This Reds team is 2 moves from winning a WS

[fewfirstchoice]

But they are going to do what they always do. Sit on their thunmbs and let their young talents value go down the drain. I dont get it. Make a move Walt get us to a WS. Sure this team is good but they are not great. Get us at least a LF because Gomes isnt the answer there my friend. Get off your thumbs and do your job.

[Vottomatic]

3 moves.

1. Good leadoff hitter. Choo
2. Good hitter behind Votto. Beltran
3. Ace starter. Lee, Greinke, or other.

[Hondo]

3 moves.

1. Good leadoff hitter. Choo
2. Good hitter behind Votto. Beltran
3. Ace starter. Lee, Greinke, or other.

You're barking up the wrong Tree with Beltran unless they eat his Salary and take Cordero and his contract. Then it still is a bad move... He is not that great of an Outfielder anymore and moving to Left would just add...

I think Gomes hits as many Homers and Drives in as many runs as Beltran in 2011

[Vottomatic]

You're barking up the wrong Tree with Beltran unless they eat his Salary and take Cordero and his contract. Then it still is a bad move... He is not that great of an Outfielder anymore and moving to Left would just add...

I think Gomes hits as many Homers and Drives in as many runs as Beltran in 2011

Gomes is done. He had a 6 week hot streak and he was figured out from that point on.

Rolen won't hold up all season.

If we don't get a better bat behind Votto, we may not even win the division next season.

[brm7675]

But they are going to do what they always do. Sit on their thunmbs and let their young talents value go down the drain. I dont get it. Make a move Walt get us to a WS. Sure this team is good but they are not great. Get us at least a LF because Gomes isnt the answer there my friend. Get off your thumbs and do your job.

And you know he is not how? You are assuming that he is just sitting there and doing nothing. Could it be there is no one available at this time that is worth anything or worth giving up anything for? What proof do you have that he is not trying?

[skywalker]

Gomes is done. He had a 6 week hot streak and he was figured out from that point on.

Rolen won't hold up all season.

If we don't get a better bat behind Votto, we may not even win the division next season.



put Bruce there

[brm7675]

3 moves.

1. Good leadoff hitter. Choo
2. Good hitter behind Votto. Beltran
3. Ace starter. Lee, Greinke, or other.

want no part of Beltran, we don't need an ACE and can't afford Lee and don't want to give up what it would take to get Greinke, plus not convinced he is better then what we have and have cheaper.

[brm7675]

Gomes is done. He had a 6 week hot streak and he was figured out from that point on.

Rolen won't hold up all season.

If we don't get a better bat behind Votto, we may not even win the division next season.

Jay Bruce.

[scott91575]

What deal so far would you take?

Werth - terrible contract. Would probably not fit in the team budget
Theriot - Reds have better on the team now
Berkman - Maybe. Yet again, I am not sure an extra $8 million fits in the budget (that is not Walt's decision).
Mark Reynolds - No thanks

There are more but I don't want to go into all of them.

The only one that would have been nice is Marcum, but I am not sure where he would fit in an already full rotation. Cueto and Arroyo are locked in. You would add Marcum to Wood, Leake, Bailey, Chapman, and Volquez for the final 3. He might not even make the rotation.

Just because something has not been done does not mean nothing is happening.

[Hondo]

What deal so far would you take?

Werth - terrible contract. Would probably not fit in the team budget
Theriot - Reds have better on the team now
Berkman - Maybe. Yet again, I am not sure an extra $8 million fits in the budget (that is not Walt's decision).
Mark Reynolds - No thanks

There are more but I don't want to go into all of them.

The only one that would have been nice is Marcum, but I am not sure where he would fit in an already full rotation. Cueto and Arroyo are locked in. You would add Marcum to Wood, Leake, Bailey, Chapman, and Volquez for the final 3. He might not even make the rotation.

Just because something has not been done does not mean nothing is happening.

Could you please never again mention this team and Theriot in the same post again. He can rot over there where he plays ball now...

Marcum? Give me a Break. I think that acquisition is about as poignant of a move as signing Randy Wolf last year...

[Vottomatic]

What deal so far would you take?

Werth - terrible contract. Would probably not fit in the team budget
Theriot - Reds have better on the team now
Berkman - Maybe. Yet again, I am not sure an extra $8 million fits in the budget (that is not Walt's decision).
Mark Reynolds - No thanks

There are more but I don't want to go into all of them.

The only one that would have been nice is Marcum, but I am not sure where he would fit in an already full rotation. Cueto and Arroyo are locked in. You would add Marcum to Wood, Leake, Bailey, Chapman, and Volquez for the final 3. He might not even make the rotation.

Just because something has not been done does not mean nothing is happening.

I agree with everything you said. I wouldn't have liked any of those moves.

Marcum wouldn't have upset me, but he is not an ace, and we have comparable pitchers already.

Beltran has one year left on his contract. I don't want him unless the trade equals out salary-wise. A one year risk I'm willing to take if we're able to unload Cordero in the deal.

More than anything I want Choo from the Indians. They have so many needs that one guy isn't going to save that organization. If we can give them several quality building blocks, I think they would listen.

An Ace is going to be hard to come by, but without one, if we make it to the playoffs, we will continue to not go far because we lack a true Ace.

[scott91575]

Marcum? Give me a Break. I think that acquisition is about as poignant of a move as signing Randy Wolf last year...

Well, I was only picking out the one deal the Reds could have pulled off, and was for a player of any value. Yet he is not needed for the Reds.

Anyway, my point is you can only evaluate what is being done by what has been done in MLB. So far, there is nothing that stands out where I think "damn, Walt should have gotten involved and offered as much if not more."

Until then, I am not going to get worked up about any lack of movement. So many people just want an acquisition or trade just for the sake of an acquisition or trade. That makes no sense, and in no way would show Walt is busy, nor does a lack of one mean he is not busy trying to make a deal.

[MikeThierry]

Few, getting to your original point, there are a lot of teams out there that are one or two players away from being a WS contender. Heck, there are teams that have everything a WS team needs but don't make it past the first round of the playoffs. However, its just not that simple. As scott pointed out, there isn't much out there right now. Its just fantasy baseball to say add this guy and that guy.

From an outsiders perspective, I think the one thing the Reds truely need is an Ace in the front of the rotation. All of the teams that advanced to the LCS had ace pitchers. It is just essential right now in todays game if teams are going to get a sniff of the WS. It is almost at the point now where teams need almost 2 ace type pitchers. Arroyo is a nice pitcher but he isn't the type of guy you want starting in Game 1 of a playoff series. Volquez and Cueto are too wild and inconsistent, in my opinion, to be aces right now. The young pitchers you have might be aces in the future but they are too young at this point to qualify as aces. I know I'm not saying anything new that nobody hasn't already stated, its just that not having an ace is such a glaring need.

[will5979]

Gomes is done. He had a 6 week hot streak and he was figured out from that point on.

Rolen won't hold up all season.
If we don't get a better bat behind Votto, we may not even win the division next season.

This is exactly what I'm afraid of and the very reason I wish the Reds would add another big bat to the lineup.

[UPRedsFan]

I'm not sure now what the greater need is. If you were Walt would you be going after Greinke or a left fielder if you could only have one?

[Vottomatic]

I'm not sure now what the greater need is. If you were Walt would you be going after Greinke or a left fielder if you could only have one?

I'd go after the Ace pitcher because we have guys on the roster who could "emerge" as that hitter behind Votto, such as Bruce.

But the only way to be sure is to sign or trade for a hitter.

[UPRedsFan]

That's where I'm at also. Would have to believe Bruce could provide protection for Votto this year. And there's probably a left field platoon in the organization that would be productive (Gomes/Nix, or Heisey/Fransisco/Alonzo).

But I'd rather have Greinke than continue to hope for Homer or Volquez or Cueto to step into the ACE level.

[brm7675]

I go LF/Bat as we have pitching, people just refuse to see the talent we have. We didn't lose to the Phils do to pitching...we lost because we didn't score.

[Hondo]

I go LF/Bat as we have pitching, people just refuse to see the talent we have. We didn't lose to the Phils do to pitching...we lost because we didn't score.

The Reds only have one starter who has pitched 200+ Innings in the rotation. This is why they need more depth.

[brm7675]

The Reds only have one starter who has pitched 200+ Innings in the rotation. This is why they need more depth.

Again the pitching is there, the depth is there, there is NO reason to waste player trades on something we don't need. We have NO LF, how can you say it's more important to add depth to a position, when we have 0 depth or talent in LF? Our pitching is just fine...:)

[Hondo]

Again the pitching is there, the depth is there, there is NO reason to waste player trades on something we don't need. We have NO LF, how can you say it's more important to add depth to a position, when we have 0 depth or talent in LF? Our pitching is just fine...:)

Not trying to be rude here but the Reds have only 1 guy who has pitched 200+ Innings in ONE Season on the Roster...

Now Cueto pitched 185 Innings last year and has been in the 170+ each of the past 3 seasons but that is it...

I Love the Reds pitching... Love it!

Leake and Wood are going to be awesome through a FULL Season... but they are young.

You would be nieve to go in banking on all the young pitchers giving the team 200+ innings each...

In my Humble Opinion... The Reds need one more Starter who has consistantly Pitched 200+ Innings...

So if Greinke is available... they need to trade for him... He is under contract for 2 years and would give the Reds a guaranteed 400 Innings PLUS from their top two Starters...

I think Wood and especially Leake will be able to consistantly throw 200+ Innings... So lets be clear on that. I just would prefer another "Quality" pitcher in the rotation who can be counted on for 32-34 Starts & 200+ Innings...

[brm7675]

In my Humble Opinion... The Reds need one more Starter who has consistantly Pitched 200+ Innings...

...

Why? What did you see during the season or in the playoffs that leads you to believe our starting pitching staff isn't deep enough and talented enough to carry us to another division title? Who cares if they throw 200+ innings, what does that have to do with anything? We have incredible depth to cover that. As I said earlier, if you watched the playoff series with Philly, our pitching is not why we didn't win, it was horrible D and no hitting. Fix the D, add more hitting and we will be fine.

[MikeThierry]

Quick question. Do the Reds have a pitcher that can match Roy Halladay, Cliff Lee, Adam Wainwright, or CC Sabathia in game 1 of a playoff series? In my opinion it is crucial to have at least one balls to the wall Ace on your staff if teams are going to advance anywhere in the playoffs. The Reds right now seem to be built to win in the regular season but will still have trouble winning in a playoff series.

BRM, it is also sort of a chicken and the egg sort of thing when you are talking about not hitting in the playoffs. Was it because all of a sudden the best offense in the National League couldn't hit or was it the fact that you went up against pitching that can shut down a lineup on a nightly basis? I can tell you this, a lot of hitters forget how to hit when they face Halladay, Wainwright, and Lincecum.

[Hondo]

Quick question. Do the Reds have a pitcher that can match Roy Halladay, Cliff Lee, Adam Wainwright, or CC Sabathia in game 1 of a playoff series? In my opinion it is crucial to have at least one balls to the wall Ace on your staff if teams are going to advance anywhere in the playoffs. The Reds right now seem to be built to win in the regular season but will still have trouble winning in a playoff series.

BRM, it is also sort of a chicken and the egg sort of thing when you are talking about not hitting in the playoffs. Was it because all of a sudden the best offense in the National League couldn't hit or was it the fact that you went up against pitching that can shut down a lineup on a nightly basis? I can tell you this, a lot of hitters forget how to hit when they face Halladay, Wainwright, and Lincecum.

Ditto...

Try explaining that to BRM7675

[MikeThierry]

Hondo, I don't know how there is any other way to explain that the Reds do not have a pitcher where I can say when the Cards play them I think to myself "Well that is probably going to be a loss".

[Girevik]

It's not an issue of depth. The Reds have TONS of depth. The question is if they have the one guy at the top of the rotation.

I wouldn't be opposed to trading to get a guy like that, I'm just not sure who it is. I don't think I put Grienke in that category. I also think there are 3 or 4 guys on the staffs now that COULD develop into that guy in the next year or two so I question how big a price I'd be willing to pay to find that guy.

[swaisuc]

Quick question. Do the Reds have a pitcher that can match Roy Halladay, Cliff Lee, Adam Wainwright, or CC Sabathia in game 1 of a playoff series? In my opinion it is crucial to have at least one balls to the wall Ace on your staff if teams are going to advance anywhere in the playoffs. The Reds right now seem to be built to win in the regular season but will still have trouble winning in a playoff series.
BRM, it is also sort of a chicken and the egg sort of thing when you are talking about not hitting in the playoffs. Was it because all of a sudden the best offense in the National League couldn't hit or was it the fact that you went up against pitching that can shut down a lineup on a nightly basis? I can tell you this, a lot of hitters forget how to hit when they face Halladay, Wainwright, and Lincecum.


This is absolutely true of the current Reds. Maybe one of Cueto, Wood, Chapman, etc develop into an elite ACE, but the way things stand right now we're going to be looking at a bunch of division titles with 1st round exits in the next 5 years. Please understand that I'm not really complaining about that. It sure as heck beats the last decade, but to believe the current structure of the Reds is set to make a world series run is probably unrealistic.

[bounty37h]

Agreed, we dont have that "near certain win" pitcher yet. I do see Leake and Wood possibly, as well as Chapman simpy with his stuff. I like Cueto and Volquez, when they are on they are really good. However, and I dont have anything to back this up but my own thoughts/observations, I dont think either of them has the mental make up to calm themselves down, dig deep, and keep it together let alone take it to the next level when they arent on or things get rough.

[Hondo]

Hondo, I don't know how there is any other way to explain that the Reds do not have a pitcher where I can say when the Cards play them I think to myself "Well that is probably going to be a loss".

Look at another reply in here...

The Phillies beat the Reds down because of Halladay, Hamels, and Oswalt...

That is 3 #1's, and I am stretching Hamels into a Number 1...

The Reds Bronson Arroyo is a great Innings eater and a great guy with the younger pitchers because he never gets wound up about "bad starts" etc...

But this team needs an ACE. A guy to shut down the other team... My point is this...

Arroyo 215.2 IP
Cueto 185.2 IP
Leake 138.1 IP
Bailey 109 IP
Wood 102.2 IP (100 Innings @ AAA also)

[Vottomatic]

I think the Reds should start a new trend and go to a 6 man starting rotation.

Arroyo, Cueto, Bailey, Leake, Wood, Volquez.

Not kidding.

Teams used to have 4 man rotations. Then it went to 5 man rotations. Why not 6? We have the power. We have the technology. We can rebuild him..........da na na na........The Six Million Dollar Man........uh, but I digress. We have the pitchers to do it. And if one gets injured we have Maloney and LeCure in the minors to fill in. Even Chapman if needed.

It would lower the innings pitched and wear and tear on those arms.

[brm7675]

Ditto...

Try explaining that to BRM7675

you don't have to have a pitcher to match them. If your overall pitching staff is strong, not having an 'ACE" is not something that will keep you out of the WS. How did not having an ACE keep us from winning vs. philly? We were shut out in game one and basically game 3, so that left game 2. Our pitching was good enough to limit the might Philly offense to managabile runs, yet our offense did nothing. Put a might bat in there in LF and the playoffs are a different result.

[brm7675]

How did the ACE's of Philly do this post season? The Phils went out, spent all that money to have not 1 not 2 but basically 3 aces and how did that WS parade go in Philly? The Rangers traded for an ACE and how did he do in the WS? It was the depth of the Giants pitching staff that brought them a WS. Give me depth over 1 "ACE" any day.

[Hondo]

How did the ACE's of Philly do this post season? The Phils went out, spent all that money to have not 1 not 2 but basically 3 aces and how did that WS parade go in Philly? The Rangers traded for an ACE and how did he do in the WS? It was the depth of the Giants pitching staff that brought them a WS. Give me depth over 1 "ACE" any day.

They got beat by Tim Lincecum, a little known pitcher from out West, Matt Cain, a journey man, and Madison Bumgartner, a career minor leaguer until now...

You're right! :rolleyes:

[gedred69]

you don't have to have a pitcher to match them. If your overall pitching staff is strong, not having an 'ACE" is not something that will keep you out of the WS. How did not having an ACE keep us from winning vs. philly? We were shut out in game one and basically game 3, so that left game 2. Our pitching was good enough to limit the might Philly offense to managabile runs, yet our offense did nothing. Put a might bat in there in LF and the playoffs are a different result.

Agreed. Add in the fact that Rolen did not look to be himself, providing no backing for Votto. In the Division series, I believe only 2 Reds players had more than one hit for the entire 3 games. I'd have liked Reds chances with another bat.

[Vottomatic]

Agreed. Add in the fact that Rolen did not look to be himself, providing no backing for Votto. In the Division series, I believe only 2 Reds players had more than one hit for the entire 3 games. I'd have liked Reds chances with another bat.

Yeah, maybe that one more bat would have gotten one more hit, while we were being shutout and made the stats look better with 2 or 3 hits total for the game. :rolleyes:

[scott91575]

They got beat by Tim Lincecum, a little known pitcher from out West, Matt Cain, a journey man, and Madison Bumgartner, a career minor leaguer until now...

You're right! :rolleyes:

So those teams got beat by a team with 3 aces. Therefore, it looks like the Reds need 4.

[Hondo]

So those teams got beat by a team with 3 aces. Therefore, it looks like the Reds need 4.

You may need some medication~

It means the Reds need another Pitcher that can Shut Down the opposition.

Felix Hernadez
Zach Greinke


only one of these guys will ever be available...

Reds need to pull the trigger on Greinke...

And for those people who say he isn't worth his price tag or his emotional issues are a worry...

You have the Rangers, Blue Jays, Anaheim Angels, Florida Marlins, Washington Nationals (ok, they may be on helium since they gave Werth that contract), Milwaukee Brewers, Seattle Mariners all looking into dealing for Greinke...

Seems to me a lot of teams are lining up for "damaged" goods...

This is the guy to go get Walt...

Just gave Arroyo 35 Million and Bruce 51 Million+

Please pull the trigger on this ACE... This dude had an ERA of 2.16 in the AMERICAN LEAGUE 2 years ago... Thats AMAZING!

Baseball Think Factory has is 2011 Stats Projected at:

Zack Greinke R 27 3.28 16 8 33 33 222.0 206 81 17 52 211 129

http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/files/oracle/discussion/2011_zips_projections_-_kansas_city_royals/

That is worth the 13.5 Million in Salary right there and that would be based on being in the American League... Which I believe his stats would be better pitching in the National League... If you proroject him in the NL in 2011, you get these Statistics...

Zack Greinke R 27 3.00 19 10 34 34 228.0 191 76 21 43 229 136


Come on Reds!

[MikeThierry]

you don't have to have a pitcher to match them. If your overall pitching staff is strong, not having an 'ACE" is not something that will keep you out of the WS. How did not having an ACE keep us from winning vs. philly? We were shut out in game one and basically game 3, so that left game 2. Our pitching was good enough to limit the might Philly offense to managabile runs, yet our offense did nothing. Put a might bat in there in LF and the playoffs are a different result.

So you were placing all your hope on game 2? In the first playoff round, pitchers that have the ability to shut down other teams in two of the five games gives those teams the best chance to win the series. It is essential in a 5 game series to have front of the line rotation.

[scott91575]

You may need some medication

Well, I was just kidding. I pulled a Vottomatic.

[brm7675]

You may need some medication~

It means the Reds need another Pitcher that can Shut Down the opposition.

Felix Hernadez
Zach Greinke


only one of these guys will ever be available...

Reds need to pull the trigger on Greinke...

And for those people who say he isn't worth his price tag or his emotional issues are a worry...

You have the Rangers, Blue Jays, Anaheim Angels, Florida Marlins, Washington Nationals (ok, they may be on helium since they gave Werth that contract), Milwaukee Brewers, Seattle Mariners all looking into dealing for Greinke...

Seems to me a lot of teams are lining up for "damaged" goods...

This is the guy to go get Walt...

Just gave Arroyo 35 Million and Bruce 51 Million+

Please pull the trigger on this ACE... This dude had an ERA of 2.16 in the AMERICAN LEAGUE 2 years ago... Thats AMAZING!

Baseball Think Factory has is 2011 Stats Projected at:

Zack Greinke R 27 3.28 16 8 33 33 222.0 206 81 17 52 211 129

http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/files/oracle/discussion/2011_zips_projections_-_kansas_city_royals/

That is worth the 13.5 Million in Salary right there and that would be based on being in the American League... Which I believe his stats would be better pitching in the National League... If you proroject him in the NL in 2011, you get these Statistics...

Zack Greinke R 27 3.00 19 10 34 34 228.0 191 76 21 43 229 136


Come on Reds!

just say NO to the Greinke...

[brm7675]

So you were placing all your hope on game 2? In the first playoff round, pitchers that have the ability to shut down other teams in two of the five games gives those teams the best chance to win the series. It is essential in a 5 game series to have front of the line rotation.

We should have won game 2. Our pitching didn't cost us games 1 and 3, our lack of offense did. Outside of pitching a perfect game, having an 'ace" wouldn't have changed the outcome of game one given our offense. In game 3 had we produced offensivily we don't lose that game and there we are up 2-1 in the series. Again we lost do to our lack of hitting, not our lack of quality pitching.

[bounty37h]

We should have won game 2. Our pitching didn't cost us games 1 and 3, our lack of offense did. Outside of pitching a perfect game, having an 'ace" wouldn't have changed the outcome of game one given our offense. In game 3 had we produced offensivily we don't lose that game and there we are up 2-1 in the series. Again we lost do to our lack of hitting, not our lack of quality pitching.

Is it our lack of hitting, or their ace that kept us from hitting? Kind of a which came first riddle...

[ED#44]

Well, I was just kidding. I pulled a Vottomatic.


That's not Vottomatic, his real name is chatter!

[Hondo]

So you were placing all your hope on game 2? In the first playoff round, pitchers that have the ability to shut down other teams in two of the five games gives those teams the best chance to win the series. It is essential in a 5 game series to have front of the line rotation.

If you think I am putting ALL Hope in Game 2, then I want to end this Debate.

Ever heard of Momentum...

The Phillies had the Reds on their heels after the first 4 Innings of Game 1 through the entire series...

Also: Philidelphia Phillies looking at Zach Greinke...

http://insider.espn.go.com/insider/features/rumors/_/date/20101210#7961

I wonder why the Phillies are not going to just say NO to Greinke?

[brm7675]

If you think I am putting ALL Hope in Game 2, then I want to end this Debate.

Ever heard of Momentum...

The Phillies had the Reds on their heels after the first 4 Innings of Game 1 through the entire series...

Also: Philidelphia Phillies looking at Zach Greinke...

http://insider.espn.go.com/insider/features/rumors/_/date/20101210#7961

I wonder why the Phillies are not going to just say NO to Greinke?

Where did all that pitching get them last year? Their overall record wasn't that much better then the Reds....

[Todd Gack]

But they are going to do what they always do. Sit on their thunmbs and let their young talents value go down the drain. I dont get it. Make a move Walt get us to a WS. Sure this team is good but they are not great. Get us at least a LF because Gomes isnt the answer there my friend. Get off your thumbs and do your job.


We play 3 more games than the Pirates last year.
We played in the weakest division in baseball.
Our best pitcher is a set-up guy who we still don't know if he can be a starting pitcher.
No definitive lead-off hitter.
Closer is shaky.

There are simply too many question marks on this team to say it's a WS contender.

[Todd Gack]

just say NO to the Greinke...

Agreed. Greinke's anxiety questions really scare me if i was trading some top prospects for him.

[brm7675]

We play 3 more games than the Pirates last year.
We played in the weakest division in baseball.
Our best pitcher is a set-up guy who we still don't know if he can be a starting pitcher.
No definitive lead-off hitter.
Closer is shaky.

There are simply too many question marks on this team to say it's a WS contender.

We won the division, the Pirates finished last
Our best pitcher is Johnny Cueto, followed by Bronson, with Leake and Wood right on their tail, please wake up.
When have we had a definitive lead off hitter? what is wrong with Brandon?
How is the closer shaky?

What team were you watching last season?

[Hondo]

We won the division, the Pirates finished last
Our best pitcher is Johnny Cueto, followed by Bronson, with Leake and Wood right on their tail, please wake up.
When have we had a definitive lead off hitter? what is wrong with Brandon?
How is the closer shaky?

What team were you watching last season?

I agree with you on Everything but...

Cordero as Closer is Shaky. That is in the stats.

[MikeThierry]

Where did all that pitching get them last year? Their overall record wasn't that much better then the Reds....

Well it did get them in to the LCS. I guess that's nothing though. The NL east is also a tough division to go through considering that the Braves were the wild card team from the NL this year.

Hondo, I might be out of line here but Ryan Franklin might be a more stable closer than Cordero right now.