7/16/11 - Reds vs Cardinals

[Reds Fanatic]

Starting Lineups:

Cardinals

1. Descalso, 3B
2. Jay, CF
3. Pujols, 1B
4. Holliday, LF
5. Berkman, RF
6. Freese, 3B
7. Molina, C
8. Carpenter, P
9. Schumaker, 2B

Reds

1. Stubbs, CF
2. Renteria, SS
3. Votto, 1B
4. Phillips, 2B
5. Bruce, RF
6. Rolen, 3B
7. Heisey, LF
8. Hanigan, C
9. Arroyo, P

[Matt700wlw]

Glad to see Heisey back in the lineup.

[Brutus]

I was surprised to see Renteria in the lineup today, given Cozart's success so far. I figured it was because Renteria probably has some success against Carpenter.

Apparently, I was dead wrong.

I see Renteria has a cool .472 OPS against him so far in 20 plate appearances.

[reds1869]

I was surprised to see Renteria in the lineup today, given Cozart's success so far.

Nothing Dusty does surprises me. He is great at handling his players and clubhouse, not so great at tactics and strategy.

[hebroncougar]

I was surprised to see Renteria in the lineup today, given Cozart's success so far. I figured it was because Renteria probably has some success against Carpenter.

Apparently, I was dead wrong.

I see Renteria has a cool .472 OPS against him so far in 20 plate appearances.

It would make too much sense. Cozart is better at the plate, and in the field, hence the confusion. Wouldn't want him to get comfortable. And we don't need all the offense and defense we can get.

[Homer Bailey]

Just wreckless to have Renteria in the lineup. Nevermind the fact that he's batting 2nd.

[Brutus]

Just wreckless to have Renteria in the lineup. Nevermind the fact that he's batting 2nd.

I don't know if I'd call it reckless, but truthfully I'm more discouraged by his being second than being in the lineup. I'd love to have seen Heisey sandwiched in between Stubbs and Votto today and see how that worked out for him.

Nonetheless, I don't get his being in there, but if history is our guide, he'll now go on to have 3 hits today. That's typically how it works when we give a lot of attention to these starts/non-starts.

[Homer Bailey]

I don't know if I'd call it reckless, but truthfully I'm more discouraged by his being second than being in the lineup. I'd love to have seen Heisey sandwiched in between Stubbs and Votto today and see how that worked out for him.

Nonetheless, I don't get his being in there, but if history is our guide, he'll now go on to have 3 hits today. That's typically how it works when we give a lot of attention to these starts/non-starts.


Baker other point was that Renteria has not started a game in eight days.

“That’s too long for anyone,” Baker said. “Edgar’s getting his stroke together.”

There’s little evidence of that in the numbers: Renteria went into Saturday 4-for-20 in the July and hitting .193 since April.

http://cincinnati.com/blogs/reds/2011/07/16/baker-explains-why-cozart-is-out/

Dustification.

[Matt700wlw]

The Cincinnati Reds are the little league of MLB....make sure everybody gets playing time.

With that, let's get a win, and secure this series!

[Brutus]

http://cincinnati.com/blogs/reds/2011/07/16/baker-explains-why-cozart-is-out/

Dustification.

I kind of agree with him on not getting swings in 8 days. That is too long for a Major League player to keep their timing and still be effective.

However, I wholly disagree with his logic of using Chris Carpenter as the icebreaker for getting back in the lineup. After all, "knowing him" well and hitting him well are two very different things. By Dusty's logic, tomorrow would have been a better day to get Renteria his cuts.

[GADawg]

i agree...woulda liked to have seen Cozart in there simply because he seems to be on a roll. Often times it seems that someone has a good game or a good couple of games and then they sit for a day or two....never got that logic

[Matt700wlw]

Dusty prefers roles over rolls.

[mbgrayson]

I don't know if I'd call it reckless, but truthfully I'm more discouraged by his being second than being in the lineup. I'd love to have seen Heisey sandwiched in between Stubbs and Votto today and see how that worked out for him.

Dude, shortstop bats second!

[Brutus]

Dude, shortstop bats second!

I know. I don't know what I was thinking.

[Red in Chicago]

Dude, shortstop bats second!

Leading off for the big red machine Cesar Geronimo, followed by Davey Concepcion...

[Red in Chicago]

Sir albert with the rally killing dp. Nice

[Brutus]

Bronson gives up a hit to Jay then gets a quick double play of Albert to end the inning on 10 pitches.

[Homer Bailey]

Fay:


RT @jasondebruer Can you confirm or deny if Mr. Carpenter has approved mound condition tonight?//No. He's going to bring in a portable mound

[kbrake]

Dusty is so smart :)

[Brutus]

Edgar doubles. Dusty with a coy look on his face as he chews the toothpick.

[Brutus]

Votto draws a walk.

1st & 2nd with one out

[Brutus]

Phillips caught looking. 2 down for Bruce.

[Brutus]

Bruce grounds out to Albert to end the inning. Another Reds' threat averted.

[Brutus]

Holliday grounds to Scotty Rolen who picks it over at third. One out

[Brutus]

Single to left for Berkman

[Brutus]

Force of Berkman at second. Two down for Yadi

[Brutus]

Another grounder induced by Arroyo. Cards go quietly in the second.

[_Sir_Charles_]

Darn. Thought Rolen had a dinger there. Crud.

[mth123]

Late to the party. Who is this Renteria guy and what happened to the one who usually watches that ball into LF?

[WebScorpion]

Both teams have the pitcher leading off the 3rd inning. Of course, with LaGenius' team that's the #8 spot, not the 9th hitter. :ughmamoru:

[Brutus]

Bronson strikes out skippy for the second out.

[WebScorpion]

Bronson strikes out skippy for the second out.He's doing something different out there...that last curveball had no spin at all on it. It was like a palmball or something. :confused:

[Homer Bailey]

I'm afraid of the Arroyo/Jay matchup.

[Brutus]

He's doing something different out there...that last curveball had no spin at all on it. It was like a palmball or something. :confused:

Perhaps his guitar finally rubbed off all the grip of his fingers lol

[Brutus]

Astros lead the first-place Pirates 1-0 in the bottom of the second

[mth123]

Huge K.

[Brutus]

Good pitching by Arroyo there.

[WebScorpion]

the first-place Pirates

:runawaycry::runaway::runawaycry::runaway:

Armaggedon is upon us! Run away! run away!

[Brutus]

Much to my surprise, Stubbs walks. Thought for certain that would result in a strikeout.

[HokieRed]

Do we run Stubbs here?

[mth123]

Do we run Stubbs here?

NO

[Homer Bailey]

GABP plays Smoke Gets In Your Eyes for Carp' at-bat. Cute.

Joe Strauss

[HokieRed]

If Edgar can get to 2-0, why not?

[kaldaniels]

Ladies and Gentleman...Chris Carpenter.

[HokieRed]

Looks like Dusty's call on Edgar was the right one.

[Brutus]

Edgar with two hits now LOL

You just knew it would happen. All the hand-wringing for naught.

[WebScorpion]

Ladies and Gentleman...Chris Carpenter.
Let the whining begin!! :lol:

[Brutus]

That's another story Chris can tell his son and his grandsons

[HokieRed]

What's he whining about?

[Red in Chicago]

Joey with a big base hit

[mth123]

Joey.Votto. Lets get him extended please.

[Brutus]

What's he whining about?

It's Carpenter. Does there need to be a reason? LOL

[Brutus]

Joey.Votto. Lets get him extended please.

If money is an object, I'll start passing the plate around.

[WebScorpion]

What's he whining about?Not sure whether he's mad about the safe call at first or Freese not charging that one fast enough... :dunno: Who knows with Priss?

[Oxilon]

Is Carpenter going to start yelling at himself now?

[Red in Chicago]

Chris screwed that one up

[Homer Bailey]

Dirty "slide" there by Votto?

[kaldaniels]

Jeff Brantley - "Who do you blame now?"

Well put Cowboy.

[Brutus]

http://www.uplolit.com/media/201108/837b4b6244b5431a3615eeb50e2589e2.jpg

[fearofpopvol1]

Seeing Carpenter look like he wants to explode is truly joyous. Now, if JB can hit a granny, my night will be complete.

[fearofpopvol1]

Spoke too soon. Oops.

[Red in Chicago]

Ugly

[Brutus]

Oy vey. The Reds still can't seem to cash in with RISP unless it's Votto up there.

[kaldaniels]

Dirty "slide" there by Votto?

Nope. Hard nosed baseball slide. And I'd say so if it were the other way around. Simply trying to breakup the DP.

[WebScorpion]

Seeing Carpenter look like he wants to explode is truly joyous. Now, if JB can hit a granny, my night will be complete.Yeah, that was the one hit you didn't want to see withthe bases juiced and one out...an easy hopper to the second base side of the SS. One of the easiest DPs in the book.
:(

[VR]

Jay Bruce with his 1,681st man left on base this year.

[edabbs44]

Jay Bruce with his 1,681st man left on base this year.

shhhh

[Red in Chicago]

Arroyo should have shushed Albert after the k:laugh:

[cincyinco]

Another bases loaded opportunity wasted.. Ugh.

[WebScorpion]

Wow...Pooholes looked foolish chasing that slider off the outside of the plate. Don't see that too often. ;)

[WebScorpion]

Holly Day walks and Burkha man lines out to Phillips who almost doubles Holly off. 2 down for Mr. Freeze.

[WebScorpion]

Manigan comes out for a chat, "Put one in his earhole and let's strike out Priss." :D

[Brutus]

*wipes forehead*

[WebScorpion]

Neck Tats flies out to Stubbs and the threat is over.

[Homer Bailey]

Jay Bruce with his 1,681st man left on base this year.


shhhh

Yeah he really needs to improve on that .994 OPS with runners in scoring position!

[Brutus]

Astros now lead first-place Pirates 3-0

[Red in Chicago]

Dumb dumb dumb dumb dumb

[WebScorpion]

They just showed a guy in the stands with a Expos hat and a Pete Rose Expos jersey! :eek:

These guys aren't sure what to do with Arroyo's slooow stuff. They ain't seen nothin' yet...71 is the slowest he's thrown so far. It's time to break out the eephus pitch. Look it up youngsters. ;)

Ugh. meanwhile Heisey demonstrates his inferior baserunning skills. 3 outs. :(

[kaldaniels]

Hey Cincy people...

How big is this Common Cents Coin shop? I can't believe a coin shop has enough income to advertise on Reds games like that.

[Brutus]

Dumb dumb dumb dumb dumb

The Reds can't seem to score with RISP right now, outside of Votto, so I like the aggressiveness with one caveat: it would have been nice to let Arroyo bat so they could get the lineup turned over.

[WebScorpion]

Oh, there it was! The 68 mph curve to begin with Carpenterina. That's sloooow.

[PuffyPig]

Oy vey. The Reds still can't seem to cash in with RISP unless it's Votto up there.

Reds' OPS RISP .770
Reds' OPS Total .737

What ever we are doing, we are doing more of it with RISP.

It's probably why we lead the NL in runs scored, even though our team OPS is 2nd (and we lead the next 3 teams by a marginal amount).

We have 35 more runs than the Brewers with virtually an identical OPS.

[Brutus]

Reds' OPS RISP .770
Reds' OPS Total .737

What ever we are doing, we are doing more of it with RISP.

It's probably why we lead the NL in runs scored, even though our team OPS is 2nd (and we lead the next 3 teams by a marginal amount).

We have 35 more runs than the Brewers with virtually an identical OPS.

The season numbers are still very much thriving from an otherworldly start to the season. In any case, they most certainly aren't doing much of it lately.

[cincyinco]

Carp doubles.. Ugh. Sometimes this team is hard to watch.

[nate]

Carpenter out at third, how will he explain getting thrown out to his son?

[WebScorpion]

Carpenter doubles and then Phillips throws him out at third on a grounder by the little cobbler. :thumbup:

[kaldaniels]

Carp doubles.. Ugh. Sometimes this team is hard to watch.

:laugh::lol::laugh::lol:

[Homer Bailey]

The season numbers are still very much thriving from an otherworldly start to the season. In any case, they most certainly aren't doing much of it lately.

Overall, for the season, the Reds have been good with RISP. Fact.

And that was his point. You don't get throw out a 5 game sample at your discretion.

[Brutus]

Overall, for the season, the Reds have been good with RISP. Fact.

And that was his point. You don't get throw out a 5 game sample at your discretion.

They were otherworldly on offense for about two weeks. Since then, the Reds' scoring has been hovering a tick above average. Fact.

Mentioning an unsustainable 2-week stretch that is skewing the average is not out of line.

[Homer Bailey]

They were otherworldly on offense for about two weeks. Since then, the Reds' scoring has been hovering a tick above average. Fact.

Mentioning an unsustainable 2-week stretch that is skewing the average is not out of line.

So then why don't you throw out their worst two weeks as well? That would skew the average as well.

[kaldaniels]

They were otherworldly on offense for about two weeks. Since then, the Reds' scoring has been hovering a tick above average. Fact.

Mentioning an unsustainable 2-week stretch that is skewing the average is not out of line.

I respectfully, and I am sincere in that, disagree completely. It all counts to me.

And if I may ask, could you elaborate on the tick above average remark?

[Homer Bailey]

Reds get screwed on a call, and Pujols homers to left. Absurd.

[Brutus]

So then why don't you throw out their worst two weeks as well? That would skew the average as well.

There hasn't been an extreme opposite like the one previously mentioned.

But logically, what the Reds have done for all but two weeks of the season is more representative of what they'd do going forward than a sample that includes a bloated amount of production.

[Red in Chicago]

Shocking. Gopher ball to Albert

[WebScorpion]

I blame the ump for that one. That 3rd pitch was a strike, and when the ump called it a ball Arroyo had no choice but to come in. Boom! 3-1 Cards. :(

[fearofpopvol1]

I know it may go against logic to load the bases, but I would never pitch to Albert with 2 men on base and 2 outs.

[kaldaniels]

Carp is still winded I bet. Let's get him this inning.

[Homer Bailey]

There hasn't been an extreme opposite like the one previously mentioned.

But logically, what the Reds have done for all but two weeks of the season is more representative of what they'd do going forward than a sample that includes a bloated amount of production.

No. What they've done over the course of the entire season (and last season as well), is more indicative than using selective endpoints.

[Brutus]

I respectfully, and I am sincere in that, disagree completely. It all counts to me.

And if I may ask, could you elaborate on the tick above average remark?

Not going to bother with it. I've stated my position in the past.

But suffice to say, there's a reason some mathematicians prefer median over mean -- because extreme portions of a sample can be very misleading to an average, especially if the average is construed as being representative of a sustainable level or expectation.

[TheBurn]

Stubbs gets it started...

[Brutus]

No. What they've done over the course of the entire season (and last season as well), is more indicative than using selective endpoints.

Respectfully, many people disagree with you.

As I just said to Kal, there's a reason a lot of people prefer median over mean. Because extreme portions of a sample can dramatically skew a mean.

[Tony Cloninger]

Is this team ever going to win 2 in a row again? I think even the 1982 Reds did that a couple of times or more.

[CrackerJack]

Nauseating

[Homer Bailey]

Over the last two seasons, the Reds have a .339 wOBA with RISP, 2nd only to the Cardinals at .340.

That's pretty good.

[Red in Chicago]

The base running is Horrible tonight

[Brutus]

Over the last two seasons, the Reds have a .339 wOBA with RISP, 2nd only to the Cardinals at .340.

That's pretty good.

What does last year have to do with this year?

It's a new season, new team.

[PuffyPig]

The season numbers are still very much thriving from an otherworldly start to the season. In any case, they most certainly aren't doing much of it lately.

5 games can't make that much difference at this stage of the season.

[Homer Bailey]

Respectfully, many people disagree with you.

As I just said to Kal, there's a reason a lot of people prefer median over mean. Because extreme portions of a sample can dramatically skew a mean.

Since when has median been used in baseball evaluation? Literally every single rate state is a mean. And I have seen zero evidence that the median in this situation would give us different information than the mean.

[Homer Bailey]

What does last year have to do with this year?

It's a new season, new team.

How? It's almost literally the same exact team? (Minus Cabrera, plus Lewis).

And this year they're 3rd in the NL, for the record.

[PuffyPig]

Respectfully, many people disagree with you.

As I just said to Kal, there's a reason a lot of people prefer median over mean. Because extreme portions of a sample can dramatically skew a mean.

Respectfully, the vast majority of people disagree with you.

[edabbs44]

ER with a solid play in the hole to end the inning.

[Brutus]

Since when has median been used in baseball evaluation? Literally every single rate state is a mean. And I have seen zero evidence that the median in this situation would give us different information than the mean.

It hasn't. But that wasn't the point. You said what they have done over the course of the season is better than using selective endpoints. That's not necessarily true because that's a flaw in inherently trusting a mean too much in a shorter sample.

Median isn't used in baseball, more likely because it's harder to calculate easily. But the point here is that averages in a smaller sample can greatly skew what's being measured because of extreme subsets of the sample.

Thus, I'd argue what the Reds did in those first two weeks is not indicative of what they would do going forward (and hasn't been), nor has the skewed mean that includes such a sample.

http://davidmlane.com/hyperstat/A27533.html


The median is the middle of a distribution: half the scores are above the median and half are below the median. The median is less sensitive to extreme scores than the mean and this makes it a better measure than the mean for highly skewed distributions. The median income is usually more informative than the mean income, for example.

The sum of the absolute deviations of each number from the median is lower than is the sum of absolute deviations from any other number. Click here for an example.

[Homer Bailey]

It hasn't. But that wasn't the point. You said what they have done over the course of the season is better than using selective endpoints. That's not necessarily true because that's a flaw in inherently trusting a mean too much in a shorter sample.

Median isn't used in baseball, more likely because it's harder to calculate easily. But the point here is that averages in a smaller sample can greatly skew what's being measured because of extreme subsets of the sample.

Thus, I'd argue what the Reds did in those first two weeks is not indicative of what they would do going forward (and hasn't been), nor has the skewed mean that includes such a sample.

http://davidmlane.com/hyperstat/A27533.html

So is your position that the Reds are the only team to have an outlier stretch of their season, and their "median" is much lower than their "average"? Is there any data to suggest the Reds "median" is poor compared to the rest of the league?

[Ron Madden]

What's going on in the game?

I'm on vacation in Florida with no TV or radio coverage.

[CrackerJack]

4-1 Cards, Arroyo out, 7th inning, 2 Outs.

Yawn.

[alloverjr]

The game has been postponed so that we can argue differential tools of statistical analysis. ;)


4-1 Cards in the 7th.

[Ron Madden]

4-1 Cards, Arroyo out, 7th inning, 2 Outs.

Yawn.


Thanks CrackerJack. :thumbup:

[VR]

Missed opportunities the last two nights. Baserunning blunders, errors, missed plays (Lewis on Pujols fly, Arroyo on the bunt that would have ended the innings) mega men left on base in early innings.

They just absolutely refuse to put together a winning streak.

[VR]

That was a nice single by Stubbs. Find a way to get on here Edgar......

[The Operator]

Beautiful AB by Renteria.

[Tony Cloninger]

The game has been postponed so that we can argue differential tools of statistical analysis. ;)


4-1 Cards in the 7th.



Can't we just chew and spit tobacco and grab our jocks?

[Homer Bailey]

And that's why you don't bat the worst hitter on your roster in front of your best hitter.

[cincyinco]

So frustrating..

[The Operator]

So how much longer will Priss' arm hold up the way The Cards have been riding him this season?

[alloverjr]

Votto left on deck again.

Like what I see of Stubbs in the last 2 AB's.

Still 4-1 through 7.

Pirates up 1 against the Astros if it matters. Can we trade for Clint Hurdle?

[Brutus]

So is your position that the Reds are the only team to have an outlier stretch of their season, and their "median" is much lower than their "average"? Is there any data to suggest the Reds "median" is poor compared to the rest of the league?

My position is that the first two weeks of the season was such an extreme outlier, I don't think it's intuitive to include any averages that are partially derived from that outlier.

It's why many scientists and math people advocate, at very least, the exclusion of outliers falling outside a standard deviation when calculating a mean because they're not always telling when predicting future performances.

[757690]

And that's why you don't bat the worst hitter on your roster in front of your best hitter.

You mean the way it resulted in the Reds' only run of the game in the third? ;)

[edabbs44]

And that's why you don't bat the worst hitter on your roster in front of your best hitter.

The guy does have 2 hits tonight.

[Homer Bailey]

I honestly think the Reds should consider moving Lecure into the rotation. Dude has been straight filth this year.

[cincyinco]

Let's face it.. The Gomes and Renteria at bats both stunk.

[Homer Bailey]

The guy does have 2 hits tonight.

One of them being a ball he hit 45 feet. And that still doesn't change the fact that you don't want your worst hitter hitting in front of your best.

[kaldaniels]

Dear God. The Cowboy is talking ice cream.

[Homer Bailey]

You mean the way it resulted in the Reds' only run of the game in the third? ;)

The ball he nubbed 45 feet? We're really going to credit that as skill?

[edabbs44]

One of them being a ball he hit 45 feet. And that still doesn't change the fact that you don't want your worst hitter hitting in front of your best.

With the other being a GR double. Understand the point, however it is tough to nitpick the 1 AB when he has been on twice tonight ahead of Votto.

[_Sir_Charles_]

Dear God. The Cowboy is talking ice cream.

When ISN'T he? I understand that most of you here watch the games on TV, but I listen to WLW exclusively and he's ALWAYS talking about his next meal. It's funny & cute the first time or two you hear it...but after about 200 times...it's rather nauseating.

[Homer Bailey]

With the other being a GR double. Understand the point, however it is tough to nitpick the 1 AB when he has been on twice tonight ahead of Votto.

In a key situation, he was at the plate when the Reds desperately needed to get Votto to the plate. That is a result of poor managing. I'm not hating on Renteria. He is what he is.

[The Operator]

Cardinals defense. Joey aboard.

[kaldaniels]

When ISN'T he? I understand that most of you here watch the games on TV, but I listen to WLW exclusively and he's ALWAYS talking about his next meal. It's funny & cute the first time or two you hear it...but after about 200 times...it's rather nauseating.

It was the first time this year I've heard him counting the scoops....I guess I've been lucky.

[757690]

The ball he nubbed 45 feet? We're really going to credit that as skill?

Skill scmill. Just pointing out how much randomness there is when it comes to lineups.

[cincyinco]

It was the first time this year I've heard him counting the scoops....I guess I've been lucky.


What was it.. Eight scoops?

[The Operator]

100 pitches now for the big baby.

[Homer Bailey]

Skill scmill. Just pointing out how much randomness there is when it comes to lineups.

Randomness happens. Sure. Still doesn't excuse not putting your players in a position to succeed.

[Red in Chicago]

I'm making gelato right now if anyone cares :p

[cincyinco]

I am thinking boxed mac and cheese yo!

[_Sir_Charles_]

I'm making gelato right now if anyone cares :p

Don't tell Brantley. :p

[The Operator]

Wow. You cannot let that go by.

[VR]

Jay guessing on both of the last two pitches. Eesh.

[edabbs44]

In a key situation, he was at the plate when the Reds desperately needed to get Votto to the plate. That is a result of poor managing. I'm not hating on Renteria. He is what he is.

Hitters 4-9 combined have the same amount of hits that Renteria has tonight. Point is valid, however you are lacking in support.

[The Operator]

Cardinals defense!

[_Sir_Charles_]

Cardinals Defense. A thing of beauty. :O)

[The Operator]

Hahahaha Priss is upset.

[Homer Bailey]

Hitters 4-9 combined have the same amount of hits that Renteria has tonight. Point is valid, however you are lacking in support.

Sigh. Nevermind. Renteria is clearly the best option for the 2 hole.

[edabbs44]

Nice skyhook

[Red in Chicago]

Must make them pay here

[The Operator]

If it weren't for baseball, I strongly believe Carpenter would be in jail by now.

[edabbs44]

If it weren't for baseball, I strongly believe Carpenter would be in jail by now.

But maybe it is only baseball which makes him this angry. Do you think he would berate a junior intern if they blew past a deadline if he worked in an office?

He might.

[_Sir_Charles_]

Sigh. Nevermind. Renteria is clearly the best option for the 2 hole.

I don't think anybody disagrees that Renteria is not suited for the 2 hole. But it's hard to base your argument on tonights results.

I have a feeling that Baker wanted to try to get Renteria going again by hitting him in front of Votto which would ensure that he gets pitches to hit. I don't agree with it, but I can certainly see him using that "logic".

[Homer Bailey]

If he walks, do you PH Hernandez for Hanigan? I do.

[edabbs44]

Sigh. Nevermind. Renteria is clearly the best option for the 2 hole.

He was tonight.

[Homer Bailey]

Jesus Heisey

[The Operator]

It never fails. When they need a guy to come through, he doesn't.

[Red in Chicago]

Ugliest swing of the night. Sigh

[edabbs44]

Ummm....that was fairly ridiculous.

[_Sir_Charles_]

Wow. Carpenter could've rolled that one up there. Heisey had decided to swing before stepping into the box. Sheesh.

[cincyinco]

He was tonight.

Can't say that with certainty either. No idea how Cozart would have fared.

[_Sir_Charles_]

Jesus Heisey

Chris' long lost brother from Mexico?

[VR]

Absolutely stunning. Besides Votto.....this team lacks consistent major league hitters. Miguel Cairo and Ramon Hernandez are the guys you want up there in the 8th and 9th. That says it all.

[Homer Bailey]

He was tonight.

None of my comments have been results based. Nothing that could have happened tonight would have made it the correct decision to put your worst hitter in a position to get the 2nd most at bats.

[Brutus]

Absolutely stunning. Besides Votto.....this team lacks consistent major league hitters. Miguel Cairo and Ramon Hernandez are the guys you want up there in the 8th and 9th. That says it all.

This is the time where I should post the obligatory OPS, wOBA or RPG of the Reds this year to otherwise invalidate your belief :)

But I happen to agree with you. The Reds strike out far too often and have a lack of consistent, quality hitters to come up with the hits when they need them the most.

[cincyinco]

Bad swings, bad base running, and just uninspired baseball. I had held onto hope that last nights win would light a fire under this team, but tonight's effort has left something to be desired.

[Homer Bailey]

This is the time where I should post the obligatory OPS, wOBA or RPG of the Reds this year to otherwise invalidate your belief :)

But I happen to agree with you. The Reds strike out far too often and have a lack of consistent, quality hitters to come up with the hits when they need them the most.

Yeah, may as well dismiss the data (facts) if it doesn't support your position, right?

[kaldaniels]

Will the Brutus/Homer cagematch be available on PPV?

[Brutus]

Yeah, may as well dismiss the data (facts) if it doesn't support your position, right?

It can be just as dangerous to forget correlation doesn't equal causation and even data that seemingly supports a thesis doesn't always mean it to be what one wants it to mean.

The work of SABR has done a lot of good for baseball, but unfortunately it hasn't taught baseball fans to be careful about interpreting the data with caution. A lot of statistics/math principles have been forgotten or used recklessly in the zeal to analyze baseball stats.

[cincyinco]

The time for Bray was before the Pujols home run Dusty, and the time for Lewis was when you sent Gomes to the plate.

[Homer Bailey]

It can be just as dangerous to forget correlation doesn't equal causation and even data that seemingly supports a thesis doesn't always mean it to be what one wants it to mean.

The work of SABR has done a lot of good for baseball, but unfortunately it hasn't taught baseball fans to be careful about interpreting the data with caution.

It's also taught us that what is seen with our eyes is not always necessarily true, especially because no one outside of the MLB Fan Cave watches every single game.

[cincrazy]

Not to be rude, but I thought convos like this were being eliminated from the game thread? I respect both of you as a poster, but you're really taking away from the quality of this game. I came here to follow the game because I can't watch on tv or listen on the radio, and I'm not interested in any personal battles, which is all the game thread has morphed into for the most part.

[cincrazy]

If this team can just get a few guys on they can make it interesting. Salas is hopefully rocking still from last night's performance.

[kaldaniels]

Hanigan. Lewis. Stubbs. Edgar.

Please, 2 of you guys get on base for Joey.

[edabbs44]

The time for Bray was before the Pujols home run Dusty, and the time for Lewis was when you sent Gomes to the plate.

I guess we could also blame the Reds brass for not drafting Pujols as well, but that might be stretching it just a bit.

[Brutus]

It's also taught us that what is seen with our eyes is not always necessarily true, especially because no one outside of the MLB Fan Cave watches every single game.

Right. But that doesn't invalidate my opinion anymore than it validates yours to cite the stats. The point here is that there's still a lot of subjectivity to it.

Hence we come to the most important thing of all: we still can't measure everything and derive with any conclusion 100%.

[Brutus]

Not to be rude, but I thought convos like this were being eliminated from the game thread? I respect both of you as a poster, but you're really taking away from the quality of this game. I came here to follow the game because I can't watch on tv or listen on the radio, and I'm not interested in any personal battles, which is all the game thread has morphed into for the most part.

Quality of which game? The one where the Reds are losing by 3 runs and there was virtually no discussion for a whole inning when Homer and I were not debating this topic?

:)

I understand your frustration, and perhaps you have a point, but it's not like this thread was going smoothly to begin with.

[Homer Bailey]

Not to be rude, but I thought convos like this were being eliminated from the game thread? I respect both of you as a poster, but you're really taking away from the quality of this game. I came here to follow the game because I can't watch on tv or listen on the radio, and I'm not interested in any personal battles, which is all the game thread has morphed into for the most part.

Fair enough. Once I get going its hard for me to stop though.

[cincrazy]

Fair enough. Once I get going its hard for me to stop though.

That's what she said.

That probably wasn't appropiate. But hey, maybe it will help break the tension and lead to a Reds comeback win.

[cincyinco]

I guess we could also blame the Reds brass for not drafting Pujols as well, but that might be stretching it just a bit.

You think? I'm not one to often second guess the manager or his moves but Dusty has been pitiful this year. Maybe my recollection is wrong, but it seems like night and day when compared to last year.

[The Operator]

Way to swing through ball 4, Fred.

[edabbs44]

You think? I'm not one to often second guess the manager or his moves but Dusty has been pitiful this year. Maybe my recollection is wrong, but it seems like night and day when compared to last year.

So you were serious that Dusty should have yanked Arroyo in the 5th?

[Homer Bailey]

Lewis swings at ball 4 trying to hit a home run down 3 runs, then grounds out.

[VR]

Home run swing on ball four by Lewis. Quickly wearing out his welcome.

[cincrazy]

Tough game. When Bruce had the bases loaded and we were already up 1-0, that was our chance. I knew after that DP we may be in trouble.

[VR]

Just too much stupid baseball lately by the Reds. Starting to feel like the dark decade.

[edabbs44]

Edgar up with Votto on deck. Uh oh.

[Homer Bailey]

Edgar Renteria up with the game on the line. Just like we wanted.

[VR]

Lewis walk and Stubbs single brings up the tying run. Oh, wait.

[edabbs44]

Edgar Renteria up with the game on the line. Just like we wanted.

Wouldn't that be more random that anything?

[VR]

Yet another home run swing.

Awesome

[cincyinco]

So you were serious that Dusty should have yanked Arroyo in the 5th?

My mistake, I am getting my at bats confused because Jay has nipped us more than once. Bray should have been brought in when Jay tacked on the extra run. When Arroyo was clearly out of gas.

[jojo]

I wonder how Chris Carpenter will explain to his son that the Reds only scored 1 run in 16 innings he pitched against then in two straight crucial games....

[Homer Bailey]

Wouldn't that be more random that anything?

Somewhat. But when you give him the 2nd most opportunities to get at bats, you give it a better chance of happening.

And surprise, he K's.

[Brutus]

Somewhat. But when you give him the 2nd most opportunities to get at bats, you give it a better chance of happening.

And surprise, he K's.

I thought you said you weren't basing your position off the results of this game?

[kaldaniels]

I thought you said you weren't basing your position off the results of this game?

Brutus is back off the mat!

Yeah, I'm not helping things.

[Brutus]

I detest Renteria batting second as much as the next guy (even Homer). However, he had two hits including one of the team's only two extra-base hits.

That probably isn't the best topic to worry about in this game.

[cincyinco]

Anyway, all around a pretty disappointing performance from the team.. No mojo whatsoever. No swagger. Brandon picks them up last night, and then they look lifeless and uninterested the next day.

[Homer Bailey]

I thought you said you weren't basing your position off the results of this game?

Um, was I? Or was I basing it off him being the worst hitter on the team?

Basing my position off the results would have been him going 0-4 and me saying "I knew Dusty shouldn't have batted him 2nd," or him going 2-4 and me saying "Clearly he should have been batting 2nd."

My position was clear from the get go.

[Tony Cloninger]

What kind of swing was the one by Hesiey on the 8th......ball was outside out of Carps hand basically?


Oh well... At least Uruguay beat Argentina in the Quarters at Copa America. Yeah I know...no one cares.

[Ron Madden]

Well, it sucks not being able to win two in a row in what seems like forever.

I know it doesn't mean anything but I agree with Homer Bailey on all fronts tonight. :)

[Brutus]

Um, was I? Or was I basing it off him being the worst hitter on the team?

Basing my position off the results would have been him going 0-4 and me saying "I knew Dusty shouldn't have batted him 2nd," or him going 2-4 and me saying "Clearly he should have been batting 2nd."

My position was clear from the get go.

Well the worst hitter on the team is one of only two players in the lineup to get multiple hits today. It just seems like misplaced frustration on the manager instead of directing it to the guys that simply aren't getting the hits routinely enough.

My concern is that Dusty can't do right. Even if he makes a suspect choice, and bats a guy like Renteria in this position, nevermind whether he actually did get the team a few hits, he's still in the wrong for doing it.

[kaldaniels]

This team is a Brandon Phillips swing away from being 6 games back.

But if Homer gets us a W tommorrow, the Reds will come out of this series 3 back. Asking for a sweep is always greedy, but for crying out loud, gotta get 2 out of 3.

[Brutus]

Well, it sucks not being able to win two in a row in what seems like forever.

I know it doesn't mean anything but I agree with Homer Bailey on all fronts tonight. :)

I've always found it interesting how you've concocted a method of taking subtle shots at me by simply making light of the ones disagreeing with me, rather than do it directly. It's a clever way to passively-aggressively disagree because most don't pick up on it. Coy, though for me it has been somewhat transparent :) I'll give you credit for your creativity.

[Homer Bailey]

Well the worst hitter on the team is one of only two players in the lineup to get multiple hits today. It just seems like misplaced frustration on the manager instead of directing it to the guys that simply aren't getting the hits routinely enough.

My concern is that Dusty can't do right. Even if he makes a suspect choice, and bats a guy like Renteria in this position, nevermind whether he actually did get the team a few hits, he's still in the wrong for doing it.

Sigh.

First of all, I'm not going to give Renteria credit for the dribbler "hit" that probably should have been an error. He had one good at bat. In 5 AB's, he had exactly 1 at bat where he made good contact. But all of that is besides the ONLY point I've tried to make in this regard.

Under zero circumstances is it good managing to put your worst hitter in the two hole. None. It's completely inexcusable. If Renteria would have gone 5 for 5, I would still say the exact same thing. Give your team the best chance to win. Period. Dusty did not do that, and it resulted in our worst hitter being up in two very high leverage situations. Even if he would have hit home runs in both of those bats, I would say that Renteria was batting as a result of poor management.

A similar situation happened last night with Cozart batting in the 9th, and getting an extremely important base hit, which extended the inning for Phillips, who hit the game winning home run. You give your best hitters the opportunity to get the most at bats possible. That is my entire position.

[Tony Cloninger]

Reds with 2 outs and risp:

Votto .483
BP .268
Rolen .222
Bruce .205
Heisey .192
Stubbs .179
Lewis .167
Hanigan .133
Hernandez .105
Gomes .091

That and the Cueto and Who Knows what the next starter will look like...along with the bullpen that can implode at any time...... is a recipe for whatever this season is.

[Brutus]

Sigh.

First of all, I'm not going to give Renteria credit for the dribbler "hit" that probably should have been an error. He had one good at bat. In 5 AB's, he had exactly 1 at bat where he made good contact. But all of that is besides the ONLY point I've tried to make in this regard.

Under zero circumstances is it good managing to put your worst hitter in the two hole. None. It's completely inexcusable. If Renteria would have gone 5 for 5, I would still say the exact same thing. Give your team the best chance to win. Period. Dusty did not do that, and it resulted in our worst hitter being up in two very high leverage situations. Even if he would have hit home runs in both of those bats, I would say that Renteria was batting as a result of poor management.

A similar situation happened last night with Cozart batting in the 9th, and getting an extremely important base hit, which extended the inning for Phillips, who hit the game winning home run. You give your best hitters the opportunity to get the most at bats possible. That is my entire position.

Dusty felt that Renteria, for whatever reason, gave him a better chance to win tonight than Cozart. I don't agree but you know what? His choice got three total bases from that position tonight.

The problem isn't whether or not you have a point about giving the team a best chance to win... it's that we can't say for certain he didn't do that. After all, the results do have meaning.

[jojo]

A poor decision is a poor decision regardless of the results.

[kaldaniels]

Buying a lottery ticket and hitting the jackpot does not mean that it was a "wise" decision to play the lottery. You got lucky.

Dusty's decision to bat Edgar 2nd was a poor one, but I don't think it cost the Reds tonight...thats my 2 cents.

[Brutus]

A poor decision is a poor decision regardless of the results.

That makes no sense whatsoever. Results are the very foundation of whether a decision is poor or not.

It's a results-based business. Decisions should be judged on the results. If people want to say, then, that Dusty is doing a poor job this year, that's fine because the results aren't working in his favor on the whole. But he specifically stated his reason for starting Renteria tonight, mainly that he felt Renteria was more prepared to hit against Carpenter, and like it or not, Dusty wasn't completely crazy. Renteria had two hits.

[kaldaniels]

And back to the game, I thought Arroyo pitched good tonight, but geez...don't let Albert beat you. Cause he will.

[Homer Bailey]

Buying a lottery ticket and hitting the jackpot does not mean that it was a "wise" decision to play the lottery. You got lucky.

Dusty's decision to bat Edgar 2nd was a poor one, but I don't think it cost the Reds tonight...thats my 2 cents.

I agree. I hope no one thought that my argument was that batting Renteria 2nd cost the Reds the game. I'm just arguing that it's idiotic.

[jojo]

If Larussa batted Pujols 9th and the Cards still won, was it a good decision? Of course not but someone arguing only results matter would have to conclude LaRussa made a good decision.

[Brutus]

Buying a lottery ticket and hitting the jackpot does not mean that it was a "wise" decision to play the lottery. You got lucky.

Dusty's decision to bat Edgar 2nd was a poor one, but I don't think it cost the Reds tonight...thats my 2 cents.

Deciding whether or not to start a veteran with a World Series MVP and the hero of a second or an upstart rookie and playing the winning numbers in a lottery (of which is one-in-a-million or more odds) are not remotely comparable in decision-making.

You're right, playing the lottery is sheer luck. Playing a veteran shortstop in a game against a veteran pitcher may or may not be statistically the best choice, but it also is enough a toss-up that it can't be haphazardly labeled the wrong choice.

[kaldaniels]

If Larussa batted Pujols 9th and the Cards still won, was it a good decision? Of course not but someone arguing only results matter would have to conclude LaRussa made a good decision.

Some on here say results don't matter. Some say only results matter.

Put me down as saying both ends matter to a degree (the info on hand at the time the decision is made, and the results.) Hope that made sense.

[edabbs44]

Renteria may be the worst hitter on the team, but he may not be the worst hitter in all situations across the board.

[Homer Bailey]

And for the record. Renteria is going to play. I'm aware of that, and I accept that. Just bat him 8th, please, and you will have no complaints from me. As long as Cozart is getting 75% of the starts.

[kaldaniels]

Deciding whether or not to start a veteran with a World Series MVP and the hero of a second or an upstart rookie and playing the winning numbers in a lottery (of which is one-in-a-million or more odds) are not remotely comparable in decision-making.

You're right, playing the lottery is sheer luck. Playing a veteran shortstop in a game against a veteran pitcher may or may not be statistically the best choice, but it also is enough a toss-up that it can't be haphazardly labeled the wrong choice.

If the Reds play the Cards in the NLCS, would you Brutus, start Edgar and bat him 2nd if the series went to game 7 against Carpenter?

[jojo]

Some on here say results don't matter. Some say only results matter.

Put me down as saying both ends matter to a degree (the info on hand at the time the decision is made, and the results.) Hope that made sense.

Good decisions can be made that work out poorly. Poor decisions can be made that work out well.

Over time though good decisions lead to good results more often. Batting a weak hitter second is a poor decision.

[kaldaniels]

And for the record. Renteria is going to play. I'm aware of that, and I accept that. Just bat him 8th, please, and you will have no complaints from me. As long as Cozart is getting 75% of the starts.

Yeah, I had no qualms at all about Edgar playing tonight, it was putting him in the 2 hole.

[kaldaniels]

Good decisions can be made that work out poorly. Poor decisions can be made that work out well.

Over time though good decisions lead to good results more often. Batting a weak hitter second is a poor decision.

No doubt.

[Homer Bailey]

Renteria may be the worst hitter on the team, but he may not be the worst hitter in all situations across the board.

Yet he is:

Runners On: .577
Scoring Position: .619
Bases Loaded: .292
RISP, 2 out: .504

[Ron Madden]

Good decisions can be made that work out poorly. Poor decisions can be made that work out well.

Over time though good decisions lead to good results more often. Batting a weak hitter second is a poor decision.


Well said.

[Homer Bailey]

Good decisions can be made that work out poorly. Poor decisions can be made that work out well.

Over time though good decisions lead to good results more often. Batting a weak hitter second is a poor decision.

Thank you.

[Brutus]

Good decisions can be made that work out poorly. Poor decisions can be made that work out well.

Over time though good decisions lead to good results more often. Batting a weak hitter second is a poor decision.

What makes a good decision in the first place? Previous good decisions that were rendered good because they worked.

It all comes back to results no matter how you slice it.

The macro is made up of the micro. You can't do everything the same every time.

There's a thing call variable change that one always has to account for and make different decisions to account for that.

If we're talking batting Renteria second for 162 games, it's unquestionably a very poor choice. Because over the long haul, that would not be the most effective choice to obtain a positive outcome.

But in the macro, there are situations that batting Renteria second might actually be the better choice.

Prove otherwise. And that's a rhetorical command because you can't. Hence the reason that results matter and one can't ascertain that for this game, in this situation, it was necessarily a bad choice to put him there.

[edabbs44]

Yet he is:

Runners On: .577
Scoring Position: .619
Bases Loaded: .292
RISP, 2 out: .504

I wasn't talking about those situations.

I guess we could have hit Heisey 2nd tonight, and watched him swing at pitch-out quality pitches. Or Bruce, so he could fail in those high leverage situations instead of the ones he saw. BP as well.

Everything in baseball isn't found on the internet.

[edabbs44]

If the Reds play the Cards in the NLCS, would you Brutus, start Edgar and bat him 2nd if the series went to game 7 against Carpenter?

based on history, who would you hit 2nd? There aren't many contenders.

[kaldaniels]

based on history, who would you hit 2nd? There aren't many contenders.

Let's just say I would have had a totally different lineup.

Conservatively...

Stubbs
Heisey
Votto
BP
Bruce
Rolen
Hanigan
Edgar
P

But if I got to really thinking I'd mix it up more than that.

[kaldaniels]

And I fought for Edgar over Janish, so its not like I hate Renteria. But I pencil the worst hitter into the 8th spot, unless extreme circumstances warrant. Tonight it was not warranted (for me).

[jojo]

It boils down to dusty had a gut feeling and he got lucky.... That's scary because it's enough to sustain a lot of gut feelings that don't work out.... Macro,micro blakro blikro....

Good decisions are defined by good rationale....

[edabbs44]

It boils down to dusty had a gut feeling and he got lucky.... That's scary because it's enough to sustain a lot of gut feelings that don't work out.... Macro,micro blakro blikro....

Good decisions are defined by good rationale....

I guess we are just missing the rationale for who would have been the better decision.

[Brutus]

based on history, who would you hit 2nd? There aren't many contenders.

Yeah here are the OBP of the other Reds' starters tonight not named Votto-Phillips-Bruce

Heisey .313
Rolen .279
Stubbs .331
Lewis .338
Hanigan .350

The league OBP this year for position players is .334. The Reds had only one option that was more than a few points even above average outside of the middle of the order. There simply weren't many optimum choices.

In the macro, batting a guy with a .304 OBP second is definitely not wise. But on a single-game basis, it's highly contingent upon too many factors... recent play, who the pitcher is, how the players are feeling that day, etc.

I'll stand by my first comments in this thread today. I'd rather have seen Renteria start tomorrow. But given that he did start, while he'd not have been my first option, I'm not sure there really is any right choice here. If we'd take a poll on Redszone about who *should* bat second, you'd get a wide array of answers. That's because there's simply not a standout choice.

The other side of this is while it's ideal to put people on base, there are times when a case could be made short-term that by having a hitter like Renteria in front of Votto, it gives him a chance to see more fastballs and square up on a pitch. He's shown the ability to hit in the past (after all, he's a career .740 OPS at a defensive premium position). While he's not that same guy he used to be, just a season ago he was an above-average SS in this league at his position. There's still a chance that the .572 OPS is not indicative of what he could be going forward.

[Brutus]

It boils down to dusty had a gut feeling and he got lucky.... That's scary because it's enough to sustain a lot of gut feelings that don't work out.... Macro,micro blakro blikro....

Good decisions are defined by good rationale....

Good decisions are defined by what works. Otherwise there wouldn't be good decisions.

[jojo]

Good decisions are defined by what works. Otherwise there wouldn't be good decisions.

That provides no basis for making the next decision.... it should be intuitive that bad decisions can at times produce desireable results even though they negatively impacted the odds of success.

[edabbs44]

That provides no basis for making the next decision.... it should be intuitive that bad decisions can at times produce desireable results even though they negatively impacted the odds of success.

In order to be able to judge what is a good or bad decision, wouldn't we (in most cases) need to know what criteria was used in the decision making process?

[jojo]

In order to be able to judge what is a good or bad decision, wouldn't we (in most cases) need to know what criteria was used in the decision making process?

What argument can be made for batting renteria second in an important game against a tough righty? Thats not a bad place to start....

[Brutus]

There are millions of possible scenarios that can occur in a baseball game and many different ways, philosophies and proven methods of handling them successfully. The actual probabilities of such events are only fractionally different in the micro, so much so that haggling over the choice of one method or another is not only a narrow view of how things work, but probably not even always statistically accurate if we could truly measure all the variables involved in the decision.

If it were simple as knowing exactly what is the best decision and what wasn't, we would just play a computer simulation and be done with it.

However, we're dealing with very unpredictable variables. Variables that are humans and not computer models.

The funny thing is that to prove someone did indeed make a "bad" decision to bat someone second in a given game, even statistically, they'd have to run probability for all the possible outcomes and possible alternatives. That's neither practical and only possible with a supercomputer, I imagine. After all, the difference between Renteria's OBP and the other options is no more than 3-4%. And that doesn't include the other important variables such as who's pitching and other circumstances within the game itself which could, theoretically, make Renteria the statistically sound choice in *some* situations. And since each game and each situation is its stand-alone event, that's what really matters...optimizing the situations themselves.

To make any definitive judgments about the quality of a decision in a single game or small subset of games is narrow and oversimplifying matters. We're really debating, in this thread, literally fractions of percentage points in some cases.

[jojo]

What were debating is the merits of a philosophy that has led to the taveras' of the world getting significant ABs in the two hole in dusty's lineups....

[Brutus]

What were debating is the merits of a philosophy that has led to the taveras' of the world getting significant ABs in the two hole in dusty's lineups....

And as I said, the percentage differences between doing so and not doing so are so miniscule it's silly to worry about in a small sample. Three or four percent is the difference between Renteria and the other options for that spot. That's not even taking into account the other variables that would need to be considered to measure the soundness of such a decision.

Just for context of what I'm saying:

Renteria is 10th among regulars on the team in OBP (excluding pitchers and Cozart). Yet, the difference between Joey Votto and Ramon Hernandez (who is second on the team in OBP) is greater than the difference between Ramon and Renteria who is 10th. Of all guys in the lineup Saturday night, the difference between Votto and Ramon was nearly double than that of Renteria and the second-best OBP in the entire lineup.

[757690]

For the record, according to Baseball Musing's Lineup Analysis, today's lineup would average 4.345 runs a game or 703 runs a season.

Switching Renteria with Heisey would produce a lineup that would average 4.367 runs a game or 707 runs a season.

Now, the big problem with complaining about lineups is that a team usually uses around 100 or so different lineups a season, so the statistical advantage rarely has a chance to actually show up. Luck or randomness has a much greater influence over the success of a lineup than the actual construction of the lineup, as evident by Renteria getting two hits today.

[mth123]

The discussion in this thread about line-ups and all is interesting, my two cents is that Renteria played well so it didn't have much impact on this game. This was more about championship caliber players rising up when the team needs them. Last night the Cards took a tough loss that had the potential to send them into a tailspin. Instead their star pitcher came out and shut the Reds down and their star position player hit a three run homer. Game over.

[757690]

The discussion in this thread about line-ups and all is interesting, my two cents is that Renteria played well so it didn't have much impact on this game. This was more about championship caliber players rising up when the team needs them. Last night the Cards took a tough loss that had the potential to send them into a tailspin. Instead their star pitcher came out and shut the Reds down and their star position player hit a three run homer. Game over.

Yep. Have to hand it to the Cards in this game. It's why I never count them out or take them lightly.

[GAC]

The base running is Horrible tonight

It's been pretty bad all year. Such stupid mental blunders that little league coaches wouldn't tolerate from their kids.

But we simply can't seem to capitalize with runners on base. I'm telling you, one of our biggest problems is at the clean-up position.

A .243/.313/.372/.685 line is simply terrible from that spot. Well below league average.

[Homer Bailey]

It's been pretty bad all year. Such stupid mental blunders that little league coaches wouldn't tolerate from their kids.

But we simply can't seem to capitalize with runners on base. I'm telling you, one of our biggest problems is at the clean-up position.

A .243/.313/.372/.685 line is simply terrible from that spot. Well below league average.

The Reds are the best baserunning team in the NL per fangraphs.

[Tony Cloninger]

The Reds are the best baserunning team in the NL per fangraphs.

Not when it comes to stealing bases they're not.

[Homer Bailey]

Not when it comes to stealing bases they're not.

That is not the only aspect of baserunning.