Reds at Cubs 5/7/11 Game Thread

[Reds Fanatic]

Reds Lineup:

Drew Stubbs CF
Edgar Renteria SS
Joey Votto 1B
Brandon Phillips 2B
Jay Bruce RF
Chris Heisey LF
Ryan Hanigan C
Chris Valakia 3B
Bronson Arroyo P

[JaxRed]

Glad to see Gomes hit the bench with a righty, but wonder why it's Heisey and not Lewis.

[Tony Cloninger]

I don't think Baker digs Lewis too much. Now he is the guy we wonder why he is not starting.

[reds44]

I'm in the front row in left center in a red division champs t shirt over a red hoodie. LeCure just threw me a ball in BP. look for me lol.

[traderumor]

I'd rather see Heisey than Lewis, want to see what Heisey can do with some regular playing time. Plus, if you look at a full season, Heisey was tougher against righties than lefties in 2010. Lewis replaces Hermida as a lefty off the bench and spot starter. I would prefer he not take away PT from Heisey.

[traderumor]

I'm in the front row in left center in a red division champs t shirt over a red hoodie. LeCure just threw me a ball in BP. look for me lol.How's the weather looking?

[RBA]

Supposedly my local Fox Affiliate (San Diego) is showing Reds@Cubs today. That's what my directv guide says. I give it about 30 percent chance of being right.

[Reds Fanatic]

How's the weather looking?

Supposed to be just a 30% chance of rain today. So they should get the game in without a problem

[Caveat Emperor]

I'm in the front row in left center in a red division champs t shirt over a red hoodie. LeCure just threw me a ball in BP. look for me lol.

The last time I was at Wrigley Field, I was down on the grass for a Dave Matthews concert and had a cop threaten to arrest me for touching the ivy.

[oneupper]

Supposedly my local Fox Affiliate (San Diego) is showing Reds@Cubs today. That's what my directv guide says. I give it about 30 percent chance of being right.

Lucky You. I'm getting Twins v Red Sox. I guess we don't get enough Red Sox on ESPN.
:thumbdown:

[Reds Fanatic]

4 pitch walk to Stubbs.

[Reds Fanatic]

Stubbs steals 2nd. His 11th steal this year.

[Reds Fanatic]

Renteria strikes out looking.

[Homer Bailey]

Was supposed to go, but my buddy (Fil3232) was too hungover. 44, please don't kill me.

[Reds Fanatic]

Votto strikes out swinging. 2 outs.

[Reds Fanatic]

Phillips flies out to right. 0-0 mid 1st.

[RBA]

Supposedly my local Fox Affiliate (San Diego) is showing Reds@Cubs today. That's what my directv guide says. I give it about 30 percent chance of being right.

It's correct. Game is on in San Diego.

[JaxRed]

Seeing the Rays in Jax. :(

[Reds Fanatic]

Fukodome singles to right center.

[Reds Fanatic]

Barney grounds out 6-4-3 they tried for the DP but the runner was going and is safe at 2nd.

[Reds Fanatic]

Byrd grounds out to short. 2 outs.

[Reds Fanatic]

Ramirez grounds out to short. 0-0 after 1.

[11larkin11]

Facing the Cubs w/o Starlin and Alfonso? Bronson, you should be able to mow through these guys.

[Reds Fanatic]

Bruce strikes out looking.

[Reds Fanatic]

Heisey grounds out to 2nd. 2 outs.

[Reds Fanatic]

Hanigan lines a single to left.

[Reds Fanatic]

Valaika flies out to right. 0-0 mid 2nd.

[Reds Fanatic]

Pena grounds out to 1st. 1 out.

[Reds Fanatic]

Soto walks.

[Reds Fanatic]

DeWitt flies out to center. 2 outs.

[Reds Fanatic]

Colvin flies out to left. 0-0 after 2.

[Reds Fanatic]

Good Ab by Arroyo as he keeps fouling off pitches.

Arroyo singles to center. 9 pitch AB.

[RedsManRick]

Great at bat by Arroyo. 9 pitches and a solid single to right.

[RedsManRick]

And Stubbs with an easy fly out the first pitch.

[Reds Fanatic]

Arroyo's AB is followed by Stubbs flying out to right on the first pitch

[Caveat Emperor]

Great at bat by Arroyo. 9 pitches and a solid single to right.

Waste about 10% of a dude's pitches and get a base hit? Pretty much the best AB you can ever expect from a pitcher.

[Reds Fanatic]

Renteria singles to center. 1st and 2nd.

[RedsManRick]

This Coleman kid has some real mediocre stuff. 90 mph fastball with just a little tail, ok change and a decent tight curve. We should tee off on him today.

And by 'we', I mean not Votto apparently. Maybe that change moves a bit more than I thought...

[Reds Fanatic]

Votto strikes out swinging. 4 Ks by Coleman.

[Caveat Emperor]

Votto being dominated by a mediocre RHP -- kind of an odd thing to see.

[Reds Fanatic]

Phillips hit by the pitch. Bases loaded for Bruce.

[Reds Fanatic]

Bruce grounds into a 4-6 FC. 0-0 mid 3rd.

[RedsManRick]

Bruce watches a fastball in his wheelhouse (that gets called a ball) and then chases the outside change up and rolls it to 2B.

[Caveat Emperor]

Lot of missed opportunities in this game against a guy that you simply have to hit hard.

[Reds Fanatic]

Coleman with a soft line out to short. 1 out.

[Gallen5862]

Thanks for the pbp. I am getting the Rays game on fox.

[Homer Bailey]

My goodness Bronson got squeezed on that at bat.

[Reds Fanatic]

Fukodome walks.

[RedsManRick]

Geez, Arroyo walks Fukudome on a 1-4 count. This ump is calling nothing down and in to lefties -- big blind spot.

[Reds Fanatic]

Barney grounds into a 5-4 FC. 2 outs.

[Caveat Emperor]

Darwin Barney's name bothers me tremendously.

[Reds Fanatic]

Byrd lines a single that hit knocked Arroyo's glove right off his hand.

[Homer Bailey]

Bronson absolutely can not buy a call.

[Reds Fanatic]

Ramirez flies out to center. 0-0 after 3.

Through 3 innings: Reds have left 5 runners on base, Cubs have left 4 runners on base

[Captain Hook]

Reds and Cubs putting on a clinic on what not to do wrisp

[Reds Fanatic]

Heisey pops out to short.

[Caveat Emperor]

Bronson absolutely can not buy a call.

Which, really, is death to a pitcher like Arroyo who needs to live on the corners and change speeds to be effective.

If he's getting squeezed and needs to come closer to the plate, it can start to get ugly.

[Reds Fanatic]

Hanigan flies out to the track in left. Tough to get a ball out today with the wind blowing in.

[Reds Fanatic]

Valaika grounds back to Coleman. A 7 pitch inning. 0-0 mid 4th.

[Reds Fanatic]

Light rain falling at the park

[Reds Fanatic]

Bunt single by Pena

[Reds Fanatic]

Soto grounds into a 5-4-3 DP. 2 outs.

[Reds Fanatic]

DeWitt homers to right. 1-0 Cubs.

[Matt700wlw]

That one hung...and it was smacked.

[WebScorpion]

DeWitt homers to right. 1-0 Cubs.Man, that DP looks even better now if that's possible. ;)

[Caveat Emperor]

Eh -- you're going to get that with Arroyo. As long as they're solo shots, I really don't sweat it.

[Reds Fanatic]

Colvin strikes out swinging. 1-0 Cubs after 4.

[Homer Bailey]

I'm ready to see some offense.

[Matt700wlw]

The pitcher had to fool the pitcher.

[Reds Fanatic]

Arroyo strikes out swinging. 1 out. 5 Ks by Coleman.

[Matt700wlw]

Wow. Nice grab

[Reds Fanatic]

Stubbs is robbed by Ramirez on a hard hit line drive.

[Reds Fanatic]

Renteria fouls out to 1st. 1-0 Cubs mid 5th.

[Caveat Emperor]

Watching this guy, I can't believe he's mowing through the lineup like this. He looks incredibly hittable.

[Matt700wlw]

AC265102 - After Championship: 2 since a division, 65 since a pennant, 102 since a World Series

[Reds Fanatic]

Coleman strikes out swinging. 2 Ks by Arroyo.

[Reds Fanatic]

Fukodome doubles to left center.

[Reds Fanatic]

Barney fouls out to Hanigan. 2 outs.

[Reds Fanatic]

Byrd with a soft line in foul territory to 3rd. 1-0 Cubs after 5.

[Caveat Emperor]

Marty and Jim talking about watching a Lady Gaga concert on TV -- brings a tear to my eye as I remember one of the greatest exchanges between Marty & Joe when they discussed rapper 50 Cent coming to Cincinnati for a concert.

At one point, Marty asked Joe if he was a "Wanksta."

[mth123]

OK. Coleman pushing 80 pitches and the big boys coming up. Time for the Reds to take control of this game.

[Reds Fanatic]

4 pitch walk to Votto.

[mth123]

ugh!

[Reds Fanatic]

Phillips grounds into a 6-4-3 DP.

[Reds Fanatic]

Bruce strikes out looking. Now 6 Ks by Coleman. 1-0 Cubs mid 6th.

[Caveat Emperor]

Being a Reds fan seems to include being destined to watch lots of mediocre pitchers look like Cy Young for a day.

[CTA513]

Cy Coldham

[mth123]

Being a Reds fan seems to include being destined to watch lots of mediocre pitchers look like Cy Young for a day.

Seems like it is especially true with the Cubs. I remember watching guys like Jeff Pico and Les Lancaster do the same thing to the Reds.

[757690]

Seems like it is especially true with the Cubs. I remember watching guys like Jeff Pico and Les Lancaster do the same thing to the Reds.

Don't forget Shaun Boskie and Drew Hall.

[Reds Fanatic]

Ramirez with a soft line out to short. 1 out.

[Reds Fanatic]

What an effort by Phillips but an infield hit by Pena.

[CTA513]

Renteria probably had the best shot at getting Pena.

[mth123]

Don't forget Shaun Boskie and Drew Hall.

I remember Boskie doing it a couple of times.

[mth123]

Nice. Runs please.

[Reds Fanatic]

DP. Soto strikes out swinging and Hanigan throws out Pena attempting to steal. 1-0 Cubs after 6.

[cincyinco]

Cubs 1 for 11 with runners on..

[Reds Fanatic]

Wood warming up for the Cubs
Chapman warming up for the Reds

[Reds Fanatic]

Heisey with a leadoff walk

[Reds Fanatic]

Hanigan with a bloop single to right. 1st and 3rd.

[mth123]

Now we're cookin'

[Reds Fanatic]

Wood coming in to pitch

[Reds Fanatic]

Lewis pinch hitting for Valaika

[Caveat Emperor]

Need to bring that runner in from 3rd to at least get the game tied up.

[mth123]

Need to bring that runner in from 3rd to at least get the game tied up.

Done

[Homer Bailey]

I'll take that.

[Reds Fanatic]

Lewis grounds into a 6-4 FC. Tie game 1-1.

[Homer Bailey]

I don't understand this move. Arroyo staying in to bunt.

[mth123]

I don't understand this move. Arroyo staying in to bunt.

I hope he's staying in to pitch.

[Reds Fanatic]

Arroyo is only at 80 pitches so I am sure he will stay in

[Homer Bailey]

I hope he's staying in to pitch.

Oh wow, I didn't realize he had only thrown 80 pitches. Complaint withdrawn.

[mth123]

Oh wow, I didn't realize he had only thrown 80 pitches. Complaint withdrawn.

Even if he was at 110, I'd rather have him out there right now.

[Reds Fanatic]

Good bunt by Arroyo. DeWitt saved an error at 1st. Lewis at 2nd with 2 outs.

[mth123]

Need a big hit here.

[Big Klu]

Need a big hit here.

As you wish.

[Reds Fanatic]

Big hit. Stubbs singles to center. 2-1 Reds!

[Caveat Emperor]

Big hit. Stubbs singles to center. 2-1 Reds!

I'm listening on MLB At Bat on about a 30 second delay. This qualifies as a spoiler. ;)

[Reds Fanatic]

Renteria strikes out swinging. 2-1 Reds mid 7th.

[Reds Fanatic]

Cairo is in to play 3rd.

[Reds Fanatic]

DeWitt grounds out to short. 1 out.

[Reds Fanatic]

Chapman warming up again

[Big Klu]

Cairo is in to play 3rd.

Two things:

1. Cairo's knee must be OK enough to play.

2. Janish's ankle must really be barking at him.

[Reds Fanatic]

Colvin grounds out to 1st. 2 out.

[Caveat Emperor]

Two things:

1. Cairo's knee must be OK enough to play.

2. Janish's ankle must really be barking at him.

Said on the broadcast during @johnfayman segment that Janish's description of the injury was that it "felt like it had a heartbeat" when he awoke in the middle of the night in pain.

[Reds Fanatic]

Johnson pinch hits and grounds out to short. 2-1 Reds. 91 pitches by Arroyo through 7.

[Big Klu]

If Bronson feels good, I let him answer the bell in the eighth.

[Caveat Emperor]

I'd give Bronson another inning. A full day off for the bullpen (minus Cordero) would be a great thing given the way they've been worked this season.

[Caveat Emperor]

Having said that, it'd be really nice to get 1 more run here in this inning to give some margin of error for the remainder of the game.

[OesterPoster]

What's funny is that Dusty joked with Marty in their pregame show that he'd take a complete game shutout from Bronson today to save the bullpen. Awfully darn close to that coming true. *fingers crossed*

[Reds Fanatic]

James Russell in to pitch

[Big Klu]

Said on the broadcast during @johnfayman segment that Janish's description of the injury was that it "felt like it had a heartbeat" when he awoke in the middle of the night in pain.

I heard during the pregame show that they were trying a different wrap and brace on Cairo's knee, so maybe he has more support now.

[mth123]

If Bronson feels good, I let him answer the bell in the eighth.

Leave him in.

[Reds Fanatic]

Votto draws a leadoff walk

[Reds Fanatic]

Phillips flies out to left.

[Reds Fanatic]

Bruce pops out to short. 2 outs.

[Homer Bailey]

Please go other way with that Jay.

[Reds Fanatic]

Mateo in to pitch

[Reds Fanatic]

Heisey pops out to 2nd. 2-1 Reds mid 8th.

[757690]

In "ask Marty" Marty said the biggest Reds prospect bust he can remember was Kurt Stillwell. Considering he had a decent MLB career, and the Reds got Danny Jackson for him, I would think that there has to be a better answer.

Brandon Larson? Wily Mo Pena? Willie Greene? Scott Scudder?

[Reds Fanatic]

Fukodome grounds out to 1st. 1 out.

[Reds Fanatic]

Barney singles to left.

[Reds Fanatic]

Ondrusek in to pitch

[Caveat Emperor]

Barney singles to left.

Yeah, but at the end of the day, he is always forced to introduce himself to girls as Darwin Barney.

[Reds Fanatic]

Good start by Arroyo: 7.1 IP, 7 H, 1ER, 2BB, 3 K.

[757690]

Yeah, but at the end of the day, he is always forced to introduce himself to girls as Darwin Barney.

He's an MLB player. Meeting girls is not a problem with him.

[Caveat Emperor]

He's an MLB player. Meeting girls is not a problem with him.

Being a Cub barely qualifies as being a major league ballplayer.

[mth123]

In "ask Marty" Marty said the biggest Reds prospect bust he can remember was Kurt Stillwell. Considering he had a decent MLB career, and the Reds got Danny Jackson for him, I would think that there has to be a better answer.

Brandon Larson? Wily Mo Pena? Willie Greene? Scott Scudder?

Oops. Missed the word Bust in this post. Reading is fundamental.

[Reds Fanatic]

Byrd strikes out swinging. 2 outs.

[mth123]

In "ask Marty" Marty said the biggest Reds prospect bust he can remember was Kurt Stillwell. Considering he had a decent MLB career, and the Reds got Danny Jackson for him, I would think that there has to be a better answer.

Brandon Larson? Wily Mo Pena? Willie Greene? Scott Scudder?

Now that I've read this correctly, I'd vote for Paul Householder.

[Matt700wlw]

Zombies is a good description of Cubs fans, Thom.

[Reds Fanatic]

Good job by Ondrusek. Ramirez strikes out swinging. 2-1 Reds after 8.

[Caveat Emperor]

Good job by Ondrusek. Ramirez strikes out swinging. 2-1 Reds after 8.

Ondrusek has come a long, long way since opening day last year.

[Reds Fanatic]

Hanigan grounds out to 3rd. 1 out.

[757690]

Being a Cub barely qualifies as being a major league ballplayer.

Lol

[Reds Fanatic]

Cairo grounds out to 2nd. 2 outs.

[Reds Fanatic]

Gomes hitting for Ondrusek

[Reds Fanatic]

Gomes strikes out swinging. 2-1 Reds mid 9th.

[Reds Fanatic]

Cordero coming in to pitch.

Due up: Pena, Soto and DeWitt

[mth123]

ugh!!!

[Reds Fanatic]

Crap. Tie game as Pena homers to right.

[Matt700wlw]

That didn't take long, Coco.

[mth123]

He put that one on a tee for him.

[Caveat Emperor]

Wish he would have bunted.

So much for a day of rest for the bullpen.

[Reds Fanatic]

Soto grounds out to 2nd. 1 out.

[jojo]

The location on that fast ball was BS....

[Reds Fanatic]

DeWitt lines a single to center.

[Caveat Emperor]

Really, though, it's a poor effort on behalf of Arroyo that the offense could only squeeze out two runs against a fringe #4/#5 guy.

[WVRedsFan]

Ugh. Our mulit-million dollar closer fails for the first time in 2011. Surprised it took so long.

[CTA513]

3 hits for a guy hitting under .200

[WVRedsFan]

This might get ugly.

[mth123]

Ugh. Our mulit-million dollar closer fails for the first time in 2011. Surprised it took so long.

If the Reds lose this one, its on the offense.

[Reds Fanatic]

Chapman warming up for the 3rd time today

[Caveat Emperor]

I think the Reds are down to Hernandez on the bench (assuming Janish and Rolen are unavailable to play) if this game goes into extras.

[Reds Fanatic]

Colvin strikes out swinging. 2 outs.

[mth123]

I think the Reds are down to Hernandez on the bench (assuming Janish and Rolen are unavailable to play) if this game goes into extras.

Might see Leake pitching and hitting today.

[Reds Fanatic]

Jeff Baker pinch hitting

[WVRedsFan]

If the Reds lose this one, its on the offense.

True, but isn't it CoCo's job to preserve the win?

[Caveat Emperor]

Might see Leake pitching and hitting today.

I'm OK with 50% of this statement.

[mth123]

True, but isn't it CoCo's job to preserve the win?

Sure. It was a crummy pitch.

[Reds Fanatic]

I think the Reds are down to Hernandez on the bench (assuming Janish and Rolen are unavailable to play) if this game goes into extras.

Cubs are in a lot better shape if this game goes extra innings with Castro, Soriano and Hill on their bench

[jojo]

I think the Reds are down to Hernandez on the bench (assuming Janish and Rolen are unavailable to play) if this game goes into extras.

What's the cubs saving their bench for?

[Matt700wlw]

Saved by the ground rule double.

Quit booing you idiots.

[Reds Fanatic]

Reds just caught a break. Stubbs could not find the ball. The ball bounces and goes over the wall ground rule double.

[mth123]

Stubbs should have caught that one IMO.

[RedsManRick]

Yikes. Stubbs' has had some issues going back on the ball this year. Keeps getting turned around.

[jojo]

Stubbs was gloriously horrible on Baker's ball....

[WVRedsFan]

The day Cordero leaves I will be much happier

[Reds Fanatic]

Cubs manager arguing that Stubbs touched the ball but he is wrong

[CTA513]

Stubbs must be practicing with Gomes.

[Homer Bailey]

That was pretty poor from Stubbs.

[LvJ]

I hate the idea of closers. Gah!

[Caveat Emperor]

It's nice to see bad old Cordero again -- like seeing an old friend for the first time in a while.

[Homer Bailey]

I'm not giving Kosuke much here.

[Blitz Dorsey]

Stubbs has turned into a baller ... but he's still shaky on any fly ball near the wall. That should have been caught.

[Reds Fanatic]

2-2 count on Fukodome

[RBA]

Cordero going for the cycle?

[RedsManRick]

Game over.

[Homer Bailey]

Wow. Why pitch to him there. Reds lose.

[Blitz Dorsey]

It's nice to see bad old Cordero again -- like seeing an old friend for the first time in a while.

Except that it's not.

Game over.

[CTA513]

Cordero and Stubbs for the win.

[Matt700wlw]

Cordero's first blown save since September 12th, 2010

[Reds Fanatic]

That is it. Fukodome singles to center. Reds lose 3-2.

[jojo]

That feels like a kick in the groin.

[RedsManRick]

Wow. Why pitch to him there. Reds lose.

My thoughts exactly. Either bring in Chapman to face the lefty or walk him and face the rookie. If Coco had better control, I think Dusty would've walked him.

[Caveat Emperor]

That feels like a kick in the groin.

The kick in the groin was listening to the Reds be dominated by a fringe major league starter for 6+ innings.

This offense needs to be more consistent. Exploding for huge innings every few games then going into the tank for days at a time isn't the way to play good baseball.

[Matt700wlw]

Well, that turned out awful.

Eat it up, Cubs fans idiots.....after slugging Old Style's all day you won't remember this in the morning.

[Blitz Dorsey]

Stubbs is the worst "great" defensive player I've ever seen. I know it's windy and raining, but he does that all the time. How does he get the label of a great defender? Just because he's fast? Uh, more people need to actually watch the games.

[LvJ]

Loss belongs to 1. Stubbs. 2. Cordero. 3. Baker.

I love Stubbs. It happens. But Cordero and Baker I loaaathhe.

[WVRedsFan]

For the money he is being paid, he darn well better be automatic. Yes, he has done well here but not multiple-million good.

[Caveat Emperor]

Stubbs is the worst "great" defensive player I've ever seen. I know it's windy and raining, but he does that all the time. How does he get the label of a great defender? Just because he's fast? Uh, more people need to actually watch the games.

Wrigley field is one of the toughest places to play defense. Stubbs defensive issues are overrated by many on this board. He makes a hundred plays (yes, many near the mythical "wall") look routine, and gets plastered when he screws up one.

[cincyinco]

Awful.

[Big Klu]

Loss belongs to 1. Stubbs. 2. Cordero. 3. Baker.

I love Stubbs. It happens. But Cordero and Baker I loaaathhe.

Just asking, but what did Baker do to contribute to this loss?

[WVRedsFan]

Just asking, but what did Baker do to contribute to this loss?

Bringing in the highly overpaid Cordero?

[757690]

At least it was a team effort in the loss. :)

[Caveat Emperor]

The loss belongs to the 1-8 hitters who only squeaked out 2 runs against a thoroughly average pitcher and left the game to the fates in a 1-run contest.

You don't win many ballgames scoring 2 runs.

[Big Klu]

Bringing in the highly overpaid Cordero?

And what manager would you have who would not do exactly the same thing?

[757690]

Wow. Why pitch to him there. Reds lose.

I hate walking the bases loaded. Especially with Codero on the mound in a tie game in the 9th.

[LvJ]

Loss belongs to 1. Stubbs. 2. Cordero. 3. Baker.

I love Stubbs. It happens. But Cordero and Baker I loaaathhe.

Sticking to Cordero no matter what. Cordero sucks most of the time. Today was obviously one of those times and you could tell early on. I hate managers who stick to the "closer" just because it's the friggin' 9th. Bring in Chapman to face Fuko if nothing else.

[jmcclain19]

The loss belongs to the 1-8 hitters who only squeaked out 2 runs against a thoroughly average pitcher and left the game to the fates in a 1-run contest.

You don't win many ballgames scoring 2 runs.

Amen to that. But Cordero however still did a wonderful job earning his bloated salary today.

[WVRedsFan]

And what manager would you have who would not do exactly the same thing?

I was just asking the question. this team's problems are in the batter's box, not in the dugout IMHO.

[757690]

My thoughts exactly. Either bring in Chapman to face the lefty or walk him and face the rookie. If Coco had better control, I think Dusty would've walked him.

I would have brought in Chapman, but I'm not sure it would have had better results in the end.

[Caveat Emperor]

And, crap on Drew Stubbs all you want -- it's game over on the Pena HR if he doesn't knock the Reds 2nd run in with his base hit.

Pretty much the only Red who had a thought to deliver a clutch base hit today.

[Big Klu]

Sticking to Cordero no matter what. Cordero sucks most of the time. Today was obviously one of those times and you could tell early on. I hate managers who stick to the "closer" just because it's the friggin' 9th. Bring in Chapman to face Fuko if nothing else.

Then you hate all managers, because they all do it. Every last one of them.

[LvJ]

Then you hate all managers, because they all do it. Every last one of them. Sweet. They all suck.

[Caveat Emperor]

Bringing in the highly overpaid Cordero?

The highly overpaid Cordero, who was perfect on Save Opps this season and -- by all accounts -- pitching much better than he had in 2010?

[Homer Bailey]

Stubbs is the worst "great" defensive player I've ever seen. I know it's windy and raining, but he does that all the time. How does he get the label of a great defender? Just because he's fast? Uh, more people need to actually watch the games.

Sigh.

[_Sir_Charles_]

Sorry guys. IMO this loss is ALL on me. I had two family functions today so I missed nearly all of the game. I turned it on after the first function in the 4th inning and saw the DeWitt homer. I saw about 3 pitches then had to leave. Saw enough to witness the dinger. Then we just got back a short while ago and as soon as I turn on the TV, we're up 2-1 and Pena hits HIS dinger...and then we lose it. That's all I saw. Ugh...talk about horrible timing.

[_Sir_Charles_]

Stubbs is the worst "great" defensive player I've ever seen. I know it's windy and raining, but he does that all the time. How does he get the label of a great defender? Just because he's fast? Uh, more people need to actually watch the games.

Now, granted, I didn't see much of the game...but I'm assuming that the wind was swirling like crazy today...right? Because he got turned around every which way on that one. I'm not sure you can blame the defender on that one. But...if I'm wrong and it wasn't blowing like crazy...then it's a bad play on Stubbs.

[Matt700wlw]

poop happens. That was a big pile of it.

[WVRedsFan]

Regardless, this is one hat got away due to a free swinging offense, a expensive closer who is far from automatic, and a philosophy found throughout baseball.

[jojo]

Sigh.

Stubbs is approaching 2000 defensive innings and he hasn't emerged as a great defensive CF er. Both UZR and Dewan's think he's just a tick above average.

[Captain Hook]

Regardless, this is one hat got away due to a free swinging offense, a expensive closer who is far from automatic, and a philosophy found throughout baseball.

If there's any roll on a baseball team I wouldn't want any part of it would be the closer.Cordero does very little wrong for over a month then this game happens and he's an overpaid(not that I would argue that he's not overpaid)bum that needs replaced by a guy that has managed to walk every batter he's faced over the last week.

1-8 managed just two runs, the closer couldn't hold a one run lead and the team lost.These things happen when even the best team lose over 60 games a year.Trust me they don't forfeit any of them and this is how they go down some of the time.I don't think that anything that happened today is reason enough to change your philosophy or your closer.Let's just hope it's another month before the usual suspects have their chance to throw stones at Cordero again.

Don't get me wrong, today was a though loss and I'd like to throw something at someone but I'd prefer it to be one of those fat Cubs fans.

[traderumor]

Chapman would have been a great option to face Pena there---IF he were at this point in his career a reliable strike thrower. Unfortunately, he is not an option in that situation.

Also, Dusty doesn't manage that way, but that certainly would have improved our chances of beating the home run threat in a one run game to do what's most important--not let a game you are ahead slip away in the ninth because of defined roles. Play the match up. But, in the 9th, with the designated closer managerial style of Dusty, it is just a theory.

[757690]

Stubbs is approaching 2000 defensive innings and he hasn't emerged as a great defensive CF er. Both UZR and Dewan's think he's just a tick above average.

b-ref's 2010 dWAR leaders (Fielding Bible Winner):

Michael Bourn* 2.5
Angel Pagan# 2.1
Justin Upton 2.0
Juan Pierre* 1.7
Jose Lopez 1.7
Gerardo Parra* 1.6
Yadier Molina 1.6 (FB)
Chase Headley# 1.6
Franklin Gutierrez 1.6
Andres Torres# 1.5
Evan Longoria 1.5
Shin-Soo Choo* 1.5
Peter Bourjos 1.5
Josh Wilson 1.4
Drew Stubbs 1.4
Brendan Ryan 1.4 (FB)
Jay Bruce* 1.4
Clint Barmes 1.4

UZR/150

Drew Stubbs - +3.5

Rtot/yr -- Total Zone Total Fielding Runs Above Avg per 1,200 Inn

Drew Stubbs - +19 (career)

Those all say much more than a tick above average to me.

[Tony Cloninger]

Coleman pitching and looking like Joe Coleman of 1975-76 prior to this game......and they make him look like Joe Coleman of 1972. This offense will continue to be inconsistent with no one taking charge in LF and no Rolen.

Cordero was going to blow a game sooner or later.

[Tony Cloninger]

For the money he is being paid, he darn well better be automatic. Yes, he has done well here but not multiple-million good.

Been waiting all year to say this? I mean I know he is not automatic but yet no one is. NO one except Gagne was and we all know he had some help.

[reds44]

Meh. Cordero was due for one of those. I wasn't really mad at him. He gave up a homer. It happens to all pitchers.

Stubbs has to catch that ball. The loss is on him on the offense. Not Cordero.

[reds44]

Oh and Francisco took BP today and looked pretty good.

I would expect him to be activated or go on rehab soon.

[jojo]

b-ref's 2010 dWAR leaders (Fielding Bible Winner):

Michael Bourn* 2.5
Angel Pagan# 2.1
Justin Upton 2.0
Juan Pierre* 1.7
Jose Lopez 1.7
Gerardo Parra* 1.6
Yadier Molina 1.6 (FB)
Chase Headley# 1.6
Franklin Gutierrez 1.6
Andres Torres# 1.5
Evan Longoria 1.5
Shin-Soo Choo* 1.5
Peter Bourjos 1.5
Josh Wilson 1.4
Drew Stubbs 1.4
Brendan Ryan 1.4 (FB)
Jay Bruce* 1.4
Clint Barmes 1.4

UZR/150

Drew Stubbs - +3.5

Rtot/yr -- Total Zone Total Fielding Runs Above Avg per 1,200 Inn

Drew Stubbs - +19 (career)

Those all say much more than a tick above average to me.

A UZR/150 of +3.5 is just a tick above average. Dewan's +/- says Stubbs glove has been worth +6 runs for his career. Thats about a +3/season glove.

If that says much more than above average to you then you need to rethink your baseline. That's about .3 WAR a season.

[Patrick Bateman]

Meh. Cordero was due for one of those. I wasn't really mad at him. He gave up a homer. It happens to all pitchers.

Stubbs has to catch that ball. The loss is on him on the offense. Not Cordero.

FYI, Stubbs had the go ahead hit.

Without him, the game was already over after the Pena homer.

But ya, please continue, Drew Stubbs = cancer

[757690]

A UZR/150 of +3.5 is just a tick above average. Dewan's +/- says Stubbs glove has been worth +6 runs for his career. Thats about a +3/season glove.

If that says much more than above average to you then you need to rethink your baseline. That's about .3 WAR a season.

I guess it comes down to how one defines "tick above."

For me it means, "not meaningfully different from." I think 1/3 of a win added by your defense, when the best at your position usually add around 1 win, is meaningful.

Clearly Stubbs isn't great yet, but he has shown to be meaningfully better than average, both just by watching him, and his stats, imo.

[jojo]

I guess it comes down to how one defines "tick above."

For me it means, "not meaningfully different from." I think 1/3 of a win added by your defense, when the best at your position usually add around 1 win, is meaningful.

Clearly Stubbs isn't great yet, but he has shown to be meaningfully better than average, both just by watching him, and his stats, imo.

So far he's been roughly 3 runs better defensively over the course of a season than a neutral defender at his position. That's pretty much a tick.

A great defensive center fielder catches that ball in the 9th.

[757690]

So far he's been roughly 3 runs better defensively over the course of a season than a neutral defender at his position. That's pretty much a tick.

A great defensive center fielder catches that ball in the 9th.

Like I said, it's really just semantics. But if every starting player was just a tick above average, that would lead to 3 more wins a year for the team. That's meaningful.

And I've seen many great centerfielders botch easier plays than that one, but I agree Stubbs is not a great CF... yet. ;)

[reds44]

FYI, Stubbs had the go ahead hit.

Without him, the game was already over after the Pena homer.

But ya, please continue, Drew Stubbs = cancer
Huh? Where did I say anything close to that? I just said he had to catch the ball lol

[reds44]

I guess it comes down to how one defines "tick above."

For me it means, "not meaningfully different from." I think 1/3 of a win added by your defense, when the best at your position usually add around 1 win, is meaningful.

Clearly Stubbs isn't great yet, but he has shown to be meaningfully better than average, both just by watching him, and his stats, imo.
I think people (and I am one of these people) are disappointed with Stubbs defense because he was supposedly a gold glove CFer the day he was drafted. That is obviously not the case.

With that being said, he's not bad by any means out there, and his bat has been a lot better than most people expected.

[Patrick Bateman]

Huh? Where did I say anything close to that? I just said he had to catch the ball lol

It was supposed to be somewhat funny.

[Caveat Emperor]

A great defensive center fielder catches that ball in the 9th.

There's no such thing as an automatic out, even for a great defender.

[jojo]

There's no such thing as an automatic out, even for a great defender.

I watch a great center fielder nearly everyday in FG and he would've had that ball.

[traderumor]

I watch a great center fielder nearly everyday in FG and he would've had that ball.This is just a silly statement. Willie Mays probably would have caught it in his hip pocket. So what? If there's anywhere where good defenders are made to look like fools, it is Wrigley Field. Conjecturing whether some other defender would have gotten a ball that was likely being knuckled and moved around by the wind is so much silliness.

[lollipopcurve]

I think Stubbs is a solid centerfielder, but not elite by any means. IMO, he's too passive. I think there have been some balls that he let fall in front of him this year that could have been caught, either with a more aggressive route or a dive. But he doesn't dive, for the most part. Near the wall, he's often tentative (though not always). I do think he's made some strides in being more assertive calling off the LF or RF when needed.

I think his uber-smooth style fools folks into thinking he's making hard plays look easy.

Some contend his lack of aggressiveness is actually smart, since he's saving himself from injury. Valid point (though the shallow balls in CF don't pose nearly the same threat as balls near the wall). But at the same time it needs to be acknowledged that he does concede some hits in minimizing his injury risk.

[jojo]

This is just a silly statement. Willie Mays probably would have caught it in his hip pocket. So what? If there's anywhere where good defenders are made to look like fools, it is Wrigley Field. Conjecturing whether some other defender would have gotten a ball that was likely being knuckled and moved around by the wind is so much silliness.

This is a silly statement in the sense it ignores Stubb's body of work as a whole which was the underlying premise of this discussion about his defense.

Stubb's has not emerged as a great defender in center at this point.