Indiana Basketball

[indyscott]

Couldn't have put it better myself. I'm kinda surprised the Worldwide Leader hasn't asked for Mr. Knights opinion, given it was a topic on ESPN last night.

It should speak volumes when Arkansas doesn't storm the court after upsetting Kentucky yet Indiana does after beating Wisconsin.

Kentucky wasnt undefeated and no one there buys into Cheataparis notion that UK is the greatest program in the world. But I cant remember, did Robert Morris students rush the court?

But its always nice to have fans of UK to come here and say what is proper protocol for behavior and reputation saving. We appreciate it

[WMR]

If you're really worried about safety, why only complain when Indiana does it?

Because there's a thread about them and they seem to be always doing it?

To be clear, I have two points, irrespective of one another:

1) IU is too good of a program to be rushing the court, ever

2) Rushing the court should be outlawed in college sports

[WMR]

Kentucky wasnt undefeated and no one there buys into Cheataparis notion that UK is the greatest program in the world. But I cant remember, did Robert Morris students rush the court?

But its always nice to have fans of UK to come here and say what is proper protocol for behavior and reputation saving. We appreciate it

Arky actually was about to rush the court and some people had started to until folks realized the game wasn't quite over yet. :D

Trust me, everyone else in the SEC is fully aware that UK is the GOAT, that's why seemingly every away game is either a t shirt game, an honor a former past great day, etc. etc. etc. :laugh: Check average SEC attendance for the games directly before and after UK comes to town. It's comical.

[indyscott]

Arky actually was about to rush the court and some people had started to until folks realized the game wasn't quite over yet. :D

Trust me, everyone else in the SEC is fully aware that UK is the GOAT, that's why seemingly every away game is either a t shirt game, an honor a former past great day, etc. etc. etc. :laugh: Check average SEC attendance for the games directly before and after UK comes to town. It's comical.

You think maybe that has to do with the SEC stinking in basketball and the only good team that comes is UK? And just because no one goes to games in the SEC doesnt make it a good point on your away attendance.

[WMR]

You think maybe that has to do with the SEC stinking in basketball and the only good team that comes is UK? And just because no one goes to games in the SEC doesnt make it a good point on your away attendance.

They come in record numbers even when UK is average or bad (BCG years, last season).

You're really trying to contend that teams don't want to beat UK more than anyone else? :lol:

We've had IU fans on this very board say that they cared more about beating UK than Purdue. Hell, Purdue didn't get a phone book or shrine for a reg season game, last time I checked.

[indyscott]

They come in record numbers even when UK is average or bad (BCG years, last season).

You're really trying to contend that teams don't want to beat UK more than anyone else? :lol:

We've had IU fans on this very board say that they cared more about beating UK than Purdue. Hell, Purdue didn't get a phone book or shrine for a reg season game, last time I checked.

What does that have to do with anything at all? You change the topic from SEC road games to IU playing Purdue or UK. I am not sure where you are getting the "they come in record numbers" to see UK on the road. Do you have a link to that? Or is this speculation? I would guess NC would rather beat Duke and vice versa. I would guess Syracuse would rather beat Georgetown. I love how you have come to the conclusion that EVERY NCAA team would rather beat UK than ANY other team. LOL @ your self righteousness

[cumberlandreds]

^ WMR is correct about UK road games. The only time most SEC teams sell out is when UK comes to town. It's the others team Super Bowl. When the SEC went to the unbalanced schedule a few years ago the other SEC teams complained about it because UK wasn't going to be coming into town every year. That meant they lost a big payday. I'm not going to take the time to look up the numbers but its true. I've followed UK basketball for over 40 years and this has never changed.
I'll agree with others that rushing the court should be banned. Someone is going to get seriously hurt or killed doing this someday. It will probably take some tragedy before the NCAA will act though.

[Boston Red]

It works out great for UK. This way they never lose, because they either win the game, or they only lost because "it was the other team's Super Bowl". Laughably, they've even used that line in football a time or two.

[indyscott]

^ WMR is correct about UK road games. The only time most SEC teams sell out is when UK comes to town. It's the others team Super Bowl. When the SEC went to the unbalanced schedule a few years ago the other SEC teams complained about it because UK wasn't going to be coming into town every year. That meant they lost a big payday. I'm not going to take the time to look up the numbers but its true. I've followed UK basketball for over 40 years and this has never changed.
I'll agree with others that rushing the court should be banned. Someone is going to get seriously hurt or killed doing this someday. It will probably take some tragedy before the NCAA will act though.

So what you are saying is UK may set records for road attendance against other SEC schools or against every school in the nation?

I do find the humor that someone is bragging about the "only time a team sells out in the SEC is when UK comes to town"

Fl St @ Florida. 12,000 capacity. 12,306 attended http://espn.go.com/ncb/boxscore?gameId=400502701

Kansas @ Fla. 12,423 attended
http://espn.go.com/ncb/boxscore?gameId=400498299

[Razor Shines]

Because there's a thread about them and they seem to be always doing it?

To be clear, I have two points, irrespective of one another:

1) IU is too good of a program to be rushing the court, ever

2) Rushing the court should be outlawed in college sports

I agree totally with your second point. I've been saying that for years. Just doesn't seem like a good idea to have thousands of un coordinated kids stampeding toward the court like they're going for a $200 TV at Wal-Mart. It wouldn't take much of a bump to end a player's season or career.

[cumberlandreds]

So what you are saying is UK may set records for road attendance against other SEC schools or against every school in the nation?

I do find the humor that someone is bragging about the "only time a team sells out in the SEC is when UK comes to town"

Fl St @ Florida. 12,000 capacity. 12,306 attended http://espn.go.com/ncb/boxscore?gameId=400502701

Kansas @ Fla. 12,423 attended
http://espn.go.com/ncb/boxscore?gameId=400498299

I find it humourous that a school celebrates wins with popcorn boxes. :laugh:

Good for Florida. It's about time they can sell out for someone else. Billy Donovan made them a consistant winner and its abut time they can draw good crowds. I was just pointing out the fact that UK is enough of a dominant team that they can sell out an arena where most of the time it does not. I'm sure that happens when Duke goes to most places in the ACC and the same in the Big 12 when Kanas goes on the road. I don't doubt that it happened in the Big 10 in the past when IU went on the road.

[indyscott]

I find it humourous that a school celebrates wins with popcorn boxes. :laugh:

I find it humorous you dont want to take the time to show UK has set some kind of NCAA road records yet want to take time to post a useless post.

[cumberlandreds]

I find it humorous you dont want to take the time to show UK has set some kind of NCAA road records yet want to take time to post a useless post.

I quit you win. You are the sole authoirty of college basketball. Go back and enjoy the rest of the season. I'm sorry I came here.

[indyscott]

I quit you win. You are the sole authoirty of college basketball. Go back and enjoy the rest of the season. I'm sorry I came here.

Never once have I claimed that. Dont be upset when i question your opinion as fact. You agreed that UK has some sort of road record attendance that being a fan of theirs for 40 years you know it as a truth.

I just get a kick out of UK fans coming here pointing some kind of moral compass as to what IU should or shouldnt be doing.

[indyscott]

http://i44.tinypic.com/apk49d.png

[WVRed]

http://i44.tinypic.com/apk49d.png

One of us has to have standards. :-)

[WVRed]

I agree totally with your second point. I've been saying that for years. Just doesn't seem like a good idea to have thousands of un coordinated kids stampeding toward the court like they're going for a $200 TV at Wal-Mart. It wouldn't take much of a bump to end a player's season or career.

Or a Malice in the Palace type of situation. I think that will happen before a player gets injured for the season.

I just would make sure it would be possible to get the opposing team off the court before utter bedlam set in. That's just me though.

[fearofpopvol1]

I'm torn on this one. As my Alma Mater, I'm not sure I like seeing this. I typically think of seeing court rushes when a known lesser program beats a top program (no offense to those smaller programs). However, I will say that I think when IU rushed the court after beating UK a couple years back, I was okay with that. After all, UK might have gone undefeated that year had it not been for IU.

On the other hand, 12 straight wins against your program is nothing to sneeze out. And in what appears to be somewhat of a lost season for IU, a win like this might end up being their biggest win of the year (sad but true).

So I think I'm okay with it, but I don't want to see this again for a win in January against a conference rival.

[5TimeWSChamps]

Duke's rushed the court before...for beating VIRGINIA TECH...

http://rushthecourt.net/mag/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/duke-rtc-va-tech.jpg

[indyscott]

Duke's rushed the court before...for beating VIRGINIA TECH...

http://rushthecourt.net/mag/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/duke-rtc-va-tech.jpg

I will wait until the UK morality police release a statement.

[Revering4Blue]

Here's a blast from the past: A really good interview with A.J Guyton.

Well worth the read.

http://btn.com/2014/01/16/throwback-thursday-qa-indianas-a-j-guyton/

[WMR]

I will wait until the UK morality police release a statement.

They weren't actually rushing the court because of basketball, a UK fan snuck in and grabbed the PA mic and said there was a TI-83 Scientific Calculator giveaway at midcourt immediately following the game.

[dubc47834]

I thought Muta was a Marquette fan.

If UK fans ever storm Rupp after a win I would be embarrassed. Same goes for Duke, UNC, Kansas or any other blue blood of college basketball. I thought Indiana was in that category too, guess I was wrong.

IU fan here...was NOT a fan of the storming. Wisky was #3 for crying out loud!!! DISAPPOINTED

[dubc47834]

Arky actually was about to rush the court and some people had started to until folks realized the game wasn't quite over yet. :D

Trust me, everyone else in the SEC is fully aware that UK is the GOAT, that's why seemingly every away game is either a t shirt game, an honor a former past great day, etc. etc. etc. :laugh: Check average SEC attendance for the games directly before and after UK comes to town. It's comical.

I think UCLA might argue that!!!

[Revering4Blue]

I think UCLA might argue that!!!

We're living in a what have you've done for me lately world.

[Revering4Blue]

Court-rushing or not, I'll be in attendance Saturday.

[WMR]

What is the IU fan opinion of Dan Dakich? Annoying blowhard? Awesome ambassador? Still angry he didn't get the IU job?

Obviously, I can't stand the guy, and he clearly has a major stick up his butt still about UK...

Just curious what IU fans think about him...

[Revering4Blue]

What is the IU fan opinion of Dan Dakich? Annoying blowhard? Awesome ambassador? Still angry he didn't get the IU job?

Obviously, I can't stand the guy, and he clearly has a major stick up his butt still about UK...

Just curious what IU fans think about him...

Awesome ambassador for the most part.

Annoying at times? Yes.

While I appreciate everything he's done for IU, I was never upset at all that he didn't land the IU job. Hiring him as permanent HC, while placating the small, but very vocal, crowd that will dismiss any coach not named Robert Montgomery Knight, wasn't a good idea, IMO.

[Boston Red]

We're living in a what have you've done for me lately world.

So I guess it's Louisville then. Or perhaps Arizona.

[dubc47834]

What is the IU fan opinion of Dan Dakich? Annoying blowhard? Awesome ambassador? Still angry he didn't get the IU job?

Obviously, I can't stand the guy, and he clearly has a major stick up his butt still about UK...

Just curious what IU fans think about him...

I generally like Dakich. He is very smart when it comes to basketball. I have never sensed he was angry about the IU job, pretty sure I heard before that he didn't even want the job full-time. Sometime he can be annoying, but what I like is he isn't an IU homer. He is pretty much straight up with his calls of the game. He really loves the game of basketball and anyone who loves the game like that I can't really hate on!:thumbup:

[dubc47834]

We're living in a what have you've done for me lately world.

Well then it would be GOWHYDFML not GOAT...:beerme:

[traderumor]

I generally like Dakich. He is very smart when it comes to basketball. I have never sensed he was angry about the IU job, pretty sure I heard before that he didn't even want the job full-time. Sometime he can be annoying, but what I like is he isn't an IU homer. He is pretty much straight up with his calls of the game. He really loves the game of basketball and anyone who loves the game like that I can't really hate on!:thumbup:Dakich gets arrogant and questions very successful coaches too often, which makes him come off as a know-it-all. It seems he has an issue with his style and ways, then projects that is the only way to be successful.

[dubc47834]

Dakich gets arrogant and questions very successful coaches too often, which makes him come off as a know-it-all. It seems he has an issue with his style and ways, then projects that is the only way to be successful.

I've never seen that view point...but then again, I love IU basketball and what Dakich done after Sampson was fired!!!

[Hoosier Red]

What is the IU fan opinion of Dan Dakich? Annoying blowhard? Awesome ambassador? Still angry he didn't get the IU job?

Obviously, I can't stand the guy, and he clearly has a major stick up his butt still about UK...

Just curious what IU fans think about him...

I think as a basketball analyst, he's really good.

I think as a talk show host, he's an annoying blowhard.

As an IU ambassador, he's okay but not the first guy I'd point out as a proud alum.

[traderumor]

I've never seen that view point...but then again, I love IU basketball and what Dakich done after Sampson was fired!!!

I watched an Ohio State game recently and he dogged Matta more than once. It was very low class and arrogant. Sorry, I do not have the specific examples of what was said.

[Hoosier Red]

I watched an Ohio State game recently and he dogged Matta more than once. It was very low class and arrogant. Sorry, I do not have the specific examples of what was said.

What do you mean by dogged him?

Was it a specific criticism or calling him names.

[WMR]

Any truth to the rumor IU rushed the court today for almost coming back to beat northwestern? ;)

[indyscott]

They did rush the floor afterwards. But it was because they were giving away UKs 40-0 t-shirts.

[WMR]

They did rush the floor afterwards. But it was because they were giving away UKs 40-0 t-shirts.

Sorry, those have already been sent to clothe an entire village in the Sudan. They were sent over in the same package with "The Movement" IU shirts. Thought it was a movement but turned out to just be really bad gas.

[indyscott]

Sorry, those have already been sent to clothe an entire village in the Sudan. They were sent over in the same package with "The Movement" IU shirts. Thought it was a movement but turned out to just be really bad gas.

Just glad you arent here to troll. I guess I should go to the UK dynasty thread.

[Boston Red]

Just glad you arent here to troll. I guess I should go to the UK dynasty thread.

There'd be no problem with that. This is Redszone after all and not peegs or Kentucky Sports Report. If you or WMR want to post in a thread, fire away.

[indyscott]

There'd be no problem with that. This is Redszone after all and not peegs or Kentucky Sports Report. If you or WMR want to post in a thread, fire away.

i will pass.

[WMR]

Just glad you arent here to troll. I guess I should go to the UK dynasty thread.

That was playful teasing, not trolling.

You see the Hoosiers fans like the post?

Most of us have been posting with each other for many years now...

If I give any team a hard time it's UL, but I have tons of respect for Boston Red and Josh as posters and men. Same for the vast majority of IU posters in this thread.

[Razor Shines]

That was playful teasing, not trolling.

You see the Hoosiers fans like the post?

Most of us have been posting with each other for many years now...

If I give any team a hard time it's UL, but I have tons of respect for Boston Red and Josh as posters and men. Same for the vast majority of IU posters in this thread.

That's the like button I've been hitting all this time? I thought I was reporting all your posts to the mods and the thumb meant "Like, get this dude out of here."

[dubc47834]

Hopefully this game don't get uuuuugly!!!

[gilpdawg]

Freaking Harris.

[dubc47834]

Freaking Harris.

He is a beast. Overall fairly happy with the effort and the way we played tonite. Turnovers and 11 missed layups in the 2nd half!

[Razor Shines]

Not sure what I think anymore. There's too much talent on this Hoosier team to lose to a crap team like Nebraska.

That second half is one of the worst halves of basketball I've forced myself to sit through.

[gilpdawg]

Nebraska isn't bad at home though.

[Razor Shines]

Nebraska isn't bad at home though.

Think about what you just typed. Plus, they looked bad last night. IU played like pure poop last night.

[gilpdawg]

Think about what you just typed. Plus, they looked bad last night. IU played like pure poop last night.

I mean it. We aren't better than they are, we aren't above them. Not this year. Looking down on them just because "they are Nebraska" is the mentality of another school down south who thinks college basketball would cease to exist without them. We are better than that.

[rdiersin]

Think about what you just typed. Plus, they looked bad last night. IU played like pure poop last night.

As a Purdue fan, let me just say it could be worse, i.e. No offense+No defense+underachieving talent=Purdue right now. Throw in nobody really "working hard" and I am left with one of the weirdest experiences I have ever had. At least IU fans can tune in consistently and watch a pretty good player in Yogi. The Big Ten is just completely bizarre this year.

[Revering4Blue]

We can talk about inexperience, turnovers, substitution patterns all we want, but, IMO, this post from another board is spot-on.


The reason IU is not so good this year relates directly to what has happened before and during the season - most of it unexpected. I call it Crean's "7 Sorrows:"
1) Cody left early (expected)
2) Vic left early (unexpected at the time of his recruitment)
3) Remy Abell left (unexpected; would have played a ton this year)
4) Maurice Creek left (unknown if this was expected; would have eventually become a starter)
5) Luke Fischer left (unexpected)
6) Will Sheehey failure to emerge as a scorer (unexpected)
7) JH failure to emerge as starter/scorer (unexpected)

Yes, every team has difficulties, injuries, transfers, etc. However, the large number that hit IU has been too much to overcome. Anytime 5 players leave, you are in trouble as there is a lot of collective knowledge about running the system. Three of the players were decent outside shooters (now clear that we needed at least one to stay). With both Cody and Luke gone, there is no real center. And, odds were that at least WS or JH would emerge (bad luck I guess).

http://www.insidethehall.com/2014/01/30/the-minute-after-nebraska-3/#more-36371

[Hoosier Red]

We can talk about inexperience, turnovers, substitution patterns all we want, but, IMO, this post from another board is spot-on.



http://www.insidethehall.com/2014/01/30/the-minute-after-nebraska-3/#more-36371

Agree with those 7. Add to them Hanner Mosquera-Perea's inability to develop any game at all.

[redsfanmia]

Creek was "Creened" he didn't leave unexpectedly. Creen did not recruit any shooters, this is an NIT team at best

[Hoosier Red]

As a Purdue fan, let me just say it could be worse, i.e. No offense+No defense+underachieving talent=Purdue right now. Throw in nobody really "working hard" and I am left with one of the weirdest experiences I have ever had. At least IU fans can tune in consistently and watch a pretty good player in Yogi. The Big Ten is just completely bizarre this year.

Since I'm so rarely accurate in my predictions, I like to point out the relatively few instances when I turn out correct.

When Painter was courted by Mizzou, and eventually turned it down, I thought he and Purdue were both going to regret it.

[Revering4Blue]

Creek was "Creened" he didn't leave unexpectedly. Creen did not recruit any shooters, this is an NIT team at best

I'm happy that Creek is doing well at GW, but it certainly sounds like, much like Matt Roth, he was "Creaned"; both were/are losses to their respective teams, as you can never have too many shooters. To that end, Etherington and Hartman were/are reputed to be shooters, but rarely look for their shot.

Shooters arrive next year, but the Million dollar question -- admittedly, way too early to speculate -- is whether or not Vonleh returns.

[WVRed]

Creek was "Creened" he didn't leave unexpectedly. Creen did not recruit any shooters, this is an NIT team at best

Spring Creaning.

[redsfanmia]

I'm happy that Creek is doing well at GW, but it certainly sounds like, much like Matt Roth, he was "Creaned"; both were/are losses to their respective teams, as you can never have too many shooters. To that end, Etherington and Hartman were/are reputed to be shooters, but rarely look for their shot.

Shooters arrive next year, but the Million dollar question -- admittedly, way too early to speculate -- is whether or not Vonleh returns.

Does it matter is Vonleh comes back? With or without him they are still not Big "10" or National title contenders.

[Hoosier Red]

I disagree strongly that they're not B1G contenders with Vonleh next year. I wouldn't say they're likely to be favored, but that will be a good deep team next year if Noah comes back.

[Razor Shines]

I disagree strongly that they're not B1G contenders with Vonleh next year. I wouldn't say they're likely to be favored, but that will be a good deep team next year if Noah comes back.

Yeah, Blackmon can really really shoot. I think they could certainly be a B1G contender next year.

[Revering4Blue]

Yeah, Blackmon can really really shoot. I think they could certainly be a B1G contender next year.

So can Robert Johnson.

Crean certainly shouldn't be immune to criticism -- I, too question substitution patterns etc. from time-to-time -- but it seems like quite a reach to believe that a team with Vonleh and shooters cannot, at the very least, contend for top honors in the B1G.

[Revering4Blue]

Quote from ESPN, "Indiana's win today was its 10th against a Top-10 opponent since the start of the 2011-12 season. Only Kansas has more in that span."

[gilpdawg]

Yeah, Blackmon can really really shoot. I think they could certainly be a B1G contender next year.

I just saw Blackmon play Friday night. His team had 2 starters injured so he was double and tripled all night and he still got 20.

[Assembly Hall]

Is anyone else out there puzzled by Troy Williams?

[dubc47834]

Think about what you just typed. Plus, they looked bad last night. IU played like pure poop last night.

Nebraska was 9-1 at home going into that game...so yeah, they arent bad at home!

[Hoosier Red]

Is anyone else out there puzzled by Troy Williams?

Yes. He really should be able to do more both offensively and defensively. He just looks lost way too often.

On the plus side, Stanford Robinson has essentially taken over the role I thought he would be playing.

[dubc47834]

Is anyone else out there puzzled by Troy Williams?

Yes, in that he starts but doesnt really get starter minutes. Yesterday was the first day I thought he played about what he should. Williams hasn't played bad this year, he just has some really stupid turnovers sometimes. He is a Freshman tho and it should be expected. It will be interesting to see how hard he works this summer, lets see if the Oladipo comparisons are worthy next fall. I thought it was great when Crean had Marlin in and the crowd went crazy with the boo's. Indiana fans arent stupid. You put some scrubs in during the first half of a close important game, you deserve to get booed. I have supported Crean, but this is getting rediculous, and I think the fans are going to start letting him know about it.

[Assembly Hall]

Yes. He really should be able to do more both offensively and defensively. He just looks lost way too often.

On the plus side, Stanford Robinson has essentially taken over the role I thought he would be playing.

Williams just aint bringing anything to the table. The only positive I see is his rebounding skills. He is a liability for the most part on the offensive end.

Stan is looking good.

[Assembly Hall]

Yes, in that he starts but doesnt really get starter minutes. Yesterday was the first day I thought he played about what he should. Williams hasn't played bad this year, he just has some really stupid turnovers sometimes. He is a Freshman tho and it should be expected. It will be interesting to see how hard he works this summer, lets see if the Oladipo comparisons are worthy next fall. I thought it was great when Crean had Marlin in and the crowd went crazy with the boo's. Indiana fans arent stupid. You put some scrubs in during the first half of a close important game, you deserve to get booed. I have supported Crean, but this is getting rediculous, and I think the fans are going to start letting him know about it.

I still scratch my head about the substitution patterns I have witnessed this year.

[Revering4Blue]

Is anyone else out there puzzled by Troy Williams?

TW has a long way to go to reach his potential, but I'm fairly certain that eventually he'll get there. After all, he's only a freshman. As of right now, however, he seems lost in the halfcourt -- all together now: the entire team does at times. Place him in open court situations -- such as utilizing his length at the teeth of pressing/trapping -- and you're in business.

[Assembly Hall]

TW has a long way to go to reach his potential, but I'm fairly certain that eventually he'll get there. After all, he's only a freshman. As of right now, however, he seems lost in the halfcourt -- all together now: the entire team does at times. Place him in open court situations -- such as utilizing his length at the teeth of pressing/trapping -- and you're in business.

Interesting comments there Rev.:thumbup:

[Revering4Blue]

I still scratch my head about the substitution patterns I have witnessed this year.

Even the staunchest (is that even a word?) Crean supporters are also scratching their collective heads.

For every brilliant move, such as putting Yogi on Strauskus yesterday, I sometimes wonder if Crean just throws bodies out there, regardless of matchups.

I may be in the minority, but I'm inclined to believe that certain players -- HMP, in particular -- seem to play with a lot of apprehension and are unable to establish any kind of rhythm, fearing that they will immediately get pulled following a miscue. To that end, I'd like to see Vonleh and HMP on the floor together at times in high (Vonleh) low (HMP) sets to alleviate the pressure on Vonleh, as he wouldn't have three players and half of the opposing school's student section hanging on him everytime he touches the ball...and we all know that Vonleh is also one of our most consistent outside shooters.

Sounds like a win-win situation to me.

[Revering4Blue]

Interesting comments there Rev.:thumbup:

I have my moments. :beerme:

[Assembly Hall]

Yeah, just don't understand why CTC doesn't play Hanner along side Noah. But heck this is the same CTC that wasn't playing Stan or Austin earlier in the year.........

[indyscott]

I think when you struggle as much offensively like IU does sometimes you throw a lot of lineups out just to see if something clicks. But the bottom line is, if they dont shoot the ball well they are going to have a hard time winning. And they dont have a lot of shooters out there. Their defense has been outstanding this year, but the deficiencies on the offensive end have made it too hard to overcome in some games

[Assembly Hall]

I think when you struggle as much offensively like IU does sometimes you throw a lot of lineups out just to see if something clicks. But the bottom line is, if they dont shoot the ball well they are going to have a hard time winning. And they dont have a lot of shooters out there. Their defense has been outstanding this year, but the deficiencies on the offensive end have made it too hard to overcome in some games

I can appreciate those comments. But I would say that we are more than half way into the year. CTC seems to have not figured anything out yet as far as a rotation.

[indyscott]

I can appreciate those comments. But I would say that we are more than half way into the year. CTC seems to have not figured anything out yet as far as a rotation.

Have you found one that is working offensively?

[Hoosier Red]

Have you found one that is working offensively?

I think it's a bit of a circular answer.
Guys don't feel comfortable due to uncertain rotation leads to guys not working offensively, leads to line shift style changes leads to guys not feeling comfortable.

[Assembly Hall]

Bingo!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Hoosier Red]

Not to psychoanalyze, but in general all of Tom Crean's negatives as a coach come from trying to do too much.

He's notorious for never being done recruiting which leads to the occasional awkward moment of shedding a player he had previously recruited.
Practices are reportedly more physical, leading to (allegedly) more injuries than your average college basketball team.

During games he switches lineups every other two minutes.


Essentially, because he's basically had to grind to accomplish whatever he's had to accomplish, he never lets things play out without trying to "fix" something.

[Razor Shines]

I'd say that's a pretty fair assessment. I think IU needed that from Crean when he started but at some point he's gonna have to ease off the gas a little.

[Assembly Hall]

I'd say that's a pretty fair assessment. I think IU needed that from Crean when he started but at some point he's gonna have to ease off the gas a little.

Very well said.

[gilpdawg]

I don't recall him schizophrenic subbing so much the last couple of years before this one. I think some of the problem is he doesn't know what he's going to get from certain guys day to day and gets impatient. I don't care who he's mad at and benching for a spell to send a message, Johnny Marlin shouldn't ever see the floor in a close game.

[Assembly Hall]

Does everybody remember last year when CTC was whining about Perrea and Jurkin being ineligible and how it affected the teams depth? So there they are on the bench and we get Johnny Marlin!

[Hoosier Red]

Does everybody remember last year when CTC was whining about Perrea and Jurkin being ineligible and how it affected the teams depth? So there they are on the bench and we get Johnny Marlin!

This is one of those things people complain about that I understand to a point, but really don't get why people are so upset about it.

I mean have Perea and Jurkin really shown anything to demonstrate they deserve more playing time?

It's obviously disappointing that Perea and Jurkin haven't developed more, but do you really want them out there right now that much more than Jeff Howard?

Crean's always been such a stalwart about earning playing time in practice. It doesn't make much sense to assert that if you can't back it up as a coach. It especially doesn't make sense to assert it if you aren't going to back it up even when the scholarship players are not likely to play better than the walk-ons who are likely practicing better.

[Assembly Hall]

This is one of those things people complain about that I understand to a point, but really don't get why people are so upset about it.

I mean have Perea and Jurkin really shown anything to demonstrate they deserve more playing time?

It's obviously disappointing that Perea and Jurkin haven't developed more, but do you really want them out there right now that much more than Jeff Howard?

Crean's always been such a stalwart about earning playing time in practice. It doesn't make much sense to assert that if you can't back it up as a coach. It especially doesn't make sense to assert it if you aren't going to back it up even when the scholarship players are not likely to play better than the walk-ons who are likely practicing better.

I don't think it upsets me, but I was led to believe that Perrea and Jurkin could have been contributors on last years team. But of course they weren't. Perrea plays sparingly this year and I couldn't tell you the last time Jurkin saw action. But Marlin out on the floor does crack me up.

[Hoosier Red]

I don't think it upsets me, but I was led to believe that Perrea and Jurkin could have been contributors on last years team. But of course they weren't. Perrea plays sparingly this year and I couldn't tell you the last time Jurkin saw action. But Marlin out on the floor does crack me up.

Yeah Jurkin's never been healthy but players are always better when they're unavailable for whatever reason.
I remember chuckling quite a bit when Crean complained about Guy-Marc Michel's ineligibility, you would have thought Michel was Kevin Durant and Lebron James rolled into one.

[Assembly Hall]

Yeah Jurkin's never been healthy but players are always better when they're unavailable for whatever reason.
I remember chuckling quite a bit when Crean complained about Guy-Marc Michel's ineligibility, you would have thought Michel was Kevin Durant and Lebron James rolled into one.

Yepper!

[Revering4Blue]

Yeah Jurkin's never been healthy but players are always better when they're unavailable for whatever reason.
I remember chuckling quite a bit when Crean complained about Guy-Marc Michel's ineligibility, you would have thought Michel was Kevin Durant and Lebron James rolled into one.

To be fair, that last pre-Zeller year team had ZERO rim protection at all. Guy-Marc Michel could have at least provided that. Not to mention GMM could have served as a backup on the break-thru 2012 team, with additional interior defense, that team could well have proven to be even more dangerous.

[Revering4Blue]

This is one of those things people complain about that I understand to a point, but really don't get why people are so upset about it.

I mean have Perea and Jurkin really shown anything to demonstrate they deserve more playing time?

It's obviously disappointing that Perea and Jurkin haven't developed more, but do you really want them out there right now that much more than Jeff Howard?

Crean's always been such a stalwart about earning playing time in practice. It doesn't make much sense to assert that if you can't back it up as a coach. It especially doesn't make sense to assert it if you aren't going to back it up even when the scholarship players are not likely to play better than the walk-ons who are likely practicing better.

In Perea's case, heck yes in some cases.

I witnessed the Northwestern debacle firsthand, and while Howard entered the game and played meaningful minutes shutting down Drew Crawford in the process and allowing IU to get back in the game, that particular game against a much smaller opponent just screamed play Noah and HMP together.

The recent Duke/Syracuse game illustrated one textbook method of attacking the 2/3 zone and the same principles apply to attacking a packing-it-in defense....High - Low sets, which I've already outlined in a previous post. Also, by having both NV and HMP on the floor at same time, you virtually guarantee a weak side shot-blocking threat and on an offensively challenged team that needs to create offense from defense, improving interior defense-- and defense as whole -- even slightly could go a long way.

[Assembly Hall]

BTW Blue...how about that Notre Dame game where the Irish bigs chewed up the Hoosiers?

[gilpdawg]

Could we have a game where we don't turn the ball over 67 times?

[Revering4Blue]

Could we have a game where we don't turn the ball over 67 times?

I haven't checked them, but I'm fairly certain that IU's first half/second half splits in the B1G -- turnovers, shooting percentage, etc -- are putrid, especially on the road.

[Revering4Blue]

BTW Blue...how about that Notre Dame game where the Irish bigs chewed up the Hoosiers?

Thankfully, I was working and missed that game. My Dad, however, attended that game with a friend and Jared Jeffries, who is now a scout for the Nuggets just happened to be sitting right next to my Dad.

[Hoosier Red]

I haven't checked them, but I'm fairly certain that IU's first half/second half splits in the B1G -- turnovers, shooting percentage, etc -- are putrid, especially on the road.

No doubt. At the very least @Nebraska and @Minnesota looked exactly the same.

[Assembly Hall]

No doubt. At the very least @Nebraska and @Minnesota looked exactly the same.

I will definitely agree to that.

[Revering4Blue]

Collegeinsider.com tournament, here we come!

[dubc47834]

Up 10 with 3 minutes to go....and lose. Tom Crean is starting to wear thin on my nerves!!!

[Playadlc]

One of the most pathetic losses I can remember.

[Revering4Blue]

No positive spin at all. But I've got to tip my hat to Penn State and Patrick Chambers, the man can coach.

[Revering4Blue]

Up 10 with 3 minutes to go....and lose. Tom Crean is starting to wear thin on my nerves!!!

Yes I'm overreacting, but Gregg Marshall --The new Brad Stevens? --anyone?

[Hoosier Red]

Up 10 with 3 minutes to go....and lose. Tom Crean is starting to wear thin on my nerves!!!

Starting to? I thought I was the most patient fan out there, but man this season's already used up all mine.

[dubc47834]

Starting to? I thought I was the most patient fan out there, but man this season's already used up all mine.

Patient...lol....I was a Baker apologist. I cut more slack than most. Crean is running out!!!

[Hoosier Red]

Patient...lol....I was a Baker apologist. I cut more slack than most. Crean is running out!!!

I hear ya. I'm finally coming around on firing Gerry Dinardo. :)

[Hoosier Red]

Yes I'm overreacting, but Gregg Marshall --The new Brad Stevens? --anyone?

After watching Butler get their heads kicked in last night, I'm thinking Brad Stephens is happy he took the NBA money while he was still the flavor of the month.

I'm thinking McDermott and Marshall would have definitely supplanted him this year.

[Revering4Blue]

After watching Butler get their heads kicked in last night, I'm thinking Brad Stephens is happy he took the NBA money while he was still the flavor of the month.

I'm thinking McDermott and Marshall would have definitely supplanted him this year.

Yup.

The bloom would have come off the rose. Stevens got out of there at the right time.

[Boston Red]

Or maybe if Stevens was still there they'd still be winning. They had a pretty solid team last year.

[Assembly Hall]

I am just disgusted. I am tired of hearing about how young this team is. Me thinks we got some coaching issues.

[Assembly Hall]

No positive spin at all. But I've got to tip my hat to Penn State and Patrick Chambers, the man can coach.

Yes he can.

[Assembly Hall]

Yes I'm overreacting, but Gregg Marshall --The new Brad Stevens? --anyone?


My question is.....when can we get that deal done and get him to Bloomington asap?

[dubc47834]

My question is.....when can we get that deal done and get him to Bloomington asap?

As much as many IU fans would like that...it's not gonna happen!!!

[Assembly Hall]

As much as many IU fans would like that...it's not gonna happen!!!

LOL, a guy can dream can't he?

But I got to believe that CTC is walking a tight rope right now. See how the season plays out and see if Vonleh comes back. If Noah doesn't, I see next year being just like this one.

[dubc47834]

LOL, a guy can dream can't he?

But I got to believe that CTC is walking a tight rope right now. See how the season plays out and see if Vonleh comes back. If Noah doesn't, I see next year being just like this one.

Yeah, would be nice if Noah came back. I think Crean is definately on the hot seat, but is safe thru this year and possibly next.

[Revering4Blue]

Or maybe if Stevens was still there they'd still be winning. They had a pretty solid team last year.

They may have been better, but due to key graduation/injury losses, more than likely they wouldn't be the Butler that we all know and love.

Plus, there are no longer several Horizon league gimmes on the schedule anymore.

[Boston Red]

They may have been better, but due to key graduation/injury losses, more than likely they wouldn't be the Butler that we all know and love.

Plus, there are no longer several Horizon league gimmes on the schedule anymore.

They've lost three Big East games in OT. If Stevens was just worth a point or two a game to them, they could be .500 in the Big East. Not great, but not enough to take the bloom off the rose either.

[Mutaman]

Yup.

The bloom would have come off the rose. Stevens got out of there at the right time.

Toto, i have a feeling we're not in the Horizon league anymore.

[Assembly Hall]

Toto, i have a feeling we're not in the Horizon league anymore.


I thought they were in the A-10 last year?

[Revering4Blue]

I thought they were in the A-10 last year?

They were, but as I stated previously, last year's team was stronger personnel wise, which led some of us to believe that Stevens picked the right time to leave Butler.

Then again, given his X's and O's acumen, Stevens could probably lead a High School or Division II program to an NCAA Division I Final Four.

[Assembly Hall]

They were, but as I stated previously, last year's team was stronger personnel wise, which led some of us to believe that Stevens picked the right time to leave Butler.

Then again, given his X's and O's acumen, Stevens could probably lead a High School or Division II program to an NCAA Division I Final Four.

Yeah, I understand all that. Just confused me as to the Horizon references.

[redsfanmia]

Yeah, would be nice if Noah came back. I think Crean is definately on the hot seat, but is safe thru this year and possibly next.

Crean has a 10 year contract and is not going anywhere unless he gets caught cheating or Mark Cuban and Johnny Cougar buys out his contract.

[Assembly Hall]

Crean has a 10 year contract and is not going anywhere unless he gets caught cheating or Mark Cuban and Johnny Cougar buys out his contract.

I don't know about all that.

[Playadlc]

Doesn't Crean have like an 8 million dollar buyout?

Yeah, he's not going anywhere.

[Revering4Blue]

Doesn't Crean have like an 8 million dollar buyout?

Yeah, he's not going anywhere.

Supposedly, it drops to one or two million after next season.

Nevertheless, I doubt that anything will happen unless Vonleh, by some miracle, spurns the NBA and returns next season to team with the shooters and the team majorly underachieves next season.

[Mutaman]

I thought they were in the A-10 last year?

i was addressing those whose memory spans went back further than 12 months.

[Boston Red]

I cannot imagine Indiana is going to allow a buyout to force them to keep a guy they no longer want as a basketball coach. I have to think the minute IU decides Crean isn't the guy, he's gone.

He'd be perfect at DePaul. They, on the other hand, ARE likely to keep Purnell around for one more year to avoid paying a buyout, so the timing could work out.

[Revering4Blue]

I cannot imagine Indiana is going to allow a buyout to force them to keep a guy they no longer want as a basketball coach. I have to think the minute IU decides Crean isn't the guy, he's gone.

He'd be perfect at DePaul. They, on the other hand, ARE likely to keep Purnell around for one more year to avoid paying a buyout, so the timing could work out.

Not to sidetrack things, but that's an interesting scenario. I have to admit that I expected more from Purnell, but it is what is. That stated, whomever ultimately winds up at DePaul will benefit immensely from the new arena that is planned/under construction.

[Revering4Blue]

I cannot imagine Indiana is going to allow a buyout to force them to keep a guy they no longer want as a basketball coach. I have to think the minute IU decides Crean isn't the guy, he's gone.

He'd be perfect at DePaul. They, on the other hand, ARE likely to keep Purnell around for one more year to avoid paying a buyout, so the timing could work out.

That may be true, but then you run into potential pitfalls if a buyout is needed to hire a quality coach away from another school.

Case in point, in '06, IU had two buyouts already -- Davis and DiNardo -- and couldn't afford the buyout for their first choice. Otherwise, John Beilien would have been coach at IU.

[5TimeWSChamps]

Vonleh is going to end up going Top 5.

He's gone

Goodman has him going 6 right now, and he's better than Randle is:


Goodman: 2014 NBA mock draft 1.0
Kansas boasts two top-3 picks; Marcus Smart a late lottery selection
Updated: February 12, 2014, 11:53 AM ET
By Jeff Goodman | ESPN Insider
437
54
147
EMAIL
PRINT
NBA Mock Draft

Jeff Goodman discusses his first NBA mock draft and how far Marcus Smart has dropped.
Tags: Joel Embiid, Jabari Parker, Andrew Wiggins, Julius Randle, Marcus Smart, Kansas Jayhawks, Oklahoma State Cowboys
NEXT VIDEO video
Marcus Smart Addresses Media

Andrew Wiggins was the front-runner entering the season, but I cautioned people that there was a good chance he wouldn't end up going No. 1 come June.

Wiggins is still in the mix for the top spot, but after talking to numerous NBA executives and general managers, it's his teammate -- skilled 7-footer Joel Embiid -- who has surged to the front. In fact, Wiggins could slide all the way down to No. 3.

Most NBA folks agreed that the top five -- at this point in time -- is fairly solid. However, it gets complicated after that group, as there's a significant drop-off. This draft is loaded with quality wings, and eight of the top nine guys are freshmen, with the lone exception hailing from Australia.

Remember, this isn't a mock draft based on what I would do. It's based on information gathered from NBA executives, college coaches and other industry sources. The draft order is based off of Chad Ford's NBA 2014 Lottery Mock Draft tool and reverse standings as of Sunday, Feb. 9.


Freshman Tracker | Chad Ford Big Board 7.0

1. Joel Embiid | C | Milwaukee Bucks
College: Kansas | Age: 19 | 7-0, 250
Bucks GM John Hammond will choose the player he thinks has the best chance of being a star. Right now it's a three-man race, but sources indicate Hammond loves the skill, size and rapid progression of Embiid. The Cameroon native is new to the game and has tremendous upside. Embiid can help the Bucks on both ends of the court, and while he recently told ESPN.com he might return to school, most feel that he'll be in June's draft.


2. Jabari Parker | SF | Philadelphia 76ers
College: Duke | Age: 18 | 6-8, 241
New GM Sam Hinkie already has a talented young point guard in Michael Carter-Williams, and they drafted a defensive presence in Nerlens Noel -- so their biggest need is a big-time scoring wing. This won't be an easy call between Parker and Wiggins, but the Sixers need someone who can be a reliable scorer and Parker is more suited to help right away.

3. Andrew Wiggins | SG | Orlando Magic
College: Kansas | Age: 18 | 6-8, 200
General manager Rob Hennigan selected Victor Oladipo in the same spot a year ago, and he could add another freak athlete to the team in Wiggins. The Magic just need to accumulate talent, and Wiggins has as much as just about anyone in this draft.

4. Julius Randle | PF | Sacramento Kings
College: Kentucky | Age: 19 | 6-9, 225
The Kings could pair DeMarcus Cousins and Randle -- a pair of ex-Kentucky Wildcats -- together on the front line. Randle would alleviate pressure from Cousins because of Randle's ability to rebound at a high level. Randle's also capable of stepping out on the perimeter, which would allow the two to play together.

5. Dante Exum | G | Utah Jazz
Country: Australia | Age: 18 | 6-6, 188
The Jazz have a terrific young point guard in Trey Burke, and a couple of bigs in Derrick Favors and Enes Kanter. Utah could use a combo guard with size and athleticism. While Exum is a risk because of his relatively low exposure, he could pay off in long run and the Jazz might be getting a star.

6. Noah Vonleh | PF | Boston Celtics
College: Indiana | Age: 18 | 6-10, 240
Celtics boss Danny Ainge will take the player he feels has the best chance of becoming a star in the league, and that's Vonleh. He's a local kid who still is figuring out where to score, but he's a versatile forward who is coachable and just scratching the surface of his immense talent.

[Assembly Hall]

I found this, this morning........

http://www.indystar.com/story/sports/college/indiana/2014/02/13/tom-crean-fire-noah-vonleh-ncaa-tournament-indiana/5463621/

[Assembly Hall]

i was addressing those whose memory spans went back further than 12 months.

LOL.........trust me, I remember when Butler played in the MCC.

[WMR]

Did you guys hear that Hanner Perea was arrested for DUI?

From bad to worse.

[Hoosier Red]

Or maybe if Stevens was still there they'd still be winning. They had a pretty solid team last year.

I don't think that's likely. They lost a lot of talent either through graduation or injury. The Roosevelt Jones injury is really what crushed their season.

To answer Muta's point though, I don't think the Big East is really that much of a step up from last year's A-10. What it does have that the A-10 didn't is a much better bottom of the conference. Seton Hall and Depaul shouldn't really put fear into any team that truly fancies itself tournament quality. But they're certainly better than the dregs of the A-10 or 50% of the Horizon league.

[Hoosier Red]

Did you guys hear that Hanner Perea was arrested for DUI?

From bad to worse.

Yeah, Tom Crean's had better weeks I'm sure.

[dubc47834]

Did you guys hear that Hanner Perea was arrested for DUI?

From bad to worse.

:beerme:

[Assembly Hall]

Yepper....

http://www.insidethehall.com/2014/02/14/iu-sophomore-hanner-mosquera-perea-arrested/#more-36919

[Boston Red]

I don't think that's likely. They lost a lot of talent either through graduation or injury. The Roosevelt Jones injury is really what crushed their season.

To answer Muta's point though, I don't think the Big East is really that much of a step up from last year's A-10. What it does have that the A-10 didn't is a much better bottom of the conference. Seton Hall and Depaul shouldn't really put fear into any team that truly fancies itself tournament quality. But they're certainly better than the dregs of the A-10 or 50% of the Horizon league.

They were 10-2 in the non-conference with a pair of 2 point losses (one of them to then-#5 OK State). They've lost three conference games in OT, and they led Creighton in the final minute last night. They've lost four other Big East games by single digits.

Now, I'm not guaranteeing they'd be a whole lot better if Stevens was there, but doesn't it make sense that a team that is that close to having a REALLY good record might have some pretty different results under one of the best coaches in basketball instead of an untested rookie coach?

And the Big East is quite a bit better than the A-10. The A-10 is pretty solid this year, but top to bottom it's really not close. They'll both be similarly represented in March, but I don't think the A-10 has a threat to go deep (not buying SLU). Villanova is a legit Final Four contender, and if Creighton got hot I could see them winning six in March (conversely, if they have a bad shooting night, they could easily be bounced in the first game; those guys are hot and cold).

[Revering4Blue]

Did you guys hear that Hanner Perea was arrested for DUI?

From bad to worse.

Like getting caught in an excrement storm without an umbrella.

What else can go wrong? Wait..don't answer that.

[oregonred]

Where's the Indiana football thread :)

[gilpdawg]

Where's the Indiana football thread :)
Nobody cares. Most Indiana basketball fans follow Notre Dame football, which is extremely lame.

[Revering4Blue]

Vonleh is going to end up going Top 5.

He's gone

Goodman has him going 6 right now, and he's better than Randle is:


Goodman: 2014 NBA mock draft 1.0
Kansas boasts two top-3 picks; Marcus Smart a late lottery selection
Updated: February 12, 2014, 11:53 AM ET
By Jeff Goodman | ESPN Insider
437
54
147
EMAIL
PRINT
NBA Mock Draft

Jeff Goodman discusses his first NBA mock draft and how far Marcus Smart has dropped.
Tags: Joel Embiid, Jabari Parker, Andrew Wiggins, Julius Randle, Marcus Smart, Kansas Jayhawks, Oklahoma State Cowboys
NEXT VIDEO video
Marcus Smart Addresses Media

Andrew Wiggins was the front-runner entering the season, but I cautioned people that there was a good chance he wouldn't end up going No. 1 come June.

Wiggins is still in the mix for the top spot, but after talking to numerous NBA executives and general managers, it's his teammate -- skilled 7-footer Joel Embiid -- who has surged to the front. In fact, Wiggins could slide all the way down to No. 3.

Most NBA folks agreed that the top five -- at this point in time -- is fairly solid. However, it gets complicated after that group, as there's a significant drop-off. This draft is loaded with quality wings, and eight of the top nine guys are freshmen, with the lone exception hailing from Australia.

Remember, this isn't a mock draft based on what I would do. It's based on information gathered from NBA executives, college coaches and other industry sources. The draft order is based off of Chad Ford's NBA 2014 Lottery Mock Draft tool and reverse standings as of Sunday, Feb. 9.


Freshman Tracker | Chad Ford Big Board 7.0

1. Joel Embiid | C | Milwaukee Bucks
College: Kansas | Age: 19 | 7-0, 250
Bucks GM John Hammond will choose the player he thinks has the best chance of being a star. Right now it's a three-man race, but sources indicate Hammond loves the skill, size and rapid progression of Embiid. The Cameroon native is new to the game and has tremendous upside. Embiid can help the Bucks on both ends of the court, and while he recently told ESPN.com he might return to school, most feel that he'll be in June's draft.


2. Jabari Parker | SF | Philadelphia 76ers
College: Duke | Age: 18 | 6-8, 241
New GM Sam Hinkie already has a talented young point guard in Michael Carter-Williams, and they drafted a defensive presence in Nerlens Noel -- so their biggest need is a big-time scoring wing. This won't be an easy call between Parker and Wiggins, but the Sixers need someone who can be a reliable scorer and Parker is more suited to help right away.

3. Andrew Wiggins | SG | Orlando Magic
College: Kansas | Age: 18 | 6-8, 200
General manager Rob Hennigan selected Victor Oladipo in the same spot a year ago, and he could add another freak athlete to the team in Wiggins. The Magic just need to accumulate talent, and Wiggins has as much as just about anyone in this draft.

4. Julius Randle | PF | Sacramento Kings
College: Kentucky | Age: 19 | 6-9, 225
The Kings could pair DeMarcus Cousins and Randle -- a pair of ex-Kentucky Wildcats -- together on the front line. Randle would alleviate pressure from Cousins because of Randle's ability to rebound at a high level. Randle's also capable of stepping out on the perimeter, which would allow the two to play together.

5. Dante Exum | G | Utah Jazz
Country: Australia | Age: 18 | 6-6, 188
The Jazz have a terrific young point guard in Trey Burke, and a couple of bigs in Derrick Favors and Enes Kanter. Utah could use a combo guard with size and athleticism. While Exum is a risk because of his relatively low exposure, he could pay off in long run and the Jazz might be getting a star.

6. Noah Vonleh | PF | Boston Celtics
College: Indiana | Age: 18 | 6-10, 240
Celtics boss Danny Ainge will take the player he feels has the best chance of becoming a star in the league, and that's Vonleh. He's a local kid who still is figuring out where to score, but he's a versatile forward who is coachable and just scratching the surface of his immense talent.

Yeah, I read that yesterday. At this point, I wouldn't blame him for going to the NBA. After all, how much more is Vonleh going to develop in College with three people suffocating every time he touches the ball..and that isn't even taking into account the several trips down the court in which teammates seemingly forget that he's on the court and he never touches that ball at all.

[Revering4Blue]

Nobody cares. Most Indiana basketball fans follow Notre Dame football, which is extremely lame.

Sad, but spot-on.

[Assembly Hall]

Yeah, I read that yesterday. At this point, I wouldn't blame him for going to the NBA. After all, how much more is Vonleh going to develop in College with three people suffocating every time he touches the ball..and that isn't even taking into account the several trips down the court in which teammates seemingly forget that he's on the court and he never touches that ball at all.

Pitiful aint it?

[Revering4Blue]

I found this, this morning........

http://www.indystar.com/story/sports/college/indiana/2014/02/13/tom-crean-fire-noah-vonleh-ncaa-tournament-indiana/5463621/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ig4jbcU9db0

[Hoosier Red]

They were 10-2 in the non-conference with a pair of 2 point losses (one of them to then-#5 OK State). They've lost three conference games in OT, and they led Creighton in the final minute last night. They've lost four other Big East games by single digits.

Now, I'm not guaranteeing they'd be a whole lot better if Stevens was there, but doesn't it make sense that a team that is that close to having a REALLY good record might have some pretty different results under one of the best coaches in basketball instead of an untested rookie coach?

And the Big East is quite a bit better than the A-10. The A-10 is pretty solid this year, but top to bottom it's really not close. They'll both be similarly represented in March, but I don't think the A-10 has a threat to go deep (not buying SLU). Villanova is a legit Final Four contender, and if Creighton got hot I could see them winning six in March (conversely, if they have a bad shooting night, they could easily be bounced in the first game; those guys are hot and cold).

It's easy to imagine that the team would have won a number of the close games under Brad Stevens as opposed to Brandon Miller, however a lot of close losses doesn't necessarily mean the team is close. They've won a number of close games over not nearly prime time teams.

As for the A-10 vs. Big East comparison, sorry for being unclear. The Big East is obviously better than the A-10 this year. The A-10 lost 4 programs, 3 of which went to the tournament last year.)
But my point was that the jump from last year's A-10 to this year's Big East was not a huge jump. The biggest jump was in the lack of truly awful teams at the bottom of the conference.

[Assembly Hall]

Funny thing is that over a year ago...we all thought Stevens was going nowhere. That changed, he abruptly left for a great opportunity. Now we look back and say "dang, that was a pretty smart move". I say he saw the cards on the table the whole time.

[5TimeWSChamps]

Yeah, I read that yesterday. At this point, I wouldn't blame him for going to the NBA. After all, how much more is Vonleh going to develop in College with three people suffocating every time he touches the ball..and that isn't even taking into account the several trips down the court in which teammates seemingly forget that he's on the court and he never touches that ball at all.

I kinda am on the fence with the TWolves. I'm about to root for them to tank yet again. I want Vonleh bad.

[Revering4Blue]

I kinda am on the fence with the TWolves. I'm about to root for them to tank yet again. I want Vonleh bad.

If Vonleh, indeed, declares for the draft, I would love to see that happen. Granted, a lot depends on what happens with Kevin Love, but Vonleh should fit in perfectly within the TWolves system, which could use more athleticism and rim protection up front.

[Revering4Blue]

Funny thing is that over a year ago...we all thought Stevens was going nowhere. That changed, he abruptly left for a great opportunity. Now we look back and say "dang, that was a pretty smart move". I say he saw the cards on the table the whole time.

It was the right time move on, but only if something (not just monetarily) extraordinary was out there--like a chance to coach for one of the most storied pro franchises, which we know transpired.

While one can argue that Butler moving on to a more "prestigious" conference increases recruiting possibilities, which in turn creates a "stronger" NCAA Program, Here's the counter argument: The goal is obviously to be crowned NCAA champion, and qualifying for the NCAA tourney itself is half of the battle right there.

This is certainly not meant as a knock against Stevens, but let's face it, compared with this new Big East or even the A-10, the Horizon wasn't exactly murderers row. If your non-conference schedule was difficult enough to increase your RPI -- as it usually was -- and you proceed to run roughshod through your conference, you are virtually guaranteed a spot in the Big Dance.

This is the same reason that coaches like Marshall, Smart and Few, who are following virtually the same blueprint --and to an extent, Jerry Tarkianian at UNLV did, as well -- as Stevens and his recent predecessors at Butler, are, IMO better served staying where they are. This the beauty of NCAA B-Ball, unlike Major NCAA Football, an affiliation with a "Major" is unnecessary for a shot at the big prize. Why create a tougher path to the tourney itself? Granted, by not parlaying coaching a mid-major into a "better" job, you also run the risk of becoming the next Chris Lowery at SIU, but his situation seemed like an outlier to me.

[Playadlc]

This team is just absolute garbage.

[dubc47834]

This team is just absolute garbage.

Either these guys can't figure the game out, or they aren't being coached worth a crap at practice. Like Dakich just said, every offensive possession they look lost. This is starting to get so very frustrating. I can deal with a loss and losing if the team was beat by a better team, but we are beating ourselves EVERY game. This is beyond frustrating!!!

[dubc47834]

This is a butt whooping like we got 3-4 years ago...embarrassing!!!

[WMR]

Saw that Crean has like a 12 million dollar buyout this year or something??!!

IU gave him that huge extension way too prematurely.

Not sure IU can afford to fire him for at least 3 seasons unless John Cougar or Mark Cuban step up.

[Revering4Blue]

Saw that Crean has like a 12 million dollar buyout this year or something??!!

IU gave him that huge extension way too prematurely.

Not sure IU can afford to fire him for at least 3 seasons unless John Cougar or Mark Cuban step up.

The extension began before the start of last season, with an 8 million dollar buyout the first two seasons -- the '13 and '14 seasons -- and drops to 1 million following the conclusion of next season.

[WMR]

The extension began before the start of last season, with an 8 million dollar buyout the first two seasons -- the '13 and '14 seasons -- and drops to 1 million following the conclusion of next season.

What I saw was different. If you could provide a link I'd appreciate it.

[Revering4Blue]

What I saw was different. If you could provide a link I'd appreciate it.

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/8612449/indiana-hoosiers-sign-tom-crean-contract-extension


Indiana extends Tom Crean to 2020
Updated: November 10, 2012


Crean's base salary will go from approximately $2.52 million per year to $3.16 million. The deal also includes performance bonuses based on Academic Progress Rate scores, Graduation Success Rate scores and the team's GPA. If all standards are met, Crean's salary could increase by as much as $55,000 per year.

The buyout, Glass said, would cost $8 million over the next three years, then drops to $1 million in Year 4 and drops again to $500,000 over the final four years of the deal. School officials said additional contract details will be announce when the deal is formally signed.

[Assembly Hall]

I am just shaking my head. I give up. Fire Crean and hire someone that aint more worried about tanning sessions than coaching.

[Revering4Blue]

This is a butt whooping like we got 3-4 years ago...embarrassing!!!

I was working and missed that turd fest of a game. For the sake of sanity, I'm treating the remainder of the season just like the (how fitting?) "conference bedpan" years that you mentioned -- kudos to Razor for that line -- expecting the worst, hoping for the best.

[Assembly Hall]

I was working and missed that turd fest of a game. For the sake of sanity, I'm treating the remainder of the season just like the (how fitting?) "conference bedpan" years that you mentioned -- kudos to Razor for that line -- expecting the worst, hoping for the best.

I was at an ice fishing tournament on Wawasee and missed it myself. However the guys on the ice were aware and giving me updates. Not only did the Hoosiers lay a primo egg, they messed up my mojo trying to catch fish!!!!!!

[Revering4Blue]

I was at an ice fishing tournament on Wawasee and missed it myself. However the guys on the ice were aware and giving me updates. Not only did the Hoosiers lay a primo egg, they messed up my mojo trying to catch fish!!!!!!

Further proof that too much technology sometimes isn't a good thing. I hope you that you had a good time, anyway. No matter the season, Wawasee is a great place to be.

[Hillsdale87]

Either these guys can't figure the game out, or they aren't being coached worth a crap at practice. Like Dakich just said, every offensive possession they look lost. This is starting to get so very frustrating. I can deal with a loss and losing if the team was beat by a better team, but we are beating ourselves EVERY game. This is beyond frustrating!!!

I don't think the issue is practices. It seems like Crean prepares the guys pretty well, and they come out strong. There have been very few times the team has laid an egg in the first half. The problem is that they consistently lose the second half. Crean is getting outmaneuvered by coaches who make adjustments at halftime, and he doesn't respond. In the last 5 losses (MSU, Nebraska, Minnesota, PSU, and Purdue), IU has been outscored by a combined 56 points in the second half and led at halftime in 4 of those games. Some of this can be chalked up to youth (I don't put too much of the PSU loss on Crean - the reason that PSU came back is because the players inexplicably forgot how to throw an inbounds pass), but much of this falls on the coach.

One issue that I think can be addressed in practice, and is one of Crean's biggest failings, is the turnovers. This should not still be the huge problem that it is.

[dubc47834]

I don't think the issue is practices. It seems like Crean prepares the guys pretty well, and they come out strong. There have been very few times the team has laid an egg in the first half. The problem is that they consistently lose the second half. Crean is getting outmaneuvered by coaches who make adjustments at halftime, and he doesn't respond. In the last 5 losses (MSU, Nebraska, Minnesota, PSU, and Purdue), IU has been outscored by a combined 56 points in the second half and led at halftime in 4 of those games. Some of this can be chalked up to youth (I don't put too much of the PSU loss on Crean - the reason that PSU came back is because the players inexplicably forgot how to throw an inbounds pass), but much of this falls on the coach.

One issue that I think can be addressed in practice, and is one of Crean's biggest failings, is the turnovers. This should not still be the huge problem that it is.

I totally understand what you are saying, but the stupid turnovers like 5 and 10 second calls all should be things that have been worked on in practice. Does that mean they will never happen...no, but it does mean they shouldn't happen multiple times...in a half. Also, the turnovers are what's getting us beat in these 2nd halves. I have been a huge Crean supporter, I don't think it's time to give up on him either, but with each passing game that is played like crap I lose a little bit of that support. Crean is a great recruiter, but him in game adjustments and X's and O's are lacking. He needs Vonleh to stay another year and for next years recruiting class to be as good of shooters as they are made out to be. Also, the real Jeremy Hollowel needs to stand up!!!

[Hillsdale87]

I totally understand what you are saying, but the stupid turnovers like 5 and 10 second calls all should be things that have been worked on in practice. Does that mean they will never happen...no, but it does mean they shouldn't happen multiple times...in a half.

True they should be worked on in practice, but these are such basic things. It's just a matter of being aware on the court, and that is something they players need to take responsibility for. When Stan got a 10 second call last week, he was clearly oblivious to the time on the clock. That is his issue. The inbounds passes... yes you work on it. But on Hollowell's inbounds pass, he he Yogi streaking open across his face and held onto it. Sheehey had Yogi open on his pass and threw it five feet behind him. And Vonleh's was just a mind-numbing play. Those were primarily execution issues.

Half-court offense though... that's all on Crean. The offense is essentially: Step 1 - give it to Yogi; Step 2 - hope he does something awesome. Some of this is because of a lack of talent, but even still, there is very little purposeful movement.

[dubc47834]

True they should be worked on in practice, but these are such basic things. It's just a matter of being aware on the court, and that is something they players need to take responsibility for. When Stan got a 10 second call last week, he was clearly oblivious to the time on the clock. That is his issue. The inbounds passes... yes you work on it. But on Hollowell's inbounds pass, he he Yogi streaking open across his face and held onto it. Sheehey had Yogi open on his pass and threw it five feet behind him. And Vonleh's was just a mind-numbing play. Those were primarily execution issues.

Half-court offense though... that's all on Crean. The offense is essentially: Step 1 - give it to Yogi; Step 2 - hope he does something awesome. Some of this is because of a lack of talent, but even still, there is very little purposeful movement.

Step 1 should be give it to Yogi, Step 2 should be Yogi gives ball to Vonleh, Step 3 should be hope Yogi or Noah do something awesome...:beerme:

[Boston Red]

The roof collapsed at Assembly Hall? Highly symbolic.

[Hoosier Red]

Best line I heard so far:

"Probably a result of too many court stormings."

[Hillsdale87]

Step 1 should be give it to Yogi, Step 2 should be Yogi gives ball to Vonleh, Step 3 should be hope Yogi or Noah do something awesome...:beerme:

Crean needs to be able to figure out how to get other guys involved creatively, but I don't have a ton of confidence that he can do that. With Troy Williams, for instance, he is far from a finished product, and I expect him to be a very good player for IU in the future. However, right now he is basically an out of control elite athlete. He makes some good hustle plays, and he is pretty effective in transition because of his athleticism. But he is basically worthless in the halfcourt because he doesn't shoot threes (or at least shouldn't) and cannot create his own shot. A good offensive coach would figure out ways to have him catch the ball on the move to be able to use that athleticism to get into the lane and to the rim.

Stan is another guy who could be so much more effective in a good offense. He is a pretty crafty player who can create his own shot better than most, but again, he is creating all on his own. I know it's not fair to compare Crean to Knight, but Stan would fill it up in Knight's offense. He reminds me a lot of Andre Emmett, who was a star in Knight's first few years at Texas Tech. Not much of an outside game, but a unique ability to get into the lane and crafty around the rim.

[SunDeck]

The roof is falling in on Indiana Basketball. Literally (http://www.indystar.com/story/sports/college/indiana/2014/02/18/assembly-hall-indiana-university-basketball/5584355/).

[dabvu2498]

Best line I heard so far:

"Probably a result of too many court stormings."

Actually it was all the Sweet 16 banners weighing it down.

[Assembly Hall]

Further proof that too much technology sometimes isn't a good thing. I hope you that you had a good time, anyway. No matter the season, Wawasee is a great place to be.

Had a fabulous time. I love fishing and particularly ice fishing. I love that lake.

[Assembly Hall]

True they should be worked on in practice, but these are such basic things. It's just a matter of being aware on the court, and that is something they players need to take responsibility for. When Stan got a 10 second call last week, he was clearly oblivious to the time on the clock. That is his issue. The inbounds passes... yes you work on it. But on Hollowell's inbounds pass, he he Yogi streaking open across his face and held onto it. Sheehey had Yogi open on his pass and threw it five feet behind him. And Vonleh's was just a mind-numbing play. Those were primarily execution issues.

Half-court offense though... that's all on Crean. The offense is essentially: Step 1 - give it to Yogi; Step 2 - hope he does something awesome. Some of this is because of a lack of talent, but even still, there is very little purposeful movement.

You are dead on my friend.

[Assembly Hall]

The roof is falling in on Indiana Basketball. Literally (http://www.indystar.com/story/sports/college/indiana/2014/02/18/assembly-hall-indiana-university-basketball/5584355/).

And when it just couldn't get any worse? AAAAAArrrrrrrgh.

[Assembly Hall]

Actually it was all the Sweet 16 banners weighing it down.

I don't know bro. Those championship banners are pretty heavy. Thank God Vandy has no issues with this sort of thing.

[Assembly Hall]

Crean needs to be able to figure out how to get other guys involved creatively, but I don't have a ton of confidence that he can do that. With Troy Williams, for instance, he is far from a finished product, and I expect him to be a very good player for IU in the future. However, right now he is basically an out of control elite athlete. He makes some good hustle plays, and he is pretty effective in transition because of his athleticism. But he is basically worthless in the halfcourt because he doesn't shoot threes (or at least shouldn't) and cannot create his own shot. A good offensive coach would figure out ways to have him catch the ball on the move to be able to use that athleticism to get into the lane and to the rim.

Stan is another guy who could be so much more effective in a good offense. He is a pretty crafty player who can create his own shot better than most, but again, he is creating all on his own. I know it's not fair to compare Crean to Knight, but Stan would fill it up in Knight's offense. He reminds me a lot of Andre Emmett, who was a star in Knight's first few years at Texas Tech. Not much of an outside game, but a unique ability to get into the lane and crafty around the rim.

Hmmmmmmm. Great observations.

[Chip R]

The roof collapsed at Assembly Hall? Highly symbolic.

Have to wonder if they will play there again this year.

[Assembly Hall]

Have to wonder if they will play there again this year.

They have rarely played there this year the way it stands anyway!!!!!!!!:laugh:

[SunDeck]

Reporting says these pieces are not structural. I'm guessing they will get it sorted out soon and finish the home season.
Although I sort of wish it could just be over now.

[Assembly Hall]

Don't know if this is good news or not...

http://www.indystar.com/story/sports/college/indiana/2014/02/19/indiana-university-assembly-hall-basketball/5613941/

[dubc47834]

Don't know if this is good news or not...

http://www.indystar.com/story/sports/college/indiana/2014/02/19/indiana-university-assembly-hall-basketball/5613941/

I watched the press conference they had yesterday afternoon. They said that the roof of Assembly Hall has a design where the roof slants inward and that this was the most snow that the roof had ever seen. The snow had caused the roof to flex, thus popping that 50lb metal plate off. They also said that numerous other plates were loose, but were not in any danger of falling. You can watch the press conference on insidethehall.com.

[Assembly Hall]

Didn't the ladies play there last night?

[dubc47834]

Didn't the ladies play there last night?

I thought it was canceled also, could have heard wrong tho!

[Assembly Hall]

I thought it was canceled also, could have heard wrong tho!

They played.....

http://www.iuhoosiers.com/sports/w-baskbl/recaps/021914aaa.html

[dubc47834]

They played.....

http://www.iuhoosiers.com/sports/w-baskbl/recaps/021914aaa.html

Good to see things back to normal!

[Assembly Hall]

Good to see things back to normal!

Yep, another loss at home!!!!!!!!!

[Revering4Blue]

Indiana’s game with Iowa will be played on Thursday., Feb. 27 at 9 p.m. at Assembly Hall.

[Assembly Hall]

Indiana’s game with Iowa will be played on Thursday., Feb. 27 at 9 p.m. at Assembly Hall.

And the misery continues.....

[Assembly Hall]

I apologize fellas. I hate to sound so negative. But I am fed up. I gave CTC a pass these last couple of years...I am done doing that. He as used up all my "gimme's". Did Bob Knight ever rebuild after a successful season? Hell no, he re-loaded. Look it up. That is what I am used to. Geez, I thought we were seeing the light at the end of the tunnel. But now I see darkness, yet once again.

[Revering4Blue]

Shooters/well-rounded guards Blackman Jr. and Robert Johnson will be arriving next year, so there's that.

However, competent post play -- with or without Vonleh -- will be a must. Otherwise, the light at the tunnel will be the proverbial train.

[WMR]

In retrospect, running off Creek wasn't a very smart decision.

[Assembly Hall]

In retrospect, running off Creek wasn't a very smart decision.

Kick me when I am down!!!!!!!!!!:beerme::beerme:

[Assembly Hall]

Shooters/well-rounded guards Blackman Jr. and Robert Johnson will be arriving next year, so there's that.

However, competent post play -- with or without Vonleh -- will be a must. Otherwise, the light at the tunnel will be the proverbial train.


What we gonna do next year Blue? Start 5 guards and when we need a post player call the tavern and tell Hanner to suit up? Sorry, I couldn't resist!

[Revering4Blue]

What we gonna do next year Blue? Start 5 guards and when we need a post player call the tavern and tell Hanner to suit up? Sorry, I couldn't resist!

Peter Jurkin to the rescue.;) Any truth to the rumor that his middle name is "Ben"? :D

[Revering4Blue]

What we gonna do next year Blue? Start 5 guards and when we need a post player call the tavern and tell Hanner to suit up? Sorry, I couldn't resist!

:lol: :lol:

Good, fun humor will help to get us through this mess.

[Revering4Blue]

In retrospect, running off Creek wasn't a very smart decision.

This over-signing/"Creaning" bites.

Another example: Think IU could have used Matt Roth's three-point shooting against Syracuse's 2-3 zone last year?

[Hoosier Red]

I apologize fellas. I hate to sound so negative. But I am fed up. I gave CTC a pass these last couple of years...I am done doing that. He as used up all my "gimme's". Did Bob Knight ever rebuild after a successful season? Hell no, he re-loaded. Look it up. That is what I am used to. Geez, I thought we were seeing the light at the end of the tunnel. But now I see darkness, yet once again.

Please don't compare. 1) Bob Knight is probably one of the top 5-10 college coaches of all time. It's quite possible for Crean to not be as good as Knight, yet still be successful. 2) Completely different era. Then even a mediocre team made tourney. Much more difficult now.

None of that says Crean is the right guy, but if he's not, it will be based on his own merits.

[Revering4Blue]

Please don't compare. 1) Bob Knight is probably one of the top 5-10 college coaches of all time. It's quite possible for Crean to not be as good as Knight, yet still be successful. 2) Completely different era. Then even a mediocre team made tourney. Much more difficult now.

None of that says Crean is the right guy, but if he's not, it will be based on his own merits.

I'm not so sure that I agree with the bolded point. But other than that, really good points.

[SunDeck]

I wonder where IU would be this year if the NBA draft hadn't come calling? Better to compare him to coaches who are thriving in the current environment than Knight. Personally, I think what he did to get the program righted was nothing short of incredible; the guy brought the team back into the top ten, got many ex players from RMK's era to return to campus and re-engaged the fan base. For that, he at least deserves a shot to respond to this season. Will he be able to do it? I don't know, but because of his efforts to rebuild the infrastructure IU can legitimately believe they can attract an elite coach to fill his shoes, a better position than they were in when they hired him.

[Assembly Hall]

Peter Jurkin to the rescue.;) Any truth to the rumor that his middle name is "Ben"? :D

All I know is Peter "Ben" sittin'!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:beerme:

[Assembly Hall]

Please don't compare. 1) Bob Knight is probably one of the top 5-10 college coaches of all time. It's quite possible for Crean to not be as good as Knight, yet still be successful. 2) Completely different era. Then even a mediocre team made tourney. Much more difficult now.

None of that says Crean is the right guy, but if he's not, it will be based on his own merits.


I am not comparing the coaches, I am comparing the teams on the floor. IU basketball is IU basketball. I could care less about era's. Last time I checked they won a title in '40, another in '53, again in '76, another in '81, and lastly in '87. Heck even Mike Davis took them to a title game. I could care less who is coaching, there is a tradition there that has a measuring stick.

[SunDeck]

Pardon me, but that sure read like a comparison of coaches :p.

I may be overly sensitive and just tired of all the old people here walking around with Texas Tech hats and jackets, but the point is valid, there certainly is an expectation that IU basketball will/should be in the realm of programs that more often than not are in the hunt for a national championship, as they were during the height of Knight's career at IU. While I am somewhat perplexed at the way in which people are suddenly down on Crean, seeming to forget where they were when he started just a few years ago, I understand their feelings; the program is "back" and they just aren't going to give a guy slack if his team doesn't stay there year in and year out, whether it's Crean or anyone else. From the outside looking in, it must seem IU has no claim to elite status, given the 27 year banner drought, but you won't ever convince the fan base of that. Present students may differ, which is why they practically storm the court for turnovers, but these debates have no end. To me, the impatience is equal parts love for IU (what else is there to do in Indiana, really?), unmerited ego and fear of not dominating SOMETHING in the conference.

[Assembly Hall]

SD, I suppose it did sound like a comparison. My age means that I grew up watching IU basketball and RMK just happened to be the coach. I was just pointing out that IMO that IU basketball was never down for long in his tenure. They were always relevant. Bobby took some hits as well, due to injuries more so than the NBA draft. Although the draft did cost the Hoosiers in his day as well. George McGinnis and Isaiah Thomas.

I am just a frustrated fan.

[Chip R]

Seems to me that Crean recruits different players than Knight did. The vast majority of Knight's players were not players who would bolt for the NBA after a year or so. Knight's initial success also came in an era where there was no shot clock, no 3 point shot and players stayed 4 years. He also had success with the shot clock and the 3 point shot and that's to his credit but there has been a drought since 87. Crean's teams have not won any titles but they have been very successful over the past few years. Maybe if he could keep his players for 4 years like Knight did they would win a title or two.

[SunDeck]

SD, I suppose it did sound like a comparison. My age means that I grew up watching IU basketball and RMK just happened to be the coach. I was just pointing out that IMO that IU basketball was never down for long in his tenure. They were always relevant. Bobby took some hits as well, due to injuries more so than the NBA draft. Although the draft did cost the Hoosiers in his day as well. George McGinnis and Isaiah Thomas.

I am just a frustrated fan.

It's a credit to RMK that Hoosier fans are impatient. It's like those of us who grew up watching the BRM; we may not have understood what we were witnessing because the wins came so easily and now we expect that to be the status quo. Knight is a giant of basketball and it's probably safe to say his achievements at IU may remain forever unequaled. IU has been really fortunate in other sports too. I swim at the SRSC and the banners in there and the list of Olympians from the Counsilman era never cease to boggle my mind. And then there's Jerry Yeagley. All three of these guys were there at the same time, too, quite an elite trio.

[Assembly Hall]

Good stuff Sun Deck. Made me think of days gone by.:beerme:


Btw in approximately 3 hours I will be madder than a hornet again!!!!!!

[dubc47834]

Call me stupid...I have a good feeling about this game.....?

[Assembly Hall]

Call me stupid...I have a good feeling about this game.....?

A Band-Aid has just been applied to my open wound!

[Revering4Blue]

Only seven turnovers. For once, the Hoosiers didn't look like the Keystone Cops out there.

[Assembly Hall]

Only seven turnovers. For once, the Hoosiers didn't look like the Keystone Cops out there.


LOL, quite refreshing wasn't it? I will also add I thought they looked as good as I have seen them in their half-court offense.

[Assembly Hall]

Seems to me that Crean recruits different players than Knight did. The vast majority of Knight's players were not players who would bolt for the NBA after a year or so. Knight's initial success also came in an era where there was no shot clock, no 3 point shot and players stayed 4 years. He also had success with the shot clock and the 3 point shot and that's to his credit but there has been a drought since 87. Crean's teams have not won any titles but they have been very successful over the past few years. Maybe if he could keep his players for 4 years like Knight did they would win a title or two.


I don't think it is recruiting different players, it is just a different time. The players stuck around at all the big schools for the most part. It wasn't until the 80's that guys started going into the draft early. You got to remember that it wasn't until the 80's that the NBA got big(Bird and Majic) and money got big as well. To my knowledge Knight had 2 players leave early to enter the draft, both departures hurt IU the following year but the teams still made the NCAA's. Crean has had two guys leave, and they both did it the same year. It hurt, but so did losing the other 3 seniors from that year as well.

[SunDeck]

What struck me watching those teams in the seventies and eighties was that they just seemed very different. I always thought they played with a discipline to the coaches' program that other teams didn't and I figured he recruited players who were able to sustain that, who could submit to the concept that creativity was allowed, but only insofar as it was applied to his strict play routines and pieces. It really made for beautiful basketball; I was not an IU fan as a kid, but if an IU game was on TV, it would never fail to capture my attention. From interviews, I gather he always aimed to lock up any kid in the region who could fit into the program, not ignoring the national scene, but recognizing that he needed kids who would totally buy into his philosophy.

[Chip R]

From interviews, I gather he always aimed to lock up any kid in the region who could fit into the program, not ignoring the national scene, but recognizing that he needed kids who would totally buy into his philosophy.

I think, for a while, he only recruited kids from Illinois, Indiana and Ohio.

[Assembly Hall]

I think, for a while, he only recruited kids from Illinois, Indiana and Ohio.

I don't know if that is all he recruited, but that is all he got. Jimmy Thomas('81 Championship Team) was the first under Knight's regime to come from outside that three state area. But if I remember right, his parents had ties to IU in some fashion. After that he took kids in from all over, including International ones.

[SunDeck]

I don't know if that is all he recruited, but that is all he got. Jimmy Thomas('81 Championship Team) was the first under Knight's regime to come from outside that three state area. But if I remember right, his parents had ties to IU in some fashion. After that he took kids in from all over, including International ones.

Yes, who could forget Uwe Blab!
I am guessing there was a strong and loyal network of coaches trying to teach kids to play his offense in Indiana high schools, hoping to connect with Knight by sending him quality recruits. Can you imagine what it would have done for a coach's credibility to have St. Bobby showing up at his gym on some Friday night?

[Orenda]

lots of good regional players close already, the program could stay ranked even without national recruiting, but wheres the fun in that? Waste some money, go take a vacation to austrailia and bring back some playas.

Anybody watch the New Mexico game last night? They got two wins over top 10 teams. Just sayin

[Assembly Hall]

Yes, who could forget Uwe Blab!
I am guessing there was a strong and loyal network of coaches trying to teach kids to play his offense in Indiana high schools, hoping to connect with Knight by sending him quality recruits. Can you imagine what it would have done for a coach's credibility to have St. Bobby showing up at his gym on some Friday night?

Good ole Uwe!

One thing people forget about concerning the 70's and into the 80's is that Purdue was pretty dang good as well. It aint like RMK had this state to himself.

[Hillsdale87]

I apologize fellas. I hate to sound so negative. But I am fed up. I gave CTC a pass these last couple of years...I am done doing that. He as used up all my "gimme's". Did Bob Knight ever rebuild after a successful season? Hell no, he re-loaded.

Not a Crean supporter at all and wouldn't be upset if he moves on in a couple years, but I'm not sure this is fair. Why do you give Crean a pass for the last couple years? His last two seasons were impressive. IU overachieved under Crean two years ago, and last year they just peaked too early. But they went into the tournament as a top 3 team. That is commendable. Yes the Sweet 16 loss was disappointing, but Syracuse was a good team too. Yes the #1 seed is expected to win a Sweet 16 game, but not a horrible loss.

This year has been extremely disappointing, but that does happen sometimes. UK last year is a great example, but nobody was looking to get rid of Coach Cal last year (I understand that Crean is not quite on Cal's level). IU this year is actually pretty comparable to UK's team last year. They lost a lot of guys from the previous year, and then most of the new guys didn't play as expected. For this team, Yogi is the only consistent offensive player. Vonleh is great on the boards, but he's inconsistent on offense. Sheehey, Hollowell, and Parea were all expected to make big improvements this year, and they have not done that. It actually looks like they've regressed. And Gordon, who was expected to be a solid contributor, has basically been an offensive zero.

I don't think it's fair to judge Crean based on this year. But we'll see what happens in the next couple years. If he can somehow get Vonleh to stay, they will be very good next year. If not, it could be pretty rough. If he has two straight sub-par years, he should be facing significant pressure.

[redsfanmia]

I think, for a while, he only recruited kids from Illinois, Indiana and Ohio.

The program started to go down once RMK started going out of state to recruit, Mike D pretty much refused to recruit Indiana and that was one of his downfalls. If IU and Purdue closed the state borders for recruiting they would contend for Conference titles nearly every yea

[Assembly Hall]

Not a Crean supporter at all and wouldn't be upset if he moves on in a couple years, but I'm not sure this is fair. Why do you give Crean a pass for the last couple years? His last two seasons were impressive. IU overachieved under Crean two years ago, and last year they just peaked too early. But they went into the tournament as a top 3 team. That is commendable. Yes the Sweet 16 loss was disappointing, but Syracuse was a good team too. Yes the #1 seed is expected to win a Sweet 16 game, but not a horrible loss.

This year has been extremely disappointing, but that does happen sometimes. UK last year is a great example, but nobody was looking to get rid of Coach Cal last year (I understand that Crean is not quite on Cal's level). IU this year is actually pretty comparable to UK's team last year. They lost a lot of guys from the previous year, and then most of the new guys didn't play as expected. For this team, Yogi is the only consistent offensive player. Vonleh is great on the boards, but he's inconsistent on offense. Sheehey, Hollowell, and Parea were all expected to make big improvements this year, and they have not done that. It actually looks like they've regressed. And Gordon, who was expected to be a solid contributor, has basically been an offensive zero.

I don't think it's fair to judge Crean based on this year. But we'll see what happens in the next couple years. If he can somehow get Vonleh to stay, they will be very good next year. If not, it could be pretty rough. If he has two straight sub-par years, he should be facing significant pressure.

The pass on my end was due to my admiration of what CTC came into and how he handled it.

[Assembly Hall]

The program started to go down once RMK started going out of state to recruit, Mike D pretty much refused to recruit Indiana and that was one of his downfalls. If IU and Purdue closed the state borders for recruiting they would contend for Conference titles nearly every yea

I disagree. Let me see.............Quinn Buckner, Scott May, Butch Carter, Isiah Thomas, Jim Thomas, Tony Brown, Dean Garrett, Keith Smart?????????

RMK's downfall was when guys from out of state weren't as good as the hype.....Andrae Patterson, Charlie Miller, Richard Mandeville, Jason Collier...etc.

But I will agree that IU doesn't need to go outside the state to find competitive talent.

[Revering4Blue]

Good ole Uwe!

One thing people forget about concerning the 70's and into the 80's is that Purdue was pretty dang good as well. It aint like RMK had this state to himself.

This is so true. Notre Dame was also a top-flight program back then and even though very few ND players played high school ball in Indiana, a great deal of them played high school ball in Knight's prime recruiting area of Illinois and Ohio. John Paxson, for example, was from Dayton, IIRC.

[Revering4Blue]

The program started to go down once RMK started going out of state to recruit, Mike D pretty much refused to recruit Indiana and that was one of his downfalls. If IU and Purdue closed the state borders for recruiting they would contend for Conference titles nearly every yea

For the most part, this post is spot-on, IMO. The bolded point is where I slightly disagree. IMO, it wasn't so much RMK going out of state that started the downfall; it was also RMK spending too much time and energy outside of the areas that Chip mentioned: Illinois and Ohio and later on he basically spent very little time and energy recruiting altogether -- Jared Jeffries, who was right in his own backyard, a notable exception.

And to piggyback on Assembly Hall's spot-on post about both successful and underachieving recruits from outside of the state of Indiana -- some of whom were from well outside of the Tri - State (Indiana, Illinois and Ohio) -- it also didn't help that some prized recruits from within the state of Indiana either transferred for whatever reason (Luke Recker) or proved to be complete knuckleheads (Sherron Wilkerson), which resulted in attempting to fill the transfer void with JUCOs that never really panned out.

While one can argue, as I do, that at least on paper, Knight's final teams following the '94 Sweet 16 entry should have better than they were. Why they were not is anyone's guess.

Either, as AH pointed out -- and also redsfanmia in a previous post some time ago -- highly -touted recruits as they were, they simply were not that talented. It is also painfully obvious now that some who arrived after the '94 Sweet 16 team were not at all receptive to Knight's style of coaching. Lastly, team chemistry: As we all know, College or Pro, no matter how good you look on paper, instead of blending well into a cohesive unit, teams sometimes mix together like Whiskey and Ovaltine. Thems the breaks.

[Assembly Hall]

This is so true. Notre Dame was also a top-flight program back then and even though very few ND players played high school ball in Indiana, a great deal of them played high school ball in Knight's prime recruiting area of Illinois and Ohio. John Paxson, for example, was from Dayton, IIRC.

It is kind of ironic that quite a few of the Notre Dame buddies I have say that Notre Dame went in the tank when they started recruiting Indiana kids!

[Assembly Hall]

And to piggyback on Assembly Hall's spot-on post about both successful and underachieving recruits from outside of the state of Indiana -- some of whom were from well outside of the Tri - State (Indiana, Illinois and Ohio) -- it also didn't help that some prized recruits from within the state of Indiana either transferred for whatever reason (Luke Recker) or proved to be complete knuckleheads (Sherron Wilkerson), which resulted in attempting to fill the transfer void with JUCOs that never really panned out.

While one can argue, as I do, that at least on paper, Knight's final teams following the '94 Sweet 16 entry should have better than they were. Why they were not is anyone's guess.

Those years after the '94 season were something else. I'd get my hopes up and the season would end miserably. One guy I always scratched my head about was Michael Lewis.

[Hoosier Red]

Those years after the '94 season were something else. I'd get my hopes up and the season would end miserably. One guy I always scratched my head about was Michael Lewis.

My freshman year at IU was '96-'97. It's funny because I honestly remember that class to be a disappointment, but Lewis finished as the all time assist leader at IU and Guyton was an All-American.

[Assembly Hall]

My freshman year at IU was '96-'97. It's funny because I honestly remember that class to be a disappointment, but Lewis finished as the all time assist leader at IU and Guyton was an All-American.

Michael Lewis was a scorer in high school. I do believe he led the state his senior year at over 30 ppg. He gets to IU and he forgets to shoot? Guyton was something else, he was a player.

[Revering4Blue]

Speaking of past recruiting classes, here they are. Read 'em and weep.

http://mypage.iu.edu/~dyeskie/iurecruitsbyyear.html

[Hoosier Red]

Michael Lewis was a scorer in high school. I do believe he led the state his senior year at over 30 ppg. He gets to IU and he forgets to shoot? Guyton was something else, he was a player.

Yeah I remember early on in their freshman years, it felt like they were in the opposite roles they ended up in.
Guyton seemed like the point guard who could see guys making cuts before they did. Lewis was the scorer. But for whatever reason Lewis never was able to score at a high level, and Guyton became the absolute focal point of the offense.

Of all the guys in the mid to late 90's though, he's probably not in the top 10 of guys I would be frustrated with how his career turned out. The 92-95 classes of guys were the bottom of the barrel. A who's who of talent unrealized(Charlie Miller), statistically good but still disappointing(Patterson) big tall stiffs(Mandeville, Eggars, Mujezinovich) and assorted transfers before during and after they stepped on campus.

[redsfanmia]

I disagree. Let me see.............Quinn Buckner, Scott May, Butch Carter, Isiah Thomas, Jim Thomas, Tony Brown, Dean Garrett, Keith Smart?????????

RMK's downfall was when guys from out of state weren't as good as the hype.....Andrae Patterson, Charlie Miller, Richard Mandeville, Jason Collier...etc.

But I will agree that IU doesn't need to go outside the state to find competitive talent.

Actually I should have said outside of the region, RMK recruited Ohio,Indiana and Illionis mostly occasionally going into Wisconsin.

[redsfanmia]

Michael Lewis was a scorer in high school. I do believe he led the state his senior year at over 30 ppg. He gets to IU and he forgets to shoot? Guyton was something else, he was a player.

Different roles, Lewis wasn't asked to be a big time scorer at IU.

[Assembly Hall]

Speaking of past recruiting classes, here they are. Read 'em and weep.

http://mypage.iu.edu/~dyeskie/iurecruitsbyyear.html

Great link!!!!!!!!!:thumbup:

[Assembly Hall]

Different roles, Lewis wasn't asked to be a big time scorer at IU.

Well, he sure as heck wasn't recruited to pass the ball. Knight lands a kid that scored over 2,000 points in high school then calls him into his office and says "Mike, we don't want you to shoot the ball"? LOL

I know he fell into a role, but I felt he didn't shoot the ball enough. I do believe he shot the ball at a 50% clip for the Hoosiers in his career.

[redsfanmia]

Well, he sure as heck wasn't recruited to pass the ball. Knight lands a kid that scored over 2,000 points in high school then calls him into his office and says "Mike, we don't want you to shoot the ball"? LOL

I know he fell into a role, but I felt he didn't shoot the ball enough. I do believe he shot the ball at a 50% clip for the Hoosiers in his career.

Most kids who play at big time colleges are scorers in high school, not everyone's skill set translates into being a huge scorer in college. Lewis had a good career at IU.

[Assembly Hall]

Most kids who play at big time colleges are scorers in high school, not everyone's skill set translates into being a huge scorer in college. Lewis had a good career at IU.


Really? Never made the connection!!!!! LOL 2,000 points in Indiana High School Basketball is a rare commodity. He could flat out shoot it, and did for his entire high school career. Think about it, 20 games a year is the norm. What does the math come up to?

I get the translation part all too well. I am just saying that I scratched my head about Lewis not scoring. I didn't knock his career at IU and never intended to.

[redsfanmia]

Really? Never made the connection!!!!! LOL 2,000 points in Indiana High School Basketball is a rare commodity. He could flat out shoot it, and did for his entire high school career. Think about it, 20 games a year is the norm. What does the math come up to?

I get the translation part all too well. I am just saying that I scratched my head about Lewis not scoring. I didn't knock his career at IU and never intended to.

He was like 6'1" and wasn't the quickest guy in the world. Jeff Olliphant scored a ton in high school too, Delray Brooks was unstoppable in high school but could not score at IU, it happens. One thing I liked about Lewis was he would go back at RMK, didn't see that often.

[Assembly Hall]

What an entertaining game to watch last night! Am I wrong in thinking that sealed an NIT bid?

[Hillsdale87]

Of course last night's game is the one I decide to skip and watch at home... Most fun game of the year. IU morphed from a team that plays great defense and can't score to a team that can't miss or play defense. Obviously it would be nice to see them combine offense and defense, but I'd much rather watch a game in the 80s than a game in the 50s.

Very happy for Sheehey. This has been a rough season as a team, but especially for him. A lot was expected of him and he hasn't really delivered. But last night he was a star. It was also good to see Hollowell contribute some real minutes. His stat line wasn't great, but just being consistently aggressive is good to see.

[SunDeck]

I am now convinced that the point of Tom Crean and Co. is to drive the IU fanbase nuts.

[Hoosier Red]

I am now convinced that the point of Tom Crean and Co. is to drive the IU fanbase nuts.

It's not a drive. It's a short putt. ;)

I keep thinking of the Godfather.
"Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in."

[Razor Shines]

It's not a drive. It's a short putt. ;)

I keep thinking of the Godfather.
"Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in."

All we gotta do is win the B1G Tourney and we're in...then anything can happen. :laugh:

[gilpdawg]

All we gotta do is win the B1G Tourney and we're in...then anything can happen. :laugh:

I think they can get in without winning the tourney.... they just have to beat both Michigan and Ohio State. Not likely, but not impossible.

[Revering4Blue]

I think they can get in without winning the tourney.... they just have to beat both Michigan and Ohio State. Not likely, but not impossible.

Either that or win two of the next three -- especially if they win in Ann Arbor -- and win two games in the B1G tournament.

[Revering4Blue]

He was like 6'1" and wasn't the quickest guy in the world. Jeff Olliphant scored a ton in high school too, Delray Brooks was unstoppable in high school but could not score at IU, it happens. One thing I liked about Lewis was he would go back at RMK, didn't see that often.
IIRC, Delray's problems stemmed as much from an inability to play man-to-man defense at all than anything.

Following a Sweet Sixteen upset of then-top ranked, star-studded UNC by Alford and the kiddie corps and unexpected appearance in the Elite 8 in '84, Delray Brooks was supposed to be the player to possibly push the Hoosiers over the top. Alas, as we all know, that didn't happen, as the '85 team was a major disappointment -- IMO, the most disappointing IU season given the expectations in my lifetime -- for several reasons.

One another prominent side memory involving Delray Brooks: Nobody gave anyone a chance against his Michigan City Rogers HS school, but Assembly Hall's Warsaw Tigers pulled it off, winning the '84 State Championship, which I remember well because it was during my HS sophomore year that my school, which no longer exists, fell to Warsaw in the Semi-State that year.

[dubc47834]

Either that or win two of the next three -- especially if they win in Ann Arbor -- and win two games in the B1G tournament.

I think they have to win the final 3 games to have a chance, wouldn't hurt to win a B10 tourney game or 2. I don't see it happening, but its possible I guess.

[Assembly Hall]

IIRC, Delray's problems stemmed as much from an inability to play man-to-man defense at all than anything.

Following a Sweet Sixteen upset of then-top ranked, star-studded UNC by Alford and the kiddie corps and unexpected appearance in the Elite 8 in '84, Delray Brooks was supposed to be the player to possibly push the Hoosiers over the top. Alas, as we all know, that didn't happen, as the '85 team was a major disappointment -- IMO, the most disappointing IU season given the expectations in my lifetime -- for several reasons.

One another prominent side memory involving Delray Brooks: Nobody gave anyone a chance against his Michigan City Rogers HS school, but Assembly Hall's Warsaw Tigers pulled it off, winning the '84 State Championship, which I remember well because it was during my HS sophomore year that my school, which no longer exists, fell to Warsaw in the Semi-State that year.

I completely agree on the '84-'85 team. They actually went into Ann Arbor and spanked the Wolverines by I believe 30 points in their first B1G game of that year. IU was ranked in the Top Ten and everything seemed right. At the end of the year Michigan was ranked #2 and the Hoosiers ended up with a NIT bid. Just pitiful.

BTW Blue, I remember your Elmhurst Trojans well!:thumbup:

[Assembly Hall]

I think they have to win the final 3 games to have a chance, wouldn't hurt to win a B10 tourney game or 2. I don't see it happening, but its possible I guess.

It would be great to win all three. But winning 2 of 3 IMO puts them squarely on the bubble seeing as who their opponents are.

How big is that Penn State loss now?

[dubc47834]

It would be great to win all three. But winning 2 of 3 IMO puts them squarely on the bubble seeing as who their opponents are.

How big is that Penn State loss now?

HUGE!!!!!! I dont see it happening, but it could be the loss that keeps IU out of the tourney!!!

[Assembly Hall]

HUGE!!!!!! I dont see it happening, but it could be the loss that keeps IU out of the tourney!!!

Very well might be. It is the one that got away. But the egg they laid at home against Northwestern doesn't help either. At the time the Illinois loss didn't look bad...but now it does, IU should have won that one. To be honest, they should be 9-6 right now instead of 6-9. That would translate into a 19-9 overall record and a lock in the tournament. Just pitiful.

[Revering4Blue]

At this point, barring conference tournament results, it is highly doubtful that any school from the state of Indiana qualifies for the NCAA tourney.

That's unheard of.

[redsfanmia]

At this point, barring conference tournament results, it is highly doubtful that any school from the state of Indiana qualifies for the NCAA tourney.

That's unheard of.

It last happened in 2005 and the year before only Valpo went to the tourney.

[Assembly Hall]

He was like 6'1" and wasn't the quickest guy in the world.

And what was Steve Alford?