Pie-Rats @ Reds 4-16

[CarolinaRedleg]

Lineup and a couple-o-notes courtesy of Fayman...

Stubbs cf
Cairo 2b
Votto 1b
Gomes lf
Bruce rf
Francisco 3b
Hernandez c
Janish ss
Leake p

-Phillips (groin) expected to return Sunday.

-Leake starts today because he flopped spots with Volquez, who is dealing with a stiff neck. Volquez is scheduled to go Sunday.

-Rolen with scheduled day off.

[westofyou]

Chew on this.

Gomes and Votto have 75% of the Reds walks.

By far the most lopsided proportion in the league.

[Reds/Flyers Fan]

Not really digging this lineup ... hope they prove me wrong

[reds44]

I think I have better stuff than Mike Leake.

Sorry, early starts and this lineup make me grumpy.

[mth123]

McCutcheon singles and steals second. Stubbs saved a base on a bad throw.

[mth123]

Tabata K's.

[mth123]

Overbay grounds to Votto. Runner to 3B with 2 out.

[mth123]

Walker walks.

[mth123]

Alvarez grounds to Janish who steps on 2B for the force. Pirates out with no runs.

[WebScorpion]

McCutcheon singles and steals second. Stubbs saved a base on a bad throw.
I thought Cairo should have had that...he may not have been out, but Cairo should have caught that ball. Just one of those little things that a regular almost always does better than someone who plays the position sporadically.

[mth123]

I thought Cairo should have had that...he may not have been out, but Cairo should have caught that ball. Just one of those little things that a regular almost always does better than someone who plays the position sporadically.

The drop-off from Phillips to any other 2B in the system is cavernous. Many think the money would be better spent elsewhere, but I hope the Reds extend Phillips for about 3 more seasons.

Stubbs Ks.

[mth123]

Cairo foul pops to the catcher. 2 outs.

[mth123]

Votto flies to LF.

[mth123]

James McDonald should never have an inning that easy.

[Cedric]

One of those stretches where the Reds half inning lasts about 2 minutes.

[mth123]

One of those stretches where the Reds half inning lasts about 2 minutes.

Yep. I'm calling it though. Francisco is going to get him in the 2nd.:thumbup:

[Reds/Flyers Fan]

This offense is in a funk and has been for awhile ... outside of that extra inning explosion (which would never have happened if not for Nick Masset), it's been fairly non-existent.

[mth123]

Doumit grounds to Cairo. 1 down.

[WebScorpion]

The drop-off from Phillips to any other 2B in the system is cavernous. Many think the money would be better spent elsewhere, but I hope the Reds extend Phillips for about 3 more seasons.

Stubbs Ks.
Agreed. I hope he gets his wish to be a 'lifetime Red' like Barry Larkin. DatDude is worth every penny we pay him. He works tirelessly to improve in every area and he's a real PR asset as well...fans love him (maybe because he truly appreciates them) He's like a toned down OchoCinco. He's not perfect, but I can't think of another 2nd baseman I'd rather have.

[Cedric]

Does any pitcher in baseball throw worse 0-2 pitches than Mike Leake? He just gets the ball and throws that same damn sinker right down the middle.

[mth123]

This offense is in a funk and has been for awhile ... outside of that extra inning explosion (which would never have happened if not for Nick Masset), it's been fairly non-existent.

It continues to be my biggest concern. In GABP, the Reds should have a top 4 offense just to be average. The pitching in GABP will do really well to be middle of the pack. Assuning the injured guys come back, I'm more confident that the pitching can finish in the middle than I am of the offense near the top.

[_Sir_Charles_]

Yessirree! 4-6-3 DP to end the inning.

[mth123]

I see some of our PBP gurus are here now. Feel free to take over for my poor typing skills.

[_Sir_Charles_]

The drop-off from Phillips to any other 2B in the system is cavernous. Many think the money would be better spent elsewhere, but I hope the Reds extend Phillips for about 3 more seasons.


Absolutely. He's well above average offensively and light years ahead of anybody else in the system defensively. He also seems to like it in Cincy. Extending him for 3 or more years is an excellent idea.

[reds44]

Our red jersey are awesome.

[reds44]

Gomes.

1-0.

[_Sir_Charles_]

GOMES! :jump:

[mth123]

Woo Hoo Gomes. Make us eat crow. Tastes good.

[OesterPoster]

Oh Jonny, oh Jonny.

[WebScorpion]

Jonny Walker Red goes yard!! :beerme:

[OesterPoster]

Our red jersey are awesome.

I love the red jersey too, but there's one thing I don't like about the different jersey-hat combinations, and it's the road cap with the black bill. Hate that hat.

[_Sir_Charles_]

Bruce flies out to right.

[_Sir_Charles_]

Juan grounds out to first. 2 down.

[reds44]

Francisco is just all out of whack right now. Not hitting anything hard.

[_Sir_Charles_]

Razor with a shot down the LF corner for a double.

[OesterPoster]

Who is the everyday 3rd baseman for Louisville, Frazier?

[_Sir_Charles_]

Marty letting Brantley have it. Basically calling him a freaking idiot. :O) Good stuff.

[_Sir_Charles_]

Soft J, 0 for his last 12. He's due.

[_Sir_Charles_]

Janish flies out to right to end the inning. But the Redlegs strike first. 1-0 Reds after 2 full.

[_Sir_Charles_]

KK

[_Sir_Charles_]

McCutchen with a soft line out to Bruce. Quickly 2 down. Tabata up (he's been on freaking fire lately).

[WebScorpion]

Who is the everyday 3rd baseman for Louisville, Frazier?
I just checked the last three box scores and yes, Frazier played 3rd every night. I hope Juan goes down and plays every day when Lewis is ready. I think he's got a long way to go until he's ready to be an every day major leaguer. BTW, the Bats are 8-1. :eek: :thumbup:

[_Sir_Charles_]

K#3

1-2-3 down go the Buccos

[_Sir_Charles_]

Yep, the Bats lost their first game of the year and then have gone freaking nuts. Nice to see.

[WebScorpion]

K#3

1-2-3 down go the BuccosFinally, someone fools Tabata. :thumbup: :beerme:

[_Sir_Charles_]

Finally, someone fools Tabata. :thumbup: :beerme:

He's been pretty much locked in all year thus far.

[_Sir_Charles_]

Leake grounded out to first. Stubbs CRUSHES one but it's a double...one hops the wall.

[reds44]

That Cairo contract is bad news bears.

[Kc61]

I just checked the last three box scores and yes, Frazier played 3rd every night. I hope Juan goes down and plays every day when Lewis is ready. I think he's got a long way to go until he's ready to be an every day major leaguer. BTW, the Bats are 8-1. :eek: :thumbup:

Juan will contribute. He needs time to get comfortable. There must be a lot of pressure on him -- especially if reads RedsZone where people for years have been giving up on him.

He's done well defensively and isn't striking out. Let's give him his share of at bats.

I'm particularly patient because Juan's left hand bat can add a lot to this team.

I feel he's ready for the majors but he's always needed some time to get going - at every level.

[_Sir_Charles_]

He grounds out to short. Stubby has to hold. MVP up.

[mth123]

Nice Votto

[WebScorpion]

That Cairo contract is bad news bears.
Come on, it's one AB. Cairo usually has great at bats...very disciplined and goes with what they give him. He's no regular, but he's very good for a utility infielder.

[reds44]

Juan will contribute. He needs time to get comfortable. There must be a lot of pressure on him -- especially if reads RedsZone where people for years have been giving up on him.

He's done well defensively and isn't striking out. Let's give him his share of at bats.

I'm particularly patient because Juan's left hand bat can add a lot to this team.

I feel he's ready for the majors but he's always needed some time to get going - at every level.
Yeah, honestly I don't think this is him being overmatched, I just don't think he's find his stroke yet.

MVP.

[_Sir_Charles_]

Votto! Single that plates Stubbs. Votto to second on the throw home. 2-0 Reds

[Kc61]

How did they pitch to Votto there. Ridiculous. You can't throw anything close to the MVP in that spot

[Tornon]

How did they pitch to Votto there. Ridiculous. You can't throw anything close to the MVP in that spot

That's true, but it had to be in McDonald's mind that the guy on deck hit a tracer off him last inning

[mth123]

Juan will contribute. He needs time to get comfortable. There must be a lot of pressure on him -- especially if reads RedsZone where people for years have been giving up on him.

He's done well defensively and isn't striking out. Let's give him his share of at bats.

I'm particularly patient because Juan's left hand bat can add a lot to this team.

I feel he's ready for the majors but he's always needed some time to get going - at every level.

Agreed. I don't see Juan accomplishing much in AAA. He's already ripped it up with his current approach and has no reason to adjust what he's doing.

[_Sir_Charles_]

How did they pitch to Votto there. Ridiculous. You can't throw anything close to the MVP in that spot

I agree. But Gomes was up next and he'd just gone yard.

The walking machine continues. :O) 1st & 2nd for Bruce

[WebScorpion]

Jonny Walker does it again. Walk, that is, not homer like last time. ;)

[_Sir_Charles_]

That was ball 4....as was the next one that Jay swings at head high.

[WebScorpion]

That was ball 4.
Yup...in his eyes, but he couldn't resist. He's still fouling them off though...staying alive.

[Tornon]

Not quite. Good AB though

[_Sir_Charles_]

Darn. Jay crushes one but right at McCutchen. 2-0 Reds after 3.

[mth123]

Not quite. Good AB though

Saw a lot of pitches anyway. Should have been on 1B several pitches ago.

[edabbs44]

That Cairo contract is bad news bears.

$1MM per year is really nothing to get worked up about.

[_Sir_Charles_]

Saw a lot of pitches anyway. Should have been on 1B several pitches ago.

Yep. Not sure I'd call it a good ab or not. Easily should've been a walk.

[_Sir_Charles_]

KKKK Down goes Overbay to start the 4th.

[mth123]

$1MM per year is really nothing to get worked up about.

It means he's on the team and there is one less spot available for a younger more talented player. When Lewis comes back, Francisco goes down and I'd rather have Juan...

or Cozart...

or Negron ...

or Frazier ...

or Sappelt...

or Hermida...

or Alonso...

or Dorn ...

or maybe even Valaika.

[_Sir_Charles_]

It means he's on the team and there is one less spot available for a younger more talented player. When Lewis comes back, FRancisco gies down and I rather have Juan...

or Cozart...

or Negron ...

or Frazier ...

or Sappelt...

or Hermida...

or Alonso...

or Dorn ...

or maybe even Valaika.

All true, but (and this is a big BUT) all those guys would be getting put to sleep on the bench for the most part. Wouldn't you rather see them getting regular playing time?

[_Sir_Charles_]

Walker walks after starting out 0-2.

[mth123]

All true, but (and this is a big BUT) all those guys would be getting put to sleep on the bench for the most part. Wouldn't you rather see them getting regular playing time?

Nope. I'd rather they be available to help the major league team win games if they improve the chances over a guy on the roster.

[_Sir_Charles_]

Alvarez walks as well. Leake is starting to nibble and he's not getting the black.

1 down, 1st & 2nd with Doumit up.

[WebScorpion]

It means he's on the team and there is one less spot available for a younger more talented player. When Lewis comes back, FRancisco gies down and I rather have Juan...

or Cozart...

or Negron ...

or Frazier ...

or Sappelt...

or Hermida...

or Alonso...

or Dorn ...

or maybe even Valaika.
I disagree. I think Cairo is the perfect guy to sit on the bench, fill in at any position in the infield when people get dinged up, give quality pinch hit ABs, and even serve as veteran leadership in the way he prepares every day. I want every one of those guys you mentioned, except maybe Hermida, playing every day and honing their skills for the day when they are a regular on the big club. My 2 cents.

[_Sir_Charles_]

Doumit singles to left. Bases jacked. Garrett Jones up

[Red in Chicago]

Not a big fan of Leake throwing the day after Bronson.

[Cedric]

Not a big fan of Leake throwing the day after Bronson.

I'm not a fan of Leake throwing ever at this level.

[_Sir_Charles_]

*sigh* 3-0 to Jones.

[reds44]

You think if Leake threw a ball as hard as he could at it window, if it would leave a mark?

[_Sir_Charles_]

http://www.red-hot-mama.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/walks_will_haunt.jpg

[mth123]

I disagree. I think Cairo is the perfect guy to sit on the bench, fill in at any position in the infield when people get dinged up, give quality pinch hit ABs, and even serve as veteran leadership in the way he prepares every day. I want every one of those guys you mentioned, except maybe Hermida, playing every day and honing their skills for the day when they are a regular on the big club. My 2 cents.

I just think the caddy to Rolen is probably going to get 250 to 300 PAs. I don't want Cairo getting that many after Lewis pushes Francisco off the roster. Renteria and Cairo are duplicates. The other spot needs to be a LH Bat with pop who can hit in the middle of the line-up when Rolen sits and he needs to be enough of a threat so that the team isn't tempted to push Rolen too far because the line-up is screwed without him.

Cairo can't hit lefty, can't play SS, can't hit in the middle of the order and doesn't offer speed or defense off the bench. He's OK as a 25th man, but the Reds have a lot of better options who can fill all those roles that the bench is lacking to some extent.

[Homer Bailey]

Please come back Johnny and Homer.

[_Sir_Charles_]

You think if Leake threw a ball as hard as he could at it window, if it would leave a mark?

Okay, I'm just not getting this garbage. He throws his fastball at 90-92. What exactly is so horrible with this?

[edabbs44]

It means he's on the team and there is one less spot available for a younger more talented player. When Lewis comes back, Francisco goes down and I rather have Juan...

or Cozart...

or Negron ...

or Frazier ...

or Sappelt...

or Hermida...

or Alonso...

or Dorn ...

or maybe even Valaika.

I was really talking about the contract. If Cairo becomes ancient very, very fast, that contract isn't all that much of an issue.

And I really would not want many of those names over Cairo at this point. Just because this is a team game, not a collection of names game. Jettisoning Cairo for these guys makes little sense.

[WebScorpion]

I'm not a fan of Leake throwing ever at this level.lol :laugh: He's getting a little wild out there. They're not really hittng him hard, yet (3 hits in 4 innings) he just can't find the plate. :(

[kaldaniels]

Okay, I'm just not getting this garbage. He throws his fastball at 90-92. What exactly is so horrible with this?

And to quote someone on here earlier this week,"historical" movement.

[Cedric]

Please come back Johnny and Homer.

I think Dontrelle will make the next start for Leake. This guy just isn't a Major league pitcher and I don't think he ever will be.

[_Sir_Charles_]

Pop out to Gomes....runner tags and scores. 2-2 ballgame.

[edabbs44]

You think if Leake threw a ball as hard as he could at it window, if it would leave a mark?

Not sure why some pitchers can have bad innings and others cannot.

[kaldaniels]

I think Dontrelle will make the next start for Leake. This guy just isn't a Major league pitcher and I don't think he ever will be.

I'm not gonna challenge that, but I think that take is a bit overboard, no direspect intended. To each his own.

[reds44]

Not sure why some pitchers can have bad innings and others cannot.
Man with ERA of 6.28 is not having a "bad inning."

[_Sir_Charles_]

KKKKK

[_Sir_Charles_]

Man with ERA of 6.28 is not having a "bad inning."

So what's that say about Edinson with his glowing 5.82 ERA...just now down from 7.50 & 7.36.

[Tornon]

Man with ERA of 6.28 is not having a "bad inning."

A 6.28 ERA after 14 1/3 innings pretty much is 1 bad inning

[reds44]

So what's that say about Edinson with his glowing 5.82 ERA...just now down from 7.50 & 7.36.
If you think what Volquez has done this year is anything like what Leake is doing, I suggest you watch more Reds games.

[KoryMac5]

Not ready to give up on Leake yet, as I think he may benefit from some seasoning in AAA. Leclure and others have passed him by on the depth chart.

[WebScorpion]

Better than last time...he settled down and got out of it. :dunno: Maybe the wind is giving him trouble. For what it's worth, I think Leake is better than most team's 5th starter, but I wouldn't be against him pitching in AAA when better options are available.

PS - I don't consider Lecure, Maloney, or Willis 'better options'.

[edabbs44]

Man with ERA of 6.28 is not having a "bad inning."

Take away the 5th inning in Zona and that ERA looks a lot better.

[mth123]

That was really close.

[reds44]

Take away the 5th inning in Zona and that ERA looks a lot better.
Says the man who takes away half a season from Volquez.

[_Sir_Charles_]

If you think what Volquez has done this year is anything like what Leake is doing, I suggest you watch more Reds games.

Nope...just pointing out the fact that you're using one stat to basically say that Leake is worthless. The kid had STELLAR numbers in college. He skipped the minors. Had a STELLAR first half of 2010 and then crashed back to earth after he got fatigued. I think he should get a LITTLE bit of slack.

[Cedric]

Nope...just pointing out the fact that you're using one stat to basically say that Leake is worthless. The kid had STELLAR numbers in college. He skipped the minors. Had a STELLAR first half of 2010 and then crashed back to earth after he got fatigued. I think he should get a LITTLE bit of slack.

This isn't the Pac Ten.

[REDREAD]

Leake is a major league pitcher. So is Edinson V.
Now neither of them is probably ever going to win a Cy Young, but they are solid.

Cairo is fine for what he's making.. 1 million for a pretty decent veteran utility guy.. And there's no one better at Louisville. Supposedly Juan is the best option from Louisville now, and he's doing worse than Cario.

[reds44]

Nope...just pointing out the fact that you're using one stat to basically say that Leake is worthless. The kid had STELLAR numbers in college. He skipped the minors. Had a STELLAR first half of 2010 and then crashed back to earth after he got fatigued. I think he should get a LITTLE bit of slack.
He'll be in AAA in a couple weeks.

[WebScorpion]

Paul Janish bunt clinic is open! :thumbup:

[edabbs44]

Says the man who takes away half a season from Volquez.

I don't take anything away from the guy. I just don't act like we should be expecting so much improvement from the guy since what we have seen is pretty much what he was prior to the surgery.

[edabbs44]

Paul Janish bunt clinic is open! :thumbup:

Paulie is finally off the schneid. Hopefully that kickstarts him a bit.

Leake needs to leg that one out.

[_Sir_Charles_]

This isn't the Pac Ten.

No, it's not. But it's solid enough competition to give us an idea of what he's capable of. He had numbers that compared favorably to Steven Strasberg in some respects. To say he's not capable of success at this level is to completely ignore his first half last year. 5-0 with a 2.22 era into June last year.

[Tornon]

Was he really out?

[mth123]

Nope...just pointing out the fact that you're using one stat to basically say that Leake is worthless. The kid had STELLAR numbers in college. He skipped the minors. Had a STELLAR first half of 2010 and then crashed back to earth after he got fatigued. I think he should get a LITTLE bit of slack.

Not buying the fatigue stuff. He became a HR machine at 75 innings. He was a kid who took advantage of the league's unfamiliarity to get off to a good start and is over-rated because of it. Kid was pitching in College in 2009. Not sure why sending him to AAA is such a taboo with some. I still think he can be a decent starter in the majors, but I'm skeptical where 2011 is concerned.

[WebScorpion]

Leake needs to leg that one out.
I think he was safe. It was close enough that it could have gone either way.

[_Sir_Charles_]

Leake nearly legs one out. 2 down, runners at 2nd & 3rd.

Stubbs...flies out to Tabata to end the inning.

[reds44]

No, it's not. But it's solid enough competition to give us an idea of what he's capable of. He had numbers that compared favorably to Steven Strasberg in some respects. To say he's not capable of success at this level is to completely ignore his first half last year. 5-0 with a 2.22 era into June last year.
He had an ERA comparable of Strasburg. That's about it.

[Kc61]

The Francisco play and the Leake play at first were both very close that inning. I thought they were both safe, but I'm not neutral.

[_Sir_Charles_]

He'll be in AAA in a couple weeks.

As he probably should be. But so should Volquez until he learns where the strike zone is at.

[reds44]

As he probably should be. But so should Volquez until he learns where the strike zone is at.
Yeah, uh, no.

[Cedric]

As he probably should be. But so should Volquez until he learns where the strike zone is at.

Volquez is our best pitcher.

[_Sir_Charles_]

KKKKKK

As we learned last year, if Leake has a problem with walks...he REALLY struggles. 4 today.

[_Sir_Charles_]

Overbay grounds out to short. 2 down.

[reds44]

Fun fact: Volquez has walked an entire two more guys than Leake this year. In more innings too.

[reds44]

Janish! MERCY

[Cedric]

No, it's not. But it's solid enough competition to give us an idea of what he's capable of. He had numbers that compared favorably to Steven Strasberg in some respects. To say he's not capable of success at this level is to completely ignore his first half last year. 5-0 with a 2.22 era into June last year.

I'm not overreacting because of a few games. I just don't think he has good enough stuff to last at this level.

Hopefully I'm wrong.

[WebScorpion]

Volquez is our best pitcher.

...as long as it's not the first inning. :laugh:

[mth123]

I actually think Leake is doing OK today. He had a bad inning, but the Leake I've come to expect would have given up a three run HR to top that inning off. He got the K and got out of it. He has 6 K's and is doing pretty well. Could be the Pirates, but he's OK today.

[WebScorpion]

I love to watch Paul Janish play SS! :clap:

[_Sir_Charles_]

Yeah, uh, no.



Volquez is our best pitcher.

Seriously? He has the ABILITY to be our best pitcher. But does anybody here really think he IS right now?

[_Sir_Charles_]

Janish struts his stuff again. Nice play! 1-2-3 for Leake.

[reds44]

Seriously? He has the ABILITY to be our best pitcher. But does anybody here really think he IS right now?
He's probably second behind Wood right now.

[reds44]

Votto is good.

[Tornon]

Juan's got this

[reds44]

Come on, Juan.

[Cedric]

Bruce scuffling and I still agree with this. Juan is pulling off everything and is a DP waiting to happen every at bat lately.

[WebScorpion]

Juan's got thisHe needs to take this personally...they just walked a guy hitting .213 to get to him.

[Red in Chicago]

nice swing juan...sad

[GAC]

chat is open

[WebScorpion]

nice swing juan...sadmajor league hitters do not swing at first pitch curve balls with the bases loaded.

[Tornon]

BASE HIT!

[REDREAD]

He's probably second behind Wood right now.

Not sure how you can make that arguement. He's had 3 starts. Two were horrible.

He's also behind Arroyo for sure. He's also behind Cueto.
He's about even with Leake and Homer. (Too early to tell at this point)

[reds44]

Atta boy kid!!

[_Sir_Charles_]

Juan! Single to Jones! 3-2 Reds

[Ron Madden]

Big hit for Juan!!

[_Sir_Charles_]

Not sure how you can make that arguement. He's had 3 starts. Two were horrible.

He's also behind Arroyo for sure. He's also behind Cueto.
He's about even with Leake and Homer. (Too early to tell at this point)

Heck, I'd say he's behind LeCure too right now. Sam's flown under the radar, but he's been VERY good.

[Cedric]

Not sure how you can make that arguement. He's had 3 starts. Two were horrible.

He's also behind Arroyo for sure. He's also behind Cueto.
He's about even with Leake and Homer. (Too early to tell at this point)

Leake isn't even in Volquez universe. Look a tiny bit beyond ERA.

[reds44]

Leake isn't even in Volquez universe. Look a tiny bit beyond ERA.
Thank God somebody else said it.

[_Sir_Charles_]

Leake isn't even in Volquez universe. Look a tiny bit beyond ERA.

Okay, you also might want to take a gander at their ages too.

In regards to velocity and "stuff"...yeah, Edinson's got a much higher upside than Leake does. I don't think anybody is arguing that. But if he can't get some control to put that stuff to work, he'll never be successful. He'll continue to flirt with disaster every time out with all the walks and the huge pitch counts and short outings.

Leake, however, is a pitcher very similar to Bronson Arroyo. A finesse pitcher who's still honing his craft. He could CERTAINLY use some time in the minors, but I think he's proved that he's definitely got enough "stuff" to succeed in the bigs.

When Edinson is ON, he's fantastic. Same goes for Leake. When they're off...they're both batting tees.

[_Sir_Charles_]

Bray warming.

[WebScorpion]

Time for Razor Ramon to pick one out. ;)

[REDREAD]

Heck, I'd say he's behind LeCure too right now. Sam's flown under the radar, but he's been VERY good.

Sorry, I forgot about LeCure.. I think you make a good point.. At bare minimum, LeCure is at the same level of Volquez/Homer/Leake.

Based on the season so far, LeCure has definitely been better. Not sure if he can maintain it or not.

[reds44]

RAMON!!!!!!

Slam!

[_Sir_Charles_]

GONE! :jump: GRAND SALAMI!!!

[Red in Chicago]

MERCY!!!!!!

[Ron Madden]

What a shot!!!

[WebScorpion]

YEAH!!! That's the one! :beerme:

[mth123]

Woo hoo.

[GAC]

Man! Did he crush that one!

[Cedric]

Razor!

[TheBurn]

Nicely done Ramón! :clap:

[REDREAD]

Leake isn't even in Volquez universe. Look a tiny bit beyond ERA.

I look at results. Volquez has more talent, but frankly Leake has better control and more intelligence.

It doesn't matter how many Ks Volquez racks up if he gives up 4 runs in the first inning.

[reds44]

I look at results. Volquez has more talent, but frankly Leake has better control and more intelligence.

It doesn't matter how many Ks Volquez racks up if he gives up 4 runs in the first inning.
Fail.

Love to hear this argument.

[OesterPoster]

First row of the Kroger Bleachers. Freaking BOMB.

[reds44]

Folks, just because a pitcher doesn't have as good of stuff as somebody else, does not mean they are a "more intelligent" pitcher.

[WebScorpion]

Nicely done Ramón! :clap:The fans cheered enough to force him to come out and tip his cap. :D He deserved it! He cooled off for a bit there, but he's seeing beach balls today! With Rolen and Phillips out of the lineup and Bruce still scuffling, we need him today. :thumbup:

[Tom Servo]

YouTube - Razor Ramon Titantron (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r33rhpk3-w8)

[reds44]

Johnny Cueto so far today: 3 IP, 1 H, 0 R, 1 BB, 4 K, 38 pitches/25 strikes.

[_Sir_Charles_]

Folks, just because a pitcher doesn't have as good of stuff as somebody else, does not mean they are a "more intelligent" pitcher.

True. However, right now...Volquez is a THROWER. Leake is a PITCHER. He doesn't have the overpowering stuff to blow a hitter away. He's got to outsmart a hitter. Totally different styles, but BOTH can be equally effective.

[_Sir_Charles_]

Janish flew out to right. Leake singles up the middle.

[Cedric]

True. However, right now...Volquez is a THROWER. Leake is a PITCHER. He doesn't have the overpowering stuff to blow a hitter away. He's got to outsmart a hitter. Totally different styles, but BOTH can be equally effective.

How is Leake a genius pitcher? He changes speeds nicely and that's about it. Otherwise he takes no time working fast and throwing sinkers down the middle.

This isn't brain surgery here. Mike Leake isn't Jamie Moyer out there.

[REDREAD]

Fail.

Love to hear this argument.

I didn't mean IQ.
I meant pitching intelligence. In other words.. "knows how to pitch vs throw".

How about you tell me why you think Volquez is better than Arroyo or Cueto..
I'd love to hear that argument.

[reds44]

True. However, right now...Volquez is a THROWER. Leake is a PITCHER. He doesn't have the overpowering stuff to blow a hitter away. He's got to outsmart a hitter. Totally different styles, but BOTH can be equally effective.
This isn't true either.

Volquez knows what he's trying to do when he goes out and pitches. Just because he's struggled with his command early in games doesn't mean he's dumb.

[_Sir_Charles_]

How is Leake a genius pitcher? He changes speeds nicely and that's about it. Otherwise he takes no time working fast and throwing sinkers down the middle.

This isn't brain surgery here. Mike Leake isn't Jamie Moyer out there.

Ummm...did I say he was? He changes speeds nicely, and really moves the ball around the zone. No, he does NOT throw sinkers down the middle only. If he's doing that...he's VERY off his game.

[reds44]

Hey the Reds showed up again!

[_Sir_Charles_]

:jump: Stubby! 2 run shot!

[OesterPoster]

Great American Small Park home run there by Stubby.

[WebScorpion]

:jump: Stubby! 2 run shot!
I think that one scraped some yellow off the right field wall on the way out. :D But they all count the same. Stubby is hot again too! :clap:

[REDREAD]

.

Volquez knows what he's trying to do when he goes out and pitches. Just because he's struggled with his command early in games doesn't mean he's dumb.

Ok, he may know what he wants to do, but he can't execute it successfully.. that's why Volquez is our #4-6 starter right now.

[reds44]

Ok, he may know what he wants to do, but he can't execute it successfully.. that's why Volquez is our #4-6 starter right now.
I've argued this too much already. Think what you want.

[REDREAD]

I've argued this too much already. Think what you want.

Ok whatever, but I explained my position when you challenged it.
You make a claim that Volquez is our second best pitcher, and don't tell us why.

[_Sir_Charles_]

This isn't true either.

Volquez knows what he's trying to do when he goes out and pitches. Just because he's struggled with his command early in games doesn't mean he's dumb.

Oh my god. You guys are just TRYING to put words in my mouth. I've never said Edinson was dumb or stupid. But watch him pitch...he throws it up there and most times it looks like even HE has no clue where it's going to go. He tries to overpower the hitters. He's not moving the ball all over the zone trying to trick the hitters. He'll blast it past them or try to make them look silly with his wicked change up.

My point is that there is a difference between a THROWER and a PITCHER. Right now, Volquez is in that first group. Bronson's in the second...and Leake is working to become a "pitcher" but he's still very young and needs more experience. Volquez already HAS the experience but has yet to really put it together for a long period of time. He still has problems regularly with control and pitchcounts...and for a "thrower" that's a very bad combination.

[reds44]

Oh my god. You guys are just TRYING to put words in my mouth. I've never said Edinson was dumb or stupid. But watch him pitch...he throws it up there and most times it looks like even HE has no clue where it's going to go. He tries to overpower the hitters. He's not moving the ball all over the zone trying to trick the hitters. He'll blast it past them or try to make them look silly with his wicked change up.

My point is that there is a difference between a THROWER and a PITCHER. Right now, Volquez is in that first group. Bronson's in the second...and Leake is working to become a "pitcher" but he's still very young and needs more experience. Volquez already HAS the experience but has yet to really put it together for a long period of time. He still has problems regularly with control and pitchcounts...and for a "thrower" that's a very bad combination.
You really think Volquez just throws it up there as hard as he can and hopes people don't hit it? That's what you think he does?

[WebScorpion]

Meanwhile, Mike Leake goes out to pitch the 6th at 92 pitches.

oh yeah, with a 7 run lead. :D

[_Sir_Charles_]

You really think Volquez just throws it up there as hard as he can and hopes people don't hit it? That's what you think he does?

When you can't throw it where you're aiming at...yeah. Don't look at where the ball goes in the zone...watch the mitt. He rarely EVER hits the mitt.

[Cedric]

Oh my god. You guys are just TRYING to put words in my mouth. I've never said Edinson was dumb or stupid. But watch him pitch...he throws it up there and most times it looks like even HE has no clue where it's going to go. He tries to overpower the hitters. He's not moving the ball all over the zone trying to trick the hitters. He'll blast it past them or try to make them look silly with his wicked change up.

My point is that there is a difference between a THROWER and a PITCHER. Right now, Volquez is in that first group. Bronson's in the second...and Leake is working to become a "pitcher" but he's still very young and needs more experience. Volquez already HAS the experience but has yet to really put it together for a long period of time. He still has problems regularly with control and pitchcounts...and for a "thrower" that's a very bad combination.


I disagree completely. You don't think Edinson knows how to set up hitters? You do realize it's much harder to strike people out than do what Leake does to get outs right?

Just because a guy is wild doesn't mean it's because he's not a smart pitcher. It's about mechanics 99% of the time with Edinson. He is known as a VERY smart pitcher. I have no idea where you got this idea he was a thrower.

[_Sir_Charles_]

Walker grounded out to Cairo.

Alvarez singles to left.

[_Sir_Charles_]

Yessirree! 4-6-3 to end the inning.

[reds44]

When you can't throw it where you're aiming at...yeah. Don't look at where the ball goes in the zone...watch the mitt. He rarely EVER hits the mitt.
Sigh...just because you don't have great control doesn't make you a "thrower" or "less intelligent."

And I haven't even mentioned the fact that Volquez is still coming back from TJ...but whatever.

Go Reds!

[WebScorpion]

Yessirree! 4-6-3 to end the inning. Not bad for a bench player. ;) Leake finishes the inning with an even 100 pitches.

[TheBurn]

6.0 ip, 4 h, 2 er, 4 bb, 6 so

[GAC]

True. However, right now...Volquez is a THROWER. Leake is a PITCHER. He doesn't have the overpowering stuff to blow a hitter away. He's got to outsmart a hitter. Totally different styles, but BOTH can be equally effective.

I think some are being too hard on Leake. This kid has had zero time in the minors, and definitely needs more seasoning. But taking that into consideration, and what he has done at the ML level, I think he can be a solid #4 or #5 in the rotation.

[Captain Hook]

So in Leake's and Volquez's most recent starts they both went 6 ip and gave up 2 runs.I'm sure that in both game threads for those games the two Reds pitchers were on multiple occasions called terrible or something to that extent.Nice.

[reds44]

I think some are being too hard on Leake. This kid has had zero time in the minors, and definitely needs more seasoning. But taking that into consideration, and what he has done at the ML level, I think he can be a solid #4 or #5 in the rotation.
I like Leake. Part of me likes him more than Homer.

[GAC]

So did Leake give us a QS today or not? ;)

[_Sir_Charles_]

I disagree completely. You don't think Edinson knows how to set up hitters? You do realize it's much harder to strike people out than do what Leake does to get outs right?

Just because a guy is wild doesn't mean it's because he's not a smart pitcher. It's about mechanics 99% of the time with Edinson. He is known as a VERY smart pitcher. I have no idea where you got this idea he was a thrower.

Yes, he knows how to set up a hitter. Change of speeds. Absolutely. Never said he didn't. Also never said he's not a smart pitcher. What I'm saying is that he relies heavily on his velocity. He falls back on it. He hurls it towards the catcher and relies on his velocity and movement to get hitters to swing and miss his fastball. He doesn't know where it's going to go. He's NOT a finesse pitcher. He's a power pitcher. A power pitcher with VERY limited control. In my book, that makes him a "thrower".

[GAC]

I think Volquez' problem is he's very emotional, and allows it to get him out of sync early on.

[Cedric]

I think Volquez' problem is he's very emotional, and allows it to get him out of sync early on.

It sure looks that way. Hopefully tomorrow starts a change.

[reds44]

Joesph.

[_Sir_Charles_]

Sigh...just because you don't have great control doesn't make you a "thrower" or "less intelligent."

And I haven't even mentioned the fact that Volquez is still coming back from TJ...but whatever.

Go Reds!

As I said before, I never questioned his intelligence. As for the tommy john surgury...doesn't apply here. He never had control BEFORE the surgury.

[GAC]

Just the sound off Votto's bat made me think it was gone! LOL

[_Sir_Charles_]

Joe Beimel on the bump for the Pirates. Votto drives one to the deepest part of the park...high off the wall. 3 bagger.

[Tornon]

That one's not staying in

[reds44]

As I said before, I never questioned his intelligence. As for the tommy john surgury...doesn't apply here. He never had control BEFORE the surgury.
I didn't say you did. Somebody in here did though.

And yes it does. It has everything to do with Volquez right now.

[GAC]

Gomes Hr

[_Sir_Charles_]

BOOM! :jump: And the bats come alive! Gomes! 11-2 Redlegs!

[reds44]

Batting practice has broken out.

[Matt700wlw]

Is it possible that last year was just the beginning of what Joey Votto can be??

[Cedric]

I'm loving this new approach from Gomes. Had a chance to swing at a borderline pitch and waited until he got a pitch to hammer.

[Matt700wlw]

I'm Jonny Gomes....I walk, I hit, and I crush you.

[RedsBaron]

Fun game to watch!

[OesterPoster]

I think this is probably a pretty good situation for Masset to pitch, right?

[mth123]

I think the command perception can be really skewed. Volquez is a hard thrower, so we expect command problems and it reinforces that when we see it. Leake is more of a control guy so we don't see the command problems when he's wild in the zone and throwing fat ones up there.

I submit that Leake's FB/GB ratio in June, July and August of 2010 are as much evidence of poor command as Volquez BB/9 might be. Leake's bread and butter is his ability to induce ground balls. Yet in thoe three months after the league caught on to him, he induced 125 GB and 135 FB with 50 line drives added to the mix. Those numbers for a guy like Leake are the definition of poor command.

Those numbers started in June. That is not fatigue. Its something else. And if it is fatigue, then he needs a lot more time in the minors building innings from season to season.

[GAC]

I think this lead may be safe for either Masset or Coco. LOL

[reds44]

I'm loving this new approach from Gomes. Had a chance to swing at a borderline pitch and waited until he got a pitch to hammer.
He's gonna get himself paid in the offseason by somebody if he keeps this up.

[mth123]

Meanwhile. The Reds continue to explode.

[WebScorpion]

Joe Beimel on the bump for the Pirates. Votto drives one to the deepest part of the park...high off the wall. 3 bagger.McCutcheon is no Drew Stubbs out there... he should have had that.

[_Sir_Charles_]

And yes it does. It has everything to do with Volquez right now.

How?!? He didn't have control of the zone before the surgery...he doesn't have it after the surgery....is it possible he'll learn it later in his career? Sure. But it doesn't look like he will currently.

[Tom Servo]

http://l.yimg.com/a/i/us/sp/v/mlb/players_l/20080402/6664.jpg?x=65&y=85&xc=1&yc=1&wc=164&hc=215&q=100&sig=fOAY_VtupwGZWtxvGPYFZQ--

no wonder Beimel looks so beat down

[RedsBaron]

I think this lead may be safe for either Masset or Coco. LOL

Now let's not get carried away.....;)

[_Sir_Charles_]

Bruce K's for the 1st out of the inning.

[OesterPoster]

Enough already. Can you guys just enjoy the game and end the Leake vs. Volquez argument?

[reds44]

How?!? He didn't have control of the zone before the surgery...he doesn't have it after the surgery....is it possible he'll learn it later in his career? Sure. But it doesn't look like he will currently.
He's walking over 5 guys a game since he came back. He didn't even do that in Texas.

[WebScorpion]

Enough already. Can you guys just enjoy the game and end the Leake vs. Volquez argument?
Yes, please.

Gomes homered again and the reds are leading 11-2. :beerme:

[GAC]

Enough already. Can you guys just enjoy the game and end the Leake vs. Volquez argument?

Amen to that. LOL

[_Sir_Charles_]

Enough already. Can you guys just enjoy the game and end the Leake vs. Volquez argument?

I was just about to say the same thing. My appologies guys. I'm out. Back to the Pirate beat-down. :O)

[_Sir_Charles_]

Juan K's. 2 down.

[mth123]

Enough already. Can you guys just enjoy the game and end the Leake vs. Volquez argument?

Who says I'm not enjoying the game?

[_Sir_Charles_]

Razor with a single, double, and a dinger. The odds of a triple from Ramon....VERY long.

[WebScorpion]

Juan K's. 2 down.What are his splits like? He looks really bad against a lefty.

[reds44]

Ramon needs a triple for the cycle.

[GAC]

What is Leake's pitch count?

[_Sir_Charles_]

Hernandez grounds out to short to end the inning. But we tack on a couple more. 11-2 Reds

[_Sir_Charles_]

What is Leake's pitch count?

102. He's got a pretty easy motion though, he might be able to go another inning. The pen could use the break.

[Homer Bailey]

I like Leake. Part of me likes him more than Homer.

I'm sitting right here.

[GAC]

102

He needs to be out of there with this type of lead

[WebScorpion]

Dang. I didn't know the Bats were playing this early...I was going to watch Cueto pitch. (My first foray into MiLB.TV) Oh well, Cueto throws 55 pitches, 32 for strikes, 4 Ks, 2 BBs, 2 H, 2 R, 1 ER, in 3.1 innings.
Meanwhile, the Bats bats are silent they're being no hit thru 4 complete by lefty Rudy Owens.

[GAC]

Jordan Smith in now

[reds44]

I'm sitting right here.
I like anybody more than you lol.

[_Sir_Charles_]

Cairo over to 1st, Renteria at 2nd. Smith on the bump.

Jones singles to right to start the 7th

[WebScorpion]

I like anybody more than you lol.
Come on... Chris Carpenter?? :confused:

[reds44]

Come on... Chris Carpenter?? :confused:
Nope, he's a miserable human being lol

[_Sir_Charles_]

He needs to be out of there with this type of lead

I was on the fence. On one side, the pen needs a break, on the other...he's young and no need to push him with a big lead. Oh well, moot point now. :O)

[_Sir_Charles_]

Cedeno grounds out to third, Jones to 2nd.

Bowker (Ph) flies out to Stubbs. 2 down.

[_Sir_Charles_]

McCutchen draws the free pass. 1st & 2nd for Tabata

[_Sir_Charles_]

Tabata grounds out to second. 11-2 Reds middle of 7th.

[WebScorpion]

I was on the fence. On one side, the pen needs a break, on the other...he's young and no need to push him with a big lead. Oh well, moot point now. :O)
Most of the 'pen has had 2 days off. Maloney and Ondrusek are the only exceptions.

[GOYA]

Cueto went 3.1 innnings - 55 pitches, 32 strikes

2 hits, 2 runs, 1 earned, 2 walks and 4 Ks

[_Sir_Charles_]

Most of the 'pen has had 2 days off. Maloney and Ondrusek are the only exceptions.

True. I was just thinking of recently. Maloney did the "pen saving" yesterday.

Chris Resop on the hill for the Pirates.

[_Sir_Charles_]

Janish grounds back up the middle. Walker snags it. 1 down.

[_Sir_Charles_]

3 pitch K of Renteria. 2 down for Stubbs.

[_Sir_Charles_]

Cueto went 3.1 innnings - 55 pitches, 32 strikes

2 hits, 2 runs, 1 earned, 2 walks and 4 Ks

Not too shabby. When does Homer go? Tomorrow?

[_Sir_Charles_]

Drew works the walk. Cairo grounds out to short to end the inning.

[GOYA]

Not too shabby. When does Homer go? Tomorrow?

Yes, I believe he is scheduled for tomorrow.

[WebScorpion]

Not too shabby. When does Homer go? Tomorrow?Yes, Homer pitches tomorrow. I wonder if his pitch count will be higher since he was further along when they shut him down...