He may be the type of guy who will go 9-10 in one game and then 5-10 in another. Lighty IMO is the biggest problem at the line. Guy can get to the line but has trouble converting.

[traderumor]

I've been noticing it for several weeks now, I see Matta & Co. are finally speaking out about the hack-a-Shack method currently being used to "defend" Sullinger. I have never understood why referees think that just because a guy is huge and tough that it should not still consider the contact a foul.

[BuckeyeRed27]

Since 2004 Ohio State is 22-2 against Michigan combined in football and men's basketball.

[Revering4Blue]

Sullinger unspoiled by success


“I want to be different. I don’t want to be the stereotypical, flashy athlete, the guy a lot of people look at and assume doesn’t work hard. I’ve never been flashy. I never will be flashy. I don’t want that.”

He smiles.

“I want to be Jared Sullinger,” he says. “Or just Jared.”



The Buckeyes advanced to the 2007 NCAA title game behind center Greg Oden, who was the No. 1 pick in the NBA draft. And they won a share of last season’s Big Ten title mainly because of the play of Wooden Award winner Evan Turner.

As good as those squads were – and as successful as Oden and Turner may have been – the feeling around the program is that Thad Matta has his best team yet in Columbus – and his best player.

http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/basketball/news?slug=jn-sullinger020111

[traderumor]

Well, the beat goes on. Wisconsin have it in them? They'll have to do it with home court advantage, because this is one of Wiscy's weaker teams in Bo Ryan's tenure.

[Brutus]

Well, the beat goes on. Wisconsin have it in them? They'll have to do it with home court advantage, because this is one of Wiscy's weaker teams in Bo Ryan's tenure.

It's one of Ryan's better teams, actually.

They're 7th in the country at adjusted efficiency margin. They're second in the country at offensive efficiency, scoring about 1.2 points per possession.

Taylor & Leuer are two of the very best players in America. This will be Ohio State's toughest game they'll play all season until/unless they get to the Elite 8 or beyond.

[Joseph]

OSU is legit it appears.

[traderumor]

It's one of Ryan's better teams, actually.

They're 7th in the country at adjusted efficiency margin. They're second in the country at offensive efficiency, scoring about 1.2 points per possession.

Taylor & Leuer are two of the very best players in America. This will be Ohio State's toughest game they'll play all season until/unless they get to the Elite 8 or beyond.Thanks for the actually. I've seen a lot of Wiscy teams over the years, they usually have more talent on the floor than they do this year. Your opinion of the two players is an exaggeration. Maybe in the Big 10, but "two of the very best players in America" would make them 1st team All-Americans. Will they make Honorable or Special Mention?

I will have to plead complete ignorance to your evidence, but my first thought is that a ball/clock control team like them would score high in something measuring efficiency. But really, throwing out those type of things tells me someone had their mind made up before they found the "evidence." I really take it as similar to someone trying to get me to reconsider going out with the girl that gets good grades and has a nice personality. "She is a very technically proficient kisser and has a great, wry sense of humor. Did I mention her ACT score?"

[traderumor]

nm

[Hoosier Red]

I will have to plead complete ignorance to your evidence, but my first thought is that a ball/clock control team like them would score high in something measuring efficiency.

While it's true that teams "like Wisconsin" tend to score at a more efficient rate, I don't think it has all that much to do with "ball control."

The longer you hold onto the ball, the more of a chance there is for a turnover, and if you're holding on to the ball just to slow down the game(Wisconsin doesn't do that,) that means you're using 10-15 seconds of clock without really having any particular benefit from offense.

FWIW, Ohio State averages 63 possessions per game while Wisconsin average 57. Say they split the difference and play 60 possessions each this game, Ohio State would be averaging a 69-60 win over every other opponent, while Wisconsin would be averaging a 72-62 win over every other conference opponent.

As for other Badger teams being more talented, while I disagree with Jordan Taylor or Jon Leuer as All American quality players, Wisconsin's never really depended on All-Americans.

Aside from Devin Harris, have they ever had a 1st round draft pick?

Given that the two teams seem to be evenly matched statistically, and the game is in Wisconsin, I'd give the slight edge to the Badgers.

[dabvu2498]

Aside from Devin Harris, have they ever had a 1st round draft pick?



Alando Tucker. :D

[bucksfan2]

FWIW, Ohio State averages 63 possessions per game while Wisconsin average 57. Say they split the difference and play 60 possessions each this game, Ohio State would be averaging a 69-60 win over every other opponent, while Wisconsin would be averaging a 72-62 win over every other conference opponent.

The key to beating OSU is to limit the offensive possessions and make the Buckeyes defend deep in to the shot clock. Play a game similar to that of Northwestern, take the air out of the ball, work with the final 15 seconds of the shot clock, and hit your 3's. If there is anytime in the country right now that can do that to a T and be successful its Wisconsin.

[traderumor]

While it's true that teams "like Wisconsin" tend to score at a more efficient rate, I don't think it has all that much to do with "ball control."

The longer you hold onto the ball, the more of a chance there is for a turnover, and if you're holding on to the ball just to slow down the game(Wisconsin doesn't do that,) that means you're using 10-15 seconds of clock without really having any particular benefit from offense.

FWIW, Ohio State averages 63 possessions per game while Wisconsin average 57. Say they split the difference and play 60 possessions each this game, Ohio State would be averaging a 69-60 win over every other opponent, while Wisconsin would be averaging a 72-62 win over every other conference opponent.

As for other Badger teams being more talented, while I disagree with Jordan Taylor or Jon Leuer as All American quality players, Wisconsin's never really depended on All-Americans.

Aside from Devin Harris, have they ever had a 1st round draft pick?

Given that the two teams seem to be evenly matched statistically, and the game is in Wisconsin, I'd give the slight edge to the Badgers.I'm not sure I agree with that premise in basketball. Teams with short possessions are likely playing high risk/high reward basketball, using more possessions to create more scoring opportunities. Anecdotally, higher turnover teams tend to be playing at a faster pace has been my observation. A ball/clock control team, by definition, is going to get thumped if they turn the ball over at a high rate.

[Hoosier Red]

TR, I think you're correct in seeing the correlation, but I disagree about the cause.
Teams that play slow "ball control" don't do so because it makes them more efficient, they do so because they are efficient. Lower possessions is a result of not as many turnovers on either side. Because a team like Wisconsin is comfortable enough in its base offense, it gambles less often on defense and forces long possessions. Because of this, they also get relatively fewer transition baskets.

The strategy you are speaking of is much more prevalent in smaller conferences, with one notable exception, the ACC where teams routinely score in the 80s and 90s. This is because these teams will play more possessions, but will give up a lot more baskets on defense as a result.

As for using this strategy to beat Ohio State, again I don't think this strategy is necessarily an end all be all strategy, but what it does is keep lesser teams from getting blown out, and if the game is within 10 points in the last 10 minutes, it's a lot easier to win with a few 3 pointers in a row.

Wisconsin is not a lesser team to the degree that Michigan or Northwestern were either and are less of a threat to be blown out, so they'll probably play a game fairly close to what Ohio State has averaged, somewhere between 57(Wisconsin's Average) and 63(Ohio State's average.)

[Brutus]

Thanks for the actually. I've seen a lot of Wiscy teams over the years, they usually have more talent on the floor than they do this year. Your opinion of the two players is an exaggeration. Maybe in the Big 10, but "two of the very best players in America" would make them 1st team All-Americans. Will they make Honorable or Special Mention?

I will have to plead complete ignorance to your evidence, but my first thought is that a ball/clock control team like them would score high in something measuring efficiency. But really, throwing out those type of things tells me someone had their mind made up before they found the "evidence." I really take it as similar to someone trying to get me to reconsider going out with the girl that gets good grades and has a nice personality. "She is a very technically proficient kisser and has a great, wry sense of humor. Did I mention her ACT score?"

It's no exaggeration. You can be two of the best players in America without being first-team All-Americans. Surely you don't believe that you can only carry that label if you're one of the top-5 players in America? I would say if you're in the top 10, 15 or top 20, the label still fits. Leuer and Taylor would be considered just that by most peoples' definition. They're both in line to be first-team All-Big Ten selections.

Ball control has very little to do with efficiency. Effiency is about how many points you score per possession. Going slower doesn't mean doing better.

Case in point, using KenPom.com for my data (a great site to check out if you want to learn more about the use of tempo-free statistics in basketball): of the 25 slowest-playing teams in America, measured by possessions per game, and of which Wisconsin is the very slowest, only six of the 25 teams rank in the top-100 in the country at offensive efficiency. On the other end, of the 25 fastest teams in the country in tempo, nine (9) of the teams rank in the top-100 in efficiency. So slower does not equal more efficient.

You say I had my mind made up before I found the evidence... it seems to me you are the one with your mind made up, as you're trying to downplay or completely ignore the evidence without understanding its' meaning or content. And no, I actually was already aware of the evidence because I follow college basketball very, very closely and watch a ton of it.

This Wisconsin team is very, very good. Their defense is not as good as a few teams they've had in the past, but they're an excellent team none the less (as I said, 7th overall in efficiency margin, though today they are up to 5th, behind Ohio State, Texas, Kansas, and Duke).

[traderumor]

It's no exaggeration. You can be two of the best players in America without being first-team All-Americans. Surely you don't believe that you can only carry that label if you're one of the top-5 players in America? I would say if you're in the top 10, 15 or top 20, the label still fits. Leuer and Taylor would be considered just that by most peoples' definition. They're both in line to be first-team All-Big Ten selections.

Ball control has very little to do with efficiency. Effiency is about how many points you score per possession. Going slower doesn't mean doing better.

Case in point, using KenPom.com for my data (a great site to check out if you want to learn more about the use of tempo-free statistics in basketball): of the 25 slowest-playing teams in America, measured by possessions per game, and of which Wisconsin is the very slowest, only six of the 25 teams rank in the top-100 in the country at offensive efficiency. On the other end, of the 25 fastest teams in the country in tempo, nine (9) of the teams rank in the top-100 in efficiency. So slower does not equal more efficient.

You say I had my mind made up before I found the evidence... it seems to me you are the one with your mind made up, as you're trying to downplay or completely ignore the evidence without understanding its' meaning or content. And no, I actually was already aware of the evidence because I follow college basketball very, very closely and watch a ton of it.

This Wisconsin team is very, very good. Their defense is not as good as a few teams they've had in the past, but they're an excellent team none the less (as I said, 7th overall in efficiency margin, though today they are up to 5th, behind Ohio State, Texas, Kansas, and Duke). Your original point about the two best players for Wisconsin identified them as "two of the very best in the nation." Your reply omitted the "very," but that was a very important modifier you used to help you make the point that I am underselling Wisconsin's team this year. I think that by a normal reading, it would not be unusual for one to translate that as "among top players in nation," which in college basketball language is 1st and 2nd team All-American, i.e. top 10 players.

Regarding your proof, the main problem is that you present those facts as that is supposed to be convincing evidence to support your contention. Your evidence may have been accurate, properly presented, but I was failing to see how that was supposed to overturn someone's anecdotal opinion. Throwing out "offensive efficiency ranking" is stat dropping, not proving a point. Thus, the conclusion that your mind must have been made up because you certainly didn't meet any burden of proof with the evidence you provided.

[Brutus]

Your original point about the two best players for Wisconsin identified them as "two of the very best in the nation." Your reply omitted the "very," but that was a very important modifier you used to help you make the point that I am underselling Wisconsin's team this year. I think that by a normal reading, it would not be unusual for one to translate that as "among top players in nation," which in college basketball language is 1st and 2nd team All-American, i.e. top 10 players.

Regarding your proof, the main problem is that you present those facts as that is supposed to be convincing evidence to support your contention. Your evidence may have been accurate, properly presented, but I was failing to see how that was supposed to overturn someone's anecdotal opinion. Throwing out "offensive efficiency ranking" is stat dropping, not proving a point. Thus, the conclusion that your mind must have been made up because you certainly didn't meet any burden of proof with the evidence you provided.

Efficiency is the very framework of winning basketball games. It encompasses everything that happens in a basketball game. So I don't see why that shouldn't meet the burden of proof. It just goes back to my main point: I think you have your mind made up and don't want to hear differently.

Efficiency is basically scoring margin, except that it adjusts for a different tempo and accounts for competition. For instance... winning a game by 12 points in a game of 80 possessions is not nearly as impressive as winning a game by 10 points in 60 possessions. Efficiency accounts for that. It also takes into account who you beat and when because the raw numbers are adjusted based on your opponent.

So if you're trying to suggest efficiency doesn't meet the burden of proof, then basically you're trying to eliminate any evidence that goes against your preconceived opinion, because it doesn't get much more of an overall descriptive stat than that.

[Unassisted]

Leuer was selected Big Ten Player of the Week. Sullinger was once again anointed Big Ten Freshman of the Week. Should be one of the best Big Ten games of the season.

[traderumor]

Efficiency is the very framework of winning basketball games. It encompasses everything that happens in a basketball game. So I don't see why that shouldn't meet the burden of proof. It just goes back to my main point: I think you have your mind made up and don't want to hear differently.

Efficiency is basically scoring margin, except that it adjusts for a different tempo and accounts for competition. For instance... winning a game by 12 points in a game of 80 possessions is not nearly as impressive as winning a game by 10 points in 60 possessions. Efficiency accounts for that. It also takes into account who you beat and when because the raw numbers are adjusted based on your opponent.

So if you're trying to suggest efficiency doesn't meet the burden of proof, then basically you're trying to eliminate any evidence that goes against your preconceived opinion, because it doesn't get much more of an overall descriptive stat than that.In other words, "my stat tells you all you need to know" is what you got? Ok, moving on.

[Brutus]

In other words, "my stat tells you all you need to know" is what you got? Ok, moving on.

Let me ask a question to answer an admittedly sarcastic one...

What better way can you think of to measure a team than that? You're doing a lot of griping about these stats and the numbers I've provided, as well as an explanation of something you admitted you don't know a ton about, but you're doing nothing to actually refute them or provide a better alternative.

So are you planning to bring any actual substance to the table or just try to knock this evidence down without a real basis?

[BuckeyeRed27]

I'm not even sure what you guys are arguing about. I think you both believe this should be a good game and Wisconsin is a good team, but disagree on the statistical proof of that?

[Brutus]

I'm not even sure what you guys are arguing about. I think you both believe this should be a good game and Wisconsin is a good team, but disagree on the statistical proof of that?

Not quite. He didn't think it was one of Wisconsin's better teams. I think it is, and provided the evidence for why I believe so.

[BuckeyeRed27]

Not quite. He didn't think it was one of Wisconsin's better teams. I think it is, and provided the evidence for why I believe so.

Got it. I'd agree with you in terms of this is more of a "team" than other Wisky teams. They play very well together and are very disciplined at home. They don't have the talent at the very top that they have had before though.

[Brutus]

Tom Izzo apparently agrees with my assessment (and statistical corroboration) of this Wisconsin team & Jordan Taylor...


Michigan State Head Coach Tom Izzo
Opening Statement:
“I haven’t seen a barrage of shots made like that since I’ve been in the league. We went in saying we have to be more coachable and play better defense. Until (Keith) Appling went out, I thought we were playing a little better, but Jordan Taylor was unbelievable today. That’s one of the great performances I’ve seen. He made nine shots and three 3s, and I thought every one of them was a tough shot. I know he’s really improved his game, but that was another level. He just dominated the game. There were contested shots that they made, there were falling down shots that they made, there were acrobatic shots. And of course the free throws, they don’t miss, but we knew that. They made some shots and that’s about the best thing I can say. Our defense wasn’t great but it just seemed like every guy took his turn. That was one of the better shooting performances out of a team that I’ve seen and they deserved to win.”

On his team's effort:
“Honest to God, the guys did everything I asked them to do. They were coachable in the huddles. We made some mistakes, but their shots were bouncing in. The Badger gods, hopefully they’re with the Packers today like they were with Wisconsin, because those shots kept going in. I thought our effort was 10 times what it was at Iowa, which means Wisconsin’s awfully good. Jordan Taylor, I think he played like one of the best guards in the country, not just the Big Ten today. His strength, his demeanor, I was very, very impressed.”

On Jordan Taylor’s candidacy for Big Ten Player of the Year:
“I think with (Jon) Leuer here, being the senior, maybe you don’t even hear as much about him on his own team. I don’t get to see him all the time, but if he wasn’t, today’s performance does it. We had our best defender, Appling, on him, and he did okay. But the types of shots, the way he played under control, he would be a guy I would talk about. And if he wasn’t, he should be. He should be in the conversation, because as good as Leuer is, and I like Leuer, when they say Taylor’s the straw the stirs the drink, he is the straw that stirs the drink. He definitely has made them a better team. I told him after the game, I think he’s improved as much as anyone I’ve seen. Strength really helped, and then he hit shots early and late.”

On making adjustments:
“My options are limited on what I can do. We’re going to find a way to win some games. I just really think you need to give Wisconsin the credit on their shooting today. If they shoot like that, they’ll win the National Championship. I really mean that, I thought they were that impressive shooting the ball. Everybody that shot it, it went in. (Tim) Jarmusz hit one early, (Keaton) Nankivil hit one that hit the front of the rim and then I think the Cheesehead gods put it in. If they keep doing that, they’re going to go a long way. They’ve got good depth, a guard who is playing as well as anyone that I’ve seen in the country. Some teams have played well against us, and none better than Wisconsin today.”

Wisconsin-Michigan State Postgame Quotes (http://www.uwbadgers.com/sports/m-baskbl/recaps/020611aaj.html)

[Captain Hook]

Tom Izzo apparently agrees with my assessment (and statistical corroboration) of this Wisconsin team & Jordan Taylor...



Wisconsin-Michigan State Postgame Quotes (http://www.uwbadgers.com/sports/m-baskbl/recaps/020611aaj.html)

I'm not going to take Izzo too seriously here.His teams are getting their butts kicked by just about everyone in the Big 10 right now and imo he just doesn't know what to say.Wisconsin is a fine team that played a good game Sat. They have a good shot to beat the Buckeyes this week and will be a tough out in the NCAA tournament but Izzo's comments are a bit over the top.

[Brutus]

I'm not going to take Izzo too seriously here.His teams are getting their butts kicked by just about everyone in the Big 10 right now and imo he just doesn't know what to say.Wisconsin is a fine team that played a good game Sat. They have a good shot to beat the Buckeyes this week and will be a tough out in the NCAA tournament but Izzo's comments are a bit over the top.

It's not just lip service though. He's saying what many Big Ten coaches believe. And since Wisconsin, again, is the most efficient team in America offensively right now, his comments seem to have a lot of merit.

[reds44]

Illinois will beat Ohio State in Columbus. Mark it down.

[Captain Hook]

It's not just lip service though. He's saying what many Big Ten coaches believe. And since Wisconsin, again, is the most efficient team in America offensively right now, his comments seem to have a lot of merit.

It seems like to me he's saying that Jordan Taylor is not only the best player in the Big 10, he's the best player in the country.It also seems like he's saying that Wisconsin should be considered one of the top National Championship contenders.But for some reason he does insinuate that the Badgers were about as lucky as they could be in the same breath.Lucky to beat his team?By more then 20 points?I don't see how he can honestly think they're as good as some of his comments suggest they are and then say they were lucky that they played good against his team.Izzo has a bunch of guys that needed to hear, there was nothing they could've done that would of changed the outcome of that game and that not only is Wisconsin one of the top teams in the country but they were lucky as well, after loosing consecutive games by more then 20 points.That's what they heard.

By the way, Mich. St. and Penn St. have beaten Wisconsin in the last month.The Badgers do have 5 losses. They are a very well coached team with some talent that can do some damage though.They're just not the world beaters that Izzo is making them out to be.

I am looking forward to this coming weekends game between Wisconsin and the Buckeyes.It should be a great one.

[Captain Hook]

Illinois will beat Ohio State in Columbus. Mark it down.

Sullinger went for 27 and 16 in Champaign.They'll have to do something about that.

[reds44]

Sullinger went for 27 and 16 in Champaign.They'll have to do something about that.
Sullinger can get his and Illinois can still win.

Sometimes the stars just align. Illinois will end OSU's perfect season the same place OSU ended theirs. If I'm wrong, I'll be more than happy to come in here and say it.

I'm confident I won't be wrong though.

[dabvu2498]

Tom Izzo apparently agrees with my assessment (and statistical corroboration) of this Wisconsin team & Jordan Taylor...



Wisconsin-Michigan State Postgame Quotes (http://www.uwbadgers.com/sports/m-baskbl/recaps/020611aaj.html)

To me, this is the most telling quote from Izzo:


If they shoot like that, they’ll win the National Championship.

No crap, Tom. They shot 59.0%, 64.7%, and 96.2% against your boys. Shoot like that, against anybody, anywhere, anytime and you win.

That's a big part of the reason Michigan State hasn't been worth a damn, but that's a thread in and of itself.

For the season, Wisconsin shoots 45.1%, 38.4%, and 82.8%. Except for the 82.8% FTs, not all that impressive.

It's their defense that wins games for them.

[Brutus]

Illinois will beat Ohio State in Columbus. Mark it down.

Anything is certainly possible, but that's awfully far out there to guarantee considering Illinois has lost their last four road games and has won just two of them all year.

[Oxblood]

Kid is a class act. Nice article.

http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/basketball/blog/the_dagger/post/A-sign-mocking-Jared-Sullinger-will-soon-hang-at?urn=ncaab-319144

[traderumor]

Tom Izzo apparently agrees with my assessment (and statistical corroboration) of this Wisconsin team & Jordan Taylor...



Wisconsin-Michigan State Postgame Quotes (http://www.uwbadgers.com/sports/m-baskbl/recaps/020611aaj.html)Which part of "cheesehead gods put it in" is in the efficiency calculation? I read a coach who is acknowledging a team that had one of those nights when everything goes in. It's a stretch to say that is corroboration for your claim. Quite frankly, I see self-promotion from a poster. Cool.

[Brutus]

Which part of "cheesehead gods put it in" is in the efficiency calculation? I read a coach who is acknowledging a team that had one of those nights when everything goes in. It's a stretch to say that is corroboration for your claim. Quite frankly, I see self-promotion from a poster. Cool.

He called Taylor one of the best players in the country and said Wisconsin had a chance to win it all. Your snark aside (please), how is that self-promotion rather than the corroborative opinion of someone who clearly knows a little something about the subject?

[traderumor]

He called Taylor one of the best players in the country and said Wisconsin had a chance to win it all. Your snark aside (please), how is that self-promotion rather than the corroborative opinion of someone who clearly knows a little something about the subject?Because he said "if they shoot like that," but the numbers someone else posted say "hot shooting night." Of course if a team shot like that every game they'd win it all. But it was pretty clearly hyperbole spoken by a losing coach that just saw his team lit up but thought his boys played well. Taking the "win it all" comment literally is not consistent with the context.

[Brutus]

Because he said "if they shoot like that," but the numbers someone else posted say "hot shooting night." Of course if a team shot like that every game they'd win it all. But it was pretty clearly hyperbole spoken by a losing coach that just saw his team lit up but thought his boys played well. Taking the "win it all" comment literally is not consistent with the context.

He also said if they continue playing like that, they'll go a long way. How is that hyperbole?

Any team can have a night like that. Doesn't mean they're capable of going a long way in the tournament or winning it all. Only a few teams, realistically, have that chance. To say they have a shot to win it all isn't hyperbole, it's an honest assessment of a team that is in that kind of group.

[traderumor]

He also said if they continue playing like that, they'll go a long way. How is that hyperbole?

Any team can have a night like that. Doesn't mean they're capable of going a long way in the tournament or winning it all. Only a few teams, realistically, have that chance. To say they have a shot to win it all isn't hyperbole, it's an honest assessment of a team that is in that kind of group.If you are not going to read it as hyperbole, then he is inconsistent. Which is it Tom, first you said they are going to win a National Championship, or are they just going a long way? I do think you protest too much to make this fit your argument. Why all the bother when your argument was such a slam dunk earlier in the thread (pun intended)?

[Brutus]

If you are not going to read it as hyperbole, then he is inconsistent. Which is it Tom, first you said they are going to win a National Championship, or are they just going a long way? I do think you protest too much to make this fit your argument. Why all the bother when your argument was such a slam dunk earlier in the thread (pun intended)?

Well, you won't listen to stats, you won't listen to coaches, what would you consider?

It seems you're just going to refuse to listen to anything that suggests differently.

[traderumor]

Well, you won't listen to stats, you won't listen to coaches, what would you consider?

It seems you're just going to refuse to listen to anything that suggests differently.I hear you. I disagree with your conclusion made from the evidence you presented. I think that horse is dead. We disagree, you didn't convince me. Does that make me a bad person?

I hear Tom Izzo. I have a different understanding of what he is saying, and I just don't think he is making a dogmatic statement of fact about who he thinks is going to win the NC. He was speaking in the context of how the opponent played against his team. I think you are twisting what he is saying to fit your conclusion about the type of team Wisconsin is.

Wisconsin could beat Ohio State by 20 points tomorrow. It still would not necessarily be convincing proof that they were now the front-runner for NC consideration. The neat thing about NCAA basketball is that there is this big giant thingy at the end of the season where teams play against each other to hash through all this and its last team standing. I guess we'll have to see if that turns out to be the team with the "most efficient offense in America."

[Brutus]

I hear you. I disagree with your conclusion made from the evidence you presented. I think that horse is dead. We disagree, you didn't convince me. Does that make me a bad person?

I hear Tom Izzo. I have a different understanding of what he is saying, and I just don't think he is making a dogmatic statement of fact about who he thinks is going to win the NC. He was speaking in the context of how the opponent played against his team. I think you are twisting what he is saying to fit your conclusion about the type of team Wisconsin is.

Wisconsin could beat Ohio State by 20 points tomorrow. It still would not necessarily be convincing proof that they were now the front-runner for NC consideration. The neat thing about NCAA basketball is that there is this big giant thingy at the end of the season where teams play against each other to hash through all this and its last team standing. I guess we'll have to see if that turns out to be the team with the "most efficient offense in America."

It doesn't make you a bad person, though perhaps a bit stubborn :P

In any event, I'll let it go. As you've said, you don't agree so that's that.

Last thing I'll say is that the tournament is not a good indicator of what should be considered the best team, most efficient team or anything else. So that probably is a poor way of whether to buy into whether or not Wisconsin is most efficient.

As of today though, they are the most efficient. That can't be disputed because they are in fact leading in efficiency. They score the most points relative to the number of possessions they have. That's not really a subjective statement.

[bucksfan2]

Re: Wisconsin in the NCAA tournament.

The difficult thing for a team like Wisconsin in the tournament is that you have to win 6 games in order two win the whole thing. A ball control offense and a lock em down defense are good things to have but when it comes tournament time what happens if you go cold? What happens if the team you are playing is hitting 3 after 3? There are too many variables that can crop up and bite you in the rear when it is one and done. Often times the team that wins or teams that advance far in the tournament can adapt to multiple styles of offense and defense. Teams that can win high scoring games as well as low scoring games.

[Brutus]

I imagine there are no doubters about Jordan Taylor now or Wisconsin's efficiency.

Ironically enough, Ohio State may have lost this game by not slowing the game down after Wisconsin started making a run. Too many rushed shots and not enough perimeter defense.

[bucksfan2]

I imagine there are no doubters about Jordan Taylor now or Wisconsin's efficiency.

Ironically enough, Ohio State may have lost this game by not slowing the game down after Wisconsin started making a run. Too many rushed shots and not enough perimeter defense.

OSU played a good game. Wiscy just went nuts from th three point line. At one point they burried 4 3's in a row and you could probably call one of them a quality shot. Games like today happen.

[Brutus]

OSU played a good game. Wiscy just went nuts from th three point line. At one point they burried 4 3's in a row and you could probably call one of them a quality shot. Games like today happen.

There were a few where you just tip your cap to them for making it. But Ohio State's perimeter defense was pretty poor down the stretch.

Too many times they completely left the ball. They were missing on switches. They were allowing a lot of dribble penetration & kick out. And Taylor was being guarded deep on the perimeter in the first half on those same shots he was given in the second half because Ohio State's defense simply wasn't getting out and taking it away.

So no question that Wisconsin did a terrific job hitting shots, but some of it was on Ohio State for not defending. And honestly, I feel strongly that it had to do with getting too relaxed with the lead and once Wisconsin got the momentum, it was almost as if Ohio State was too warn out to get it back.

[traderumor]

I imagine there are no doubters about Jordan Taylor now or Wisconsin's efficiency.

Ironically enough, Ohio State may have lost this game by not slowing the game down after Wisconsin started making a run. Too many rushed shots and not enough perimeter defense.Yet they've lost 5 games, 3 in the Big 10. How could that be for the mighty, 69 MPG in the city Badgers? I'd say it was a home court advantage win, one that was not necessarily predictable, but not a major surprise. Like I said earlier in the thread, before the game, when I'm not trying to "I told you so" anyone, that even a 20 point drubbing by the Badgers would prove nothing with respect to your "efficiency" stat, so apparently your imagination is running wild. Did you invest money in that or something?

What I'm trying to figure out is how you can use this one game as self-promotion for your theory, yet poo-poo the NCAA tournament format as deciding nothing?

[Brutus]

Yet they've lost 5 games, 3 in the Big 10. How could that be for the mighty, 69 MPG in the city Badgers? I'd say it was a home court advantage win, one that was not necessarily predictable, but not a major surprise. Like I said earlier in the thread, before the game, when I'm not trying to "I told you so" anyone, that even a 20 point drubbing by the Badgers would prove nothing with respect to your "efficiency" stat, so apparently your imagination is running wild. Did you invest money in that or something?

What I'm trying to figure out is how you can use this one game as self-promotion for your theory, yet poo-poo the NCAA tournament format as deciding nothing?

One game? They're the most efficient team over 24 games now. But you "poo-poo'd" that.

This is weird logic. I point out they were the most efficient offensive team in the country this season, something you dismiss out of hand without any regard to the measurement. Then when I point out comments by a head coach and then observations from the game in question to follow that game up (two games) both on empirical evidence, now you're trying to dismiss it as a sample issue.

You are going to great lengths here to ignore everything that suggests the initial comment was in fact legitimate.

This is Wisconsin's best offensive team under Bo Ryan. And statistically, it's by a wide margin.

(Adjusted for competition, i.e. defensive points allowed per possession by opponents)

2011: 1.23 points scored per possession (PPP)
2010: 1.16 PPP
2009: 1.13 PPP
2008: 1.16 PPP
2007: 1.17 PPP
2006: 1.11 PPP
2005: 1.14 PPP
2004: 1.18 PPP
2003: 1.14 PPP

If you want to verify the numbers for yourself, please feel free to do so: KenPom.com Wisconsin Profile (http://kenpom.com/team.php?team=Wisconsin)

The difference between this year and the second best Bo Ryan team is over 3.5 points a game in a game of normal number of possessions. The difference between this season and an average Bo Ryan offense is over 6 points per game in normal number of possessions.

This team is by far his best offensive team. Statistically, empirically, visually, or however else you want to define it.

[traderumor]

One game? They're the most efficient team over 24 games now. But you "poo-poo'd" that.

This is weird logic. I point out they were the most efficient offensive team in the country this season, something you dismiss out of hand without any regard to the measurement. Then when I point out comments by a head coach and then observations from the game in question to follow that game up (two games) both on empirical evidence, now you're trying to dismiss it as a sample issue.

You are going to great lengths here to ignore everything that suggests the initial comment was in fact legitimate.

This is Wisconsin's best offensive team under Bo Ryan. And statistically, it's by a wide margin.

(Adjusted for competition, i.e. defensive points allowed per possession by opponents)

2011: 1.23 points scored per possession (PPP)
2010: 1.16 PPP
2009: 1.13 PPP
2008: 1.16 PPP
2007: 1.17 PPP
2006: 1.11 PPP
2005: 1.14 PPP
2004: 1.18 PPP
2003: 1.14 PPP

If you want to verify the numbers for yourself, please feel free to do so: KenPom.com Wisconsin Profile (http://kenpom.com/team.php?team=Wisconsin)

The difference between this year and the second best Bo Ryan team is over 3.5 points a game in a game of normal number of possessions. The difference between this season and an average Bo Ryan offense is over 6 points per game in normal number of possessions.

This team is by far his best offensive team. Statistically, empirically, visually, or however else you want to define it.You asked folks to validate your measurement because Wisconsin beat Ohio State yesterday. That is, by definition, pointing to one game, looking at the result, and claiming vindication. On the other hand, on floor matchups that occur in the NCAA tournament to decide a championship is inferior to declaring "best" teams by statistical measurements, according to statements made by you earlier in the conversation. It gets curiouser and curiouser, indeed, right back atcha.

[Brutus]

You asked folks to validate your measurement because Wisconsin beat Ohio State yesterday. That is, by definition, pointing to one game, looking at the result, and claiming vindication. On the other hand, on floor matchups that occur in the NCAA tournament to decide a championship is inferior to declaring "best" teams by statistical measurements, according to statements made by you earlier in the conversation. It gets curiouser and curiouser, indeed, right back atcha.

This all started because of a (faulty) comment that you said this was one of Bo Ryan's weaker teams. Clearly it isn't.

If you're now judging a team based on tournament success (which is silly considering a season is 35 games long in some cases, and a tournament lasts 1-6 games), then none of Bo Ryan's teams were very strong.

So if we go back to what started all this "it's one of Bo Ryan's weaker teams"...no actually it's not. The numbers and measurements back that up.

At this point, you're really grasping at straws. You have provided nothing in this entire thread to support your point. Nothing! All you can do is attempt to shoot down every stat, quote and observation with rhetoric because you have brought nothing to actually corroborate your observation.

[traderumor]

This all started because of a (faulty) comment that you said this was one of Bo Ryan's weaker teams. Clearly it isn't.

If you're now judging a team based on tournament success (which is silly considering a season is 35 games long in some cases, and a tournament lasts 1-6 games), then none of Bo Ryan's teams were very strong.

So if we go back to what started all this "it's one of Bo Ryan's weaker teams"...no actually it's not. The numbers and measurements back that up.

At this point, you're really grasping at straws. You have provided nothing in this entire thread to support your point. Nothing! All you can do is attempt to shoot down every stat, quote and observation with rhetoric because you have brought nothing to actually corroborate your observation.

"No, its actually not," according to what you are using to measure "best," which is the crux of the argument. The nature of a discussion is to rebut the points of another in the discussion if there is still not common ground. Just because you presented what you see as support for your position doesn't mean it isn't open to scrutiny. I shot them down because they were targets. Your response? "You are stubborn because you do not accept what I say." How about we end it at that since it is clear we have divergent views and both think that we have valid reasons for our belief instead of disrespecting each other's point of view?

[Brutus]

"No, its actually not," according to what you are using to measure "best," which is the crux of the argument. The nature of a discussion is to rebut the points of another in the discussion if there is still not common ground. Just because you presented what you see as support for your position doesn't mean it isn't open to scrutiny. I shot them down because they were targets. Your response? "You are stubborn because you do not accept what I say." How about we end it at that since it is clear we have divergent views and both think that we have valid reasons for our belief instead of disrespecting each other's point of view?

A discussion is not just about rebutting the opposing viewpoints, but presenting some kind of rationale as to your own viewpoint. You've done the rebutting, but offered nothing of substance in return. Everything, every type of evidence I've offered (while statistical, empirical or simply subjective) has been torn down on subjective grounds that essentially amounts to you just not liking it.

But I'm still simply waiting for any kind of counterpoint that dismisses the initial opinion. You've done nothing to back up your own points. That's fine if that's the route you want to go, but you don't have any ground to stand on tearing down all of the reasons I've offered up.

I'm honestly curious... how do you measure a team? It seems there are no ways to judge how good a team is since stats don't work, coaches' opinions don't work and recent, tangible results don't work.

So just out of curiosity, what valid reasons are there?

By the way, are you familiar with the Pythagorean theorem... the one often used in Sabermetrics? I'm sure you've probably seen it used often on the ORG since you've been around a while. It estimates, fairly reasonably, a team's W-L record based on runs scored & runs allowed.

Well, basketball works fairly well with that too, based on offensive and defensive efficiency. It's slightly different than baseball because there are fewer games and more fluctuation with the numbers. But an estimated win % (against an average team) can be established using the exact same formula but instead substituting a team's offensive and defensive efficiency numbers for runs and runs scored.

Using that method, this is actually Bo Ryan's third-best team he's had at Wisconsin in 10 years. It's the best offensive team he's had, though defensively it's middle of the pack. But regardless, it is, in pretty much any measure, one of his better teams. I'm sure he'd probably tell you that and I'm sure some of the opposing coaches would tell you that (I know a few of them, so it's not supposition).

[bucksfan2]

There were a few where you just tip your cap to them for making it. But Ohio State's perimeter defense was pretty poor down the stretch.

Too many times they completely left the ball. They were missing on switches. They were allowing a lot of dribble penetration & kick out. And Taylor was being guarded deep on the perimeter in the first half on those same shots he was given in the second half because Ohio State's defense simply wasn't getting out and taking it away.

So no question that Wisconsin did a terrific job hitting shots, but some of it was on Ohio State for not defending. And honestly, I feel strongly that it had to do with getting too relaxed with the lead and once Wisconsin got the momentum, it was almost as if Ohio State was too warn out to get it back.

The stretch I am talking about happened when OSU had a 5 or so point lead. Wisconsin went down and hit 4 straight 3's. 12 points in 4 possessions is a tough thing to deal with. IIRC two of them were late in the shot clock three's that weren't exactly the best shots.

Wisconsin is a tough team to beat when they shoot like that. They are almost impossible to beat when they shot like that at home. Even Dicky V made a comment that you look awfully good when you are making shots. Thats what I take out of that game. Wisconsin got incredibly hot from the 3 point line and it was the difference in the game.

[BuckeyeRed27]

The stretch I am talking about happened when OSU had a 5 or so point lead. Wisconsin went down and hit 4 straight 3's. 12 points in 4 possessions is a tough thing to deal with. IIRC two of them were late in the shot clock three's that weren't exactly the best shots.

Wisconsin is a tough team to beat when they shoot like that. They are almost impossible to beat when they shot like that at home. Even Dicky V made a comment that you look awfully good when you are making shots. Thats what I take out of that game. Wisconsin got incredibly hot from the 3 point line and it was the difference in the game.

The most frustrating part about that stretch is that Wisconsin only had two good looks but made five or six shots while OSU had three very good looks like that just didn't go in. But that's basketball. I wasn't unhappy with the game really. If Wisconsin has to get that hot to beat us by 3 at home I'm pretty sure we'll be ok.

[traderumor]

The Buckeyes overcome another hot shooting night to outlast the Spartans. Outlast is a great description having watched the game from tipoff to final buzzer. MSU shot over 60% for most of the game, not sure where they ended up after missing a few in the last 3-4 minutes, but were barely hitting the rim with shots and getting away with moving screens to set up some easy buckets in the 1st half. It was criminal the number of moving screens that were not being called, I think they called about 1 of 6 that I saw in the 1st half. That kind of non-call is really tough on a team playing man to man.

Matta or his defense assistant made a nice defensive adjustment in the second half on the high/low after Sullinger got burned for the umpteenth time in the game and started rotating the baseline defender to the backside of the post and took it completely away for the last 15 minutes. That also coincides with when the Bucks started to take control of the game, slowly but surely. A really entertaining ballgame.

Just for free, Tom Izzo looks burnt out. Maybe its just the weight of a tough year, but he looks worn out.

A big game in the Big 10 race tonight, Badgers @ Purdue. Loser is probably done for the regular season crown. Hope to catch some of it.

[Hoosier Red]

Just for free, Tom Izzo looks burnt out. Maybe its just the weight of a tough year, but he looks worn out.



I never bought the Izzo to Cleveland Cavaliers stuff, but I've always wondered about guys who dip their toe in the water, but then try to come back to the "smaller" job. There's a certain line that you can't cross and then go back to what you were doing.

Dramatic examples include Dana Altman leaving Creighton(for a day) to go to Arkansas, Dan Dakich leaving Bowling Green for West Virginia before seeing what an awful state it was in and heading back.
I don't know what the rubicon is, but perhaps Izzo actually crossed it and once he had gone that far, actually should have gone to the NBA?

[RiverRat13]

I never bought the Izzo to Cleveland Cavaliers stuff, but I've always wondered about guys who dip their toe in the water, but then try to come back to the "smaller" job. There's a certain line that you can't cross and then go back to what you were doing.

Dramatic examples include Dana Altman leaving Creighton(for a day) to go to Arkansas, Dan Dakich leaving Bowling Green for West Virginia before seeing what an awful state it was in and heading back.
I don't know what the rubicon is, but perhaps Izzo actually crossed it and once he had gone that far, actually should have gone to the NBA?

There are other examples that go against this. Coach K has had at least two public flirtations with the NBA. First with the Nets back in the '90s, and then the Lakers in '04. He took about a week to decide about the Lakers job. And Roy Williams took about a week before ultimately deciding to turn down UNC and return to Kansas in '00.

[Hoosier Red]

Those are good points RiverRat, though it should be noted both Kansas and Duke had pretty average seasons by their high standards in the season that followed; Duke went 27-6 and lost in the Sweet 16 in the 04-05 season while Kansas went 26-7 and lost in the first round(again) 2000-2001 season. Not falling off the cliff bad, but not really overacheiving.

Overall though I think you're right that there are as many coaches who went back and did well as not. But my point was that there's a line, and it's different for every coach, but once they cross that line there is no going back without wondering, "what if", and all the while you lose some support at home because everyone knows you are capable of leaving. And its just a spiral downward.

[bucksfan2]

Add in Billy Donovan into the mix of coaches who were unable to regain their level of excellence after their flirtation with a NBA or more higher paying job.

FWIW Tom Izzo coached his tail of last night. If MSU plays like that the rest of the season they win out. There are only a few teams who can beat MSU when they play like that, one of them being OSU at home. If that were at MSU it may have been a different story. What is even more impressive is Summers was 0-1 and sat Yancy Gates style on the bench for most of the game.

[Buckeye33]

FWIW Tom Izzo coached his tail of last night. If MSU plays like that the rest of the season they win out. There are only a few teams who can beat MSU when they play like that, one of them being OSU at home. If that were at MSU it may have been a different story. What is even more impressive is Summers was 0-1 and sat Yancy Gates style on the bench for most of the game.

Summers has quit on his team just like Lucious I guess did as well. He was one of the guys who did not hustle after the errant pass that Craft tracked down and got a 3 point play on. Summers was benched instantly after that play.

MSU played a very good game and it goes to show that it takes a near perfect game to beat the Buckeyes this year, especially at home. The Badgers pulled that near perfect game out in Madison and that included a perfect 12 minutes of the 2nd half.

I still hate that Matta refuses to play Thomas and Lauderdale enough minutes. This team will have a hard time winning 6 game in a row in the tournament only playing 5 guys.

[Redsfaithful]

I was expecting Lauderdale to take a step forward this year, but that hasn't really happened. Not sure what's going on there.

[bucksfan2]

I was expecting Lauderdale to take a step forward this year, but that hasn't really happened. Not sure what's going on there.

Sullinger and limited minutes. Who is he going to play over? They have basically play 4 guards and 1 big man because of the height of their guards. They have a 5 guard rotation, 2 big man rotation, and one Thomas rotation.

[BuckeyeRed27]

Illinois will beat Ohio State in Columbus. Mark it down.

Good call BTW

[Brutus]

Good call BTW

At least he was close :D

[Razor Shines]

I gotta say I love shooters. JJ Redick is my all time favorite college player but I got nearly as much enjoyment out of watching Diebler go off last night as I've had watching anybody shoot. That was almost as fun as watching Steph Curry make that run with Davidson.

[BuckeyeRed27]

I gotta say I love shooters. JJ Redick is my all time favorite college player but I got nearly as much enjoyment out of watching Diebler go off last night as I've had watching anybody shoot. That was almost as fun as watching Steph Curry make that run with Davidson.

Did he make 8 or 9 in a row? Just crazy.

[Brutus]

Did he make 8 or 9 in a row? Just crazy.

Yep, ended up being 9 in a row. He made his first, missed his second, then made the next 9 before missing his last.

Incredible.

But what I thought was even more amazing is that he was making shots all over. It wasn't just one sweet spot or one type of shot. He came around curl screens, flare screens, staggered baseline screens, set up on the break, went around a ball screen, had a few step backs, shot fakes then a 3-pointer... he was doing it in all sorts of ways.

[bucksfan2]

Yep, ended up being 9 in a row. He made his first, missed his second, then made the next 9 before missing his last.

Incredible.

But what I thought was even more amazing is that he was making shots all over. It wasn't just one sweet spot or one type of shot. He came around curl screens, flare screens, staggered baseline screens, set up on the break, went around a ball screen, had a few step backs, shot fakes then a 3-pointer... he was doing it in all sorts of ways.

Diebler has made huge strides from his first couple of years at OSU. He is able to put the ball on the deck better and get to the lane. He has expanded his 3 point shooting a little more from just a catch and shoot guy. He had one move where he gave a quick dribble drive to create separation only to pop back and nail a 3.

I won't criticize Thad much but last night would have been a nice time to empty the bench early. It would have been nice to see Thomas give Diebler about 10 game minutes off. It would have also been nice to see Sibert in the game early to give Bufford and Craft some rest. In a game that was in hand early it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me to see Diebler, Bufford, and Sullinger all log more than 32 minutes.

[BuckeyeRed27]

I'm glad the team has rebounded nicely from a couple of tough losses. They really only played bad against Purdue, but still nice to see that they have come back focused.

I also love the balance they have shown in the past 7 or 8 games. For a while it was really turning into the Sullinger show and while he has played very well the other guys have really stepped up. Last night it was Diebs, game before it was Thomas. Lightly really took over against MSU and Buford has been very steady. I think this is what makes the team probably the most dangerous team in the tournament. Unless they have a Purdue game where Sullinger can't get it going and everyone else is off they are really hard to beat.

[Buckeye33]

Yep, ended up being 9 in a row. He made his first, missed his second, then made the next 9 before missing his last.

Incredible.

But what I thought was even more amazing is that he was making shots all over. It wasn't just one sweet spot or one type of shot. He came around curl screens, flare screens, staggered baseline screens, set up on the break, went around a ball screen, had a few step backs, shot fakes then a 3-pointer... he was doing it in all sorts of ways.

He made 10 in a row. He missed his very first attempt, made 10 in a row (5 in each half) and then missed his last one. It was fun to watch all his teammates on the bench and eventually some of those on the floor with him start reacting when he started to take a 3.

Saw a stat today that PSU made 11 of their first 14 shots in the 2nd half and the went from being down 15 to being down 25. That is impressive.

I can not wait for the Wisky game this Sunday, the Schott is going to be insane. I've been trying to snag some tickets but it is currently about $125 just to get in the building.

[BRM]

JJ Redick is my all time favorite college player

Interesting, he's WMR's all-time favorite as well.

[Brutus]

He made 10 in a row. He missed his very first attempt, made 10 in a row (5 in each half) and then missed his last one. It was fun to watch all his teammates on the bench and eventually some of those on the floor with him start reacting when he started to take a 3.


I thought that too originally, but it turns out that wasn't the case.

Here is the play-by-play account: OSU-PSU play-by-play (http://scores.espn.go.com/ncb/playbyplay?gameId=310600213)

As you will see, he made his first attempt at 17:02 and then missed one at 14:57.

He then made the next nine before missing the last one.

I thought it was 10 in a row too until I checked it last night.

[Razor Shines]

Yep, ended up being 9 in a row. He made his first, missed his second, then made the next 9 before missing his last.

Incredible.

But what I thought was even more amazing is that he was making shots all over. It wasn't just one sweet spot or one type of shot. He came around curl screens, flare screens, staggered baseline screens, set up on the break, went around a ball screen, had a few step backs, shot fakes then a 3-pointer... he was doing it in all sorts of ways.

Yeah it was incredible. It was just one of those nights where you get that feeling and you know if you can just get the shot up it's probably going in, no matter where on the court.

[Razor Shines]

Interesting, he's WMR's all-time favorite as well.

True. I will say that I don't like him nearly as much as WMR but few do.

[traderumor]

Diebler's three's overshadowed Buford's silky shooting. He reminds me of George Gervin with those soft shots that just feather in the net, rarely touching rim. The funnest part of the season recently has been watching Buford work on his D and really focus on getting better, even though he honestly will probably never be a good defender.

Low point for any fan base was cheering very loudly when Sullinger got his arm hammered so hard it shook and appeared to be injured (no foul, of course, all ball :rolleyes:). Or was it the sign the co-ed held up asking if Sullinger was on the see food diet? Both were equally pitiful.

[PickOff]

Gotta love this team if you are an OSU hoops fan. It is definitely the best OSU team that I've seen in my lifetime. No doubt in my mind. The feeling I have about the this team reminds me of how I felt about the 1992 Bearcats. I didn't think the Bearcats could get past Michigan so only had them in the final four, but I can tell you right now it is OSU all the way this year. They may not win it all, but I think they have the best chance. A supurbly balanced team.

[Buckeye33]

Gotta love this team if you are an OSU hoops fan. It is definitely the best OSU team that I've seen in my lifetime. No doubt in my mind. The feeling I have about the this team reminds me of how I felt about the 1992 Bearcats. I didn't think the Bearcats could get past Michigan so only had them in the final four, but I can tell you right now it is OSU all the way this year. They may not win it all, but I think they have the best chance. A supurbly balanced team.

I've been debating which team was/is better, '07 championship game team or this years team. I'm still leaning towards the '07 team because they had depth that would really give this years team big problems.

Look at this roster:

Mike Conley Jr
Jamar Butler
Ron Lewis
Ivan Harris
Greg Oden

Bench:

Daquan Cook
Othello Hunter
David Lighty
Matt Terwillinger

That team was 8 deep and had 9 guys who could give quality minutes if you count Terwillinger. This years team would simply not be able to keep up with this team for 40 minutes I do not think.

[Brutus]

I've been debating which team was/is better, '07 championship game team or this years team. I'm still leaning towards the '07 team because they had depth that would really give this years team big problems.

Look at this roster:

Mike Conley Jr
Jamar Butler
Ron Lewis
Ivan Harris
Greg Oden

Bench:

Daquan Cook
Othello Hunter
David Lighty
Matt Terwillinger

That team was 8 deep and had 9 guys who could give quality minutes if you count Terwillinger. This years team would simply not be able to keep up with this team for 40 minutes I do not think.

FWIW, statistically, in terms of adjusted efficiency margin, this team is pretty much identical to that team. Personally, while I think it's unquestioned that team was more talented (and deeper), I think this team might be a better team. That team relied heavily on Conley breaking down defenders and playing two-man basketball with he and Oden. I think this team has more of a cohesive flow to it and I believe this is the best Ohio State team I've seen.

[BuckeyeRed27]

FWIW, statistically, in terms of adjusted efficiency margin, this team is pretty much identical to that team. Personally, while I think it's unquestioned that team was more talented (and deeper), I think this team might be a better team. That team relied heavily on Conley breaking down defenders and playing two-man basketball with he and Oden. I think this team has more of a cohesive flow to it and I believe this is the best Ohio State team I've seen.

I think the biggest difference between the 07 team and this time is that there isn't another team in the country that has Horford, Noah, Brewer and Speights in their starting line up :)

Kidding aside I think they are pretty similiar teams, but maybe give a slight nod to the 07 team since Conley at this point is a better PG than Craft is.

[Danny Serafini]

I have to say I like this year's team better than the '07 team. '07 was deeper on the bench, but this year's team seems more versatile. They can either abuse you inside with Sullinger or torch you outside with 3 point shooting, but either way something should be beating you. As was mentioned above, this year's team effort seems better, and barring a clunker in the Big 10 tournament, they should go in as the favorite to win it all.

[Buckeye33]

14/15 on 3s as a team today. This was an epic beatdown.

[Scrap Irony]

OSU is one of the two best teams in CBB this year and it's not particularly close. (KU being the other.)

[Reds Fanatic]

14/15 on 3s as a team today. This was an epic beatdown.

Diebler is on fire. 17 3s made in the last 2 games.

[traderumor]

I hope the hot shooting continues through March Madness. Obviously, they have been making everything in the last two games, so it wouldn't be realistic for them to continue to shoot the ball this well, but hitting half their 3s makes them pretty tough to beat with the inside/out threats they have.

[Captain Hook]

A few weeks ago, Wisconsin got insanely hot and were able to overcome a big second half deficit to come from behind and beat the Buckeyes by 3 on their home court.There was a time during that game that I felt like the OSU players looked like they had the game wrapped up.At one point it seemed like a few of the Buckeyes were almost, if not flat out, laughing at Wisconsin only to have the Badgers get hot and come back to win the game.I'm sure the Wisconsin players and coach were very happy following the big win considering they probably saw what I did from the OSU players after their team jumped out to the big lead.Good for them.

After what had to be a very disappointing first loss of the year for the Buckeyes, Jared Sullinger was spit on by a Wisconsin fan.As bad as that was Sullinger along with the rest of his teammates had to hear the Badgers head coach tell the media that he didn't see it and that they won the game and that the OSU player should get over it.What a joke!!!!Even so,Jared,the Buckeyes and their coach got over it.At least publicly.

So I guess the Bucks had something to prove and a little payback in mind today when they welcomed Wisconsin to Columbus for both teams regular season finali.Ohio State set a NCAA single game record for 3 point percentage with a minimum 10 attempts.They put up 93 points against Wisconsin who before today hadn't given up more then 70 to anyone all year long.The 23 point loss was by far the Badgers largest margin of defeat all year as well.They have pretty much been in every game this year with their next biggest loss being only 8 to Illinois.It was a complete beat down.

Now I don't normally say or even think that college guys or anyone deserves a beat down but Wisconsin deserved it today.They deserved it just so they could see what can happen when a coach or anyone with a little power that has a mic in front of them acts like a jerk.I have no doubt that coach Bo's comments was the driving motivation that fueled one of the better if not the best regular season performances by a single team in a game all year long.

By the way.I'm really starting to not like Wisconsin and I've noticed this in a few other Buckeye fans as well.

[BuckeyeRed27]

The shooting yesterday was crazy. Most people didn't even see the missed three because it happened before the game switched over from the game before.

I really hope they can keep up the focus and high level of play for a few more weeks. This team is a lot of fun to watch.

[cincrazy]

Best team in the country. Doesn't mean they'll win it all, crazy things can happen in the NCAA Tournament, but they're the best team in the country.

Notre Dame and their shooters scare me, as does Kansas and the Morris twins. But still, this is the best OSU team of my 25 years. Whatever happens the rest of the way, it's been a great season, and a heck of a distraction until baseball starts.

[BuckeyeRed27]

Well it was a "titanic struggle" but OSU was able to outlast Northwestern in OT to win the first game of the BTT and pick up win #30. Will play the winner of Michigan/Illinois tomorrow.

[HeatherC1212]

Its always a fun day when the Buckeyes beat Michigan. :p:

Buckeyes vs. Penn State tomorrow. :)

[Redsfaithful]

Anyone else think that's a fairly tough draw for an overall #1? Or maybe I'm overrating Kentucky and UNC.

[Cedric]

Anyone else think that's a fairly tough draw for an overall #1? Or maybe I'm overrating Kentucky and UNC.

George Mason is a very good team also. I really think that game could be close if they beat 'Nova.

[Hoosier Red]

Anyone else think that's a fairly tough draw for an overall #1? Or maybe I'm overrating Kentucky and UNC.

Yes. The Pitt quadrant is really confusing. Florida is a fine team, but I would have questioned giving them a 2. BYU is the weakest 3 and Wisconsin is the weakest 4. If I were tOSU, I'd trade places with Pitt any day of the week.

[BuckeyeRed27]

Anyone else think that's a fairly tough draw for an overall #1? Or maybe I'm overrating Kentucky and UNC.

I don't think OSU got the easiest draw, but they don't have the hardest one either. I think it's pretty fair except for the possiblity of playing Syracuse in Newark.

[bucksfan2]

I don't like the draw. I don't like the prospects of having to play Vilanova and UK to advance to the elite 8. That said you need to win the games in front of you.

[traderumor]

Yes. The Pitt quadrant is really confusing. Florida is a fine team, but I would have questioned giving them a 2. BYU is the weakest 3 and Wisconsin is the weakest 4. If I were tOSU, I'd trade places with Pitt any day of the week.
This is what I saw as well. In the end, it doesn't matter. You are going to face the best of the best to win the NC at some point. One off game and about anyone can send you home early.

[Hoosier Red]

This is what I saw as well. In the end, it doesn't matter. You are going to face the best of the best to win the NC at some point. One off game and about anyone can send you home early.

That's true. And the bracket which is dubbed the easiest no doubt has the 4 seed beat everyone, and the #2 seed who has everyone quaking in their boots loses in the 2nd round.

[WVRed]

I don't think OSU got the easiest draw, but they don't have the hardest one either. I think it's pretty fair except for the possiblity of playing Syracuse in Newark.

As much as everybody is complaining about Kentucky's draw with Ohio State (I'm looking less forward to playing WVU again), I think Ohio State got it worse completely.

Second round: Likely Villanova, who at one point before the Big East Tournament was considered a 4 seed.

Sweet Sixteen: Probably Kentucky. Should have been a three seed but is probably the hottest team right now hitting the tournament. If UK is somehow able to handle Sullinger inside, it will become a three point shooting contest. If WVU manages to beat Kentucky, I don't see any way the Mountaineers keep up with Ohio State.

Elite Eight: UNC or Syracuse. My money is on Syracuse, because UNC is about a year ahead of schedule and Syracuse will have a considerable home court advantage. Ohio State and Kentucky both have the shooters to beat the zone so it would be a tossup.

[Brutus]

In terms of ratings and intrigue, a Newark regional of Ohio State-Kentucky and Syracuse-North Carolina would be absolutely exceptional. Good luck to anyone wanting to purchase a ticket to that session.

I actually don't think the draw was terribly unfair. Kentucky was ranked No. 15 in the poll prior to the selection, and it can be argued that the SEC tournament shouldn't have changed much about that. Second, to the extent you could argue they're a tough draw, with all the bracket rules in place, Ohio State's region was put together largely out of necessity than penalizing them.

Either way, I love the match-ups in this year's tournament. Ohio Stat sure didn't get Pitt's region, but these games are going to be tough regardless, so just play the team in front of you and see how it goes.

[Unassisted]

Someone on Twitter made this observation today: "The 4 winningest programs in history are UK KU UNC and Duke. (Ohio State) may have to beat all 4 to win National Title. "

[WVRed]

Just wanted to pop in and congratulate you guys on a great game. :) You guys had a great season that I really wish would have ended a lot later than the Sweet Sixteen. This is kinda how we felt last year when we got WVU in our bracket in the Elite Eight.

[BuckeyeRed27]

I'm just sad right now. We had the best team and couldn't close the deal. One of the worst two or three sports losses of my life.

[Cedric]

I'm just sad right now. We had the best team and couldn't close the deal. One of the worst two or three sports losses of my life.

Worst game I have ever seen Buford have. Ohio State losing by only two was a mini miracle with the way Buford played and Matta coached.

I thought before this tournament that Kansas or North Carolina would end the Buckeyes season. I had no idea that Buford would stink up the joint so bad with lazy/wild shots off screens.

[Cedric]

And I want to take this time to whine about how absurd the TOSU draw was in this bracket. That was said before the tournament and it rings even further true after watching Kansas beat Richmond and VCU probably for a final four berth.

I feel like luck never sides with the teams I root for :)

[Johnny Footstool]

I'm just sad right now. We had the best team and couldn't close the deal. One of the worst two or three sports losses of my life.

Rhode Island
UTEP
Bucknell
Bradley
UNI

tOSU lost to a quality team, not a flash-in-the-pan like the above teams.

Don't feel so bad.

[George Foster]

And I want to take this time to whine about how absurd the TOSU draw was in this bracket. That was said before the tournament and it rings even further true after watching Kansas beat Richmond and VCU probably for a final four berth.

I feel like luck never sides with the teams I root for :)

True that. Kentucky could say the same thing. We were the fouth 4th seed?? really? We beat Florida twice in 10 days, and they are a #2? Now we have to beat Carolina in 44 hours. The only team the East bracket does not have is the Boston celtics.

[cincyinco]

The coaching tonight wasn't great but come on.. the buckeyes were throwing up bricks all night.. just gave the game away..

[traderumor]

Very simple conclusion: Kentucky matched up well enough to play Ohio State straight up defensively and made just enough shots to win. It had nothing to do with coaching, it was man to man D, run your offense and may the best team win. The Buckeyes were shooting bricks because their shots were contested all night when they were not being blocked. Just an incredible defensive performance by Kentucky.

It is a heartbreaking loss when you think your team has what it takes to at least make Final Four, but Kentucky deserved to win that game. For the Buckeyes, they did not play bad, it was that age old tourney phenomenon known as the bad matchup. They were not making bad passes, or turning the ball over, or missing open shots, they simply were not getting consistenly good looks at the basket because Kentucky was able to guard the perimeter and the big ape, Harrison, had the game of his life.

However, I think North Carolina will breeze against Kentucky and will meet Kansas in the finals.

[WVRed]

Very simple conclusion: Kentucky matched up well enough to play Ohio State straight up defensively and made just enough shots to win. It had nothing to do with coaching, it was man to man D, run your offense and may the best team win. The Buckeyes were shooting bricks because their shots were contested all night when they were not being blocked. Just an incredible defensive performance by Kentucky.

It is a heartbreaking loss when you think your team has what it takes to at least make Final Four, but Kentucky deserved to win that game. For the Buckeyes, they did not play bad, it was that age old tourney phenomenon known as the bad matchup. They were not making bad passes, or turning the ball over, or missing open shots, they simply were not getting consistenly good looks at the basket because Kentucky was able to guard the perimeter and the big ape, Harrison, had the game of his life.

However, I think North Carolina will breeze against Kentucky and will meet Kansas in the finals.

Couldn't have put it better myself. If I was in Matta's shoes, I would have taken advantage of the matchup of Harrellson vs Sullinger. Kentucky had the length and locked down on Ohio State's top shooters and limited how many times Diebler shot.

As for UNC, we lost to them by 2 earlier this season in the Dean Dome. Harrellson wasn't half the player he is now but he is going to be running up against Zeller and Henson. Terrence Jones has regressed significantly since that game and Harrison Barnes, who struggled in that game, has turned it on recently. All of it favors UNC and I think they win, but this UK team has definitely exceeded my expectations for this year.

[texasdave]

Ohio State star freshman Jared Sullinger says he will return to the Buckeyes next season rather than enter the NBA draft.Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/basketball/ncaa/mens-tournament/2011/03/26/sullinger.ohiostate.ap/index.html#ixzz1HigNBDn3

[Roy Tucker]

I thought UK played killer defense and that was the difference. The Buckeye shots were hotly contested and that threw off their usual sterling accuracy.

It was a great game. I'm just sorry OSU lost after such a great season. But hat's off to Kentucky. They deserved the W.

[traderumor]

I do not follow the NBA game, but what I do know about it, I'm a bit puzzled by all the NBA talk for Sullinger. I am glad he is a Buckeye, I know he is light on his feet for a big man, but he is only 6-9 and limited to post.

I was thinking about this yesterday, and I am glad that he is coming back, because I think he does have the opportunity to become a better professional by doing so. He just seems too slow and not real good defensively to be a force in the NBA immediately after just one year in college, would probably sit at the end of the bench and see his development stunted, or start for a really bad team.

Of course, the NBA is a basketball wasteland and really not watchable, so I'm glad I get to watch him play real basketball for at least another year. :cool:

[WMR]

Very simple conclusion: Kentucky matched up well enough to play Ohio State straight up defensively and made just enough shots to win. It had nothing to do with coaching, it was man to man D, run your offense and may the best team win. The Buckeyes were shooting bricks because their shots were contested all night when they were not being blocked. Just an incredible defensive performance by Kentucky.

It is a heartbreaking loss when you think your team has what it takes to at least make Final Four, but Kentucky deserved to win that game. For the Buckeyes, they did not play bad, it was that age old tourney phenomenon known as the bad matchup. They were not making bad passes, or turning the ball over, or missing open shots, they simply were not getting consistenly good looks at the basket because Kentucky was able to guard the perimeter and the big ape, Harrison, had the game of his life.

However, I think North Carolina will breeze against Kentucky and will meet Kansas in the finals.

You must mean Josh Harrellson. Nah, he actually had a better game earlier in the year when we beat Louisville.

[Jack Burton]

Joke of a game. Kentucky played as well as they possibly could and OSU played almost as bad as they have all year. Hence the result. Buford was terrible.

Plus, they should eliminate the charge call in basketball. It makes the sport too effeminate.

[traderumor]

You must mean Josh Harrellson. Nah, he actually had a better game earlier in the year when we beat Louisville.Guess I'll stick to "big ape"--easier to remember.

I'm sure he'll remember that performance over anything he might have done in a regular season game.

[Jack Burton]

Guess I'll stick to "big ape"--easier to remember.
Lol. Fitting name.

[Razor Shines]

Guess I'll stick to "big ape"--easier to remember.

I'm sure he'll remember that performance over anything he might have done in a regular season game.

The guy's 21 out of 27 from the field in the NCAA tournament. Him having a good game shouldn't have been a surprise.

[kaldaniels]

For the life of me (and I'm no basketball coach) I can't figure out why OSU didn't throw in down low to Sullinger everytime until UK neutralized it. Talk about some poorly managed possesions and some low-percentage shot selections.

[WVRed]

For the life of me (and I'm no basketball coach) I can't figure out why OSU didn't throw in down low to Sullinger everytime until UK neutralized it. Talk about some poorly managed possesions and some low-percentage shot selections.

That's exactly what Ohio State did and that is exactly what Kentucky wanted them to do. Teams have doubled Sullinger all season and Ohio State makes them pay by kicking back out to wide open shooters. By playing Harrellson on Sullinger alone, you are able to keep the wings defended, but you have to hope that Harrellson can do his job. This is why 1. Sullinger had a monster game, and 2. Ohio State shot such a low number of three's.

By pounding the ball into Sullinger, you are playing into Kentucky's hands and slowing the game down. Ohio State likes to run up tempo and bomb teams from deep. If you settle on the inside, you are playing safe, low scoring basketball.

[RiverRat13]

That's exactly what Ohio State did and that is exactly what Kentucky wanted them to do. Teams have doubled Sullinger all season and Ohio State makes them pay by kicking back out to wide open shooters. By playing Harrellson on Sullinger alone, you are able to keep the wings defended, but you have to hope that Harrellson can do his job. This is why 1. Sullinger had a monster game, and 2. Ohio State shot such a low number of three's.

By pounding the ball into Sullinger, you are playing into Kentucky's hands and slowing the game down. Ohio State likes to run up tempo and bomb teams from deep. If you settle on the inside, you are playing safe, low scoring basketball.

I don't think this is entirely accurate on several levels. First, while Kentucky didn't double Sullinger in the traditional sense of running someone at him, they certainly did "dig down" on him hard most times he touched the ball. If he took more than one dribble there was help from other defenders. If he kicked it out, the UK players that dug down were in great position to close out on shooters. OSU averaged 18 3FGA per game and got off 16 Friday night, so I wouldn't necessarily say that shot a low number of 3's at all. It was pretty close to their season average. Finally, OSU was far from an up tempo team. Pomeroy had them as the 249th fastest tempo team in the nation. Kentucky played faster than OSU throughout the season.

[Redsfaithful]

Really came down to Buford having a bad night at a bad time. If his last shot is three inches different the Buckeyes win. There's moments like this in every tournament. In 2007 they could have easily (probably should have) lost to Xavier in the second round and that would have been one of the most disappointing Buckeye teams of all time. And they could have easily lost to Tennessee in the Sweet 16 also.

Now this year you have Kentucky almost losing in the first round to a not great Princeton team, and now they've got as good a chance as anyone. That's the tournament.

Anyway, it went the other way this year for Ohio State. Hats off to UK, great defensive team. Not really sure how they lost so much in the SEC from what I saw against the Buckeyes.

Would be cool if Sullinger comes back, have to think they'd be a top 5 team next year if that happens.

[Johnny Footstool]

Rhode Island
UTEP
Bucknell
Bradley
UNI

tOSU lost to a quality team, not a flash-in-the-pan like the above teams.

Don't feel so bad.

I might be adding VCU to that list today.

[Brutus]

Consolation prize for Ohio State: Jared Sullinger is returning.

It looks as though William Buford may return as well (even if he doesn't particularly want to, he's projected by many to be only a second round pick).

It won't ease the sting of losing in the Sweet 16, but they'll be in line to be a top-5 preseason pick, possibly even preseason No. 1 depending on who returns for Kentucky.

[bucksfan2]

Consolation prize for Ohio State: Jared Sullinger is returning.

It looks as though William Buford may return as well (even if he doesn't particularly want to, he's projected by many to be only a second round pick).

It won't ease the sting of losing in the Sweet 16, but they'll be in line to be a top-5 preseason pick, possibly even preseason No. 1 depending on who returns for Kentucky.

That was probably the most disappointing OSU loss in a long time. For me it was dating back to the OSU UF football game.

Its tough to see a team that talented just go out and play a bad game at the wrong time. I have to give some credit to UK for the defensive pressure they put on OSU and their length did bother OSU. But Bufford and Lighty just didn't play good games. Bufford went back to his poor shot decision old self shooting inopportune shots. Lighty seemed to be stuck back in Cleveland. Kraft played a good defensive game and played well at the point but missed all the shots he took.

If Sullinger and Bufford return that would be huge for OSU. I imagine thats the way they are leaning now and don't see anything significantly changing. I think Sullinger needs to work his game away from the basket a little. He looked awful against Harrilson on the blocks. Bufford is another guy who can really improve his draft stock. He has the ability to be a top notch 2 and probably a mid first round pick. But if those two return they should be locked and loaded for another good season. The improvements by Craft and Thomas should give this team a great starting 5. The key to next season is another big man and those who follow recruiting know better than I do.

[RiverRat13]

The key to next season is another big man and those who follow recruiting know better than I do.

Amir Williams is a Burger Boy the Bucks have coming in...

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/recruiting/player/_/id/57514/amir-williams

[cumberlandreds]

Really came down to Buford having a bad night at a bad time. If his last shot is three inches different the Buckeyes win. There's moments like this in every tournament. In 2007 they could have easily (probably should have) lost to Xavier in the second round and that would have been one of the most disappointing Buckeye teams of all time. And they could have easily lost to Tennessee in the Sweet 16 also.

Now this year you have Kentucky almost losing in the first round to a not great Princeton team, and now they've got as good a chance as anyone. That's the tournament.

Anyway, it went the other way this year for Ohio State. Hats off to UK, great defensive team. Not really sure how they lost so much in the SEC from what I saw against the Buckeyes.

Would be cool if Sullinger comes back, have to think they'd be a top 5 team next year if that happens.

One of Al McGuire's keys to winning in the NCAA's was that the last shot has to go down. In this game OSU's missed while UK's went in. That was the game in a nutshell. You have to have a certain amount of luck to win this tournament. This was one of those instances.
The reason UK lost so much in the SEC is that they just couldn't execute down the stretch in road games. Every game they lost was within six points in the conference. Youth was the biggest factor. They grew up just in time and have the exact opposite they were during the season.