Indiana Basketball [Archive] - Page 3 - RedsZone.com - Cincinnati Reds Fans' Home for Baseball Discussion

Assembly Hall

03-11-2013, 05:31 PM

As always, there's more to the story than just that confrontation. Though he is pretty continually amped up to an annoying degree. I'll live with the minor annoyances so long as the wins keep coming.

Lot more to the story than we will probably ever know for sure. Dan Dakich stated on his radio show this morning, that Meyer was in no way part of the problem at IU during the Sampson "era". However, you always have to wonder what Crean's point of view might be on that. Doesnt matter......I will put up with his antics as well and they are the least of my concerns.

Right now I am more focused on CTC's pitiful substitution patterns. The start of this game was eeriely similar to the start of the Illinois game.

Simon Rhymon

03-11-2013, 07:15 PM

Crean might be annoying and act like a jack ass at times, but he brought IU back and put the black mark Sampson left into the past.

Assembly Hall

03-11-2013, 07:53 PM

Crean might be annoying and act like a jack ass at times, but he brought IU back and put the black mark Sampson left into the past.

That is what a lot of people would say about Bob Knight and the mess he took over!!!!!!!!!

Joseph

03-11-2013, 08:06 PM

Congrats Hoosiers! Great season so far.

Revering4Blue

03-11-2013, 08:46 PM

That is what a lot of people would say about Bob Knight and the mess he took over!!!!!!!!!

Indiana was a winning program -devoid of NCAA sanctions/restrictions - with many key components of the '73 Final Four team already in place when Knight took over in '71.

Comparing Knight's first season at IU with CTC's first season at IU is akin to comparing the Blizzard of '78 to Chernobyl, not that Crean was/is the only Major College B-Ball Coach out there to deal with such issues.

Assembly Hall

03-11-2013, 09:06 PM

Indiana was a winning program -devoid of NCAA sanctions/restrictions - with many key components of the '73 Final Four team already in place when Knight took over in '71.

Comparing Knight's first season at IU with CTC's first season at IU is akin to comparing the Blizzard of '78 to Chernobyl, not that Crean was/is the only Major College B-Ball Coach out there to deal with such issues.

NSF my friend......there was improper stuff going on at IU before '71. That is why Knight was hired. Granted the scope is bigger now than what it was then....but there was alot of stuff happening with IU athletics through out the 60's. Improprieties aside(Wooden never got caught) that might be speculation, in fact IU hired a "no non-sense" guy to clean up what they thought was a problem.

The components were there.......minus McGinnis. But to me, that just shows Knight's coaching ability at that time.

Revering4Blue

03-11-2013, 09:43 PM

NSF my friend......there was improper stuff going on at IU before '71. That is why Knight was hired. Granted the scope is bigger now than what it was then....but there was alot of stuff happening with IU athletics through out the 60's. Improprieties aside(Wooden never got caught) that might be speculation, in fact IU hired a "no non-sense" guy to clean up what they thought was a problem.

The components were there.......minus McGinnis. But to me, that just shows Knight's coaching ability at that time.
McGinnis, who left for the ABA before Knight took over, was recruited by Lou Watson.

Anyway, the only IU infractions, at least the major type, at IU around that time were in the Walt Bellamy days (early 60's) and resulted in all IU athletic teams on probation because of -- are you ready for this -- violations within the IU swim team.

That stated, you are correct about the need at the time for a culture change (read: a more structured approach - on and off the court) -- mission accomplished.

Speaking of improprieties - I'm not one to blame officiating as a rule - have you checked out the replay of IU's '73 Final Four loss to to the (Sam Gilbert says :wave:) crooks, er, UCLA team?

The phantom blocking foul against Steve Downing, after IU had whittled a 22 point lead down to four, was ridiculous. It was clearly a charging foul against Bill Walton, which would have been his 5th. In fact, Walton thought he had fouled out, as he started walking back to the UCLA bench before Downing was whistled for the foul. A short time later, Downing picked up his fifth and was gone, along with IU's chances for pulling the upset.

Razor Shines

03-11-2013, 11:18 PM

I liked Crean when he was at Marquette. But over his time at IU I have started to dislike him. I can't stand his antics running all over the court during a game. He is the only coach of a power program that I can think of who does that. I don't know what IU fans think of that but I would like someone to tell him to tone down and if he can't stay within the coaches box he should get a T.

Whoa, so after he became the coach of one of your conference rivals you started to like him less? I am totally shocked by that, flabbergasted! Let me guess he didn't bother you as much early in his time at IU while they were the bed pan of the conference, but I bet sometime last year something strange happened and he became more and annoying. Very strange.

Assembly Hall

03-12-2013, 06:15 AM

McGinnis, who left for the ABA before Knight took over, was recruited by Lou Watson.

Anyway, the only IU infractions, at least the major type, at IU around that time were in the Walt Bellamy days (early 60's) and resulted in all IU athletic teams on probation because of -- are you ready for this -- violations within the IU swim team.

That stated, you are correct about the need at the time for a culture change (read: a more structured approach - on and off the court) -- mission accomplished.

Speaking of improprieties - I'm not one to blame officiating as a rule - have you checked out the replay of IU's '73 Final Four loss to to the (Sam Gilbert says :wave:) crooks, er, UCLA team?

The phantom blocking foul against Steve Downing, after IU had whittled a 22 point lead down to four, was ridiculous. It was clearly a charging foul against Bill Walton, which would have been his 5th. In fact, Walton thought he had fouled out, as he started walking back to the UCLA bench before Downing was whistled for the foul. A short time later, Downing picked up his fifth and was gone, along with IU's chances for pulling the upset.

I still get upset watching that "highlight". Pitiful.

Boston Red

03-12-2013, 09:16 AM

However, you always have to wonder what Crean's point of view might be on that.

Crean should thank Sampson and his staff every day for giving him the opportunity at IU. That SHOULD be his POV.

traderumor

03-12-2013, 09:24 AM

Whoa, so after he became the coach of one of your conference rivals you started to like him less? I am totally shocked by that, flabbergasted! Let me guess he didn't bother you as much early in his time at IU while they were the bed pan of the conference, but I bet sometime last year something strange happened and he became more and annoying. Very strange.Well, you'll have that when you don't really know who the guy is until he forces himself on you. It took more exposure to reveal what a goofball Crean is, and while most goofballs are fun for sport, he is of the type that wants to upplay his accomplishments so that the whole world can see what a great coach and guy he is, which is sickening. Hang that banner, "we've" (when he really means I've) accomplished so much. Aren't "we" (when he really means I) great!

And with all the "I can put up with his annoyances because he's winning" will be what the "faithful" will use to ask for his head when the struggles come. Lather, rinse, repeat. It happens everywhere.

By the way, its all fun and games now, but we are talking about one conference championship here. And he is hailed as king. You folks are suddenly easy to please.

bucksfan2

03-12-2013, 09:36 AM

cumberlandreds

03-12-2013, 09:39 AM

Crean should thank Sampson and his staff every day for giving him the opportunity at IU. That SHOULD be his POV.

Exactly. He should have went up to that Michigan assistant,shook his hand and whole heartily thanked him for him and the others, at that time, for messing up the program. Without that Crean would have still been at Marquette looking for the next Dwayne Wade.

Razor Shines

03-12-2013, 11:48 AM

I actually am not that concerned about OSU fans think of Crean. I was trying to be funny, which I accomplished.

I'm not that concerned with him being a goofball either. As with the cutting down nets and separate banner deal, I just don't take it that seriously. Are we hailing him as King already? I wasn't officially informed but that's cool, I'll start praying to him tonight.

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WMR

03-12-2013, 12:08 PM

IU needs to give him a raise so he can afford a pair of pants that fit.

He looked utterly deranged after being dragged away from the UM assistant.

Razor Shines

03-12-2013, 12:08 PM

I tell you who annoys me though. That Thad Matta. Geez. That male pattern baldness and stuff. I mean come on we get it you're proud of your scalp, do you really have to call attention to it like that? Oh my gosh.

And what's with his substitutions? I mean at several times throughout the game he'll just take a guy out and put another guy in, just switch players!! Come on, just pick 5 guys and stick with them.

And then, and then he thinks he can just stop the game when his team has the ball. Like he'll go up to one of the striped players (who never get to shoot and rarely play defense) and put his hands together to make a what looks like "T" and just stop the game! And the other team allows him to do this. Talk about thinking you're a king. Geez, what a pervert.

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Razor Shines

03-12-2013, 12:10 PM

IU needs to give him a raise so he can afford a pair of pants that fit.

He looked utterly deranged after being dragged away from the UM assistant.

That was a show. It raised money for charity. Don't you feel like a jerk now?

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WMR

03-12-2013, 12:13 PM

That was a show. It raised money for charity. Don't you feel like a jerk now?

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How many schrutebucks did he raise?

Razor Shines

03-12-2013, 12:16 PM

How many schrutebucks did he raise?

What I meant to say was "awareness". Look kids just because you have Tourette's doesn't mean you can't coach a major college basketball team.

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Revering4Blue

03-12-2013, 12:18 PM

Well, you'll have that when you don't really know who the guy is until he forces himself on you. It took more exposure to reveal what a goofball Crean is, and while most goofballs are fun for sport, he is of the type that wants to upplay his accomplishments so that the whole world can see what a great coach and guy he is, which is sickening. Hang that banner, "we've" (when he really means I've) accomplished so much. Aren't "we" (when he really means I) great!

And with all the "I can put up with his annoyances because he's winning" will be what the "faithful" will use to ask for his head when the struggles come. Lather, rinse, repeat. It happens everywhere.

By the way, its all fun and games now, but we are talking about one conference championship here. And he is hailed as king. You folks are suddenly easy to please.

See, for the most part, I've witnessed just the opposite line of thinking here.

IU could go 32-0 and win the Championship under CTC and some folks would still state the following: Yeah, but imagine what (Bob Knight, Brad Stevens, or any other Coach Du Jour) would have done with that team.

Honestly, there is a faction of the IU fanbase that reminds me of the faction of the Packer fan base actually rooting against their own team in the Super Bowl two years ago, just to prove that their (inane) reasoning that the Packers shouldn't have allowed Brett Favre to leave was correct.

According to "fans" like the above, when IU loses it is always Tom Crean's fault; never the result of poor player execution.

No, CTC doesn't walk on water, but that line of "reasoning" gets old in a hurry.

Razor Shines

03-12-2013, 02:08 PM

Exactly. He should have went up to that Michigan assistant,shook his hand and whole heartily thanked him for him and the others, at that time, for messing up the program. Without that Crean would have still been at Marquette looking for the next Dwayne Wade.

Come on now. It took him two years to become Dwyane Wade, don't take him back.

Razor Shines

03-12-2013, 02:09 PM

See, for the most part, I've witnessed just the opposite line of thinking here.

IU could go 32-0 and win the Championship under CTC and some folks would still state the following: Yeah, but imagine what (Bob Knight, Brad Stevens, or any other Coach Du Jour) would have done with that team.

Honestly, there is a faction of the IU fanbase that reminds me of the faction of the Packer fan base actually rooting against their own team in the Super Bowl two years ago, just to prove that their (inane) reasoning that the Packers shouldn't have allowed Brett Favre to leave was correct.

According to "fans" like the above, when IU loses it is always Tom Crean's fault; never the result of poor player execution.

No, CTC doesn't walk on water, but that line of "reasoning" gets old in a hurry.

So much truth in this.

traderumor

03-12-2013, 03:10 PM

Hoosier Red

03-12-2013, 03:18 PM

Well, you'll have that when you don't really know who the guy is until he forces himself on you. It took more exposure to reveal what a goofball Crean is, and while most goofballs are fun for sport, he is of the type that wants to upplay his accomplishments so that the whole world can see what a great coach and guy he is, which is sickening. Hang that banner, "we've" (when he really means I've) accomplished so much. Aren't "we" (when he really means I) great!

And with all the "I can put up with his annoyances because he's winning" will be what the "faithful" will use to ask for his head when the struggles come. Lather, rinse, repeat. It happens everywhere.

By the way, its all fun and games now, but we are talking about one conference championship here. And he is hailed as king. You folks are suddenly easy to please.

I certainly haven't hailed him as a king, and I think I've been fairly consistent in the approach of, "Okay, celebrate this stuff this time because it was a long hard slog, but no more excessive celebrations now that you're back at the top, you're expected to stay there."

As for the winning and losing, I think you make my point. I'm not really defending his personality tics which are moderately annoying, but rather focusing on what I as a fan am asking him to do.

Razor Shines

03-12-2013, 03:25 PM

I've said Stevens is a better coach. Of course that doesn't mean I think Stevens would make a better king.

traderumor

03-12-2013, 04:44 PM

I certainly haven't hailed him as a king, and I think I've been fairly consistent in the approach of, "Okay, celebrate this stuff this time because it was a long hard slog, but no more excessive celebrations now that you're back at the top, you're expected to stay there."

As for the winning and losing, I think you make my point. I'm not really defending his personality tics which are moderately annoying, but rather focusing on what I as a fan am asking him to do.Except we aren't talking about "personality tics," we are talking about how he represents IU, which, when the days aren't so rosy, supporters become critics and the antics wear thin. Ask Bobby Knight. Ask Woody Hayes. You are king and your "personality tics" are tolerable, then medocrity sets in, and suddenly throwing chairs, punching players on the sidelines, and blasting other coaches is bringing shame on the program.

Of course, we know from the Bobby Knight era that winning coaches get a lot, a lot of rope in Hoosier land, excepting recruiting violations.

Hoosier Red

03-12-2013, 07:27 PM

Except we aren't talking about "personality tics," we are talking about how he represents IU, which, when the days aren't so rosy, supporters become critics and the antics wear thin. Ask Bobby Knight. Ask Woody Hayes. You are king and your "personality tics" are tolerable, then medocrity sets in, and suddenly throwing chairs, punching players on the sidelines, and blasting other coaches is bringing shame on the program.

Of course, we know from the Bobby Knight era that winning coaches get a lot, a lot of rope in Hoosier land, excepting recruiting violations.

We'll leave the Bob Knight discussion out of this, because he has about as much relevance to IU today as Woody Hayes does to tOSU>
So tell me what you're referring to specifically? How is he representing the university poorly?

I mean seriously, so far you've mentioned his "antics" but haven't said anything other than walking too far outside the coaching box and coming unglued at an opposing coach at a bad time.

The former was an act he apologized for, and the latter is what I'd describe as a personality tic. It would be like criticizing Thad Matta for chewing gum.

In general, Crean has represented the university quite well. While I can understand why he rubs some people the wrong way, that's a far cry from poorly representing the university.

WMR

03-12-2013, 08:30 PM

Instructing players to flop and fake getting elbowed?

5TimeWSChamps

03-12-2013, 08:34 PM

instructing players to flop and fake getting elbowed?

shh, that's not part of the narrative!

Tom crean is jesus! He's brought iu back from the grave! 3 days dead and they've risen!

traderumor

03-12-2013, 09:28 PM

We'll leave the Bob Knight discussion out of this, because he has about as much relevance to IU today as Woody Hayes does to tOSU>
So tell me what you're referring to specifically? How is he representing the university poorly?

I mean seriously, so far you've mentioned his "antics" but haven't said anything other than walking too far outside the coaching box and coming unglued at an opposing coach at a bad time.

The former was an act he apologized for, and the latter is what I'd describe as a personality tic. It would be like criticizing Thad Matta for chewing gum.

In general, Crean has represented the university quite well. While I can understand why he rubs some people the wrong way, that's a far cry from poorly representing the university.The incident Sunday shows a character flaw. Stay tuned. He also had a sore loser incident with Matta last year. The drama has only begun' his celebrity will only exacerbate the weakness. Pride comes before a fall.

Hoosier Red

03-12-2013, 09:34 PM

Revering4Blue

03-12-2013, 10:12 PM

I can only speak to what I read from two different posters in this thread. What you mention above is not an attitude I've read about in this thread.

That doesn't make what I stated in my original post any less true. It's happening all over Indiana.

You certainly don't believe that this board is an accurate representation of an entire fan base, do you?

Revering4Blue

03-12-2013, 10:25 PM

shh, that's not part of the narrative!

Tom crean is jesus! He's brought iu back from the grave! 3 days dead and they've risen!
Speaking of narratives, you may want to check on the validity of your Crean Is God in the eyes of most IU fans narrative.

It is a heck of a lot easier to believe that the majority of IU fans believe that Crean can do no wrong than to believe what I posted in post #521.

But if anyone, namely yourself, would actually spend a little time frequenting other IU message boards or actually spending a little time in Indiana, you may actually realize that the narrative that you so much wish to be true is actually dead wrong.

But that may require too much time/work, when it is much easier to post over here, while adding nothing of substance to the conversation.

Razor Shines

03-13-2013, 12:30 AM

The incident Sunday shows a character flaw. Stay tuned. He also had a sore loser incident with Matta last year. The drama has only begun' his celebrity will only exacerbate the weakness. Pride comes before a fall.

Character flaw? He's an excitable guy, I'm the same way during competition. It was dumb, funny but dumb. Doesn't seem like a big deal to me. But lets say you're right Dr. Laura, that it is a character flaw. Please tell me what exactly our response as fans should be. You clearly have a problem with how we've responded in this thread. Please, I'm begging you, give me an example of an acceptable post responding to this situation.

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5TimeWSChamps

03-13-2013, 04:33 AM

Speaking of narratives, you may want to check on the validity of your Crean Is God in the eyes of most IU fans narrative.

It is a heck of a lot easier to believe that the majority of IU fans believe that Crean can do no wrong than to believe what I posted in post #521.

But if anyone, namely yourself, would actually spend a little time frequenting other IU message boards or actually spending a little time in Indiana, you may actually realize that the narrative that you so much wish to be true is actually dead wrong.

But that may require too much time/work, when it is much easier to post over here, while adding nothing of substance to the conversation.

I'm in Indianapolis every month, went to the IU-UK game in Bloomington last year, as well as the IU-Butler game and the IU-OSU game (In Columbus) this year.

Everyone in Bloomington eats up his little rah rah act. His sprinting out into the concourse at Assembly after the UK game last year was the main culprit.

I've never been treated worse than I was at that game btw.

Saw how he treated Matta and Stevens in person this year also. IU fans eat it up.

Razor Shines

03-13-2013, 04:46 AM

I'm in Indianapolis every month, went to the IU-UK game in Bloomington last year, as well as the IU-Butler game and the IU-OSU game (In Columbus) this year.

Everyone in Bloomington eats up his little rah rah act. His sprinting out into the concourse at Assembly after the UK game last year was the main culprit.

I've never been treated worse than I was at that game btw.

Saw how he treated Matta and Stevens in person this year also. IU fans eat it up.

Again, what exactly would you like the response to be? Should we be calling for him to be fired because of his "rah rah act"? I mean clearly he's happy to be at Indiana and he lets his enthusiasm get the best of him at times but how exactly would you like us to react?

And how do IU fans "eat up" the way he treated Matta and Stevens?

And how exactly did he treat them? A quick handshake? So he's a sore loser? I've gotta tell you, they're ALL sore losers most just hide it better. I'm sorry I don't really care. And that's not an IU thing. I'm a Colts fan and I think it's silly when other Colts fans call out Tom Brady or Bellichic for being sore losers.

redsfanmia

03-13-2013, 07:38 AM

Who cares? He runs a clean program and recruits well, not sure if he is a great x and o guy. People hating him or being annoyed by him is a good thing, it means he is sucessful.

5TimeWSChamps

03-13-2013, 09:05 AM

Definitely doesn't run a clean program. Check the Gary Harris recruitment

bucksfan2

03-13-2013, 09:59 AM

So tell me what you're referring to specifically? How is he representing the university poorly?

I mean seriously, so far you've mentioned his "antics" but haven't said anything other than walking too far outside the coaching box and coming unglued at an opposing coach at a bad time.

The former was an act he apologized for, and the latter is what I'd describe as a personality tic. It would be like criticizing Thad Matta for chewing gum.

In general, Crean has represented the university quite well. While I can understand why he rubs some people the wrong way, that's a far cry from poorly representing the university.

Winning trumps everything. If you a winning coach who acts like an idiot you can overlook that if he is winning. I can't remember a coach of a big name program who runs up and down the sidelines the way Crean does. Someone may want to tell him that he is coaching IU not some Mid Major who he needs to get excited.

At IU it should be about hanging National Championship Banners, not B1G title banners. If Miami gets excited about their first ACC Basketball Championship I don't have a problem with that, when a blue blood program gets that excited about a conference championship it doesn't seem right.

Crean is starting to remind me a lot of his brother in law Jim. Good coach, overly excitable, but it can rub people the wrong way.

redsfanmia

03-13-2013, 10:20 AM

Definitely doesn't run a clean program. Check the Gary Harris recruitment

He did turn himself in, is any big time program truly clean? I am not in love with Crean myself, I would prefer to have Brad Stevens.

Razor Shines

03-13-2013, 11:42 AM

So not one of you can tell me how my response as an IU fan should be different.

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traderumor

03-13-2013, 01:56 PM

Well I'll probably stay tuned. But thanks for the heads up.

Maybe I'm just accepting because I have so many flaws of my own, but I'm guessing I've revealed far more and more revealing character flaws in the last 13 months than the two you mentioned.

At least I'm not proud, so no fall for me.What do your personal struggles have to do with Crean doing his job? The "we're all human" defense?

So when you evaluate the job your coach is doing you only care about wins and losses because that's what he's paid to do, so if someone else thinks that tune will change if the performance changes, they are judgmental? Interesting way to view the world.

traderumor

03-13-2013, 02:01 PM

That doesn't make what I stated in my original post any less true. It's happening all over Indiana.

You certainly don't believe that this board is an accurate representation of an entire fan base, do you?Is that your expectation for someone to form an opinion about what they are hearing out of a fan base, that you have to do a longitudinal study of all Hoosier related sites, check the Hoosier friendly newspapers, read several Hoosier blogs, just to make a statement about what I'm reading from Hoosier fans on this board? Frankly, I'm glad I don't meet those qualifications.

traderumor

03-13-2013, 02:02 PM

So not one of you can tell me how my response as an IU fan should be different.

Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkNot biting. To give you another opportunity for your self-proclaimed humorous responses? Pass.

Razor Shines

03-13-2013, 02:07 PM

Not biting. To give you another opportunity for your self-proclaimed humorous responses? Pass.

I'm a borderline comedic genius, so if I post something that doesn't seem very funny to you, just assume you're wrong and its actually hilarious.

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Razor Shines

03-13-2013, 02:15 PM

Is that your expectation for someone to form an opinion about what they are hearing out of a fan base, that you have to do a longitudinal study of all Hoosier related sites, check the Hoosier friendly newspapers, read several Hoosier blogs, just to make a statement about what I'm reading from Hoosier fans on this board? Frankly, I'm glad I don't meet those qualifications.

Are we really saying what you claim we're saying? Who here has given Crean a blanket pass? Several of us admit that while we like Crean we'd take Stevens if given the choice.

What exactly is Tom's major sin we should be condemning? He's a little kooky and excitable? I agree he acts similar to his bro in laws, but I don't see anything really wrong with their behavior either. It's not the norm for coaches, that is for sure but I don't have a problem with it and I'm certainly no fan of either of the teams the Harbaughs coach.

I honestly don't see what the big deal is. This seems a lot like last year when you tried to claim that IU fans on this board ha such high expectations of last years team that we were going to be crushed when they didn't make the Final Four or win a championship. And that wasn't true of us either.

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Hoosier Red

03-13-2013, 02:51 PM

What do your personal struggles have to do with Crean doing his job? The "we're all human" defense?

So when you evaluate the job your coach is doing you only care about wins and losses because that's what he's paid to do, so if someone else thinks that tune will change if the performance changes, they are judgmental? Interesting way to view the world.

I think you miss the point.
You said Crean represents the University poorly. When asked how he represents the university poorly, you mentioned two specific incidents which you said, showed his true character. Obviously for any specific time he's acted improperly, I could point out a number of different times he's acted in a manner which I believe shows his character in a positive light. So rather than make it a tit for tat positive example for negative example which would prove nothing, I was pointing out that no person's character should be reduced to two specific incidents over 1 year apart.

Most of the things you've mentioned are a part of his personality, which while I can see why it's annoying, don't really reflect badly on the university.

I can imagine sitting in an interview, and the interviewer says, "We'd like to offer you the job, but we can't value a degree from a university that can't keep its coach in his coaching box."

He's definitely exciteable, and he definitely claps too damn much.

But really when I'm looking for a coach, the number of claps per game is not a metric I'm going to value very highly.

In general, I think you've projected a lot of feelings of IU fans which aren't accurate. Many of us are quite critical of Crean, and we're perfectly happy to discuss which ticks annoy us the most. But it just seems silly to say the guy's a bad guy or should be run out of town because he shakes hands too fast after a loss.

traderumor

03-13-2013, 06:33 PM

I think you miss the point.
You said Crean represents the University poorly. When asked how he represents the university poorly, you mentioned two specific incidents which you said, showed his true character. Obviously for any specific time he's acted improperly, I could point out a number of different times he's acted in a manner which I believe shows his character in a positive light. So rather than make it a tit for tat positive example for negative example which would prove nothing, I was pointing out that no person's character should be reduced to two specific incidents over 1 year apart.

Most of the things you've mentioned are a part of his personality, which while I can see why it's annoying, don't really reflect badly on the university.

I can imagine sitting in an interview, and the interviewer says, "We'd like to offer you the job, but we can't value a degree from a university that can't keep its coach in his coaching box."

He's definitely exciteable, and he definitely claps too damn much.

But really when I'm looking for a coach, the number of claps per game is not a metric I'm going to value very highly.

In general, I think you've projected a lot of feelings of IU fans which aren't accurate. Many of us are quite critical of Crean, and we're perfectly happy to discuss which ticks annoy us the most. But it just seems silly to say the guy's a bad guy or should be run out of town because he shakes hands too fast after a loss.First off, the incident after the UM game was very, very bad, shrug your shoulders if you like, but that was grave dancing and it is never appropriate and should have received a reprimand for doing so publicly. His team had just won a championship, and he goes after an assistant coach to essentially say, "suck it buddy" when he should have been celebrating with his players that he just loves so much. But what is he doing? Self-promoting by taking digs at others.

He also has made accusations of Matta and his assistant's recruiting practices, as well as other programs. I wasn't even referring to his sore loser handshake. Maybe that's no big deal to you and "only two incidents," but it makes me wonder what the magic number for incidents is in Hoosier land. Is it one for each conference team?

Couple that with the grandstanding, and you have a loose cannon that happens to not be quite so politically incorrect as another former Indiana coach, but no less offensive and dangerous. Honestly, if you like that he has brought a championship and that's good enough for you, that is telling as well.

You attempt to minimize my comments as "complaining about personality quirks," even though I've honed in on specific confrontations that are burning bridges around the league. That is why I say stay tuned, not because of all the minor stuff you keep on trying to claim my comments are focused on.

If I were only talking about annoying stuff, like his hairdo and his sideline antics, you'd be right on. But, is that what I have been talking about? Not me. You are projecting what others have said onto me.

traderumor

03-13-2013, 06:35 PM

Are we really saying what you claim we're saying? Who here has given Crean a blanket pass? Several of us admit that while we like Crean we'd take Stevens if given the choice.

What exactly is Tom's major sin we should be condemning? He's a little kooky and excitable? I agree he acts similar to his bro in laws, but I don't see anything really wrong with their behavior either. It's not the norm for coaches, that is for sure but I don't have a problem with it and I'm certainly no fan of either of the teams the Harbaughs coach.

I honestly don't see what the big deal is. This seems a lot like last year when you tried to claim that IU fans on this board ha such high expectations of last years team that we were going to be crushed when they didn't make the Final Four or win a championship. And that wasn't true of us either.

Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkWell, your team is a number one seed this year, so I guess we have to wait and see how things go when the sun isn't shining over IU bball, won't we?

Razor Shines

03-13-2013, 08:52 PM

Well, your team is a number one seed this year, so I guess we have to wait and see how things go when the sun isn't shining over IU bball, won't we?

Nah, I'm not the psychotic fan riding the pendulum that you apparently think that I am. I don't think the other posters on this board are either. We're gonna be just fine.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23DIN42SDK0

Hoosier Red

03-13-2013, 09:24 PM

First off, the incident after the UM game was very, very bad, shrug your shoulders if you like, but that was grave dancing and it is never appropriate and should have received a reprimand for doing so publicly. His team had just won a championship, and he goes after an assistant coach to essentially say, "suck it buddy" when he should have been celebrating with his players that he just loves so much. But what is he doing? Self-promoting by taking digs at others.

He also has made accusations of Matta and his assistant's recruiting practices, as well as other programs. I wasn't even referring to his sore loser handshake. Maybe that's no big deal to you and "only two incidents," but it makes me wonder what the magic number for incidents is in Hoosier land. Is it one for each conference team?

Couple that with the grandstanding, and you have a loose cannon that happens to not be quite so politically incorrect as another former Indiana coach, but no less offensive and dangerous. Honestly, if you like that he has brought a championship and that's good enough for you, that is telling as well.

You're right, the personality quirks were brought up by Bucksfan who's never seen the coach of a big time program run up and down the sidelines like Crean does.

I'm not trying to minimize anything. The stuff after the Michigan game was a bad moment, no doubt. But when he privately and publicly apologizes, it seems a bit silly to continue rail on it.

Anyways the specific incidents you are bringing up are all basically personal disagreements between Crean and the other coaches that should not be handled in public, but were and the most recent episode he apologized for. The "allegations about Matta and his assistants" was nothing more than speculation about a semi-cryptic tweet from two years ago. *If you have more details about the story than I do, please share.*

Now, do I like the coach getting in these petty arguments? No, of course not. But does that make him offensive and dangerous? No.

But to be perfectly clear, I'm not defending Crean because he's winning in this situation. I am defending him from the accusation of being offensive and dangerous because each issue is basically a personal disagreement with some specific coaches and I don't know enough about the details to say that he's in the wrong.

Maybe I just don't know enough so feel free to educate me.

traderumor

03-14-2013, 11:20 AM

Nah, I'm not the psychotic fan riding the pendulum that you apparently think that I am. I don't think the other posters on this board are either. We're gonna be just fine.

Great, my comments were never directed at any one poster in particular, but were an overall observation based on what I had been reading throughout the last two seasons. And you gave me a chuckle with the outtake.

traderumor

03-14-2013, 11:26 AM

You're right, the personality quirks were brought up by Bucksfan who's never seen the coach of a big time program run up and down the sidelines like Crean does.

I'm not trying to minimize anything. The stuff after the Michigan game was a bad moment, no doubt. But when he privately and publicly apologizes, it seems a bit silly to continue rail on it.

Anyways the specific incidents you are bringing up are all basically personal disagreements between Crean and the other coaches that should not be handled in public, but were and the most recent episode he apologized for. The "allegations about Matta and his assistants" was nothing more than speculation about a semi-cryptic tweet from two years ago. *If you have more details about the story than I do, please share.*

Now, do I like the coach getting in these petty arguments? No, of course not. But does that make him offensive and dangerous? No.

But to be perfectly clear, I'm not defending Crean because he's winning in this situation. I am defending him from the accusation of being offensive and dangerous because each issue is basically a personal disagreement with some specific coaches and I don't know enough about the details to say that he's in the wrong.

Maybe I just don't know enough so feel free to educate me.I'm just making a prediction based on years of watching behavioral patterns, and he seems to be a firecracker--shooting up real fast, bursts into lots of pretty colors, implodes shortly thereafter and is next found coaching Middle Tennessee State.

cumberlandreds

03-14-2013, 11:37 AM

Hoosier Red

03-14-2013, 12:12 PM

I'm just making a prediction based on years of watching behavioral patterns, and he seems to be a firecracker--shooting up real fast, bursts into lots of pretty colors, implodes shortly thereafter and is next found coaching Middle Tennessee State.

I understand that perception. I don't think it's necessarily accurate that he's shot up real fast, so I'm not sure I'd say he's likely to implode. (If he were I'd think we'd have seen it before now.)

Revering4Blue

03-14-2013, 02:05 PM

Thrilling finish in the Illinois / Minnesota BIG tourney.

I.U gets another crack at the Illini.

But, if both Illinois and Minnesota don't get in the big dance, something is wrong.

Assembly Hall

03-15-2013, 11:01 AM

Holy cow! I go out of town for a few days and I come home to this?:lol: My God, it aint rocket science fellas.

Revering4Blue

03-15-2013, 07:44 PM

http://www.insidethehall.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/360dipo.gif

Assembly Hall

03-15-2013, 07:53 PM

OLA-DIPO......OLA-DIPO.....OLA-DIPO......OLA-DIPO..........feel free to join in!!!!!!!!

traderumor

03-15-2013, 08:37 PM

OLA-DIPO......OLA-DIPO.....OLA-DIPO......OLA-DIPO..........feel free to join in!!!!!!!!The first 360 in the history of IU? :lol:

Assembly Hall

03-15-2013, 08:47 PM

The first 360 in the history of IU? :lol:

Real funny. You better go back and check out that '81 team. Hell, go check out the early 90's teams. :p

traderumor

03-16-2013, 12:13 PM

Real funny. You better go back and check out that '81 team. Hell, go check out the early 90's teams. :pOh, by the reaction, I thought maybe it was something new for you. I'm glad my teams didn't go 20 years between highlights. :D

Assembly Hall

03-16-2013, 03:13 PM

Oh, by the reaction, I thought maybe it was something new for you. I'm glad my teams didn't go 20 years between highlights. :D

Well evidently you arent a Reds fan then?:D

thatcoolguy_22

03-18-2013, 11:07 AM

The dunk was nasty. How does everyone feel about IU's chances at a final 4 run this year?

Razor Shines

03-18-2013, 11:24 AM

The dunk was nasty. How does everyone feel about IU's chances at a final 4 run this year?

Decent. They played well in the tourney last year. I think it's sometimes forgotten how well they played against Kentucky in the Sweet 16. Many people said at the time that had IU been playing anyone but that Kentucky team they'd have won.

I also wouldn't be totally shocked if they got beat in the round of 32.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

bucksfan2

03-18-2013, 11:54 AM

Decent. They played well in the tourney last year. I think it's sometimes forgotten how well they played against Kentucky in the Sweet 16. Many people said at the time that had IU been playing anyone but that Kentucky team they'd have won.

I also wouldn't be totally shocked if they got beat in the round of 32.

I don't like the way IU finished its season. I also would be worried about a potential draw of NC State in the second. A potential match up with Syracuse could loom later.

My worries about IU would be if they can't force the tempo and are forced to play a different brand of basketball. If they play their style they aren't going to lose. I do look forward to an IU Miami match up, that could be a classic.

SunDeck

03-18-2013, 01:07 PM

The dunk was nasty. How does everyone feel about IU's chances at a final 4 run this year?

I don't think IU's chances are any better or worse than the other #1 seeds. Or probably 16 other teams.
What I don't like about IU is how they have run hot and cold; it would be much better if the team were bringing things together, improving upon each game, but their progress has been more halting all season.

Razor Shines

03-18-2013, 04:24 PM

I don't like the way IU finished its season. I also would be worried about a potential draw of NC State in the second. A potential match up with Syracuse could loom later.

My worries about IU would be if they can't force the tempo and are forced to play a different brand of basketball. If they play their style they aren't going to lose. I do look forward to an IU Miami match up, that could be a classic.

All very valid points.

Simon Rhymon

03-20-2013, 11:36 AM

There aren't any teams in the field that are strong both offensively and defensively on a consistent basis. Heck, even the #1 seed Louisville frequently has trouble scoring the ball. That's what makes this year so interesting. There is no way that 4 of the top 8 seeds will get to the Final Four ... not exactly a bold prediction, though. :rolleyes:

RichRed

03-20-2013, 09:49 PM

Looking forward to watching my Dukes go up against the Hoosiers on Friday! Try to take it easy on us, huh? We're not used to this postseason stuff.

Here's to a good game!

Revering4Blue

03-21-2013, 12:28 AM

Looking forward to watching my Dukes go up against the Hoosiers on Friday! Try to take it easy on us, huh? We're not used to this postseason stuff.

Here's to a good game!

:beerme:

I figured if the Dukes could just keep it close at the half until Goins returned to action, they'd pull it off.

It's been awhile, but JMU has a Giant-killing NCAA tourney history.

I remember all too well.

1994 0-1 Lost to Florida in first round, 64-62

1983 1-1 Defeated West Virginia in first round, 57-50
Lost to North Carolina in second round, 68-49

1982 1-1 Defeated Ohio State in first round, 55-48
Lost to North Carolina in second round, 52-50

1981 1-1 Defeated Georgetown in first round, 61-55
Lost to Notre Dame in second round, 54-45

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/tournament/history/_/team1/6261

IMHO, though, the '91 team with Steve Hood was the best JMU team that I can recall. Alas, they were upset by Navy in the Conference tourney and relegated to the N.I.T.

Revering4Blue

03-21-2013, 12:40 AM

Speaking of Rayshawn Goins, JMU's 6-6 265lb forward, I believe that he is precisely the type of enforcer that I.U needs. IMHO, that is about the only major chink in IU's armour.

The hope was that Masquera-Perea would fill that role, but I believe that he ( in the future ) at least has the ability to provide IU - and this comparison dates back quite a while ago to my Senior Year of High School in '86 - what Andre Harris provided - an athletic shot blocking presence at PF.

But unfortunately, Andre Harris wound up flunking out of school.

Assembly Hall

03-21-2013, 07:00 AM

Andre Harris? Now that is a blast from the past!

RichRed

03-21-2013, 02:42 PM

:beerme:

I figured if the Dukes could just keep it close at the half until Goins returned to action, they'd pull it off.

It's been awhile, but JMU has a Giant-killing NCAA tourney history.

I remember all too well.

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/tournament/history/_/team1/6261

IMHO, though, the '91 team with Steve Hood was the best JMU team that I can recall. Alas, they were upset by Navy in the Conference tourney and relegated to the N.I.T.

I was a senior at JMU that year. Those were the days.

gilpdawg

03-21-2013, 03:07 PM

Andre Harris? Now that is a blast from the past!

Andre Harris can jump over the rim but he calls all the managers by the name of Jim!

That's a Season on the Brink reference for those who haven't read it, BTW.

Sent from my Transformer TF101 using Tapatalk HD

RichRed

03-22-2013, 06:31 PM

Congrats, Hoosiers! Future looks bright for us with Cooke and Nation, but the Dukes were definitely overmatched.

Assembly Hall

03-22-2013, 07:54 PM

Congrats, Hoosiers! Future looks bright for us with Cooke and Nation, but the Dukes were definitely overmatched.

You fellas never gave up the entire game. Congrats to the Dukes on a great season, and best of luck to ya in the years to come.

Strikes Out Looking

03-24-2013, 07:42 PM

I am excited for the sweet sixteen game and will be in attendance on Thursday night. Hopefully, IU will play like they did the last 3 minutes of today's game.

WVRed

03-29-2013, 08:33 AM

*crickets*

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk 2

SunDeck

03-29-2013, 09:44 AM

*crickets*

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk 2

That's what Kirkwood ave. sounds like this morning. Just a note, on my way in I realized that Bloomington recently passed an ordinance against keeping sofas, recliners and such on front porches, which may explain why I didn't notice any smoldering heaps in front yards.

What a turd they laid, but congratulations should go to Boeheim for putting the clamp down on another high powered offense. I suppose any astute UC fan might have been able to warn the Hoosier faithful what was coming, but having not been paying attention to the Big East for a couple years, I had forgotten how nasty that zone could be. It was unsolvable for IU.

Hoosier Red

03-29-2013, 09:49 AM

*crickets*

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk 2

FUUUUUUUUDGE!
There you have it. Just a complete debacle from start to finish. Team looked flustered from the opening tip. Not sure where they go from here.

traderumor

03-29-2013, 09:57 AM

joshnky

03-29-2013, 11:20 AM

Simon Rhymon

03-29-2013, 11:31 AM

Boeheim is the best zone coach I've ever seen. Plus he recruits the type of players that fit into the zone. They aren't the most gifted offensive team and occasionally they are awful on that end of the floor, but usually the zone overcomes their deficiencies. Zeller's lack of upper body strength and his tendency to hold the ball low when going up for an inside shot played into Syracuse's hands, but he'll get better. IU had a great season and they are not the first high quality team to get knocked out. Such is life ... they'll be back, but that's no consolation to them, I am sure.

Hoosier Red

03-29-2013, 11:58 AM

I hate the zone in general, think its a lazy defense and would only play it if my personnel left me no option to play man D. So few programs still even play zone other than to switch things up. But the Syracuse zone is different. And it was smothering last night. Having watched my team fall with a bad matchup come tourney time, I felt really bad for the Hoosiers last night.

Great season guys, hate to see it end that way.

The high school team I broadcast plays a system very similar to this zone defense. This year they were very successful and I saw a number of opponents look just like IU, completely unsure and hesitant when throwing passes. There were nights when it looked like it was a major accomplishment for a team to put up a terrible shot because that means they hadn't turned it over. Seeing IU with more turnovers than FGA for most of the first half made me think of Mt. Vernon.

Razor Shines

03-29-2013, 01:45 PM

*crickets*

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk 2

Oh you're so very clever and original. You should submit a screen play based on that post.

WVRed

03-29-2013, 02:31 PM

Oh you're so very clever and original. You should submit a screen play based on that post.

Nothing trolling, just making reference to the activity (or lack thereof) up to the following posts. There was no discussion during and immediately following the game thread.

With that being said though something I have kinda thought about after last night's loss, has Crean taken Indiana as far as he can possibly take them? It's a fair question IMO. When it comes to expectations, Indiana is on the same level as Kentucky, and even though IU had a lot to rebuild from after Kelvin Sampson, I can't help but think IU fans are disappointed in not taking a major step forward with this team. With Hulls and Watford graduating, and Zeller and Oladipo likely headed to the draft, its going to be a rebuilding year for IU, although they should still be a top team in the B1G.

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk 2

RiverRat13

03-29-2013, 09:39 PM

Revering4Blue

03-29-2013, 11:02 PM

With that being said though something I have kinda thought about after last night's loss, has Crean taken Indiana as far as he can possibly take them?

Too early to ask this question, IMO. Despite coaching talent -laden teams year after year, it took Dean Smith and Roy Williams years to win their first banners. Yes, it was a golden opportunity to win it all in a season with no team head - and - shoulders above everyone else, like U.K last year. But it seems ridiculous to assume that this was Crean and Indiana's last chance to win it, no matter how well other Schools recruit.

If Crean continues to do what no Indiana Coach has done in awhile - continue to recruit actual talent - they'll have a reasonable shot to win it all in a "survive and advance" system where the best team doesn't always win it all.

As for the expectations, most of them were based on the Freshman Class making a large impact, which we all know, for various reasons, didn't happen. As a result, a perceived strength - the bench - turned out to be a weakness.

As for my expectations, throwing out what Razor Shines referred to as the "bed pan" years at I.U, I'll take where the I.U program is now over getting blown out in the First Round by "powerhouses" like Boston College, Colorado, and Pepperdine, when I.U was clearly the much more talented team. Those years were a heck of a lot more frustrating to me than last night's loss to a respected program coached by a legend.

redsfanmia

03-30-2013, 04:07 PM

As for my expectations, throwing out what Razor Shines referred to as the "bed pan" years at I.U, I'll take where the I.U program is now over getting blown out in the First Round by "powerhouses" like Boston College, Colorado, and Pepperdine, when I.U was clearly the much more talented team. Those years were a heck of a lot more frustrating to me than last night's loss to a respected program coached by a legend.

Those teams played like they just wanted the season to end and honestly were not that talented.

Assembly Hall

03-30-2013, 07:46 PM

Those teams played like they just wanted the season to end and honestly were not that talented.

LMAO!!!!!! Well fill us in there "Einstein". The team that got beat by Pepperdine was pretty dang good. A.J. Guyton could play for me any day of the week, Kirk Haston was solid, and Dane Fife could play some "D". Not talented?

Assembly Hall

03-30-2013, 07:49 PM

*crickets*

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk 2

Yeah, whatever man. Btw how was the NIT?:lol:

5TimeWSChamps

03-30-2013, 07:52 PM

Yeah, whatever man. Btw how was the NIT?:lol:

Last 4 years: (Pick which team you would take)

Elite 8, Final Four, National Title, NIT

No Postseason, No Postseason, S16 (With rings), S16 (TBD)

redsfanmia

03-30-2013, 08:01 PM

LMAO!!!!!! Well fill us in there "Einstein". The team that got beat by Pepperdine was pretty dang good. A.J. Guyton could play for me any day of the week, Kirk Haston was solid, and Dane Fife could play some "D". Not talented?

If they were so talented why did they get smacked in the tournament by powerhouse Pepperdine?

redsfanmia

03-30-2013, 09:40 PM

Yeah, whatever man. Btw how was the NIT?:lol:

Been an Indiana fan since 1981, don't be that fan, Indiana fan should be better than that.

Revering4Blue

03-30-2013, 11:07 PM

If they were so talented why did they get smacked in the tournament by powerhouse Pepperdine?

While I agree with AH that the latter Knight coached teams mentioned were significantly more talented than the teams that blew them out in the NCAAs - some of them arguably as talented as the 2002 NC runner up team - I believe that you hit the nail on the head about the aforementioned teams playing as if they couldn't wait for the season to end; a sign that Knight's methods were no longer working with highly-touted recruits for whatever reason.

Translation: Top - flight talent was, and still is, a necessity at a school such as I.U and the days of getting it done (read: National Championships) with a group of overachievers willing to buy into a certain rigid system - like Knight's - were/are over.

Also, top -flight, or even diamond - in -the -rough recruits like Oladipo, are not going to sign with a School just because of the uniform.

If that were the case, blue-chippers would have flocked to UK during the Tubby Smith and Billy Clyde years. They want to play for Calipari, first and foremost.

Highly touted players want to play for Crean that wouldn't have given the Mike Davis led program a passing glance.

You're not going to come close to winning a National championship at a school like IU without the ability to recruit top-flight talent. If nothing else, Crean has proven he can recruit and develop players. Replacing Crean with an excellent X and O coach, who may well not run a desirable system for top-flight recruits and / or hasn't shown the ability to recruit top -flight talent Nationwide is a considerable risk, IMO. And coaches who can do both don't grow on trees and are settled into great situations of their own.

Just something to think about.

Assembly Hall

03-31-2013, 07:55 AM

If they were so talented why did they get smacked in the tournament by powerhouse Pepperdine?

Haston breaking his hand in the early minutes of it?

Assembly Hall

03-31-2013, 07:57 AM

Been an Indiana fan since 1981, don't be that fan, Indiana fan should be better than that.

I know what you are saying and appreciate it........however the post **crickets** didn't sit well with me. :beerme:

Assembly Hall

03-31-2013, 08:10 AM

While I agree with AH that the latter Knight coached teams mentioned were significantly more talented than the teams that blew them out in the NCAAs - some of them arguably as talented as the 2002 NC runner up team - I believe that you hit the nail on the head about the aforementioned teams playing as if they couldn't wait for the season to end; a sign that Knight's methods were no longer working with highly-touted recruits for whatever reason.

Translation: Top - flight talent was, and still is, a necessity at a school such as I.U and the days of getting it done (read: National Championships) with a group of overachievers willing to buy into a certain rigid system - like Knight's - were/are over.

Also, top -flight, or even diamond - in -the -rough recruits like Oladipo, are not going to sign with a School just because of the uniform.

If that were the case, blue-chippers would have flocked to UK during the Tubby Smith and Billy Clyde years. They want to play for Calipari, first and foremost.

Highly touted players want to play for Crean that wouldn't have given the Mike Davis led program a passing glance.

You're not going to come close to winning a National championship at a school like IU without the ability to recruit top-flight talent. If nothing else, Crean has proven he can recruit and develop players. Replacing Crean with an excellent X and O coach, who may well not run a desirable system for top-flight recruits and / or hasn't shown the ability to recruit top -flight talent Nationwide is a considerable risk, IMO. And coaches who can do both don't grow on trees and are settled into great situations of their own.

Just something to think about.

The Pepperdine game was an anomaly. However, the ones before that were not. Knight got the talent, it just never came to fruition for the Hoosiers. In the "end" days he did better with the less heralded players such as Guyton and Haston while fellas like Collier and Recker went by the wayside.

Regardless, IU just got beat by a better team on that day.

Assembly Hall

03-31-2013, 08:13 AM

Last 4 years: (Pick which team you would take)

Elite 8, Final Four, National Title, NIT

No Postseason, No Postseason, S16 (With rings), S16 (TBD)

Too bad it is a "what have you done for me lately world"!;)

Hillsdale87

04-01-2013, 08:30 AM

With that being said though something I have kinda thought about after last night's loss, has Crean taken Indiana as far as he can possibly take them? It's a fair question IMO. When it comes to expectations, Indiana is on the same level as Kentucky, and even though IU had a lot to rebuild from after Kelvin Sampson, I can't help but think IU fans are disappointed in not taking a major step forward with this team. With Hulls and Watford graduating, and Zeller and Oladipo likely headed to the draft, its going to be a rebuilding year for IU, although they should still be a top team in the B1G.

I don't think that loss was a huge surprise to IU fans. The issues that people had recognized all season showed up in this game. IU was a great team but didn't really have a guy they could go to when they really needed a score. They were soft all season and struggled against physical teams. While they were very good, they had limitations, and Syracuse was able to capitalize on those.

Crean also has his shortcomings. I don't have as big an issue with his Xs and Os as some do. I think his gameplan for Syracuse was correct. They needed to get the ball to the high post to draw in the zone to kick it out to the wings or to a slasher on the baseline. However, Zeller seemed scared to look at the hoop when he got the ball there, so he wasn't forcing any movement in the zone. Then, when he actually did try to make a play, he was completely soft and ineffective and required no help. If you can't attack the middle of the zone with your best player, you aren't going to beat Syracuse. I think Crean's primary shortcoming is in his substitution patterns. It's great to have a deep bench, but at some point you need to tighten up the rotation and stick with your stars. But Crean never did that, and it cost them in their losses this year.

That said, Indiana will still be very good next year. I would be shocked if Oladipo is back, but I could potentially see Zeller back next year. If he makes a commitment to working on his low post game, developing right and left handed jump hooks, bulking up and going stronger to the hoop, and developing a mid range shot, he could really up his draft stock. It's a risk because he could potentially fall even farther, but it might be worth it. Next year they'll have Yogi and Sheehey for sure in the starting lineup. Hollowell will probably take Watford's spot. Also, while they've got nothing on Kentucky, their recruiting class is very good, and they've got a few guys that should start/contribute from day 1. I expect them to still be a top 15 team next year.

Hoosier Red

04-01-2013, 08:42 AM

That said, Indiana will still be very good next year. I would be shocked if Oladipo is back, but I could potentially see Zeller back next year. If he makes a commitment to working on his low post game, developing right and left handed jump hooks, bulking up and going stronger to the hoop, and developing a mid range shot, he could really up his draft stock. It's a risk because he could potentially fall even farther, but it might be worth it. Next year they'll have Yogi and Sheehey for sure in the starting lineup. Hollowell will probably take Watford's spot. Also, while they've got nothing on Kentucky, their recruiting class is very good, and they've got a few guys that should start/contribute from day 1. I expect them to still be a top 15 team next year.

The interesting thing about Zeller is that he apparently has a good mid range(and beyond) jump shot. But he's never really felt comfortable using it because early in the season, there was ALWAYS someone hot so it was always a lower percentage shot than the offense could generate otherwise , and by the time it got into the meat of the schedule he probably didn't really feel as comfortable with it. If he comes back, the offense is going to be a lot more dependent on him which is both good and bad.

That said, he's a fool to come back. Forget all the people saying he's not ready. He's ready to be a top 15-top 20 pick. Last year he would have been a top 10 pick. Even if he "gets better" he might still slide in the draft if he comes back next year.

Hillsdale87

04-01-2013, 08:48 AM

The interesting thing about Zeller is that he apparently has a good mid range(and beyond) jump shot. But he's never really felt comfortable using it because early in the season, there was ALWAYS someone hot so it was always a lower percentage shot than the offense could generate otherwise , and by the time it got into the meat of the schedule he probably didn't really feel as comfortable with it. If he comes back, the offense is going to be a lot more dependent on him which is both good and bad.

That said, he's a fool to come back. Forget all the people saying he's not ready. He's ready to be a top 15-top 20 pick. Last year he would have been a top 10 pick. Even if he "gets better" he might still slide in the draft if he comes back next year.

Apparently at the first practice of the season, which was open to the public, he was draining three pointers in shoot around. He needs to work on getting his shot off his shoulder though. Both on his jump shot and in the lane his release is far too low. He's definitely one of the most athletic and graceful big men in the game, so if he forced people to guard him 15 feet from the hoop, he would be unstoppable.

I agree that he should go because there's a risk of falling more. However, his stock was not going to be any higher than it was after last year. After this year, he could theoretically improve his stock by a fair bit. Probably just the musings of a delusional fan, but I think he'll at least strongly consider coming back. :)

Hoosier Red

04-01-2013, 09:19 AM

Hillsdale87

04-01-2013, 10:01 AM

I wouldn't completely write off him coming back and I agree with most of what you said. Though one reason I don't think his NBA stock has suffered as much as people think is that I don't he's going to play center.

If you asked me to compare him to any current player in the NBA(Upside) it would be Tim Duncan. And while Duncan is theoretically a center, he plays much more like a power forward than a true center.

I think his future is as a PF too (he would get eaten alive by somebody like Howard or Bynum), but he currently plays like a center. Most offensive power forwards have a reliable jump shot. Currently he's Pau Gasol lite. Very lite.

Revering4Blue

04-01-2013, 11:38 AM

Taken from an ESPN Chad Ford chat from 3/26 - before the IU/Syracuse debacle.

Ray (Indiana)

Any chance Oladipo or Zeller stay in Bloomington for next year?
Chad Ford
(1:36 PM)

Think Oladipo is gone for sure. He's going to be a Top 5-6 pick. Zeller might be a bigger question mark. Some scouts love him, many don't. His stock is a bit more volatile. Not sure where he lands and whether he'd be better off returning for a year to add strength and a jump shot to his game.

Hoosier Red

04-09-2013, 01:46 PM

Not a surprise in the least but IU announced Victor Oladipo will forego his final season of eligibility and go to the NBA Draft. Godspeed Victor!

Not sure what to make of Cody not announcing yet, perhaps getting some negative feedback?

WMR

04-09-2013, 02:53 PM

Hillsdale87

04-09-2013, 02:56 PM

Zeller is announcing tomorrow afternoon. I'd love it if he stays, but I doubt it. WMR is right. He needs to learn to make better use of his height. No excuse for all those blocked shots against a smaller Syracuse front line. His release is way too low, especially when he goes left.

Razor Shines

04-09-2013, 05:12 PM

gilpdawg

04-09-2013, 07:50 PM

bucksfan2

04-10-2013, 11:49 AM

A problem I noticed with zeller is that he hunches over when he goes to the rim which ends up making him considerably smaller than he actually is. He needs to stay more upright. NBA bigs will make those Syracuse bigs seem like a fond memory if he doesn't get that corrected.

Especially this season, Zeller became more of a finesse player. He was the guy who took his man away from the basket to beat him off the dribble. He went low to gain leverage and was pretty good at blowing buy guys. Crean's style was to get out and run and beat the team down the court something Zeller was very good at. I think that plays a reason why he plays "smaller" especially at the rim.

I didn't think Zeller was the type of player who liked a whole lot of contact. The key to beating IU this season was to turn the game into a physical game. I think Zeller needs to get stronger physically and stronger around the rim. The thing is I don't know if Crean's style is conducive to that.

SunDeck

04-10-2013, 11:58 AM

Herald Times just posted that Zeller is declaring for the draft today.

Wonderful Monds

04-10-2013, 02:54 PM

Herald Times just posted that Zeller is declaring for the draft today.

Not sure if that's the best idea for him.

gilpdawg

04-10-2013, 06:03 PM

Not sure if that's the best idea for him.

Tyler is a solid rotation player in Cleveland, and if Cody fills out a little more I think Cody has better skills, so he may be a project, but I think he'll be OK. Not a star but a solid rotation guy.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

Razor Shines

04-10-2013, 06:31 PM

Not sure if that's the best idea for him.

Of course it is. Even if he improves he will still most likely be drafted lower next year than this year.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

WVRed

04-10-2013, 08:21 PM

Of course it is. Even if he improves he will still most likely be drafted lower next year than this year.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

This draft is considerably weaker than what next years will be. If Zeller stayed this year, he might as well just stay four years. I actually wouldn;t have been shocked if the Big Handsome would have been a four year player. :p

New York Red

04-10-2013, 08:30 PM

Revering4Blue

04-10-2013, 10:48 PM

IU fans must be sick. They had one season in which to end their drought, and they didn't even come close. How long do you guys give Crean? Other than being a really creepy guy, he doesn't appear to be much of a coach. IU deserves better.

I certainly can't speak for all I.U fans, but no offense, this is silly. Last year was Crean's only chance to win a title at IU? Seriously?

Rather than expound on this again, I'll simply refer you to posts #590 and #597.

Hillsdale87

04-10-2013, 10:55 PM

Are you referring to a national championship drought? Because although Crean hasn't done that yet, he has again placed IU as one of the elite programs in the country, which it hasn't been since Knight was fired. They won the Big 10 title for the first time in 20 years. IU has a top recruiting class coming in next year. And Crean will continue to bring in top recruiting classes. Considering where the program was 5 years ago, I don't know how IU fans could be anything be enthusiastic.

Wonderful Monds

04-11-2013, 12:21 AM

Of course it is. Even if he improves he will still most likely be drafted lower next year than this year.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Likely so, but I think developing before getting to the NBA would've been in his best interest. He's got major flaws IMO, ones that have been discussed the past couple pages.

Hopefully he develops fast, otherwise he might end up washing out before he gets a real chance.

5TimeWSChamps

04-11-2013, 04:56 AM

Revering4Blue

04-11-2013, 10:57 AM

A perennial Sweet 16 program in a position to bring in Top Ten rated recruited classes, and actually accomplishing such, qualifies as an Elite program.

As of now, FCC, LaSalle and Oregon haven't. That is the difference.

After falling short of the Sweet 16, Is UNC no longer an Elite Program? A rational thinking College CBB fan will say "yes".

Hoosier Red

04-11-2013, 11:47 AM

IU fans must be sick. They had one season in which to end their drought, and they didn't even come close. How long do you guys give Crean? Other than being a really creepy guy, he doesn't appear to be much of a coach. IU deserves better.

Anybody sick over the status of the program is delusional. Just curious why you would believe the window was only one year?

It's a lot like we mentioned with the Reds for years, if everything has to go exactly right in one year, you've probably got a bad plan. What a program needs to do is replenish its talent with a consistent run of 4-5-6 man classes. Some of the talent will not work out, some of the talent will skip to the NBA after a year or 2 or 3 and some of it will develop over the course of 4 years.

Then it all comes down to how well each group meshes together and of course a little luck.

Hillsdale87

04-11-2013, 11:53 AM

Really? A Sweet 16 means you are one of the elite programs in the Country?

Congrats Florida Gulf Coast, LaSalle, and Oregon!!!

IU was ranked #1 for most of the season and won the most difficult conference in college basketball. They peaked too early, but they were the best team in the nation for a good part of the year.

bucksfan2

04-11-2013, 12:02 PM

Anybody sick over the status of the program is delusional. Just curious why you would believe the window was only one year?

It's a lot like we mentioned with the Reds for years, if everything has to go exactly right in one year, you've probably got a bad plan. What a program needs to do is replenish its talent with a consistent run of 4-5-6 man classes. Some of the talent will not work out, some of the talent will skip to the NBA after a year or 2 or 3 and some of it will develop over the course of 4 years.

Then it all comes down to how well each group meshes together and of course a little luck.

The whole "were better off now than we were 5 years ago" line of thinking is getting old. Your IU basketball, you supposed to be good. It takes 1-2 years to build a club from nothing to something, especially with IU's pedigree.

IU may have tough sledding next season. Losing Hulls, Oladipo, Zeller and Watford is going to be a tough task to overcome. The only guy currently on their roster who has a chance at becoming a B1G award winner next season is Ferrell.

Hillsdale87

04-11-2013, 12:21 PM

The whole "were better off now than we were 5 years ago" line of thinking is getting old. Your IU basketball, you supposed to be good. It takes 1-2 years to build a club from nothing to something, especially with IU's pedigree.

IU may have tough sledding next season. Losing Hulls, Oladipo, Zeller and Watford is going to be a tough task to overcome. The only guy currently on their roster who has a chance at becoming a B1G award winner next season is Ferrell.

It's not a quick turnaround when you have to start from scratch. And the program right now is better off than it has been since Knight was there. Sure they had a great run under Davis in 2002, but that was fool's gold. Davis was a horrible coach, and what followed was not surprising.

Next year's team will not be as good as this year's was, but they still have a good chance to be very good. Sheehey will be an above average starter. They have a 6'9" freshman coming in that is a projected 2014 lottery pick. And they have 2 other 6'8" guys who were top 40 recruits last year. They will need contributions from somewhat unknown commodities, but the talent is there. They won't be as good as OSU or MSU, but those two teams could easily be top 5.

Hoosier Red

04-11-2013, 04:45 PM

The whole "were better off now than we were 5 years ago" line of thinking is getting old. Your IU basketball, you supposed to be good. It takes 1-2 years to build a club from nothing to something, especially with IU's pedigree.

IU may have tough sledding next season. Losing Hulls, Oladipo, Zeller and Watford is going to be a tough task to overcome. The only guy currently on their roster who has a chance at becoming a B1G award winner next season is Ferrell.

I agree. But I'm not sure what in my post says that IU is in good shape only relative to 5 years ago.

And next year will be a new challenge. Replacing 4 different 1,000 point scorers will require a lot of people to perform more consistently. But I'm still not sure why that means the window was one year. If they don't continue to improve next year, the programs' slated to go down hill forever?

Razor Shines

04-11-2013, 05:23 PM

IU fans must be sick. They had one season in which to end their drought, and they didn't even come close. How long do you guys give Crean? Other than being a really creepy guy, he doesn't appear to be much of a coach. IU deserves better.

Another brilliant post, Steinberg.

^Get out your Arrested Development quotes, it comes back May 26th.

Revering4Blue

04-11-2013, 07:45 PM

After falling short of the Sweet 16, Is UNC still an Elite Program? A rational thinking College CBB fan will say "yes".

This is how it should read.

It seems that somebody - I won't mention any names - forgot his second cup of morning coffee.

Revering4Blue

04-11-2013, 08:09 PM

From Seth Davis's early Top 20 poll for next year.

16. Indiana

Yes, the Hoosiers are losing a lot, but this wasn’t just a great team — it’s a great program. Yogi Ferrell should be one of the nation’s top point guards as a sophomore, and Tom Crean is bringing in a top-five recruiting class led by Noah Vonleh and Troy Williams.

http://m.si.com/2767536/kentucky-michigan-state-top-the-not-too-early-2013-14-rankings/

The Hoosiers have six players signed for the 2013-14 season, headlined by Noah Vonleh, a top-10 recruit out of New Hampton (N.H.) School.

Troy Williams of Oak Hill (Va.) Academy, Stan Robinson of Findlay (Nev.) Prep and Luke Fischer of Germantown (Wis.) High School round out the group’s consensus top-150 picks, and state products Devin Davis of Warren Central and Collin Hartman of Indianapolis Cathedral will also wear the cream and crimson.

The class is ranked No. 6 in the nation according to the 247Composite, a service from 247Sports.com that compiles rankings from the major recruiting sites – Rivals, Scout, ESPN.com and itself – into one ranking.

“The other recruits and I, we’re going to try to make as big an impact as they did,” said Williams, a 6-6 shooting guard who is ranked 46th in the nation by 247Composite. “We got a lot of athletic people coming in, we got a lot of people who can play inside and out. … All over the court, we’ll create mismatches.”

http://www.journalgazette.net/article/20130411/SPORTS0301/304119971/1008/SPORTS

fearofpopvol1

04-13-2013, 04:23 PM

Jay Bilas has IU ranked #10 going into next season.

Also, Remy Abell is transferring next season too.

Razor Shines

04-13-2013, 04:33 PM

Hillsdale87

04-13-2013, 04:33 PM

BillDoran

04-13-2013, 06:30 PM

The news about Abell is somewhat disappointing. I was hoping that he would be a solid contributor next season. But I guess the good news is that he's transferring because he doesn't think he'll get much playing time next year, so Crean must have a lot of confidence that the guys coming in will be able to contribute right away.

I find Abell's transfer a bit vexing myself. I thought he was a shoe-in for big minutes next year, likely to be one of the more dependable players on the roster with a decent shot at a breakout year. Even more baffling is the lack of depth at the 2. I suppose now the minutes are up for grabs between Mo Creek, Stan Robinson, and maybe Colin Hartman.

At the end of the day, one of the scholarship players needed to go (or one of the recruits Patterson'd), just really surprised Crean went with Abell.

REDblooded

04-14-2013, 04:13 PM

I find Abell's transfer a bit vexing myself. I thought he was a shoe-in for big minutes next year, likely to be one of the more dependable players on the roster with a decent shot at a breakout year. Even more baffling is the lack of depth at the 2. I suppose now the minutes are up for grabs between Mo Creek, Stan Robinson, and maybe Colin Hartman.

At the end of the day, one of the scholarship players needed to go (or one of the recruits Patterson'd), just really surprised Crean went with Abell.

Yeah... Abell was the only player that acted like he had any clue on how to handle a zone... He's the only one I can remember pass faking and then swinging the ball opposite. Lead to a 3.

Hoosier Red

04-24-2013, 04:54 PM

IU now 1 below scholly limit as Maurice Creek says he'll graduate in May and head elsewhere.

http://scoop.hoosiershq.com/2013/04/indiana-announces-that-maurice-creek-will-transfer/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

REDblooded

04-25-2013, 08:21 PM

OVERSIGNING!

Playadlc

06-03-2013, 05:24 PM

Boss.

http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=FsGsAhBKG84&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DFsGsAhBKG84%26feature%3 Dyoutu.be

Hoosier Red

06-03-2013, 07:00 PM

dabvu2498

06-04-2013, 10:09 AM

Also hats off to the Hoosier baseball team who earned the first regional championship in school history.

They take on FSU in the Super Regional, even if they lose, at least they'll have Sweet 16 rings. :D

Coach Smith may be the best all-around college coach in the country. I also grew up playing with their pitching coach. Annnnnnd... Their stud catcher is from my hometown.

So I guess I'm rooting for the Hoosiers a bit this weekend. :runaway:

Hoosier Red

06-04-2013, 10:22 AM

IIRC one of the posters' (Razor Shines?) younger brother who was going to play Baseball for the Hoosiers? If so, congrats especially to him.

Boston Red

06-04-2013, 11:14 AM

It is impressive. IU is a tough place to win. The Big Ten is a pretty lousy baseball league, and all your local prospects want to go much further south. Nevermind the issues with trying to pull players out of the south to get them to come north.

Razor Shines

06-05-2013, 03:58 PM

IIRC one of the posters' (Razor Shines?) younger brother who was going to play Baseball for the Hoosiers? If so, congrats especially to him.

That was me. He was only offered a very small scholarship at IU and he was offered a full ride somewhere else, so he took that.

Still I'm excited for IU.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Hoosier Red

06-09-2013, 04:48 PM

Hoosiers going to OMAHA!

Florida State was 35-4 at home this year, hadn't lost a series at home in over two years, and gave up fewer than 3 runs/game as a staff. So of course IU scores 21 runs over two games and sweeps the SuperRegional.

Boston Red

06-09-2013, 06:37 PM

Six outs from a Louisville/IU match-up in Omaha. Growing up in Louisville, I never thought I would see the day that would happen. Hell, I wouldn't have expected to see that happen at noon yesterday!

thatcoolguy_22

06-17-2013, 11:45 AM

Look out for IU (http://scores.espn.go.com/ncaa/baseball/cws/recap?gameId=330615183&league=CWS). They won their first game in Omaha on the back of 138 pitch complete game 4 hit shutout against Louisville.

This run is absolutely crazy.

Boston Red

06-17-2013, 12:52 PM

I went to Saturday night's game. It was brutally boring. I love baseball, but 3:45 minutes for a 2-0 game in which one of the teams never mounted a serious threat (okay, the Cards did have one guy thrown out at the plate, but he was out by 45 feet, so how serious was that threat exactly?).

Congrats to the Hoosiers, though. Hope the Cards get to see them again Wednesday or Friday.

Assembly Hall

06-21-2013, 08:50 AM

WMR

06-21-2013, 09:45 AM

I am just shaking my head.

He's back! :laugh:

Has your period of mourning finally ended? :D

I saw a sharp looking back to back sweet 16 t shirt the other day, did you pick one up?

Razor Shines

06-21-2013, 07:13 PM

He's back! :laugh:

Has your period of mourning finally ended? :D

I saw a sharp looking back to back sweet 16 t shirt the other day, did you pick one up?

I really like my "The Streak Ends at 25 Years" T-Shirt so I took it in and had the "5" turned into a "6". Looks great. I'll have to wait a couple years but that'll be really easy to make into an "8"

Assembly Hall

06-21-2013, 08:16 PM

He's back! :laugh:

Has your period of mourning finally ended? :D

I saw a sharp looking back to back sweet 16 t shirt the other day, did you pick one up?

LOL......that is funny bro. Actually, the spring is my busiest time of year business wise. Just haven't had much time to get on here. My apologies are extended to all UK fans, 'cause I am sure they missed me all tooooooo much, you included of course!;)

I did pick up a sweet looking tee the other day from my Aunt(UK fan)........on the front it shows the 'Cats hoisting a championship trophy......on the the back it shows a dead cat in a dumpster. Priceless. Need me to get you one? :D

Good to have things slowing down with work where I can relax a tad bit more and concentrate on the important stuff, the internet!!!!!!!

BTW, WMR.....I did see your former 'Cat jumped ship in my state. James Blackmon left Fort Wayne Bishop Luers to coach his alma mater....the Marion(IN) Giants. I will be watching what he does with that school.

WMR

06-22-2013, 02:33 AM

Is anyone willing to lay down some predictions for what sort of a pro Zeller will become? I'll be amazed if he is ever a consistent starter in the NBA.

Assembly Hall

06-22-2013, 09:53 AM

Is anyone willing to lay down some predictions for what sort of a pro Zeller will become? I'll be amazed if he is ever a consistent starter in the NBA.

I take it you don't want one of those shirts?:lol:

When it comes to the NBA, I make no predictions. Have seen too many can't miss guys fall off the radar and go into the toilet. Seen guys that I gave no shot to become stars become stars. I really don't know what to give the chances of Zeller of being a major contributor for a team in the pros. Time will tell, but I wish him all the success in the world.

Hoosier Red

06-22-2013, 03:33 PM

I agree WMR, I'd be surprised if he's a consistent starter, but it wouldn't surprise me at all if he's still in the league 10 years from now contributing to a good team. He has a lot of interesting skills, good touch, very fast, quick hands for a big man. So he'll likely be a really good piece to come off the bench for a good team and a sometime starter for a bad one.

Assembly Hall

06-22-2013, 03:57 PM

I personally think he would look great in a Pacer uniform!!!!!!!!!!!;)

Revering4Blue

06-22-2013, 11:33 PM

Is anyone willing to lay down some predictions for what sort of a pro Zeller will become? I'll be amazed if he is ever a consistent starter in the NBA.

Ceiling: LaMarcus Aldridge.

Floor: Josh McRoberts.

Most likely NBA comp: Spencer Hawes, as I expect Zeller to bulk up some and surprise everyone with his ability to hit the outside shot.

In Crean's offense, Zeller was chained to the low post, rarely given the freedom to showcase his ability to shoot from the outside.

gilpdawg

06-23-2013, 03:05 AM

Is anyone willing to lay down some predictions for what sort of a pro Zeller will become? I'll be amazed if he is ever a consistent starter in the NBA.
I think he'll be a solid contributor eventually, but not ever a big star. And that's ok. Every team needs guys like that.

Now Oladipo, I think he's going to do very well. His ceiling is high and even at his floor he'll be able to be a good defender and high energy guy.

Assembly Hall

06-23-2013, 08:42 AM

One thing I will say about Zellar...he never dominated at the collegiate level. He did put up good numbers, but his two years were spent on a couple of pretty darn good teams. How does that translate to the next level? I have no idea. It is a different style of play and a completely different talent level. Cody was a heralded player that went to a heralded school. The odds are stacked against anyone succeeding in the NBA but more so in Cody's case. How many great NBA players have came from IU?

WMR

06-24-2013, 08:07 PM

Dipo has a huge ceiling, IMO. I don't think he's come anywhere close to realizing his full potential.

redsfanmia

06-24-2013, 08:40 PM

Dipo has a huge ceiling, IMO. I don't think he's come anywhere close to realizing his full potential.

Why? He works hard, is smart and has improved every year.

WMR

06-24-2013, 08:48 PM

Why? He works hard, is smart and has improved every year.

I think you misunderstood me. He's already very good, I'm saying he has the potential to become much, much better.

Assembly Hall

06-25-2013, 06:30 AM

I think you misunderstood me. He's already very good, I'm saying he has the potential to become much, much better.

I completely agree. :thumbup:

Hoosier Red

06-25-2013, 10:17 AM

I think you misunderstood me. He's already very good, I'm saying he has the potential to become much, much better.

One factor in Oladipo's talent that would entice me as a general manager with a high draft pick is we already know how he reacts to a losing situation.

How many times with the Bengals bad old days did you see players who lost more in the first 8 weeks than they had lost in their entire college career. They'd come in ready to change the team's attitude, then they'd lose the first four games and you could see them mentally check out and start counting down the days until they could sign somewhere else. Of course the joke was on them because they usually played like garbage and could only re-sign with the Bengals.

In any event, a team saw how Vic reacted to a bad situation. He steadily improved his own play and never let the losing in the first two years detract him from bringing energy to the floor every night. He, along with the Seniors who really were in on the ground floor, brought IU's level of play up, rather than letting the programs' current situation bring them down. I would think that would be useful for a team that won somewhere between 20-29 games.

redsfanmia

06-25-2013, 04:45 PM

I think you misunderstood me. He's already very good, I'm saying he has the potential to become much, much better.

Yep I misread your post, I thought you were saying you thought he wouldn't reach his potential.

Assembly Hall

06-26-2013, 09:40 AM

In any event, a team saw how Vic reacted to a bad situation. He steadily improved his own play and never let the losing in the first two years detract him from bringing energy to the floor every night.

If I aint mistaken Vic played only three years. The last two on some pretty good IU teams. He tasted a lot of defeat one year. I understand what you are saying or trying to. The kid is a tireless worker and has always given 110%. I suspect he might very well have the makings of a perennial all-star if he carries it to the next level.

Hoosier Red

06-26-2013, 03:45 PM

You're right AH, he didn't come when it was at the bottom, but it wasn't too many steps above the bottom when he got there.

Not quite Mike Santa and two guys from the baseball team seeing minutes, but definitely a losing situation that desperately needed some guys with the attitude to fix it.

Assembly Hall

06-26-2013, 03:58 PM

WMR

07-03-2013, 08:25 AM

Interesting article in the Wall Street Journal...

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887323936404578577752033384718.html

Razor Shines

07-03-2013, 12:08 PM

Interesting article in the Wall Street Journal...

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887323936404578577752033384718.html

Oh so you do think Zeller is a top 5 pick. Cause I thought you said it would be silly to think Zeller is a 15-10 guy in the NBA.

You gotta pick one. Either Zeller is an ok player that should have gone in the mid 1st round, MJ made a psychotic reach drafting him 4 and Indiana shouldn't be on this list. Or Zeller is a legit NBA top 5 pick stud. I don't care which.

But we both know you're going with option C: criticize IU, their players and fans whenever and however you can even if the stories aren't always consistent.

Yaaaaaay thinking you're better than people because of the college your root for!

WMR

07-03-2013, 12:20 PM

Oh so you do think Zeller is a top 5 pick. Cause I thought you said it would be silly to think Zeller is a 15-10 guy in the NBA.

You gotta pick one. Either Zeller is an ok player that should have gone in the mid 1st round, MJ made a psychotic reach drafting him 4 and Indiana shouldn't be on this list. Or Zeller is a legit NBA top 5 pick stud. I don't care which.

But we both know you're going with option C: criticize IU, their players and fans whenever and however you can even if the stories aren't always consistent.

Yaaaaaay thinking you're better than people because of the college your root for!

:eek:

Interesting projection, bro.

Why so serious? ;) Odd post coming from you.

Razor Shines

07-03-2013, 12:33 PM

:eek:

Interesting projection, bro.

Why so serious? ;) Odd post coming from you.

Cram it out your cram hole.

I was trying to be funny about the last two parts. I tried to let you know I was kidding in the "Hate" thread.

But that article is dumb. Everybody is saying how dumb the Bobcats were for taking Zeller at 4, no way he's a 4 overall pick but let's use the fact that he was picked in the top 5 as a way to criticize IU.

WMR

08-15-2013, 03:02 PM

Hoosier Red

08-15-2013, 03:24 PM

Do you guys think Crean needs to adjust his recruiting strategy? It seems like taking commitments of highly regarded players as freshmen rarely works out.

Blackmon and Lyles have now both decommitted.

Do you guys think Exum will play in college? Supposedly Indiana is a big player for him.

Yes I definitely think IU should get out of the business of offering scholarships to pre-freshmen.

The good news is they likely already have. When Lyles and Blackmon committed, it was actually pretty necessary in terms of momentum towards the rebuild. Remember they committed even before Zeller, Ferrell, Perea, etc...

Now Indiana's re-established themselves as a high level program, and they're not in the desperate position they were 3-4 years ago.

From everything I've heard(which isn't much) if Exum plays in college, it will likely be at IU, but it's hard to see him bothering to play in college at all. Especially for a kid who grew up in another country, I don't think playing college ball would have that much appeal.

IU (currrently) has two open scholarships for 2014. I have no doubt they'll be taken by quality players, but I refuse to get too worked up over which players specifically.

BillDoran

08-15-2013, 03:48 PM

Yes I definitely think IU should get out of the business of offering scholarships to pre-freshmen.

The good news is they likely already have. When Lyles and Blackmon committed, it was actually pretty necessary in terms of momentum towards the rebuild. Remember they committed even before Zeller, Ferrell, Perea, etc...

Now Indiana's re-established themselves as a high level program, and they're not in the desperate position they were 3-4 years ago.

From everything I've heard(which isn't much) if Exum plays in college, it will likely be at IU, but it's hard to see him bothering to play in college at all. Especially for a kid who grew up in another country, I don't think playing college ball would have that much appeal.

IU (currently) has two open scholarships for 2014. I have no doubt they'll be taken by quality players, but I refuse to get too worked up over which players specifically.

I highly doubt we see Exum play college ball. A few months ago, he said he was 90/10 in favor of playing at a U.S. college. Recently, he's lowered that to 50/50. And now Chad Ford and co. are calling him a top three pick in next year's talented draft. The way this is trending, hard to imagine not heading directly to the NBA.

I've heard some scuttlebutt about him coming over in January. Apparently, he receives his high school diploma this winter and has considered the possibility of joining a program at that juncture. Not sure how that benefits any party involved, but it's been bandied about.

Hoosier Red

08-21-2013, 10:23 AM

Calbert Cheaney heading to SLU to work under former Hoosier Jim Crews.

http://www.indystar.com/article/20130820/SPORTS/308200086?sf16330794=1

It's odd in one sense because he turned down a similar position on Crean's staff just last year, but now accepts the one offered in St. Louis.

Razor Shines

11-12-2013, 08:23 PM

There's actually a very good reason for that and you're going to feel silly after I let you in on the secret.

Tom has a rare disease that causes his body to evacuate itself like he died as soon as the final horn sounds a loss. The other Big Ten coaches are aware of this. So you see the "blow bys" are a courtesy to them. You do not want to be anywhere near Crean for more than a second before he's showered after a loss.

He spent nearly his entire salary on suits his first two seasons.

You can apologize anytime you like.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I bet Tom is doubled over in the locker room right now saying: "Not this early in the season, I didn't bring a change of clothes."

redsfanmia

11-13-2013, 03:19 PM

Razor Shines

11-14-2013, 02:53 AM

Well let us know when you get that figured out.

WMR

11-14-2013, 04:22 PM

Well let us know when you get that figured out.

Want me to draw up a list? :lol: ;)

Hoosier Red

11-14-2013, 04:43 PM

I find it very hard to root for Tom Creen, there is just something about him that bothers me. I found myself rooting against the Hoosiers last night, there was a time when I never missed a game now I find myself just not caring.

Good thing Indiana's coach is Tom Crean. :)

You're definitely not alone. I think his personality rubs alot of people the wrong way. A lot of the things he says come off as self-aggrandizing. He's also pretty notoriously thin skinned.

gilpdawg

11-14-2013, 07:59 PM

Good thing Indiana's coach is Tom Crean. :)

You're definitely not alone. I think his personality rubs alot of people the wrong way. A lot of the things he says come off as self-aggrandizing. He's also pretty notoriously thin skinned.

People who defend some of Coach Knight's bad behavior are annoyed with CREAN'S personality! I will never understand my home state.

And to be fair, I liked Knight too, but he's not a good guy, and his teams weren't that good from 94-95 ish on. So it was time. At least in my eyes, his act had grown tiresome about 2 years before the Kent Harvey thing.

redsfanmia

11-14-2013, 08:09 PM

People who defend some of Coach Knight's bad behavior are annoyed with CREAN'S personality! I will never understand my home state.

And to be fair, I liked Knight too, but he's not a good guy, and his teams weren't that good from 94-95 ish on. So it was time. At least in my eyes, his act had grown tiresome about 2 years before the Kent Harvey thing.

Coach Knight should have gone once he lost interest in recruiting.

I just haven't warmed up to Crean, I'm not a fan of his offense and I'm not a fan of his over signing. I am holding out hope that there is an interest in bringing in Brad Stevens if he flames out in Boston.

gilpdawg

11-14-2013, 08:13 PM

Coach Knight should have gone once he lost interest in recruiting.

I just haven't warmed up to Crean, I'm not a fan of his offense and I'm not a fan of his over signing. I am holding out hope that there is an interest in bringing in Brad Stevens if he flames out in Boston.

That's fair. To me, no matter what happens from now I will respect Crean for being the guy who came in when the program was basically dead in the water and building it back to respectability. I'm not sure he's the guy to hang a banner though, and that's the goal here.

redsfanmia

11-14-2013, 08:18 PM

That's fair. To me, no matter what happens from now I will respect Crean for being the guy who came in when the program was basically dead in the water and building it back to respectability. I'm not sure he's the guy to hang a banner though, and that's the goal here.

I respect him for rebuilding the program but doubt he leads IU to a Final Four yet alone a championship.

gilpdawg

11-14-2013, 09:20 PM

I respect him for rebuilding the program but doubt he leads IU to a Final Four yet alone a championship.

Well heck.. we're pretty much on the same page then. :beer:

Hoosier Red

11-15-2013, 03:44 PM

People who defend some of Coach Knight's bad behavior are annoyed with CREAN'S personality! I will never understand my home state.

And to be fair, I liked Knight too, but he's not a good guy, and his teams weren't that good from 94-95 ish on. So it was time. At least in my eyes, his act had grown tiresome about 2 years before the Kent Harvey thing.

Don't mistake me for defending one at the expense of the other. It's quite possible they're both jerks.
I'm fairly indifferent to Crean. But mainly because I'm not looking to date him, I don't really care what he's like personally.

Just win baby. And if he does that enough, he can be as self aggrandizing and disingenuous as he likes. If he doesn't, his personality won't likely matter a whole lot.

WMR

11-15-2013, 04:59 PM

Don't mistake me for defending one at the expense of the other. It's quite possible they're both jerks.
I'm fairly indifferent to Crean. But mainly because I'm not looking to date him, I don't really care what he's like personally.

Just win baby. And if he does that enough, he can be as self aggrandizing and disingenuous as he likes. If he doesn't, his personality won't likely matter a whole lot.

What does Crean need to accomplish the next 2-3 seasons to prove he deserves to remain IU's coach?

As a rival fan, I'm pretty happy with Crean at Indiana. Sort of how other fans felt during the latter Tubby and BCG eras.

gilpdawg

11-15-2013, 06:25 PM

Don't mistake me for defending one at the expense of the other. It's quite possible they're both jerks.
I'm fairly indifferent to Crean. But mainly because I'm not looking to date him, I don't really care what he's like personally.

Just win baby. And if he does that enough, he can be as self aggrandizing and disingenuous as he likes. If he doesn't, his personality won't likely matter a whole lot.

I didn't mean for it to look like I was pointing at you specifically, just a segment of the fanbase in general who still think Knight was perfect and bash Crean. Sort of like those Reds fans who compare everything to the BRM, even though it would be virtually impossible to replicate those days in the free agent era.

gilpdawg

11-15-2013, 06:27 PM

What does Crean need to accomplish the next 2-3 seasons to prove he deserves to remain IU's coach?

As a rival fan, I'm pretty happy with Crean at Indiana. Sort of how other fans felt during the latter Tubby and BCG eras.

A deep tourney run or two would be nice. It's been a long time since Indiana has even been past the round of 16. Just getting to the Elite 8 would buy him some more time in my eyes.

fearofpopvol1

11-16-2013, 01:48 AM

Razor Shines

11-20-2013, 07:27 AM

Want me to draw up a list? :lol: ;)

John Calipari is an excellent coach and seems like a nice guy.

Boom, kill 'em with kindness. Guys, we're going with "kill 'em with kindness" until further notice.

Hoosier Red

11-20-2013, 09:11 AM

I don't really mind Crean's personality...BUT...he was badly miscoached last year against Boeheim. Indiana should have gone to the final 4 at a minimum. Tom Crean has appeared to be oblivious to Zone defense, which is fine in the Big 10...but not fine when you start to play Big East teams or other worthy tournament teams.

I don't think Indiana fans care so long as Crean's teams win the games they are supposed to win. Last year, losing that Butler game and that Wisconsin game at home was bad. Some of the road losses were bad too, but they lost games that they shouldn't have last year.

Admittedly, I'm a coachpologist* at heart. I always find it interesting that Crean is seen as lacking for games like Butler and Wisconsin, but doesn't get credit for a superb coaching job beating Michigan, Michigan State, and THE Ohio State University on the road.

Obviously, no one was happy with how the season ended, but it shouldn't take away from the fact they won what was far and away the toughest league in the nation.

That was a talented team that had big flaws, just like every talented team last year. There's a reason the #1 ranking passed hands roughly every week.

Unfortunately Syracuse's strengths were able to exploit those flaws.

It's all passed now, IU has looked pretty much as advertised this year, but I think depending on the progress of Troy Williams/Jeremy Hollowell and other role players, the team will be in the mix for the B1G title.

*Seriously between Dusty and Crean, embattled coaches ought to pay me to defend them.

fearofpopvol1

11-20-2013, 07:12 PM

Admittedly, I'm a coachpologist* at heart. I always find it interesting that Crean is seen as lacking for games like Butler and Wisconsin, but doesn't get credit for a superb coaching job beating Michigan, Michigan State, and THE Ohio State University on the road.

Obviously, no one was happy with how the season ended, but it shouldn't take away from the fact they won what was far and away the toughest league in the nation.

That was a talented team that had big flaws, just like every talented team last year. There's a reason the #1 ranking passed hands roughly every week.

Unfortunately Syracuse's strengths were able to exploit those flaws.

It's all passed now, IU has looked pretty much as advertised this year, but I think depending on the progress of Troy Williams/Jeremy Hollowell and other role players, the team will be in the mix for the B1G title.

*Seriously between Dusty and Crean, embattled coaches ought to pay me to defend them.

The expectations were high. They played very good ball the year before in the tournament with a younger team. Unfortunately, they went up against UK in the Sweet 16.

I understand the conundrum you're speaking of...but even if we forget about the games during the regular season, losing in the sweet 16 was a colossal disappointment IMO. I do like Crean though. He's been great for the program, but he had a chance last year I think to cement his place in the program by making it at least to the final 4 (which I still think IU should have) and fell short. I don't put that on him 100% since he's not shooting baskets, but I don't think he's great when it comes to defensive adjustments on either side of the ball. And really, when you think about the Syracuse game, Crean should've had a better game plan. He's gone up against Boeheim previously and has never won.

Yes, I'm still a little bitter about how last season ended, even if it is over.

Hoosier Red

12-14-2013, 06:28 PM

Y U C K. Bad loss to ND today. Vonleh with a pretty limited effort today.

Revering4Blue

12-15-2013, 12:28 AM

Y U C K. Bad loss to ND today. Vonleh with a pretty limited effort today.

The good news: Finally, a break-out game for Will Sheehey.

Coming off of a sub-par performance in a home loss to North Dakota State, it was the perfect storm for the Irish in many ways. This, IMO, could well be Brey's best, at least from the standpoint of depth, particularly big men. It's kind of telling that Zach Auguste, who didn't play a minute against ND State due to matchups, performed well today.

If they can't get the ball into Vonleh and he can't score/ get fouled, I'm afraid that the Hoosiers are going to struggle against teams with depth in the big man department if forced into a half-court game; with perimeter threats in short supply --Johnson and Blackman will arrive next year to help in that department.

IMO, last year's UNC team is a good comparison for this team, and that's not a bad thing considering all of the new faces. As an aside, the B1G doesn't appear to be as strong at the top as last year and that may bode well for this IU team, which is capable of causing problems of their own with all of their length and athleticism, which was in relative short supply last year, collectively.

Hoosier Red

12-30-2013, 05:35 PM

So now Luke Fischer's transferring. That's a shame as he was the guy who I thought would be an important piece to continually improve through the years.

Not sure what the deal was or if it was just an early version of spring Creaning, but not a good development at ALL.

Season could really go from "meh" to "bleh" pretty quickly. Need a good performance at Illinois tomorrow.

Revering4Blue

12-31-2013, 10:34 PM

With Vonleh in foul trouble for much of the game, we certainly could have used Fischer today. Besides Vonleh's foul trouble, if you would have told me before the game that Hollowell would deliver a zero on the scoreboard and that Sheehey would pull a second half disappearing act, and IU would still have a chance to pull it out at the end of regulation, I'd have thought that you were crazy.

Still a disappointing loss, and a blown opportunity to steal a conference game on the road, though.

WMR

01-01-2014, 04:02 AM

IU needs to dump Crean. I hope they keep him as long as possible, but he has maxed out his potential at IU.

BillDoran

01-01-2014, 12:31 PM

IU needs to dump Crean. I hope they keep him as long as possible, but he has maxed out his potential at IU.

That's just absurd.

Crean took a program in tatters and went 56-16 over the past two years. They underachieved in the tournament last year and the prospects for the current season don't look too bright, but to suggest that Crean isn't doing a good job is silly.

He recruits and develops players well. I think he'll have IU at the top of the Big Ten for years to come.

WMR

01-01-2014, 01:46 PM

That's just absurd.

Crean took a program in tatters and went 56-16 over the past two years. They underachieved in the tournament last year and the prospects for the current season don't look too bright, but to suggest that Crean isn't doing a good job is silly.

He recruits and develops players well. I think he'll have IU at the top of the Big Ten for years to come.

You may be right, I just think IU could do better.

Losing this Fischer kid was bad.

A buddy of mine is an IU fan and Crean's sub patterns are driving him nuts. You should have a rotation by now.

traderumor

01-01-2014, 01:46 PM

But he has an equivalent of Ohio State football in his hands, so he had a boatload of tradition to overcome a program "in tatters." I'm not sure he is a long-term solution for the program, seems a bit mousey and perhaps already peaked. Had the big recruiting class, its cycled through already, onto Phase II. I think Phase I was a piece of cake for that program. Phase II is off to a shaky start.

Revering4Blue

01-01-2014, 05:22 PM

You may be right, I just think IU could do better.

Losing this Fischer kid was bad.

A buddy of mine is an IU fan and Crean's sub patterns are driving him nuts. You should have a rotation by now.

But he has an equivalent of Ohio State football in his hands, so he had a boatload of tradition to overcome a program "in tatters." I'm not sure he is a long-term solution for the program, seems a bit mousey and perhaps already peaked. Had the big recruiting class, its cycled through already, onto Phase II. I think Phase I was a piece of cake for that program. Phase II is off to a shaky start.

Fair takes (to a certain extent) on the situation.

That stated, IMO, perspective on certain issues is, no offense, lacking here by both fans and non-fans of the program.

Players/personnel -- Vonleh has been as good as advertised and has, as of now, only scratched the surface in regards to potential. Troy Williams, OTOH, has, by all accounts, been slow to develop and the constant comparisons to Oladipo, are, in some ways, unfair. But remember, Oladipo didn't become a star overnight.

Yes, Fischer is a loss, as he would have allowed Vonleh to spend more time at the 4 position, and may result in IU being relegated to the NIT. Fischer was averaging only 10 minutes, 3 points and 2 rebounds per game, so it's not as if his loss is a program altering, make-or-break loss. Crean can sign a JC Center for next season that can, at worst, provide those numbers.

As for the IU can do better than Crean spiel, that may or may not be true.

IU's not canning Crean within the next two years, but I'll play along for the sake of argument. I'd like to hear actual names who would realistically take the job and do better. Who would you target? And we can forget about the Brad Stevens fantasy; to believe that he'd leave one of the most storied pro franchises for IU is tantamount to believing in the tooth fairy.

Hoosier Red

01-01-2014, 10:31 PM

A lot of good points in previous post. Not to defend Crean but IMO, whether or not IU could hire a better coach. IMO any decent coach with even a lick of sense would pass on the opportunity when such a sudden improvement is met with a "yeah thanks but we can do better." I dont disagree with those who feel like the program will stagnate over the next couple of years. It very well could. But looking to replace a coach out offer of what might happen will lead to a substandard crop of coaches will look to take over.

Revering4Blue

01-01-2014, 11:10 PM

BillDoran

01-02-2014, 10:33 AM

Spot-on.

Look what happened last year when Shaka Smart and all of the big-names turned down UCfreakingLA.

I think most IU fans are on the same page with regards to Crean (outside the lunatic fringe who demand he be fired post haste). He did help restore the program to prominence, but the foreseeable future doesn't look particularly promising. He stocked the cupboards with enough talent to win the national championship, only to bow out much too early. He's shown a disconcerting inability to recruit and develop bigs (Zeller didn't make any great strides, Vonleh looks good, HMP has come along slowly and as of now there's no size whatsoever coming in next year).

To me, it makes most sense to give him another couple years to see if he can recapture that magic he had from 2011-2013. The hiring and performance of a new coach is a crapshoot. As Hoosier Red and Revering pointed out, there's no certainty in being able to attract a big name or up-and-comer, and were you to be fortunate to grab one, there's no guarantees they won't fall on their face. With Crean you know he can get you into the title picture. It's just going to take a year or two to see if he's got another run in him.

dubc47834

01-02-2014, 12:23 PM

I think any non-homer IU fan knew this year was going to be a so-so year, specially after the losses of 4 1000 pt scorers. At he beginning of last year not many people woulda thought that Oladipo woulda developed enough to go to the NBA. I think this year would be totally different with Oladipo around...duh...LOL. I understand some of the frustration with Creans sub patterns. I do think he goes too far into the bench to give guys minutes. Also, if you are going to start Williams, give him starter minutes, if not don't start him. Also, I don't get the love affair with Hollowell. None of this tho is a reason to fire CTC. As far as doing better, not many programs in the country can say they couldn't do better as far as a coach. Crean is an excellent recruiter and player developer who I think has gotten better as far as X' & O's since he has been at IU.

Fisher longer term is a tough loss. From what I'm hearing from people on campus is that he was homesick. I can respect that and that he said he wouldn't be going to another Big 10 school out of respect for IU. I would guess Marquett(?) would be towrd the top of his list.

traderumor

01-02-2014, 12:32 PM

I think most IU fans are on the same page with regards to Crean (outside the lunatic fringe who demand he be fired post haste). He did help restore the program to prominence, but the foreseeable future doesn't look particularly promising. He stocked the cupboards with enough talent to win the national championship, only to bow out much too early. He's shown a disconcerting inability to recruit and develop bigs (Zeller didn't make any great strides, Vonleh looks good, HMP has come along slowly and as of now there's no size whatsoever coming in next year).

To me, it makes most sense to give him another couple years to see if he can recapture that magic he had from 2011-2013. The hiring and performance of a new coach is a crapshoot. As Hoosier Red and Revering pointed out, there's no certainty in being able to attract a big name or up-and-comer, and were you to be fortunate to grab one, there's no guarantees they won't fall on their face. With Crean you know he can get you into the title picture. It's just going to take a year or two to see if he's got another run in him.Shouldn't the expectation at a tradition rich school like IU bball be to reload rather than accept load up/rebuild? He is starting to look like the bball equivalent of John Cooper.

BillDoran

01-02-2014, 01:35 PM

Shouldn't the expectation at a tradition rich school like IU bball be to reload rather than accept load up/rebuild? He is starting to look like the bball equivalent of John Cooper.

Ideally, yeah, I'd love to be a perennial top five team. But as dubc pointed out above, you don't replace four 1,000 scorers. It was a bit of a perfect storm too. Hulls and Watford were seniors, but Oladipo was junior and Zeller a sophomore. Nobody foresaw Oladipo becoming a top two pick. There was talk that Zeller considered sticking around to graduate in three years.

Subtract all that talent and you better have your underclassmen step up. And here's the disconcerting part, they haven't. Hollowell and HMP are major disappointments thus far. Sheehey, ostensibly your senior leader, has shown he's not to be the focal point of an offense.

To suggest Crean is Cooper means a sustained track record of failing with superior talent. Thus far, Crean has underachieved once. And, to me, that's the nature of the NCAA tournament. You position yourself with a high seed and then let the chips fall where they may. Do it enough times and you'll eventually find success.

I find all the kvetching about Crean a bit confusing. He was great at Marquette, bringing them to a Final Four, and has steadily rebuilt the IU program. I'd argue that all those expecting a yearly run at the national title to be delusional. Name one program that lives up these "tradition rich standards." Even Coach K. and Bill Self have had the occasional low 20-win season or early departure from the tourney.

dubc47834

01-02-2014, 01:55 PM

Ideally, yeah, I'd love to be a perennial top five team. But as dubc pointed out above, you don't replace four 1,000 scorers. It was a bit of a perfect storm too. Hulls and Watford were seniors, but Oladipo was junior and Zeller a sophomore. Nobody foresaw Oladipo becoming a top two pick. There was talk that Zeller considered sticking around to graduate in three years.

Subtract all that talent and you better have your underclassmen step up. And here's the disconcerting part, they haven't. Hollowell and HMP are major disappointments thus far. Sheehey, ostensibly your senior leader, has shown he's not to be the focal point of an offense.

To suggest Crean is Cooper means a sustained track record of failing with superior talent. Thus far, Crean has underachieved once. And, to me, that's the nature of the NCAA tournament. You position yourself with a high seed and then let the chips fall where they may. Do it enough times and you'll eventually find success.

I find all the kvetching about Crean a bit confusing. He was great at Marquette, bringing them to a Final Four, and has steadily rebuilt the IU program. I'd argue that all those expecting a yearly run at the national title to be delusional. Name one program that lives up these "tradition rich standards." Even Coach K. and Bill Self have had the occasional low 20-win season or early departure from the tourney.

I think one could make the arguement that Sheehey should go back to being the 6th man. I don't know who CTC would start, but I just don't think Sheehey brings the same energy as a starter. Maybe come the end of the year that changes, I don't know, I hoipe it does. I think the minutes Stanford Robinson got down the stretch during the Illinois game bodes will for IU. He played very solid D on Rice, limiting him to 1-6 shooting. His shooting would need to get better, but he has been playing well lately. I don't know if you can say Perea is a disappointment, like Dakich said during the game the other day, Perea is not a top 50 recruit, athletically yes, but as a basketball player no. He has shown improvement since last year and has given Indiana some very good minutes this year and has been solid from the free throw line.

traderumor

01-02-2014, 10:17 PM

Ideally, yeah, I'd love to be a perennial top five team. But as dubc pointed out above, you don't replace four 1,000 scorers. It was a bit of a perfect storm too. Hulls and Watford were seniors, but Oladipo was junior and Zeller a sophomore. Nobody foresaw Oladipo becoming a top two pick. There was talk that Zeller considered sticking around to graduate in three years.

Subtract all that talent and you better have your underclassmen step up. And here's the disconcerting part, they haven't. Hollowell and HMP are major disappointments thus far. Sheehey, ostensibly your senior leader, has shown he's not to be the focal point of an offense.

To suggest Crean is Cooper means a sustained track record of failing with superior talent. Thus far, Crean has underachieved once. And, to me, that's the nature of the NCAA tournament. You position yourself with a high seed and then let the chips fall where they may. Do it enough times and you'll eventually find success.

I find all the kvetching about Crean a bit confusing. He was great at Marquette, bringing them to a Final Four, and has steadily rebuilt the IU program. I'd argue that all those expecting a yearly run at the national title to be delusional. Name one program that lives up these "tradition rich standards." Even Coach K. and Bill Self have had the occasional low 20-win season or early departure from the tourney.You're defining "reload" differently than me. Right now, IU is not even considered a top 25. I think that is unacceptable. BTW, Ohio State, Michigan State, doing it every year. IU has fallen to mediocrity. I think standards are too low for a sleeping giant.

BillDoran

01-02-2014, 10:46 PM

You're defining "reload" differently than me. Right now, IU is not even considered a top 25. I think that is unacceptable. BTW, Ohio State, Michigan State, doing it every year. IU has fallen to mediocrity. I think standards are too low for a sleeping giant.

You're right. We are defining "reload" differently. I don't much care about being ranked 15 or below; might as well be 45. I only care about teams capable of winning national, and to a lesser extent conference, championships. Anything outside that is window dressing. If it takes a down year after having arguably the most talented team in the country, so be it.

Agreed on Ohio State and Michigan State as well. That's two of the best six or seven programs around these days. Certainly enviable. (I would argue that Izzo has slipped in a 17, 18 and 19-win seasons; Matta really has Ohio State humming).

WMR

01-03-2014, 01:42 PM

dubc47834

01-03-2014, 04:21 PM

Have Indiana fan expectations been permanently lowered? That's what it feels like...

He couldn't get the overall #1 seed past the S16... past probation should have zero impact on the squad at this point and should not be thusly used as an excuse or explanation for subpar performance.

You know who would scare me to death as the coach of IU? He'll never get hired simply because of his past and the Kelvin Sampson debacle, but Bruce Pearl would be an absolute monster at IU.

No, No, No...I hope this would never happen!!!

Expectations have not been lowered and Indiana was not the overall #1 seed last year, that was Louisville. Getting beat by Syracuse who made the Final 4 is nothing to be ashamed about. Sure its disappointing to lose in the Sweet 16, but overall a good year. To me you have realist fans who know there are ups and downs in most programs, and then homers who expect Final 4's every year and a coach to be fired if it doesn't happen. IU's fanbase has many in that second group, get on any IU message board and you will learn quickly that there are some crazies out there who are very unrealistic!!!

I agree with you that nobody should be using past sanctions as an excuse for anything now. The program is back to at least where it was when Coach Knight was fired, and if Coach Crean continues to have "down" years Im sure he won't last long. I doubt that happens tho, he is a great recruiter and developer of players.

Hoosier Red

01-03-2014, 05:40 PM

Have Indiana fan expectations been permanently lowered? That's what it feels like...

He couldn't get the overall #1 seed past the S16... past probation should have zero impact on the squad at this point and should not be thusly used as an excuse or explanation for subpar performance.

You know who would scare me to death as the coach of IU? He'll never get hired simply because of his past and the Kelvin Sampson debacle, but Bruce Pearl would be an absolute monster at IU.

I do think expectations have been lowered.
You have a fan base that may have fond memories of Bob Knight, but post 1993 an NCAA tournament appearance was all that was expected.
The unlikely run in 2002 notwithstanding, Indiana simply hasn't been a force in the NCAA tournament for 20 years.
I'm a transplanted Hoosier fan, so that's pretty much my entire time as a fan.

I don't think this program is at the level right now that a National Championship is expected. That's not to say it can't be acheived, but I think it's unreasonable to have a "championship or bust" or even a "Final Four or bust" mentality.

With that said, making the tournament is still a minimum requirement for even a reasonably successful season. Failing to make the tournament isn't a fireable offense in and of itself, but it certainly can't and shouldn't be a consistent issue. And I think if the program desires to be considered "elite"(GAWD I HATE THAT WORD) it has to at least make the final four every 4-5 years.

Revering4Blue

01-04-2014, 12:51 AM

He couldn't get the overall #1 seed past the S16

It's happened to Dean Smith and Roy Williams many times with teams more talented than last year's IU squad. Nobody ever suggests that Smith and Williams couldn't/can't coach. And, as the post above mine states, IU wasn't the #1 overall seed last year.

You know who would scare me to death as the coach of IU? He'll never get hired simply because of his past and the Kelvin Sampson debacle, but Bruce Pearl would be an absolute monster at IU.

I have no doubt that, if given another chance, Pearl will do great things wherever he lands. That stated, if Final Fours are your measuring stick, Pearl has yet to accomplish that feat on the FCS level; Crean has.

But as an answer to my previous question of who hypothetically should be targeted as a realistic option as IU's coach if the job were to open, I have to agree that Pearl is a great choice from a pure coaching standpoint. Then again, so was Kelvin Sampson, who just couldn't keep his hand out of the cookie jar.

BillDoran

01-04-2014, 05:50 PM

Completely outclassed by Michigan State today.

There's some talent on the roster. It needs seasoning.

There is an incredible dearth of size (Sheehey guarded Payne the majority of the afternoon). Crean and Kenny Johnson best be searching high and low for a big in the late signing period.

cumberlandreds

01-06-2014, 12:50 PM

No, No, No...I hope this would never happen!!!

Expectations have not been lowered and Indiana was not the overall #1 seed last year, that was Louisville. Getting beat by Syracuse who made the Final 4 is nothing to be ashamed about. Sure its disappointing to lose in the Sweet 16, but overall a good year. To me you have realist fans who know there are ups and downs in most programs, and then homers who expect Final 4's every year and a coach to be fired if it doesn't happen. IU's fanbase has many in that second group, get on any IU message board and you will learn quickly that there are some crazies out there who are very unrealistic!!!

I agree with you that nobody should be using past sanctions as an excuse for anything now. The program is back to at least where it was when Coach Knight was fired, and if Coach Crean continues to have "down" years Im sure he won't last long. I doubt that happens tho, he is a great recruiter and developer of players.

I agree you don't want Pearl. Besides being a real slimebag he really isn't that great of a coach. His teams were terrible defenders and he had a losing record to BCG at Kentucky. That in itself tells you a lot about his coaching.

traderumor

01-06-2014, 01:29 PM

It's happened to Dean Smith and Roy Williams many times with teams more talented than last year's IU squad. Nobody ever suggests that Smith and Williams couldn't/can't coach. And, as the post above mine states, IU wasn't the #1 overall seed last year.

I have no doubt that, if given another chance, Pearl will do great things wherever he lands. That stated, if Final Fours are your measuring stick, Pearl has yet to accomplish that feat on the FCS level; Crean has.

But as an answer to my previous question of who hypothetically should be targeted as a realistic option as IU's coach if the job were to open, I have to agree that Pearl is a great choice from a pure coaching standpoint. Then again, so was Kelvin Sampson, who just couldn't keep his hand out of the cookie jar.What Pearl and Sampson have in common would make me hire neither. If they are good basketball coaches, let them go coach somewhere that recruiting is not as important as the coaching.

Revering4Blue

01-06-2014, 01:50 PM

What Pearl and Sampson have in common would make me hire neither. If they are good basketball coaches, let them go coach somewhere that recruiting is not as important as the coaching.

Oh, I'm not advocating hiring Pearl re-hiring Sampson at all. I'm simply acknowledging WMR's point that, given the resources/talent within close proximity, Pearl -- assuming he can keep his hand out of the cookie jar -- could very well return IU to annual National prominence -- not that I'm ready to kick Crean to the curb, as I believe that he can still accomplish that.

Sampson, who is currently an assistant with the Houston Rockets, was simply thrown into the conversation as a comparison to Pearl from the standpoint of actual coaching vs. compliance risk. After all, Sampson, for all of his faults, had few peers as a bench coach -- he was named National coach of the year at least once -- and nobody can take that away from him.

Playadlc

01-14-2014, 10:16 PM

What an enormous win tonight.

Mutaman

01-14-2014, 10:30 PM

What an enormous win tonight.

Great win! Congrats. Storming the floor was a little gauche though.

Revering4Blue

01-14-2014, 10:40 PM

What an enormous win tonight.

:beerme:

You can say that again.

* The turnovers were kept to a minimum.

* Thanks to Stan Robinson taking the pressure off of Ferrell -- both seemingly can get to the rim at will -- the Hoosiers have finally figured out a way to execute in the half-court.

* Finally, the Crean can't beat Ryan spiel no longer holds water, which is especially sweet because it was all at the expense of what many -- not necessarily yours truly -- consider Ryan's best team.

Hoosier Red

01-14-2014, 10:42 PM

Great win! Congrats. Storming the floor was a little gauche though.

I'm in favor of storming the court after every win. Let the fuddy duddies decide that they're too cool for it.

gilpdawg

01-15-2014, 06:14 AM

I'm in favor of storming the court after every win. Let the fuddy duddies decide that they're too cool for it.

If a bunch of drunk college kids wanna act like morons, I'm cool with that. That's what college is for!

RedFanAlways1966

01-15-2014, 09:28 AM

I'm in favor of storming the court after every win. Let the fuddy duddies decide that they're too cool for it.

Our friend Muta says this each time a good/great Wisconsin team loses and the other fans celebrate. He is a loyal Badgers fan, but he knows the Wisconsin faithful do the same when they upset an opponent on their football field or basketball court. Google images show those Madison folks do the same.

WVRed

01-15-2014, 01:02 PM

Our friend Muta says this each time a good/great Wisconsin team loses and the other fans celebrate. He is a loyal Badgers fan, but he knows the Wisconsin faithful do the same when they upset an opponent on their football field or basketball court. Google images show those Madison folks do the same.

I thought Muta was a Marquette fan.

If UK fans ever storm Rupp after a win I would be embarrassed. Same goes for Duke, UNC, Kansas or any other blue blood of college basketball. I thought Indiana was in that category too, guess I was wrong.

Boston Red

01-15-2014, 01:06 PM

I personally think Indiana fans should at least pretend like they're still Indiana for God's sake and avoid rushing the court after beating freaking Wisconsin of all people. But I'm not an IU fan, and they can obviously do whatever they want.

Razor Shines

01-15-2014, 04:11 PM

I thought Muta was a Marquette fan.

If UK fans ever storm Rupp after a win I would be embarrassed. Same goes for Duke, UNC, Kansas or any other blue blood of college basketball. I thought Indiana was in that category too, guess I was wrong.

You guess you were wrong? Huh, I was gonna guess you were something else.

Who cares if they storm the court? Maybe they weren't even storming the court? Maybe somebody farted in the stands and it was a bad one?

Razor Shines

01-15-2014, 04:15 PM

Great win! Congrats. Storming the floor was a little gauche though.

Well you know those dumb Indiana folk...someone yelled Crean has an ear of corn in his pocket and naturally that started a stampede. Turns out it wasn't an ear of corn at all Crean was just massively excited to have finally beat Ryan.

Mutaman

01-15-2014, 06:01 PM

I thought Muta was a Marquette fan.

If UK fans ever storm Rupp after a win I would be embarrassed. Same goes for Duke, UNC, Kansas or any other blue blood of college basketball. I thought Indiana was in that category too, guess I was wrong.

Despite having two degrees from Madison, have always been a big time Marquette fan. Go Buzz and go Luke Fischer. Religion trumps everything else. :)

Enjoyed last night's win a lot. I dislike Bo a lot more than I dislike Crean. Plus I took the four points with both hands.

Not a big deal, and it is a bunch of college kids and it is the midwest, but coolness is important, and storming the court in January is not cool. Suspect the Tanned One had something to do with it.

WMR

01-15-2014, 06:25 PM

Well you know those dumb Indiana folk...someone yelled Crean has an ear of corn in his pocket and naturally that started a stampede. Turns out it wasn't an ear of corn at all Crean was just massively excited to have finally beat Ryan.

Bob Knight rolling over in his grave... :lol:

Think he would have tolerated a program with 5 titles rushing the court for beating a team like Wiscy?

BillDoran

01-15-2014, 07:24 PM

Bob Knight rolling over in his grave... :lol:

Think he would have tolerated a program with 5 titles rushing the court for beating a team like Wiscy?

It's drunk kids. Running onto a basketball court. Why this is a chronic case for the morality police, I will never know.

Perhaps we could talk about, who knows, the actual basketball game.

Stanford Robinson sure looks like he's developing into something. If he can continue to bring it consistently, that's a nice 1-2 punch in the backcourt with Yogi.

Also, whither Jeremy Hollowell? In all honesty, I find his absence somewhat refreshing. He can be an exceptionally frustrating player to watch.

WMR

01-15-2014, 07:41 PM

He said he has no problem with court-storming.

"It was very spur-of-the-moment," Crean said of Tuesday's celebration. "Those are how memories get created, and those are how experiences get talked about for years and years.

"I love the tradition of college basketball, but I don't think there's any one way to do it, and I don't think there's any person that can really (control it)."

http://www.indystar.com/story/sports/college/indiana/2014/01/15/crean-former-iu-players-react-to-court-storming/4497185/

Crean selling his mediocre results for all they're worth... Net cutting after losses, phone books, shrines... How long will IU fans keep buying this crap?

Btw: he should call the general if he needs advice on how to stop it. Bobby would've grabbed the PA mic and stopped it with a quickness.

WVRed

01-15-2014, 08:01 PM

http://www.indystar.com/story/sports/college/indiana/2014/01/15/crean-former-iu-players-react-to-court-storming/4497185/

Crean selling his mediocre results for all they're worth... Net cutting after losses, phone books, shrines... How long will IU fans keep buying this crap?

Btw: he should call the general if he needs advice on how to stop it. Bobby would've grabbed the PA mic and stopped it with a quickness.

Couldn't have put it better myself. I'm kinda surprised the Worldwide Leader hasn't asked for Mr. Knights opinion, given it was a topic on ESPN last night.

It should speak volumes when Arkansas doesn't storm the court after upsetting Kentucky yet Indiana does after beating Wisconsin.

Mutaman

01-15-2014, 08:07 PM

It's drunk kids. Running onto a basketball court. Why this is a chronic case for the morality police, I will never know.

Fans have a right to storm the court and other fans have a right to comment on how tacky it is. No biggie either way.

dabvu2498

01-15-2014, 08:38 PM

Couldn't have put it better myself. I'm kinda surprised the Worldwide Leader hasn't asked for Mr. Knights opinion, given it was a topic on ESPN last night.

It should speak volumes when Arkansas doesn't storm the court after upsetting Kentucky yet Indiana does after beating Wisconsin.

Kentucky wasn't undefeated and ranked #3 in the country.

As to the bigger picture, I find it tough to criticize college kids for having a little harmless fun, regardless of where they go to school or how good/bad/"blue blooded" their basketball program is.

Big. Stinkin. Deal.

Mutaman

01-15-2014, 09:31 PM

As to the bigger picture, I find it tough to criticize college kids for having a little harmless fun

Its very tough, but somebody's gotta to do it.

Revering4Blue

01-15-2014, 10:23 PM

Couldn't have put it better myself. I'm kinda surprised the Worldwide Leader hasn't asked for Mr. Knights opinion, given it was a topic on ESPN last night.

It should speak volumes when Arkansas doesn't storm the court after upsetting Kentucky yet Indiana does after beating Wisconsin.

Well, they've beaten UK three times in a row in Fayetteville, so perhaps the Arkansas fans are used to it by now.;)

Revering4Blue

01-15-2014, 10:31 PM

Bob Knight rolling over in his grave... :lol:

Think he would have tolerated a program with 5 titles rushing the court for beating a team like Wiscy?

Bob Knight worship, again?

Yawn.

I'll take tired topics for 100, Alex!

Respectfully, the majority of IU backers have done what, apparently, the anti-IU folks have been, so far, unwilling to do:

We've moved on.

Revering4Blue

01-15-2014, 10:33 PM

Kentucky wasn't undefeated and ranked #3 in the country.

As to the bigger picture, I find it tough to criticize college kids for having a little harmless fun, regardless of where they go to school or how good/bad/"blue blooded" their basketball program is.

Big. Stinkin. Deal.

Agreed.

So long as they don't act like Jackwagons -- like several did following UK's last visit to Assembly Hall -- what's the problem?

traderumor

01-15-2014, 10:34 PM

When its your team, its harmless fun. When its somebody else's team, its "was that a storm the floor worthy win? Geesh, never won a big game before?" It just works that way.

On another note, I think Tom Crean has some emotional imbalance that will get him in trouble eventually.

Hillsdale87

01-15-2014, 11:06 PM

On another note, I think Tom Crean has some emotional imbalance that will get him in trouble eventually.

He's got nothing on his brother-in-law

jimbo

01-15-2014, 11:21 PM

It should speak volumes when Arkansas doesn't storm the court after upsetting Kentucky yet Indiana does after beating Wisconsin.

I'm a little surprised they didn't considering they had just won the super bowl. :D

WVRed

01-16-2014, 01:20 AM

Agreed.

So long as they don't act like Jackwagons -- like several did following UK's last visit to Assembly Hall -- what's the problem?

All blue blooded comments aside, I normally wouldn't agree with Coach K, but he made some comments some time ago about why storming the court shouldn't be allowed.

Two reasons in particular I agree with :

1. Injuries to players. Two years ago, Darius Miller nearly got trampled at Indiana. That was more of a freak situation given it was a game winning shot and the chaos that followed.

2. Incidents with fans. UK has had three incidents with this just in the Calipari era, including one last night with Aaron Harrison and a fan. How long before a player gets attacked or a player turns on a fan and it turns into an all out brawl?

I don't have a problem with fans storming the court, but I can understand the concerns. I do think though Indiana should be the fanbase who WANTS fans to storm the court when they get beaten, not the other way around.

gilpdawg

01-16-2014, 02:35 AM

To be fair to the students at Indiana, the Knight era ended when a senior would have still been in grade school. That's a lifetime ago for them. Indiana's history means nothing to them. It's like when I was 9 watching the 87 team and people were like, you should have seen the 76 team, and I'm like, dude, I wasn't alive then!

WMR

01-16-2014, 02:56 AM

Kentucky wasn't undefeated and ranked #3 in the country.

As to the bigger picture, I find it tough to criticize college kids for having a little harmless fun, regardless of where they go to school or how good/bad/"blue blooded" their basketball program is.

Big. Stinkin. Deal.

Rumor has it Vandy was gonna rush the court once... unfortunately none of the Vandy nerds had the requisite upper body strength to lift themselves up onto the elevated floor. ;):lol:

WMR

01-16-2014, 04:50 AM

All blue blooded comments aside, I normally wouldn't agree with Coach K, but he made some comments some time ago about why storming the court shouldn't be allowed.

Two reasons in particular I agree with :

1. Injuries to players. Two years ago, Darius Miller nearly got trampled at Indiana. That was more of a freak situation given it was a game winning shot and the chaos that followed.

2. Incidents with fans. UK has had three incidents with this just in the Calipari era, including one last night with Aaron Harrison and a fan. How long before a player gets attacked or a player turns on a fan and it turns into an all out brawl?

I don't have a problem with fans storming the court, but I can understand the concerns. I do think though Indiana should be the fanbase who WANTS fans to storm the court when they get beaten, not the other way around.

In all seriousness, as the bar for what "deserves" a court storming drops lower and lower and they become more and more common, there will eventually be an all out brawl, serious injury or death and then they will stop.

The NCAA should institute a $100,000 fine and forfeiture of the game and this foolishness would be cut out overnight. Counting on the NCAA to be proactive about anything--besides preemptively excusing systemic academic fraud at UNC--, however, is an exercise in futility.