2012- 3rd Base

[The DARK]

It's definitely one of the more intriguing positions on this team. How do you think it will look in 2012?

Rolen is back, but he's going to be a huge question mark for this team. I doubt you'll see him put up that insane production that he did in 2010, but he's the kind of player who's likely to be highly motivated in his final year with this team, in the twilight of his career. However, he's more fragile than ever.

Cairo is signed for another year, and that deal isn't looking too shabby right now. He's been a well above-average stopgap the last two years around the field, and is one of the most reliable options on this team.

Francisco's time has come. At this point in his minor league career, he is what he is, and that is an impatient power bat that preys on weaker pitchers, and a massive but error-prone arm.

Frazier brings good defense, slightly more defense, moderate power, and a winning attitude. He's fallen off a bit these past two years (with a .260 batting average), but still gets good reports from scouts.

Alonso is an unlikely possibility at this point, with the plan involving him spending all of his time practicing in LF. However, if that experiment continues to flop, he could try to make good on the rumors of his abilities at 3B.

I think you have to go primarily with a Rolen and Francisco platoon as the main plan. Rolen should get most of the veteran and TOR pitchers who will easily fool Francisco, while Francisco should face some of the younger and lower-quality pitchers, who he should be able to destroy. Frazier should be waiting in AAA or traded (it's hard to find room on a roster that has Cairo, Alonso, Sappelt, Francisco, and Frazier all in the mix for two or three spots), while Cairo should get some playing time but primarily remain on the bench to back up the rest of the team.

[nux fan]

162 games for francisoc please, enough with the one armed one legged rolen

[redsfan1995]

i see rolen being the starter with cairo and francisco each playing once a week.

[HalKing]

Not that anybody seems to be listening to me, but I'll keep saying it anyway... Juan Francisco has a strong and accurate arm. I've seen his defense improve greatly in his time in Louisville. This season in particular there was a noticeable improvement. The guy has been given an unfair rap on his defense. AND he's a beast with the bat.

[The DARK]

Not that anybody seems to be listening to me, but I'll keep saying it anyway... Juan Francisco has a strong and accurate arm. I've seen his defense improve greatly in his time in Louisville. This season in particular there was a noticeable improvement. The guy has been given an unfair rap on his defense. AND he's a beast with the bat.

I'm going by what I've read by scouts, which may be outdated. How's his range looking? I'd like to give him a fair shot at third next year; he nearly did this time, if he had been performing early on and hadn't gotten injured.

[malcontent]

162 games for francisoc please, enough with the one armed one legged rolen
I think it's touching the way he carves out the initials "WJ" in the infield dirt with his motorized wheelchair before each game.

[Krawhitham]

I'm going by what I've read by scouts, which may be outdated. How's his range looking? I'd like to give him a fair shot at third next year; he nearly did this time, if he had been performing early on and hadn't gotten injured.

His range is better than Rolen's

But to be fair Rolen is 106 years old

[Ohayou]

They see me Rolen...

[HalKing]

Early this season Francisco's range was where I would have said his defensive liabilities showed up. Turned out that he was playing through a knee problem and he eventually had surgery on it. When he came back off the DL there was a noticeable improvement in his all around game. I think that showed up last night when he legged out that triple. I think defensively you just have to keep in mind that he is a big guy and not the most nimble guy on the field. Similar to a Sandoval or even Rolen... big guys can be decent fielders, but he's never going to be in the category of Zimmerman, Wright or Longoria.

[lidspinner]

Not that anybody seems to be listening to me, but I'll keep saying it anyway... Juan Francisco has a strong and accurate arm. I've seen his defense improve greatly in his time in Louisville. This season in particular there was a noticeable improvement. The guy has been given an unfair rap on his defense. AND he's a beast with the bat.

I gotta step in here...a beast with the bat? beast as in what? sure he tears up pitchers that are weaker pitchers....he rips the fastball as good as anyone, or hits them as far as anyone.....but we need someone who is not going to flare at a curveball as it bounces in front of the plate....that is just bad pitch recognition and you just dont see it that often at this level....batters might swing and miss at a curve, but at least it finds its way past the plate.....Juan is a bright star that would be a super star if he could just learn to see some pitches, I dont want him learning that on this team, we have enough guys cutting their teeth with the big league club, dont need another.

[Vottomatic]

I gotta step in here...a beast with the bat? beast as in what? sure he tears up pitchers that are weaker pitchers....he rips the fastball as good as anyone, or hits them as far as anyone.....but we need someone who is not going to flare at a curveball as it bounces in front of the plate....that is just bad pitch recognition and you just dont see it that often at this level....batters might swing and miss at a curve, but at least it finds its way past the plate.....Juan is a bright star that would be a super star if he could just learn to see some pitches, I dont want him learning that on this team, we have enough guys cutting their teeth with the big league club, dont need another.

Why do Bruce and Stubbs get enough rope to hang themselves with, but Francisco and Heisey don't?

I'm tired of this.

Give Francisco and Heisey 300 to 400 at-bats. Give them some more the next season and see if they improve on the last season. If they don't, move on to the next guy.

I'm tired of some guys getting zillions of chances because they were a #1 pick, and other guys getting yanked around, and not getting the same opportunities. Francisco and Heisey have done as much as those other guys to deserve the same chance.

If they crash and burn, so be it. Then we move on. But I think the Reds should atleast find out what they got, and do it by giving them a fair chance to succeed.

[bounty37h]

Not that anybody seems to be listening to me, but I'll keep saying it anyway... Juan Francisco has a strong and accurate arm. I've seen his defense improve greatly in his time in Louisville. This season in particular there was a noticeable improvement. The guy has been given an unfair rap on his defense. AND he's a beast with the bat.

I am hoping your right and will give you more credit for seeing him more often in Lville and his progress this season. When I critique his play, it is the little I have seen of hm first hand when Lville comes to Durham-and in those games he has yet to complete a play on a ball hit to him for an out. Granted its a small sample of only a few games, but he looked downright awful on a few of them. That said, 3rd is a desperate position of need for us IMO, and hope he is our 3'rd of the future if he continues to improve. I also think I hold back optimism after pulling hard for EdE and watching that drown.

[brm7675]

Unless he is physcially unable to go opening day Scott Rolen will be the Reds 3rd basemen with Cairo on the bench as the backup. My bet is Juan F. will start at AAA with the idea from the Reds should Rolen go down he will take over but they will want him to play everyday which he won't do in cincy with a healthy Rolen on the Roster. Frazier will be in AAA as will Yonder unless he is traded this offseason.

[nux fan]

rolen belongs in the infirmary, healthy or not healthy francisco should be playing every day

[Stray]

Francisco is going to make the decision fairly easy unless something happens in ST. Even if Rolen is healthy he cannot play everyday and expect to finish a season, Francisco will platoon at 3rd with him imo.

[Ohayou]

If Rolen is 100% healthy, 2010-like, why the heck would you want anyone else? It's his last year, right? Let him play.

[Stray]

If Rolen is 100% healthy, 2010-like, why the heck would you want anyone else? It's his last year, right? Let him play.

Because of his age and recent injuries. If we let him loose to play everyday what are the odds that he would be healthy in August? Splitting time would help him out a lot.

[nux fan]

because next year is not 2010 might as well wish for Chris Sabo at third

[Ohayou]

Well, no duh it's obvious he's not going to play anywhere near 140+ games but to say you'd rather have Francisco play a full season than a productive Rolen is foolish. He'll split the workload, but he needs to prove he can get on base first before he takes over the starting job.

[brm7675]

rolen belongs in the infirmary, healthy or not healthy francisco should be playing every day

"Should" has nothing to do with it, if healthy Rolen will be the opening day starter and play 5-6 days a week with Cairo picking up the other two.

[nux fan]

says who, francisco is the better play right now, rolen can watch from his hospital bed, rolen cant stay healthy for more than one day in a row and francisco is the better hitter right now

[brm7675]

Why do Bruce and Stubbs get enough rope to hang themselves with, but Francisco and Heisey don't?

I'm tired of this.

Give Francisco and Heisey 300 to 400 at-bats. Give them some more the next season and see if they improve on the last season. If they don't, move on to the next guy.

I'm tired of some guys getting zillions of chances because they were a #1 pick, and other guys getting yanked around, and not getting the same opportunities. Francisco and Heisey have done as much as those other guys to deserve the same chance.

If they crash and burn, so be it. Then we move on. But I think the Reds should atleast find out what they got, and do it by giving them a fair chance to succeed.

With Heisey we know he won't see those number of AB's as Dusty has said he is going to only play him in situations where he can be successful. As for Francisco, it's sad but as long as Scott Rolen is a Red and able to play he is going to get the playing time and you can't sit a kid like Francisco on the bench and only play him 1-2 times every few weeks. You put him in AAA until Rolen goes on the DL then bring him up and put him at 3rd everyday.

[brm7675]

says who, francisco is the better play right now, rolen can watch from his hospital bed, rolen cant stay healthy for more than one day in a row and francisco is the better hitter right now

More powerful hitter I would agree, better overall hitter not a chance. Francisco is still learning, when Healthy Rolen is leaps and bounds better at the plate and in the field.

[nux fan]

disagree rolen is old useless and cant hit any more, lets agree not to repsond to eachothers rantings, you love rolen and I say he has put in one half year of servccie he stunk last year second half iand in the playoffs and this year, If he never played another game for the reds, that would be fine with me

[nux fan]

as for heisey he should play every day as I would send stubbs to the minots over 200 strikeouts is pathetic

[Ohayou]

Unless he proves me otherwise, Francisco playing a full season means almost as many strikeouts with an even worse OBP.

[brm7675]

as for heisey he should play every day as I would send stubbs to the minots over 200 strikeouts is pathetic

so where should the hitting coach be sent?

[nux fan]

the hitting coach can sit with stubbs untile he learns how to "hit " the ball and not provide air conditioning

[brm7675]

the hitting coach can sit with stubbs untile he learns how to "hit " the ball and not provide air conditioning

Maybe the Reds/hitting coach want Stubbs to be a big swinger over a contact hitter...

[nux fan]

he is neither, heisey has power stubbs does not hit home runs like geisey, how many times can you look at the seasons stat sheet and continue to defend third place and stubbs performance

[brm7675]

he is neither, heisey has power stubbs does not hit home runs like geisey, how many times can you look at the seasons stat sheet and continue to defend third place and stubbs performance

Simple we are in third because right now the Brewers and Cards have better talent on the field and in the mag't area then the Reds do. As for Stubbs I expect young players to struggle their first 2-3 years in ML baseball...you don't?

We could have played as well as we did last year this year and still wouldn't have made the playoffs.

[IWasBornInCincy]

Rolen had a .676 OPS this season before injury, and last year in the second half had a .760 OPS. Wow. And he hit 4th. Lol

[brm7675]

Rolen had a .676 OPS this season before injury, and last year in the second half had a .760 OPS. Wow. And he hit 4th. Lol

So it's his fault Dusty hit him 4th?

[IWasBornInCincy]

he shouldnt have even been playing. pitchers have higher OPS all the time

[Vottomatic]

IWasBornInCincy15MinutesAgo

Name change required.

[nux fan]

i was born in cincy is completely correct rolen is yesterdays dross

[brm7675]

he shouldnt have even been playing. pitchers have higher OPS all the time

Again...who writes out the lineup card. Also you do know there is more to this game then just hitting. Your not saying Rolen is a risk in the field also are you?:confused:

[brm7675]

i was born in cincy is completely correct rolen is yesterdays dross

No question Rolen's better years are behind him, but we deal with reality here and as long as he is healthy is going to be the Reds 3rd basemen. You can disagree or dislike it...but I doubt Dusty cares....oh and as long as Dusty is here which will be through next season...Rolen is the Reds 3rd basemen.

[nux fan]

are you thrilled, rolen cant hit half of francisco

the future is young players not inured wrecked retreads

[brm7675]

are you thrilled, rolen cant hit half of francisco

the future is young players not inured wrecked retreads

I don't see greatness in Francisco at all, I see Willy Mo Pena who plays 3rd. I would much rather see them put Yonder at 3rd this winter and let him learn and put him at 3rd over Francisco.

[texasdave]

I don't see greatness in Francisco at all, I see Willy Mo Pena who plays 3rd. I would much rather see them put Yonder at 3rd this winter and let him learn and put him at 3rd over Francisco.

Using the standard brm7675 response - OMG after not even one season you can tell he isn't a major leaguer? WOW! :laugh: You see if brm likes someone they get unlimited chances. But if he doesn't then, well hell anyone can tell after less than 200 ABs that he isn't a major leaguer. LOLOLOL

[brm7675]

Using the standard brm7675 response - OMG after not even one season you can tell he isn't a major leaguer? WOW! :laugh:

No I think he can hit, but I think Yonder is a better quality hitter. If given a choice between the two whom would you rather have on your team if you can only have 1?

[texasdave]

What happened to your 2-3 year no-progress standard? LOL.

[nux fan]

i am not responding any longer to brm he epitomizes the failures of this organization

[brm7675]

What happened to your 2-3 year no-progress standard? LOL.

Juan is a 1 tool player, he hits for incredible power. He will never be an good average or obp guy, his fielding will always be suspect. Now while I am not convinced Yonder is or will ever be a great 3rd basemen, he won't have to be as in 2 years he will be the Reds everyday 1st basemen, with a much better skill at the plate. Juan screams DH...

[brm7675]

i am not responding any longer to brm he epitomizes the failures of this organization

What "failures" of this organization would that be outside of having Dusty as manager?

[nux fan]

no comment

stubbs is great, baker is great, arroyo is great, rolen is durable and getting younger arent you thrilled

[brm7675]

no comment

stubbs is great, baker is great, arroyo is great, rolen is durable and getting younger arent you thrilled

No..

Stubbs is young and learning and may be good or may be bad, we don't know yet.

Baker is horrible, wonderful person no ability to in game manage

Arroyo is durable, an innings eater who more times then not will keep you in a game. Every team needs pitchers like him.

Rolen is old and damaged goods who is loved by his manager and owner due to his past accomplishments and not going anywhere till he decides.

I am extremely thrilled by the franchise as a whole. I do believe a change at manager and hitting coach was called for but didn't happen. But compared to where this franchise was in the 90's and 00's, I will take where we are now any day.

[HalKing]

Obviously if brm was making the decisions Vlad Guerrero would have never gotten a chance to play back when he was breaking in. Sheesh... isn't it rather obvious that Francisco is a Guerrero type offensive player? Vlad never had a high OBP either. Big deal, is moneyball the only way the game is looked at anymore? As far as the nonsense statements that some have made here that they won't believe Francisco can play at the MLB level until he proves it... kinda silly to say the obvious. And if you folks had the final say he wouldn't get his chance to prove himself.

[HalKing]

Also, I'll repeat. I do not think Juan Francisco will ever be an elite fielding thirdbaseman. Average? Yes... above average? Very possible, but there is work to be done to reach that level. Lets put it this way

Did you know the Reds have a thirdbaseman on the roster that once made 38 errors in a season in low-A ball? His name.... Scott Rolen

So don't toss out the fact guys can and often do improve their defense.

[brm7675]

Obviously if brm was making the decisions Vlad Guerrero would have never gotten a chance to play back when he was breaking in. Sheesh... isn't it rather obvious that Francisco is a Guerrero type offensive player? Vlad never had a high OBP either. Big deal, is moneyball the only way the game is looked at anymore? As far as the nonsense statements that some have made here that they won't believe Francisco can play at the MLB level until he proves it... kinda silly to say the obvious. And if you folks had the final say he wouldn't get his chance to prove himself.

Vlad could play defense, move Francisco to the outfield and give him a year at AAA playing LF and maybe, but he is not a 3rd basemen. He is a DH waiting to happen for some lucky AL team.

[brm7675]

Also, I'll repeat. I do not think Juan Francisco will ever be an elite fielding thirdbaseman. Average? Yes... above average? Very possible, but there is work to be done to reach that level. Lets put it this way

Did you know the Reds have a thirdbaseman on the roster that once made 38 errors in a season in low-A ball? His name.... Scott Rolen

So don't toss out the fact guys can and often do improve their defense.

Do you want your 3rd basemen to "learn" the position defensivly on the major league level? I don't, he can learn hitting on this level, but I want a strong defensive player at 3rd.

[nux fan]

he has put in more time at AAA than your hero stubbs, how about sending stubbs the strikeout master to triple AAA to see if he can occasionally HIT the ball??

[nux fan]

let your hero stubbs learn how to hit in the minors

[HalKing]

Vlad could play defense, move Francisco to the outfield and give him a year at AAA playing LF and maybe, but he is not a 3rd basemen. He is a DH waiting to happen for some lucky AL team.


You obviously haven't been watching. Since this is like talking to the wall, I'll just concede... you are always right brm.... you must be magical:laugh:

[HalKing]

Do you want your 3rd basemen to "learn" the position defensivly on the major league level? I don't, he can learn hitting on this level, but I want a strong defensive player at 3rd.


Not paying attention either... his defense is actually pretty dang good now. Even the hyper-critical Marty Brennaman has said as much recently.

[brm7675]

he has put in more time at AAA than your hero stubbs, how about sending stubbs the strikeout master to triple AAA to see if he can occasionally HIT the ball??

Hitting AAA pitching does not = hitting major league pitching. We need to see Stubbs learn to hit major league pitching. There have been a ton of players who could rake at the AAA level and never make it in the show. Stubbs needs to show he can hit major league pitching.

[brm7675]

Not paying attention either... his defense is actually pretty dang good now. Even the hyper-critical Marty Brennaman has said as much recently.

"pretty dang good" well there you go....:laugh:

[nux fan]

205 K's for brm's hero the useless stubbs, who should be converted into a pinch runner at best

205 strikeout 15 homers past pathetic, the only defense that brm offers is that he had a better year in 2010, that is now two years past

Stubbs a classic waste of a first round pick, in their own dugout are beteer alternatives, gibe heisey a whole year and wathc the OPS he produces

Stubbs more strikeout than ANYONE in baseballincluding Reynolds

Unbelievable, and people constantly defend him

[brm7675]

You obviously haven't been watching. Since this is like talking to the wall, I'll just concede... you are always right brm.... you must be magical:laugh:

No I just have a better understanding of the game and of the facts. People here want to make calls without knowing all the info. If you think Juan is ready to play everyday at 3rd, more power to you, dusty doesn't and that is all that matters. If people here think Stubbs isn't a major league hitter, great...Dusty and Walt think different and that is all that matters.

Dusty has said why Heisey isn't an everyday player, and while I have issues with Dusty as manager, he has more access to info on the players then we do and like it or not..is probably a HOF manager.

[brm7675]

205 K's for brm's hero the useless stubbs, who should be converted into a pinch runner at best

205 strikeout 15 homers past pathetic, the only defense that brm offers is that he had a better year in 2010, that is now two years past

Stubbs a classic waste of a first round pick, in their own dugout are beteer alternatives, gibe heisey a whole year and wathc the OPS he produces

Stubbs more strikeout than ANYONE in baseballincluding Reynolds

Unbelievable, and people constantly defend him

1 season, you are basing your entire view off of one season. Again were you here last year at this time screaming for Stubbs to be removed, that he was a waste? I bet not, I bet you were one of those saying Look at what this kid did in his first full season...look at those power numbers...OMG 30+ homeruns and the kid is in his first season. A strike out is an out, no different then any other out. Also I guess you want to get rid of Bruce also, he struck out what like 170 times this year, how many times did he produce in the clutch? Also Homer, I mean really how many outings does this kid get before we relize he is not a major league pitcher? thankfully those in charge understand what is involved with developing talent and come opening day next year Stubbs will be in CF.

[Red Raindog]

No I just have a better understanding of the game and of the facts. People here want to make calls without knowing all the info. If you think Juan is ready to play everyday at 3rd, more power to you, dusty doesn't and that is all that matters. If people here think Stubbs isn't a major league hitter, great...Dusty and Walt think different and that is all that matters.

Dusty has said why Heisey isn't an everyday player, and while I have issues with Dusty as manager, he has more access to info on the players then we do and like it or not..is probably a HOF manager.

I would hope that it would take more than a .520 winning percentange == and that with Barroid Bonds for a good many of the wins == to be a HOF manager

[brm7675]

I would hope that it would take more than a .520 winning percentange == and that with Barroid Bonds for a good many of the wins == to be a HOF manager

Nope...from what I have read and researched those numbers will get him into the HOF. Not saying I agree, but I would be shocked when all is said and done that Dusty doesn't go in as a manager.

[nux fan]

you are so inconsistent and obdurate, give heisey and francisco the same chance that useless stubbs gets and stubbs would be released

[Red Raindog]

1 season, you are basing your entire view off of one season. Again were you here last year at this time screaming for Stubbs to be removed, that he was a waste? I bet not, I bet you were one of those saying Look at what this kid did in his first full season...look at those power numbers...OMG 30+ homeruns and the kid is in his first season. A strike out is an out, no different then any other out. Also I guess you want to get rid of Bruce also, he struck out what like 170 times this year, how many times did he produce in the clutch? Also Homer, I mean really how many outings does this kid get before we relize he is not a major league pitcher? thankfully those in charge understand what is involved with developing talent and come opening day next year Stubbs will be in CF.

I don't think you are being fair here -- I thought Stubbs was going to be a special player after last year --- with the speed and the expectation that he would gain more command of the strikezone this year -- but I saw no sign of progress -- yea -- I saw regression --- so I think it is unfair to say since you were not complaining about last year you have no basis to complain about this year's Stubbs.

I don't think Bruce advanced as I expected this year either -- but he did carry the team for a period -- which I don't think can be said of Stubbs this year.

Homer is a dispappointment along with Wood, Volquez & Bronson -- + Chapman's role + Massett + Ondrusek ==

so there is room to complain about much this year -- and yes that VERY much includes the front office & the bench management

Did I cover all the blame?

[brm7675]

you are so inconsistent and obdurate, give heisey and francisco the same chance that useless stubbs gets and stubbs would be released

I have no problem with giving Heisey the everyday position in LF. I have huge issues with Francisco but sure give him a shot. Problem is the manager of this team doesn't see either right now as everyday players.

[brm7675]

I don't think you are being fair here -- I thought Stubbs was going to be a special player after last year --- with the speed and the expectation that he would gain more command of the strikezone this year -- but I saw no sign of progress -- yea -- I saw regression --- so I think it is unfair to say since you were not complaining about last year you have no basis to complain about this year's Stubbs.

I don't think Bruce advanced as I expected this year either -- but he did carry the team for a period -- which I don't think can be said of Stubbs this year.

Homer is a dispappointment along with Wood, Volquez & Bronson -- + Chapman's role + Massett + Ondrusek ==

so there is room to complain about much this year -- and yes that VERY much includes the front office & the bench management

Did I cover all the blame?

Bruce is what year of his major league career compared to Stubbs? On many occasions players regress their second year because teams know their weakness and maybe Stubbs was a bit overconfident after how well he did last year. I am not saying Stubbs will be a good/great player, at this point we don't have enough data to know. That is why I believe he gets another full year in CF. If there is zero progression or more regression at this point next year then yes you move on, but to bust a players chops after 1 good season and 1 bad season in the bigs isn't fair. Maybe if Dusty would have put him in the 7/8 slot all season, been more selective in whom and when he played Stubbs wouldn't have had such a bad season? We don't know, but he deserves another year.

[Ohayou]

Vlad never had a high OBP either.

Are you joshing around?

[Red Raindog]

Nope...from what I have read and researched those numbers will get him into the HOF. Not saying I agree, but I would be shocked when all is said and done that Dusty doesn't go in as a manager.

Even with his doped players Baker is ranked 88th in winning percentage among all managers.

I would hope you are very wrong.

[Red Raindog]

Bruce is what year of his major league career compared to Stubbs? On many occasions players regress their second year because teams know their weakness and maybe Stubbs was a bit overconfident after how well he did last year. I am not saying Stubbs will be a good/great player, at this point we don't have enough data to know. That is why I believe he gets another full year in CF. If there is zero progression or more regression at this point next year then yes you move on, but to bust a players chops after 1 good season and 1 bad season in the bigs isn't fair. Maybe if Dusty would have put him in the 7/8 slot all season, been more selective in whom and when he played Stubbs wouldn't have had such a bad season? We don't know, but he deserves another year.

I am willing to give him another year -- but he needs to win the job in ST ---

[brm7675]

Even with his doped players Baker is ranked 88th in winning percentage among all managers.

I would hope you are very wrong.

From what I have read, taking 3 different teams to the playoffs, 1 to the WS and being near the top in total wins by a manager will be enough. Won't be a first ballot, but at somepoint will get in.

[nux fan]

so he can do no wrong he is the ultimate arbiter of all things.

boy how old are you three?